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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => DJ Forum => Topic started by: Mark Tansey on September 08, 2016, 01:11:45 pm

Title: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Mark Tansey on September 08, 2016, 01:11:45 pm
Hey Guys, New to the forum so help would be a massive help.
Have been looking at new speakers and I have came down to Mackie SRM 650(15") and Mackie SRM 550(12"), Both are powered speakers and they are both 1600W peak and 800W rms, what's the reccomendations?
Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 08, 2016, 02:30:08 pm
Would you kindly,

Fix your name as per the rules found [which you accepted] when you created your account and then stickied at the top of every sub forum.

We cannot help until you do so.

Rules: Read them please.
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,110.0.html
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Mark Tansey on September 08, 2016, 03:23:17 pm
Would you kindly,

Fix your name as per the rules found [which you accepted] when you created your account and then stickied at the top of every sub forum.

We cannot help until you do so.

Rules: Read them please.
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,110.0.html
Well I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware.
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Corey Scogin on September 08, 2016, 03:29:23 pm
Hey Guys, New to the forum so help would be a massive help.
Have been looking at new speakers and I have came down to Mackie SRM 650(15") and Mackie SRM 550(12"), Both are powered speakers and they are both 1600W peak and 800W rms, what's the reccomendations?
Thanks in advance!

Which one sounds better to you?
How do you plan to use them? Live music?  DJ?  Bar bands? Corporate talking heads events?
How large of an area do you need to fill with sound and how loud?
Are you using subs?
Look around and compare with other brands like JBL, Yamaha, and EV and demo if possible.
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 08, 2016, 04:07:06 pm
Well I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware.

You weren't aware because you didn't pay attention during the sign up process nor when you posted your first message.  There are warnings everywhere.

It's not just the point of using your real name (though that is important for accountability) if you can't follow directions in such a simple process are your going to take the time to understand the direction, tutelage and advice offered here?

Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Kevin McDonough on September 08, 2016, 04:41:34 pm
Hey Guys, New to the forum so help would be a massive help.
Have been looking at new speakers and I have came down to Mackie SRM 650(15") and Mackie SRM 550(12"), Both are powered speakers and they are both 1600W peak and 800W rms, what's the reccomendations?
Thanks in advance!

Hey

The general recommendations are usually that 15" cones are better if you'll be using the speakers on their own, you get a little more bass extension. The 12" will be better if you're using them with a sub, you don't need the same bass extension and you'll get a better vocal/midrange sound.

However as said it's rarely as simple as that and a better description of how you plan to use them would help us to give you a more detailed answer.

And can I ask, how did you arrive at your decision of Mackie, and did you compare them to others? While in terms of numbers on the spec sheet they may sound a little more impressive than others with a slightly bigger sounding amplifier built in, there is no guarentee that this actually translates to louder or better sound.

There are very good models from Yamaha particuluarly (the DSR range are usually considered best in the price range for a 2-way box on stick) and also EV, JBL etc and as said it would be worth actually listening and comparing if you could before making a final decision.

Kev
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Don T. Williams on September 08, 2016, 04:44:01 pm
More information on what you need to use the loudspeakers for is needed.  If you are DJing or using these with a full band with no subs (or no plans for subs), you will probably want the a 15" system just for the slightly extended/and or more powerful bass.  If it's for an acoustic act with vocals and no bass or drums, I think 12's almost always sound better.  If you plan on adding subs very soon, again I would lean to the 12's.

I'm not trying to fault a particular brand, but I really don't like 12" and (especially) 15" two- way speakers that have the cross-over frequency at (or very near) 3Kz.  I know that is done to "protect" the very small HF drivers, but the critical vocal range suffers . . . a lot.

There are a lot of reasonably good loudspeakers in this price range.  Follow Corey's advise and listen to as many choices as possible, and listen in a manner that replicates how you will be using them as best possible.  A EDM recording demoed at 115db might make one speaker sound better than another speaker that could be much better for a vocal duo.  Also be skeptical of how things are demoed.  An unscrupulous sales person can "make" a lesser quality speaker (house brand?) sound better that a higher quality product by changing EQ and other settings on self powered speakers just to push a higher profit model at you.  In almost any demo, the loudspeaker that is just slightly louder (maybe not even perceptibly) will sound "better".  That's an old HI shop trick.  Not every sale person is out to screw you, but keep your guard up and listen very carefully.
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on September 08, 2016, 04:51:57 pm
for my living room 15" but only with a sealed box so you don't get that low bass ported cabinet bump and funnies.  Or not.  ;D

JR

PS welcome, DJs don't get much love here..
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Mark Tansey on September 08, 2016, 04:56:43 pm
Sorry guys, I'm a dj. The crowds vary as I'm sure ye know and also does the size of the venue I could be in a small bar to a hall that holds 450 People. I don't use subs. The reason I landed at Mackie was because of the wattage. Some of ye more experienced lads or ladies might hopefullu be able to point me in the right direction of make etc.
Thanks.
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 08, 2016, 05:49:48 pm
Sorry guys, I'm a dj. The crowds vary as I'm sure ye know and also does the size of the venue I could be in a small bar to a hall that holds 450 People. I don't use subs. The reason I landed at Mackie was because of the wattage. Some of ye more experienced lads or ladies might hopefullu be able to point me in the right direction of make etc.
Thanks.

The SRM650's are rated at 800w with 2x 400w amps. One amp driving LF and the other to HF. So the rating would be more like 500w max as the HF driver couldn't handle 400w - maybe 100w. SPL rated at 133db max - the true measurement of volume.
I used to own a couple of Yamaha DXR15's which were amazing for the money and had great low frequency response. rated at 700w BUT 600w sent to LF and 100w to HF which is more realistic - also rated at 133db.
I have only heard the SRM450 and SRM550 and didn't like them very much - too honky and muffled. For the extra $100 for the DXR15, I'd wager the Yammies would blow the Mackies away in terms of quality, sound and power.
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Mark Tansey on September 08, 2016, 07:08:00 pm
Okay thanks Debbie, I was also looking at, RCF Art 712-A MkII, JBL PRX 712, and JBL PRX 715. Would does everyone think?
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on September 08, 2016, 08:04:00 pm
Okay thanks Debbie, I was also looking at, RCF Art 712-A MkII, JBL PRX 712, and JBL PRX 715. Would does everyone think?
I personally think that the rcf712 sounds really great and it goes very low and loud despite being only a 12".
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on September 08, 2016, 08:15:20 pm
I don't use subs.
That will have to change for those 400 person events, no speaker on a stand will deliver the sound you need/want. FYI.. my business is supplying SR for wedding DJ's for the most part. I'd give a +1 to the Yamaha DSR or DXR series or the JBL PRX or SRX series, but I would caution against everything Mackie. I own some DXRs and some Mackies. In all cases I'd suggest getting a pair of 12" tops and two 18" subs to start, yes the 15" tops give you a little more lowend but it's nothing compared to what even a single 18 sitting on the floor will deliver, so don't waste your time. If you insist on not using subs then you'll just have to get used to your party goers leaving for the event next door where the DJ brought a sub.. or four. ;D I have seen this repeatedly on numerous banquet centers here.. by the end of the night the DJ with the most thump ends up with all the guests and even the newlyweds from the other events in the same building, and that is usually one of my DJs.
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 08, 2016, 08:32:25 pm
Okay thanks Debbie, I was also looking at, RCF Art 712-A MkII, JBL PRX 712, and JBL PRX 715. Would does everyone think?

At the price of the PRX712 right now -$449 (PAS)- ... you could get 2, still be better sounding than the Mackies and maybe add in a PRX718 sub at $800 -$900.
All the PRX 700 series speakers are on close out so you can't go wrong. I agree with others that you will miss a sub (and so will your audience) if you don't get one - the low end on any 15" full range speaker can't match a dedicated sub - even the DXR15 won't fill the gap properly...
I love the PRX718xlf subs and use them all the time... I personally prefer the Yamaha DSR112 to the PRX712 but at $449, you could get 2, stretch to a sub as well and have a really decent sounding rig. Even better with 2 subs of course and well matched. If you chose to go this route though, if you want to add another sub down the road you might have to go used though with the PRX718xlf no longer being made.
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 08, 2016, 11:57:36 pm
Do you want more watts (heat) or more SPL (loudness) ?

You don't hear watts.

Watts are the wrong spec to be looking at.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on September 09, 2016, 01:44:02 am
Do you want more watts (heat) or more SPL (loudness) ?

You don't hear watts.

Watts are the wrong spec to be looking at.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

What Rob is saying is that SPL is a much better spec to look at than wattage, if you are interested in "how loud" a powered speaker will go. Max SPL is the most noise (sound) the speaker will make for an (usually) unstated time. It does not tell you the quality of the sound/noise being produced.

Please note that a 1 or 2 db difference is not particularly noticable for most folks.

What is your immediate budget? 
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Luke Geis on September 09, 2016, 03:35:02 am
In general:

12" speakers for quality of sound, but with a need for sub support if you want full range audio.

15" speakers if you must have low end content and will not, or do not have subs.

The smaller the speaker, the better the quality of sound ( in general ) potential there is. All that means is that the smaller speakers have less mass and therefore can react to the electrical signal better than a larger element.

As to wattage and SPL, that is a two way street. A speaker with 2000 watts may only produce 130db whereas a unit with 1000 watts may produce 133db. Whats the difference? Nothing more than efficiency. Wattage means nothing in reality. The peak SPL rating of the speaker is not a telling measurement either. Just because it will get that loud does not mean that it will sound good doing it. However speakers that get rather loud usually have the potential to sound better at reasonable levels. Why is this? They are not working as hard to produce the work that you're asking them to do.

How loud is loud enough? That is a math problem that you will need to learn. My theory is that if you plan on being loud and want it to sound good, you need a speaker capable of at least 135db. A speaker that will get to 133db is pretty darn close and I would say it is at the threshold of not loud enough for what most really want it to do. It is easy to turn a speaker down, but very hard to turn it up once it is near it's limits. So don't pick one speaker over the other because it is 2db louder. Pick the one that sounds the best at performance level.
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Mark Tansey on September 09, 2016, 04:51:38 am
Okay so it seems like it's down to JBL, The PRX712 Is 135db and the PRX715 is 136db. Where do ye find the cheapest place to putchase?
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Don T. Williams on September 09, 2016, 05:52:29 pm
I Think your getting good advise all around, and the JBL PRX at close out prices are real values.

I'm not trying to insult DJ's, or Hip Hop, or EDM, but with most of that type music you probably won't miss the smoother mid range that you might get with a 12" speaker.  Go with the 15's AND get subs (or rent them) for bigger events.  Maybe 100 people without subs, but Paul (and others) are right.  Subs make a huge difference for dance music!
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Mark Tansey on September 09, 2016, 06:08:22 pm
Yeah normally I wouldn't be playing to over 100 people, but I would still love to buy a sub so I will when I get the money together for one. Where do ye all buy yere gear?
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 09, 2016, 09:30:38 pm
. The reason I landed at Mackie was because of the wattage.
Wattage should be one of the last thing you look at in  a speaker.

At the bottom end of the market, the wattage claims are all over the map-and often many times larger than what they can actually produce.

Buying a speaker because of the wattage is like choosing a car on low the gas milage is-when you are looking for speed.

They may or may NOT be related.

The manufacturers who post 'BIG WATTS" on the sides of the boxes are preying on the people who think that watts is all there is. 

There is A LOT more than simple watts.

And 1 real watt could be called 8 watts if using the IPPO wattage calculation.

So BE VERY CAREFUL when comparing "watts"  THEY ARE NOT all created equal.
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Mark Tansey on September 10, 2016, 04:45:43 am
Wattage should be one of the last thing you look at in  a speaker.

At the bottom end of the market, the wattage claims are all over the map-and often many times larger than what they can actually produce.

Buying a speaker because of the wattage is like choosing a car on low the gas milage is-when you are looking for speed.

They may or may NOT be related.

The manufacturers who post 'BIG WATTS" on the sides of the boxes are preying on the people who think that watts is all there is. 

There is A LOT more than simple watts.

And 1 real watt could be called 8 watts if using the IPPO wattage calculation.

So BE VERY CAREFUL when comparing "watts"  THEY ARE NOT all created equal.
Okay thank you, So what do you think of the JBL PRX 715?
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on September 10, 2016, 11:18:09 am
Okay thank you, So what do you think of the JBL PRX 715?

I own several of the prx600 series boxes (the prior iteration of the series).  I have 6 of the prx612, 2 of the 615, and 4 of the 618sxlf.  The 600 series "plays well" with the 700 series speakers, based on reports of folks who have rented from me. That is not always the case when mixing brands or models.

If you can figure out a way to purchase a prx718 sub now to go with 700 series tops, I strongly suggest you do that. IMO, one 718 sub and one 712 top will sound better than a pair of 715 tops by themselves for DJ dance music. A single top over sub won't look like most setups, however, but it a more appropriate top to sub ratio. Ivan Beaver (a regular contributor here) is a big advocate of a single point source for getting the best sound reproduction. For dance music, you might even find that one top over two subs gives you the chest-thumping sound I suspect you desire.

FWIW, I did buy tops before getting subs, but I wasn't trying to score close-out specials either.  Think longer range about the system you want to have, not just what you currently can afford. Develop a plan to build a rational system, not just a collection of separate speakers. If that is something you can't do, then just get a pair of the 715s.

Good luck!

Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 10, 2016, 09:51:41 pm
Okay thank you, So what do you think of the JBL PRX 715?
I have no opinion one way or the other-because I have no experience with it.

I don't participate in "here say"
Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 11, 2016, 01:01:18 am

I don't participate in "here say"

Would you be trying a clever juxtaposition of "hearsay" ?

Title: Re: 12Inch or 15Inch Speakers?
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on September 11, 2016, 02:48:52 pm
I very successfully DJ'd with 12" 2-way boxes over single or dual 18" subs.  Many times just I just used one 12" over a dual 18", running mono.  Space in bars was always limited, and this did the trick.  I just never liked the sound of a 15" trying to be a midrange driver - no clarity.  Also, getting 12-inchers up on a stand, or on a pole over a sub, was a breeze.

Get a very good pair of 12's and one very good sub now.  Buy the 2nd sub later, when necessary. Find some owners (here or elsewhere) to get a demo before buying.  When auditioning any speaker, only listen to ONE of them, as you can be tricked, or misled, by the sound coming from 2 places.  Trust me, they will both sound the same.

Subs:  I never leave home without one.

If you will never buy subs, then get a powered 15".  The lowest end that I can recommend that sounds very good by itself is the EV ELX115P.  I'm sure there are others, and prices go up from there.

The ELX118P, while functional, never really gave me the "goosies" - there are better choices in powered subs. 

ALWAYS use a high-pass filter (about 35-40 Hz) on unpowered subs (powered subs have this protection built in).

This is my personal opinion, of course.

-Dennis