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Title: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Michael Mullin on June 19, 2016, 12:57:09 pm
Has anyone used or heard these subs ?
Not the older DSR118 but the DXS18.

Thoughts or comparisons?

cheers,
Mike
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: James Paul on June 19, 2016, 03:14:14 pm
I took delivery on a pair with covers 2 months back, after a limited but convincing enough of a demonstration at Winter NAMM 2016.

Pluses; 7 year warranty. Switchable thru ports. Selectable x-over points, DSP, & cardioid functions. Standard 35mm & M20 pole sockets. Optional Functional Covers and wheels available. Ply construction. Line-X.

Cons; Comparatively larger, heavier, and visually unappealing amongst the likely competition.

My impressions are that these are not only a huge improvement over the lackluster DSR118 in the sound tonality and spl output alone, but are now more properly I/O, control, and feature equipped.

Using the QSC KW181 as a standard of reference for this class of self-powered single sub, with only ear comparisons, I find the DXS18 to not only stand their own against, but even hit harder and lower.
I doubt many, if any, would replace existing inventory of comparative brands with this relatively newcomer, but for someone looking to add or start, these can and should be of consideration.

Yamaha has a contender in the ring now.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Thomas Le on June 19, 2016, 03:41:51 pm
I took delivery on a pair with covers 2 months back, after a limited but convincing enough of a demonstration at Winter NAMM 2016.

Pluses; 7 year warranty. Switchable thru ports. Selectable x-over points, DSP, & cardioid functions. Standard 35mm & M20 pole sockets. Optional Functional Covers and wheels available. Ply construction. Line-X.

Cons; Comparatively larger, heavier, and visually unappealing amongst the likely competition.

My impressions are that these are not only a huge improvement over the lackluster DSR118 in the sound tonality and spl output alone, but are now more properly I/O, control, and feature equipped.

Using the QSC KW181 as a standard of reference for this class of self-powered single sub, with only ear comparisons, I find the DXS18 to not only stand their own against, but even hit harder and lower.
I doubt many, if any, would replace existing inventory of comparative brands with this relatively newcomer, but for someone looking to add or start, these can and should be of consideration.

Yamaha has a contender in the ring now.

Interesting comparison regarding tone, so the DXS18 doesn't exhibit the "one note wonder" of regular band pass subs?
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Roland Clarke on June 19, 2016, 05:06:21 pm
I would second the above concerns.  I'm yet to hear a band-pass sub that delivers real bass not 1 or 2 note "quasi bass".  As Scotty from Star Trek used to say, "you canna change the laws of physics".
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Scott Bolt on June 19, 2016, 06:53:03 pm
Hey James,

It looks like you have a pair of DSR112's on top there.

Can the DXS18's keep up with them?

I took delivery on a pair with covers 2 months back, after a limited but convincing enough of a demonstration at Winter NAMM 2016.

Pluses; 7 year warranty. Switchable thru ports. Selectable x-over points, DSP, & cardioid functions. Standard 35mm & M20 pole sockets. Optional Functional Covers and wheels available. Ply construction. Line-X.

Cons; Comparatively larger, heavier, and visually unappealing amongst the likely competition.

My impressions are that these are not only a huge improvement over the lackluster DSR118 in the sound tonality and spl output alone, but are now more properly I/O, control, and feature equipped.

Using the QSC KW181 as a standard of reference for this class of self-powered single sub, with only ear comparisons, I find the DXS18 to not only stand their own against, but even hit harder and lower.
I doubt many, if any, would replace existing inventory of comparative brands with this relatively newcomer, but for someone looking to add or start, these can and should be of consideration.

Yamaha has a contender in the ring now.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Gordon Brinton on June 20, 2016, 07:30:18 am
...My impressions are that these are not only a huge improvement over the lackluster DSR118 in the sound tonality and spl output alone, but are now more properly I/O, control, and feature equipped...

You mean you've actually compared the DXS sub to the DSR sub? I take it you own them both? Could you elaborate a bit more on your findings? I am interested in hearing all about how they compare in the real world.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Michael Mullin on June 20, 2016, 02:14:34 pm
Thanks for your observations James. I have been using
RCF Art 905as subs (15") for years and although they are a band pass design
their output is very even in their specified working range.
I'm now looking for something that goes lower and louder.

Is there anyone who can directly compare Yamaha DXS18's with RCF Art 905as ?

regards,

Mike
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Doug Fowler on June 20, 2016, 05:04:06 pm
I took delivery on a pair with covers 2 months back, after a limited but convincing enough of a demonstration at Winter NAMM 2016.

Pluses; 7 year warranty. Switchable thru ports. Selectable x-over points, DSP, & cardioid functions. Standard 35mm & M20 pole sockets. Optional Functional Covers and wheels available. Ply construction. Line-X.

Cons; Comparatively larger, heavier, and visually unappealing amongst the likely competition.

My impressions are that these are not only a huge improvement over the lackluster DSR118 in the sound tonality and spl output alone, but are now more properly I/O, control, and feature equipped.

Using the QSC KW181 as a standard of reference for this class of self-powered single sub, with only ear comparisons, I find the DXS18 to not only stand their own against, but even hit harder and lower.
I doubt many, if any, would replace existing inventory of comparative brands with this relatively newcomer, but for someone looking to add or start, these can and should be of consideration.

Yamaha has a contender in the ring now.

It's OK for the small operators, and I know that's intended market.  But, there are plenty of regional operators that need small powered subs for small corporates and such.  These look just goofy enough to make me pass on these for that purpose.

Kudos to Yamaha for upping their game, though, if these are enough of an improvement over the past offering.  Yamaha has always been "just behind" the usual suspects for club/bar/small operators for a variety of reasons.

Yamaha has the benefit of NEXO engineering now.  There's no reason they can't compete in the SRX/QRX/etc market, but they have to turn it up a few notches.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 20, 2016, 05:59:35 pm
It's OK for the small operators, and I know that's intended market.  But, there are plenty of regional operators that need small powered subs for small corporates and such.  These look just goofy enough to make me pass on these for that purpose.
Someone must have thought that they looked purposeful or something.  Interesting as I have a DXS12 I use for drummers and it has a full front grille that you have to catch in just the right light to realize that it's a bandpass cabinet.  As part of a drum monitor set up being peaky isn't a problem since the drummer really just wants to hear the timing of his kick and the bass player from it.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Gordon Brinton on June 20, 2016, 08:47:42 pm
What does this mean?

(From their website)
Output power:   Dynamic:1020W / Continuous: 800W
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 21, 2016, 02:29:53 am
What does this mean?

(From their website)
Output power:   Dynamic:1020W / Continuous: 800W

Many vendors take liberty with these terms.  In my mind continuous means you can run a sine wave into it all day long and source 800 watts to the driver without the amplification producing distortion beyond the often omitted specification that should accompany this spec (along with a frequency range).  To me it also implies the driver can sink this power without damage.

Dynamic power is what it can do in short bursts and the ration of Continuous to Dynamic is a rough indication of how overbuilt the amp is.  Small the delta the less reserve.  Less than 3db of dynamic power over continuous has no real operational effect on the system in question.

Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on June 21, 2016, 06:15:05 pm
What does this mean?

(From their website)
Output power:   Dynamic:1020W / Continuous: 800W

That means its an 800w box and the manufacturer is more realistic than most with the amp specs.

Continuous power is based on a bandwidth limited pink noise signal with 6dB crest factor, and dynamic or peak is often simply listed as double that regardless if the amp can produce it or not. Sine waves haven't been used in the design or specification of amplifiers(or speaker drivers for that matter) in a decade or more so none of those currently on the market will be capable of sustaining a sine wave at full rated output for more than a couple seconds at most before thermal protection either reduces output or cuts it off completely. And that is fine because IMO "music" doesn't include sine wave that go on for hours and hours and I really don't miss moving 150lb speakers and amp racks.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: James Paul on June 21, 2016, 10:20:22 pm
So to respond with answers and attempts to offer clarity, and opine ;

IME no obvious `one note wonder' symptom.

Pairs well and keeps up with the DSR112s for my needs and intended use.

The OP did not inquire about a direct comparison between a DSR118 & DXS18, and since I do not own or have access to a DSR118, no direct A/B comparison between the aforementioned was made.

The `lackluster' reference about DSR118s is derived from my previous dealer showroom demonstrations & comparisons 1st qtr 2012, which happens to be of similar impressions throughout the web.

Note that the DXS18 is an addition to the DXS line and not a replacement for the DSR118, as the DSR118 is currently still listed as an available for sale on Yamaha.com and authorized retailers.

Too`goofy` in appearance for prime time? I suggest this an obvious case of form follows function. The factory optional Functional Covers suffice for my needs and such concerns. Socks, spouses, or speakers, goofy to one, golden to another.

Real world experience? Indoor or outdoor with the pictured system, playback or live, 120hz HPF, normal setting, all powered on a 20A circuit, sounds balanced and neutral. Live bass guitar/ kick combo punch does not disappoint. Ply construction, convection cooled, and AFAIK, an unmatched warranty of 7 years bodes for confidence in ownership & operation through 2023 and likely beyond. But of course, YMMV.

As well as I am satisfied and impressed with the DXS18, I must assume there are some DSR118s users who are equally satisfied and impressed with those boxes. Tesla and Yugo, 4 tires each, similar in basic design premise & function, but different in applications, expectations, and experiences.

As to Yamaha always `just behind` the usual suspects, to be fair, I submit as evidence a bit to the contrary that IME the Yamaha Club Series SM and CM variants are a not too uncommon sight in bars/clubs/HOW and with small operators & regional bands.
Furthermore there are the some two dozen plus LAB member owner/operators of DSR112s of this forum that post with a majority of positive experiences. Exceptions perhaps, but not to be discounted.

With an earnest attempt at some objectivity, I ask not to mistake this post as Fan Boy flag waving,  despite as obviously subjective a viewpoint from which I type.

Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Gordon Brinton on June 21, 2016, 10:24:30 pm
I did a little digging and found this...

Quote
Dynamic power indicates the actual power this amplifier will deliver to the woofer under normal operating conditions. While the FTC power rating indicates power available on a continuous, long-term basis, subwoofers do not rely on that type of power. Instead, the amplifier is called upon to deliver large, short-term peaks of power to be able to support the wide dynamics required by today's digital music and movie formats. In addition to the required FTC power rating, we've provided the dynamic power rating as a better indication of the product's true performance.

BTW, the DSR sub is rated exactly the same way in the manual spec sheet. It must have the same amplifier inside as the DXS.

EDIT: Removed incorrect information after further study.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Scott Bolt on June 21, 2016, 10:25:00 pm
Sure would like to hear a comparison of a DXS18 to a PRX718XLF.

I really wanted a matched set, but the DSR118's just didn't have the gas.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Gordon Brinton on June 21, 2016, 10:43:31 pm
Sure would like to hear a comparison of a DXS18 to a PRX718XLF.

I really wanted a matched set, but the DSR118's just didn't have the gas.

I disagree. I've used both PRX718XLF and the DSR118W in the wild. They've both withstood several hard-hitting rock shows with similar performance IMO. (It's funny to me that most of the nay-sayers are also non-owners.)
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 22, 2016, 12:12:52 am
Many vendors take liberty with these terms.  In my mind continuous means you can run pink noise (with 6db crest factor) into it all day long and source 800 watts to the driver without the amplification producing distortion beyond the often omitted specification that should accompany this spec (along with a frequency range).  To me it also implies the driver can sink this power without damage.

Dynamic power is what it can do in short bursts and the ration of Continuous to Dynamic is a rough indication of how overbuilt the amp is.  Small the delta the less reserve.  Less than 3db of dynamic power over continuous has no real operational effect on the system in question.


*** edited after being clarified on the type of signal used to quantify continuous power specification
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Michael Mullin on June 22, 2016, 12:19:55 am
Its interesting that on the original DSR series of speakers Yamaha lists a 3db down point for all the speakers including the DSR 118. (50hz)
That spec has disappeared on the DXS line of subwoofers. They only give a -10db spec now. ??? The DXS18 has -10db down point of 32hz.
Anybody know what the -3db down point might be on this sub?
I have a call into Yamaha Canada about that and also what the continuous SPL rating might be?

regards Mike
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: David Morison on June 22, 2016, 08:10:56 am
Its interesting that on the original DSR series of speakers Yamaha lists a 3db down point for all the speakers including the DSR 118. (50hz)
That spec has disappeared on the DXS line of subwoofers. They only give a -10db spec now. ??? The DXS18 has -10db down point of 32hz.
Anybody know what the -3db down point might be on this sub?
I have a call into Yamaha Canada about that and also what the continuous SPL rating might be?

regards Mike

It's not totally obvious, but there is a set of response curves in the download section of one of Yamaha's sites, I think the international one.

<googling intensifies> Yup, got it here:
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/speakers/dxs/downloads.jsp

Looks like -3 is about 50Hz in "Boost" mode (closest to the typical bandpass "one note wonder" shape) down to about 41Hz in "XTD LF" mode - presumably with some reduction in max volume as a result.

Cheers,
David.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on June 23, 2016, 07:16:10 pm
Had a chance to hear these subs today, a pair of the DXS 18's with a single DSR112 sitting on them.

Impressive output.  Definitely worth checking out in the size/weight vs output arena.

This DSR / DXS combo would be easily be my pick in the yammie, JBL, QSC, etc, family of offerings.
Even off axis I liked it better than the others on axis... not that my preferences mean a damn  ;D
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Scott Bolt on June 24, 2016, 09:55:06 pm
I disagree. I've used both PRX718XLF and the DSR118W in the wild. They've both withstood several hard-hitting rock shows with similar performance IMO. (It's funny to me that most of the nay-sayers are also non-owners.)
Hey Gordon,

Admittedly, I don't own the DSR118's.  I did do a side by side of them with the XLF's in the store though running both single subs clear up to clip.

It is possible that "in the wild" it would have sounded different.

I thought the DSR118's sounded good.  They just didn't punch as hard as the XLF's did to my ears.  YMMV.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Scott Bolt on June 24, 2016, 09:58:23 pm
Had a chance to hear these subs today, a pair of the DXS 18's with a single DSR112 sitting on them.

Impressive output.  Definitely worth checking out in the size/weight vs output arena.

This DSR / DXS combo would be easily be my pick in the yammie, JBL, QSC, etc, family of offerings.
Even off axis I liked it better than the others on axis... not that my preferences mean a damn  ;D

I have run my DSR112's in a 1 top over 2 subs combo with the XLF's and found that it is a fairly good match to my ears.  That would suggest that the DXS can hang with (or even possibly eclipse) the PRX718XLF in output.

It is interesting that you thought this rig was as good as the direct radiating subs.  Bandpass subs really get a thrashing in most forums for sound quality.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on June 26, 2016, 01:23:39 pm
I have run my DSR112's in a 1 top over 2 subs combo with the XLF's and found that it is a fairly good match to my ears.  That would suggest that the DXS can hang with (or even possibly eclipse) the PRX718XLF in output.

It is interesting that you thought this rig was as good as the direct radiating subs.  Bandpass subs really get a thrashing in most forums for sound quality.

I should carefully listen again to a wider range of material,......... to heed all the bandpass warnings.

All I know for sure, is that they more than held their own in a quick punching contest against KW181 and srx828sp.
Maybe they are a version of the Nexo LS18?   Anybody heard them?

And I guess i should ask what the physics are that make bandpass subs put out only one or two notes...?
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on June 26, 2016, 03:01:32 pm
And I guess i should ask what the physics are that make bandpass subs put out only one or two notes...?

The bandpass design consists of two chambers with the driver placed in the dividing wall between them, when both chambers are ported this yields a 6th order design that produces a narrow peaked response if both chambers are tuned to the same frequency, but if one chamber is tuned lower the response will be wider but have lower gain above the drivers natural output. In the distant past designers could only utilize drivers that were available and the design was most often used with smaller drivers to get greater output from a relatively small enclosure, but the drivers were seldom optimal for this design so we got classic one note wonders like the Bose BP502. But now designers can get custom drivers with any spec they want so designing a bandpass sub with broad uncolored response that really only has to cover 2 octaves at most for pro audio applications isn't as much of a problem, and it would seem that this is easier to do with an 18" driver too, the displacement of a cone this size means that the enclosure gain doesn't have to be as high so the resulting output is broader and more musical. The Turbo Milan 18b is also a bandpass and it sounded as good as the EV and JBL reflex subs it was lined up with at a showroom demo I got a while back.
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on June 26, 2016, 09:41:13 pm
The bandpass design consists of two chambers with the driver placed in the dividing wall between them, when both chambers are ported this yields a 6th order design that produces a narrow peaked response if both chambers are tuned to the same frequency, but if one chamber is tuned lower the response will be wider but have lower gain above the drivers natural output. In the distant past designers could only utilize drivers that were available and the design was most often used with smaller drivers to get greater output from a relatively small enclosure, but the drivers were seldom optimal for this design so we got classic one note wonders like the Bose BP502. But now designers can get custom drivers with any spec they want so designing a bandpass sub with broad uncolored response that really only has to cover 2 octaves at most for pro audio applications isn't as much of a problem, and it would seem that this is easier to do with an 18" driver too, the displacement of a cone this size means that the enclosure gain doesn't have to be as high so the resulting output is broader and more musical. The Turbo Milan 18b is also a bandpass and it sounded as good as the EV and JBL reflex subs it was lined up with at a showroom demo I got a while back.

Thanks Paul, very informative. 
Were the older designs 6th order both HP and LP?
If so wow, i see that would be really peaky if stacked to same frequency.
But if new drivers can spread tuning a couple of octaves, bandpass seems like no prob, especially for HP.........
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on June 27, 2016, 09:40:05 am
Were the older designs 6th order both HP and LP?
There are 4th order, 6th and even 8th order and the higher the order the harder it is to get good results.

The ideal target response for a bandpass would look something like this below, here you can see the gain it produces over a reflex design.

(http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/bandpass/6th-order-spl-vs-sono.gif)

But if the driver isn't optimal this is what you end up with.. a peaky 1 note response even with the chambers tuned to different frequencies..

(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee282/thegarynator/Car%20Audio/TheRoady/6thorderVsVented2.jpg)

And even if you have a suitable driver the actual response can have unpredicted response peaks that will require processing, and because the driver is unloaded below and above tuning and because there will be out of band harmonics steep high and low cur filters are also required. In the pic below the red and green lines are predictions and the blue is actual measured response.

(http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/bandpass/response-1m-vs-winisd.gif)
Title: Re: Yamaha DXS 18 subwoofer
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on June 27, 2016, 08:33:29 pm
Thx yet again ,  helpful generous post.

I'm beginning to see why bandpass designs are met with skepticism....