ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Gordon Brinton on January 06, 2017, 01:52:30 pm

Title: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Gordon Brinton on January 06, 2017, 01:52:30 pm
This kind of goes against everything I've learned. (Names have been blurred to protect the innocent.)
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 06, 2017, 01:58:45 pm
A lot of rats gave up their lives in order to make those speakers
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Dave Dermont on January 06, 2017, 02:04:27 pm
This kind of goes against everything I've learned. (Names have been blurred to protect the innocent.)

Is that all EV stuff?
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Gordon Brinton on January 06, 2017, 02:06:50 pm
Is that all EV stuff?
I don't know. I wasn't there. But it sure looks like it.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Gordon Brinton on January 06, 2017, 02:09:53 pm
My first post was referring to the likelihood of comb filtering.
...and maybe power alley.
...and maybe a few safety issues.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Dave Dermont on January 06, 2017, 02:27:09 pm
My first post was referring to the likelihood of comb filtering.
...and maybe power alley.
...and maybe a few safety issues.

There are certainly a number of issues.

I worry more about safety issues than the comb filtering. Bad sound has never killed anyone.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 06, 2017, 02:34:31 pm
This kind of goes against everything I've learned. (Names have been blurred to protect the innocent.)

If one of those blurred out names is the name of the sound company - then not so innocent?

Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 06, 2017, 02:41:37 pm
There are certainly a number of issues.

I worry more about safety issues than the comb filtering. Bad sound has never killed anyone.

Good one.

I like the way the end speakers are hanging off the edge...yikes
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Rick Earl on January 06, 2017, 02:51:16 pm
Good one.

I like the way the end speakers are hanging off the edge...yikes

Forget the PA, look at the roof.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Thomas Le on January 06, 2017, 03:01:52 pm
Looks like an old-school EV rig.

Tops looks like EV SH1502 ER which has 110x46 dispersion so "lots 'o' comb filtering" there.
Subs look to be possible EV T-18.
And if it's a whole EV rig, monitors could be EV FM1202 ER.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Cailen Waddell on January 06, 2017, 04:09:46 pm
Forget the PA, look at the roof.

This -  the roof is deadly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Don T. Williams on January 06, 2017, 04:12:18 pm
I have one customer (and a few ex-customers) that prefer a rig that looks that way.  My current rig is "too small" and "doesn't look powerful enough" for these customers even though I have more than quadrupled the wattage that my EV Xi rig had.

The Xi was effecient, and when flown or stacked correctly, there wasn't much comb filtering, but I don't miss moving and stacking 250 lb. boxes 3 and 4 high!
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Tom Burgess on January 06, 2017, 04:20:53 pm
My first post was referring to the likelihood of comb filtering.
At this level of density maybe it should be referred to as brush filtering.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Rick Powell on January 06, 2017, 04:40:14 pm
If they had just doubled the number of tops and subs, they would've been OK.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 06, 2017, 04:49:38 pm
This -  the roof is deadly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, It's safe, because it's tied to the speaker piles!
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 06, 2017, 04:53:24 pm
Forget the PA, look at the roof.

That was pretty obvious. Kinda went without saying
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 07, 2017, 10:22:33 am
As much as we're all sitting here, "How can this un-named company feel OK doing this," part of the onus is on the client to be specific as to their expectations. Now, 85% chance they just cared about budget and these folks were the lowest price, but we all know and understand that any legitimate event is going to have standards in their RFP as to types and coverage of PA, quality and safety of structures; e.g. "No Genie-style roofs" and so on.

In other words, the event probably doesn't give a damn, and that's the sad part of this situation. S'why you (an event) hire a production manager that "gets it."

-Ray
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 07, 2017, 11:01:27 am
As much as we're all sitting here, "How can this un-named company feel OK doing this," part of the onus is on the client to be specific as to their expectations. Now, 85% chance they just cared about budget
ACTUALLY-I have done gigs in which the promoters MOST IMPORTANT concern was the NUMBER OF CABINETS USED.

Not the quality-type-he insisted on NUMBERS.

This was a promoter that I had worked with many times at the same venue-doing the same type music etc with a much smaller rig and it was fine.

So I actually took out dummy empty, PA cabinets (actually twice as many as I normally used).

He was happy because it "looked louder".

I did plug cables into them so they looked like they were being used.

I did charge more :)

I have a video of it somewhere I need to find.

Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Mike Monte on January 07, 2017, 11:59:50 am
ACTUALLY-I have done gigs in which the promoters MOST IMPORTANT concern was the NUMBER OF CABINETS USED.

Not the quality-type-he insisted on NUMBERS.

This was a promoter that I had worked with many times at the same venue-doing the same type music etc with a much smaller rig and it was fine.

So I actually took out dummy empty, PA cabinets (actually twice as many as I normally used).

He was happy because it "looked louder".


I did plug cables into them so they looked like they were being used.

I did charge more :)

I have a video of it somewhere I need to find.

I have also brought out extra cabs (2 over 2) per side only to use 1 over 1 per side.
It worked fine and no one could tell that there were unused cabs.

Hey, if the promoter wants to pay for "stuff" why not give him what he wants?
He's writing the check.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get SUED!
Post by: brian maddox on January 07, 2017, 02:48:25 pm
Fixed your subject line   :) :)
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 07, 2017, 03:00:45 pm
This -  the roof is deadly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That thing would stand about 20 seconds in a good Kansas wind.  Yikes.

The PA?  Oy.  At least it only kills your sensibilities.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Jay Marr on January 07, 2017, 03:40:56 pm
I'm not lighting guru....but why are all the cans at the exact same angle?
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 07, 2017, 03:53:38 pm
Looks like one of those rigs that would start to sound better as you unplugged every second cab!
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 07, 2017, 03:58:22 pm
I'm not lighting guru....but why are all the cans at the exact same angle?
Probably the same reason the PA is the way it is. 
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on January 07, 2017, 04:51:08 pm
Check out that truck. And the lettering on that sign. Surely this can't be recent.

And don't call me Shirley ;)
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 07, 2017, 04:53:22 pm
Probably the same reason the PA is the way it is.
Let's not even think about the roof (sail) on lifts.
The real problem here is the fact that the gig will probably go OK and, barring any heavy weather to challenge the roof, be considered a success. (sigh  ::))
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 07, 2017, 09:33:14 pm
I'm not lighting guru....but why are all the cans at the exact same angle?

The funny thing is that I don't see any cables going up to any of that.  Maybe it just hasn't been wired yet, but I usually try to power and test all my fixtures before the trusses go up.  This is bringing back terrible memories of that Genie Lift Stage Roof I dealt with back in November.  At least this one isn't set up in a sand pit! 
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on January 08, 2017, 12:21:45 am
The funny thing is that I don't see any cables going up to any of that.  Maybe it just hasn't been wired yet, but I usually try to power and test all my fixtures before the trusses go up.  This is bringing back terrible memories of that Genie Lift Stage Roof I dealt with back in November.  At least this one isn't set up in a sand pit!

There are yellow cable-like things running vertically up the Genie lifts, both upstage and downstage. I doubt it is braided polypropylene rope (a/k/a boating rope); at least I hope it isn't.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Jeff Lelko on January 08, 2017, 11:11:38 am
There are yellow cable-like things running vertically up the Genie lifts, both upstage and downstage. I doubt it is braided polypropylene rope (a/k/a boating rope); at least I hope it isn't.

I see it now.  I think the yellow straps are just there for support (?), but it looks like all the light power is running along the downstage left lift - a whole bunch of orange extension cords!
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Chris Hindle on January 08, 2017, 11:43:44 am
Is that all EV stuff?
Yup. from 30 years ago.......
I ihave a catalog from 1987.......
SH1502ER "tops"
SH1800 "subs" or a variant thereof. 1800's had the cone showing, not the basket.
Peavey 1545 wedges.

Now, the subs in the catalog have no grill cloth, but that could be marketing for the catalog, or added later by the user.
30 years ago, I don't even remember which truck I was driving !
Chris.   
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Craig Leerman on January 08, 2017, 02:08:49 pm
Why blur the name?  If they were proud enough to put their name on it in public, no need to remove the name

Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Cailen Waddell on January 08, 2017, 02:09:37 pm
Why blur the name?  If they were proud enough to put their name on it in public, no need to remove the name

Exactly.  I want to know who we should run away from.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 08, 2017, 04:20:25 pm
Exactly.  I want to know who we should run away from.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Or go visit out of curiosity? 
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 08, 2017, 04:32:28 pm
Or go visit out of curiosity?

Yep. Sometimes you just have to see the train wreck.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Bob Cap on January 08, 2017, 05:49:26 pm
You know guys when I started in this business in 1971....

That would have been a pretty great looking system.

Forget what it sounded like.

I remember Geini towers we put together in sections and lifted into position...racks of Fresnels...

My first big system was all homebuilt (custom built), RCA 7 foot folded horn bass cabinets...single 15" mid boxes ala JBL 4560...2" radial horns and 1" horns on top.

Crown DC300 power amps.....

By those standards this rig looks pretty good...:)

Bob Cap
Advanced Audio Inc.
Gilbert, MN
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Greg Hershey on January 08, 2017, 06:12:16 pm
You know guys when I started in this business in 1971....

That would have been a pretty great looking system.

Forget what it sounded like.

I remember Geini towers we put together in sections and lifted into position...racks of Fresnels...

My first big system was all homebuilt (custom built), RCA 7 foot folded horn bass cabinets...single 15" mid boxes ala JBL 4560...2" radial horns and 1" horns on top.

Crown DC300 power amps.....

By those standards this rig looks pretty good...:)

Bob Cap
Advanced Audio Inc.
Gilbert, MN


Sounds exactly like my first system!  We had some A7's in the mix also. 
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 08, 2017, 06:29:12 pm

Sounds exactly like my first system!  We had some A7's in the mix also.

My "very first" PA was 2 full range cabinets that had 2x12" and a 4x10" horn  (all radio shack drivers), a 4 channel mixer (volume bass and treble) I built and a single 100 watt amp I built.

I grew from that.

The largest it got using the "separate cabinet approach" is shown below.  After this photo was taken I started using the "one box" approach.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on January 08, 2017, 06:31:59 pm
So thoughts on fixing this system? This is my thought. Have the sub pack set in  gradule, C shape to give the tops set on them good coverage. With 9 tops a side available put 3 of these on top of the sub's set on their sides NOT plugged in. On top of them have three more put on upright the normal way. The last 3 put on top of those but upside down so the horns output couples (somewhat) Now run this as a dual PA. Bottom plugged in layer have instruments/vocal/instruments. The top upside down layer have vocal/instruments/vocal. With 2 quality amps that will run down to 2 ohms you can have 1 amp per side. Each amp channel running 3 boxes. Of course everything correctly secured!!! Not like the single strap used in the picture!

As far as using the unplugged boxes if enough amps/crossover channels are available a person could set this up as 2 way, 3 way, or even 4 way.

I realize some would fix it by burning it but if this was all you had, for conversation sake, how would you set it up?

Douglas R. Allen

Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 08, 2017, 07:17:33 pm
So thoughts on fixing this system?
This may be against forum rules, but I will give it a shot.

Back in the 80s, I used to repair A LOT of these cabinets.

The weak point, BY FAR, is the HF driver.  The other problem was the crossover parts falling off of the board they were glued to and breaking the leads.

So "if it were me" and I had to use these cabinets, I would rewire them to be biamped.

This is for a couple of reasons.  First is to use a steeper slope on the crossover which would help a little bit in terms of power.

The other big reason for biamping (they are not "naturally biampable) is to be able to put a good limiter on the HF driver alone.

Biamping would remove the crossovers and the parts falling off from the "equation".

This is not great, but I would flip the top cabinets so the horns are closer together.  They are still to far apart for proper coupling, but closer than when stacked as shown.

I would try to avoid using the stacks side by side as shown.

I would NOT use cabinets that are not plugged into amplifiers.

The unterminated cabinets will actually cause a "suckout" of the active cabinets. 

Of course you might could put some stronger HF drivers in the cabinets.  That would help A LOT.

But it depends on "how far" you want to go.

Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 08, 2017, 08:41:44 pm
This system was home built late '70's/early '80's and is still in use today. In fact I'll be mixing for a band at a local festival in May. Still has the original JBL E120's in the mids.

He finally broke down and purchased an Si Compact after the Soundcraft K2 with many bad channels gave out.

It sounds about how you would expect. But this guy gets a lot of the jobs. Primarily because he is associated with the local music store.  And he is not cheap, just well known.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Cailen Waddell on January 08, 2017, 10:54:47 pm
This system was home built late '70's/early '80's and is still in use today. In fact I'll be mixing for a band at a local festival in May. Still has the original JBL E120's in the mids.

He finally broke down and purchased an Si Compact after the Soundcraft K2 with many bad channels gave out.

It sounds about how you would expect. But this guy gets a lot of the jobs. Primarily because he is associated with the local music store.  And he is not cheap, just well known.

That roof also looks dangerous.   Perhaps you may want to consider not being involved if it is outdoors. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Rick Powell on January 08, 2017, 11:31:52 pm
I would NOT use cabinets that are not plugged into amplifiers.

The unterminated cabinets will actually cause a "suckout" of the active cabinets. 

If they are just being used as "risers" to raise the other 6 cabinets, and set face down with no outward horn exposure, I think they could at least be useful pieces of furniture.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on January 09, 2017, 05:25:34 am
If they are just being used as "risers" to raise the other 6 cabinets, and set face down with no outward horn exposure, I think they could at least be useful pieces of furniture.

Using the unplugged ones as "risers" is what I had in mind. I guess if not used as part of a 3 or 4 way system then turning them face down would be a good idea. How would putting shorted 1/4 inch plugs into the input jacks work as far as controlling the "passive radiator" effect (I'm guessing these have 1/4 inch inputs)

Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2017, 07:21:50 am
Using the unplugged ones as "risers" is what I had in mind. I guess if not used as part of a 3 or 4 way system then turning them face down would be a good idea. How would putting shorted 1/4 inch plugs into the input jacks work as far as controlling the "passive radiator" effect (I'm guessing these have 1/4 inch inputs)

Douglas R. Allen
Yes shorting the inputs is better than hooking to an amp-

If they were to be used as risers, then the whole front would need to be sealed off.

Seems like a expensive heavy "riser".

And I bet you would have a VERY HARD TIME convincing them to use them that way.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Greg Percy on January 09, 2017, 09:01:33 am
It's nice because they have one speaker for each person in the crowd...almost
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 09, 2017, 10:08:31 am
That roof also looks dangerous.   Perhaps you may want to consider not being involved if it is outdoors. 
Roof, or the DSL lighting- well, the entire downstage lighting. But on the DSL side there's a stick of truss that's....... doing nothing? Not sure what's holding it in place. Or why it's even there...

-Ray
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 09, 2017, 10:29:01 am
Roof, or the DSL lighting- well, the entire downstage lighting. But on the DSL side there's a stick of truss that's....... doing nothing? Not sure what's holding it in place. Or why it's even there...

-Ray

There's 2 silver sticks and one black stick of triangle truss holding the 6bars. You can't hardly see the black stick on stage right.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 09, 2017, 10:38:28 am
So thoughts on fixing this system? *snip*

I realize some would fix it by burning it but if this was all you had, for conversation sake, how would you set it up?

Douglas R. Allen

As Ivan has said, the horn drivers were crossed way too low and too shallow for these things to handle any power (although they did sound pretty good).

Biamp the rig. Put as steep a slope as possible on the HF and move that XO point up to maybe 2k-ish. Limit it well.

Stack a top box the "regular" way then flip one HF down on top of it. HF to HF and facing the same direction will be about as good as it gets with these boxes.

If needed you could put another HFup/HFdown pair on top of the first maybe. Use the lower pair for the front rows. Have it 3 to 6 db lower in level than the upper pair which will be used for the majority of the crowd. Biamping each pair you'll be able to compensate the lower boxes with more Hi end that's needed because all the 15's will be working together.

That would give you 4 per side and the least amount of interaction possible from these boxes.

The Subs (which are T18's btw) would need to be piled up together and treated with kid gloves. They like to blow up whenever a gnat farts somewhere close to an open mic.... damhik...
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 09, 2017, 10:50:03 am
Somewhere an HVAC contractor is missing his lifts.

I'm sure the rig now sounds "amazing" because a DRPA is on front end.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Robert Healey on January 09, 2017, 04:32:21 pm
The weak point, BY FAR, is the HF driver.  The other problem was the crossover parts falling off of the board they were glued to and breaking the leads.

So "if it were me" and I had to use these cabinets, I would rewire them to be biamped.

This is for a couple of reasons.  First is to use a steeper slope on the crossover which would help a little bit in terms of power.

The other big reason for biamping (they are not "naturally biampable) is to be able to put a good limiter on the HF driver alone.

Biamping would remove the crossovers and the parts falling off from the "equation".

I put together a pair of old EV SH15-2 speakers from empty boxes and parts I had sitting around. A friend was looking for a budget band practice system. I used a DH2 HF driver (DH3s were used in the original) crossed over at 1600 to a DL15x LF driver (Original "EVG-15"), biamped it with a EV XEQ-2 crossover, and used a Crown D150 amp. I like the horn, and the whole package sounds pretty good!
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Bob Cap on January 10, 2017, 08:59:24 am

My "very first" PA was 2 full range cabinets that had 2x12" and a 4x10" horn  (all radio shack drivers), a 4 channel mixer (volume bass and treble) I built and a single 100 watt amp I built.

I grew from that.

The largest it got using the "separate cabinet approach" is shown below.  After this photo was taken I started using the "one box" approach.

Looks like a lot of Bob Heil gear?
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: nickyburnell on February 12, 2017, 05:03:47 pm
ACTUALLY-I have done gigs in which the promoters MOST IMPORTANT concern was the NUMBER OF CABINETS USED.

Not the quality-type-he insisted on NUMBERS.

This was a promoter that I had worked with many times at the same venue-doing the same type music etc with a much smaller rig and it was fine.

So I actually took out dummy empty, PA cabinets (actually twice as many as I normally used).

He was happy because it "looked louder".

I did plug cables into them so they looked like they were being used.

I did charge more :)

I have a video of it somewhere I need to find.

Back in the 70's in the UK this was prevalent. Amps and drivers were expensive and, "promoters" used to have two or three, "sounds" doing soul nights. This became a competition and empty boxes were used. I could actually name two, but wont obviously.  Fun times, piles of 4520's and 4560's
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 12, 2017, 05:56:12 pm
Looks like a lot of Bob Heil gear?
Those were cabinets I built.

I liked his color scheme-so I "borrowed" it.
Title: Re: Some companies just want to get big.
Post by: Mike Sullivan on February 13, 2017, 06:43:47 pm
I almost want to say that I know who this is, I've seen their photos and they're not more than a few hours from me if memory serves me right.  I can't remember the name and won't disclose it, of course, but yeah...