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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Louis Ismael on April 26, 2015, 12:57:11 am

Title: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Louis Ismael on April 26, 2015, 12:57:11 am
Many rumors about TC group being sold... Is it Yamaha who has bought them? I hear its 170 million. Anyone know more?



edit very misleading title
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 26, 2015, 01:11:54 am
Many rumors about TC group being sold... Is it Yamaha who has bought them? I hear its 170 million. Anyone know more?

The other rumour is TC will be part of MG.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on April 26, 2015, 04:05:48 am
I sure hope it's Yamaha and not MG.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 26, 2015, 06:05:59 am
If you think of the price as a risk-adjusted and interest-rate discounted sum of future profits, 170 sounds like a lot to pay.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 26, 2015, 06:07:07 am
I had heard it may be MG as well. Another product line to cross off of my list if that happens.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Steve Payne on April 26, 2015, 08:40:18 am
Many rumors about TC group being sold... Is it Yamaha who has bought them? I hear its 170 million. Anyone know more?

I know, but I can't say.  It is NOT Yamaha and I am NOT happy.  You figure it out from there.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Thomas Le on April 26, 2015, 11:19:25 am
I know this is wishful thinking but Lake and Lab Gruppens on ebay for cheap when this happens? Oh when pigs fly...
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Steve Payne on April 26, 2015, 07:03:33 pm
I know this is wishful thinking but Lake and Lab Gruppens on ebay for cheap when this happens? Oh when pigs fly...

You won't have to go to eBay to get Lake and Labs for cheap.  Should take about 12/24 months. You'd think I'd be used to it by now, but it sucks just as bad every time.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Louis Ismael on April 26, 2015, 07:33:17 pm
You won't have to go to eBay to get Lake and Labs for cheap.  Should take about 12/24 months. You'd think I'd be used to it by now, but it sucks just as bad every time.

I really don't understand these negative comment and emotion.  when MG bought Midas they invested a lot and hire 100 people in engineering... before Midas was almost bankruped and look now is doing very well.  nothing is cheap and the products are very good and on many rider. I know some engineer in UK and they are very happy how the company invest and how brand is doing.
if MG buy TC as you say, they will also invest with many engineer and this would be very good for TC brands. 
Uli understand well that premium brands are different and he does good job to move MG into professional av. And if you dont like buy other brand.. simple.
When Yamaha bought Nexo the brand was very popular but they did not invest... now Nexo has lost to l'acoustic and d&b etc. 
   
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 26, 2015, 07:57:50 pm
I really don't understand these negative comment and emotion.  when MG bought Midas they invested a lot and hire 100 people in engineering... before Midas was almost bankruped and look now is doing very well.  nothing is cheap and the products are very good and on many rider. I know some engineer in UK and they are very happy how the company invest and how brand is doing.
if MG buy TC as you say, they will also invest with many engineer and this would be very good for TC brands. 
Uli understand well that premium brands are different and he does good job to move MG into professional av. And if you dont like buy other brand.. simple.
When Yamaha bought Nexo the brand was very popular but they did not invest... now Nexo has lost to l'acoustic and d&b etc. 
   

[satire] Gee, thanks for explaining that to us.  :o [/satire]

To quote Sonny and Cher.... "The beat goes on..."

JR
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Louis Ismael on April 26, 2015, 08:21:51 pm
Sorry JR just my opinion and i dont work for MG... but i really dont understand this emotion here.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Mac Kerr on April 26, 2015, 08:25:04 pm
Sorry JR just my opinion and i dont work for MG... but i really dont understand this emotion here.

You haven't been around long enough. The relevant discussion was 10 years ago.

Mac
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 26, 2015, 08:32:00 pm
Sorry JR just my opinion and i dont work for MG... but i really dont understand this emotion here.
You haven't been around long enough. The relevant discussion was 10 years ago.

Mac

Mac...

"Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it."

Edmund Burke
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 26, 2015, 10:31:31 pm
Sorry JR just my opinion and i dont work for MG...
I didn't say or suggest that you did... (do people think that?)
Quote
but i really dont understand this emotion here.
I do understand it but do not feel like yet another sharing session. 

For some of us here this is about decades of personal experience competing in this industry... We've all heard that top ten list of talking points. So please don't waste our time (in a thread about a new yamaha product).

If you actually don't understand, keep asking and you will attract a few people willing to tell you what and why they think that way. I suspect most professionals like me are weary of this tired dance.

JR

 
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Steve Payne on April 26, 2015, 10:39:47 pm
Sorry JR just my opinion and i dont work for MG... but i really dont understand this emotion here.

Louis, with no offense intended, you don't have a clue.  You are witnessing the death of iconic professional brands and the culture that nurtured them.  It is what it is.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Mikael Holm on April 26, 2015, 10:54:34 pm
Louis, with no offense intended, you don't have a clue.  You are witnessing the death of iconic professional brands and the culture that nurtured them.  It is what it is.

Amen.

Turbosound has slowly been disappearing from riders and digital Midas consoles never made it there as well as the old analog models. Klark Teknik seems to only offer products that glue Midas products to other digital infrastructure.

TC has already lost its core customers that made the company shine. The last interesting products - considering sound reinforcement - are EQStation (discontinued a few years ago), Reverb 4000 and System 6000. They all are more than ten years old products.

Lab.gruppen is doing fine but would it be the same without Lake?

Am i on the right track?
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Geri O'Neil on April 27, 2015, 12:07:49 am
I'm confused about a couple of thing...

I thought that TC was only a distributor of Lab Gruppen in the USA.

If TC is bought by anyone, does that "anyone" acquire Lab Gruppen as part of the deal?
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Peter Morris on April 27, 2015, 12:22:52 am
I'm confused about a couple of thing...

I thought that TC was only a distributor of Lab Gruppen in the USA.

If TC is bought by anyone, does that "anyone" acquire Lab Gruppen as part of the deal?

As I understand its the whole group - TC Electronics, Lab Gruppen, Lake, Tannoy etc.

http://www.proaudio-central.com/articles/pro-audio-asia/TC-Group-to-be-sold-in-its-entirety
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Steve Payne on April 27, 2015, 01:33:22 am
As I understand its the whole group - TC Electronics, Lab Gruppen, Lake, Tannoy etc.

http://www.proaudio-central.com/articles/pro-audio-asia/TC-Group-to-be-sold-in-its-entirety

That is correct, Peter. 
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Jim McKeveny on April 27, 2015, 10:51:51 am
MG TC?

I thought I was on Hemmings!
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 27, 2015, 11:19:21 am
I, for one, welcome our new audio overlords.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Peter Morris on April 27, 2015, 08:45:22 pm
Louis, with no offense intended, you don't have a clue.  You are witnessing the death of iconic professional brands and the culture that nurtured them.  It is what it is.

Yeah ... and FWIW I just hope they will put some of those lovely TC reverbs and effects in my Midas Pro consoles.

Uli now has all the ducks lined up. There are significant synergies with the companies he has purchased. He now owns a bunch of iconic pro audio brands covering every aspect – mixers, amplifiers, speakers and processors.

I just hope he understands the passion and respected he needs to show for these companies and their customs.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 27, 2015, 09:23:56 pm
I, for one, welcome our new audio overlords.

Just about choked to death as I read this while eating  ;)
Great quote for this topic!!!!

Lee
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 27, 2015, 10:16:23 pm
Well now. I have trusted TC, Lab, etc., just as I trusted Midas in the past. So the glory days are gone, bragging rights cease to exist, and Uli will score another win for his team. I'll shy away from anything remotely connected to MG and watch as they try to satisfy everyone who owns their product by offering overnight repair from their only repair center in the USA, at least for the first two years anyway. Then I'll shake my head as people explain away their trust in lower quality components installed by people who work for a bowl of rice.

All right then, so there's no stopping the train, but just like Disney World, the price will go up and eventually you'll decide the rides haven't really changed all that much. The Behringer ride will always be the Behringer ride. Wonder what an "Ultra Gruppen 6000" will look like.

So now I'll list a very old and sought after TC chorus pedal that is no longer in production on Ebay, and hope to make a killing before it's cloned and being sold for $49.95 to people who think the new model will be "identical" to one that's 30 years old, and built with quality components by people who care. RIP TC, you served me well.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on April 27, 2015, 10:28:59 pm
Holy hyperbole batman!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 27, 2015, 11:06:15 pm
Holy hyperbole batman!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't see any real hyperbole in Bob's post. 
Perhaps you could explain what parts of the post are actually hyperbolic.

Lee
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Scott Wagner on April 28, 2015, 12:06:04 pm
I don't see any real hyperbole in Bob's post. 
Perhaps you could explain what parts of the post are actually hyperbolic.
I would say that Bob has valid (although somewhat dramatically stated) concerns. I, like many others, have held a long-term dislike for all things Behringer - built upon experience. That said, I purchased an X32 when they were released and an X32Compact not long after with the thought that the most I could lose was the purchase price. It's now been almost 3 years with no failures. I'm quite happy with the X32 line in sound quality, flexibility, ROI, and surprisingly reliability. I am, however, looking forward to replacing the X32 with an M32 in the near future. I don't expect much, if any, improvement sonically, but the added piece of mind of more robust moving parts (faders, encoders, and buttons) is worth the price premium to me. Having the Midas brand on the case certainly won't hurt my business, either.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 28, 2015, 12:45:15 pm
I would say that Bob has valid (although somewhat dramatically stated) concerns. I, like many others, have held a long-term dislike for all things Behringer - built upon experience. That said, I purchased an X32 when they were released and an X32Compact not long after with the thought that the most I could lose was the purchase price. It's now been almost 3 years with no failures. I'm quite happy with the X32 line in sound quality, flexibility, ROI, and surprisingly reliability. I am, however, looking forward to replacing the X32 with an M32 in the near future. I don't expect much, if any, improvement sonically, but the added piece of mind of more robust moving parts (faders, encoders, and buttons) is worth the price premium to me. Having the Midas brand on the case certainly won't hurt my business, either.

The quality issue is separate from the ethics issue.

Lee
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 28, 2015, 01:09:14 pm
Uli has moved up from cloning to owning.

Now to find a 2290 before they hit the ceiling.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Steve Cook on April 28, 2015, 07:14:21 pm
Uli has moved up from cloning to owning.

Now to find a 2290 before they hit the ceiling.

Too true.  I'm a proud non-MG sound company. 
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: John Chiara on April 28, 2015, 09:29:14 pm
I don't see any real hyperbole in Bob's post. 
Perhaps you could explain what parts of the post are actually hyperbolic.

Lee

From what I know, no one is working for a bowl of rice. Chinese labor costs have increased and Uli has learned how to manufacture in that environment, with years of experience of what not to do.
Does the German Gov't hate Uli for moving offshore years ago? Not sure what the tax situation is.
I for one, paid all kind of dues, and have a warehouse full of old American made gear that isn't worth crap. That said, I mix almost every show I do on my iPad-X32 combo and could NOT WORK without that price point/feature set. I guess that makes me an experienced unethical bottom feeder!😇
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on April 28, 2015, 10:08:40 pm
Too true.  I'm a proud non-MG sound company.

Maybe someone will create a "I'm a proud non-MG sound company" stamp to put on all the quotes you send out.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 28, 2015, 10:50:57 pm
From what I know, no one is working for a bowl of rice. Chinese labor costs have increased and Uli has learned how to manufacture in that environment, with years of experience of what not to do.
Does the German Gov't hate Uli for moving offshore years ago? Not sure what the tax situation is.
I for one, paid all kind of dues, and have a warehouse full of old American made gear that isn't worth crap. That said, I mix almost every show I do on my iPad-X32 combo and could NOT WORK without that price point/feature set. I guess that makes me an experienced unethical bottom feeder!😇

No one that I saw mentioned tax situations, moving offshore, etc. as regards the issues they have with Behringer.  Also, I didn't see anyone question the ethics of individuals here on PSW, only those of Behringer. 
When you build a business by copying the intellectual property and the designs of others and then try to go legit by buying respected businesses there will be people who remember who you really are, at least for awhile, and choose not only to not do business with you but also to tell others about who you really are. 

Lee



Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on April 28, 2015, 11:18:25 pm
No one that I saw mentioned tax situations, moving offshore, etc. as regards the issues they have with Behringer.  Also, I didn't see anyone question the ethics of individuals here on PSW, only those of Behringer. 
When you build a business by copying the intellectual property and the designs of others (and you are barred from selling those products in some countries because of this) and then try to go legit by buying respected businesses there will be people who remember who you really are, at least for awhile, and choose not only to not do business with you but also to tell others about who you really are. 

Lee

(http://visualneo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/dead-horse.jpg)
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Tim Halligan on April 28, 2015, 11:53:20 pm
Does anybody else remember when Harmon were the bad guys?

Like MG, they bought up many companies in an effort to vertically integrate...and killed some of those acquisitions along the way...

Remember AMEK/TAC?

Cheers,
Tim
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 28, 2015, 11:56:14 pm
Does anybody else remember when Harmon were the bad guys?

Like MG, they bought up many companies in an effort to vertically integrate...and killed some of those acquisitions along the way...

Remember AMEK/TAC?

Cheers,
Tim

It was a mercy killing...
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: John Chiara on April 29, 2015, 12:45:12 am
No one that I saw mentioned tax situations, moving offshore, etc. as regards the issues they have with Behringer.  Also, I didn't see anyone question the ethics of individuals here on PSW, only those of Behringer. 
When you build a business by copying the intellectual property and the designs of others (and you are barred from selling those products in some countries because of this) and then try to go legit by buying respected businesses there will be people who remember who you really are, at least for awhile, and choose not only to not do business with you but also to tell others about who you really are. 


I was mentioning taxes as a part of the context that results in companies moving operations off shore. Many U.S. Companies...for example...are buying Canadian companies for the tax advantages. Someone mentioned Chinese manufacturing as a red flag by which to consider a companies products, and many more companies are moving manufacturing overseas..and it seems that MG has a better handle on that than most. I understand the problems many of us have with Behringer's history....just not sure it is a current concern in today's market. We can all choose for ourselves.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 29, 2015, 02:12:24 am
Because the first mass produced car was made by Ford, all cars should continue to be made by Ford.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Uli Behringer on April 29, 2015, 02:44:51 am
No one that I saw mentioned tax situations, moving offshore, etc. as regards the issues they have with Behringer.  Also, I didn't see anyone question the ethics of individuals here on PSW, only those of Behringer. 
When you build a business by copying the intellectual property and the designs of others (and you are barred from selling those products in some countries because of this) and then try to go legit by buying respected businesses there will be people who remember who you really are, at least for awhile, and choose not only to not do business with you but also to tell others about who you really are. 

Lee

Dear Lee,
 
Thank you for your comment.
 
I have tried to stay clear of this discussion, but since you addressed me directly, I would like to also engage with you directly.
 
I understand that people have their opinions and preferences and I do respect that. I also understand that some people don’t like me or our company, and chose not to buy our products which I respect, too.
 
However it gets a little tricky, when accusations are made that are simply untrue as this is called libel. In this spirit would you mind telling me which Intellectual Property we have violated and which products we have been allegedly barred from selling and in which countries?
 
I like to thank all people here who comment in a measured and professional way; I am more than happy to reply to any questions in a factual and honest way. Perhaps this could result in a meaningful discussion.
 
Warm regards

Uli

Uli Behringer
MUSIC Group
CEO
www.music-group.com
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Frederik Rosenkjær on April 29, 2015, 03:34:06 am
Uli has moved up from cloning to owning.

Up next: Clowning.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Lee Richard on April 29, 2015, 04:33:22 am
I would say that Bob has valid (although somewhat dramatically stated) concerns. I, like many others, have held a long-term dislike for all things Behringer - built upon experience. That said, I purchased an X32 when they were released and an X32Compact not long after with the thought that the most I could lose was the purchase price. It's now been almost 3 years with no failures. I'm quite happy with the X32 line in sound quality, flexibility, ROI, and surprisingly reliability. I am, however, looking forward to replacing the X32 with an M32 in the near future. I don't expect much, if any, improvement sonically, but the added piece of mind of more robust moving parts (faders, encoders, and buttons) is worth the price premium to me. Having the Midas brand on the case certainly won't hurt my business, either.

Using a DL251 with the m32 was a very noticeable improvement imho. It's a great combination.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 29, 2015, 06:44:10 am
Dear Lee,
 
Thank you for your comment.
 
I have tried to stay clear of this discussion, but since you addressed me directly, I would like to also engage with you directly.
 
I understand that people have their opinions and preferences and I do respect that. I also understand that some people don’t like me or our company, and chose not to buy our products which I respect, too.
 
However it gets a little tricky, when accusations are made that are simply untrue as this is called libel. In this spirit would you mind telling me which Intellectual Property we have violated and which products we have been allegedly barred from selling and in which countries?
 
I like to thank all people here who comment in a measured and professional way; I am more than happy to reply to any questions in a factual and honest way. Perhaps this could result in a meaningful discussion.
 
Warm regards

Uli

Uli Behringer
MUSIC Group

Uli
CEO
www.music-group.com

Uli,
First, I do not dislike you, I do not even know you.  I am fairly certain that I would enjoy having a conversation with you as I find that talking with people with whom I disagree often causes me to see things from a new perspective, one which I may not have considered nor fully appreciated previously.  It does not necessarily cause me to change my mind but does allow me to see things from a different perspective. 

If I recall correctly there was a case which Aphex brought against Behringer (late 90's) the outcome was for Aphex and against Behringer.  A number of subsequent cases I believe settled out of court.  One case, again if I recall correctly, in the U.S. with Peavey did find in Behringers favor stating something to the effect that a circuit board (or circuit board layout) could not be protected by copyright or patent.  I do not recall which (copyright or patent).  What I read of the case at the time was that there was no finding regarding products being copied, but that the legal requirement for patent, copyright, or trademark (again, I don't recall which) infringement had not been met.

Based on what I can find when searching now I retract and apologize for saying that Behringer was barred from providing certain equipment to certain countries due to intellectual property infringement.  I can not find that information when I search for it.  I do recall an FCC order/finding in the U.S. regarding compliance on a number of products.  If there was a time when this caused products to be barred entry perhaps that is what I was recalling.  I certainly wish to be accurate in statements that I make and again sincerely apologize for not being more careful in this regard.

Behringer certainly has increased its QC to among the best in the industry.  In my experience Midas products have had an increase in their conformity/consistency unit to unit.  I can not speak to other MG brands as I have not had any dealings with them since the MG purchase.  Over the last few years in particular Behringer and MG have caused the industry as a whole to rethink their approach to various market segments.  Behringer/MG now builds some of the best made equipment in the industry.  This does not, for me, change my opinion about my purchasing from Behringer.  Based upon their past practices as I have seen them and been told about them, whether legal or not, I have chosen to not support them.  Perhaps you can change my mind and share information of which I was not previously aware.

Lee
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 29, 2015, 09:42:52 am
Dear Lee,
 
Thank you for your comment.
 
I have tried to stay clear of this discussion, but since you addressed me directly, I would like to also engage with you directly.
 
I understand that people have their opinions and preferences and I do respect that. I also understand that some people don’t like me or our company, and chose not to buy our products which I respect, too.
 
However it gets a little tricky, when accusations are made that are simply untrue as this is called libel. In this spirit would you mind telling me which Intellectual Property we have violated and which products we have been allegedly barred from selling and in which countries?
 
I like to thank all people here who comment in a measured and professional way; I am more than happy to reply to any questions in a factual and honest way. Perhaps this could result in a meaningful discussion.
 
Warm regards

Uli

Uli Behringer
MUSIC Group
CEO
www.music-group.com
Uli,

It is apparent that you have successfully navigated the legal issues (either in court or out) to be able to sell your products, even though some of them, other than a different color scheme, are externally identical to other manufacturer's products (see the Ebtech Swizz Army cable tester as an example).  Whatever moral repugnancy that may evoke in some people is in the heart of the beholder.

For me, this is relatively water under the bridge, as in most cases these products became obsolete due to ubiquitous digital mixers pretty much replacing all other audio hardware, and I won't be buying them - Behringer or other - anyway.

That all said, I find myself actually interested in a couple Behringer products - the X-Touch Compact and the Motor-series keyboards.  If you ever plan to ship these (16 months and counting from announcement), let me know. 
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 29, 2015, 11:02:55 am
I apologize if I am repeating myself but there are multiple threads about this  topic in different forums. In my judgement any questionable use of other's IP is both ancient history and a matter of subjective opinion as most high profile cases have been litigated and closed.

I have no doubt about my handful of personal experiences, but only one involved protected IP and Peavey did not win that case in court, so they get to say they did not break the law. I am more than willing to let sleeping dogs lie.

In my judgement Behringer has evolved past the point where there is  much opportunity to copy others, so this is old news and not germane to evaluating the corporation today.

JR

Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 29, 2015, 11:33:32 am
So the thread title is now "Who buys TC Group".

I think it's lovely that Roger Daltry and Pete Townsend have found a new enterprise....

/satire
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Mac Kerr on April 29, 2015, 11:35:52 am
So the thread title is now "Who buys TC Group".

I think it's lovely that Roger Daltry and Pete Townsend have found a new enterprise....

/satire

Better than "Yamaha buys TC Group" which is misleading and has nothing to do with the thread that developed. And I wish Roger and Pete all the best.

Mac
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 29, 2015, 11:37:06 am
Better than "Yamaha buys TC Group" which is misleading and has nothing to do with the thread that developed. And I wish Roger and Pete all the best.

Mac

Not complaining, Mac.  I rather like the concept of rock icons purchasing an iconic manufacturer/distributor.  Oh well.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Steve Payne on April 29, 2015, 11:47:38 am
Not complaining, Mac.  I rather like the concept of rock icons purchasing an iconic manufacturer/distributor.  Oh well.

Now that would be a recipe for disaster!   :P
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 29, 2015, 11:50:44 am
Uli,

How nice of you to pop in and express your concerns. I extend my greeting and hand shake. Nice to meet you.

Many of us, myself included, have been associated with professional sound and the music business for decades, myself for just over 50 years. During that period of time anyone following the history of your company could not help but take note of periods in time where your company had been accused, right or wrong, of using another company's design(s).

There are also products manufactured by your company which are very similar in layout and appearance to other manufacturers products, in some cases so similar as to create confusion and speculation as to the origin or design. Perhaps this was not done with intent, or perhaps in a land where there are no copyright laws, China for example, the design of a product showing a similarity to a known and copyright protected product was not a consideration. And please keep in mind that not only can appearances be deceiving, but that in our world today, most books are judged by their covers.

I don't see where any company on the face of this planet can compete without stepping on someone's toes. It just doesn't happen. Yes, there are instances as stated above, none of which I have fully researched, or will I research. However, those instances and associated innuendo concerning your company, combined with past product quality, has put a cover on your book. Jokingly, I would think that if your book were to be put in a library 5-10 years ago it may end up in the horror section. Today I would say you might find your book in with the rest of the books titled "How to make your business better, but with difficulty".

I'll have to say that what you have done with your company is nothing short of amazing, and I congratulate you on your success. But I think you need to understand the mind set of the people who dislike or do not trust your brand before you can take the next step forward.

I'll use my own experiences here, and not cloud this part of my response with "He said, she said" unproven facts. There was a time when I purchased your products with certain speculation. The brand was new and not well known. I found these initial offerings to be of good quality, sonically capable and functional. In other words, good but average products priced where they should be priced. I would use these products in installations or for personal use, and even recommend your products to others if the product fit the need and was a solution.

Fast forward Uli and your products began to fail me. Not once, not twice, but on a constant basis. Service was very hard to obtain and your products were relegated to a disposable status. I was burned many times by failures at the most inopportune times and lost faith in your products. I then moved to buying your products from Ebay at the lowest price I could find, then using those components for test purposes, demo purposes, etc., finally disposing of them, or selling them on Ebay, once a theory or test had been proved or disproved. Eventually I crossed your product off of my list, never to own or want to own a Behringer product again. When asked my opinion was what you can imagine, and that was that.

Let's move to today.

When you introduced the X32 I sat up straight in my chair and took notice. However, I couldn't get the taste of Behringer past out of my mouth. I felt, and with just reason, that as good as the product appeared to be, I would soon find the product to be an issue at some point in time, probably at the worst time. I had been burned in the past and was not willing to take the risk again, not with a critical component.

At the time I was using APB products, which IMO are superior sonically to many products available even today. The quality of the sound is my primary concern. I wrote an email and sent it to your powers to be requesting a demo of the X32. My full and honest intent was to properly evaluate the board, and then uncover the components for a hard look at the internal quality and workmanship. I could have been won over to your cause, or lost forever. However, none of my requests were answered and I have never received a reply from any of your people. Now, I don't profess to being an important person, but I was a person who was sincere with my request, and even to my surprise, people still come to me for suggestions and advice. Maybe because I'm old and they humor me, who knows.

In the end Uli, I waited for over a year to make my decision on what would be my first move to an entirely digital world. By that time I had still not heard from your people and my final decision, based on sound quality, was to purchase a Soundcraft board.

I commend you on your expressed desire to provide quality sound products, however, I would suggest that one service center and cross shipping may be fine for many people, but it will seldom be a solution for many professionals. Time is money, and the secure feeling of knowing a regional service center is within driving distance, or that knowing a support rep is available 7/24/365 is critical to the purchase decision process, IMO.

Your final step in the transition should be apparent. You have been honest, and I will be honest in stating that the past has left a blemish on your reputation, deserved or not. This is not a perception that can be eradicated with the purchase of high end sound product manufacturers. The perception will be that those newly acquired products will now be manufactured to a lower standard, or that lesser quality components will be used.

You have made great strides within the industry to show the world Behringer is not a throw away product, that your product is top quality, and that you are a name that can be trusted. But for many of us, the jury is still out and ignoring inquiring minds will not help with our perceptions. Your next step now should be to differentiate your high and acquisitions from your MI and entry level offerings. Advertising that the X32 has a Midas designed pre amp may be fine sales speak, but to those who have time in the industry that means little or nothing. It may even mean that you've used the design utilizing lower cost components, and if I don't like the X32 pre amps, I won't like a Midas pre amp either. In my opinion, if you want a chunk of the professional industry, which is not where your profits come from now, and I understand that, you will need to separate by name, that portion of the products catering to that portion of your sales. Much like any company that sells across all markets you might think of differentiating between MI and pro. Perhaps a different logo and the words "UB professional division", and professional division service centers located regionally. Then use the best components available, regardless of origin, raise the price a bit based on those components and support, and the world will be within reach.

A glowing example would be a Radial DI that I purchased this week for a specific purpose. Your products never entered into the purchasing process along with several other budget priced DI's. I spent $800 on the Radial because of the quality, because of the Jensen transformers, because I had support, because of their design and unique features, and because I perceive the name Radial to be a manufacturer of professional level quality product that won't let me down.

Maybe my opinion will change as your company embraces quality and support, but that's not a question I can answer at this time. What I can say is that people like myself and Lee are left with a perception that will be very hard to change. And although this perception is based on much innuendo, finger pointing, and mistruths, there are certain facts which can not be denied. Perhaps in my case I was an unlucky individual, or maybe I wasn't. I can't say one way or the other, and I can only base my opinions on past experience, leaving me unwilling to embrace Behringer.

As an individual I admire your business savvy and wish you luck now and in the future. Please do not be offended by my honesty as I mean no harm, and let me know if you ever establish a professional division as that may change my mind.

Bob Leonard

Boston, MA
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Mac Kerr on April 29, 2015, 11:51:04 am
Not complaining, Mac.  I rather like the concept of rock icons purchasing an iconic manufacturer/distributor.  Oh well.

Like Peter Gabriel and SSL?

Mac
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 29, 2015, 01:12:50 pm
So the thread title is now "Who buys TC Group".

I think it's lovely that Roger Daltry and Pete Townsend have found a new enterprise....

/satire

Better than "Yamaha buys TC Group" which is misleading and has nothing to do with the thread that developed. And I wish Roger and Pete all the best.

Mac

Does this mean we can summarize Bob's post as: "Won't Get Fooled Again?"

-Ray
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 29, 2015, 01:46:11 pm
...
A glowing example would be a Radial DI that I purchased this week for a specific purpose. Your products never entered into the purchasing process along with several other budget priced DI's. I spent $800 on the Radial because of the quality, because of the Jensen transformers, because I had support, because of their design and unique features, and because I perceive the name Radial to be a manufacturer of professional level quality product that won't let me down....

Bob, FWIW the ProD8 (what I think you bought) uses Radial's Eclispse transformers, not the original Jensens, and the design predates the acquisition of Jensen.  Still a good DI, but it's essentially 8 channels of Radial's mid-tier ProDI. To get 8 channels of the old-school Jensen transformers from Radial you need to rack mount 8 JDIs in a J-Rak, at about 3X the cost of a ProD8.  Even the JD6 uses Radial's transfomers. 

Its quite possibly all of Radial's transformers are now manufactured by Jensen, but the ProDI transformer doesn't have the same linear frequency range as the legacy Jensen design used in the JDIs.

I carry three channels or ProDI for keyboards, they work fine. I save the JDI's for other instruments.  I have bunch of Radial interface gear for the studio and live gigs, absolutely love their gear.  Had a few 1/4 nuts get lost over the the years, called support and they said, 'oh sorry', and shipped me parts and some other spares for free the next day,...
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 29, 2015, 01:53:06 pm
...
Warm regards

Uli

Uli Behringer
MUSIC Group
CEO
www.music-group.com

Uli, thanks for dropping in. I like many others gave up on Behringer years ago, not due to perceived business practices but due to product quality (multiple product failures within a year).

Times have changed.

I added an X-32 rack to my inventory a year ago and have really enjoyed using it for rehearsals and for occasional gigs where I can't get enough FOH space or the space/setup it is impractical.  Keep up the good work, I wish you the best. 
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 29, 2015, 02:30:45 pm
(cut)
Warm regards

Uli

Uli Behringer
MUSIC Group
CEO
www.music-group.com

Mr. Behringer,

I too appreciate your dropping in and participating in the forums here. I think it shows a great deal towards your company's newer commitment to customer satisfaction when, from the top on down, Music Group staff are willing to be super accessible by the community. I have seen several of your Customer Care staff chiming in on specific needs/problems that members on here have had, and from what I have seen, it appears that they have gone to extraordinary lengths to deliver excellent service.

I have not had the opportunity or need to avail myself of these services (The only Behringer products I own are a pair of ADA8000s; not because of any attitude towards MG but simply because I have not found myself needing any other products from you! Although I keep hearing good things about the DCX2496...) but I do own a couple of TurboSound TXD-151s so perhaps I will have the chance in the future.

Again, my thanks for your proactive participation on here, SFN, and the other ways your team is showing (with their actions) that Music Group values their customers more so now then has been noticed in the past.

-Ray Aberle
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 29, 2015, 05:05:42 pm
Bob, FWIW the ProD8 (what I think you bought) uses Radial's Eclispse transformers, not the original Jensens, and the design predates the acquisition of Jensen.  Still a good DI, but it's essentially 8 channels of Radial's mid-tier ProDI. To get 8 channels of the old-school Jensen transformers from Radial you need to rack mount 8 JDIs in a J-Rak, at about 3X the cost of a ProD8.  Even the JD6 uses Radial's transfomers. 

Its quite possibly all of Radial's transformers are now manufactured by Jensen, but the ProDI transformer doesn't have the same linear frequency range as the legacy Jensen design used in the JDIs.

I carry three channels or ProDI for keyboards, they work fine. I save the JDI's for other instruments.  I have bunch of Radial interface gear for the studio and live gigs, absolutely love their gear.  Had a few 1/4 nuts get lost over the the years, called support and they said, 'oh sorry', and shipped me parts and some other spares for free the next day,...

I actually called support after reading that Radial had bought Jensen and asked that very question. It seems that at one point supply and demand kept Radial from using Jensen transformers, even in the "J" series DI's. Move forward and Radial buys Jensen, purchases and installs new Swiss winding machines, and supposedly now uses Jensen transformers in everything, even though some may not say Jensen on them. Well, I'm confused now, but I really don't care knowing that whatever they do, whatever they use, will be of the type quality we expect from Radial. And I'll say again, those smoking hot 8 channels from the Roland module have been tamed, and in the best way. Thanks for the added info though, more food for thought.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 29, 2015, 06:14:44 pm
The world is changing.  The design skills embodied in companies and products of the analogue era need to transition into a digital era.  In the vendor-managed-architecture digital future that is ahead of us, only the largest companies will thrive.  So much will be integrated that even superior wrapped-in-yet-another-box solutions will be rejected by most of the market as too hard and too inflexible.  A boxed solution needs its own power and rackspace.  It needs its own patching.  A boxed solution can only ever be one instance of itself.  A boxed solution has limited insert points where it can operate.  Algorithms running on a generalised processing platform are freed from these limitations.  Want the function of the old box in a dozen locations?  Click-twist-click-click.  Done.

Imagine what the audio world will look like in 15-20 years.  Imagine what pathways exist to get there, and what battles for resources must be fought to get there.  Remember that many technologies will also die over this period as parts stop being manufactured.

If we lift our gaze from next-year's product lineup to next decade's lineup the movements and actions of companies becomes clearer.  Companies that don't have solid positions for this digital future are already goners; all they can hope for is to be aquired to save a big player a few years of R&D.
Title: Re: Yamaha buys TC Group?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 29, 2015, 06:20:24 pm
---clip---
 
However it gets a little tricky, when accusations are made that are simply untrue as this is called libel. In this spirit would you mind telling me which Intellectual Property we have violated and which products we have been allegedly barred from selling and in which countries?
 -clip--

Quote from:  definition Libel
libel
1) n. to publish in print (including pictures), writing or broadcast through radio, television or film, an untruth about another which will do harm to that person or his/her reputation, by tending to bring the target into ridicule, hatred, scorn or contempt of others. Libel is the written or broadcast form of defamation, distinguished from slander, which is oral defamation. It is a tort (civil wrong) making the person or entity (like a newspaper, magazine or political organization) open to a lawsuit for damages by the person who can prove the statement about him/her was a lie. Publication need only be to one person, but it must be a statement which claims to be fact and is not clearly identified as an opinion. While it is sometimes said that the person making the libelous statement must have been intentional and malicious, actually it need only be obvious that the statement would do harm and is untrue. Proof of malice, however, does allow a party defamed to sue for general damages for damage to reputation, while an inadvertent libel limits the damages to actual harm (such as loss of business) called special damages. Libel per se involves statements so vicious that malice is assumed and does not require a proof of intent to get an award of general damages. Libel against the reputation of a person who has died will allow surviving members of the family to bring an action for damages. Most states provide for a party defamed by a periodical to demand a published retraction. If the correction is made, then there is no right to file a lawsuit. Governmental bodies are supposedly immune to actions for libel on the basis that there could be no intent by a non-personal entity, and further, public records are exempt from claims of libel. However, there is at least one known case in which there was a financial settlement as well as a published correction when a state government newsletter incorrectly stated that a dentist had been disciplined for illegal conduct. The rules covering libel against a "public figure" (particularly a political or governmental person) are special, based on U.S. Supreme Court decisions. The key is that to uphold the right to express opinions or fair comment on public figures, the libel must be malicious to constitute grounds for a lawsuit for damages. Minor errors in reporting are not libel, such as saying Mrs. Jones was 55 when she was only 48, or getting an address or title incorrect. 2) v. to broadcast or publish a written defamatory statement.

See also: defamation  libel per se  public figure  slander


 I would be careful about making any reputation damaging statements as "fact" without first hand knowledge, or solid supporting evidence. Here-say in not evidence. 

Quote from:  re: opinions
Can my opinion be defamatory?

No—but merely labeling a statement as your "opinion" does not make it so. Courts look at whether a reasonable reader or listener could understand the statement as asserting a statement of verifiable fact. (A verifiable fact is one capable of being proven true or false.) This is determined in light of the context of the statement. A few courts have said that statements made in the context of an Internet bulletin board or chat room are highly likely to be opinions or hyperbole, but they do look at the remark in context to see if it's likely to be seen as a true, even if controversial, opinion ("I really hate George Lucas' new movie") rather than an assertion of fact dressed up as an opinion ("It's my opinion that Trinity is the hacker who broke into the IRS database").


Quote from: re: malice

A public figure must show "actual malice"—that you published with either knowledge of falsity or in reckless disregard for the truth. This is a difficult standard for a plaintiff to meet.


Quote from:  re corporations
Corporations are not always public figures. They are judged by the same standards as individuals.

This is a professional forum and as long as we treat each other with respect and limit our comments to our own first hand knowledge I hope there won't be any legal problems.

JR

Caveat lector ,,, I am not a lawyer but I can google
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 29, 2015, 08:09:56 pm
Like Peter Gabriel and SSL?

Mac
So that's who outbid me on ebay... I always wanted to buy SSL... ;)
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Craig Leerman on April 30, 2015, 12:08:25 am
So that's who outbid me on ebay... I always wanted to buy SSL... ;)

I tried to buy SSL on eBay but they didn't take PayPal.  ;D

Just got an email,  It's official, MG bought TC
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 30, 2015, 01:08:21 am
I tried to buy SSL on eBay but they didn't take PayPal.  ;D

Just got an email,  It's official, MG bought TC

Craig,
Another subject, thanks for the review of the Radial ProD8. You swayed my decision and it's everything you claimed it to be.

Oh, and I thought I heard taps being played about an hour ago.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Daniel Levi on April 30, 2015, 03:28:36 am

Just got an email,  It's official, MG bought TC

http://www.music-group.com/news.aspx

Quote
MUSIC Group has today announced the acquisition of TC Group, one of the largest group of companies in the professional audio industry. Headquartered in Denmark, and with offices all over the world, TC Group owns and manages some of the most acclaimed brands such as Tannoy, Lab Gruppen, Lake, TC Electronics, TC Helicon and TC Applied Technologies.

The addition of Tannoy, Lab Gruppen and Lake allows MUSIC Group to round out their professional install and touring sound offerings alongside Midas, Klark Teknik and Turbosound, while TC Electronics and TC Helicon represent the industry’s leading brands in the guitar effects and voice processing sector, and perfectly complement MUSIC Group’s Bugera guitar tube amplifier brand and highly successful Behringer prosumer division.

TC Electronic has also long been established as a leader in broadcast, studio, mastering and production processing, where it gained ultimate authority in loudness control and mastering. For decades now, Tannoy’s HiFi products continue to win “Best in Class” Awards, and as a result the brand has developed a huge following of audio enthusiasts around the world.

TC Group’s strong focus on product innovation and IP creation is further demonstrated by their TC Applied Technologies company, which is invested in cutting-edge semiconductor designs, networking and interface technology.

MUSIC Group founder and CEO Uli Behringer commented, “MUSIC Group stands for relentless focus on innovation, business transformation and overall IP creation. Since the acquisition of Midas, Klark Teknik and Turbosound, we have been continuously pursuing brands that complement the mixing console, processing and loudspeaker excellence offered by these historic brands. Throughout our search, TC Group has clearly stood out as the ideal match because of their world-class brands, impressive intellectual property, sterling reputation and first-class team of people. I am very proud to welcome the TC Group team into our family.”

Tannoy, Lab Gruppen and Lake will now join MUSIC Group’s prestigious Midas, Klark Teknik and Turbosound anchor brands to further strengthen MUSIC Group’s continued expansion into the professional A/V market. Aimed at delivering complete system solutions to Install and Touring customers, the combination of these brands represents an unprecedented range of choice for the most demanding of applications.

Uli Behringer continued, “We will invest heavily in positioning TC Group’s brands at the very pinnacle of the industry, as we have done with Midas, Klark Teknik and Turbosound, where we have invested over $100 million in highly automated and integrated manufacturing facilities, quality control systems and engineering resources, including a new Center of Engineering Excellence in Manchester, UK.

TC Group will now equally have full access to MUSIC Group’s extensive resources and advanced automated system platforms in such areas as product development and lifecycle management, engineering, manufacturing, supply chain and finance.”

TC Group’s CEO Anders Fauerskov responded, “We are very honored that during the acquisition process, some of the largest industry players were bidding for TC Group; however we have selected MUSIC Group as they represent the perfect fit in terms of strategic direction, overall synergies and company culture. Our team is thrilled to join MUSIC Group and open a new chapter for TC Group and its prestigious brands. With the incredibly talented people and massive resources of the MUSIC Group behind us, the team is excited to enter a new era of unprecedented innovation and growth.”
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Ted Christensen on April 30, 2015, 12:45:47 pm
http://www.music-group.com/news.aspx

so...behringer owns lab gruppen now too?
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 30, 2015, 01:13:49 pm
so...behringer owns lab gruppen now too?

By "Behringer" you mean Uli Behringer, the CEO of The MUSIC Group, yes.

"Behringer" the music company is a owned subsidiary of The MUSIC Group, as is now TC Group, along with Turbosound, Midas, Klark Teknik, among others.

Interestingly enough, The Music Group is a holding company based in the City of Makati, Phillipines.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 30, 2015, 01:18:46 pm

Interestingly enough, The Music Group is a holding company based in the City of Makati, Phillipines.

That's where Uli resides these days.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 30, 2015, 01:34:37 pm
That's where Uli resides these days.

That'd make sense. But did he move there and then found The Music Group, or did he found TMG and then decide to move to the Philippines? Other then being conveniently close to Chinese production facilities, I'm wondering why they chose that country to base out of.

-Ray

Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 30, 2015, 02:01:45 pm
That'd make sense. But did he move there and then found The Music Group, or did he found TMG and then decide to move to the Philippines? Other then being conveniently close to Chinese production facilities, I'm wondering why they chose that country to base out of.

-Ray

Taxes and cost of living.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: John Fruits on April 30, 2015, 06:44:00 pm
Next up they should buy Philips Lighting.  They have been up for sale for a while and have some very big boy lines.  The current Behringer lighting product doesn't get a lot of love. 
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 30, 2015, 07:34:31 pm
J.R. I seem to remember you or some other proper EE doing a comparison between the Europower amps and QSC RMX's and finding them nearly identical in topology/layout although with very cost constrained implementation.

I've owned the signal processing gear where I thought I could get the same performance/functionality for less, only to have to dump it as the performance wasn't the same.  I completely understand the economies of scale in manufacturing and some of the cost advantages in offshore manufacturing.  I'm off in a week to a southern China manufacturing complex to dial in processes for a consumer product.  I've been through the whole migration of manufacturing there.  Although it still makes me wonder about the total cost of offshoring when I check into a hotel in Shanghai and run into 40 Apple employees from Cupertino in the lobby.

In my world of Silicon Valley these days, Industrial Design is king.  Creating it, protecting it, and trying to keep others from copying it.  When I look at the B DI boxes my keyboard player has, the size and shape is identical to my BSS DI.  Of all the other DI's I've ever seen, these are the only two that have that same size and shape.

I've seen first hand the functional copying of guitar stomp boxes, albeit in cheaper generic cases.  I don't think it's libelous to have the opinion that the history of the company is built on much more imitation than innovation.  Which is unfortunate since the early beginnings were of an innovative small scale company.  Maybe this is like a case of John Mayer producing syrupy pop songs so that he can play the blues.  Build up a company so that you can acquire the talent to innovate what you really want.  Unfortunately when you do this, it takes awhile for the stain to wear off.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 30, 2015, 08:40:50 pm
J.R. I seem to remember you or some other proper EE doing a comparison between the Europower amps and QSC RMX's and finding them nearly identical in topology/layout although with very cost constrained implementation.
No not me, but I recall seeing the photographs posted to the WWW revealing the similarity between those two amps, just like everybody else did. IIRC Bob Lee even recognized some identical paragraphs in the owner's manual since he wrote the QSC one (apparently not copyrighted back in those kinder gentler times.). 
Quote

I've owned the signal processing gear where I thought I could get the same performance/functionality for less, only to have to dump it as the performance wasn't the same.  I completely understand the economies of scale in manufacturing and some of the cost advantages in offshore manufacturing.  I'm off in a week to a southern China manufacturing complex to dial in processes for a consumer product.  I've been through the whole migration of manufacturing there.  Although it still makes me wonder about the total cost of offshoring when I check into a hotel in Shanghai and run into 40 Apple employees from Cupertino in the lobby.
That's the rub of having a production floor on the other side of the world. It's better now than it was, but leaving Chinese factory managers to use their personal judgement when they can't get in touch with somebody from the home office to answer a question, has been the root cause of many production SNAFUs. Bills and routings must be complete, and accurate. Leave nothing to chance.
Quote
In my world of Silicon Valley these days, Industrial Design is king.  Creating it, protecting it, and trying to keep others from copying it.  When I look at the B DI boxes my keyboard player has, the size and shape is identical to my BSS DI.  Of all the other DI's I've ever seen, these are the only two that have that same size and shape.
Trade dress is a form of IP and there have been pretty interesting court cases regarding hand held test equipment dress that was copied, but in our industry few bother to perfect design patents (different than utility patents) or otherwise protect such things.

I suspect the lads at Apple have always been protective of their ID et al. While Apple ripped off the technology for their music players from Creative Labs.  Probably cheaper to just buy them 
Quote
I've seen first hand the functional copying of guitar stomp boxes, albeit in cheaper generic cases.  I don't think it's libelous to have the opinion that the history of the company is built on much more imitation than innovation.  Which is unfortunate since the early beginnings were of an innovative small scale company.  Maybe this is like a case of John Mayer producing syrupy pop songs so that he can play the blues.  Build up a company so that you can acquire the talent to innovate what you really want.  Unfortunately when you do this, it takes awhile for the stain to wear off.
I don't think it matters what you think "isn't" libelous, in fact it doesn't much matter what you or I think at all, but it matters what we say, as young, wet behind the ears newbies may learn something unpleasant from our ramblings. 

At this point anybody who hasn't already figured out what is what, deserves what they get.

Enjoy your visit to China,,, (nice to visit). Hope you don't get stuck on a plane coming back full of screaming adopted babies..  :o That can make the long flight even longer.

JR
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Luke Geis on May 01, 2015, 12:47:20 am
I would say this is par for the course really. I'm not surprised, nor alarmed.

Here is my thought on it, be it right or wrong. A company that has been around for 30+ years has no excuse to fail. Especially those in the top echelon. Not really relevant, but Louis Vuitton is a company that has been around for 150 years, and as it was then, it is still a top company with no fear of falling out of fashion ( literally ) and has never had a sale or price reduction. The point is that the company has done what it has needed to stay in the game. It doesn't matter how good your product is, if no one can, wants to, or will afford it, there is no way to continue business. If your making the best soup in the world and you know it, but have priced yourself out of the market to the point where people will not bend over backwards to get it, your going to have to do one of two things. Suck up some pride and change your pricing ( because how much could it possibly cost to make soup right? ), or find a way to make the product a must have, no matter what item. This is regardless of the fact that it costs you 10 cents to make 10 bowls of soup that you sell for $100 per bowl...... If people MUST HAVE IT AT ANY COST, they will, AT ANY COST. If they don't, they won't. So this begs the question; what did TC group do that caused them to have to sell? And why should we be upset at another company that has shown the ability to hang in the market?

Ask 100 sound guys and I bet 99% will know who both Lab Gruppen and TC Electronics is, but how many of them will actually own those products? My bet is one in 100 sound guys will actually own 2 or more products from the entire TC group catalog used for the purpose of live sound? I would venture that the majority would love to own one or more products from the TC group. Many here on this forum are in the upper tier of employment and perhaps work for a company that owns such brands though. Again however, only a few out of many companies will have such equipment. Lets assume safely that 10% of all sound companies from small to large actually own TC group products. Now if you are priced out of 90% of the market because they won't justify it's expense, does that make you safe in any market? Obviously not......... If you can't give what people want at the price they will afford, you don't have a product, you have sale.

Taking a look at the whole market shows a pretty alarming trend. A majority of top tier products are beginning to become absorbed by " Groups " that purchase them. Nexo is owned by Yamaha, EAW and Martin Audio by Loud Technologies and of course Turbosound and Midas by Music Group. Harman Group owns 8 product lines and all are top tier names. So it should come as no surprise that TC ( also a group ) has been absorbed by yet another group. The big kicker is that Music Group is kicking some serious butt right now. As shaky as their past has been ( at least from an origins standpoint ) they have come about face and have shown to abide by the simple rule of market share. Have what people want at a price they will afford. It doesn't matter if you think Behringer and Music Group is the scourge of the earth, they have beaten the odds and are not exactly hurting the market. Avid is even showing signs of rocky grounds only recently trending upwards and most of the market of mixers is owned by other groups. The interesting thing is that MG is a private company and is not traded on the open market like Avid ( who is selling stock at $16 per share ). Even Allen & Heath has a parent company who is trading in the open market. MG has kept and enhanced products once unobtainable by the majority, available to a larger market segment.

It's really hard to fathom how a mixer or even an amplifier can cost as much as a car. Some Neve mixers reach close to the million dollar mark! If I recall correctly, the Midas H3000 sold for over $100,000 when new and can be had these days for between $15,000 - $40,000 used ( depending on desperation I guess? )! Even a new SC48 will set you back 25K for just the mixer. Your still going to want the stage boxes. This really knocks a large portion of the potential market out of contention. The idea of making it so that only the best represent you is great, but if it isn't sustainable, then what good is it? The market is tough, as the ROI must be quick on something that has a life span of between 5-10 years before obsolescence. A million dollar PA would need to draw in a clear 17K a month to pay itself off in 5 years. Even over a 10 year span you would need to drag in over 8k a month! There are not very many companies that can afford to make that purchase or lease and keep the PA moving like that. Again, a very small portion of the sound market is able to do that. As things are, it is just working for a small number of companies in the live audio product segment. Once bought out by a group, the prices tend to go down or at least the technology advances, making the product hold it's current market value. The acquisition of TC Group by MG is going to make the product either better, or more attainable; hopefully both.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 01, 2015, 02:10:29 am
^^ What he said.






EDIT:  And it gets put on the next page to make me look stupid!



Steve.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on May 01, 2015, 09:51:00 am

^^ What he said.






EDIT:  And it gets put on the next page to make me look stupid!



Steve.

If it's any consolation, it showed up right in Tapatalk.

The rumour I hear is that TC Group was doing okay, and that some of the top guys were just looking to get out of the game. I'm sure the full story will come out over time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Mikael Holm on May 01, 2015, 06:34:36 pm
When I look at the B DI boxes my keyboard player has, the size and shape is identical to my BSS DI.  Of all the other DI's I've ever seen, these are the only two that have that same size and shape.

I think there is Samson (blue), Soundking, JB Systems (black) and a few others.

It's fun to think that Samsontech used to be the distributor for Behringer in the States.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Kristo Kotkas on May 12, 2015, 04:48:36 pm
It's interesting to see Dynaudio ended up not being in that deal... As a Dynaudio fan I wonder what was that all about?
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 12, 2015, 04:54:17 pm
Maybe you could address Uli? Oh, I forgot, other than a tongue lashing it seems he won't reply.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on May 12, 2015, 04:58:25 pm
It's interesting to see Dynaudio ended up not being in that deal... As a Dynaudio fan I wonder what was that all about?
According to their website
Quote
By the end of 2014, GoerTek Inc. acquired the majority shares of Dynaudio. GoerTek Inc. is born in 2001 and listed in Shenzhen Stock Exchange in 2008.
Title: Re: Who buys TC Group?
Post by: Kristo Kotkas on May 12, 2015, 05:04:11 pm
According to their website

Chinese company bought them? Damn this sounds even worse :(