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Title: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 25, 2016, 06:01:10 pm
A few years back, if you wanted a decent 2x18" passive subwoofer, "everybody" seemed to agree on the JBL SRX728 as a good choice.

AFAIK it's now discontinued.

Has a new favorite emerged on this forum?

Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Josh Rawls on May 25, 2016, 07:14:53 pm
I just got a JBL SRX828SP and I'm very happy with it. I bought a SRX818SP first and I sometimes couple them together.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on May 25, 2016, 07:38:10 pm
I just got a JBL SRX828SP and I'm very happy with it. I bought a SRX818SP first and I sometimes couple them together.

The SRX828 is tuned significantly higher, that probably doesn't matter to most people, but I don't think it stands up to the 728 based on that alone.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 26, 2016, 04:20:00 am
I just got a JBL SRX828SP and I'm very happy with it. I bought a SRX818SP first and I sometimes couple them together.

Thanks, but SRX828SP is only availale as a powered sub AFAIK.

 I'm looking for a passive one.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Duane Macsymach on May 26, 2016, 04:37:23 am
Thanks, but SRX828SP is only availale as a powered sub AFAIK.

 I'm looking for a passive one.
Passive in SRX is available now
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/srx800-passive-series/srx828s#.V0a1KukjMUU

Another good choice 
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/stx800-series/stx828s#.V0a2zOkjMUU
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Scott Carneval on May 26, 2016, 09:20:54 am
Thanks, but SRX828SP is only available as a powered sub AFAIK.

 I'm looking for a passive one.

The powered SRX is actually LESS than the 728 used to sell for. If I was in the market for a 2x18 it would be at the top of my list. Another sub that compares favorably is the QSC GP218.

If you were in the market for a PAIR of 2x18's, I would pony up the extra cash for a TH118. Costs a little less than a pair of 2x18, and performs about as well as two of them. Overall you would spend less money, have the same or possibly a little more output, and have less to pack and carry vs. a pair of 2x18's.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: John L Nobile on May 26, 2016, 10:40:23 am
Passive in SRX is available now
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/srx800-passive-series/srx828s#.V0a1KukjMUU

Another good choice 
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/stx800-series/stx828s#.V0a2zOkjMUU

Speaker specs give me headaches.

SRX 828S

System Type   Passive dual 18, subwoofer system
Maximum SPL Output   141dB
Frequency Range (-10dB)   30hz - 150hz
Frequency Response (- 3dB)   47hz - 150hz
Sensitivity (1W/1m)   96dB
System Power Rating   4800W Peak, 2400W Program, 1200W Continuous
Nominal Impedance   4 Ohm

Danley SBH 218

operating frequency range 34 Hz- 300 Hz -3dB
28 Hz - 400 Hz -10dB
continuous output 141 dB SPL peak output 147 dB
SPL sensitivity 117 dB SPL (2.83 Volts into rated Z, at 1 meter) measured in half space
Power Rating 3600 watts continuous
14,400 watt peak


How does a box that takes less power and a lot less sensitivity post the same output level? According to the specs, I should be able to get about the same level with a little less low end from the JBL.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Scott Carneval on May 26, 2016, 11:10:17 am
Speaker specs give me headaches.

SRX 828S

System Type   Passive dual 18, subwoofer system
Maximum SPL Output   141dB
Frequency Range (-10dB)   30hz - 150hz
Frequency Response (- 3dB)   47hz - 150hz
Sensitivity (1W/1m)   96dB
System Power Rating   4800W Peak, 2400W Program, 1200W Continuous
Nominal Impedance   4 Ohm

Danley SBH 218

operating frequency range 34 Hz- 300 Hz -3dB
28 Hz - 400 Hz -10dB
continuous output 141 dB SPL peak output 147 dB
SPL sensitivity 117 dB SPL (2.83 Volts into rated Z, at 1 meter) measured in half space
Power Rating 3600 watts continuous
14,400 watt peak


How does a box that takes less power and a lot less sensitivity post the same output level? According to the specs, I should be able to get about the same level with a little less low end from the JBL.

There's a couple of things about those specs that can be misleading.

1. JBL gives a maximum output of 141db, but that is no doubt their peak number. Continuous output would be 135db if you subtract 6db from the peak rating. But with a sensitivity of 96db, and a gain of 30.8 db based on 1200 watts continuous power rating, according to my abacus that is 126.8 db. You could give them the benefit of the doubt that the measurement was taken in whole-space, and add 3db for real-world usage, but you're still at 129.8db.

2. Danley rates their sensitivity at '2.83v @ 1 meter'. While this is a more ACCURATE way to measure (because impedance varies with frequency, 1w1m is never really 1 watt), it can also be misleading when compared to the more common '1 watt @ 1 meter' measurement. The DBH218 is a 2 ohm cabinet, and 2.83v at 2 ohms is more like 4 watts. So to reference this to 1 watt would be more like 111db sensitivity, BUT because impedance varies with frequency that isn't really an accurate way to measure.

Rest assured, the SRX828 is not in the same ballpark as the DBH218 when comparing output.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Robert Piascik on May 26, 2016, 11:20:49 am

I've changed my thinking in that I don't care anymore if a box is (what is now) standard sub configuration: 2x18.

My Danley TH118 subs blow away most 2x18 boxes at a fraction of the space and weight. For my Lounge Level requirements they satisfy the requirement exceedingly well.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: John L Nobile on May 26, 2016, 11:44:17 am
There's a couple of things about those specs that can be misleading.

1. JBL gives a maximum output of 141db, but that is no doubt their peak number. Continuous output would be 135db if you subtract 6db from the peak rating. But with a sensitivity of 96db, and a gain of 30.8 db based on 1200 watts continuous power rating, according to my abacus that is 126.8 db. You could give them the benefit of the doubt that the measurement was taken in whole-space, and add 3db for real-world usage, but you're still at 129.8db.

2. Danley rates their sensitivity at '2.83v @ 1 meter'. While this is a more ACCURATE way to measure (because impedance varies with frequency, 1w1m is never really 1 watt), it can also be misleading when compared to the more common '1 watt @ 1 meter' measurement. The DBH218 is a 2 ohm cabinet, and 2.83v at 2 ohms is more like 4 watts. So to reference this to 1 watt would be more like 111db sensitivity, BUT because impedance varies with frequency that isn't really an accurate way to measure.

Rest assured, the SRX828 is not in the same ballpark as the DBH218 when comparing output.

Scott, you're the aspirin for my headache :)

I know they're at different levels but they sure do look close on the spec sheets. I'm trying to figure out if I have enough sub for the gig. The room we're in has had a total of 6 dbl 18" subs for bands and I'm hoping to get the same level with 2 SBH218's. I can't A/B them as I'd have to rent them to do that so spec sheets is all I thought I had to go on. They seem useless so I guess I gotta rely on faith.

Seems like I need to do a little research on electrical formulas.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 26, 2016, 01:41:10 pm

If you were in the market for a PAIR of 2x18's, I would pony up the extra cash for a TH118.

I'm in the market for 8-16 units of decent conventional 2x18" subs.
Danley is a bit more than decent, I used to have SH50s, they we're really good :)

Btw: the subs don't have to be new, I can look for something used.

Edit:
I just took delivery of 8x KF750 for cheap and I'm looking at subs for them so I can have a decent trap rig.
Dual 18" stack better for this application.
 
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Scott Carneval on May 28, 2016, 09:30:52 am
Scott, you're the aspirin for my headache :)

I know they're at different levels but they sure do look close on the spec sheets. I'm trying to figure out if I have enough sub for the gig. The room we're in has had a total of 6 dbl 18" subs for bands and I'm hoping to get the same level with 2 SBH218's. I can't A/B them as I'd have to rent them to do that so spec sheets is all I thought I had to go on. They seem useless so I guess I gotta rely on faith.

Seems like I need to do a little research on electrical formulas.

I don't have hands-on time with the DBH, but I can tell you that the TH118 compares favorably to two double-18 cabinets. I would feel confident with 4x TH118 on that gig, and judging by the spec sheets you should be able to replace 4 TH118 with 2 DBH218. Ivan can probably give a more definitive answer.


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Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Scott Carneval on May 28, 2016, 09:35:37 am
I'm in the market for 8-16 units of decent conventional 2x18" subs.
Danley is a bit more than decent, I used to have SH50s, they we're really good :)

Btw: the subs don't have to be new, I can look for something used.

Edit:
I just took delivery of 8x KF750 for cheap and I'm looking at subs for them so I can have a decent trap rig.
Dual 18" stack better for this application.

If you already own amps and processing, I would look for used SRX728. There's not much on the market that can beat them 'dollar for db' in a front loaded 2x18 configuration. If you don't already own amps/processing I would look at the SRX828sp.




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Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: John L Nobile on May 28, 2016, 09:45:26 am
I don't have hands-on time with the DBH, but I can tell you that the TH118 compares favorably to two double-18 cabinets. I would feel confident with 4x TH118 on that gig, and judging by the spec sheets you should be able to replace 4 TH118 with 2 DBH218. Ivan can probably give a more definitive answer.


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So one TH118 compares favorably with 2 dbl 18 front loaded subs? This is math I can handle.
I'll see what happens tonight. We have the first band in our new venue. It's an Eagles tribute that does very well. They have their own BE so I'll see what he thinks.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Scott Carneval on May 28, 2016, 09:52:06 am
So one TH118 compares favorably with 2 dbl 18 front loaded subs? This is math I can handle.
I'll see what happens tonight. We have the first band in our new venue. It's an Eagles tribute that does very well. They have their own BE so I'll see what he thinks.

I replaced four SRX728 with two TH118 in an EDM venue. The owner liked them so much he bought two more TH118 (for a total of four) just cause he had the extra amp channels. I couldn't even talk him out of it. He got so many noise complaints that now he runs the amps at 12 o'clock even though the DSP is set to run them wide open.

For what it's worth, he had the four 2x18 for six years and I'm not aware of any noise complaints with that setup.


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Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Keith Broughton on May 28, 2016, 10:17:58 am
So one TH118 compares favorably with 2 dbl 18 front loaded subs? This is math I can handle.
I'll see what happens tonight. We have the first band in our new venue. It's an Eagles tribute that does very well. They have their own BE so I'll see what he thinks.
You have some TH118s up there John?
Title: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Helge A. Bentsen on May 28, 2016, 10:45:21 am
If you already own amps and processing, I would look for used SRX728. There's not much on the market that can beat them 'dollar for db' in a front loaded 2x18 configuration. If you don't already own amps/processing I would look at the SRX828sp.




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That's my thinking as well. Also keeping an eye out for any deals on used SB750/1000. SB1000 doesn't stack that well, but they are a known quantity for most people.

TH118 is not on the list.



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Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Keith Broughton on May 28, 2016, 11:37:19 am

TH118 is not on the list.



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Just out of idle curiosity, why no TH118? Cost perhaps?
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Helge A. Bentsen on May 28, 2016, 11:51:46 am
Just out of idle curiosity, why no TH118? Cost perhaps?

Rider issues. I had Danley in the past, it was a constant uphill struggle with BEs.


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Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Keith Broughton on May 28, 2016, 01:03:29 pm
Rider issues. I had Danley in the past, it was a constant uphill struggle with BEs.


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Interesting.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Helge A. Bentsen on May 28, 2016, 01:09:24 pm
Interesting.

Not really, just more work.
People tend to choose what they know instead of the unknown.
I think it's something like 4x TH118 in norway.


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Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Keith Broughton on May 28, 2016, 01:47:56 pm

People tend to choose what they know instead of the unknown.



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Fortunately, some people don't think that way or we would still be in the dark Ages  ;D
Title: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Helge A. Bentsen on May 28, 2016, 03:40:34 pm
Fortunately, some people don't think that way or we would still be in the dark Ages  ;D

:)

I try not to fight windmills, it's difficult enough to convince some people that the subs and mains doesn't have to be from the same maker as long as they're quality products.

To put it into perspective. If I said "I got Danley SH50 over Danley 2x12 horn subs" people would say "meh, maybe".
If I said "I got Danley SH50 over 2x12" labsubs" half of the BEs would say "meh, maybe", the other half "omg, you can't mix subs and tops from different manufacturers"....

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Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: John L Nobile on May 28, 2016, 05:58:55 pm
You have some TH118s up there John?

Nope. I got 2 SBH218's and I was hoping to hear them kick tonight. The BE doesn't seem to like low end so I'm going to have to wait. He had the sub amps at about quarter power for soundcheck.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: John L Nobile on May 28, 2016, 06:03:19 pm
Rider issues. I had Danley in the past, it was a constant uphill struggle with BEs.


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I can relate. I'm expecting some problems in the future.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Riley Casey on June 08, 2016, 01:56:31 pm
The band engineer is trimming the front panel levels on your amps?  Does this happen often with your system?  Thats a new one to me.

Nope. I got 2 SBH218's and I was hoping to hear them kick tonight. The BE doesn't seem to like low end so I'm going to have to wait. He had the sub amps at about quarter power for soundcheck.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: John L Nobile on June 08, 2016, 02:52:31 pm
The band engineer is trimming the front panel levels on your amps?  Does this happen often with your system?  Thats a new one to me.

No, he didn't touch the amps. The 1/4 power is an estimate from checking the amp meters during the show. Not exact science but there was a lot more power available. OTOH, you could hear all the intricate 4 part harmonies and the nice guitar work. It was a very good Eagles tribute band that I really enjoyed but low end is not really their thing.

The band coming this weekend is going to put them to the test however.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 22, 2016, 10:05:36 am
Fortunately, some people don't think that way or we would still be in the dark Ages  ;D

Like many things, unless you're a "designer" or other precious fucktwit the commercial aspect tends to make final decisions for you.  If Helge had problems "selling" Danley or any other brand to the BEs or PMs that make the decisions about which local/regional provider to use, the shop with the familiar products will win almost every time.

Don't get me wrong, Keith, I liked most of the Danley products I've heard and consider them to be superior in several ways... but those are MY impressions and after tilting at windmills with other products that were "better than many" we moved back to Things People Have Heard Of.

Touring theatre, even a "concert reproduction" like Rain, is significantly different than running a local or regional production shop.  If you rented cars and there was a demand for Ford Focus, you'd have a hard time pitching the Tesla fleet out back no matter how much "better" they might be.
Title: Re: Decent 2x18" subwoofer
Post by: Josh Millward on July 08, 2016, 10:23:42 am
If you rented cars and there was a demand for Ford Focus, you'd have a hard time pitching the Tesla fleet out back no matter how much "better" they might be.

This is very true and it makes it hard for a younger company to get accepted into this side of the business.

However, it seems that the tide is gradually turning according to at least one production manager at a venue with a complete Danley rig. When they originally installed the system a few years ago, he had to have a backup line array system on call to get the guys coming through his venue to just listen to the Danley rig. These days the guys coming in have at least heard of Danley and are interested in getting a chance to drive it.

Perhaps one day it will be some people's preferred choice.