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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 24, 2015, 10:22:51 am

Title: baseboard electric heat
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 24, 2015, 10:22:51 am
Quick home-owner question:

We've just moved into a house which has an electric baseboard heater in the kitchen area.  It's a Cadet model 8F2000 which specs 240/208, 8.3/7.1 amps and 2000/1500 watts with a length of 96".

There has been very little heat available from it, so I shut the breakers off (a pair of 20's) to examine the wiring.  Seems like it's only getting 120.  I can fix everything OK, but my question is how much more output should I expect?  Is it linear: 2x the Btu's or will it be more going to 220 full power?

TIA
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 24, 2015, 10:39:16 am
E^2/R so 2x voltage = 4x power.

Cadet also sells 120V units (I put one in my bedroom).

JR
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on November 24, 2015, 01:01:10 pm
We've just moved into a house which has an electric baseboard heater in the kitchen area.  It's a Cadet model 8F2000 which specs 240/208, 8.3/7.1 amps and 2000/1500 watts with a length of 96".

There has been very little heat available from it, so I shut the breakers off (a pair of 20's) to examine the wiring.  Seems like it's only getting 120.  I can fix everything OK, but my question is how much more output should I expect?  Is it linear: 2x the Btu's or will it be more going to 220 full power?

Hmm. JR answered your question, but I'm wondering why, if you have a double-pole breaker, it's only getting 120V. Is it only using one pole of the double-pole, and the other pole of the circuit is hooked to neutral? Or was this baseboard wired in series with another?

Maybe you've got that figured out, after all, you said you "can fix everything OK", but inquiring minds nosy people want to know what's up!
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Mike Sokol on November 24, 2015, 07:13:27 pm
Quick home-owner question:

We've just moved into a house which has an electric baseboard heater in the kitchen area.  It's a Cadet model 8F2000 which specs 240/208, 8.3/7.1 amps and 2000/1500 watts with a length of 96".

There has been very little heat available from it, so I shut the breakers off (a pair of 20's) to examine the wiring.  Seems like it's only getting 120.  I can fix everything OK, but my question is how much more output should I expect?  Is it linear: 2x the Btu's or will it be more going to 220 full power?

TIA

Since it's a 240-volt element producing 2,000 watts of heat, at 120 volts it will only produce 1/4 of that, or 500 watts. That ain't much, so you'll need to see why there's a double-pole breaker. Bust out the meter and check the color of the wires and the voltage feeding it. Sounds like someone tied one of the legs to neutral to reduce the wattage, or maybe someone did something really stupid like tie one side to the ground wire. Also, if it has a wall mounted thermostat you'll want to poke around in there and see that it's really getting for voltage.

And yes.... for any of you newbies or lurkers who don't know safety precautions, opening up live panels is dangerous and can get you killed. So find someone who knows how to do it if you're not 100% comfortable around live circuits and licensed to do so. Just remember that 120 volts can kill you just as dead as higher voltages. But you do look better in your coffin.  :-\
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 24, 2015, 07:39:14 pm
Thanks to all.  Simple answer is that while the breaker panel indicated that the double-20 breaker was for the kitchen heater, the unit was actually being fed 120 from a patch into one of the wall outlet circuits...which I had also turned off "just in case" before opening things up.

I've figured out the wiring now and am having a real electrician come in to re-wire things.  I was somewhat hampered by having my Fluke meter 150 miles away at the old house.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Scott Helmke on December 03, 2015, 10:00:08 am
...which I had also turned off "just in case" before opening things up.

I bought a 1950's house just a few months ago, and my new favorite tool is a non-contact voltage tester. Some interesting surprises didn't end up being dangerous surprises thanks to the NCVT.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Daniel Levi on December 03, 2015, 12:37:08 pm
A NCVT would have been very useful when I replaced a socket in my grans dining room. Turns out the socket was a more recent addition and was wired to the separate fuse box for the kitchen. Therefore turning off the breaker on the main fuse box doesn't kill the power to that socket. Got a slight tingle when I touched one of the terminals on the socket and was lucky I wasn't touching anything else as 240v on a 30a circuit can be nasty.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Mike Sokol on December 03, 2015, 08:14:34 pm
I bought a 1950's house just a few months ago, and my new favorite tool is a non-contact voltage tester. Some interesting surprises didn't end up being dangerous surprises thanks to the NCVT.

Same here. My 1923 house had K&T wiring in a lot of the rooms, with the light switches on the neutral side. So turning the switch "off" would cause the the fixture to go "hot". I found that out by accident some 20 years ago when I thought the circuit was unenergized Since then I've upgraded most of the wiring to modern code, and corrected all the silly stuff. Getting ready to put in a new panel with separate ground and neutral bus bars this spring. Right now the 60's panel has all the ground and neutral jammed into the same bus-bar with no room to correct it. I'll add a generator transfer switch at the same time that I change out the panel. 
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on December 03, 2015, 11:57:27 pm
Same here. My 1923 house had K&T wiring in a lot of the rooms, with the light switches on the neutral side. So turning the switch "off" would cause the the fixture to go "hot". I found that out by accident some 20 years ago when I thought the circuit was unenergized Since then I've upgraded most of the wiring to modern code, and corrected all the silly stuff. Getting ready to put in a new panel with separate ground and neutral bus bars this spring. Right now the 60's panel has all the ground and neutral jammed into the same bus-bar with no room to correct it. I'll add a generator transfer switch at the same time that I change out the panel.

Automatic or manual?  If you are doing manual, I really like the interlock switches that Square D makes.  Easy to install, about $50 and done.

Also, if your local ahj requires upgrading to AFCI breakers, the new "plug on neutral" s are really nice-helps keep the panel a lot cleaner and less congested.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Mike Sokol on December 04, 2015, 08:27:20 pm
Automatic or manual?  If you are doing manual, I really like the interlock switches that Square D makes.  Easy to install, about $50 and done.

Yeah, planning on the manual interlock for the genny. It will be good to get all those stacked breakers out of the old box. I can also drop in a feed to a new sub-panel in the garage at the same time.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 05, 2015, 08:30:45 am
Same here. My 1923 house had K&T wiring in a lot of the rooms, with the light switches on the neutral side. So turning the switch "off" would cause the the fixture to go "hot". I found that out by accident some 20 years ago when I thought the circuit was unenergized Since then I've upgraded most of the wiring to modern code, and corrected all the silly stuff. Getting ready to put in a new panel with separate ground and neutral bus bars this spring. Right now the 60's panel has all the ground and neutral jammed into the same bus-bar with no room to correct it. I'll add a generator transfer switch at the same time that I change out the panel. 

I went through the exact same thing in my old house built in 1890. Everything had potential, and even the plumbing (galvanized) was hot depending on what switch was on of off. The panel was 30A and half the house was K&T, the other half armored cable. I worked with a friend who is a licensed master in three states, and when we were done every inch of wiring had been removed and replaced.

The initial run was from the panel the full length of the house using 1.5" EMT and #12 THNN with junction boxes every 6 feet. The run ended at the soon to be demolished section of the house with an additional 10 circuits available (which have since been used). Separate circuit for everything and most rooms have there two 20A circuits running to them. Since then I've added an expansion panel and manual switch for the generator. We planned for 20 years, it's been over 30 years with no issues, except one, which is flickering hall lights that I've just noticed. Very subtle flicker and very hard to notice, but it's there, and I'll have to find out why.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 05, 2015, 08:39:24 am
Yeah, planning on the manual interlock for the genny. It will be good to get all those stacked breakers out of the old box. I can also drop in a feed to a new sub-panel in the garage at the same time.

I bought and installed a Reliance kit. everything you need in one box. Very good quality and from box to back of house took about two (2) hours to install. All I've had to do is buy an extension for the included 20 house to generator cable. It's been put to use more than once and everything works just fine.


http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?31406CDK

Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Frank DeWitt on December 05, 2015, 09:56:16 am
My first house came with a two circuit fuse box. One for a single outlet in each room downstairs  and one for a single wall sconce upstairs.

I put in a 150 amp service and a new panel and installed about 5 duplex outlets next to the panel. I ran extension cords to places that needed more power like the kitchen and anywhere I was using power tools.  As each room was remodeled the plaster was torn out, insulation and new wiring back to the panel put in and then drywall. It took a couple of years to rewire the whole house. 

I learned my lesson. remodeling is HARD  when we moved I built new. Much quicker and easier.  6 months from brake ground to move in. 
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Tom Bourke on December 05, 2015, 11:46:45 am
My first house came with a two circuit fuse box. One for a single outlet in each room downstairs  and one for a single wall sconce upstairs.

I put in a 150 amp service and a new panel and installed about 5 duplex outlets next to the panel. I ran extension cords to places that needed more power like the kitchen and anywhere I was using power tools.  As each room was remodeled the plaster was torn out, insulation and new wiring back to the panel put in and then drywall. It took a couple of years to rewire the whole house. 

I learned my lesson. remodeling is HARD  when we moved I built new. Much quicker and easier.  6 months from brake ground to move in.
We had a similar situation in the house we bought.  Existing wiring was impossible to make safe.  I pulled all the fuses and wired in a small stage distro.  Band stringers for the down stairs and the FOH run went up stairs.  That held us for a few months as we waited for the 80+ year old building inspector to remember to come over and approve the new 200A service.  I would call once a week and have to explain who I was and what I needed.

It still took years of remodelling hell to finish that house.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 05, 2015, 12:11:40 pm
I wish I could have remodeled. We didn't paint walls, we tore them down. Nothing was square, nothing done right, and the newspaper insulation told it's own story. Papers went from late 1800's to about 1923, and pulling them out was just like pulling horse hair lath. Just finished rebuilding the front porch, which I started before my heart attack in August. The tools, saws, ladders, etc. are still on the porch and I don't have the energy or time to put them away. Sad.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Chris Hindle on December 06, 2015, 02:25:47 pm
Just finished rebuilding the front porch, which I started before my heart attack in August. The tools, saws, ladders, etc. are still on the porch and I don't have the energy or time to put them away. Sad.
Bob, look at it this way. A lot of folks here are quite happy you didn't join the Great Gig in the Sky.
In late June, i had a kidney transplant. Shit takes a lot longer to get done than it used to. It's getting better, back full time at work, but still, a lot of recovery to go.
Don't be hard on yourself. Recover and grow.
Chris.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 08, 2015, 10:25:53 pm
Thanks Chris.
Title: Re: baseboard electric heat
Post by: Chris Hindle on December 09, 2015, 08:43:39 am
Thanks Chris.
Your welcome Bob.
I've had to learn new ways of doing old things. Also, my "fuse" is a LOT longer these days  ;D

Just continue getting better.
Chris.