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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Rusty Stevens on August 04, 2016, 12:25:02 pm

Title: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Rusty Stevens on August 04, 2016, 12:25:02 pm
Please feel free to delete the Danley thread, and any of my other threads. I'm apparently an idiot who doesn't understand how to make a purchase and have somehow sullied a God like brand. I appreciate everyone's feedback and will take this all to heart, hoping to improve my quality of life and how I deal with purchasing consumer goods.
Just Sayi'n
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Yoel Farkas on August 04, 2016, 12:41:22 pm
Please feel free to delete the Danley thread, and any of my other threads. I'm apparently an idiot who doesn't understand how to make a purchase and have somehow sullied a God like brand. I appreciate everyone's feedback and will take this all to heart, hoping to improve my quality of life and how I deal with purchasing consumer goods.
Just Sayi'n
as some one that had gone through a similar experience purchasing Danley products.

the reason i didn't feel bad about it is, because i worked hard to get it (and to get it on time)- now i finally have it and i enjoy it every moment of use.

you ran away to another brand. i noticed you are now unpacking it, and the guild start to come up. "maybe i would have to be more patience and get the Danley products"

just say to your self: if god wants me to have something else, that means its good for me at that time. and god wants me to enjoy what i have and try to improve in the future.

Good luck with your new system. it's enjoyable to test a new system. hold on with that enjoyment as long you can.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ray Aberle on August 04, 2016, 12:48:41 pm
Rusty,

Please don't be upset. It is clear that Jamin missed the point of your post, several times. He did not understand that you TRIED to get Danley to take the sale. You tried several times, in fact. The best pricing in the world, or the best support, doesn't matter a hill of beans if you can't purchase the product in the first place.

In relating your story, though, you have shed light on the poor performance of their rep in your area, and the poor oversight by his manager, as well as the failure for their main office phone-answering-people to get your concerns addressed promptly. I know that for every person who complains publicly about something in the world, there are 10 people who just bit their tongue and moved on- so Danley is probably very appreciative that you have brought this issue to light.

I thank you for sharing. Once again, I feel you went above and beyond trying to get them to take the sale; that they lost it is entirely their fault.

-Ray
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 04, 2016, 12:52:40 pm
Mod...
Please lock this...again
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 04, 2016, 12:58:21 pm
Group hug...?

JR 8) (no offense intended)
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Stephen Kirby on August 04, 2016, 01:36:11 pm
While this didn't completely descend into one, I've gotten caught up in flame wars on forums.  The great thing about this group is that it is mostly occupied by professionals and others who look at the service of SR as a professional endeavor.
I find it best to lurk on a forum for awhile and get a feel for the active participants.  There will be some that I find that I agree with on things where I have experience and therefore their assessment of things I haven't tried will probably work for me.  And others who's taste or approach are different.  I try not to make them wrong in my mind but I tend to just haze over their posts in any event.  There may be something to learn that catches my eye.  But if they're coming from a divergent opinion it doesn't add any value to invest time.  I'm sure the posts do add value to someone who's opinions are more aligned (I like Chevy more than Ford, but I own a Ford van since it was a good value to me at the time).
I get even more practice at this with FB and the current sociopolitical climate.  Friendships based on musical simpatico are more important to me than other divergent opinions.  So I just gloss over the things that don't work for me.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 04, 2016, 02:17:37 pm
Mod...
Please lock this...again

Why?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Tom Danley on August 04, 2016, 02:19:09 pm
Please feel free to delete the Danley thread, and any of my other threads. I'm apparently an idiot who doesn't understand how to make a purchase and have somehow sullied a God like brand. I appreciate everyone's feedback and will take this all to heart, hoping to improve my quality of life and how I deal with purchasing consumer goods.
Just Sayi'n

Hi Rusty, guys
We are still a comparatively small company that doesnít advertise and we depend on word of mouth and side by side comparisons for most of our sales.   So when someone searches us out, there is a strong incentive to provide the best service in every way we can.
   
While this is a key part of how we do things, it doesnít mean none of us ever drop the ball and while we have a rep network with reps that handle other products in addition to ours, sometimes they have been known to drop the ball as well.  I donít know if the office  figured out exactly where yours got dropped but I guess it did and I am sorry about that.     
Where ever that fumble happened donít get the idea this is not taken seriously and it is being addressed.   
As you might be able to tell from the tone elsewhere here, we try to supply and heck, I try to design loudspeakers that as greatly as possible out perform their price and that most customers are delighted with and some are willing to talk about in forums like this.
Anyway, Iím sorry it didnít work out this time around, this was not business as usual.
Best Regards
Tom Danley
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 04, 2016, 03:17:01 pm
Why?

Because it is only an attempt to continue an already locked thread just to get in the last word.

What's the purpose of locking a thread if somebody starts it all over again.

Move on
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Michael Lascuola on August 04, 2016, 03:27:09 pm
Group hug...?

JR 8) (no offense intended)
This is why we need a 'Like" button  :)
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 04, 2016, 03:30:08 pm
May I ask why the original thread got locked in the first place?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 04, 2016, 03:33:31 pm
Rusty,

Please don't be upset. It is clear that Jamin missed the point of your post, several times. He did not understand that you TRIED to get Danley to take the sale. You tried several times, in fact. The best pricing in the world, or the best support, doesn't matter a hill of beans if you can't purchase the product in the first place.

In relating your story, though, you have shed light on the poor performance of their rep in your area, and the poor oversight by his manager, as well as the failure for their main office phone-answering-people to get your concerns addressed promptly. I know that for every person who complains publicly about something in the world, there are 10 people who just bit their tongue and moved on- so Danley is probably very appreciative that you have brought this issue to light.

I thank you for sharing. Once again, I feel you went above and beyond trying to get them to take the sale; that they lost it is entirely their fault.

-Ray

The problem is that YOU are totally missing MY point.

Why would you just come on the PSW and immediately start bashing a company when anybody who has been on this forum for even a very short time knows or should know there are PLENTY of Danley folks who would be more than glad to help out.

Obviously the OP has been here before.

It would have been a lot better if it started out as.."Hey guys I want to buy some brand (whatever) products, but I'm having trouble finding a dealer. Can somebody help.?"

 It's not that hard.

Now you can lock it  ;D
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 04, 2016, 03:34:00 pm
May I ask why the original thread got locked in the first place?

It got locked in the first place because it was just repeating itself and various posters haranguing the OP with no purpose. It was going nowhere. Now it seems those same posters have decided to continue it here.

Mac
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 04, 2016, 03:47:00 pm
It got locked in the first place because it was just repeating itself and various posters haranguing the OP with no purpose. It was going nowhere. Now it seems those same posters have decided to continue it here.

Mac

Thanks Mac.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ray Aberle on August 04, 2016, 04:21:12 pm
The problem is that YOU are totally missing MY point.

Why would you just come on the PSW and immediately start bashing a company when anybody who has been on this forum for even a very short time knows or should know there are PLENTY of Danley folks who would be more than glad to help out.

Obviously the OP has been here before.

It would have been a lot better if it started out as.."Hey guys I want to buy some brand (whatever) products, but I'm having trouble finding a dealer. Can somebody help.?"

 It's not that hard.

Now you can lock it  ;D
I understand your point(s). You feel that the company in question can do no wrong, and even if this is an isolated incident, there is no reason for them to know about it.

I wish I lived in such a perfect world that NOTHING ever goes wrong...

If I did not already have concrete evidence to prove this is the case, I would bet you a thousand bucks, right now, that Danley is DAMN APPRECIATIVE to have this come up, so they can address the problem(s) in their rep system.

[And again, Rusty followed the established sales process as far as he could. Especially since he was trying to get a demo, something that would not be as easy for Danley dealers on here to help him with! How many times do people come on here complaining that they went "out of channels" and nothing got accomplished? And the group response is always, "Follow the rules, follow the process, and you should be OK." Something broke, AND THAT'S OK- because it's being fixed.]

I apologise to Mac, and the community, if I am one of those "same posters" who is "repeating itself (sic)" - but I do not agree with the premise that a customer of ANY company should accept being apparently blown off when they are there, money in hand, trying to make a purchase. And Mr. Hedden and Mr. Danley appear to feel the same way.

Thanks,

Ray
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 04, 2016, 04:28:01 pm
I understand your point(s). You feel that the company in question can do no wrong, and even if this is an isolated incident, there is no reason for them to know about it.

I wish I lived in such a perfect world that NOTHING ever goes wrong...

If I did not already have concrete evidence to prove this is the case, I would bet you a thousand bucks, right now, that Danley is DAMN APPRECIATIVE to have this come up, so they can address the problem(s) in their rep system.

[And again, Rusty followed the established sales process as far as he could. Especially since he was trying to get a demo, something that would not be as easy for Danley dealers on here to help him with! How many times do people come on here complaining that they went "out of channels" and nothing got accomplished? And the group response is always, "Follow the rules, follow the process, and you should be OK." Something broke, AND THAT'S OK- because it's being fixed.]

I apologise to Mac, and the community, if I am one of those "same posters" who is "repeating itself (sic)" - but I do not agree with the premise that a customer of ANY company should accept being apparently blown off when they are there, money in hand, trying to make a purchase. And Mr. Hedden and Mr. Danley appear to feel the same way.

Thanks,

Ray

I never said or implied that.

I did say that even the best running back fumbles sooner or later. 

I'm not sticking up for Danley, I don't own any of their products. I didn't feel it was right to come on here and just start bashing them right out of the box.

It was the way it was originally presented I don't agree with.

It was really easy for him to get help, pretty much immediately, after posting here.

That's what I mean by "it's not that hard to get help."

Now...The water is already gone under the bridge.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ray Aberle on August 04, 2016, 04:31:40 pm
Since I do not have time to go and quote the multiple times that you stated that the OP didn't undergo *nearly* enough effort to try and get Danley to take his money, I am going to drop out of this conversation now.

Thanks and good luck-

Ray
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 04, 2016, 05:03:11 pm
Since I do not have time to go and quote the multiple times that you stated that the OP didn't undergo *nearly* enough effort to try and get Danley to take his money, I am going to drop out of this conversation now.

Thanks and good luck-

Ray

Well I took the time to go back and read all my posts

Didn't see anything where I stated anything like what you have stated.

I did see where I suggested what "I" would have done....big difference

Pretty sad when you can't have a simple disagreement here without somebody getting offended.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 04, 2016, 05:58:16 pm
The problem is that YOU are totally missing MY point.

Why would you just come on the PSW and immediately start bashing a company when anybody who has been on this forum for even a very short time knows or should know there are PLENTY of Danley folks who would be more than glad to help out.

Obviously the OP has been here before.

It would have been a lot better if it started out as.."Hey guys I want to buy some brand (whatever) products, but I'm having trouble finding a dealer. Can somebody help.?"

 It's not that hard.

Now you can lock it  ;D

I have to admit that when I first read the post I thought that sending after the purchase had a tinge of anger to it.  We can't see into the guys heart and know if he wanted to provide meaningful feedback or was trying to wave the purchase in somebodies face.

This could have been, from the OP's perspective a very large purchase with an emotional connection.  Who knows. 

The key is there was a process slip on the Danley side, they responded quickly and appropriately. 

The rest of the dialog didn't seem to have much person and took on a lot of vitriol.

 
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 04, 2016, 06:40:34 pm
Hey guy's. Far be it from to not wade into a good fight, especially when I admire the combatants as much as I do you knuckleheads above. Give rusty a break why don't you. I've been where he's just gone, and I'm sure so have every one of us at some point in time with one company or another. So someone dropped the ball on the Danley side and Rusty bought orange because he became frustrated. Simple, done, let it fucking go. It's not like he bought cheap shit, it's not like Tom and the boys won't learn from this, and we all know Tom Danley and company to be a first class or manufacturer of fine pro sound products. I too would like to hear the products at some point, but they're hard to find in the wild, so my only point would be to suggest that Tom set up some listening sites in area's where it will help people decide on the purchase. Other than that there's nothing more to say here.

Except.........

I volunteer to set up a listening site right here just outside of Boston within a 2 hour drive of 4 states.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on August 04, 2016, 07:30:34 pm
You could read Rusty's first post as:

"I wanted this product, tried to get it, but ran out of time because I have customer's to take care of.  Someday, I'm hoping to be in a position to buy another system and I REALLY, REALLY want to try Danley.  Maybe, just maybe I can get someone to listen before "someday" arrives.

More than once I have bought a tool that was not my first choice, but a tool in hand was better than a pic on the web or in a catalog-then eventually bought what I wanted.

Seems like Danley got the message, responded the best they could under the circumstances.  Hopefully Rusty is happy with the successful outcome of his post-and if things work out Rusty will be in the market for another system sooner rather than later and everyone will be happier.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 04, 2016, 08:17:01 pm


Except.........

I volunteer to set up a listening site right here just outside of Boston within a 2 hour drive of 4 states.
We might just take you up on that.  I have contacted the regional rep.  We will let him decide
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Doug Maye on August 04, 2016, 08:29:47 pm
We might just take you up on that.  I have contacted the regional rep.  We will let him decide
I ran into the same situation. I was frustrated as all hell. Sooooooooo I zipped an email off to the fine folks at Danley. NEVER got a response. I was left feeling "unworthy" of owning Danley products.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 04, 2016, 08:35:23 pm
I ran into the same situation. I was frustrated as all hell. Sooooooooo I zipped an email off to the fine folks at Danley. NEVER got a response. I was left feeling "unworthy" of owning Danley products.
I know that for awhile the "general email went nowhere.

That is one thing I HATE about emails, you never know if it actually went through.

I have things all the time that just "disappear" without ever getting to where they were intended.

Maybe that is what happened to your email.  We are sorry if that is the case.

Call me old fashioned-but I like the confirmation of a phone call.  That way at least I KNOW I have talked to somebody.

I know the OP did call and talk to someone.  That is being looked into.  I have no idea or comment about that.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ray Aberle on August 04, 2016, 08:59:16 pm
At least email has a bit of a record, as opposed to text messages. I HATE when people text me-- a) there's no record of it, and b) it's hard to write a message on a phone- unless it's a one word answer, I would prefer to email.

Actually, I find there's better records of an email then there is of a phone call-- at least there are email server logs and such.

Either way, glad every thing is getting worked out!

-Ray
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 04, 2016, 09:18:10 pm
At least email has a bit of a record, as opposed to text messages. I HATE when people text me-- a) there's no record of it, and b) it's hard to write a message on a phone- unless it's a one word answer, I would prefer to email.

Actually, I find there's better records of an email then there is of a phone call-- at least there are email server logs and such.

Either way, glad every thing is getting worked out!

-Ray
I do agree that an email produces a "paper trail", which is very useful.

HOWEVER-I also know a lot of people who use email as an excuse for not following through.

"Well I sent an email"--------

DID YOU CALL and follow up?

They think an email-especially a "cold call" one is good enough.  How do you know the person got it? Unless you "read receipt" every one?

Sometimes a 5 minute conversation on a phone will take the place of an hours worth of emails AND is much more personal.

I remember going to trade shows and meeting people I talk to all the time and seeing what they really look like.  Email doesn't let you imagine like a phone conversation does.

BTW-that is good AND bad-------------

YES, there are advantages and disadvantages to both.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 04, 2016, 09:32:35 pm
My part in the dog pile dealt with the Manufacturer/Representative/Retailer model.  That's why I pointed out the sins of a former rep firm with a very big client... it can happen to *any* brand.

"Two minutes to places, Mr. Loman."
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 04, 2016, 09:55:16 pm
At least email has a bit of a record, as opposed to text messages. I HATE when people text me-- a) there's no record of it, and b) it's hard to write a message on a phone- unless it's a one word answer, I would prefer to email.

Actually, I find there's better records of an email then there is of a phone call-- at least there are email server logs and such.

Either way, glad every thing is getting worked out!

-Ray

We us a ticket system at my IT company and I still have customers that text or email me directly and then wonder why they don't get immediate service.  The ticket system is managed by customer service, provides a record of all interactions and holds everyone accountable. 
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ray Aberle on August 04, 2016, 10:01:16 pm
We us a ticket system at my IT company and I still have customers that text or email me directly and then wonder why they don't get immediate service.  The ticket system is managed by customer service, provides a record of all interactions and holds everyone accountable.

I always tell people to NOT text me-- call our office number. If I am in the shop, I most likely won't have my mobile on me anyways, so "for best results" (read:quickest) call the office number and I'll get called to the phone.

-Ray
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jay Marr on August 04, 2016, 10:35:24 pm
We might just take you up on that.  I have contacted the regional rep.  We will let him decide

Please do. 
I'd be there in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on August 04, 2016, 10:57:36 pm
I've had roughly the same number of good experiences and bad experiences from every vendor I have dealt with.  I've had gear failures from Crown, Allen&Heath, Chauvet, Sennheiser, Vari-lite, and others.  I've had sales or service problems with EAW, Chauvet, Allen&Heath, JBL, etc.  My latest issue is discovering that the nesting strips on my latest Danley TH118 are opposite my earlier batch from 2013. I have worked through issues in the past, and I'm sure will have more issues in the future.

Every person is entitled to set their own threshold of when the BS gets significant enough to warrant a change.  Rusty is not wrong for taking his money elsewhere.  Neither is Danley a bad company.  We work in a very small industry and due to the capital cost of inventory and the logistical challenges of shipping heavy speakers around the country, it can be hard to source gear. 

Live and let live, and let's make some music.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 05, 2016, 02:16:41 am
Hey guy's. Far be it from to not wade into a good fight, especially when I admire the combatants as much as I do you knuckleheads above. Give rusty a break why don't you. I've been where he's just gone, and I'm sure so have every one of us at some point in time with one company or another. So someone dropped the ball on the Danley side and Rusty bought orange because he became frustrated. Simple, done, let it fucking go. It's not like he bought cheap shit, it's not like Tom and the boys won't learn from this, and we all know Tom Danley and company to be a first class or manufacturer of fine pro sound products. I too would like to hear the products at some point, but they're hard to find in the wild, so my only point would be to suggest that Tom set up some listening sites in area's where it will help people decide on the purchase. Other than that there's nothing more to say here.

Except.........

I volunteer to set up a listening site right here just outside of Boston within a 2 hour drive of 4 states.

Combatants? Really? (I know you're just kidding  ;D)

I look at it as a discussion.

Why does it have to be considered a fight if you have a difference of opinion?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 05, 2016, 02:19:02 am
At least email has a bit of a record, as opposed to text messages. I HATE when people text me-- a) there's no record of it, and b) it's hard to write a message on a phone- unless it's a one word answer, I would prefer to email.

Actually, I find there's better records of an email then there is of a phone call-- at least there are email server logs and such.

Either way, glad every thing is getting worked out!

-Ray

Didn't you say you were dropping out of this discussion?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 05, 2016, 02:21:53 am
I know that for awhile the "general email went nowhere.

That is one thing I HATE about emails, you never know if it actually went through.

I have things all the time that just "disappear" without ever getting to where they were intended.

Maybe that is what happened to your email.  We are sorry if that is the case.

Call me old fashioned-but I like the confirmation of a phone call.  That way at least I KNOW I have talked to somebody.

I know the OP did call and talk to someone.  That is being looked into.  I have no idea or comment about that.

Exactly.

Just because you "sent an e-mail" doesn't mean they received it.

If you don't get a reply to your email...get off your ass and follow up. Make a phone call. Jezz
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Rusty Stevens on August 05, 2016, 08:16:13 am
First I'd like to apologize to the community.

I normally don't let trolls get to me and try not to take insults personally when they come from the web. It's not an excuse but I'm dealing with some issues at home that have me on edge right now (nothing serious, typical kid graduating high school and getting the know it all I'm an adult now attitude). I should have let the minor insults go and got caught up in defending myself. Thank you all for your patience.

My last word on this subject.

Danley has been great post fallout. I wish the timing of my needs worked out better, but these things happen. I wish them the best of luck in getting their house sorted.

As far as other posters and their opinions, I have no issues with opposing opinions, and I enjoy a good debate. When someone feels the need to toss insults, and insinuations questioning another person's character into the mix they aren't really trying to state an opinion. The opinion is a "cover story" for the real reason they are speaking. I took the relatively minor attacks here personally and I should have done a better job ignoring them. For that I am sorry. The moderators locked the last thread, and the last post was a sarcastic attack insinuating that I'm stupid and don't know one of the basic principals of customer service. I apologize for opening this thread in anger. I took some time away and let my head cool a bit. I'm done with this discussion, and once again... Thanks for your patience.

Sincerely
Rusty Stevens

Please feel free to delete the Danley thread, and any of my other threads. I'm apparently an idiot who doesn't understand how to make a purchase and have somehow sullied a God like brand. I appreciate everyone's feedback and will take this all to heart, hoping to improve my quality of life and how I deal with purchasing consumer goods.
Just Sayi'n
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ray Aberle on August 05, 2016, 08:44:41 am
Didn't you say you were dropping out of this discussion?
Jamin:

Comments like that are unhelpful and unprofessional. Since we clearly are using two different versions of the English language, allow me to explain my previous post:

Since there was no point continuing the conversation with you regarding the topic of Danley and the 'dropped ball,' I chose to discontinue my participation rather then to make a futile effort getting you to understand the OP's point of view.

My latest point is on a new tangent of the subject, and is no longer a conversation with you.

I would ask that you refrain from continuing that unhelpful conversation, at least with me.

Thank you.

Ray
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on August 05, 2016, 09:25:53 am
Please do. 
I'd be there in a heartbeat.

I would make some time to go hear a demo of some of Danley products. And if this were to happen I would hope I could make it. We all know in this industry scheduling time to get to something like this can be a pain. I havenít been able to make it to InfoComm in years due to it always being during graduation season.

Jay, did you say you are in CT? Have we ever talked about that?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 05, 2016, 09:38:04 am
First I'd like to apologize to the community.

I normally don't let trolls get to me and try not to take insults personally when they come from the web. It's not an excuse but I'm dealing with some issues at home that have me on edge right now (nothing serious, typical kid graduating high school and getting the know it all I'm an adult now attitude). I should have let the minor insults go and got caught up in defending myself. Thank you all for your patience.

My last word on this subject.

Danley has been great post fallout. I wish the timing of my needs worked out better, but these things happen. I wish them the best of luck in getting their house sorted.

As far as other posters and their opinions, I have no issues with opposing opinions, and I enjoy a good debate. When someone feels the need to toss insults, and insinuations questioning another person's character into the mix they aren't really trying to state an opinion. The opinion is a "cover story" for the real reason they are speaking. I took the relatively minor attacks here personally and I should have done a better job ignoring them. For that I am sorry. The moderators locked the last thread, and the last post was a sarcastic attack insinuating that I'm stupid and don't know one of the basic principals of customer service. I apologize for opening this thread in anger. I took some time away and let my head cool a bit. I'm done with this discussion, and once again... Thanks for your patience.

Sincerely
Rusty Stevens

Rusty,

Please show me where I made a direct insult toward you and I will be more than happy to apologize for it.

I will always defend myself to the hilt for any false statements.

Now..I will say I'm sorry for any statements I made that you perceived as an insult. I can assure you it was not my intension to insult anybody or make them feel stupid. 

Sorry if it came across that way.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jay Marr on August 05, 2016, 10:00:20 am
I would make some time to go hear a demo of some of Danley products. And if this were to happen I would hope I could make it. We all know in this industry scheduling time to get to something like this can be a pain. I havenít been able to make it to InfoComm in years due to it always being during graduation season.

Jay, did you say you are in CT? Have we ever talked about that?

I am in Boston (I think Bob L. is as well).

I have never been to InfoComm, but usually go to NAMM.  But trying to 'hear' speakers at NAMM is just really difficult.

I always ponder about picking up some SM80's and finally ending my gear search/buy/sell cycle....but haven't had my ears on them yet.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Stephen Kirby on August 05, 2016, 10:58:35 am
How available are rentals?  A local town I do music in the park events for used to have a once a summer larger event they are thinking of resurrecting.  This came up while I was trying to talk them into putting a CS outlet on the patio where the current events are.
From what I've seen I think an SM80 over dual TH118s would be ideal for this.  And I'd be interested in renting such a rig if the event comes to fruition.  Which would be a gateway drug to owning a next level set up.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Mike Pyle on August 05, 2016, 12:19:01 pm
How available are rentals?  A local town I do music in the park events for used to have a once a summer larger event they are thinking of resurrecting.  This came up while I was trying to talk them into putting a CS outlet on the patio where the current events are.
From what I've seen I think an SM80 over dual TH118s would be ideal for this.  And I'd be interested in renting such a rig if the event comes to fruition.  Which would be a gateway drug to owning a next level set up.

I know a few people in the area with SM80s, and will likely have another set in stock here in a few weeks that could be available.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Scott Carneval on August 05, 2016, 12:47:52 pm
How available are rentals?  A local town I do music in the park events for used to have a once a summer larger event they are thinking of resurrecting.  This came up while I was trying to talk them into putting a CS outlet on the patio where the current events are.
From what I've seen I think an SM80 over dual TH118s would be ideal for this.  And I'd be interested in renting such a rig if the event comes to fruition.  Which would be a gateway drug to owning a next level set up.

For anybody in North Carolina (or anybody who feels like driving) mine are always available for demo and/or rental. And the rep in this area is really good about bringing a trailer full of gear for larger demos.


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Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Stephen Kirby on August 05, 2016, 01:43:52 pm
I know a few people in the area with SM80s, and will likely have another set in stock here in a few weeks that could be available.
Thanks Mike.  If this comes up my first thought was to call you.  But given this thread I thought I'd float it out there in case other people were thinking along similar lines.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Lance Hallmark on August 05, 2016, 01:57:26 pm
We might just take you up on that.  I have contacted the regional rep.  We will let him decide

If you do go that route, I'd be willing to do the same down here in Florida.
Title: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Andrew Broughton on August 05, 2016, 02:00:41 pm
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160805/8369cbd4c45e4d074dcac214e0d50837.gif)


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Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jay Marr on August 05, 2016, 02:42:32 pm
I know a few people in the area with SM80s

Which area is that....?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Stephen Kirby on August 05, 2016, 02:47:29 pm
Which area is that....?
Northern California.  Mike is just north of the Bay Area and I'm in the South Bay.  He's actually delivered stuff to my door when he had to run a large order to someone else down here (maybe I shouldn't set that expectation  ;)).  Great guy.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Rick Powell on August 05, 2016, 05:03:58 pm
I am 85 miles west of Chicago.  We don't usually rent our SM80s and TH 118s out (Doug Fowler did rent our SM80s for an event in Florida once, and John Halliburton has borrowed them for a demo) but my band plays out a few times a month, usually with our system unless it's a big festival with provided sound, and we get a few outside calls to provide also. I do live out in a rural area with practically no neighbors where we could pull 'em out and let 'em rip.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Mike Sullivan on August 05, 2016, 05:59:16 pm
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160805/8369cbd4c45e4d074dcac214e0d50837.gif)


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Hand me a bag of popcorn too while you're at it.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 05, 2016, 06:04:01 pm
I find it ironic that Rusty posted here to describe his poor experience with Danley - yet as the thread(s) have progressed, more and more interest has developed regarding getting demos organized from state to state and will probably result in more Danley sales ..... "A little too Ironic - don't ya think?"
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Stephen Kirby on August 05, 2016, 06:16:37 pm
Debbie, Rusty wanted to be Blue.  But he ended up on the Orange side with you and Bob.  ;)
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 05, 2016, 07:13:20 pm
Debbie, Rusty wanted to be Blue.  But he ended up on the Orange side with you and Bob.  ;)

We'll take the support any way we can ... :D
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Robert Lunceford on August 05, 2016, 07:15:34 pm
I know a few people in the area with SM80s, and will likely have another set in stock here in a few weeks that could be available.

I have a pair of SM80T that I got from Mike, although I am using them with two 18" K-Array subs per side (4 total).
I will be using them on Tuesdays from 6-8pm in the Healdsburg Town Square for three more weeks. This is a square acre and attendance there is 800-1500. I will be using them at Ives park in Sebastopol every Wednesday 5-8pm for the rest of August. This is about an hour north of San Francisco.
I went to hear a band last night (outdoors) and the sound company brought in 4 JBL SRX835P and 2 SRX828P.
I have been using the Danleys all summer, and from what I heard last night, there is a vast difference in clarity and sound quality between the Danley and JBLs. I also found the K-Array subs preferable to the JBLs. But then again, The K-Arrays are $2500 for a single 18" vs $1500 for a double 18" JBL.
The JBLs do have a big physical presence.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Chris Edwards on August 05, 2016, 09:14:16 pm
I am using them with two 18" K-Array subs per side (4 total). The K-Arrays are $2500 for a single 18" vs $1500 for a double 18" JBL.


Are they the KMT18s?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jonathan Betts on August 05, 2016, 09:43:06 pm
Last evenings show with SM80/TH118 rig. My SRX  rig would have fallen apart for this one.


https://youtu.be/SgDpS2UG3Ag
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 05, 2016, 09:57:08 pm
Last evenings show with SM80/TH118 rig. My SRX  rig would have fallen apart for this one.


https://youtu.be/SgDpS2UG3Ag

I doubt it.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Corey Scogin on August 05, 2016, 10:07:59 pm
Last evenings show with SM80/TH118 rig. My SRX rig would have fallen apart for this one.

Really?
As an SM80/TH118 owner, I would think an SRX rig would at least keep up in SPL but I've never compared them side by side. I'd be interested in hearing the new SRX800 series side by side with the Danleys. I'm near Birmingham, AL if anyone with an SRX800 rig wants to do a comparison.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jonathan Betts on August 05, 2016, 10:25:42 pm
I work this venue on a weekly basis and know what my rigs are capable of. Just trying to put things into perspective for people. That is why I post my videos so you all don't think I'm full of shit.

Edit:

100-150' from stage is where the real difference in sound quality lies. For reference, FOH in the video was 90' from stage.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: eric lenasbunt on August 05, 2016, 10:51:46 pm
Anyone in north or central Florida feel free to come on by. I've got TH118, SM80 and an SH50 in the shop right now. Bring your favorite tunes
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Stephen Kirby on August 06, 2016, 01:35:59 am
Last evenings show with SM80/TH118 rig. My SRX  rig would have fallen apart for this one.


https://youtu.be/SgDpS2UG3Ag
Damn, that sounds like Bill Champlin singing.  The rig is smooth too.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Stephen Kirby on August 06, 2016, 01:37:37 am
I have a pair of SM80T that I got from Mike, although I am using them with two 18" K-Array subs per side (4 total).
I will be using them on Tuesdays from 6-8pm in the Healdsburg Town Square for three more weeks. This is a square acre and attendance there is 800-1500. I will be using them at Ives park in Sebastopol every Wednesday 5-8pm for the rest of August. This is about an hour north of San Francisco.
I went to hear a band last night (outdoors) and the sound company brought in 4 JBL SRX835P and 2 SRX828P.
I have been using the Danleys all summer, and from what I heard last night, there is a vast difference in clarity and sound quality between the Danley and JBLs. I also found the K-Array subs preferable to the JBLs. But then again, The K-Arrays are $2500 for a single 18" vs $1500 for a double 18" JBL.
The JBLs do have a big physical presence.
Have you worked with my buddy Greg Heuman up there?  He said something about playing a local festival.  He makes harmonica mics for just about everybody you've heard of.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Robert Lunceford on August 06, 2016, 02:09:21 am
Are they the KMT18s?
I have the KL18ma. I believe they are the predecessor to the KMT18.
http://salestores.com/karraykl18ma.html#.V6V-kChuosw
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Robert Lunceford on August 06, 2016, 02:16:20 am
Have you worked with my buddy Greg Heuman up there?  He said something about playing a local festival.  He makes harmonica mics for just about everybody you've heard of.
I am not familiar with Greg Heuman. Is he in a band? I might know the band.
There are a lot of concert series and festivals here in Sonoma County during the summer. There is a free concert series at a different town every night of the week, except on Mondays, during the summer.
I run sound for two of the series and I know most of the guys that do the others. Dozens of festivals as well.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Robert Lunceford on August 06, 2016, 02:30:34 am
Really?
As an SM80/TH118 owner, I would think an SRX rig would at least keep up in SPL but I've never compared them side by side. I'd be interested in hearing the new SRX800 series side by side with the Danleys. I'm near Birmingham, AL if anyone with an SRX800 rig wants to do a comparison.

I have only heard the one SRX800 series rig that I mentioned. I was startled at the difference from what I am use to hearing from the Danleys and how the JBLs sounded. I agree with Jonathan. The farther you get back the more you notice the difference.
Before I got the Danleys I was using the K-Array column arrays. These too were noticeably clearer and more articulate than the JBL SRX system I heard. The K-Array columns are pretty impressive.
Here is a video taken at the venue in Healdsburg when I was using the K-Array columns. It appears that someone with the band took the video. I'm using the same K-Array subs that are in the video with the Danley SM80s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0xEG2jh6DE
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Scott Carneval on August 06, 2016, 04:05:47 am
A few months ago when Debbie and I did our 'speaker shootout' we compared the OS80 to the SRX812. The OS80 is just a weatherized version of the SM80. It was all I had available at the time.

At 50' the difference was negligible. I'll even say the JBL sounded a little bit better as it was taking full advantage of the FIR processing in the box while the Danley was being fed with an old analog amp and zero processing.

But at 150' it was a night and day difference. The Danley sounded essentially the same at 150' as it did at 50'. The JBL sounded like it was coming from Sponge Bobs pineapple under the sea. Ok maybe it wasn't that bad, but it was a pretty drastic difference. It sounded like someone turned the JBL so it was facing away from us.




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Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 06, 2016, 11:26:31 am
. The OS80 is just a weatherized version of the SM80.

Actually there are a number of differences between the OS80 and the SM80.

They both use high output B&C drivers, but the OS 80 has slightly less output.  The driver in the OS80 weighs more and costs less.  Different magnet structure.

This was done to keep the weight down on the SM80 and to reduce costs for the OS80.  The extra weight is not as big a deal for installs-especially for what products it "goes up against" and price was more important.

Also the shell of the OS80 is not as sturdy and resonant free as the SM80.

The OS80 is made from a very strong and thick plastic (they make guard rails and truck hoods from the same material), but it simply is not as "acoustically good" as the 18MM baltic birch that the SM80 is made from.

The horns are identical-a very thick plastic (to reduce vibration modes) that weighs around 11lbs.

They use the same crossover and both have the Sentinel HF protection circuit.

The SM80 is MUCH MUCH easier to move around.

Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Scott Carneval on August 06, 2016, 12:40:27 pm
Actually there are a number of differences between the OS80 and the SM80.

They both use high output B&C drivers, but the OS 80 has slightly less output.  The driver in the OS80 weighs more and costs less.  Different magnet structure.

This was done to keep the weight down on the SM80 and to reduce costs for the OS80.  The extra weight is not as big a deal for installs-especially for what products it "goes up against" and price was more important.

Also the shell of the OS80 is not as sturdy and resonant free as the SM80.

The OS80 is made from a very strong and thick plastic (they make guard rails and truck hoods from the same material), but it simply is not as "acoustically good" as the 18MM baltic birch that the SM80 is made from.

The horns are identical-a very thick plastic (to reduce vibration modes) that weighs around 11lbs.

They use the same crossover and both have the Sentinel HF protection circuit.

The SM80 is MUCH MUCH easier to move around.

I was under the assumption that they were the same driver. I assume (there I go again) that it's a neo vs. ferrite thing?

I realize the cabinets are entirely different. In addition to being plastic, the OS80 cabinet is quite a bit larger and therefore provides significantly more LF extension.

The OS80 is an unwieldy beast for one person to set up. It's not so much the weight but the sheer size that makes it difficult to maneuver.

IMO the SM80 sounds even better than the OS80. So for the comparison at hand (SM80 vs SRX) I think the OS80 is a valid substitute. 


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Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 06, 2016, 01:16:19 pm
I was under the assumption that they were the same driver. I assume (there I go again) that it's a neo vs. ferrite thing?

I realize the cabinets are entirely different. In addition to being plastic, the OS80 cabinet is quite a bit larger and therefore provides significantly more LF extension.

The OS80 is an unwieldy beast for one person to set up. It's not so much the weight but the sheer size that makes it difficult to maneuver.

IMO the SM80 sounds even better than the OS80. So for the comparison at hand (SM80 vs SRX) I think the OS80 is a valid substitute. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes-it is a neo vs ferrite/ceramic "thing"

The size of the OS80 is actually small and easier to deal with-as compared to what else is "standard" in the outdoor installation world.

I agree the SM80 sounds better.  But a fiberglassed SM80 for outdoor usage pushes it out of the intended price point for the usage-for some people.  Others still prefer it.

One reason the OS 80 is so hard to handle is the lack of handles.

That was done for a reason.  A handle is a place that water can collect-and water is the devil in outdoor installs.

So it was made so that all water would run off-no matter how it was mounted.

Agreed that the OS80 would be a substitute to "get the idea across".

What you experienced is why the OS80 is getting real popular in outdoor installs.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 06, 2016, 05:25:55 pm
A few months ago when Debbie and I did our 'speaker shootout' we compared the OS80 to the SRX812. The OS80 is just a weatherized version of the SM80. It was all I had available at the time.

At 50' the difference was negligible. I'll even say the JBL sounded a little bit better as it was taking full advantage of the FIR processing in the box while the Danley was being fed with an old analog amp and zero processing.

But at 150' it was a night and day difference. The Danley sounded essentially the same at 150' as it did at 50'. The JBL sounded like it was coming from Sponge Bobs pineapple under the sea. Ok maybe it wasn't that bad, but it was a pretty drastic difference. It sounded like someone turned the JBL so it was facing away from us.




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Well assuming that the SM is even better than the OS.... then it is an exceptionally good speaker based on what we heard that day. Although I preferred the sound of the SRX from where we were standing and a little beyond that - which was about 30-50 feet away (Scott?)..,the difference in clarity as we got farther away was significant I must admit.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Keith Broughton on August 07, 2016, 08:21:53 am
,the difference in clarity as we got farther away was significant I must admit.
This is what I found when listening to an 80 system outdoors .
From 50' to 200', the sound was remarkably similar and the impression was, at distsnce,  the sound source was perceived closer than it actually was.
Quite an eye (ear) opener!
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 07, 2016, 09:10:26 am
This is what I found when listening to an 80 system outdoors .
From 50' to 200', the sound was remarkably similar and the impression was, at distsnce,  the sound source was perceived closer than it actually was.
Quite an eye (ear) opener!
It's not just the SM80, but it shows what happens when the sound starts out from a SINGLE point (1 source is what I call it) vs separate points in space.

A single cabinet with a woofer and horn is NOT 1 source-The sound (over an octave to 2) is coming from different physical locations.

It is for this reason that line arrays don't "carry" as far as people are told by marketing depts.  And why they are falling out of favor in large stadiums-ESPECIALLY when people hear the difference side by side.

I feel the interference issues between devices and multiple boxes is going to be "the next big thing".

Yes the Line arrays greatly improved over the previous "piles of boxes" (in one plane anyway), there is still plenty of room for improvement in the other plane.

Once we get to 1 source of sound, like a person talking or an instrument playing, we will be closer to accurate reproduction.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Mike Pyle on August 07, 2016, 10:36:05 am
Considering the size of the SM80 horn relative to the high and mid horns in the SRX835, I expect that just the better pattern control would deliver greater clarity at those distances.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 07, 2016, 11:50:17 am
Considering the size of the SM80 horn relative to the high and mid horns in the SRX835, I expect that just the better pattern control would deliver greater clarity at those distances.
It takes large horns to control to decently low freq.

That is something that used to be standard from all the major manufacturers, but seems to be forgotten by most these days.

It STILL takes SIZE to control the pattern.

EVEN if you use line arrays and the interference pattern that lowers sound quality, you STILL have to make the line tall enough to have the pattern control.

You just get to pay more and carry more weight and more amps to do so.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 07, 2016, 12:14:06 pm
It takes large horns to control to decently low freq.

That is something that used to be standard from all the major manufacturers, but seems to be forgotten by most these days.

It STILL takes SIZE to control the pattern.

EVEN if you use line arrays and the interference pattern that lowers sound quality, you STILL have to make the line tall enough to have the pattern control.

You just get to pay more and carry more weight and more amps to do so.

Size matters.  One of the immutable characteristics of audio.  Sometimes too small, sometimes too large, like Alice.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 07, 2016, 12:41:06 pm
That's what I like about large scale sound reinforcement, you can't BS the laws of physics.

JR
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jay Marr on August 07, 2016, 12:47:26 pm
Size matters.  One of the immutable characteristics of audio.  Sometimes too small, sometimes too large, like Alice.
I think that's goldilocks.....
And pathetic that this is my only contribution to the conversation...
Carry on....
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 07, 2016, 12:48:29 pm
What do you do if you have a larger area to cover than one single point source is capable of covering?

If you add another "source" wouldn't you have overlapping frequencies causing some cancellations?

What you be a good solution?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 07, 2016, 01:13:10 pm
What do you do if you have a larger area to cover than one single point source is capable of covering?

If you add another "source" wouldn't you have overlapping frequencies causing some cancellations?

What you be a good solution?
That is the advantage of a LARGE horn-with all the passbands mounted on it.

Because of the pattern control, the interference to the adjacent area is greatly reduced.

When you have small horns, they will easily spill over into other areas.

You have the greatest interaction when the levels are the same or close to the same.

If one of the signals is 6 or 10dB lower, then the interaction is minimal.

At the freq where the horns start to lose pattern control (if they are large enough), they are usually close enough so they actually couple together without interference.

Of course this depends on what the particular cabinets are and how large the horn is vs the radiation pattern.

The narrower the horn radiation or coverage pattern, the LARGER it has to be to have the same control as a wider pattern.

That is the reason that small wide pattern horns have control down lower than some larger narrower pattern horns.

It is also the exact reason that line arrays that typically have very narrow pattern horns (10* is a nominal number), only have pattern control in the top octave.

Below that, they are just spraying sound and interfering with the other elements in the array.

This is why you have multiple arrivals at a single listening position.  The horns are not large enough to cover a specific area alone.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 07, 2016, 01:27:33 pm
The narrower the horn radiation or coverage pattern, the LARGER it has to be to have the same control as a wider pattern.

That is the reason that small wide pattern horns have control down lower than some larger narrower pattern horns.

It is also the exact reason that line arrays that typically have very narrow pattern horns (10* is a nominal number), only have pattern control in the top octave.
I guess it's a good thing it's only the top octave of a line array that relies on the horn's pattern control, the lower octaves using the "column" pattern control.
Quote
Below that, they are just spraying sound and interfering with the other elements in the array.
See above.

Mac
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 07, 2016, 03:52:36 pm
I guess it's a good thing it's only the top octave of a line array that relies on the horn's pattern control, the lower octaves using the "column" pattern control.See above.

Mac
The "column pattern control" is great for steady state signals. 

But for impulsive signals (like drums or anything that is "struck"-like the pick sounds of a guitar), the different arrivals will result in a smeared sound, which sounds dull.

A source that has a single arrival will sound more like the original sound than one that arrives at different times.

Of course the freq that are affected depend on the listeners position in relation to the source of different arrivals.

This changes with different listening positions.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 07, 2016, 04:12:04 pm
The "column pattern control" is great for steady state signals. 

But for impulsive signals (like drums or anything that is "struck"-like the pick sounds of a guitar), the different arrivals will result in a smeared sound, which sounds dull.

A source that has a single arrival will sound more like the original sound than one that arrives at different times.

Of course the freq that are affected depend on the listeners position in relation to the source of different arrivals.

This changes with different listening positions.

In a column with only 1 size of driver covering all frequencies that is true, however most modern "line arrays" are multi way and multi amped. The impulse by nature of its fast rise time is relegated by the crossover to the high frequency section of the system. Lower frequencies are sent to those parts of the system optimized for that band.

Yes, a single arrival is the best theoretical solution, but since there seems to be only 1 manufacturer of large format single point systems, and they seem disinterested in marketing to the touring concert industry, there will continue to be many great sounding systems using other methods to achieve high quality results.

Mac
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 07, 2016, 04:31:46 pm
In a column with only 1 size of driver covering all frequencies that is true, however most modern "line arrays" are multi way and multi amped. The impulse by nature of its fast rise time is relegated by the crossover to the high frequency section of the system. Lower frequencies are sent to those parts of the system optimized for that band.

Yes, a single arrival is the best theoretical solution, but since there seems to be only 1 manufacturer of large format single point systems, and they seem disinterested in marketing to the touring concert industry, there will continue to be many great sounding systems using other methods to achieve high quality results.

Mac
But the HF drivers are usually crossed over around 1-2Khz.

If the horn controls down to 6Khz (give or take depending on the size and pattern) that leaves a couple of octaves of drivers that will have different arrival times.

I still hold by my prediction I made a couple of years ago-around the year 2020 we will start to see a new trend.

And this kind of follows sound system history.

Around every 20yrs there is a change.  There is a big grey area of overlapping usage and acceptance.

I way I figure it, components in different cabinets ruled from the 60s to the 80s.  In the early 80s, the "one box" solutions started coming out (KF850-S4-TMS3-MSL3-3x3 etc).

Around the turn of the century Lacoustics started the line array solution.

Each of these solutions was better than the predecessors.

So 2020 will be 20yrs later.

We will see how things pan out and what the market accepts.

Some parts of the market are more profitable than others, which dictates how companies target specific markets.

Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 07, 2016, 05:01:40 pm
That is the advantage of a LARGE horn-with all the passbands mounted on it.

Because of the pattern control, the interference to the adjacent area is greatly reduced.

When you have small horns, they will easily spill over into other areas.

You have the greatest interaction when the levels are the same or close to the same.

If one of the signals is 6 or 10dB lower, then the interaction is minimal.

At the freq where the horns start to lose pattern control (if they are large enough), they are usually close enough so they actually couple together without interference.

Of course this depends on what the particular cabinets are and how large the horn is vs the radiation pattern.

The narrower the horn radiation or coverage pattern, the LARGER it has to be to have the same control as a wider pattern.

That is the reason that small wide pattern horns have control down lower than some larger narrower pattern horns.

It is also the exact reason that line arrays that typically have very narrow pattern horns (10* is a nominal number), only have pattern control in the top octave.

Below that, they are just spraying sound and interfering with the other elements in the array.

This is why you have multiple arrivals at a single listening position.  The horns are not large enough to cover a specific area alone.

That makes perfect since to me for a single point source.

What if you needed to add another in an effort to cover more area, such as a fan shaped room? Now that you have 2 "boxes/sources" wouldn't you, at some point, have some overlapping frequencies between the 2 sources as you move farther away?

Would a "box" with a larger horn better control the patterns thus making for less interference between the 2 sources until you get down to lower frequencies?

What happens to the sound in the lower frequencies?



Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 07, 2016, 05:40:32 pm
That makes perfect since to me for a single point source.

What if you needed to add another in an effort to cover more area, such as a fan shaped room? Now that you have 2 "boxes/sources" wouldn't you, at some point, have some overlapping frequencies between the 2 sources as you move farther away?

Would a "box" with a larger horn better control the patterns thus making for less interference between the 2 sources until you get down to lower frequencies?

What happens to the sound in the lower frequencies?
It is the same answer as the one you quoted.  that was the answer to the same question-or am I missing something?

It depends on the particular box and how well it PROPERLY arrays (NOT physically alone) with other boxes.

If the box arrays properly, then all you do is add another box.

HINT: The first thing to look for in a truly arrayable box is the cut angle.  The cut angle should be 1/2 of the rated pattern of the box.  So for a 60* box, the side angles should be 30*.

If the box is not arrayable horizontally (none of the line arrays that I am aware of are horizontally arrayable-at least properly), then you will have some interaction around some seats.

How much interaction depends on the design of the boxes.  If the sources come from different physical locations (like all line arrays and most "point sources"), then you will not only have different arrival times from each SINGLE box, when you add that to a second box (intended for a separate seating area), you have even more interactions.

If the sound is coming from a single location in each box, the interaction is still there, but not as bad as with multiple arrivals

Everything is a matter of compromise, and understanding the compromises is key towards understanding the problems.

But the "basic theme" is that with large horns, there is less interaction between boxes pointed in different areas than with boxes with small horns.

Line arrays can control the vertical dispersion, but there is nothing they can do in the horizontal.

YES there are some boxes that have "moveable fins" for the horn patterns.

But, once again, look at the SIZE.  It is still small, so it only affects the higher freq and does nothing even down into the midrange area.

But people like to "believe" that it does. 

Just like having a small rotatable horn,  people like to "believe" that rotating it will some how keep energy off of the walls.

Yes the upper octave or so, but not a big difference over a wide range.

Yes, details like this do matter.  Or else people can keep on "believing" things are acting different than they actually do in the real world


Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Tom Danley on August 07, 2016, 06:33:06 pm
In a column with only 1 size of driver covering all frequencies that is true, however most modern "line arrays" are multi way and multi amped. The impulse by nature of its fast rise time is relegated by the crossover to the high frequency section of the system. Lower frequencies are sent to those parts of the system optimized for that band.

Yes, a single arrival is the best theoretical solution, but since there seems to be only 1 manufacturer of large format single point systems, and they seem disinterested in marketing to the touring concert industry, there will continue to be many great sounding systems using other methods to achieve high quality results.

Mac

Hi Mac
The thing is, there are two ways to look at arrays, the first is the steady state mode which is the common view, here the sources that are producing the same signal radiate sound which arrives in different phase relationships which either add constructively, or subtract or cancel each other -or- anywhere in between these two extremes.  One can alter the phase or time each source radiates in order to have them add in one location but since the path lengths from each source to ones ears are different when you move to a different location, the correction for one place will not work somewhere else.  Also these sources radiate independently and so when you double the number of boxes in an array, the SPL goes up about 3dB plus a little bit as is normal for separate sources.
The other view is the time view, where steady state signals add constructively when the phase difference is less than + - 120 degrees and at any N even 360 degree shift, an impulsive signal only adds when they are aligned in time and this can also be achieved in just one location with multiple sources when the different time of flight for each source is accounted for.
The latter problem is solved by only having one radiating source and this is what the single source horns do. 
This way, if youíre in front, your hearing what measures like, radiates like, sounds like a single driver in a constant directivity horn.   This was not easy to arrive at btw.    I have refrained from discussion the ďEnglish arrayĒ in the other thread as Dave Martin was a friend and one of few horn guys there were back in the Servodrive days and I like what horns can do although they are harder to design.  I did the lab sub for fun what 15 years or so ago, but these have taken many years of effort to figure out and get to where they are now, they have been my lifeís work these last 15 or 16 years aiming at acoustic  targets painted by Don Davis and Dick Heyser.

Ivan and I have posted here for ages and both of us mixed bands, Ivan even had a sound company for many years so itís not that we are disinterested in touring sound, not at all.     Rather, the massive amount of marketing of line arrays and resistance to anything combined with the ďriderĒ problem and everything else is so tremendous that we went after a market that was already unhappy with the way line arrays sounded AND needed something even more powerful, large venues and stadiums.   

It has been said that a dollar spent marketing the image of science brings in more sales than a dollar spent on science.  I would like to think we have proven them wrong putting our eggs in the technology basket, at least so far, we donít advertise, we donít even have a marketing person,  we donít give anything away, we donít provide kick backs or rebates to consultants and many other things normally associated with promotion.
   
What we do is give side by side demos to customers who want better sound. So far, we have about half the 100,000+ seat stadiums in the country and many smaller ones and other large venues like in Orlando and the part that makes Ivan especially frustrated, is having heard what he has heard in those large and even huge venues compared to most live sound shows. 

But we are not going to magically get on riders, that structure in part protects the existing market, without big advertising we are not going to convince the average sound person they can do a large show with a lot less gear or that one arrival on each side sounds a lot more like the input signal than an array of separate sources does.
So except for rare opportunities to discuss the acoustical differences here, there is little reason for most to even know what we are doing although a few here are using our smaller speakers successfully. Eventually someone in live sound will ask for a demo of J-3ís and thatís when thing will start to change.
Best Regards
Tom Danley
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 07, 2016, 06:48:48 pm
It is the same answer as the one you quoted.  that was the answer to the same question-or am I missing something?

It depends on the particular box and how well it PROPERLY arrays (NOT physically alone) with other boxes.

If the box arrays properly, then all you do is add another box.

HINT: The first thing to look for in a truly arrayable box is the cut angle.  The cut angle should be 1/2 of the rated pattern of the box.  So for a 60* box, the side angles should be 30*.

If the box is not arrayable horizontally (none of the line arrays that I am aware of are horizontally arrayable-at least properly), then you will have some interaction around some seats.

How much interaction depends on the design of the boxes.  If the sources come from different physical locations (like all line arrays and most "point sources"), then you will not only have different arrival times from each SINGLE box, when you add that to a second box (intended for a separate seating area), you have even more interactions.

If the sound is coming from a single location in each box, the interaction is still there, but not as bad as with multiple arrivals

Everything is a matter of compromise, and understanding the compromises is key towards understanding the problems.

But the "basic theme" is that with large horns, there is less interaction between boxes pointed in different areas than with boxes with small horns.

Line arrays can control the vertical dispersion, but there is nothing they can do in the horizontal.

YES there are some boxes that have "moveable fins" for the horn patterns.

But, once again, look at the SIZE.  It is still small, so it only affects the higher freq and does nothing even down into the midrange area.

But people like to "believe" that it does. 

Just like having a small rotatable horn,  people like to "believe" that rotating it will some how keep energy off of the walls.

Yes the upper octave or so, but not a big difference over a wide range.

Yes, details like this do matter.  Or else people can keep on "believing" things are acting different than they actually do in the real world

The first was a general overall question.

The second was lower frequency and distance question.

I probably didn't ask it correctly...still learning
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 07, 2016, 07:15:04 pm
The first was a general overall question.

The second was lower frequency and distance question.

I probably didn't ask it correctly...still learning
It would take a REALLY LARGE horn to control down to the lower freq.

So at some point, the "normal large horns" start to lose pattern control.

However-since the wavelengths are large at this point, there is more "freedom" in the spacing.

As the freq goes higher and higher the distances get smaller and smaller in order to have the couple without interference.

So the cabinets can be a little bit apart and they will couple without any (or many) ill effects and sum.

Of course this is freq and distance dependent.

The same thing happens to the low freq of a line array or any other normal cabinet. 

Our ears can "tolerate" more "irregularities" in the low freq than they can in the midrange and higher freq.

It is much easier to work with lower freq (because there are less of them :)  )  The detail and clarity come from the upper freq.  Hence the reason to get that part right.

Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 07, 2016, 07:28:52 pm
It would take a REALLY LARGE horn to control down to the lower freq.

So at some point, the "normal large horns" start to lose pattern control.

However-since the wavelengths are large at this point, there is more "freedom" in the spacing.

As the freq goes higher and higher the distances get smaller and smaller in order to have the couple without interference.

So the cabinets can be a little bit apart and they will couple without any (or many) ill effects and sum.

Of course this is freq and distance dependent.

The same thing happens to the low freq of a line array or any other normal cabinet. 

Our ears can "tolerate" more "irregularities" in the low freq than they can in the midrange and higher freq.

It is much easier to work with lower freq (because there are less of them :)  )  The detail and clarity come from the upper freq.  Hence the reason to get that part right.

Thanks.

Great info
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 08, 2016, 07:28:50 am
Thanks.

Great info
Also consider this.

For a really wide setup, you many not need the "outfills" to actually have any bass response.

If the main cabinet(s) are loosing pattern control, there may be plenty of bass energy in the side seats.

So all you have to do is add some mids and highs.

So the low freq energy between the 2 hangs is not an issue-because one of them may not have any bass coming out of it.

As usual-it depends.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Lance Hallmark on September 29, 2016, 01:18:08 pm
Anyone in north or central Florida feel free to come on by. I've got TH118, SM80 and an SH50 in the shop right now. Bring your favorite tunes

We'll have to get together sometime. I'd love to do a SM80/TH-118 comparo to my JTR Noesis 3TX/Orbit Shifter rig. I'm in the Tampa Bay area.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 29, 2016, 04:59:45 pm
We'll have to get together sometime. I'd love to do a SM80/TH-118 comparo to my JTR Noesis 3TX/Orbit Shifter rig. I'm in the Tampa Bay area.
If you do please count me in!  I don't have any gear of that level to contribute but I'll be in that market sooner or later and would love a chance to listen.  I'm down by the Space Center but am happy to drive over if the opportunity is open for guests!
Title: Danley Demo
Post by: Ray Aberle on September 29, 2016, 05:27:49 pm
If you do please count me in!  I don't have any gear of that level to contribute but I'll be in that market sooner or later and would love a chance to listen.  I'm down by the Space Center but am happy to drive over if the opportunity is open for guests!
I'm replying simply to change the Subject line from the OP's to the Danley Demo planning. (It seems negative to keep having that "I'm stupid" comment everywhere! ;) )

Thanks!

-Ray
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: lindsay Dean on September 30, 2016, 02:40:17 pm
its like rain on your wedding day
Title: Re: Danley Demo
Post by: Craig Leerman on September 30, 2016, 02:46:59 pm
Questions about where to buy speakers and quality issues about different types of speakers are going to be a moot point in 3 years as contractors build more houses next to performing spaces. Noise complaints from the dumbasses who bought next to a shed will cause a shift in concert audio. In the future, attendees will dial into a party line on their phone and listen to live music via their ear buds on their phone. The next generation has already been trained to hear music in this way. If they want more bass, they can pay extra to sit in the concert seats that have buttkickers attached.

Concert speakers will be like antique cars, great things of the past.  :'(
Title: Re: Danley Demo
Post by: Lance Hallmark on September 30, 2016, 02:59:38 pm
Questions about where to buy speakers and quality issues about different types of speakers are going to be a moot point in 3 years as contractors build more houses next to performing spaces. Noise complaints from the dumbasses who bought next to a shed will cause a shift in concert audio. In the future, attendees will dial into a party line on their phone and listen to live music via their ear buds on their phone. The next generation has already been trained to hear music in this way. If they want more bass, they can pay extra to sit in the concert seats that have buttkickers attached.

Concert speakers will be like antique cars, great things of the past.  :'(

Or invest in a Company that can provide serious sound treatments and soundproofing.
Title: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Andrew Henderson on September 30, 2016, 03:02:38 pm
Questions about where to buy speakers and quality issues about different types of speakers are going to be a moot point in 3 years as contractors build more houses next to performing spaces. Noise complaints from the dumbasses who bought next to a shed will cause a shift in concert audio. In the future, attendees will dial into a party line on their phone and listen to live music via their ear buds on their phone. The next generation has already been trained to hear music in this way. If they want more bass, they can pay extra to sit in the concert seats that have buttkickers attached.

Concert speakers will be like antique cars, great things of the past.  :'(


We are headed there. Snarky Puppy, anyone? http://m.livedesignonline.com/audio-technica-provides-right-solution-snarky-puppy-s-unique-recording-method (http://m.livedesignonline.com/audio-technica-provides-right-solution-snarky-puppy-s-unique-recording-method)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Danley Demo
Post by: Tom Roche on September 30, 2016, 03:43:58 pm
Questions about where to buy speakers and quality issues about different types of speakers are going to be a moot point in 3 years as contractors build more houses next to performing spaces. Noise complaints from the dumbasses who bought next to a shed will cause a shift in concert audio. In the future, attendees will dial into a party line on their phone and listen to live music via their ear buds on their phone. The next generation has already been trained to hear music in this way. If they want more bass, they can pay extra to sit in the concert seats that have buttkickers attached.

Concert speakers will be like antique cars, great things of the past.  :'(

Interesting insight, but you see this happening in 3 years (or thereabouts)?  A big part of the experience for me is the big sound of a live performance.  I suppose that's the difference between my generation and the newer ones.  Your point reminds me of the people who move right next to an Air Force base that's been there since WWII and then complain about the jets taking off.  I hit my 30-year association with the USAF next month and NEVER tire of hearing these miracle machines fly overhead.
Title: Re: Danley Demo
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 30, 2016, 03:57:18 pm
Interesting insight, but you see this happening in 3 years (or thereabouts)?  A big part of the experience for me is the big sound of a live performance.  I suppose that's the difference between my generation and the newer ones.  Your point reminds me of the people who move right next to an Air Force base that's been there since WWII and then complain about the jets taking off.  I hit my 30-year association with the USAF next month and NEVER tire of hearing these miracle machines fly overhead.

I don't want to drift off into the weeds of societal issues, but if one buys or builds a home next to a factory, airport or other facility that already makes a lot of racket and then have the chutzpah to complain about the noise, I hope that home becomes infested with termites.

The reason elected officials side with the residents is because in most jurisdictions the tax rate on private residences generates the highest revenues of all real property taxes.
Title: Re: Danley Demo
Post by: Mike Diack on September 30, 2016, 09:34:10 pm
Concert speakers will be like antique cars, great things of the past.  :'(
They already are, replaced by those nasty "J" shaped things hanging from the ceiling :-)
M
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: John L Nobile on September 30, 2016, 10:50:27 pm

We are headed there. Snarky Puppy, anyone? http://m.livedesignonline.com/audio-technica-provides-right-solution-snarky-puppy-s-unique-recording-method (http://m.livedesignonline.com/audio-technica-provides-right-solution-snarky-puppy-s-unique-recording-method)


Love that band. Recording with a live audience explains the energy in their songs. Cut and paste should be for scrapbooks not music.
Title: Re: Danley Demo
Post by: Craig Leerman on October 02, 2016, 04:28:47 pm
I don't want to drift off into the weeds of societal issues, but if one buys or builds a home next to a factory, airport or other facility that already makes a lot of racket and then have the chutzpah to complain about the noise, I hope that home becomes infested with termites.

The reason elected officials side with the residents is because in most jurisdictions the tax rate on private residences generates the highest revenues of all real property taxes.

There was a pig farm just outside of Las Vegas. Been there for years before Las Vegas was little more than a few casinos downtown. Developers have built homes near the pig farm and the smell is really bad. For years people have complained and recently the city of North Las Vegas bought out the pig farmers and they will be moving farther outside of town near a place called Apex. Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs did an episode on the pig farm.  It seems the pigs eat pretty good. They get the scraps from nice buffets like the

Craig
Sent from my iPad
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Andrew Henderson on October 02, 2016, 07:45:04 pm
There was a pig farm just outside of Las Vegas. Been there for years before Las Vegas was little more than a few casinos downtown. Developers have built homes near the pig farm and the smell is really bad. For years people have complained and recently the city of North Las Vegas bought out the pig farmers and they will be moving farther outside of town near a place called Apex. Mike Rowe from Dirty Jobs did an episode on the pig farm.  It seems the pigs eat pretty good. They get the scraps from nice buffets like the

Craig
Sent from my iPad
Cliffhanger....
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 02, 2016, 08:43:26 pm
Cliffhanger....
There are a lot of really nice buffets in Vegas.

It is NOT your normal buffet.

Of course they don't cost like others either---------
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 03, 2016, 03:26:02 am
There are a lot of really nice buffets in Vegas.

It is NOT your normal buffet.

Of course they don't cost like others either---------

I don't know what the Cliffhanger is but the buffet at Bellagio is an experience beyond words.

 
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Jeff Bankston on October 03, 2016, 03:25:08 pm
I'm apparently an idiot
Dont feel bad , I am also an idiot.

 :o
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Tom Roche on October 03, 2016, 04:52:44 pm
I don't know what the Cliffhanger is but the buffet at Bellagio is an experience beyond words.

Good or bad experience?  ;)

I ate at the Bellagio in 2009 on my way to San Diego and thought it was decent, though not up to all the ballyhoo expressed by a number of folks.  My prior Vegas experience was in '88 during a two-week job-related stint.  I recall the buffets being really good back then, and stupid cheap.
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 03, 2016, 05:10:55 pm
I recall the buffets being really good back then, and stupid cheap.
Years ago part of the "draw" was the cheap buffets. 

That changed quite a bit in the last decade or so.

One of the best deals I got several years ago was "24 hours of food for $39"

You pay 1 price and then can go to any of 7 of the best buffets and eat all you want.  As long as you get into the last one before the 24 hrs is up.

So if you planned it, you have your first meal kinda late in the day.  That way you get 2 dinners, lunch and breakfast for $39.

Which is pretty cheap for Vegas these days.

I didn't see that the last couple of times I was there however.

I guess they figured it out :(
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Mike Pyle on October 03, 2016, 05:15:51 pm
They have food in Las Vegas?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 03, 2016, 07:32:12 pm
Good or bad experience?  ;)

I ate at the Bellagio in 2009 on my way to San Diego and thought it was decent, though not up to all the ballyhoo expressed by a number of folks.  My prior Vegas experience was in '88 during a two-week job-related stint.  I recall the buffets being really good back then, and stupid cheap.

Very good.  I also know it's not cheap.

My partner in my airplane loves to play cards.  I am not a gambler, but I do enjoy putzing around Vegas so I will often tag along just to pickup the chips he drops and comp tickets.  When they comp him a trip he can bring a guest or two also, they even pay for first class airfare.

They treat their frequent guests really well.  We don't have to stand in line to get in or to get food.  We also don't have to sit near the people that have to told not to eat directly from the buffet table.  The night I was there the Sushi was as fresh and on par with some of the best I have ever had.  When I expressed dissapointment that they didn't have a rare cut of prime rib left that had a good nice size hunk of rib (or is that loin? the darker meat on the edge with a thin layer of fat delineating it ) they cut into another roast.  I bet I ate $100 retail worth of king crag legs.  It was all free too.

We were at the Rio last year for a convention and they delivered value but the Bellagio was epic.  The free room we get too is off the hook. 
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: John L Nobile on October 04, 2016, 09:20:43 am
Is it just me or does free food and booze always seem to taste better?
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Lance Rectanus on October 04, 2016, 12:00:54 pm
Is it just me or does free food and booze always seem to taste better?

+1!!!!
Title: Re: Point taken - Guess I'm stupid and don't know how the world works
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 04, 2016, 12:21:53 pm
Is it just me or does free food and booze always seem to taste better?

No.

I can tell you that back stage catering can be a lovely eating experience or can induce artificially fond memories of your sister's (or your own) first home economics meal.  If you're working on a show where the crew is fed with along with touring production, look for Dega.  You'll be eating well.

We had a casino gig that included meals at their buffet restaurant and we ate there enough that we could tell if Chef had been through recently or the line staff was running the kitchen.