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Title: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Eric Frantz on December 18, 2016, 12:09:53 am
I live in a small town in rural Wisconsin and some friends from the local hockey program asked me for some help on installing an affordable sound system. They got a bid from a contractor for $10,000+ but have nowhere near that much money in their budget.  They said somewhere around $2500 might be more realistic.  We set up a pair of (hold the laughter) Active Mackie Thump 15s that we use for our local music in the park.  The pair was set up about 15 feet above the penalty box aimed out across the ice towards the 2 bleacher sections  (might hold 500 people total).  I know these speakers aren't high end stuff, but they actually sounded well on the rink and in the bleachers and were plenty loud.  I know ice arenas present a challenging acoustical environment, but with the foam ceiling tiles in there its not too shabby.  They currently have 4 cgm speakers (specs unknown) set up right in front of the bleachers and a soundtech powered mixer w/ about 300 watts @2 ohms mono output.  The stuff is really old, wore out and extremely rough on the ears to listen too!  Can't hear them on the rink either.

I'm a novice sound guy at best.  I'd like to believe I know a few things but fully admit I have much to learn.  Always reading articles & reviews to try and learn because i care about how music sounds.  I stumbled upon this website when reviewing Octosound speakers.  I figured this looks like a good place to get some legitimate advice.  Before I ask a bunch of questions and waste anyone's time, I just need one thing answered.  Is it okay to use powered speakers in an ice arena or will the heat inside from the amp cause condensation inside and ruin them?  I've heard a few people say it's okay.  The guy at Sweetwater says it's okay but I know he just wants to make a sale!  Any help here would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks much!
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 18, 2016, 12:24:59 am
I live in a small town in rural Wisconsin and some friends from the local hockey program asked me for some help on installing an affordable sound system. They got a bid from a contractor for $10,000+ but have nowhere near that much money in their budget.  They said somewhere around $2500 might be more realistic.  We set up a pair of (hold the laughter) Active Mackie Thump 15s that we use for our local music in the park.  The pair was set up about 15 feet above the penalty box aimed out across the ice towards the 2 bleacher sections  (might hold 500 people total).  I know these speakers aren't high end stuff, but they actually sounded well on the rink and in the bleachers and were plenty loud.  I know ice arenas present a challenging acoustical environment, but with the foam ceiling tiles in there its not too shabby.  They currently have 4 cgm speakers (specs unknown) set up right in front of the bleachers and a soundtech powered mixer w/ about 300 watts @2 ohms mono output.  The stuff is really old, wore out and extremely rough on the ears to listen too!  Can't hear them on the rink either.

I'm a novice sound guy at best.  I'd like to believe I know a few things but fully admit I have much to learn.  Always reading articles & reviews to try and learn because i care about how music sounds.  I stumbled upon this website when reviewing Octosound speakers.  I figured this looks like a good place to get some legitimate advice.  Before I ask a bunch of questions and waste anyone's time, I just need one thing answered.  Is it okay to use powered speakers in an ice arena or will the heat inside from the amp cause condensation inside and ruin them?  I've heard a few people say it's okay.  The guy at Sweetwater says it's okay but I know he just wants to make a sale!  Any help here would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks much!


I just did a search, your in Neenah?  I have an office there.


What type of material (content) are you going to play?  Are you looking to have the high quality "bump" music that is so popular today in arenas and ball parks?


Our baseball stadium for the AAA team installed these slick subs that looked like giant bazooka tubes (the car audio product).  It is fun to have the low end energy in the stands.  They just used a ton of small speakers (I think RH) so to keep the level low.  That helps a lot in challenging spaces.


Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Eric Frantz on December 18, 2016, 12:45:09 am
I'm on the other side of the state.  What exactly are you referring to when you say 'what kind of materials am I looking to send?'
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 18, 2016, 05:28:41 am
I'm on the other side of the state.  What exactly are you referring to when you say 'what kind of materials am I looking to send?'

I changed send to play.  I meant "send to the speakers" but I was not clear.  Do you want announcements that are clear, light music, impactful bump music or do you intend to use the facility for other purposes?  What are your goals for this upgrade?
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Eric Frantz on December 18, 2016, 05:45:31 am
I changed send to play.  I meant "send to the speakers" but I was not clear.  Do you want announcements that are clear, light music, impactful bump music or do you intend to use the facility for other purposes?  What are your goals for this upgrade?

OK, I thought that's what you meant.  Long day at work and cough medicine was fogging my brain! Pretty much just play music off mp3 player and announcing.  Not really for live music or anything.  We used the arena for a concert last year and had 4 of the Thump 15s and 2 Thump subs amd it was plenty loud. 

I was just wondering if powered speakers are okay to use consistently in the cold.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Mike Sokol on December 18, 2016, 08:11:34 am
I was just wondering if powered speakers are okay to use consistently in the cold.

If the key question is about condensation, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about as long as the temp of the gear and the room stays consistent. Condensation occurs when you have a warm room with lots of humidity, and you take in an object with a cold temp below the dew point. Then the moisture in the air condenses on the object. So if you have the speakers in a cold van, then take them into a warm room, there will be a lot of moisture condensing on the circuit boards, etc... You see the same thing if you wear glasses and go from the cold outside into a warm room. So if your speakers are always in this cold room, there won't be condensation. When you power them up the circuity will start to warm up and there won't be condensation since the circuit boards will be warmer (not colder) than the air. And as they cool back down they'll never be colder than the surrounding atmosphere, so no condensation.

However, you possibly need to worry a little about the speaker suspension in a very cold room. That is, the flex material of the surround can be stiff and brittle in the cold, so I've always "warmed up" any speaker (passive or active) with moderate level background music without a lot of bass speaker excursion for may be 30 minutes before putting kick drum through the system. I do this because I shredded the surrounds on a few bass speakers decades ago at an outside ski event. Maybe new speaker materials are more tolerant of sub-zero temps, but it wouldn't hurt to warm up everything slowly with some background music rather than just putting the gas to the system on startup. 
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 18, 2016, 12:36:37 pm
In a room like that, loud is not that important.

CLARITY is what you need.

Some people are impressed by simple loudness.  But I bet most of the audience in that space are more concerned with clarity.

It may be loud, but can you understand it?

If not-then what good is it?

Spraying sound everywhere is not a good idea.

You gave your budget-good for you.

What all does it need to include?

I suspect speakers-amps-mixer-wiring-install-tuning etc.

With a low budget-don't expect great results.

The general rule for a space like that-basket ball rooms etc, the best approach is to use more speakers that are closer to the people and have pattern control to keep the energy on the audience instead of spraying it on the surfaces that you don't want to.

The problem with this approach is that speakers that have real pattern control cost more.  And using more speakers will drive up the install costs.

But the RESULTS are worth it.

It is easy to make a loud sound.  Making a GOOD-usable loud sound is a totally different story and need a different approach.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Eric Frantz on December 18, 2016, 10:08:29 pm
If the key question is about condensation, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about as long as the temp of the gear and the room stays consistent. Condensation occurs when you have a warm room with lots of humidity, and you take in an object with a cold temp below the dew point. The the moisture in the air condenses on the object. So if you have the speakers in a cold van, then take them into a warm room, there will be a lot of moisture condensing on the circuit boards, etc... You see the same thing if you wear glasses and go from the cold outside into a warm room. So if your speakers are always in this cold room, there won't be condensation. When you power them up the circuity will start to warm up and there won't be condensation since the circuit boards will be warmer (not colder) than the air. And as they cool back down they'll never be colder than the surrounding atmosphere, so no condensation.

However, you possibly need to worry a little about the speaker suspension in a very cold room. That is, the flex material of the surround can be stiff and brittle in the cold, so I've always "warmed up" any speaker (passive or active) with moderate level background music without a lot of bass speaker excursion for may be 30 minutes before putting kick drum through the system. I do this because I shredded the surrounds on a few bass speakers decades ago at an outside ski event. Maybe new speaker materials are more tolerant of sub-zero temps, but it wouldn't hurt to warm up everything slowly with some background music rather than just putting the gas to the system on startup.

I guess that all makes sense.  Really wanted to use powered speakers because I felt we could get more for the money.  Was looking in the $500-$1000 range per speaker.  Seems the ones with fly points are either polypropylene or birch boxes.  Not sure how the constant cold would ultimately affect the sound.  Makes sense to warm them up a bit first with every use.  Kinda like my car stereo at -15 degrees this morning.  Thanks for the feedback Mike!
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Eric Frantz on December 18, 2016, 10:47:53 pm
In a room like that, loud is not that important.

CLARITY is what you need.

Some people are impressed by simple loudness.  But I bet most of the audience in that space are more concerned with clarity.

It may be loud, but can you understand it?

If not-then what good is it?

Spraying sound everywhere is not a good idea.

You gave your budget-good for you.

What all does it need to include?

I suspect speakers-amps-mixer-wiring-install-tuning etc.

With a low budget-don't expect great results.

The general rule for a space like that-basket ball rooms etc, the best approach is to use more speakers that are closer to the people and have pattern control to keep the energy on the audience instead of spraying it on the surfaces that you don't want to.

The problem with this approach is that speakers that have real pattern control cost more.  And using more speakers will drive up the install costs.

But the RESULTS are worth it.

It is easy to make a loud sound.  Making a GOOD-usable loud sound is a totally different story and need a different approach.

Hi Ivan.  I know that Mackie Thump 15s aren't the king of clarity, but they were way better than the crap they currently have and for do just fine for about 99% of the skaters and crowd! Unfortunately, they don't have fly points.  So I was looking into a pair of any of the following within the $500-$1000 range.  I see a few that are bi amped and have the class AB amps for the highs.  That's what our Thumps have and we liked the sound from them better than QSC K series when we put them side by side.  From my readings, I hear that this is supposedly better for clean, crisp and clear high frequencies.  The JBL's appear to have wifi control so we can use a tablet to monkey with the dsp and volume.......looked pretty handy.  The PreSonus and Line 6 speakers seem like they would have perhaps the best clarity of any of these choices.  I don't know much about Turbosound but they look decent.  Carvin seems like they offer a lot of speaker for the money.  Yamaha always seems to put out a good product.  Anyways,I know we all have opinions, but any feedback on which brand/product line might be best for an ice arena and why would be terrific.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EON615 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EON615)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SRM450v3 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SRM450v3)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Milan15 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Milan15)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Air15 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Air15)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DXR15 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DXR15)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SSL3T (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SSL3T)

http://carvinaudio.com/collections/trx-2000-series-monitors-mains-and-subwoofers/products/trx2115a-15-inch-2-way-2000w-active-main-monitor (http://carvinaudio.com/collections/trx-2000-series-monitors-mains-and-subwoofers/products/trx2115a-15-inch-2-way-2000w-active-main-monitor)

http://carvinaudio.com/collections/trx-2000-series-monitors-mains-and-subwoofers/products/trx2153a-15-inch-3-way-2500w-active-main-loudspeaker (http://carvinaudio.com/collections/trx-2000-series-monitors-mains-and-subwoofers/products/trx2153a-15-inch-3-way-2500w-active-main-loudspeaker)

Also was going to pick up a simple mixer to plug in mp3 and use a mic for announcing.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Mix8 (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Mix8)

Other than that, just the appropriate cables to wire the sound.  Not worried too much about a sub at this time.  That's something that could be picked up later on if money was available.  The Mackie Thumps we played seemed to carry enough bass throughout the rink without blowing us out.  We might dig out one of the Thump subs we have and set it up just for comparison to see what it sounds like.  All the electrical wiring and rigging would be done by a few of the hockey dads that are into skilled trades related to these areas.

The speakers would be hung, one over each player box areas.  This places them evenly near the 1/4 and 3/4 mark of the length of the building.  By pointing them straight across the rink and toward the bleachers, we are keeping most of the sound energy focused straight towards the 2 bleacher sections and minimizing bouncing sound off the ice/glass and the far ends of the arena.  At the top of each bleacher section, it's a metal wall about 15' to the roof.  We do have the option of putting some material there to helps soften the sound, such as some type of foam, sound curtain or homemade panels out of Roxul.  This would help to knock down some reverb/echo, but it isn't too bad as is.  The sound on the rink wasn't bad at all either with this speaker placement.  Plenty of volume and clarity, not much reverb or echo.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Nathan Riddle on December 19, 2016, 02:35:33 pm
Eric,

I aplaud you for looking for help.

I also advise you to look into having a production company help you out, perhaps Scotts.

If you really want to DIY this, then I would suggest the DXR/DSR or JBL SRX7/8 series. Plenty of talk/love for them here.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Eric Frantz on December 20, 2016, 12:46:40 am
Eric,

I aplaud you for looking for help.

I also advise you to look into having a production company help you out, perhaps Scotts.

If you really want to DIY this, then I would suggest the DXR/DSR or JBL SRX7/8 series. Plenty of talk/love for them here.

Thanks Nathan.  I'm guessing Scott would be more than they could afford!  There was a hockey board meeting tonight and we told them a range of $2000-$4000 is what they could expect.  They cringed at those numbers, although its substantially less than a bid a few years back.  Pretty conservative group of people!  Scott are you familiar with Tri-State sound in La Crosse?  I believe the owner used to work for JBL/Harmen.  I stopped in to bounce ideas off of them but they made it seem like we shouldn't even attempt to do it on our own and that they should come look at it.  I didn't appreciate their smug attitude!  They were of no help unfortunately, although they showed me a cool video where they demo a Danley Jericho!  Maybe for the local football field so I can here the game from my home 2 miles away! :)

Those speakers you suggest do look nice.  What are some reasons they get the love?  Over sound/clarity?  Build/components?  Warrenty? Etc.....
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 20, 2016, 03:38:50 am
Thanks Nathan.  I'm guessing Scott would be more than they could afford! 

Sorry I should have been really clear.  My production company is in Cleveland OH.

My other vocation has an office in Neenah and I happen to be in WI this week.  If they were close by was going to offer to stop by.

Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Nathan Riddle on December 20, 2016, 10:39:21 am
Thanks Nathan.  I'm guessing Scott would be more than they could afford!  There was a hockey board meeting tonight and we told them a range of $2000-$4000 is what they could expect.  They cringed at those numbers, although its substantially less than a bid a few years back.  Pretty conservative group of people!  Scott are you familiar with Tri-State sound in La Crosse?  I believe the owner used to work for JBL/Harmen.  I stopped in to bounce ideas off of them but they made it seem like we shouldn't even attempt to do it on our own and that they should come look at it.  I didn't appreciate their smug attitude!  They were of no help unfortunately, although they showed me a cool video where they demo a Danley Jericho!  Maybe for the local football field so I can here the game from my home 2 miles away! :)

Those speakers you suggest do look nice.  What are some reasons they get the love?  Over sound/clarity?  Build/components?  Warrenty? Etc.....

While the board might cringe at those numbers they are still very low to have a professional installation done. Yes, I realize that it is a larger commitment from the board, but the quality received will be leaps and bounds better.

I think that Tri-State Sound has your interests in mind, they, along with most of us here are running a business, yes, they need to make a profit. But we also genuienly want our customers to have the best possible in their price/market range and we consider a variety of considerations that you might (probably*) not be taking into account.

Furthermore, I agree with their ascertation that most people, organizations, etc. don't have the expertise to SAFELY fly speakers and/or competently install them. Not that a DIY solution isn't possible or even that there are some out there that could pull it off easily or with some work to within 80% of what a paid install might bring. But there are considerations with having a sound company do it such as insurance, proper flying hardware, correct system setup, aiming, speaker selection (which is a whole topic), modeling, acoustic treatment, etc.

With all that said,

I recomended the Yamaha/JBL's because in your price range and with you wanting to do it yourself and without dimensions and drawings to properly design/suggest a SYSTEM of components I can really only suggest a few products that are within your price range that I feel perform above what you have already sought out.

There are 10-50 threads floating around here from the past few years on the K12, DXR/DSR, 812,835, etc. Mi-level point and shoot boxes. They are all generally in the same vein and purity, but some are a bit better than others.

Here is the most recent: Pole Mount Thread (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,161835.0.html)

I haven't heard the Yamaha stuff, but from thread's like Debbie's and others I know they are performing better/well compared to the QSC K12 which I do have, thus they get a recommendation from me.

I have the JBL 835p which I consider to be an extremely well rounded, excellent speaker for its price. I know of no other that can perform as well for 1300 street price, though if you look you can find them for less.

My suggestion is the 812p as Debbie and others have used them and I would trust them to perform well for your situation in a point and shoot configuration with little actual system design or forethought.

Could you get better hiring a company? Probably. Would it be worth the extra $$? That's up to you and I'd wager you don't think it is worth it.

My thoughts.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Eric Frantz on December 20, 2016, 11:40:42 pm
Sorry I should have been really clear.  My production company is in Cleveland OH.

My other vocation has an office in Neenah and I happen to be in WI this week.  If they were close by was going to offer to stop by.

I'm about 2.5 hours wrest of Neenah. 
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on December 21, 2016, 10:28:13 am
FWIW, I heard some Mackie Thump 15 tops recently. They're probably fine for most pop music, but there is a serious dip in the 800Hz-2kHz range going on. I put one of my tops up next to it, and the difference was obvious. Playing Guns 'n' Roses, the Mackies made the guitars sit way way back (it sounded like a vox+drums+bass mix). Mine (DIY'd 2x10" + horn) had them right there where they should be. I was running the whole thing mono, just pushing up alternate faders.

With the 1" exit compression driver and fairly low-end 15" woofer, there's a serious gap in the midrange, IMO - the 1" driver won't get low enough at high levels to cross over lower down, and there aren't many 15" drivers that can run nicely past 1kHz.

That's not to say the Thump-15s are bad boxes. As I said, most pop music (which, lets face it, is often vox, bass, and drums) would likely sound fine. They make quite a lot of noise, and are very lightweight. I can see their uses. I can also see that something solid from JBL/Yamaha etc would probably out-do them quite comfortably.

Chris
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Eric Frantz on December 21, 2016, 04:04:25 pm
While the board might cringe at those numbers they are still very low to have a professional installation done. Yes, I realize that it is a larger commitment from the board, but the quality received will be leaps and bounds better.

I think that Tri-State Sound has your interests in mind, they, along with most of us here are running a business, yes, they need to make a profit. But we also genuienly want our customers to have the best possible in their price/market range and we consider a variety of considerations that you might (probably*) not be taking into account.

Furthermore, I agree with their ascertation that most people, organizations, etc. don't have the expertise to SAFELY fly speakers and/or competently install them. Not that a DIY solution isn't possible or even that there are some out there that could pull it off easily or with some work to within 80% of what a paid install might bring. But there are considerations with having a sound company do it such as insurance, proper flying hardware, correct system setup, aiming, speaker selection (which is a whole topic), modeling, acoustic treatment, etc.

With all that said,

I recomended the Yamaha/JBL's because in your price range and with you wanting to do it yourself and without dimensions and drawings to properly design/suggest a SYSTEM of components I can really only suggest a few products that are within your price range that I feel perform above what you have already sought out.

There are 10-50 threads floating around here from the past few years on the K12, DXR/DSR, 812,835, etc. Mi-level point and shoot boxes. They are all generally in the same vein and purity, but some are a bit better than others.

Here is the most recent: Pole Mount Thread (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,161835.0.html)

I haven't heard the Yamaha stuff, but from thread's like Debbie's and others I know they are performing better/well compared to the QSC K12 which I do have, thus they get a recommendation from me.

I have the JBL 835p which I consider to be an extremely well rounded, excellent speaker for its price. I know of no other that can perform as well for 1300 street price, though if you look you can find them for less.

My suggestion is the 812p as Debbie and others have used them and I would trust them to perform well for your situation in a point and shoot configuration with little actual system design or forethought.

Could you get better hiring a company? Probably. Would it be worth the extra $$? That's up to you and I'd wager you don't think it is worth it.

My thoughts.

Nathan I can see where the extra money to have a professional install a sound system is worth it.  I know the hockey program does too, but they have to try real hard on a regular basis to stretch the money out.  If it wasn't for a new building addition & new compressors for making ice, they probably would spring for the pros!  As for installation, the current system hasn't fallen yet in 10 years.  They just made the mistake in using the old crap that came over from the barn they used to play in.  I pointed out the issue of who's liable if they fall & hurt someone.  They said that's not a problem & that they are prepared to take on the liability.

I have been checking out those threads.....the DSR & SRX series look great.  As decent enough as our Thumps sounded, I know they have limitations & can see how these would be substantially better without breaking the bank.

Will the overall sound be as awesome as having pros do it, definitely not.  But will it be a hell if a lot better than what they have, most definitely yes.  I guess that's all they're after at this point in time.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Nathan Riddle on December 22, 2016, 01:35:39 pm
I have been checking out those threads.....the DSR & SRX series look great.  As decent enough as our Thumps sounded, I know they have limitations & can see how these would be substantially better without breaking the bank.

My vote for the SRX :)

Have fun, good luck! [be safe]
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 22, 2016, 02:54:54 pm
Quote
  I pointed out the issue of who's liable if they fall & hurt someone.  They said that's not a problem & that they are prepared to take on the liability.



You live long enough you hear everything.   Not sure if you care if these people like you or not but I would have shared my opinion of their ignorance, turned and walked out the door.


You can't "take on" negligence with prior knowledge.  Prior knowledge is a big concept in tort law.  Once you are made aware of the risk and don't mitigate it you move into the realm of criminal negligence.  It's called a "guilty mind" latin mens rea.  (sidenote I really enjoy the law, it's fascinating).

To give a personal anecdote I don't do production where I worship.  I notice the changes, I sat through Easter with the pastors mic screaming feedback.  Couple of times my wife reminded me why we were there.   I still don't sit anywhere near the speakers either although they are not flown over the audience pointing down as they were one Sunday when I walked in, that was their solution to feedback I guess they flew a couple of EV MI speakers about halfway down the hall.  Did the wood screw eyelet and True Value harware chain tossed over the bar joist method.


 [/size][size=78%]  [/size]



Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Robert Healey on December 22, 2016, 06:30:56 pm
I have been checking out those threads.....the DSR & SRX series look great.  As decent enough as our Thumps sounded, I know they have limitations & can see how these would be substantially better without breaking the bank.

For $4k equipment cost, I think you could do two One Systems 112/HTH with U-Brackets, a Crown CDi 2|600, and a Shure SCM262 mixer.

The One Systems products are designed for weather/extreme use use and are very robust. I would trust them much more than putting a powered speaker in an ice rink. They are also a much nicer sounding speaker than the Mackie Thumps.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on December 23, 2016, 10:54:32 am

You live long enough you hear everything.   Not sure if you care if these people like you or not but I would have shared my opinion of their ignorance, turned and walked out the door.


You can't "take on" negligence with prior knowledge.  Prior knowledge is a big concept in tort law.  Once you are made aware of the risk and don't mitigate it you move into the realm of criminal negligence.  It's called a "guilty mind" latin mens rea.  (sidenote I really enjoy the law, it's fascinating).



Does mitigation require hiring a profesional, or simply doing due diligence?

I understand  the whole liability thing-makes me cautious about what I do for hire especially in public spaces.  But as was pointed out in a thread regarding finding lifting eys, if I do the proper research and I wind up with a 32:1- or even 10:1 safety factor, how much real risk is there?  Yes, that means reading the instruction manual and following manufacturer's instructions.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 23, 2016, 11:34:27 am
  But as was pointed out in a thread regarding finding lifting eys, if I do the proper research and I wind up with a 32:1- or even 10:1 safety factor, how much real risk is there?  Yes, that means reading the instruction manual and following manufacturer's instructions.
But having a good safety ratio only part of the whole "system safe" equation.

HOW the parts are attached is often a bigger issue.

I am not aware of any manufacturer that shows or tells how to attach to building structure.

That is a whole different level of liability.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Eric Frantz on December 24, 2016, 06:07:41 pm
For $4k equipment cost, I think you could do two One Systems 112/HTH with U-Brackets, a Crown CDi 2|600, and a Shure SCM262 mixer.

The One Systems products are designed for weather/extreme use use and are very robust. I would trust them much more than putting a powered speaker in an ice rink. They are also a much nicer sounding speaker than the Mackie Thumps.

Nice find Robert.  Never came across those before.  Those might be in the running!  I'd feel better about hanging those vs. other speakers we've been discussing up till now.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Craig Hauber on December 27, 2016, 04:06:39 pm
For $4k equipment cost, I think you could do two One Systems 112/HTH with U-Brackets, a Crown CDi 2|600, and a Shure SCM262 mixer.

The One Systems products are designed for weather/extreme use use and are very robust. I would trust them much more than putting a powered speaker in an ice rink. They are also a much nicer sounding speaker than the Mackie Thumps.

In 2 whole pages of replies this is the first one actually recommending gear designed for installation, not M.I, band-dj gear!
There is no place for that type of equipment in a commercial environment and most of the time you're paying for features you won't need like bass extension, wide coverage, pole mounts and easy-carry handles - and not getting what you really need, such as voice-range clarity, controlled, defined coverage and rated rigging points.
Definitely look at the One Systems stuff, but also don't forget the Community R Series and W Series: http://www.communitypro.com/products/rseries
 (or the Samsung ;) equivalents: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/Installed-sound/#.WGLTJzuMCEI)

And you are much better off with the amplifiers separate from the speakers and preferably up and away from the ice surface.  Much easier to run single pair low-voltage type wiring to all the speakers vs having to hire an electrician to install outlets near every one -and then still having to run twisted pair line-level everywhere
(you certainly were going to do that anyways instead of extension cords running through areas with people wearing skates?)
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 27, 2016, 04:59:32 pm
FWIW, I heard some Mackie Thump 15 tops recently. They're probably fine for most pop music, but there is a serious dip in the 800Hz-2kHz range going on. I put one of my tops up next to it, and the difference was obvious. Playing Guns 'n' Roses, the Mackies made the guitars sit way way back (it sounded like a vox+drums+bass mix). Mine (DIY'd 2x10" + horn) had them right there where they should be. I was running the whole thing mono, just pushing up alternate faders.

With the 1" exit compression driver and fairly low-end 15" woofer, there's a serious gap in the midrange, IMO - the 1" driver won't get low enough at high levels to cross over lower down, and there aren't many 15" drivers that can run nicely past 1kHz.

That's not to say the Thump-15s are bad boxes. As I said, most pop music (which, lets face it, is often vox, bass, and drums) would likely sound fine. They make quite a lot of noise, and are very lightweight. I can see their uses. I can also see that something solid from JBL/Yamaha etc would probably out-do them quite comfortably.

Chris

Then I will say it.  The Mackie Thumps should be called "Thuds" for the sound they'll make when they land in the rubbish bin.  One of the worst (even for the money) speakers I've used.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 27, 2016, 05:54:58 pm

{big 'ol snip}

Will the overall sound be as awesome as having pros do it, definitely not.  But will it be a hell if a lot better than what they have, most definitely yes.  I guess that's all they're after at this point in time.

Being cheap and being thrifty is the difference between short-term and long-term.  In many installations the cost of getting the speakers and speaker wiring where they need to go exceeds the cost of the speakers.  Because of that you're often better off installing a better speaker system as replacing it later will likely involve a complete re-do with all the attendant expenses.  Incremental growth is not incrementally expensive...  That said, any of the suggested speakers will be a significant improvement over the Thumps they've been using.  I'm not familiar with One Systems so I'll leave others to comment.

Liability.  Yeah, sure, right.  Everyone says they're good to accept it - until something bad happens and the finger pointing begins.  The Board *really* needs to talk to their insurance company about this, as some things may be covered and other things, not.  And Eric, are there no lawyers in town?  If I were a board member (or advisor) I'd want to know what my potential liability could be and if I were covered by the Board or venue's insurance.

Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 27, 2016, 06:45:57 pm
Being cheap and being thrifty is the difference between short-term and long-term.  In many installations the cost of getting the speakers and speaker wiring where they need to go exceeds the cost of the speakers.
And therefore it is VERY IMPORTANT to do a PROPER DESIGN for the particular space.

SURE-one could "just stick some cheap speakers somewhere and they will make noise".

But there WILL be costs associated with this.

So later-when they figure the "cheap" system is not doing its job, they will most likely NOT ONLY need to purchase new loudspeakers/amps etc, but ALSO need new cable paths and wiring and new mounting points etc.

So when you look at the TOTAL costs, (especially if the system needs to be replaced), it is much less expensive to do it right the first time.

There is a BIG difference between simply sticking in some speakers and hoping they will make some kind of noise that will make the audience happy-and doing a proper DESIGN for the space.

Sure, you might get lucky and most people are simply not used to a decent quality sound system, so if it makes noise they will be "happy" :(

But when you have a properly designed system that provides good clarity to the audience, it is REAL hard to go back to simply "making noise"-no matter how loud it is.
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on December 28, 2016, 05:42:05 pm
There is an article (sorry, no link) that is called "Why churches buy three sound systems", or something very close to that. Your space is not an HOW, but I think it applies to your situation.
Title: Here's the link...
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 28, 2016, 05:57:16 pm
There is an article (sorry, no link) that is called "Why churches buy three sound systems", or something very close to that. Your space is not an HOW, but I think it applies to your situation.

Here's the link:  Jim Brown Paper (http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf)
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Charlie Tappa on January 05, 2017, 11:21:51 pm



Liability.  Yeah, sure, right.  Everyone says they're good to accept it - until something bad happens and the finger pointing begins.  The Board *really* needs to talk to their insurance company about this, as some things may be covered and other things, not.  And Eric, are there no lawyers in town?  If I were a board member (or advisor) I'd want to know what my potential liability could be and if I were covered by the Board or venue's insurance.

Beside accepting  the civil and criminal liability (yeah right)  you should ask which one of the "board members' is going to be the one to admit to little Johnny Smiths mother that he or she authorized  the flying of the speaker that fell and killed him. and that the speaker was suspended  by an unqualified entity in order to save a few bucks.   Hanging heavy objects over peoples heads is serious business,  stuff happens and people get hurt or die when it's done wrong.   As has been said many times before,  everyone has 2 jobs,  the one that pays their bills and being the "sound guy".   
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 06, 2017, 12:31:02 pm
Beside accepting  the civil and criminal liability (yeah right)  you should ask which one of the "board members' is going to be the one to admit to little Johnny Smiths mother that he or she authorized  the flying of the speaker that fell and killed him. and that the speaker was suspended  by an unqualified entity in order to save a few bucks.   Hanging heavy objects over peoples heads is serious business,  stuff happens and people get hurt or die when it's done wrong.   As has been said many times before,  everyone has 2 jobs,  the one that pays their bills and being the "sound guy".
EXACTLY!

And when a lawyer finds out about them being advised not to do it, and that "they" were willing to accept ALL the liability-OH BOY will they have a field day with "little Johnnys" parents.

You KNEW-and you did it ANYWAY????

Well THAT is gonna cost you------------------
Title: Re: Looking for friendly advice on Ice Arena install.
Post by: Jason Lavoie on January 27, 2017, 09:40:05 pm
I live in a small town in rural Wisconsin and some friends from the local hockey program asked me for some help on installing an affordable sound system. They got a bid from a contractor for $10,000+ but have nowhere near that much money in their budget.  They said somewhere around $2500 might be more realistic.  We set up a pair of (hold the laughter) Active Mackie Thump 15s that we use for our local music in the park.  The pair was set up about 15 feet above the penalty box aimed out across the ice towards the 2 bleacher sections  (might hold 500 people total).  I know these speakers aren't high end stuff, but they actually sounded well on the rink and in the bleachers and were plenty loud.  I know ice arenas present a challenging acoustical environment, but with the foam ceiling tiles in there its not too shabby.  They currently have 4 cgm speakers (specs unknown) set up right in front of the bleachers and a soundtech powered mixer w/ about 300 watts @2 ohms mono output.  The stuff is really old, wore out and extremely rough on the ears to listen too!  Can't hear them on the rink either.

I'm a novice sound guy at best.  I'd like to believe I know a few things but fully admit I have much to learn.  Always reading articles & reviews to try and learn because i care about how music sounds.  I stumbled upon this website when reviewing Octosound speakers.  I figured this looks like a good place to get some legitimate advice.  Before I ask a bunch of questions and waste anyone's time, I just need one thing answered.  Is it okay to use powered speakers in an ice arena or will the heat inside from the amp cause condensation inside and ruin them?  I've heard a few people say it's okay.  The guy at Sweetwater says it's okay but I know he just wants to make a sale!  Any help here would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks much!

I specialized in small hockey arenas for 12 years and a couple things come to mind re: powered speakers in that environment.
1: to do it properly you need to have an electrician install power at the speakers (extension cords are not permitted for permanent use)
2: The speakers (if they're good) and amps will survive the humidity, but the volume control and selector switches will not. can you imagine having to rent a lift or getting up on a ladder just to jiggle the volume control once it goes flakey?

You do get more for your money with powered speakers, but there is a time and a place where separating the amps from the speakers is a really good idea

Jason