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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: Mike Sokol on February 26, 2016, 03:13:37 pm

Title: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 26, 2016, 03:13:37 pm
Somebody say something before I go "Two-Phase" crazy again.... ;)
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on February 26, 2016, 04:15:34 pm
Somebody say something before I go "Two-Phase" crazy again.... ;)

When you scope across two "hot" legs of a three-phase wye service (with common neutral), you will see a single-phase signal on your scope screen.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Chris Jensen on February 26, 2016, 09:23:50 pm
Somebody say something before I go "Two-Phase" crazy again.... ;)

For someone with very little education on the topic two phase makes a ton of sense for casual understanding.  When you describe a single phase 250V system you pluralize the word phase.  Wouldn't you say it's two legs 180deg out of phase or the phases are 180deg of each other?  Based on a graph my brain says one trace one phase, two traces two phases and three traces three phases.

Title: Say Something
Post by: Cailen Waddell on February 26, 2016, 09:52:51 pm
For someone with very little education on the topic two phase makes a ton of sense for casual understanding.  When you describe a single phase 250V system you pluralize the word phase.  Wouldn't you say it's two legs 180deg out of phase or the phases are 180deg of each other?  Based on a graph my brain says one trace one phase, two traces two phases and three traces three phases.

Due respect this was recently explained quite adequately.  The legs are bout out of phase with eachother.  You are measuring it backwards with your meter.  The phases are in phase otherwise they would cancel out.


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Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jeff Bankston on February 27, 2016, 03:53:45 am
I'm out of phase right now. Women have 2 phases. Left leg and right leg.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 27, 2016, 06:50:02 am
OK, let's close this topic for now... ;)
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: David Buckley on February 27, 2016, 02:16:36 pm
You started it :)

We could, of course, extend this to audio and ask about that button  on the mixer with the Greek "Phi" on it, and ask is it a phase reverse button, or a polarity invert......
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 27, 2016, 03:33:32 pm
You started it :)

We could, of course, extend this to audio and ask about that button  on the mixer with the Greek "Phi" on it, and ask is it a phase reverse button, or a polarity invert......
He was trolling his own forum.  ;D

"Polarity" has too many letters to squeeze onto a tight console faceplate, "Phase" is just wrong, "Pol" is not likely to be understood, so Phi wins.

JR 
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 27, 2016, 04:04:53 pm
He was trolling his own forum.  ;D

Yup... That's what I do when I'm bored. An idle mind is the devil's playground.  ;)
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jay Barracato on February 27, 2016, 05:16:14 pm
So I just found out after 30 years that the "del" function ( as used in the Laplacian) is also called a " nabla".

There was also a chemist I know that was trying to get phi adapted as a symbol for moles. Kind of amazing in chemistry our most fundamental unit doesn't have a symbol.

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Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 27, 2016, 05:18:54 pm
Yup... That's what I do when I'm bored. An idle mind is the devil's playground.  ;)
I could give you circuit design to chew on... I've been trying to figure out how to do something for months and still can't. If I wasn't so humble I might suggest it can't be done.  8)

JR
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 27, 2016, 05:40:18 pm
There was also a chemist I know that was trying to get phi adapted as a symbol for moles. Kind of amazing in chemistry our most fundamental unit doesn't have a symbol.

Moles don't get no respect. From Superman and the Mole Men...
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on February 27, 2016, 07:23:58 pm
I could give you circuit design to chew on... I've been trying to figure out how to do something for months and still can't. If I wasn't so humble I might suggest it can't be done.  8)

JR

Send it to me and I'll munch on it a bit. You have my email...
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Joseph D. Macry on March 04, 2016, 03:50:16 pm

"Polarity" has too many letters to squeeze onto a tight console faceplate, "Phase" is just wrong, "Pol" is not likely to be understood, so Phi wins.

JR

I myself think "+/-" would be a good symbol to represent polarity switch.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 04, 2016, 05:18:37 pm
I myself think "+/-" would be a good symbol to represent polarity switch.

Not bad, but I haven't designed a console in this century, I haven't even touched one.

If I was still in the game, I'd test that...  I vaguely recall playing around with a symbol that was one cycle of a sine wave with a + inside the positive half, and a - inside the negative half. Or perhaps two sine wave cycles one starting with the up half, and the other starting with the down half.

The worst thing you can do is confuse the operators when they are looking for which switch to throw a mic out of phase with another..  ;D ;D ;D I would gladly use the word "phase" if it wasn't for pedantic whiners (like me) who know it should be polarity.  8) The customer is more right than the seller.

JR

PS: I got the design problem sorted.... when i tried to write an email to send mike, my subconscious was apparently embarrassed and gave me the solution it apparently was sitting on.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on March 04, 2016, 05:40:03 pm
PS: I got the design problem sorted.... when i tried to write an email to send mike, my subconscious was apparently embarrassed and gave me the solution it apparently was sitting on.

I have that effect on people.... ;)
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 04, 2016, 06:09:27 pm
Maybe two waveforms on top of each other going in opposite directions for positive and negative polarity.  Of course you'd still a single phase.  :D
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jay Barracato on March 04, 2016, 09:09:47 pm
Electrons going forward in time and backwards in time.

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Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 05, 2016, 09:44:20 am
I have that effect on people.... ;)
Not to get too serious for a moment, but I have a theory that the two halves of our brain communicate better with the outside world than each other. Verbalizing a problem (or perhaps writing about it) can involve the other half of your brain, the one with new, different ideas.

A brilliant design engineer I knew from decades ago, would make small talk with his wife every night about the design problem du jour... She of course had no idea what he was talking about, the process helped him find more solutions.

So talking about stuff really helps... Talk to you pet or plants if you need to.

JR

PS: I've been known to talk back to the TV set during political speeches. That never seems to help.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Frank Koenig on March 05, 2016, 12:21:23 pm
He was trolling his own forum.  ;D

"Polarity" has too many letters to squeeze onto a tight console faceplate, "Phase" is just wrong, "Pol" is not likely to be understood, so Phi wins.

JR

How about "-1"? It's short and it IS the transfer function. -F
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 05, 2016, 12:56:10 pm
How about "-1"? It's short and it IS the transfer function. -F
When designing console/mixer faceplates, you kind of want to cover the widest possible demographic, and a low common denominator. Many customers are not native english speakers, many don't grok transfer functions or even the subtlety of how a polarity switch works, only that they need to recognize it for what it is when it's there. 

JR

PS: wouldn't that be -1x, of course then they would need to know algebra too. -1 might describe a mute or a pad using simple addition and subtraction.  :o
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 05, 2016, 03:02:24 pm
PS: wouldn't that be -1x, of course then they would need to know algebra too. -1 might describe a mute or a pad using simple addition and subtraction.  :o

Nowadays, -1 represents a downvote. So I guess that would make it the "suck" button?
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on March 05, 2016, 03:09:12 pm
Nowadays, -1 represents a downvote. So I guess that would make it the "suck" button?

Need I say more?

Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 05, 2016, 05:19:17 pm
Need I say more?

I was waiting for that.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on March 05, 2016, 05:47:56 pm
I was waiting for that.

Too bad there's no "Talent" knob...
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Frank Koenig on March 05, 2016, 06:54:55 pm
When designing console/mixer faceplates, you kind of want to cover the widest possible demographic, and a low common denominator. Many customers are not native english speakers, many don't grok transfer functions or even the subtlety of how a polarity switch works, only that they need to recognize it for what it is when it's there.

Right on all counts, which is why I think this is as good a symbol as any. It's not used anywhere else, so  far as I know, and it has a logical backstory for the cognoscenti. It makes more sense than the Greek letter phi, which starts with a ph sound just like that word we're not supposed to use, although it is nostalgic for those of us who spent our youths reading motor name plates. -1 has a certain cool, like if you think you're  a "real engineer" you can explain to others why it's called that. Everyone got used to "1/0" for power switches, for what that's worth. (And, following the same ill conceived logic, a mute would be "0". I'm fine with a pad being "-20dB", for example, and phantom power being "48V".)

Personally, I like my controls labeled using, possibly abbreviated, words in my native language, but know that that is impractical in today's international markets. I once thought it would be a joke to have a complex interface like that of an airliner labeled with icons instead of English, and if you look at the latest generation of avionics it's becoming reality. Dear me, dunno what I'm gonna do. -F   
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jeff Carter on March 05, 2016, 10:35:47 pm
Not to get too serious for a moment, but I have a theory that the two halves of our brain communicate better with the outside world than each other. Verbalizing a problem (or perhaps writing about it) can involve the other half of your brain, the one with new, different ideas.

A brilliant design engineer I knew from decades ago, would make small talk with his wife every night about the design problem du jour... She of course had no idea what he was talking about, the process helped him find more solutions.

Sometimes, as in the case of the "rubber duck debugging" technique employed by some software developers, the other human can even be replaced by an inanimate object. (As the name suggests, the developer explains what the code does, line by line, to the duck).
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 06, 2016, 02:05:57 am
Maybe we call it "signal flip" or just "flip"?
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on March 06, 2016, 08:55:59 am
Maybe we call it "signal flip" or just "flip"?

So I can "Flip Off" the drummer?  ;D
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 06, 2016, 10:55:32 am
Too bad there's no "Talent" knob...

... does anyone know what model board that is anyways?!?

Ray
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 06, 2016, 11:17:32 am
Right on all counts, which is why I think this is as good a symbol as any. It's not used anywhere else, so  far as I know, and it has a logical backstory for the cognoscenti. It makes more sense than the Greek letter phi, which starts with a ph sound just like that word we're not supposed to use, although it is nostalgic for those of us who spent our youths reading motor name plates. -1 has a certain cool, like if you think you're  a "real engineer" you can explain to others why it's called that. Everyone got used to "1/0" for power switches, for what that's worth. (And, following the same ill conceived logic, a mute would be "0". I'm fine with a pad being "-20dB", for example, and phantom power being "48V".)

Personally, I like my controls labeled using, possibly abbreviated, words in my native language, but know that that is impractical in today's international markets. I once thought it would be a joke to have a complex interface like that of an airliner labeled with icons instead of English, and if you look at the latest generation of avionics it's becoming reality. Dear me, dunno what I'm gonna do. -F   
In a console you can just about leave it unlabeled, since experienced users will figure out what it is by process of elimination, and inexperienced users don't need to know it's there.

In my console crystal ball (dusty from lack of use) we will be working from a virtual control surface, using VR goggles. You can use any language controls legend you want, or even fully custom labels.

JR   
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 07, 2016, 05:19:33 pm
J.R.  I think you meant Augmented Reality.  Where the displayed info overlays the real world.  David Brin and other predicted this long ago and it's getting closer.

With VR, the band might actually sound good in spite of what they were doing.  They might even look good too, which might be a boon to us old farts.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 07, 2016, 05:56:45 pm
J.R.  I think you meant Augmented Reality.  Where the displayed info overlays the real world.  David Brin and other predicted this long ago and it's getting closer.

With VR, the band might actually sound good in spite of what they were doing.  They might even look good too, which might be a boon to us old farts.
Tag you're it... you know the new lingo you finish it for me....

Yes I was thinking like google glas that I think you can see through (?)... In my controller a camera can see your hands to interpret hand and finger gestures with context (like i'm squeezing his head... for compression).  ;D (only half joking).

Mr Softy has a new one but like $3K for the system.

JR
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on March 07, 2016, 09:54:51 pm
My son says his friend has a device that projects a laser keyboard on any surface that you can type on-should be too difficult to adapt that to a control surface.  Put a stage box at the stage, connect via CAT5e or CAT 6 and project your "console" on to any convenient flat surface.  A console in your pocket labeled in the language of your choice.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 07, 2016, 10:13:07 pm
My son says his friend has a device that projects a laser keyboard on any surface that you can type on-should be too difficult to adapt that to a control surface.  Put a stage box at the stage, connect via CAT5e or CAT 6 and project your "console" on to any convenient flat surface.  A console in your pocket labeled in the language of your choice.
Yup I wrote about that years ago... a linear extrapolation between a keyboard and a control surface, but the resolution required to parse out a pot twist is a lot harder than a key hit.

JR
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 08, 2016, 02:30:58 am
My son says his friend has a device that projects a laser keyboard on any surface that you can type on-should be too difficult to adapt that to a control surface.  Put a stage box at the stage, connect via CAT5e or CAT 6 and project your "console" on to any convenient flat surface.  A console in your pocket labeled in the language of your choice.

I predict the next virtualized input will consist of wristbands with accelerometers, one on each hand. No surface will be needed for data entry; the motion of your fingers will be translated to your wrists which can be interpreted as keystrokes or other input. Type away at the air! Sign language to text will also be a possibility.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: David Buckley on March 08, 2016, 05:30:00 am
I've been saying iot for some years: the Playstation generation haven't had their go at designing how mixing works - yet.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on March 08, 2016, 09:24:54 am
I've been saying iot for some years: the Playstation generation haven't had their go at designing how mixing works - yet.

What is old is new: The conductor of an orchestra gestures to make the mix sound good. Just like gesturing to the control surface to make adjustments. 
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Mike Sokol on March 08, 2016, 01:46:51 pm
What is old is new: The conductor of an orchestra gestures to make the mix sound good. Just like gesturing to the control surface to make adjustments.

I gesture to guitar players all the time, and it doesn't get them to turn down. Am I using the wrong gestures?  ;D
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 08, 2016, 04:47:28 pm
I gesture to guitar players all the time, and it doesn't get them to turn down. Am I using the wrong gestures?  ;D

Generally, "down" is not signified by pointing the middle finger upward. That might be a source of misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Ray Aberle on March 08, 2016, 04:59:59 pm
Generally, "down" is not signified by pointing the middle finger upward. That might be a source of misunderstanding.

and if you're just waiving "Hello," use all five fingers. At least that's what that cop the other day told me to do.

-Ray
Title: Re: Say Something
Post by: Jerome Malsack on March 08, 2016, 08:31:43 pm
So with Microsoft releasing the Halolens
https://www.microsoft.com/microsoft-hololens/en-us

We may see people walking around controlling the mix, Lights, and video projection ?