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Church and H.O.W. Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound Archive => Topic started by: Blanton Jones on November 06, 2005, 02:39:35 am

Title: Please Help Quick
Post by: Blanton Jones on November 06, 2005, 02:39:35 am
I've been placed in charge of installing the sound system in a new church we're building. I had my heart set on the Mackie SA1531's but I just found out that they're not flyable. I'm needing that same clarity and wattage in maybe a passive or anything flyable from a center cluster (pair). The new church will seat 500-750 people. I have to start purchasing next month and would greatly appreciate any usable info I can get.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Tom Young on November 06, 2005, 06:02:30 am
I don't see SA1531's in Mackie's current line up at their website.

Regardless, this line from Mackie is specified as 90x40 and while such a coverage pattern may be OK for the lower, short-throw element in a  cluster (rigging aside), it is not an appropriate device for the upper, long throw section.

You really need to hire someone who can design a loudspeaker system that provides proper coverage for your space. Just throwing up a loudspeaker that you happen to like is not the way we achieve clear and stable/linear sound reinforcement in any environment. If your space is acoustically challenging, this is all the more reason to strive to get the best devices into the system.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 06, 2005, 09:16:31 am
The way you can make a flyable speaker out of a non flyable one is to make a frame for the speaker to sit in and fly the frame.  Be sure to bolt the speaker to the frame.  NOW MIND YOU- the frame has to be rated for flying!

Why is your heart set on the Mackies?  Is it because of the way they sound-such as in a different room than yours-or have you heard them temp placed in the flying position in your room?  If you are going on sound alone, then they may not the be proper choice for your room.  

The proper speaker choice includes much more than just sound quality.  Things such as: dispertion angle-pattern control to a specific freq-output level-freq response-size-cost-arrayability (if needed) acoustics of the room-places to put the speakers etc all must be considered, before you go and buy a speaker that sounds good to you in a showroom.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Blanton Jones on November 06, 2005, 04:57:55 pm
I'm sorry I meant the Mackie SA 1530z. I thought the dispersion would be suitable because of our low ceiling (14 ft).
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Tom Young on November 06, 2005, 05:06:50 pm
"I thought the dispersion would be suitable because of our low ceiling (14 ft)."

That's just a small part of the whole ball of wax. Assuming you mean to array these 2 loudspeakers side-by-side, this may be too much horizontal coverage and will result in splashing sound onto the walls or overlapping their coverage patterns too much. It also may be too little vertical coverage to cover from front to back rows. And it may end up being too loud in front so that it is loud enough in back. Etc, etc.

I think you need some professional help and have that person look at architectural drawings to determine the needed coverage. There are other factors to consider, as well.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Blanton Jones on November 06, 2005, 05:27:24 pm
I really value your advice, knowledge and expertise on the subject and agree that we need a professional, the problem at hand is; the board thinks it's ridiculous to hire someone to come in and plan they're system and after months of arguing the necessity of this crucial step in building a new sanctuary it was to no avail. So now I'm down to the wire and scurrying to find a suitable solution for our sound system.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Andy Peters on November 06, 2005, 05:37:07 pm
Blanton Jones wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 15:27

I really value your advice, knowledge and expertise on the subject and agree that we need a professional, the problem at hand is; the board thinks it's ridiculous to hire someone to come in and plan they're system and after months of arguing the necessity of this crucial step in building a new sanctuary it was to no avail. So now I'm down to the wire and scurrying to find a suitable solution for our sound system.


The best solution for YOU is to quit now, before you get blamed for the lousy results.

-a
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Blanton Jones on November 06, 2005, 05:47:24 pm
I was hoping I could find some helpful information to avoid lousy results and if I ended up with lousy results they would be convinced that we need a professional.  I've installed several systems in smaller churches (2-15's side by side monitors, wall plates etc.) but I've never done a job this big and I'm just hoping I could get some good opinions
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 06, 2005, 05:52:42 pm
[quote title=Andy Peters wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 17:37
The best solution for YOU is to quit now, before you get blamed for the lousy results.

-a
[/quote]
How true-Or he could actually post some plans or drawings or provide some other information about the room-other than the ceiling is 14' tall.  Width-depth-style of service etc. The measurements need to include such information as to far far the stage sticks out-if it does-how high the stage is-acoustical properties of the room and so much more.  Simply looking for a replacement for a flyable version of particular type of speaker is not going to get you very far-or very good performance.

I wonder why he thinks that the dispertion of the Mackie was "right" for a 14' ceiling?
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Blanton Jones on November 10, 2005, 02:18:40 pm
Guys I'm sorry for the lack of information but here are the  floor plans and I hope you can help.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Blanton Jones on November 10, 2005, 02:35:49 pm
I need to know the best place to hang the mains and possibly rear fills and also what type of speaker would be best suited for this application, A guy reccommended 2-Yorkville CU15's in a center cluster but I don't think that's gonna be enough to cover all of the seats.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Blanton Jones on November 11, 2005, 01:27:53 pm
guys I'm begging right now, I really need your help.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Andy Peters on November 11, 2005, 02:30:59 pm
Blanton Jones wrote on Fri, 11 November 2005 11:27

guys I'm begging right now, I really need your help.


I've already given my advice.   You are set up to fail.

-a
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 11, 2005, 02:43:18 pm
Blanton Jones wrote on Fri, 11 November 2005 12:27

guys I'm begging right now, I really need your help.


You have already received advice from very knowledgeable professionals. Begging for a different answer won't change the basic situation?

Saving a little money by not getting expert advice may not be that good of a deal. This may not be rocket science, but it's not landscaping either. Good luck, sounds like you may need it.

JR
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Blanton Jones on November 11, 2005, 03:29:56 pm
Guys I simply asked if a center cluster would be enough coverage. I've already told you the church has no budget for a professional to come in and don't see the need for it. I know this may be a slap in the face for you guys considering you all are professionals and I agree with you more than anyone that we need a pro installer but nevertheless the job still has to be done and now I am their only solution. I would normally tell the church that this job is too big but my father's tge pastor here and thinks I can do the job. All they won't is a couple of speakers hung but we all know that's not the smart thing to do. Can someone please look at the drawings and tell me which would be better?index.php/fa/3074/0/
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Clayton Luckie on November 11, 2005, 04:03:40 pm
I am not qualified to tell you which setup is better, but I do want to urge you to read this article:
www.audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf
Its called "Why Churches Buy Three Sound Systems, and How You Can Buy Only One".  As the tech director at a church relatively your size, I consider this of the utmost wisdom regarding this topic.  

I know its not what you want to hear, but this is the best professional advice you can get.  I realize that there is no money for a consultant, but this needs to be included in the budget for a new building.  Would you build a new church if you didnt have enough money to put a roof on it?  This should be considered just as important as a roof for a room your size.

I really hope I don't sound like I'm preaching to you about this.  I just want to join the others in encouraging your church to sincerely re-think hiring a consultant.  It will save you money, as outlined in the article linked above.  Please try to have your church think over this again.

cl

P.S. - Don't get frustrated with us.  We are trying to help in the best way we know how.  Any specific advice would be uneducated as to your specific situation.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Mark Smith on November 11, 2005, 05:10:43 pm
Blanton Jones wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 02:39

I've been placed in charge of installing the sound system in a new church we're building. I had my heart set on the Mackie SA1531's but I just found out that they're not flyable. I'm needing that same clarity and wattage in maybe a passive or anything flyable from a center cluster (pair). The new church will seat 500-750 people. I have to start purchasing next month and would greatly appreciate any usable info I can get.



I think most of the people in this forum feel for you.  It is never easy to be given a task at the last minute.  
The article referenced by CL is right on it..  I have seen many of those things too many times.
My heartfelt advice to you is to go to the church and explain that you want to make sure this is done right.  Explain what it will take to do it right.  Offer to oversee the process and tell them you will ensure it is done right.
But, if they refuse, explain to them that any work you do for God, you do as the best you can, and that this would not be the best you could do.  Give them the names of other installers in the area and explain that in 2 years when they can't stand it anymore, you would be happy to oversee the rework of their sound system.  This sounds mean, but it really isn't.  
You are trusted by this church. Don't take advantage of that trust by giving them something that you know is not the best for them (even if it is what they "want").

(EDIT) - I am not a professional in the business and it is no slap in the face to me.  But, I have been in your shoes before.  The church board really doesn't understand the need, and I guess that is fine.  The problem is that if you are part of the crutch, you will never be part of the solution.  Whether you want to admit it or not you are the "professional" on this job.  Take your responsibility seriously. If you were the "professional" designing a bridge, would you still design the bridge if your client wanted to use half the concrete that you said it needed?  You will make people mad if you refuse, and that is regrettable in a church environment.  But, in the long run, I truly believe it is the right thing (coming from someone who has done both).  
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it is what you need to hear.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Blanton Jones on November 12, 2005, 05:46:50 am
I really appreciate the advice guys. Thanks alot! and God Bless...(He always does)
Title: Re: Please Help Quick-responsibility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 12, 2005, 11:37:34 am
Blanton Jones wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 14:35

 A guy reccommended 2-Yorkville CU15's in a center cluster but I don't think that's gonna be enough to cover all of the seats.

I would this "guy" do the install and take the blame for it if it does not work.  That way you are out of the path.  You can tell the church that we should have brought in a professional, but they didn't want to be cause they can't afford to.  Now the question is, can they afford to NOT bring in someone who knows what they are doing and is willing to take responsibility for the outcome of the system.  A professional will do that.  From a non-professional/truck slammer etc all you will get is "but those are great speakers-maybe your problem is -------"  I have heard this many times, and even last week from a speaker system we replaced that was less than a year old and was installed by one of the bigger players (in regards to sales-catalog) in the church market.  They kept telling the church that they had great equipment and they kept passing the blame to other areas.  The equipment was fine-but it was the wrong speaker system for the room.  The only thing we replaced was the speaker system and realigned the new one and they are happy. Same mixer-DSP-amps etc.

It is not just the components used-it is HOW they are used that makes a world of difference.  It is also not just where they are placed (and aimed)- but how the alignment of the speakers are done-who is going to do that for you? And please don't say you will use the "auto" funciton on somebody's DSP. Mad
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Kevin Stow on November 12, 2005, 12:09:02 pm
Hello Mr. Jones,

I have read your request and the replies you have already
received and feel for you in this situation.

I have seen this happen many times.


Have you considered taking the plans you posted along with the
measurements of the inside of the building, type of materials
used for the floor,ceiling,walls and the type of seating padded
or not,that sort of thing to a local dealer or contractor?

With this basic info it would be possible to model the building
on E.A.S.E. and give you a clue on what you might need before you make a purchase.

I think a center cluster will probably work for you, but you need to do this first at a minimum.

There are many different speaker companies that provide the
dealer contractor with the tools they need to do this such as
JBL ,EAW,Renkus Heinz just to name a few.

I hope you have a relationship with a local dealer that you have purchased form in the past that will feel comfortable doing this for you.

Remember,you are asking for a solution that your board of directors was not willing to pay for previously.

With that in mind it would be in good faith that you offer to
purchase the equipment from the dealer that offered a solution
that you are in agreement on.

In the event you are not able to purchase the system recommended
you should offer to pay for the time spent to develop the solution.

Make sure you agree on this fee beforehand.

Sometimes you can get the board of directors to go this way
so they feel like the money was better spent with out hiring
a separate consultant.

The only way you lose is if you don't by the system.

You need a rig,and this might be a way to get the help you need
cost effectively.

The down side of not getting a simple model first is you will
probably fail.

By the way,you need amps and processing to make this thing
work.

The solution should include these suggestions too.

I hope this helps.

Good Luck and God Bless

Kevin
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Andy Peters on November 12, 2005, 01:29:03 pm
Kevin Stow wrote on Sat, 12 November 2005 10:09

With this basic info it would be possible to model the building
on E.A.S.E. and give you a clue on what you might need before you make a purchase.


EASE isn't cheap, and it's not all that useful in the hands of an untrained user.  The measurements and calculations are best left to a trained consultant, which is the step the Powers-That-Be in Blanton's church are unwilling to take.

Hence, my concern that he is being set up to fail.

-a
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 12, 2005, 04:27:01 pm
Andy Peters wrote on Sat, 12 November 2005 13:29

Kevin Stow wrote on Sat, 12 November 2005 10:09

With this basic info it would be possible to model the building
on E.A.S.E. and give you a clue on what you might need before you make a purchase.


EASE isn't cheap, and it's not all that useful in the hands of an untrained user.  The measurements and calculations are best left to a trained consultant, which is the step the Powers-That-Be in Blanton's church are unwilling to take.

Hence, my concern that he is being set up to fail.

-a

Agreed-we typicaly charge $150/hr for EASE modeling.  The final cost depends on how much information (therefore the detail fo the model) they want.  If all you are interested in is direct coverage of a space, that is fairly quick and easy.  But it doesn't give much information as to how well a particular speaker willbehave in a room, just the direct coverage.

And even when you have the EASE mounting/coverage information, there are other things that have to be done right to ensure success.  These include actually mounting the loudspeaker where the model shows and mounting with the angles specified.  Then the system alignment has to be done properly-espically when they are employing delay speakers.  Another area in which there can be easy failure.  

If cheap and guessing are what they are interested in-then they get what they deserve.  I wonder about the other parts of the building-did they just guess at the HVAC-electrical-foundation etc?  I bet not.  But yet they are not willing to spend money on the single biggest issue which will affect how the word of God is delivered.  Nobody is going to get saved by how well other parts of the building  are done, but they may be saved if they can hear properly, but not if they are in a bad coverage area.
Title: Re: Please Help Quick
Post by: JIMGUNDLACH on November 24, 2005, 08:59:15 pm
You realy need professional help.  If you insist on a best guess right now ---

I don't know the Yorkvilles.  You probably need 40V by 90H.  Your "B" drawing is probably best.  Get the speakers as high as you can.  You MUST delay the feed to the rear speakers.  Use 12AWG wire for the speakers, solid/stranded/twisted/THHN - doesn't matter. Home run EACH speaker to the amp rack.  Make SURE whoever rigs the loudspeakers is licensed and good.  Make SURE the loudspeaker is rated to be hung.  Make SURE an engineer stamps the rigging drawing.  Good sound is one thing, killing people is another.  Do NOT build custom rigging for a non-fly loudspeaker.

I like the cluster and delay loudspeakers concept.  Your ceiling is so low that a long throw horn from the cluster position is asking for nasty reflections off the rear wall.  You could use a high "Q" device in front but it would be very large and very costly.