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Title: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Aram Piligian on June 10, 2015, 08:09:58 am
Woke up this morning to see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X_UDQPmq0c

Product homepage: http://dlive.allen-heath.com

I personally don't have experience using consoles at this level (yet!), but it looks pretty cool.  At first glance, it seems like there's a nice balance of touchscreen vs. encoder use, and I like the location/resolution of the metering at every channel.

Hopefully they smooth out the touchscreen scrolling, though.  Based on the video, it looks a little choppy, and that's just one of those things that drives you nuts.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on June 10, 2015, 08:47:39 am
Have they released the price points?

Its probably not a console that I would buy to use with my set-up (I'm dreaming of a Rack Mount console with 64 input channels of processing).
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Simon Lewis on June 10, 2015, 09:02:46 am
One of the press releases said, "Prices range from $22,500 for a small dLive venue solution to approximately $35,000 for a large touring system"
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Michael J Palmer on June 10, 2015, 04:26:52 pm
One of the press releases said, "Prices range from $22,500 for a small dLive venue solution to approximately $35,000 for a large touring system"

Matt, we have that, its in the iLive series, you can just get an iDR-64 Mix Rack and control the whole thing with your MAC/PC and iPad... thats a very powerful setup
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Mac Kerr on June 10, 2015, 04:38:17 pm
Matt, we have that, its in the iLive series, you can just get an iDR-64 Mix Rack and control the whole thing with your MAC/PC and iPad... thats a very powerful setup

If you are responding to Matt, why did you quote Simon? Use the quote button in the post you are responding to.

Mac
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Michael Elphinstone on June 10, 2015, 04:52:11 pm
Looks great, but as an iLive owner I now suspect my desk is now entering the dreaded "end of life" :(
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Kim Guibord on June 10, 2015, 07:22:35 pm
Looks great, but as an iLive owner I now suspect my desk is now entering the dreaded "end of life" :(
That is why I sold my ilive system.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 10, 2015, 07:33:25 pm
Woke up this morning to see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X_UDQPmq0c

Product homepage: http://dlive.allen-heath.com

I personally don't have experience using consoles at this level (yet!), but it looks pretty cool.  At first glance, it seems like there's a nice balance of touchscreen vs. encoder use, and I like the location/resolution of the metering at every channel.

Hopefully they smooth out the touchscreen scrolling, though.  Based on the video, it looks a little choppy, and that's just one of those things that drives you nuts.

Yes it’s very cool – it looks great, feels great, quick and intuitive to use, probably the best UI I have seen on any digital desk. The touch screen has very smooth scrolling.

It has HUGE DSP power; think in terms of being more powerful than a Midas XL8 and more than twice that of an iLive.

d-Live - 96KHz, 128 in, 64 out, 64 GEQs, 16 EFX

XL8 - 96KHz, 112 in, 51 out, 51 GEQs, 16 EFX

This is a very serious Pro desk from Allen Heath at a respectable price.  I don’t think anything comes close in its price bracket.

@ Michael – Allen & Heath will be continuing support for the iLive, they are a great company that does look after its customers. The d-Live runs Giga-ACE, but you will be able to fit an ACE card to the d-Live and run your iLive for monitors … but in terms of performance it leaves my iLive and Midas Pro2 for dead. 
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Michael J Palmer on June 11, 2015, 12:34:36 am
Peter, Yes, we will have a "Letter Box Adaptor" that will allow you to install a standard ACE card into one of the 5 card slots and do a digital split to an existing iLive, in fact you can do the digital split via any of the current I/O card setups.

Your iLive will still need its own mix rack, as that system is native to the iLive surface and the new DM series racks are native to the new S series surfaces, but you can digitally split between desks (64 channels to an iLive)

If you have (2) dLive systems, then you will be able to share the 128 channels between systems with digital gain tracking (in a future firmware) we will have a 128 Channel Giga-Ace card, which will also allow 2 surfaces on 1 DM rack provided you don't go over the chancel count (so effectively you could have 2 x 64 channel systems off 1 mix rack) however just keep in mind there is still One scene memory for the rack.

We will have more in-depth case studies and system examples as this product nears its go live date to the public which will be late August/Sept, until then we will be in a pretty extensive Beta with multiple users before it goes out public.
 The system is capable of a total of 848 x848 with the new 128 channel option cards (5 of them!)
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Mark Rombouts on June 11, 2015, 03:55:31 am
Is the expansion I/O of Dlive compatible with DSnake of the cheaper GLD/Qu range ?
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 11, 2015, 07:32:16 am
Is the expansion I/O of Dlive compatible with DSnake of the cheaper GLD/Qu range ?

No its not.  Processing is in the rack so it uses audio and full control down the cat5. It has so many inputs AH developed Giga-ACE. Giga ACE is not compatible with the old ACE or Dsnake.

The d-live is a serious Pro desk targeted way above the Qu / GLD range.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Steve Payne on June 11, 2015, 08:39:16 am
Peter, Yes, we will have a "Letter Box Adaptor" that will allow you to install a standard ACE card into one of the 5 card slots and do a digital split to an existing iLive, in fact you can do the digital split via any of the current I/O card setups.

Your iLive will still need its own mix rack, as that system is native to the iLive surface and the new DM series racks are native to the new S series surfaces, but you can digitally split between desks (64 channels to an iLive)

If you have (2) dLive systems, then you will be able to share the 128 channels between systems with digital gain tracking (in a future firmware) we will have a 128 Channel Giga-Ace card, which will also allow 2 surfaces on 1 DM rack provided you don't go over the chancel count (so effectively you could have 2 x 64 channel systems off 1 mix rack) however just keep in mind there is still One scene memory for the rack.

We will have more in-depth case studies and system examples as this product nears its go live date to the public which will be late August/Sept, until then we will be in a pretty extensive Beta with multiple users before it goes out public.
 The system is capable of a total of 848 x848 with the new 128 channel option cards (5 of them!)

Hi, Michael!
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Samuel Rees on June 11, 2015, 12:01:53 pm
Hi, Michael!

So Dante or something would be the easiest way to get things to and from a GLD from a dLive?
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 11, 2015, 07:56:42 pm
So Dante or something would be the easiest way to get things to and from a GLD from a dLive?

As I understand you could use Dante or ACE.  You can also use two surfaces with one rack with the d-Live, one for FOH and one for FB – a very cost effective solution.

Just to give you an idea of how powerful the d-Live is I have done a quick comparison. It’s a bit tricky to find the information and difficult to do a really good comparison because of the different way things are specified, so I have taken my best guess … please excuse any mistakes  :-\

•   Digico – SD7 – 48/96/192 KHz, 256 processing channels, 128 busses, GEQs 32, EFX 48, 5.1 capable, Latency 1.1ms
•   AVID SL6 / EL6-192 – 48/96 KHz, 192 processing channels, 96 busses, 32 GEQs, Plug-ins 200, DCA’s 24
•   Midas Pro X – 96KHz, 168 processing channels, 99 busses, 36 GEQs, 40 EFX, 5.1 capable, latency 2ms
•   dLive – 96KHz, 160 processing channels, 64 busses, 64 GEQs, 16 EFX, 5.1 capable, Latency 0.58ms, DCA’s 24
•   Digico SD10 - 48/96 KHz, 96 /108 processing channels, 48/71 busses, GEQs 24, EFX 16, Latency 1.1ms, DCA’s 24
•   Soundcraft Vi6 – 48/96 KHz, 96 inputs, 35 busses, latency 2ms, 16 DCA’s
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on June 11, 2015, 08:01:44 pm
As I understand you could use Dante or ACE.  You can also use two surfaces with one rack with the d-Live, one for FOH and one for FB – a very cost effective solution.

Just to give you an idea of how powerful the d-Live is I have done a quick comparison. It’s a bit tricky to find the information and difficult to do a really good comparison because of the different way things are specified, so I have taken my best guess … please excuse any mistakes  :-\

•   Digico – SD7 – 48/96/192 KHz, 256 processing channels, 128 busses, GEQs 32, EFX 48, 5.1 capable, Latency 1.1ms
•   AVID SL6 / EL6-192 – 48/96 KHz, 192 processing channels, 96 busses, 32 GEQs, Plug-ins 200, DCA’s 24
•   Midas Pro X – 96KHz, 168 processing channels, 99 busses, 36 GEQs, 40 EFX, 5.1 capable, latency 2ms
•   dLive – 96KHz, 160 processing channels, 64 busses, 64 GEQs, 16 EFX, 5.1 capable, Latency 0.58ms, DCA’s 24
•   Digico SD10 - 48/96 KHz, 96 /108 processing channels, 71 busses, GEQs 24, EFX 16, Latency 1.1ms, DCA’s 24
•   Soundcraft Vi6 – 48/96 KHz, 96 inputs, 35 busses, latency 2ms, 16 DCA’s

Peter,
Not that I want you to do more work, but many would like to see how the PM10 stacks up to this lineup.

Edit: And maybe also the Roland Orcha M-5000
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 11, 2015, 09:01:24 pm
Peter,
Not that I want you to do more work, but many would like to see how the PM10 stacks up to this lineup.

Edit: And maybe also the Roland Orcha M-5000

It’s very tricky with the Roland Orcha M-5000. It has configurable architecture eg.  94 in + 16 aux + 8 matrix ..or.. 74 in + 48 aux + headphones, talkback etc.  It has a total of 128 inputs + outputs.
   
It can manage 300 inputs and 296 outputs on the network. The d-Live in comparison can manage 814 inputs and 824 outputs.
 
PM10 - 44.1/48/88.2/96KHz, 144 inputs, 72 mix busses, 36 matrix busses, 48 GEQs, 24 DCAs, Network Latency  11 samples @44.1 KHz, 12 samples @ 88.2KHz.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on June 11, 2015, 10:05:17 pm
Michael J Palmer,

I am confused, you signature line says that you are “VP Sales Allen & Heath and Turbosound USA”. I thought that Music Group bought Turbosound. Can you please explain.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Jeff Carter on June 11, 2015, 10:52:59 pm
Looks great, but as an iLive owner I now suspect my desk is now entering the dreaded "end of life" :(

Probably getting there--but the iLive kind of lives in that space between the dLive and GLD (both in terms of price and channel count), at least for now. I'd expect that eventually we'll see a new product based on the same FPGA architecture that will be sized more like the current version of iLive (maybe a GLD MkII with 64 in and 32 out?)
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Ryan O John on June 12, 2015, 04:18:53 am
I'd love to see how the latency numbers work on the DLive.  What's the path?  from Analog input on Stage Rack to Analog Output on Stage rack after hitting a full processed channel?

Just FYI the DigiCo numbers for Processing Channels INCLUDE the busses.


As I understand you could use Dante or ACE.  You can also use two surfaces with one rack with the d-Live, one for FOH and one for FB – a very cost effective solution.

Just to give you an idea of how powerful the d-Live is I have done a quick comparison. It’s a bit tricky to find the information and difficult to do a really good comparison because of the different way things are specified, so I have taken my best guess … please excuse any mistakes  :-\

•   Digico – SD7 – 48/96/192 KHz, 256 processing channels, 128 busses, GEQs 32, EFX 48, 5.1 capable, Latency 1.1ms
•   AVID SL6 / EL6-192 – 48/96 KHz, 192 processing channels, 96 busses, 32 GEQs, Plug-ins 200, DCA’s 24
•   Midas Pro X – 96KHz, 168 processing channels, 99 busses, 36 GEQs, 40 EFX, 5.1 capable, latency 2ms
•   dLive – 96KHz, 160 processing channels, 64 busses, 64 GEQs, 16 EFX, 5.1 capable, Latency 0.58ms, DCA’s 24
•   Digico SD10 - 48/96 KHz, 96 /108 processing channels, 71 busses, GEQs 24, EFX 16, Latency 1.1ms, DCA’s 24
•   Soundcraft Vi6 – 48/96 KHz, 96 inputs, 35 busses, latency 2ms, 16 DCA’s
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 12, 2015, 04:30:15 am
Probably getting there--but the iLive kind of lives in that space between the dLive and GLD (both in terms of price and channel count), at least for now. I'd expect that eventually we'll see a new product based on the same FPGA architecture that will be sized more like the current version of iLive (maybe a GLD MkII with 64 in and 32 out?)

Ten years ago the iLive was actually a very powerful and excellent sounding desk – 64 channels and 32 Aux’s all with GEQs and the effects were gorgeous. In comparison the Yamaha PM5d had 48 channels and 24 Aux’s; however the market never perceived the iLive for what it really was.

I suspect that d-Live is actually a replacement for the iLive, however as I understand the iLive will continue at a very completive price. The iLive modular (idr 10) recently received a CPU upgrade and is still in terms of performance, a very respectable desk, as is the iLive T.

The d-Live comes with 3 surface sizes and 3 rack sizes. When you consider the Allen and Heath range.

•   Qu – 16,24,32,
•   GLD 80, 112,
•   iLiveT 80, 112,
•   d-live 3000, 5000, 7000

I think they have all bases covered.

You have to also consider that Digico, Calrec and Allen & Heath are now the same company.
http://www.allen-heath.com/digico-allen-heath-calrec-announce-formation-new-proaudio-group/

Digico has also just released a Gen 3 console; the S21 that seems to fit into one of those spaces.
http://www.digico.biz/s21/

I have meet James Gordon and some of his team from Digico as well as some of the senior guys from Allen and Heath – Like all of us on this board they are very ethical, have a passion for all things audio & customer service. I’m expecting great things from this new company.

Sorry to sound like I work for the group – I don’t – I was just soooo impressed when I had a play the d-Live recently in Bangkok ;)

I believe it will be at InfoComm - check it out, it will be worth your time.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Rob Hughes on June 12, 2015, 05:39:53 am
Whilst latency is being discussed, I'd just like to throw in our Cadac CDC8 and CDC6 consoles, which are going to be hard to beat latency-wise.

Analogue stagebox input -> analogue stagbox output including all processing and latency managment (input - group - master - matrix) at 96kHz - 0.38 ms.

Add our 3072 audio router (including gain compensation across multiple console outputs) into the equation and it only increases the overall latecy to 0.39 ms.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on June 12, 2015, 06:37:17 am
Whilst latency is being discussed, I'd just like to throw in our Cadac CDC8 and CDC6 consoles, which are going to be hard to beat latency-wise.

Analogue stagebox input -> analogue stagbox output including all processing and latency managment (input - group - master - matrix) at 96kHz - 0.38 ms.

Add our 3072 audio router (including gain compensation across multiple console outputs) into the equation and it only increases the overall latecy to 0.39 ms.

This is exceptional in terms of latency, however, we are in real danger of getting into semantics.  IMHO anything sub 5ms is workable, and most quoting sub 2ms is not an issue.  Channel count is now also getting to extreme levels in that the vast majority of top level pro shows are still less than 48 channels.  The guys that do the grammy awards ceremony reckon that they use 180 in total and that includes multiple bands, announcements/presenters, surround for broadcast, video audio feeds.

Elegance of interface, having the right tools available to cover the job, contextual information layout are still where even the latest boards seem to still have issues.  Live mixing is still a very fluid environment and speed of use/simplicity is what we should be aiming for.

My $0.02c worth! ;)
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 12, 2015, 07:08:42 am
This is exceptional in terms of latency, however, we are in real danger of getting into semantics.  IMHO anything sub 5ms is workable, and most quoting sub 2ms is not an issue.  Channel count is now also getting to extreme levels in that the vast majority of top level pro shows are still less than 48 channels.  The guys that do the grammy awards ceremony reckon that they use 180 in total and that includes multiple bands, announcements/presenters, surround for broadcast, video audio feeds.

Elegance of interface, having the right tools available to cover the job, contextual information layout are still where even the latest boards seem to still have issues.  Live mixing is still a very fluid environment and speed of use/simplicity is what we should be aiming for.

My $0.02c worth! ;)

Hi Roland,

I have to agree – all of these consoles have enough inputs and outputs and their latency is low enough not to be an issue for virtually any job.

Having said that; there are advantages with low latency consoles, especially for fold-back applications. There are always other delays in the system such as digital radio mics, it can all add up very quickly to 5 or more ms. The less each contribute to the latency the better.   
 
As you said, speed and simplicity is one of the real issues – this is what I was so impressed with on the d-Live. You can see a little bit of it in AH’s video, but it’s not until you use the desk do you appreciate what a great job the team has done.

The d-Live looked and felt great, it was quick and initiative to use – I’m sure everyone’s mileage will differ but I just loved this board - as you may have gathered  ;D
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on June 12, 2015, 07:23:43 am
This is exceptional in terms of latency, however, we are in real danger of getting into semantics.  IMHO anything sub 5ms is workable, and most quoting sub 2ms is not an issue.  Channel count is now also getting to extreme levels in that the vast majority of top level pro shows are still less than 48 channels.  The guys that do the grammy awards ceremony reckon that they use 180 in total and that includes multiple bands, announcements/presenters, surround for broadcast, video audio feeds.

Elegance of interface, having the right tools available to cover the job, contextual information layout are still where even the latest boards seem to still have issues.  Live mixing is still a very fluid environment and speed of use/simplicity is what we should be aiming for.

My $0.02c worth! ;)

You're right about the latency. A few milliseconds is typically no problem at monitors, and lets be honest, most shows would be fine with a latency through FOH of 15-50ms.

However, you'd be surprised about channel counts. Most big pop acts easily head toward 96ch these days, and even modest TV shows (like The Voice) can easily have 144ch splits in place.

I've certainly done my fair share of shows where an SD7 was maxed out.

For me, my console choice these days comes down to 3 main things:

Notice none of those were sound quality. All the desks at this level sound good. Fact. Sure, they have their differences, but they are all good.

128 in to 128 out is a bunch of channels, but I'm more interested in what I can do with that than the number itself. Normally the amount of IO I need is dictated by the show, so that is what it is. The choice of console comes down to things like how are stereo or multichannel sources handled? How are stereo auxes handled? How flexible is the routing through the console? How easy is it to record, or do a virtual soundcheck?

Surface ergonomics are obviously key. Most of my work requires me to do things very quickly.

The snapshot system is an often overlooked area of a console by manufacturers. you'd be surprised how many of these top consoles have average or poorly implemented automation. Most of my shows require a fair bit of programming, and few consoles get that right IMO. There is a reason most of the west-end runs on SD7s, and a big part of it is the snapshot engine.

Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Roland Clarke 1964 on June 12, 2015, 07:36:49 am
You're right about the latency. A few milliseconds is typically no problem at monitors, and lets be honest, most shows would be fine with a latency through FOH of 15-50ms.

However, you'd be surprised about channel counts. Most big pop acts easily head toward 96ch these days, and even modest TV shows (like The Voice) can easily have 144ch splits in place.

I've certainly done my fair share of shows where an SD7 was maxed out.

For me, my console choice these days comes down to 3 main things:
  • IO Flexibility
  • Surface Ergonomics
  • Snapshot system

Notice none of those were sound quality. All the desks at this level sound good. Fact. Sure, they have their differences, but they are all good.

128 in to 128 out is a bunch of channels, but I'm more interested in what I can do with that than the number itself. Normally the amount of IO I need is dictated by the show, so that is what it is. The choice of console comes down to things like how are stereo or multichannel sources handled? How are stereo auxes handled? How flexible is the routing through the console? How easy is it to record, or do a virtual soundcheck?

Surface ergonomics are obviously key. Most of my work requires me to do things very quickly.

The snapshot system is an often overlooked area of a console by manufacturers. you'd be surprised how many of these top consoles have average or poorly implemented automation. Most of my shows require a fair bit of programming, and few consoles get that right IMO. There is a reason most of the west-end runs on SD7s, and a big part of it is the snapshot engine.

I couldn't agree more, in regards to the sound quality issue.  I'm an Avid profile user and for small form jobs I just bought a Presonus RM32, the sound of which really impressed me as at this price point I wasn't expecting it.

I do agree a little with the inputs and outputs situation.   Mostly I find that having enough bus outs is more an issue these days, particularly with people going in ears and other feeds.  I can understand things like live TV requiring high input counts, (my example of the Grammys show above shows that), but even this shouldn't be that much of an issue in this day and age when we have several DAW's that can handle 200 + tracks without too much problem.  I do think that there are acts that are out there with stupid channel counts, many due to lack of planning or poor pre-production.  One very well known 5 piece band travels with 72 inputs and has a reputation amongst the hire company for poor sound.  Then you get the Stones, who by all accounts have a very low channel count.  15 years back, if you wanted more than 48 channels, you were carrying two desks and submixing, most worked out ways to keep less than 48 to avoid it. :)
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Michael J Palmer on June 12, 2015, 08:42:22 pm
Kevin My Bad, I haven't updated my Profile in quite some time... Ill fix it to avoid the confusion.


Michael J Palmer,

I am confused, you signature line says that you are “VP Sales Allen & Heath and Turbosound USA”. I thought that Music Group bought Turbosound. Can you please explain.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Michael J Palmer on June 12, 2015, 08:45:23 pm
 We are at .58  so still pretty good, and you guys are right , with latency this low, its all pretty mute point

Whilst latency is being discussed, I'd just like to throw in our Cadac CDC8 and CDC6 consoles, which are going to be hard to beat latency-wise.

Analogue stagebox input -> analogue stagbox output including all processing and latency managment (input - group - master - matrix) at 96kHz - 0.38 ms.

Add our 3072 audio router (including gain compensation across multiple console outputs) into the equation and it only increases the overall latecy to 0.39 ms.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 12, 2015, 09:48:11 pm
Chris and Roland,

With the massive shows you are talking about, one of the issues is what the network can deal with - in the dLives case its 814 system inputs and 824 outputs – that’s counting all possible patchable system inputs and outputs including MixRack, Surface, I/O Ports, expanders - the number of max sources and destinations the system can deal with.

So despite it attractive price, its going to be a very interesting and powerful desk.

The original iLive was a very good sounding desk, I have AB my iLives and Midas Pro series (AES out) and I cant hear the difference .  In terms of sound quality (forgetting the mic pre thing) there have always been trade offs with fix point and floating point architecture. There are different advantages with each. In this case the dLive is fixed but has an extreme bit depth combined with a 96 bit accumulator - the best of both worlds.

 
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Mac Kerr on June 12, 2015, 10:51:54 pm
This looks like a pretty promising console. It has a lot of I/O and what looks like a nice UI. It will be interesting to see how the scene memory and programming works. At first glance, a very attractive package.

Mac
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 13, 2015, 12:20:27 am
This looks like a pretty promising console. It has a lot of I/O and what looks like a nice UI. It will be interesting to see how the scene memory and programming works. At first glance, a very attractive package.

Mac

This was AH response to a similar question about scenes ...

"Scene Management has been one of the areas of focus for dLive software development. dLive has a Cue List manager, scene crossfades, embedded recalls (automated scene recalls), selective multiple scene update, recall undo and more."
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Samuel Rees on June 13, 2015, 02:43:50 am
This is exceptional in terms of latency, however, we are in real danger of getting into semantics.  IMHO anything sub 5ms is workable, and most quoting sub 2ms is not an issue.  Channel count is now also getting to extreme levels in that the vast majority of top level pro shows are still less than 48 channels.  The guys that do the grammy awards ceremony reckon that they use 180 in total and that includes multiple bands, announcements/presenters, surround for broadcast, video audio feeds.

Elegance of interface, having the right tools available to cover the job, contextual information layout are still where even the latest boards seem to still have issues.  Live mixing is still a very fluid environment and speed of use/simplicity is what we should be aiming for.

My $0.02c worth! ;)

Latency, even in the sub 5ms range, can be a real consideration for running in ear monitors. Also, console latency isn't to be considered just on its own. Digital consoles are often used alongside other digital gear with its own latency, like digital wireless microphone systems (Shure ULX-D lists 2.9ms latency), plugin processing, and network audio transmission. Starting with low console latency helps to keep total point to point latency down in complex systems.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Justin Bartlett on June 13, 2015, 03:40:51 pm
We are at .58  so still pretty good, and you guys are right , with latency this low, its all pretty mute point

*moot

[sorry, couldn't help it]

:)
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Mikael Holm on June 13, 2015, 04:29:19 pm
Peter, Yes, we will have a "Letter Box Adaptor" that will allow you to install a standard ACE card into one of the 5 card slots and do a digital split to an existing iLive, in fact you can do the digital split via any of the current I/O card setups.

If you have (2) dLive systems, then you will be able to share the 128 channels between systems with digital gain tracking

So there is no gain tracking if i do split between dLive and iLive (i have iDR-48 + T112).

With the software development on iLive frozen couple years ago i have been looking at other options and will still be.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Alex Donkle on June 14, 2015, 03:46:14 pm
No its not.  Processing is in the rack so it uses audio and full control down the cat5. It has so many inputs AH developed Giga-ACE. Giga ACE is not compatible with the old ACE or Dsnake.

One of my only disappointments with the dLive is that they haven't joined the Yamaha and Avid stagebox styles of using IP-based signals for stageboxes, instead they're sticking with point-to-point cabling like ACE. Likely not a major concern for tours, but for large installs this scheme isn't nearly as convenient.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 14, 2015, 07:08:10 pm
One of my only disappointments with the dLive is that they haven't joined the Yamaha and Avid stagebox styles of using IP-based signals for stageboxes, instead they're sticking with point-to-point cabling like ACE. Likely not a major concern for tours, but for large installs this scheme isn't nearly as convenient.

Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on June 17, 2015, 05:31:27 am
No its not.  Processing is in the rack so it uses audio and full control down the cat5. It has so many inputs AH developed Giga-ACE. Giga ACE is not compatible with the old ACE or Dsnake.

The d-live is a serious Pro desk targeted way above the Qu / GLD range.

I should add to this that you can fit an ACE card to the dLive and an ACE card to the GLD. I assume you can then transfer audio.

There are other options for the dLive and GLD ... Dante, Madi, Ethersound.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Ted Christensen on July 07, 2015, 12:55:16 am
I love this board already.  Sadly i have seen no mention of their version of midas pop groups. I wonder if they will have anything similar in the dlive? Also for as cool as this board will be im sure nothing will change much.. all the touring guys will still use a midas, avid or digico. I never see acts come through with A&H :(
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on July 07, 2015, 06:21:30 am
I love this board already.  Sadly i have seen no mention of their version of midas pop groups. I wonder if they will have anything similar in the dlive? Also for as cool as this board will be im sure nothing will change much.. all the touring guys will still use a midas, avid or digico. I never see acts come through with A&H :(

Yes it will have spill or pop groups. As I understand you do see iLives in Europe but not much in the US.

Allen and Heath make reliable good sounding consoles. They have put a huge amount of R&D into the dLive. Something like 40 Engineers and 25 man years of work!

I had a quick play with the dLive while in Thailand recently, and I own a Midas Pro2 … the dLive is the next level up. Its so powerful and so nice to use I suspect the rider thing will change.

AVID's S6L will probably become the number 1 large touring console, but I expect the dLive will win a lot of friends especially in the more price-conscious mid-level market.

S6L and dLive - best in show (consoles) Infocomm  http://www.mixonline.com/news/news-articles/newbay-infocomm-best-show-winners/424846
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Ted Christensen on July 07, 2015, 12:48:32 pm
Yes it will have spill or pop groups. As I understand you do see iLives in Europe but not much in the US.

Allen and Heath make reliable good sounding consoles. They have put a huge amount of R&D into the dLive. Something like 40 Engineers and 25 man years of work!

I had a quick play with the dLive while in Thailand recently, and I own a Midas Pro2 … the dLive is the next level up. Its so powerful and so nice to use I suspect the rider thing will change.

AVID's S6L will probably become the number 1 large touring console, but I expect the dLive will win a lot of friends especially in the more price-conscious mid-level market.

S6L and dLive - best in show (consoles) Infocomm  http://www.mixonline.com/news/news-articles/newbay-infocomm-best-show-winners/424846


That's good to know. Im aware allen and heath is huge in other countrys. It just never caught on over here (yet). I wonder if A&H will have some sort of trade in offer for old ilives to upgrade to a dlive.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Ryan O John on July 07, 2015, 02:37:05 pm
Yes it will have spill or pop groups. As I understand you do see iLives in Europe but not much in the US.

Allen and Heath make reliable good sounding consoles. They have put a huge amount of R&D into the dLive. Something like 40 Engineers and 25 man years of work!

I had a quick play with the dLive while in Thailand recently, and I own a Midas Pro2 … the dLive is the next level up. Its so powerful and so nice to use I suspect the rider thing will change.

AVID's S6L will probably become the number 1 large touring console, but I expect the dLive will win a lot of friends especially in the more price-conscious mid-level market.

S6L and dLive - best in show (consoles) Infocomm  http://www.mixonline.com/news/news-articles/newbay-infocomm-best-show-winners/424846

I had a good time playing with it myself, it's quite a lot of desk for it's price!
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on December 22, 2016, 01:40:40 pm
Ok, so looking into this system more, it seems very impressive.
If I have this right, it can actually do up to 30 stereo mixes and 2 PFL buses?
It seems like if I reduce the mix/group count, I can do more than 2 PFL buses. That would be interesting for personal monitor mix applications if each player could have their own PFL...
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on December 24, 2016, 06:22:00 pm
Anyone know how to get sends-on-fader mode with the director software?
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: richard_cooper on December 24, 2016, 06:32:09 pm
Anyone know how to get sends-on-fader mode with the director software?

Click the Mix button on the channel strip for the bus you want sends on fader for will give you sends on the input strips, or clicking the mix button on an input strip will give you sends for that channel on the output strips. You can also right click the strips in the top part of the screen instead of the mix buttons. Hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on December 25, 2016, 12:55:23 am
Got it. Thanks, Richard!
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Mullane on December 26, 2016, 06:52:47 am
I have now owned a d-live (replaced my Avid Profile) since OCT. 2015 and have spec'd one for several major national tours now. Most folks who have seen me operate on it have commented on the sound of the mix being great and they loved how the board looked/operated.
I even had it at a big festival where there were already three consoles at FOH. I would have used any of them, but given I was touring this band with a show on the d-live and this band was the second headliner, I thought I would throw it in as well. There was a Midas H1000, Midas Pro2 and an Avid Profile at FOH. The d-live was seen as the poor cousin of the bunch, but sonically, it presented one of the best sonic signatures of the day.
The great news is that it has been great on the road in and out of trucks. Never missed a beat. The software updates are very effective and the next one is apparently offering DCA Spill. Cannot wait.
Keep up the great work A&H.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on January 04, 2017, 11:47:41 am
Looks like the 2 big features missing right now are Preview and the ability to run 2 consoles off 1 DM rack with gain sharing/compensation.

I take it the other manufacturers with a "mixer in a rack" like this are much lower-end products like Presonus, Behringer, Yamaha's TF or way higher-end products like LCS. It seems like A&H might be alone in this sector.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Mullane on January 06, 2017, 08:03:40 pm
Looks like the 2 big features missing right now are Preview and the ability to run 2 consoles off 1 DM rack with gain sharing/compensation.

I believe that the gain sharing feature will be released this month as well as DCA spill and other great features. Preview would be also be great.

The CPU in the stage rack has many, many advantages. I am a fan for sure. : )
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: MikeHarris on January 07, 2017, 06:18:49 am
Sorry for this long post...but our clients upgrade path followed budget & technology.
FOH Midas XL8...monitors DSP5D w/ 2x Aviom cards. Goal was give more channels to bands in ears and eventually progress to iPad mixing and wireless in ears for 8 singers..as well as transitioning from KMS105's to wireless. First step was to replace Aviom mixers with A&H ME-1's..still using the 2 universes' from the Yamaha..but soon replaced by a DM64,therefore moving up to 40 channels in each ME-1. While awaiting software updates from A&H the singers moved to ULXD/d:facto. To move them to wireless In ears required outputs to not be local..but in rack room with DM64. 8xPSM900 were integrated while awaiting the multiple-user iPad upgrade...which came online early December for successful Christmas shows.
Final step is to try to eliminate the analog input scheme (DL252>>DM64) so a DN9650 with  Dante card and A&H Dante card (+that $250 adaptor) as a AES50 to Dante conversion..bringing networking to the Midas...delaying it becoming a obsolete boat anchor.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on January 09, 2017, 01:02:44 pm
I see there's now a "C-series". Other than a more compact surface, I'd like to know what the differences are.

http://www.allen-heath.com/dlive-home/
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Don T. Williams on January 09, 2017, 03:51:02 pm
Andrew, according to the Pro Sound News item, dual touch screen 24 fader surface with 64 X 32 mix engine is $21,500.00.  If that's correct, that is a significant price reduction from the current S series surfaces and mix engines.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on January 09, 2017, 03:56:01 pm
Gonna piss off the S series early adopters methinks...
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: richard_cooper on January 09, 2017, 04:07:22 pm
I see there's now a "C-series". Other than a more compact surface, I'd like to know what the differences are.

http://www.allen-heath.com/dlive-home/

On first look, only real differences other than more compact units are a reduction in I/O so "only" one 128x128 slot on surface and racks and only onset of DX expander ports on the mix racks instead of 2. Just noticed, also, they're only single built in PSUs not redundant like the big brother.

I'd hoped there was going to be a replacement of the R72 from the iLive series. Very interesting....
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Don T. Williams on January 09, 2017, 04:40:48 pm
Richard, you are correct.  The PSU's are built in and not hot swappable in the C series surfaces and the CDM series MixRacks.  It's not a replacement for the S series.  The S series is still a heck of a lot of board for the $$$$, and at $21,500.00 list for the C3500 dual touch screen and CDM64 64 X 32 MixRack, this is seriously powerful.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: richard_cooper on January 09, 2017, 04:51:33 pm
Richard, you are correct.  The PSU's are built in and not hot swappable in the C series surfaces and the CDM series MixRacks.  It's not a replacement for the S series.  The S series is still a heck of a lot of board for the $$$$, and at $21,500.00 list for the C3500 dual touch screen and CDM64 64 X 32 MixRack, this is seriously powerful.

And on further examination, I'm slightly wrong on one point, and notice another. There is the same "DX" expander count on the mix racks but they are single link, i.e. not redundant. The same goes for the gigaACE link between the surface and the mix rack. Ultimately then quiet a difference between the original and C series, a lot like the original iLive vs T-series.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 09, 2017, 09:27:48 pm
Andrew, according to the Pro Sound News item, dual touch screen 24 fader surface with 64 X 32 mix engine is $21,500.00.  If that's correct, that is a significant price reduction from the current S series surfaces and mix engines.


Between that and an Digico SD-9 these are two super solid choices in that market space.  To me both are a big step up from the Yamaha and Midas offerings at that price point.

Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Jeff Simpson on January 10, 2017, 04:14:42 am
... surface with 64 X 32 mix engine ...

As a point of clarification, the engine is always 128 x 64; it's the amount of IO that varies with each rack (i.e. 64 x 32, 48 x 24, etc).
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Don T. Williams on January 10, 2017, 11:51:58 am
Jeff, thanks for the clarification.  Again just another point about how powerful this platform is, how much of a value it is, and how digital mixing has progressed.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Mullane on January 11, 2017, 06:02:28 pm
It would have been nice to see the PSU still field swappable. Non redundant makes sense for price point, but the use of the same PSU's would have been a smarter move as production houses who own d-live could own spare PSU's and at least field swap them. That is pretty disappointing, although the rest of the feature set seems pretty well thought out for the price. I already know some folks who are buying the DM rack and the c-series surface. Saving some coin that way, while keeping up some level of redundancy for the brain.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on January 11, 2017, 11:00:59 pm
It wold have been nice to see the PSU still field swappable. Non redundant makes sense for price point, but the use of the same PSU's would have been a smarter move as production houses who own d-live could own spare PSU's and at least field swap them. That is pretty disappointing, although the rest of the feature set seems pretty well thought out for the price. I already know some folks who are buying the DM rack and the c-series surface. Saving some coin that way, while keeping up some level of redundancy for the brain.
The only PSUs I've ever seen fail in all my years of Pro audio (which are considerable) are the huge PSUs used by the big analog consoles, chinese wall-warts, and computer power supplies.
I've never seen a power supply fail in a digital console, but still people send them out with redundant supplies. (and often without UPSs surprisingly!)

Almost everything else in the rigs fail more often and should have redundancy before worrying about a modern, quality switching power supply. Really, the consoles themselves crash or fail more often than their power supplies do.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on January 11, 2017, 11:50:34 pm
The only PSUs I've ever seen fail in all my years of Pro audio (which are considerable) are the huge PSUs used by the big analog consoles, chinese wall-warts, and computer power supplies.
I've never seen a power supply fail in a digital console, but still people send them out with redundant supplies. (and often without UPSs surprisingly!)

Almost everything else in the rigs fail more often and should have redundancy before worrying about a modern, quality switching power supply. Really, the consoles themselves crash or fail more often than their power supplies do.

I wish I could say the same thing. We had a digital console that has dual power supplies and one of them died and it loaded down the other supply and shut down the console. One supply was on the UPS and the other one was on direct power. And this console had to be disassembled to get at the power supplies. We changed the bad one out and everything was good again. This was an Avid SC48 installed in a church.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on January 12, 2017, 01:37:23 am
This was an Avid SC48
Ah. I guess I've been lucky enough to not have to use one of those more than a couple of times. If any digital console was predicted to have a crappy PSU it would be that one.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Helmke on January 12, 2017, 10:06:59 am
I wish I could say the same thing. We had a digital console that has dual power supplies and one of them died and it loaded down the other supply and shut down the console. One supply was on the UPS and the other one was on direct power. And this console had to be disassembled to get at the power supplies. We changed the bad one out and everything was good again. This was an Avid SC48 installed in a church.

The Avid consoles tell you when one of the power supplies is not working, which invalidates the following story. But still worth considering.

There was a bit of conventional wisdom back in the day about how when a big Midas console had a power supply failure it would take out the other power supply in the process.  The real story was the most people just hooked up both PSU's and never checked them individually, and what usually happened is that one PSU would fail but not be noticed until months later when the second one failed.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Mullane on January 14, 2017, 09:54:33 pm
The only PSUs I've ever seen fail in all my years of Pro audio (which are considerable) are the huge PSUs used by the big analog consoles, chinese wall-warts, and computer power supplies.
I've never seen a power supply fail in a digital console, but still people send them out with redundant supplies. (and often without UPSs surprisingly!)

Almost everything else in the rigs fail more often and should have redundancy before worrying about a modern, quality switching power supply. Really, the consoles themselves crash or fail more often than their power supplies do.

I agree in general. The number of Midas XL200,250,4 power supplies I have seen fail are considerable. However, I have had an i-live power supply fail. Not in a show, but an install. It can and does happen.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Nathan Riddle on November 29, 2017, 09:56:45 am
I've read all the dLive threads and this one seems most appropriate.

I recently had a short discussion about dLive's sound quality.

I'm curious as to what others here think about it (both the board and the conversation)?

I realize there's plenty of subjective opinions on sound quality, and hundreds/thousands of things that could have affected his perceptions besides just the board. But are there others on here that don't like dLive?

[Prompt: DiGiCo or dLive][In a HOW FB page]

Quote
Quote
Jonathan Lieurance 2 November 27 at 8:07pm:
I would take DiGiCo. The dLive sounds terrible and is convoluted and slow to work on. The DiGiCo sounds great and is laid out like a console. The work flow is clear and makes sense. The expand ability is tremendous and integration with other DiGiCo consoles is great. I know we have a lot of A&H lovers on here, and I loved my GL3000. It was a work horse for years. But after mixing on a variety of the new ones, I just don’t get the attraction.

Quote
Nathan Riddle  November 27 at 8:12pm:
Sounds terrible? Do explain.

Quote
Jonathan Lieurance November 27 at 8:32pm
To me it sounded muffled and thin at the same time. The high end articulation was disjointed as if phase shifts were happening, which caused the imaging of a stereo pair to be nearly imperceivable, all muddled together. The low end response was slow and flappy and suffered some of the same perils of the high end disjointedness. It was like eating bad BBQ, no matter how much sauce I put on, it was still dry and tasteless. And what is up with the blue light special buttons??! Who makes a console where you don’t send the aux from the channel? In all fairness, I loved the copy/paste functions. So there is that.

Quote
Nathan Riddle November 27 at 8:40pm:
Hmm, interesting experience. You sure it was the dLive board and not something else? Many, many experts (<-wrong word, professionals*) are saying it is the best sounding board out today.

Quote
Jonathan Lieurance November 27 at 8:46pm:
It’s always possible that something was amuck when I used it on a show...but We were using a Martin MLA rig that I use all the time and am very familiar with how it responds. The only variable was the console. I would question the “experts”, especially if they are integrators with good margins on the console sales.

Quote
Nathan Riddle November 27 at 8:51pm:
Agreed in general with your statement about sales; but the dLive has terrible margins for integrators so that is unlikely what is happening. Anyways, not here to question your experience. Just curious as to your thoughts as you're the first I've heard say it sounded "terrible" or even bad.

Quote
Jonathan Lieurance November 27 at 8:57pm:
Nathan Riddle I am definitely not alone in my opinion. Just not in this group. Haha.

Quote
Jim Slone Yesterday at 7:25am:
I haven’t heard anyone say that it’s the best sounding desk out today. Anyone. Remember that you are going to get a lot of bypassed feedback from people on a FB group where that may be the only desk they’ve ever mixed on. So to them, it may very well be the best one out today, but to others that have experience and time on other desks, their opinions may be very different.

Quote
Nathan Riddle 13 hrs:
Yeah I don't use Facebook as a significant source of info. Mainly to help people and gauge a community.

Quote
Benjamin Joyner 13 hrs Jim Slone:
I’ve owned SD10, SD11, and dLive. They all sound spectacular. I’m curious about your experience with the dLive and what the deal was. Sounds like something was off. FWIW, the dLive is awesome especially if one is working with volunteers. No bash on Digico, but the dLive is a killer beast.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 29, 2017, 10:16:10 am
I've read all the dLive threads and this one seems most appropriate.

I recently had a short discussion about dLive's sound quality.

I'm curious as to what others here think about it (both the board and the conversation)?

I realize there's plenty of subjective opinions on sound quality, and hundreds/thousands of things that could have affected his perceptions besides just the board. But are there others on here that don't like dLive?

[Prompt: DiGiCo or dLive][In a HOW FB page]

Some guys breath different air than we do, too...
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 29, 2017, 04:06:16 pm
The only good sound you'll hear is the one you "see" the most. Put it all behind a curtain and most people will recognize "good" sound when they hear it. Unfortunately, many people don't know "bad" sound when they hear it.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on November 29, 2017, 04:13:47 pm
I've read all the dLive threads and this one seems most appropriate.

I recently had a short discussion about dLive's sound quality.

I'm curious as to what others here think about it (both the board and the conversation)?

I realize there's plenty of subjective opinions on sound quality, and hundreds/thousands of things that could have affected his perceptions besides just the board. But are there others on here that don't like dLive?

[Prompt: DiGiCo or dLive][In a HOW FB page]

Guy is talking out of his ass. We demo'ed both a C3500 and an SD9 within a short time span, we went with the SD9 in the end but that had absolutely nothing to do with sound quality.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 29, 2017, 04:31:53 pm
Guy is talking out of his ass. We demo'ed both a C3500 and an SD9 within a short time span, we went with the SD9 in the end but that had absolutely nothing to do with sound quality.

Spenser can you share some of those reasons?  Did you by the tour pack of the SD-9? 

The SD-9 is getting up there in console age and the dLive is a new design.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: John Fruits on November 29, 2017, 04:33:03 pm
Some guys breath different air than we do, too...

Some of them are fart smellers......Oops, I meant smart fellers.  Dang those spoonerisms.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 29, 2017, 05:56:14 pm
To fulfill JR's comment about posters telling what they know rather than answering the question...

Executive Summary - Everyone has an opinion and everyone has digestive gases.  Everyone has a preferred mixing console for whatever reasons he/she can rationalize or afford or specify on a rider.  The Real Mixerpersons® can deliver a sonically similar show every night regardless of Brand Name so long as the desks have similar capabilities.  Bad carpenters blame their tools, too.

Full Disclosure - I've not mixed a show on the new Allen-Heath mixers (haven't seen one "in the wild", either) but didn't really find anything sonically objectionable - for their place in the market - with the earlier consoles and doubt they got worse instead of better; I've mixed 1 show on an SD series and it's less confusing than the Midas UI I so thoroughly deplore, but I didn't hear anything that made me want to cut a purchase order, either.

I think some Mixerpersons are different than the rest of us - different, like a neurotic guitarist - and they really do breath different air from the rest of we mere mortals.  Some of them turn out exquisite mixes and tend to fully utilize (or not) the facilities of their preferred console; others turn out shit mixes and tend to fully utilize the facilities of their preferred console.  /sigh

I had 2 Mixerpersons on consecutive dates in the same arena... one of them called Avid S6L "absolute crap" but the other guy praised it as "in the top 3 mixers" and we were discussing sound quality, not ergonomics or configuration hassles or UI.  Neither was mixing their show on an S6L but they had strong opinions anyway.

Anecdote:  About 10 years ago we had a show with 3 artists, 2 of whom were carrying digital mixers.  The act without a desk had a BE that had never operated a Yammy M7 (or any other digital mixer) and that was our desk for support...  I helped him with sound check and assisted in navigating to things he wanted to change.  I was close by at showtime, too, and helped with UI things but left him to his work.  The other BEs were a bit condescending of this fellow but had no place; he easily had the best sound from the PA that night, mixing on a desk he'd never touched before.

Commercial perspective - We're more likely to buy either the console that can become a frequent line item on the invoice; or the console that represents the lowest cost that meets the technical requirements of the shows we do that will be accepted at least 80% of the time (and that can't be a separate, billable item).
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Jeff Lelko on November 29, 2017, 06:15:50 pm
Nathan, I'm still very much interested in this product too, and I'm scheduling a demo with a dealer (who also is a member here) just after the New Year.  The C3500, C1500, and IP8 with a CDM32 will be what I'm looking at, and if you don't mind driving a few hours south I'm sure you'd be welcome to tag along if you'd like to see/touch/hear one for yourself!
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 29, 2017, 07:29:34 pm
To fulfill JR's comment about posters telling what they know rather than answering the question...

Executive Summary - Everyone has an opinion and everyone has digestive gases.  Everyone has a preferred mixing console for whatever reasons he/she can rationalize or afford or specify on a rider.  The Real Mixerpersons® can deliver a sonically similar show every night regardless of Brand Name so long as the desks have similar capabilities.  Bad carpenters blame their tools, too.

Full Disclosure - I've not mixed a show on the new Allen-Heath mixers (haven't seen one "in the wild", either) but didn't really find anything sonically objectionable - for their place in the market - with the earlier consoles and doubt they got worse instead of better; I've mixed 1 show on an SD series and it's less confusing than the Midas UI I so thoroughly deplore, but I didn't hear anything that made me want to cut a purchase order, either.

I think some Mixerpersons are different than the rest of us - different, like a neurotic guitarist - and they really do breath different air from the rest of we mere mortals.  Some of them turn out exquisite mixes and tend to fully utilize (or not) the facilities of their preferred console; others turn out shit mixes and tend to fully utilize the facilities of their preferred console.  /sigh

I had 2 Mixerpersons on consecutive dates in the same arena... one of them called Avid S6L "absolute crap" but the other guy praised it as "in the top 3 mixers" and we were discussing sound quality, not ergonomics or configuration hassles or UI.  Neither was mixing their show on an S6L but they had strong opinions anyway.

Anecdote:  About 10 years ago we had a show with 3 artists, 2 of whom were carrying digital mixers.  The act without a desk had a BE that had never operated a Yammy M7 (or any other digital mixer) and that was our desk for support...  I helped him with sound check and assisted in navigating to things he wanted to change.  I was close by at showtime, too, and helped with UI things but left him to his work.  The other BEs were a bit condescending of this fellow but had no place; he easily had the best sound from the PA that night, mixing on a desk he'd never touched before.

Commercial perspective - We're more likely to buy either the console that can become a frequent line item on the invoice; or the console that represents the lowest cost that meets the technical requirements of the shows we do that will be accepted at least 80% of the time (and that can't be a separate, billable item).

Yes, and it's also my opinion as I don't romanticize hardware either, however I think the SD-9 is an easier sell than the dLive, however it's a much older design.  Will the value prop change before the payments are all made?

When we are in charge of the production the M32 is an easy sell.  When I am just supplying the PA it's another line item.  Right now I am just gathering data, however after a season of cross renting I will know what the right decision will be.

Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Dave Pluke on November 29, 2017, 08:37:20 pm
Yes, and it's also my opinion as I don't romanticize hardware either, however I think the SD-9 is an easier sell than the dLive, however it's a much older design.  Will the value prop change before the payments are all made?

It is an older design, BUT, version 2 of Stealth Core software breathes new life into the SD9.

http://www.digico.biz/docs/latest_news/EuVylkFVyZzZsmRPHl.shtml

Whether or not that tips the scales, it is refreshing to see manufacturers who continue to release upgrades for older digital consoles.

Dave
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on November 30, 2017, 02:51:55 am
Jonathan Lieurance 2 November 27 at 8:07pm:
I would take DiGiCo. The dLive sounds terrible and is convoluted and slow to work on. The DiGiCo sounds great and is laid out like a console. The work flow is clear and makes sense. The expand ability is tremendous and integration with other DiGiCo consoles is great. I know we have a lot of A&H lovers on here, and I loved my GL3000. It was a work horse for years. But after mixing on a variety of the new ones, I just don’t get the attraction.

Jonathan Lieurance November 27 at 8:32pm
To me it sounded muffled and thin at the same time. The high end articulation was disjointed as if phase shifts were happening, which caused the imaging of a stereo pair to be nearly imperceivable, all muddled together. The low end response was slow and flappy and suffered some of the same perils of the high end disjointedness. It was like eating bad BBQ, no matter how much sauce I put on, it was still dry and tasteless. And what is up with the blue light special buttons??! Who makes a console where you don’t send the aux from the channel? In all fairness, I loved the copy/paste functions. So there is that.


Seriously - what a load of absolute rubbish, the old M7 and LS9 didn't sound so good but everything that has been release over the past few years sounds great, and none of those comments are appropriate for any of them.

I own a dLive and until recently I also owned a Midas Pro2, both sounded superb but I would probably give a slight edge to the dLive for sound quality.

I’m aware of a major firm in the UK that has done some indepth  testing and they came to the conclusion that the dLive was the best sounding console they own … and they have a serious collection of consoles!

Digico, which is part of the same company as A&H have just release this new input card to raise the stakes even higher-provided you have the $$$  - http://www.digico.biz/docs/about/32bit-Mic-Pre-Amp-Card.shtml

In terms of UI the dLive is fantastic, quick and easy to use. The AUX sends can be sent from the channel in almost any way you like - sends on faders or rotaries, and fader flip from the channel or Aux send, you can even program those 6 knobs down side of the screen to be a total 18 aux sends and drive the desk like an old analogue board. 
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on November 30, 2017, 10:30:38 am
Spenser can you share some of those reasons?  Did you by the tour pack of the SD-9? 

The SD-9 is getting up there in console age and the dLive is a new design.

 While both we a joy to mix on, I personally got along better/faster on the Digico. That is a purely subjective point.

 At the time we made the purchase, the DLive was very new and didn't have all the benefits that the last few software updates have added. The original scene management wasn't great, although I have heard that this was improved upon since.

 We found visiting techs to be much more receptive to the SD9, if they have a show file for any of the SD range we can get you up and running quickly on the SD9. We had one tech refuse the DLive while we had the demo unit, luckily we had rented an M32 for monitor duty so we just flipped the consoles and he was happy, this was the ultimate nail in the coffin. (As an aside, the DLive is very intuitive for monitor mixing)

 Our reason for purchasing a console was so that we could stop spending so much money on rental consoles, we looked at our rental expenses over the last 5 years and determined that we could very quickly break even very quickly on that alone. When you factor in the labour, and wear and tear, spent packing up our old house console (Soundcraft GB4-40) several times a week during our busy season, and the subjective value of having industry standard tech, it became a no brainer.

 The Core 2 updates for the SD range put any worries about life span to rest for me, the console was purchased with a planned lifecycle, when that time is up we will be selling it for whatever value it might still have and moving on to something new.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Mullane on December 08, 2017, 03:11:42 am
I've read all the dLive threads and this one seems most appropriate.

Jonathan Lieurance 2 November 27 at 8:07pm:
I would take DiGiCo. The dLive sounds terrible and is convoluted and slow to work on. The DiGiCo sounds great and is laid out like a console. The work flow is clear and makes sense. The expand ability is tremendous and integration with other DiGiCo consoles is great. I know we have a lot of A&H lovers on here, and I loved my GL3000. It was a work horse for years. But after mixing on a variety of the new ones, I just don’t get the attraction.

Jonathan Lieurance November 27 at 8:32pm
To me it sounded muffled and thin at the same time. The high end articulation was disjointed as if phase shifts were happening, which caused the imaging of a stereo pair to be nearly imperceivable, all muddled together. The low end response was slow and flappy and suffered some of the same perils of the high end disjointedness. It was like eating bad BBQ, no matter how much sauce I put on, it was still dry and tasteless. And what is up with the blue light special buttons??! Who makes a console where you don’t send the aux from the channel? In all fairness, I loved the copy/paste functions. So there is that.


I am sorry Nathan Riddle, but if you really think that this guys remarks are more appropriate then you really have not given D-live a chance. I am in the fortunate position to be the person writing the riders for the acts I tour with and the production supplier gives me the board I want. I am not fussy and can mix on most modern digital boards without feeling too limited. I still work regularly on Avid boards and Digico's from SD7 through to SD11 depending on the situation and I am very familiar with them and can set them up myself happily. I am here to tell you that D-live sounds better and is far easier too use. Period! I spec it exclusively now and always get many positive comments about how an in house rig has never sounded as good. I spec it because it sounds better and is easier to use. My experiences are polar opposite to Jonathan and I find it warm and precise with very fast transients and a tight low end. I often find myself with no house EQ on my Adamson S10 rig.
Adlib Productions in the UK has most major boards and just purchased D-live and they not only thought that it sounded better, but their tech dept. ran tests and proved it on the bench as well. See below is a statement from their tech., George Puttock.

"You will be pleased to know that these are literally the cleanest digital boards we own. We stuck it on our posh Audio Precision testgear and found that both the IMD, THD, THD+n and 1/f noise to be far far far lower than any console (or processor) we own. The THD and IMD we measured actually whooped the published specs, even when 1dB below clip, AT ALL FREQUENCIES!
Most manufacturers quote their THD spec at 1k or another spot frequency. You measure them and find them to conform to the specs, but when you look at other spot frequencies, the THD is though the roof. Not the dLive, which now supersedes all of our existing gubbins and now becomes our quality benchmark in Adlib, even surpassing Lake! (Which has bloody awesome specs for the record)...
Don't think I even need to mention how the latency is even faster both synchro and async than virtually every other digital console on the planet.

So all in all, A&H have made a massive leap forward in tech, & other manufacturers should take heed!"

Peter Morris owned a Pro2 and sold it in favour of a D-Live. Here are three real world examples of serious people using serious gear who have nothing but glowing reviews. I am fine with Jonathan Lieurance not liking the board as a matter of preference, but his isolated experience speaks of either something wrong with the system or simply he had a bad day and D-live is not his preference....and that is fine, but do not take a statement like that as gospel. Spend time with it yourself to make your own mind up.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 08, 2017, 04:25:12 am

Peter Morris owned a Pro2 and sold it in favour of a D-Live. Here are three real world examples of serious people using serious gear who have nothing but glowing reviews. I am fine with Jonathan Lieurance not liking the board as a matter of preference, but his isolated experience speaks of either something wrong with the system or simply he had a bad day and D-live is not his preference....and that is fine, but do not take a statement like that as gospel. Spend time with it yourself to make your own mind up.

Who is Jonathan Lieurance and why does his opinion matter?
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Mullane on December 08, 2017, 05:52:00 am
Who is Jonathan Lieurance and why does his opinion matter?

I do not know who he is, but it is the person who's opinions Nathan refers to in his post on page 7 of this thread.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Nathan Riddle on December 08, 2017, 08:23:42 am
Who is Jonathan Lieurance and why does his opinion matter?
I do not know who he is, but it is the person who's opinions Nathan refers to in his post on page 7 of this thread.

I think Tim's post is tongue in cheek.  ::)

I've read all the dLive threads and this one seems most appropriate.
I am sorry Nathan Riddle, but if you really think that this guys remarks are more appropriate then you really have not given D-live a chance.

Spend time with it yourself to make your own mind up.

"Appropriate" meaning instead of starting a new thread and of the other dLive threads; this one seemed the best to post in.
Not appropriate meaning Jonathan Lieurance's opinions have any weight or mean anything at all.

Try re-reading my statements and own replies in the discussion I quoted from Space Face (Tim's eloquence is amazing).

And I believe Jeff Lelko's thread is the one I posted in extensively about dLive. To re-iterate, In general I have played/mixed on it @ Infocomm; and I felt it was a much better board than all the others I played/mixed on that day/week. I thought the ease of use & ergonomics was blowing every other board out of the water. As far as sound quality is concerned, these forums have taught me that it is the audio mixer not the equipment... thought equipment can have extra technical abilities or 'plugins' (for lack of better word) that can tailor the sound to be more pleasing; but in general it is the person using the gear that matters most not the gear itself.

At the end of the day, If I had the money I'd buy dLive right now. It's still the best board (for me). Alas, I'll be dreaming about it and hope SQ gets some of dLive's plugins/FX engines :)

Nathan, I'm still very much interested in this product too, and I'm scheduling a demo with a dealer (who also is a member here) just after the New Year.  The C3500, C1500, and IP8 with a CDM32 will be what I'm looking at, and if you don't mind driving a few hours south I'm sure you'd be welcome to tag along if you'd like to see/touch/hear one for yourself!

Hey Jeff, sorry I forgot to respond!

Absolutely! You're a good day's drive away (8hrs), but I might have my SQ6 by then (supposedly 1st week Jan) and we could all have a good fun day. Maybe Art would come by as well and we could have a PSW get-together :)

Let me know when you're going to do the demo!
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Scott Mullane on December 08, 2017, 03:25:49 pm
"Appropriate" meaning instead of starting a new thread and of the other dLive threads; this one seemed the best to post in.

Ah! Apologies for misinterpreting your post. Hope that you enjoy your coming SQ.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Nathan Riddle on December 08, 2017, 03:34:44 pm
Ah! Apologies for misinterpreting your post. Hope that you enjoy your coming SQ.

No worries! I rather enjoyed your descriptions of use and the technical bench testing; I'd love to see a report/blog post if they did one!
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 08, 2017, 06:00:04 pm
Hey Jeff, sorry I forgot to respond!

Absolutely! You're a good day's drive away (8hrs), but I might have my SQ6 by then (supposedly 1st week Jan) and we could all have a good fun day. Maybe Art would come by as well and we could have a PSW get-together :)

Let me know when you're going to do the demo!

No worries!  I'll PM you the details as they come available and we'll go from there!
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Peter Morris on December 09, 2017, 01:38:30 am

Adlib Productions in the UK has most major boards and just purchased D-live and they not only thought that it sounded better, but their tech dept. ran tests and proved it on the bench as well. See below is a statement from their tech., George Puttock.

"You will be pleased to know that these are literally the cleanest digital boards we own. We stuck it on our posh Audio Precision testgear and found that both the IMD, THD, THD+n and 1/f noise to be far far far lower than any console (or processor) we own. The THD and IMD we measured actually whooped the published specs, even when 1dB below clip, AT ALL FREQUENCIES!
Most manufacturers quote their THD spec at 1k or another spot frequency. You measure them and find them to conform to the specs, but when you look at other spot frequencies, the THD is though the roof. Not the dLive, which now supersedes all of our existing gubbins and now becomes our quality benchmark in Adlib, even surpassing Lake! (Which has bloody awesome specs for the record)...
Don't think I even need to mention how the latency is even faster both synchro and async than virtually every other digital console on the planet.


"I’m aware of a major firm in the UK that has done some in depth testing and they came to the conclusion that the dLive was the best sounding console they own … and they have a serious collection of consoles!"

That's the company and statement I was referring to in my above post Scott ... thanks for posting it :-)
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on June 16, 2018, 10:43:36 pm
Ok, maybe you guys that have the dLive system can answer this. I can't seem to get any answers on the A&H forum, unfortunately!

I'm very interested in having each musician use their own iPad using OneMix to control their own IEM mix. Many pro musicians I work with (and Directors, Backline techs, etc.) would like to be able to also PFL channels into their mix. I've heard the ME-1 can do this, but I don't think OneMix can do this natively. So... I'm wondering if there's a workaround...
1. Can each musician have their own PAFL bus? I’d heard you can have multiple PAFL buses on the dLive…
2. Can each musician solo their channels in OneMix and have it show up on their dedicated PAFL bus? It seems like OneMix doesn't have a PAFL function?
2. I know with the latest firmware (1.70), you can route mixes into a PAFL bus. Can it route to ANY of the PAFL buses if you have one for each musician?
3. Is there a way that the mix that’s routed into the musician’s PAFL bus can be made to mute when they solo a channel?

Any thoughts on how to be able to give each musician their own PAFL bus that they can control from OneMix?
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Rob Spence on June 17, 2018, 01:02:56 am
How many musicians are you talking about?



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Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on June 17, 2018, 03:19:05 am
How many musicians are you talking about?



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Does that matter? Not sure why you’re asking that.
There’s 64 buses available, so one could have potentially 21 stereo IEM mixes with 22 (mono) PAFL, so 21 musicians each with their own mix and PAFL plus one more for the ME.
Not sure if there’s a limit to the number of OneMix users on a system, all the documentation says is “several” iPads can be connected...


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Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Rob Spence on June 17, 2018, 02:21:04 pm
Does that matter? Not sure why you’re asking that.
There’s 64 buses available, so one could have potentially 21 stereo IEM mixes with 22 (mono) PAFL, so 21 musicians each with their own mix and PAFL plus one more for the ME.
Not sure if there’s a limit to the number of OneMix users on a system, all the documentation says is “several” iPads can be connected...


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The number of simultaneous OneMix connections was why I was curious. I don’t know the dLive but most others seem to have a number of 8 or fewer for individual mixes.


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Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on June 17, 2018, 05:18:57 pm
For the sake of my question, the number of mixes/musicians/PAFL is <= whatever the max possible is on the dLive system.


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Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Hollis on June 17, 2018, 06:57:59 pm
I'm very interested in having each musician use their own iPad using OneMix to control their own IEM mix. Many pro musicians I work with (and Directors, Backline techs, etc.) would like to be able to also PFL channels into their mix. I've heard the ME-1 can do this, but I don't think OneMix can do this natively. So... I'm wondering if there's a workaround...
1. Can each musician have their own PAFL bus? I’d heard you can have multiple PAFL buses on the dLive…
2. Can each musician solo their channels in OneMix and have it show up on their dedicated PAFL bus? It seems like OneMix doesn't have a PAFL function?
2. I know with the latest firmware (1.70), you can route mixes into a PAFL bus. Can it route to ANY of the PAFL buses if you have one for each musician?
3. Is there a way that the mix that’s routed into the musician’s PAFL bus can be made to mute when they solo a channel?

Any thoughts on how to be able to give each musician their own PAFL bus that they can control from OneMix?

No software app-based cue mix system allows for 'artist PFL', on any console. There are a few reasons why when you think about it:
The workaround for an app user is to mute or turn down everything but the thing they are interested in. Or, since all consoles have behaved this way thus far, including in the studio, it doesn't seem like a deal breaker. If it is, one must either alter the users' expectations, or use a hardware mixer.
Title: Re: New Allen & Heath: dLive Series
Post by: Andrew Broughton on June 17, 2018, 07:51:13 pm
Well, just about everything you said is wrong.
Also, if you don’t have a dLive or understand how it works, why are you even commenting?
I’ve no interest in derailing this thread by debating your points, if you’d like to know why you’re wrong, send me a PM or start another thread, please.


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