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Title: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 13, 2015, 08:34:52 pm
I'm new, I've searched, and searched, and changed my username to my real name but the more I read, the more I know I don't know what I'm doing :P

I'm a DJ, the most complicated system I've ever done aside from my mains is having 2 speakers set up as stage monitors connected directly to AUX 1 and 2 of my mixer without an eq.

I have a big gig to me coming up, and while I got away with feedback challenges with just my mixer eq, It'll probably be harder in my upcoming gig.

4 vocals who have 3 instruments, and a keyboard as well as bass. I will only provide 4 monitors for the 4 vocals. No monitor for keyboard or bass, they will be behind vocals

So what I did was I purchased 2 dual channel 31 band eq's to help combat feedback (behringer fbq 3102).

I was thinking, I should insert each channel of each eq into each of the 4 vocals "insert" port directly on my mixer. This way I can cut out any feedback frequency coming out of my monitors as well as mains.

A Friend of mine says nobody does that, I should instead have each channel of the eq right before the monitors so that I can eq everything that comes out of the monitors. It makes sense to me but do I really need to eq instruments coming out of monitors?

Any help would be greatly appreciated
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 13, 2015, 09:09:00 pm
Hello Joseph and welcome to the forums.

The most common signal path is Aux output to EQ input, then EQ output to the input of the monitor power amp.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Irvin Pribadi on June 13, 2015, 10:09:44 pm
It depends on a few things.

If your main speakers are not positioned optimally and contribute to stage mic feedback, then adding the EQ as inserts does help.
Does the mains have a separate EQ as well?
OTOH if adding EQ as inserts and no other EQ in the chain for the mains, the tonal shaping of your main speakers may differ significantly than your wedges.

Btw, a few years back what I found as a great EQ was Behringer's FBQ2496. It's a feedback destroyer, but I simply used it as a 20-band dual ch parametric EQ (with super narrow Q down to 1/60 octave) which IMO way trumps a 31 fixed band EQ.
It's flexible enough that I can use say 12 PEQ bands to get the right sound and kill most known rings and leave the other 8 bands on auto feedback suppression; and that's per ch ... it's really pretty cool.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 14, 2015, 07:38:47 am
An eq alone will not "fix" issue.  In fact in many cases it can make them WORSE

It all depends on if it is used properly.

When not used correctly you can totally destroy the sound.

It often takes years of experience in all kinds of different situations to get a decent "handle" on how to use it.

There is no "simple" answer-but a lot of depends.

And eq can be used for many things, feedback control, loudspeaker adjustment/flattening, tonal shaping etc.

It is NOT a simple thing to jump into.

Yes you can do "something", but is it right?

The best thing is to just start playing with the eqs-NOT in a gig situation and start training your ear as to how the different react, and learn how to hear the differences.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: John Rutirasiri on June 14, 2015, 12:39:30 pm
4 vocals who have 3 instruments, and a keyboard as well as bass. I will only provide 4 monitors for the 4 vocals. No monitor for keyboard or bass, they will be behind vocals

Did the contract/rider/band ask for separate monitor mix for each singer (that is, 4 different monitor mixes)?  If not, don't over-complicate things -- just provide them a single vocal monitor mix out of one of the aux sends and use one channel of your EQ as Tim said.  (Rarely do I need more than 3 separate vocal monitor mixes.)

IMO if you only have 4 monitors, I would have a monitor for the keyboard player and one for the bassist.  Then use two vocal monitors up front.  Being behind the vocalists (and their monitors) does not mean they're not going to hear them.

John R.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on June 14, 2015, 12:48:00 pm
Yeah, the most common setup is Aux>EQ>Monitor Amp. Like Ivan said. Set up your rig at home with mics and monitors in approximate positions they will be in in the show. Then play with the EQ and see where your mic/monitor combo is most susceptible to feed back. Of course this will change a bit once at the venue, but the combo will have certain frequencies that will feedback first. Look up Ringing out monitors.   
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Scott Wagner on June 14, 2015, 01:04:21 pm
... but the combo will have certain frequencies that will feedback first.   
Ummm, no. Feedback frequencies are path dependent and will change with positioning changes of speakers, mics, and reflection path (is the singer wearing a hat?), etc.

To the OP: Setting up the rig at home is great advice. What you'll be learning, however, is the process. The actual frequencies will change (sometimes over the course of the performance).
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Mac Kerr on June 14, 2015, 02:40:49 pm
Yeah, the most common setup is Aux>EQ>Monitor Amp. Like Ivan said. Set up your rig at home with mics and monitors in approximate positions they will be in in the show. Then play with the EQ and see where your mic/monitor combo is most susceptible to feed back. Of course this will change a bit once at the venue, but the combo will have certain frequencies that will feedback first. Look up Ringing out monitors.   

Yes, that is the most common way to set up, it is not however optimal. Assuming you have the facilities, and a way to cue up the monitor mix while you make adjustments, it is better to insert the eq on the aux bus. That way you will actually hear the changes in the mix as you use the eq to both eliminate feedback, and make the mix sound good. Cueing up the mix with the eq in line with the output only lets you hear the mix without eq. You might be able to tell when you've eliminated the feedback, but you have no idea whether or not you have also made the mix sound crappy.

Mac
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Rob Spence on June 14, 2015, 03:00:45 pm
If you could tell us more detail on your gear it can help us offer advice specific to your setup. Right now we are guessing.

Are your amplifiers right near your mix position (or perhaps you use powered speakers)?

Make & model of gear will help.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 14, 2015, 04:08:27 pm
Thanks for the welcome Tim, and thanks for all the posts everyone!

Irvin: Donít know that there is an optimal position for the mains, http://www.yelp.com/biz/sunset-lanai-camp-h-m-smith there is glass  :(

In the DJ business for over 20 years, havenít used an EQ in the last 10, so no my mains donít have an eq. I suppose I could get another fbq3102 or the destroyer you mentioned and sell it after the gig.

Ivan: Will definitely continue to experiment with my new toys at home, will even bring the monitors/eq to gigs where itís not required.

John: Rider does ask for 4 separate monitor mixes specifically for the 4 singers

Kevin: I purchased the fbq3102ís because of all of the reading on ringing out monitors, will continue to read and practice

Scott: Yeah I know enough that the sound is different as bodies fill the room. Which makes me want to buy a destroyer instead of an eq for my mains. Because if i ring out a room when its empty, will those same frequencies I cut out all of a sudden become ok frequencies when the room is full???

Mac: Optimal, thatís what Iím looking for. In the past, I used to run my amps wide open because it was common, then I learned a little about gain setup.

Rob: Hereís the embarrassing part, itís not all matching. Itís what I have, I take whatever gear I need for a particular gig. Itís more than likely Iíll be setup on stage with the band as weíre providing DJ service

For this gig:

Monitors will be a pair of EV SX300ís powered by a QSC PLX1804, and a pair of EV ELX115 powered by a CROWN XLS1500.

My mains I have a pair of EV ETX 15P and a EV QRX 218S powered by a CROWN XLS1000.

Mics are SHURE SM58. What Iíve recently purchased for the gig is a behringer xenyx2442 and of course the pair of fbq3102 and a 12 channel snake
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Rob Spence on June 14, 2015, 04:40:23 pm
Thanks for the welcome Tim, and thanks for all the posts everyone!

Irvin: Donít know that there is an optimal position for the mains, http://www.yelp.com/biz/sunset-lanai-camp-h-m-smith there is glass  :(

In the DJ business for over 20 years, havenít used an EQ in the last 10, so no my mains donít have an eq. I suppose I could get another fbq3102 or the destroyer you mentioned and sell it after the gig.

Ivan: Will definitely continue to experiment with my new toys at home, will even bring the monitors/eq to gigs where itís not required.

John: Rider does ask for 4 separate monitor mixes specifically for the 4 singers

Kevin: I purchased the fbq3102ís because of all of the reading on ringing out monitors, will continue to read and practice

Scott: Yeah I know enough that the sound is different as bodies fill the room. Which makes me want to buy a destroyer instead of an eq for my mains. Because if i ring out a room when its empty, will those same frequencies I cut out all of a sudden become ok frequencies when the room is full???

Mac: Optimal, thatís what Iím looking for. In the past, I used to run my amps wide open because it was common, then I learned a little about gain setup.

Rob: Hereís the embarrassing part, itís not all matching. Itís what I have, I take whatever gear I need for a particular gig. Itís more than likely Iíll be setup on stage with the band as weíre providing DJ service

For this gig:

Monitors will be a pair of EV SX300ís powered by a QSC PLX1804, and a pair of EV ELX115 powered by a CROWN XLS1500.

My mains I have a pair of EV ETX 15P and a EV QRX 218S powered by a CROWN XLS1000.

Mics are SHURE SM58. What Iíve recently purchased for the gig is a behringer xenyx2442 and of course the pair of fbq3102 and a 12 channel snake

My experience with feedback destroyers is that except for some high end ones aimed at installs, do not compensate correctly as the room changes. Most simply keep pulling out frequencies till they use up their abilities and don't release unneeded ones later.

I find that if I think about where sound will go and what it will bounce off of, I can place speakers and mics to their best advantage and make minimal EQ cuts.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Scott Wagner on June 14, 2015, 05:05:37 pm
Scott: Yeah I know enough that the sound is different as bodies fill the room. Which makes me want to buy a destroyer instead of an eq for my mains. Because if i ring out a room when its empty, will those same frequencies I cut out all of a sudden become ok frequencies when the room is full???
First, "feedback destroyers" tend to do more harm than good. I would stick with the EQ that you can control yourself.

Second, there's a LOT more to it than bodies in the room. Every little change on stage will affect which frequencies are the problem (think "reflection path" from the monitor to the mic). The trick is to find the worst two or three frequencies before you start (bring up the gain until it starts to ring - cut that frequency), and then pay attention as the performance is happening in case you need to adjust things. Learn what the different frequencies actually SOUND like (this is one place where an RTA is actually useful). That way you have some idea of which slider to grab on the EQ in the heat of battle.

Third, use the pattern of the mic to make your life easier. With a SM58 (or any cardioid mic), the null (area of least sensitivity) is straight behind the barrel of the mic. Aim that null at the monitor. The reality is that you can't fight Physics, so use it to your maximum advantage.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 14, 2015, 09:39:11 pm
I think I'll run how most do and thats not using the insert but definitely pick up an eq for my mains. Should I get a fbq3102 like for my monitors or the fbq6200 which has a pink noise generator?
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Scott Wagner on June 14, 2015, 10:26:40 pm
I think I'll run how most do and thats not using the insert but definitely pick up an eq for my mains. Should I get a fbq3102 like for my monitors or the fbq6200 which has a pink noise generator?
I can't see what you'd gain from the pink noise generator, unless you've got a measurement rig & the chops to use it correctly. Save yourself some money.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: duane massey on June 14, 2015, 10:30:52 pm
For basic set up, Ivan is correct. All of the tools mentioned (physical positioning, EQ's, FBX, etc) are all very useful IF used properly.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 14, 2015, 11:42:49 pm
I can't see what you'd gain from the pink noise generator, unless you've got a measurement rig & the chops to use it correctly. Save yourself some money.

Sounds good. I'll purchase the fbq3102 for my mains
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 14, 2015, 11:46:08 pm
For basic set up, Ivan is correct. All of the tools mentioned (physical positioning, EQ's, FBX, etc) are all very useful IF used properly.

Will definitely pay attention to postioning, Ive avoided feedback in the past without using an eq via placement and just the channel eq's
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Jerome Malsack on June 15, 2015, 08:46:12 am
Also consider the pattern of the horn on the speakers. 

Some of the horns are designed to be used in a vertical upright position. 

These horns on the speakers direct the sound off the ceiling and down into the crowd.  So the monitor to the right or left could present as the problem and not the one behind the mic.

The sound from these type of horns will be pointing the sound down across the LF driver at a 10 to 30 degree angel.  The side lobe of the SM58 may pick this up. 
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Bill McIntosh on June 15, 2015, 09:28:44 am
Also consider the pattern of the horn on the speakers. 

Some of the horns are designed to be used in a vertical upright position. 

These horns on the speakers direct the sound off the ceiling and down into the crowd.  So the monitor to the right or left could present as the problem and not the one behind the mic.

The sound from these type of horns will be pointing the sound down across the LF driver at a 10 to 30 degree angel.  The side lobe of the SM58 may pick this up.

I bought some short speaker stands (Yorkville SKS-02B) and use my monitors vertically instead of horizontally on the floor. (Alto TS112A boxes.)  Have not had feedback issues since then. 

First gig, the band asked me turn the monitors down, too loud.  Not only got better pattern control, but it reduced the distance to their ears by at least half -- closer to 2/3 for our 6'3" keyboard player.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 15, 2015, 02:32:44 pm
Again the question, how many monitor mixes are you supplying.  While you can definitely optimize things with eqs on each monitor, you can also get wrapped around the axel.  e.g. which wedge is feeding back? from which mic? and so on.

I agree with the advice to simplify.  If you can, one monitor mix with one eq on that and the other eq on the mains.

Practice hearing frequencies.  There are online tools to practice this as well.

The biggest thing I've seen is the difference between carving out frequencies to get the highest level setting without feedback vs. getting intelligibility for the singers.  A few months ago I did this gig with a classic rock band and the leader had this big pile of gear.  Separate monitor board and everything.  Unfortunately most of it was low end gear but that's another story.  He was "ringing out" the monitors as I was setting up my drums.  The singers were complaining that it was muddy and they couldn't hear themselves clearly, even over the guitarist noodling around.  I went back to his pile of FOH racks and he said that he had automatic eqs that indicated which frequency was feeding back (which I think is a Peavey thing) and he had the monitors (one for each singer) with what was essentially a smile curve.  I flattened them out, took out the low end, found a couple of frequencies that dominated feeding back and dropped them maybe 6-dB and left everything else alone.  If you chop a bunch of frequencies you reduce the overall level and you actually end up with this scalloped response that is more prone to feedback as you turn up to make up for the lost level.  Remember that the intent is for the singers to hear themselves.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 15, 2015, 03:04:57 pm
Rider does say 4 seperate monitor mixes
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on June 15, 2015, 03:10:58 pm
Rider does say 4 seperate monitor mixes

Just curious, but how did you come to get a job where there are specific rider requirements when you have no experience in providing what's called for?
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 15, 2015, 04:46:06 pm
How flat is your mains system?  Do you normally run eq on that?  Or do you already have that end covered?

That mixer doesn't have 4 pre-fader aux sends.  2 of the sends will follow the channel faders.  You could fake it but you really can't provide 4 discrete monitor mixes.  You either need something like a modern digital board or something like an Allen & Heath MixWiz (which can be had used for $3-400 and will sound better and be more reliable anyway, and actually does have "British eq and preamps" being designed and built in the UK)

Somehow, this sounds like a folk group singing harmony.  Typically you run one monitor mix and let them blend themselves.  They also tend to stand fairly close on stage, within earshot of multiple monitors.  Having separate monitors means they have no idea what their balance or blend is.  Unless they can't sing their parts without having "more me" and then expect you to actively blend them.

In any event, I would still run each channel of eq between the mixers outs and the amps/speakers.  eq for monitors is somewhat different than the eq for mains and you don't want them tied together.

Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 15, 2015, 06:02:55 pm
Just curious, but how did you come to get a job where there are specific rider requirements when you have no experience in providing what's called for?

I wouldn't say I have zero experience.  I have provided 4 separate monitor mixes in the past, this is just the first time I'm going to add EQ.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 15, 2015, 06:21:57 pm
How flat is your mains system?  Do you normally run eq on that?  Or do you already have that end covered?

That mixer doesn't have 4 pre-fader aux sends.  2 of the sends will follow the channel faders.  You could fake it but you really can't provide 4 discrete monitor mixes.  You either need something like a modern digital board or something like an Allen & Heath MixWiz (which can be had used for $3-400 and will sound better and be more reliable anyway, and actually does have "British eq and preamps" being designed and built in the UK)

Somehow, this sounds like a folk group singing harmony.  Typically you run one monitor mix and let them blend themselves.  They also tend to stand fairly close on stage, within earshot of multiple monitors.  Having separate monitors means they have no idea what their balance or blend is.  Unless they can't sing their parts without having "more me" and then expect you to actively blend them.

In any event, I would still run each channel of eq between the mixers outs and the amps/speakers.  eq for monitors is somewhat different than the eq for mains and you don't want them tied together.

I don't normally run an EQ. I was thinking of adding an EQ for the mains if I put the EQ's that I just bought at the inserts. But from what your saying it sounds like even if I did put them at the inserts, I should have one for the mains anyway.

I was going to run them all post fader. I actually have a yamaha mg24 but will leave that in the van as back up.

Its actually a popular local reggae band. From what others have said, they like it loud. They'll be fairly near each other, this is not a 1000 person venue, maybe 300 at the most. Im thinking that the gear I'm providing is actually overkill.

You can get a feel for the venue by taking a look at this video from youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxb5CCU7pSA
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 15, 2015, 06:39:02 pm

That mixer doesn't have 4 pre-fader aux sends.  2 of the sends will follow the channel faders.  You could fake it but you really can't provide 4 discrete monitor mixes. 

I can't have 4 discrete monitor mixes unless I have 4 pre-fader aux sends?

EDIT: I get it, if I adjust faders for the main mix the monitor mix will be affected.... I could send each vocal to individual subgroups and control the main mix of vocals there couldn't I?
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 15, 2015, 07:01:11 pm
If you have a Yamaha MG24/14FX why bother to buy the less capable Behringer analog mixer?  Spend that money on better eqs.  With the boom in digital boards all kinds of folks are dumping pro level eqs like Klark Technic or Ashley.  You don't need the auto indicators on those FBQ things.  Having dealt with ones that people had in their PAs, those things turn stuff to mud anyway you try to work it.

Yes, in an analog set up it is common to have graphics on every output.  You have good speakers so you shouldn't need a ton of correction.  Just a spot here and there.

That Yamaha will drive 4 separate monitor mixes (pre-fade) and still allow effects.  Which I would expect a reggae band will at least want some delay.  The issue may be stage volume.  Don't know how loud they play vs. wanting it loud out front.  You may want to raise the wedges up on milk crates or something to get them closer to the singers.  The built in angles presuppose that the singer is 10' back from the wedge.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 15, 2015, 08:08:42 pm
If you have a Yamaha MG24/14FX why bother to buy the less capable Behringer analog mixer?  Spend that money on better eqs.  With the boom in digital boards all kinds of folks are dumping pro level eqs like Klark Technic or Ashley.  You don't need the auto indicators on those FBQ things.  Having dealt with ones that people had in their PAs, those things turn stuff to mud anyway you try to work it.

Yes, in an analog set up it is common to have graphics on every output.  You have good speakers so you shouldn't need a ton of correction.  Just a spot here and there.

That Yamaha will drive 4 separate monitor mixes (pre-fade) and still allow effects.  Which I would expect a reggae band will at least want some delay.  The issue may be stage volume.  Don't know how loud they play vs. wanting it loud out front.  You may want to raise the wedges up on milk crates or something to get them closer to the singers.  The built in angles presuppose that the singer is 10' back from the wedge.

Firm believer in back up/redundancy which is reason for buying the xenyx2442 for this gig. Plus the yamaha is big and pretty old, couple channels don't work. Prefer to have yamaha as backup because I have an SKB case that fits the xenyx2442 as well as the EQ's (Less cable work at gig). Did I mention the yamaha is big? Why do I even have the mg24/14fx? It was cheap and stays in the van as back up for my little Yamaha MG10 on normal gigs. Oh yeah, did I mention the yamaha is big?  :)

I don't see many people raising the monitors from the floor, don't know how well it will go over with the band but will give it a try, I can easily remove them from on top of the crates if they don't like it.

To be honest I think I'm just star struck because they sing one of my favorite songs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfeoHTeL7Jo
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 18, 2015, 07:41:45 am
So I picked up a 3rd fbq3102 for my mains. When I wire this in, is it okay to use the "insert" on the mixer for the mains? Or should I go from XLR main out of mixer -> to the in of fbq3102, then out of fbq3102 -> to in of my mains?
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: John L Nobile on June 18, 2015, 07:52:08 am
So I picked up a 3rd fbq3102 for my mains. When I wire this in, is it okay to use the "insert" on the mixer for the mains? Or should I go from XLR main out of mixer -> to the in of fbq3102, then out of fbq3102 -> to in of my mains?

I always choose inserts if available.
BTW,  raising monitors to ear level is great in theory. I've always had mine there. But I found a lot of musicians like them further away. Especially guitar players. They seem to have evolved to grow ears in the back of their knees.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 18, 2015, 12:23:09 pm
I run my main eq as an insert.  It simplifies the gain staging.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Mac Kerr on June 18, 2015, 12:39:30 pm
So I picked up a 3rd fbq3102 for my mains. When I wire this in, is it okay to use the "insert" on the mixer for the mains? Or should I go from XLR main out of mixer -> to the in of fbq3102, then out of fbq3102 -> to in of my mains?

Either way is OK on the mains since you can hear the speakers and are aware of what the changes are. Where inserts have the advantage is with monitors, where you can't actually hear the changes the eq is making at FOH unless you use inserts so the changes are reflected in the AFL.

Mac
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Mike Karseboom on June 19, 2015, 02:04:34 pm
Joseph - props to you for thinking ahead and trying to head off problems before they start.  Good on you for having backups also.  It sounds like you have done more DJ stuff and maybe not worked with live bands quite as much, so I offer this info from my limited experience in similar situations.


Looking at that video and the pictures of the venue it does not look that bad.  It is big enough that you really should not have a problem with feedback from the mains.  The glass and other hard surfaces are no doubt creating a very reverberant space though and vocal intelligibility and possibly low-mid buildup might be a problem that your mains eq could help with.  Every situation is different of course but often some substantial cuts around 200-250Hz help with mud in the room. You just have to try it and  not be afraid to play around a little. 


Also if you are using subs in a really live room use them on an aux and see if you can get away with limiting the total sub output.  Often a reggae bassist will carry the room with his amp whether you want him too or not!   The video shows a common, but not necessarily  optimum, mains speaker positioning.  To maximize your vocal intelligibility in a case like this I would try to get the speakers up much higher on the poles and aim them down and in right at the front of the crowd using tilters. Heck 10' high and 15 degrees down and 30 degrees in might at least give you great clarity for the for the first half of the room.  Sometimes that would be considered a significant achievement.   


You can also use your channel EQ to make cuts at 2-3kHz for guitar, snare, and anything else that might be crowding that key vocal range. Since it is reggae you might be providing a nice fat delay but in a room like that I would not  add any reverb until you are absolutely sure it makes an improvement.


Any feedback problems you have will almost surely come from the monitors.  The stage is a little "cave like" and the ceiling is hard.  But the drapes help deaden it and it even looks carpeted.  It can't be that bad unless the band's stage volume is out of control.  SM58's are usually pretty good with rejecting feedback if you keep the monitors in the null. 


Trying to fix feedback problems with EQ can be tough and it is much easier to try and create a situation that is less prone to feedback in the first place.  To try and preempt feedback problems I would take these steps:


- get away with as few open mics as you can.  Indoors you typically don't need full drum mic'ing.  Just use a kick mic, set up a snare and OH and then don't use them if you don't have to . That is, test them in sound check but then turn them way down or leave them off until you determine you absolutely need them.  DI the bass if that is an option. I f a guitarist offers you a DI option, take it.


- thoughtfully position the monitors with respect to the mics.  For example if you have a drum monitor get it up at the drummer's head level on some sort of stand rather than on the floor and try to point it slightly back and away from the rest of the stage. 


- Use your channel strips to cut 80Hz or higher from every mic you can.  On a drum OH possibly cut all the way up to 250Hz.  On your monitor EQ's consider rolling off below 85Hz or so and if low mids are a problem possibly some dips around the 250Hz mark.


-  You can try ringing out the monitors without the band on stage but don't go too crazy with cuts.  If you have sever problems and are making more than one or two cuts at this point go back to the previous steps.


- That is most of what you can do by yourself.  Next it is up to the band to work with you.  Part of that is having the confidence to help them make good choices.  For example, don't put anything in the monitors unless specifically asked for.  Then, if they say "just put a little of everything in all the monitors", diplomatically avoid doing that.  Things like Kick  should only be needed by the drummer and bassist even though others may request it.  bring up FOH to full volume so they hear some wash from the mains and maybe they will get what they need from that.


- After you have tried to eliminate as much gak as possible from getting into the in the monitors in the first place, the band can still defeat you if they have a crazy loud stage volume.  All it takes is a super loud drummer or a guitarist or bassist that won't turn down to make it so the vocalists can't hear themselves.  Again you have to be diplomatic but have confidence to suggest lower volumes from those instruments.  Tell them " hey we don't even have the guitar in the mains at this point and I already can't get the vocals above that without causing ear bleeds" or  "your fans really want to hear great your great sound and right now there is so much volume coming off the stage its louder than the mains".  Of course some bands will work with you and some won't.


With a room that big, and a stage like that, and with the decent gear you are using, I think feedback problems will be mostly self inflicted.  If you have problems try to get at the root of the problem and save your eq's for a last resort and fine tuning.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 19, 2015, 02:27:49 pm
Just looked at that video since Mike had some suggestions about dealing with the venue.  Wow, Halawa, takes me back.  I lived in Salt Lake just before moving to the mainland although my dad still lives on the windward side.  I moved to town when I worked at Easy Music in the '70s.  Where I lashed up plenty of MacGuyver PAs for various shows the store promoted.

Live room, dead stage, leads to two problems.  As Mike said, pointing your tops at the core of the audience and away from the walls and ceiling will help.  The other thing is that with that drapery around the stage.  Often, HF damping on a stage makes it sound dead.  I used to play in the Tiki Broiler in the International Marketplace in the late '70s and they had padding and heavy drapes all around the stage.  You could pound the snot out of the drums and it still didn't sound like you were doing much.  Stage volume didn't sound like much to the band.  But in the room it could be really loud.  Nowadays some people are more used to letting the PA handle things and play quieter on stage.  But if they start wanting to get down, the temptation to crank up on stage will be strong.

As Mike mentioned, your worse enemy will probably be mid bass build up.  Besides the 100Hz cut, you are probably going to need to cut around 300Hz on lots of the channel strips just to keep the roar down.  Hopefully you have better musicians who will play more quietly and make it work.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 24, 2015, 10:21:21 pm

When you say "roll offf" below 85 on monitor eq, does that mean something special? Does that mean just bring the fader all the way down on everything 85 and below? Or start at 85 and go lower with each lower frequency?
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 24, 2015, 11:06:02 pm
The attempt here will be to "roll off" frequencies that your cabinets won't reproduce to begin with. Vocals won't usually need reinforcement below 80hz, and I feel certain none of the cabinets you're going to use have that type of range either. Eliminating signal below 80-90hz will also eliminate sound from other sources that may tend to be picked up and would otherwise "muddy" the monitor mix.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 24, 2015, 11:57:52 pm
In addition, more low end playing back at the stage adds to the mud that the musicians hear.  Often making it harder for them to hear things the many folks will turn up to compensate making the problem worse.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 27, 2015, 08:36:15 pm
Thanks for the help eveyrone, gig was last night. It went ok, reminded me of why I don't do more SR work.

Stage was hot! Not very big, we usually set up dj rig in less than 30min, took almost 2 hours! Break down is usually less than 20 minutes, took 45 after I had even started breaking down monitors/mics and hour earlier.

Contract was 4 separate mixes so we originally had it set up so that each vocal could here their own mic. The main lead vocal asked if the wedges were separate mixes, i said yes. He told us what he wanted and we gave it to him, he wanted piano and his vocals on all wedges with no bassist. Then he had us adjust his highs and lows then he said "make everyones the same". What we did was make all the highs and lows the same for everyone. Then when the performance started, the other vocals said they needed more gain, we kept giving it to them and I was thinking wtf? We were set up behind one of the vocals and I could here him really loud. I could tell they were really irritated and kept raising their gains to the point of feedback. Then one of the vocals said "I cant here myself on their side (wedges). After we put all vocals on all wedges they didnt ask for anything. Either they got what they oringially wanted, or they were tired of asking.

You wanna know where I'm putting my eq's and all the other gear I bought for this gig? Craigslist, I dont want to work that hard anymore


Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 27, 2015, 11:44:34 pm
Sounds like an amateur band that doesn't know what they want.  I remember doing a wooden music festival (Kalapana/Country Comfort type stuff) at Windward CC back in the Easy Music days.  Bunch of living room groups that weren't used to playing out but thought they knew what the big time was.  Kept asking for more of themselves in the monitors and then when they could hear themselves, they'd back off the mic.  It was a constant struggle to turn them down so they'd get on the mic and people could hear them in the mains only to get the more me sign, give them a bit, try to get them back up in the main mix when they backed off the mic, rinse and repeat all day long.

Sometimes it is hard.  But you learn.  And you learn tricks to get you through.  And then you get with pros who know how to mix themselves and it's a breeze.  Which gives you a better idea what to do with the next garage band.  It's all about getting the music to the audience.  A band that knows how to play, you just help them with reinforcement of what they are already doing.  Those less optimum gigs, you learn to mix.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Joseph Ugalino on June 29, 2015, 04:04:19 pm
I'm sure glad nobody cares about my spelling lol.

I think the band knew what they wanted, it was what was on the rider that screwed things up.

I'm guessing their manager created the rider and not the band members. When it came down to it, they didnt need 4 wedges with 4 separate mixes, they just needed 4 wedges. Which makes me even more disgusted because I could have gotten by with just one eq, and i also didnt need to run independant speaker wires to each wedge, could have left the other rack in the van....... So much work that wasnt needed.

Well at least I got paid, could have saved the customer some money had I known what was really needed
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Scott Wagner on June 30, 2015, 10:45:47 am
I'm sure glad nobody cares about my spelling lol.

I think the band knew what they wanted, it was what was on the rider that screwed things up.

I'm guessing their manager created the rider and not the band members. When it came down to it, they didnt need 4 wedges with 4 separate mixes, they just needed 4 wedges. Which makes me even more disgusted because I could have gotten by with just one eq, and i also didnt need to run independant speaker wires to each wedge, could have left the other rack in the van....... So much work that wasnt needed.

Well at least I got paid, could have saved the customer some money had I known what was really needed
You got an incorrect Tech Rider? Welcome to the world of live sound. I've never understood the difficulty in figuring out what you need, and communicating that accurately with the technical staff. It seems so simple, yet so many get it wrong.
Title: Re: Where do I place my eq's
Post by: Stephen Kirby on June 30, 2015, 01:33:08 pm
I think that at the lounge level people read the internet, pick up bits and pieces, and often make up the rest for themselves trying to appear varsity.  Then they write things on riders (often some of their first experiences with such things) that they don't really understand or have the need for.  As an old boss used to say;  "Those of you that think you know what you are doing greatly amuse those of us who do."  Like the festival I mentioned earlier with bunches of performers who'd never played on a stage up in the air before and had all kinds of wild ideas of what it would be like.

Most of the festivals I've played around the Bay Area are provided by Raul.  So I typically just give the organizers an input list and have another printed out for whoever's working that day.  I've called him to verify backline a couple of times.  Whatever he brings to the show is going to be at least as good and typically better than what we normally use so it's silly to try and write down all kinds of requirements.