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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Jesse L Friesen on December 23, 2015, 10:50:31 pm

Title: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on December 23, 2015, 10:50:31 pm
Hello all! I'm working on configuring a new installed system for a local business that I help out from time to time. Their current system has so many dead zones in it, not to mention feedback issues. Basically they're using six EV SX-80pi fill speakers to cover a 60'x60' building that's used for live music. The owner bought a Electro-Voice X-Array system that had been used less than 10 times over three months at and auction a few years back, and its been sitting in storage since then, other than the SX-80s.  I have all of the amplifiers and crossovers needed for the Bi-Amped Xi speakers, and the cabling is already in place from the sound board to the amplifier/processing rack.

Here's a little info on the building, equipment, and general use:
> The building is 60'x60' with approx 15' ceilings. It's pole-barn-type construction, so there are no supports in the middle of the building, and there are joists every 8' in the ceiling. The weight handling has been tested, and can easily support a flying speaker system. there is a 20'x12' stage centered on the south wall, approx 2' high.
> For amplifiers, there are two EV CPS2.11 2-channel amps, one EV CPS2.8 2-channel amp, and on EV CPS2.4 2-channel amp.
> For speakers, they have two EV Xi-1152A/64F 15-inch two-way speakers, two EV Xi-1122A/85F 12-inch two-way speakers, one EV Xi-1192A 18-inch subwoofer, and six EV SX-80pi 8-inch two-way speakers. Obviously, that's way more than needed for the room, but that's what's available.
>The building is generally used for acoustic music shows. Mostly, the band uses a single Rode NT-2000 condenser, with a pair of Rode NT5 condensers for the instruments. They handle feedback control with a Sabine SM820-U, but they wind up pulling A LOT out in the EQ, both on the Carvin S/L 24 board and the 31-band two-channel rackmount EQ.

So now that the "backstory" is out of the way, here's what I need help with:
I've posted two configuration options (and the current setup), and would like to know which is the best option (if either), or what route I should go.  I've been doing live sound and studio engineering for years, but have never had to do a permanent installation. Hopefully someone here can tell me if I'm even on the right track!

Thanks in advance for the help!

JL Friesen
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 24, 2015, 12:07:32 am
Hello all! I'm working on configuring a new installed system

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Brian Bolly on December 26, 2015, 09:24:51 am
Hi Jesse,

A couple questions based on your drawings and descriptions:

- How is the seating (if any) configured?  Center aisle?  Varies per performance?
- Is anyone (management, bands, promoters, etc) going to complain about not having a 'stereo' PA?
- The drawing looks like you are intending to put the boxes on their sides.  Any particular reason?  Could they go vertically?
- Any reason for putting those side stage fills 4' onstage and 4' upstage?
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Keith Broughton on December 26, 2015, 01:58:10 pm
Option C...
Similar to option B but the main speakers farther apart and the side fills very close to the mains.
Think of a 2 speaker array left and right.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 27, 2015, 11:58:31 am
Jesse, is this for the Rose?
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 27, 2015, 01:25:18 pm
Here are a couple of things to keep in mind.

First off, the "rated" coverage patterns are NOT the pattern across the full range of the speaker.

In some cases, the pattern is only for the top 2 or 3 octaves.

It takes large horns to control down lower.

Next.  The actual coverage will be different in  the 3D (real) world than when drawn on a 2D map.  The coverage will be wider than what is drawn.

With any loudspeaker system, the "goal" is to emulate nature.  Think of dropping a pebble in a pond and the ripples coming off.

You DO NOT want pebbles in other places producing ripples that will interfere with other "pebbles"

ESPECIALLY you do not want "pebbles" that produce waves that go in different directions than the "main pebbles".

Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on December 27, 2015, 05:49:21 pm
A couple questions based on your drawings and descriptions:

- How is the seating (if any) configured?  Center aisle?  Varies per performance?
My bad, I forgot to mention the seating... There is a center isle about 5' wide from the stage to the back of the room. The seating is always the same: rows of tables and chairs angling slightly forward from the center isle.  As the venue is not always filled to capacity, we try to fill the front center and radiate out and back instead of filling the entire front row. This is mainly due to the outside end of the front row lining up with the front of the stage, as well as the band being clustered around a single mic at the center of the stage.

- Is anyone (management, bands, promoters, etc) going to complain about not having a 'stereo' PA?
The system is currently set up as 'stereo,' but the only time it's truly used as stereo is for background music while people are coming in.  In the last four or five years, there hasn't been a single time where we've needed or used the stereo capabilities.

- The drawing looks like you are intending to put the boxes on their sides.  Any particular reason?  Could they go vertically?
- Any reason for putting those side stage fills 4' onstage and 4' upstage?
The venue owners want to keep things the way they are, with the speakers pretty well hidden, but we've been able to convince them that the sound could be a lot better by reconfiguring the layout. In an attempt to keep them happy, I planned on hanging the speakers sideways, to keep them more "low profile." The 1152/64s have rotatable horns, so they would be better used in that type of configuration.
The location of the fills is due to the approx. joist placement, but we are able to add more supports.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on December 27, 2015, 05:57:39 pm
Jesse, is this for the Rose?
Yes it is. Orin and I have gotten so tired of repairing the current system... We replaced the "mains" with the SX80s two or three years ago when we discovered that the horns on the old peaveys blew. We are in the process of re-wiring and cleaning everything up, and want to go ahead and set the building up with the best speaker configuration that we can. The new owners aren't nearly as anal about "their way or the highway" as Thomas was, so they've given us a lot of freedom. There's another guy who's been hanging around lately that's been trying to talk them into buying his stuff and letting him install it, but Orin and I have discovered that he doesn't really know as much as he says (or thinks) he does, and has been blowing a lot of smoke. Not to mention that the stuff he has looks like it was pulled from a bombed-out building... I'm looking to get advice from people who know something about audio installation and the physics of sound.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on December 27, 2015, 06:11:50 pm
Option C...
Similar to option B but the main speakers farther apart and the side fills very close to the mains.
Think of a 2 speaker array left and right.

So maybe something along these lines?

EDIT:  Although, looking at this now, it would probably make more sense (and be easier) to put the mains vertically...
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on December 27, 2015, 06:24:52 pm
EDIT:  Although, looking at this now, it would probably make more sense (and be easier) to put the mains vertically...

Here is Option C with the speakers hanging vertically:
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 27, 2015, 06:51:16 pm
Jesse...

From your description of the "enhanced single mic" technique I'm assuming acoustic music, likely bluegrass or classic country/traditional music.  Speaker positioning aside, I would encourage you to delay the mains 5-8 milliseconds to help localize the sound to the performers rather than the loudspeakers. 
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 27, 2015, 07:11:44 pm
So maybe something along these lines?

EDIT:  Although, looking at this now, it would probably make more sense (and be easier) to put the mains vertically...
Earlier you mentioned "stereo".

In a "proper stereo" system, each of the stereo speakers needs to cover the room fully-or else everybody is not getting the same sound.

In the current diagram-if you pan something to the left-the people on the right are out of the pattern.

You need (should?) look for what is best for the majority of the people-not just a few in the middle.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on December 27, 2015, 07:15:19 pm
Jesse...

From your description of the "enhanced single mic" technique I'm assuming acoustic music, likely bluegrass or classic country/traditional music.  Speaker positioning aside, I would encourage you to delay the mains 5-8 milliseconds to help localize the sound to the performers rather than the loudspeakers.

Thanks for the tip! I hadn't really thought about that before, but it definitely makes sense. The band/stage is set up very similar to bluegrass, but the style is pretty far from it (although they have played Winfield) - I'm not really sure how to describe it, but your acoustic music description works.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on December 27, 2015, 07:18:12 pm
Earlier you mentioned "stereo".

In a "proper stereo" system, each of the stereo speakers needs to cover the room fully-or else everybody is not getting the same sound.

In the current diagram-if you pan something to the left-the people on the right are out of the pattern.

You need (should?) look for what is best for the majority of the people-not just a few in the middle.

We would be running the system in mono. There really isn't a need for stereo capability.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 27, 2015, 07:59:24 pm
We would be running the system in mono. There really isn't a need for stereo capability.
Then I would start with a single speaker in the CENTER and fills for the sides.

This will accomplish several things.

Since you are talking about 1 mic-I assume it would be towards the middle of the stage.

The center speaker (with the others properly delayed and eqed) will provide localization to that position.

With speakers on the side-the "sonic location" will be towards the sides.

You would also have less interference with a single center + fills setup.

Unless there is some physical reason-I would NEVER start with a mono system with speakers on the sides.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 27, 2015, 08:02:17 pm
Then I would start with a single speaker in the CENTER and fills for the sides.

This will accomplish several things.

Since you are talking about 1 mic-I assume it would be towards the middle of the stage.

The center speaker (with the others properly delayed and eqed) will provide localization to that position.

With speakers on the side-the "sonic location" will be towards the sides.

You would also have less interference with a single center + fills setup.

Unless there is some physical reason-I would NEVER start with a mono system with speakers on the sides.
And before you start to "think" that 2 speakers is better than 1 because you have 2 ears, consider that the SPEAKER part is your MOUTH-and most people only have 1 mouth.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on December 27, 2015, 08:28:39 pm
And before you start to "think" that 2 speakers is better than 1 because you have 2 ears, consider that the SPEAKER part is your MOUTH-and most people only have 1 mouth.

That's a really good point - I hadn't thought of it that way.  So what about something similar to "Option A" but with the center speaker moved forward and the smaller side fills brought further out? The larger 12" side "fills" would be able to handle the low freq better than the 10" center. On another note, the lowest freq instrument is an upright bass, which is ran through an amp, and not normally in the mix (but that could always change). Generally there is just rhythm guitar an vocals through the main mic in the center of the stage, except when the fiddle or mandolin takes a lead break. Otherwise the fiddle and mando are 3-4 feet to the right and left of the main mic on directional condensers.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 28, 2015, 11:52:21 am
That's a really good point - I hadn't thought of it that way.  So what about something similar to "Option A" but with the center speaker moved forward and the smaller side fills brought further out? The larger 12" side "fills" would be able to handle the low freq better than the 10" center. On another note, the lowest freq instrument is an upright bass, which is ran through an amp, and not normally in the mix (but that could always change). Generally there is just rhythm guitar an vocals through the main mic in the center of the stage, except when the fiddle or mandolin takes a lead break. Otherwise the fiddle and mando are 3-4 feet to the right and left of the main mic on directional condensers.
As long as the L/R speakers were NOT used, and things moved around a little, that could work.

When you add the L/R speakers, you introduce all sorts of combfiltering (notches in the response) due to the different signal arrival times at different seats.
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on January 06, 2016, 08:49:47 pm
Well, it turns out the center speaker over the stage isn't an option... The ceiling in the building is only 12' not 15' like I had originally thought. Due to that, the speaker would hang too low to be "visually appealing" (words of the operations mgr at the venue). Also, there is a big painted mural on the entire wall behind the stage, and they don't want the center of that to be covered up. I'm back to thinking about the two clustered pairs on either side of the stage, angled slightly down, but want to make sure there isn't a better option that doesn't require a large speaker or cluster in the center. Any ideas, or is the modified option c my best bet? Thanks to everyone for the help so far!!
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: lindsay Dean on January 07, 2016, 02:11:02 pm

'two clustered pairs on either side of the stage, angled slightly down,  that doesn't require a large speaker or cluster in the center."
                                       will not work well........at all
                     Ivan has preached the acoustic gospel, but you can
                 to quote mythbusters " reject reality and insert your own"
.         They will have to decide if they want it to look good or sound good.
     just trying to save you embarressment when it sounds different but still bad.
 
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on January 08, 2016, 03:02:04 pm
Ivan has preached the acoustic gospel, but you can to quote mythbusters " reject reality and insert your own".

I don't want to brush off any advice, especially after y'all have spent time to help me.

I'm concerned about placing a speaker in the center that can't handle the low end.. What about a single EV 1152 placed horizontally (the horn can be rotated) and placing the vertical 1122s on the sides as the fills?
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: lindsay Dean on January 08, 2016, 07:50:31 pm
You should look for some software that helps predict how your cabinets might act in a certain space.
  There are some decent free programs out there,some are proprietary to the speaker manufacturer.
 you can try to get a better idea of what You are trying to accomplish.👍
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2016, 12:25:12 pm
I don't want to brush off any advice, especially after y'all have spent time to help me.

I'm concerned about placing a speaker in the center that can't handle the low end.. What about a single EV 1152 placed horizontally (the horn can be rotated) and placing the vertical 1122s on the sides as the fills?
With a small rotatable horn, only the top couple of octaves will be affected by the pattern.

So the mid and lower freq will "do as they please".

So the design needs to try to account for this.

It take PHYSICAL SIZE to control the lower freq (DESPITE what some manufacturers might "imply")
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Jesse L Friesen on January 09, 2016, 12:37:46 pm
With a small rotatable horn, only the top couple of octaves will be affected by the pattern.

So the mid and lower freq will "do as they please".

So the design needs to try to account for this.

It take PHYSICAL SIZE to control the lower freq (DESPITE what some manufacturers might "imply")

The 1152 is larger than the 1122s, with a 15" woofer and a larger horn. From what I understand, it's designed to be installed either way.
As far as the mids and lows, that's why I was thinking about using the 1122s as fills vs the much smaller sx80s. While we are talking about low end, we also have an xi-1191 18" subwoofer we could install, along with the equipment for the hi-pass...
Title: Re: Installed Sound System Configurations - Which of these is the best option?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2016, 01:16:10 pm
The 1152 is larger than the 1122s, with a 15" woofer and a larger horn. From what I understand, it's designed to be installed either way.
As far as the mids and lows, that's why I was thinking about using the 1122s as fills vs the much smaller sx80s. While we are talking about low end, we also have an xi-1191 18" subwoofer we could install, along with the equipment for the hi-pass...
Just for argument sake

The horn in the 1152 is rated for 60x40.

It looks to have a flare width of about 12".

So using the "basic Keele math" the 40* pattern would be good down to about 2Khz and the 60* pattern good to about 1400Hz.

So below that-the pattern will start to become wider and wider.

So consider that "flipping the horn" will only affect the freq above 2Khz