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Title: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Stephen Kirby on March 31, 2015, 01:32:38 am
Hello, previous member Steve Kirby here.  Been out of action for awhile.  The homebuilt line arrays and stands are long gone and I'm just doing small gigs with a pair of K10s and CuboSubs loaded with a pair of the LW1400s I had in front loaded cabs previously when needed.

Thinking about upgrading the tops to 12" based and using the K10s for small gigs or as monitors.  Since the CuboSub cabs are more efficient and I still have the Crest Pro9200 to drive them, I can do a bit more than the K10s will handle.

In my price range are the K12s, Yamaha DXR12s and have been looking into the soon to be released EV EKX12s.  I know a couple of top shelf keyboard players who replaced their K10s with DXR10s and said they have more guts.  Have heard a pair used in a small room as mains and they sounded good.

Went down to banjo hut this evening just to get an idea and compare the Yammies with the higher end ETX12s.  The EV's sounded like JBLs to me.  Gone was that nice warm sound of the passive Sx300s.  Very forward and in your face compared to the Yamahas.  With that kind of midrange horn sound you associate with a large outdoor concert.

My issue with the QSCs is the pattern.  Very noticeable change off axis.  The EV's were better and the Yamahas much better still.  30 degrees off axis and they sounded the same.

I searched here for any info on the EKXs and just found a thread grumbling about them not having PowerCons (I still have all my PowerCon distro stuff so it would be nice but not mission critical for what I'm doing now).  Has anyone actually heard these cabs?  How similar to the ETX are they?

It really seems like the DXR12s are my best option.  Sound I like and proven reliability.  Just that they're an older design and I don't know what other options exist in that price range.  On paper the EKX should blow them away.  But paper doesn't mean much with all the spec hype and if they also have a hyped up "loud" sound.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Lyle Williams on March 31, 2015, 06:39:39 am
I A/B'd PRX700 against ETX before buying ETX recently.

I haven't seen or heard an EKX yet.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Olewiler on March 31, 2015, 06:50:09 am
Before you buy the DXR, contact Mike Pyle and get a price on the DSR112. Members who own them seem to really love them.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on March 31, 2015, 09:59:49 am
I A/B'd PRX700 against ETX before buying ETX recently.

I haven't seen or heard an EKX yet.

EKX has a May 2015 release date.

For me the EKX looks like it'll be a replacement to the ELX down the road.  The EKX is using the ELX drivers and a DSP amp and ETX horn lens.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Mike Santarelli on March 31, 2015, 10:34:42 am
I was in a similar situation between the DXR12's and k12's.  My gut told me to go with k12's but I wanted to try something cheaper.

I am using them primarily for monitors and mains for smaller events. 

At first I went with the dxr12's.  They are no doubt great speakers.  Very smooth sounding especially when doing music playback.  When I auditioned them live I was less impressed.  I felt they didn't have the punch and cut I was desiring for live sound.  Keep in mind I think they are great speakers and the mixer section is very good.

I was able to a/b the dxr12 and k12 side by side and run them through several tests.  Here is what I took from it as well as several others in the room.

- music playback: it was close.  The DXR's were very clear but the k12's were as clear with more body.
- Vocals and live sound - K12 had much more punch and cut.  Vocals were much more present and instruments cut more. 

Keep in mind both speakers were run in flat as possible settings.  The dxr is more scooped to me.  Great for the untrained ear and may sound better at first with program music, but the k12 is better suited for live sound imo.  More mids are present and it shows with vocal and instrument sound reproduction. I found the limiters came on sooner in the dxr as well.

The dxr's immediately went back in favor of 4 k12's. 

Initially, the yamaha's with covers saved me $500.  As a long term investment, I felt the price was worth it for the k12's  Over a few years the difference is negligible. 

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not bashing the dxr series.  They are amazing speakers.  For live sound I just give the nod to the qsc's. 

Some things I like about the dxr12's are both sides are setup for monitor use, and the covers for them run about $40 and are top notch and a tight fit.  I'd prefer the dxr covers over the qsc totes.  I do prefer having a top handle on the qsc.  The dxf does not. 
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Tim Weaver on March 31, 2015, 01:22:13 pm
DSR112

Just do it. It's the best of the best of the best that you can find on the street. You would have to pay many, many sheckels to get anything better.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: David Hayes on April 02, 2015, 09:30:47 pm
DSR112

Just do it. It's the best of the best of the best that you can find on the street. You would have to pay many, many sheckels to get anything better.

Absolutely true.  And they can be had for $750 a piece.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Tom Roche on April 03, 2015, 12:08:14 am
Absolutely true.  And they can be had for $750 a piece.
Where?
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Robert Piascik on April 03, 2015, 12:19:59 am
Where?

Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 03, 2015, 01:17:54 am
Since they don't have the DSR at the local Banjo Hut I've been trying to read data sheets to see what the difference is.  Both data sheets are not written on the same basis.  Power ratings are not qualified as "dynamic" or RMS on the DSR so you can't see if it's a 200W difference or 800W.  Which would make a difference.  It shows a 2" titanium driver and lower crossover by 400Hz but the type of diaphragm on the DXR isn't listed.  Aluminum?  Phenolic?  The polar plots are similar in spite of the lower crossover point, at least in the horizontal.  The FR graphs show the DSR as hotter by 5-6dB from 5-10k.  At least there's no 3-4k bump.  But that 5-7k thing spec's similarly to the ETX that I didn't like the sound of.  I recognize that "presence" sounds like it "cuts" better.  But I find it fatiguing and can always eq it in if necessary.  Neutral always seems to me to be easier to work with and carries better than peaky things that stick out.  At least the Yamahas are fairly smooth in how they go about the tilt.

I also like the dual angle mount on the DXR.  Used it often on my QSCs.

But I don't want to have buyers remorse for saving a couple hundred bucks and having something that is significantly compromised.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: David Hayes on April 03, 2015, 08:32:45 am
Get the DSRs.  You won't be sorry.  And yeah, you can get them almost anywhere for $750/box, but I would call/email Mike Pyle. He's a great guy and will hook you up.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 03, 2015, 01:54:27 pm
Another vote for the DSR's.  While there is little difference on papaer between the K12, DXR12 and DSR112, in the real world there is quite a bit of difference in sound quality as well as sound output.

The DSR's also have a professional grade finish so they will stay looking great much longer than the others in this price range.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Tom Roche on April 03, 2015, 02:49:26 pm
Another vote for the DSR's.  While there is little difference on papaer between the K12, DXR12 and DSR112, in the real world there is quite a bit of difference in sound quality as well as sound output.

The DSR's also have a professional grade finish so they will stay looking great much longer than the others in this price range.
I've wanted to demo the DSRs for a while, but no opportunity yet.  Any idea how the DSR112 compares to QSC HPR122i wrt sound quality?  I know it's a rather subjective topic.  Either gets plenty loud for my purposes, but I like that the Yams weigh 13 lbs less.  Somewhat apprehensive about the composite material used on the DSR cabinet vs. birch, but perhaps it's a non-issue.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: David Hayes on April 03, 2015, 06:57:04 pm
DSRs also have a 7 year warranty.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 03, 2015, 07:08:49 pm
I've wanted to demo the DSRs for a while, but no opportunity yet.  Any idea how the DSR112 compares to QSC HPR122i wrt sound quality?  I know it's a rather subjective topic.  Either gets plenty loud for my purposes, but I like that the Yams weigh 13 lbs less.  Somewhat apprehensive about the composite material used on the DSR cabinet vs. birch, but perhaps it's a non-issue.

Unfortunately I have not directly A/B'd the HPR122i to the DSR's.  I have heard a group that had them in the local area, but that was some time ago.

I have A/B'd the DSR112's to the KW122's and K12's.  I thought the DSR112 sounded better than both of those speakers.  DSR112>KW122>K12.... YMMV.

Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Luke Geis on April 03, 2015, 07:24:36 pm
The DSR's  and the Electro Voice ETX line are the only MI, semi pro level boxes ( market wise anyway ) that uses FIR tuning. The DSR is a little over $100 cheaper on average though and to the best of my knowledge is teh only one using mutli band compression? The DSR also boasts a 2" driver for the highs. This is not so much a big deal, but is one of the biggest in it's class. The DSR does not have a dual angle pole cup, but the ETX does. The DSR is also a little bit lighter, by about 10lbs. The 7 year warranty of the DSR's is also hard to beat.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 03, 2015, 11:47:08 pm
+1 on the DSR's... I LOVE mine...Mike Pyle is your man.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 04, 2015, 08:28:55 am
The DSR's  and the Electro Voice ETX line are the only MI, semi pro level boxes ( market wise anyway ) that uses FIR tuning. The DSR is a little over $100 cheaper on average though and to the best of my knowledge is teh only one using mutli band compression? The DSR also boasts a 2" driver for the highs. This is not so much a big deal, but is one of the biggest in it's class. The DSR does not have a dual angle pole cup, but the ETX does. The DSR is also a little bit lighter, by about 10lbs. The 7 year warranty of the DSR's is also hard to beat.
JBL's SRX800P series is now shipping, and has FIR tuning.  I haven't heard the JBLs against the DSR series, but I have heard them against the ETX line and they sound good.  The HF driver has a 3" voice coil, and the box has the dual angle pole socket, among lots of other good qualities.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 04, 2015, 04:28:02 pm
It's a fabulous time for speaker technology.  EV and JBL have stepped up, and others are sure to follow.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Corey Scogin on April 04, 2015, 04:40:24 pm
It's a fabulous time for speaker technology.  EV and JBL have stepped up, and others are sure to follow.

How does the ETX line compare to the old standard QRx?  If it does not meet or exceed the performance of the QRx then EV has not stepped up.  Adding FIR processing does not necessarily mean the product performs better.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 04, 2015, 08:07:32 pm
I did side by side comparision with ETX, PRX700, and DSR.  I haven't mentioned the DSR previously because I'm sure something was very wrong with the unit I listened to.

ETX was especially better than the PRX when getting flogged.

I would expect QRX with good crossover/delay to sound  better than ETX.  But ETX packages things up into an idiot-proof (peak and thermal limited) active at a lower price point.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 04, 2015, 08:34:11 pm
How does the ETX line compare to the old standard QRx?  If it does not meet or exceed the performance of the QRx then EV has not stepped up.  Adding FIR processing does not necessarily mean the product performs better.
Why the negativity?  ETX sounded good to me. I've never heard QRx, but I definitely preferred the sound of the SRX800P series to the passive SRX700 series (my experience with SRX700 is pre-V5) and the ETX was different than SRX800 but still good.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Corey Scogin on April 05, 2015, 01:26:59 am
Why the negativity?  ETX sounded good to me. I've never heard QRx, but I definitely preferred the sound of the SRX800P series to the passive SRX700 series (my experience with SRX700 is pre-V5) and the ETX was different than SRX800 but still good.

I really liked the EV QRx series and would have loved to upgrade to a powered version a few years back.  I haven't heard very favorable reviews for the ETX.  People still seem to recommend the Yamaha DSR 112 over the ETX-12P which tells me the ETX could be better. 

I may harbor a touch of bitterness toward EV since I bought a set of the ELX 112P's to use as monitors when they first came out.  Those don't sound bad but the build quality is poor (controls, paint, etc) and they don't compare to the DSR.  There weren't nearly as many options then as there are today.

I would expect QRX with good crossover/delay to sound  better than ETX.  But ETX packages things up into an idiot-proof (peak and thermal limited) active at a lower price point.

I just think EV should have aimed a little higher and went for a real QRx replacement.  Maybe the ETX is close enough.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on April 05, 2015, 12:00:55 pm
I really like my QRX112/75 rig with a PRX618XLF subwoofer and MixWiz for live vocals and between set DJing (Cuban timba), but my aging back is not so happy lugging the rack and 60 lb passive tops. The QRX rig is actually a little larger than I need for the kind of music we do in small NYC clubs. So I bought an ETX10P and Yorkville LS720P sub in an effort to downsize and simplify from the QRX rig. My goal was to get equivalent sound quality to the QRX at a slightly lower SPL. I had already compared the EV ZX3, EV ZXA1, PRX612M, RCF310A, and RCF412A to the QRX and only the RCF412A came close in sound quality. I am using the EV DSP presets for the QRX, which make it sound just a little bit smoother to my ear. None of the others have a built in crossover, so when the ETX line came out I was very excited to be able to use the built in crossover and leave my DSP and amp rack at home.
Unfortunately, I have not found the ETX10P to be close enough to the QRX sound for my taste. The QRX has a much better, more natural sounding horn and, not unexpectedly, better mid bass. The ETX can partially make up for the mid bass deficiency with the built in PEQ (at a cost of lower max SPL) but the highs are just not as clear and smooth as the QRX. Also, I prefer at least 2 handles with 1 on top, and the ETX has only one side handle. It does appear well built and the PEQ and crossovers are easy to use although not networkable. I have not heard the DSR112, although without a built-in crossover it would not allow me to completely dispense with my rack. Maybe when I get a digital mixer...
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Wagner on April 05, 2015, 12:10:56 pm
the ETX has only one side handle.
You know, it IS possible to carry speaker cabinets without using the handles. This is exactly how I tote my PRX. Single handles make for an awkward carry, so I use none of them - one hand under the bottom, and one near the top to stabilize. It's easier on the back, too.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 05, 2015, 12:20:00 pm
The DSR's have a single handle on top .... which is convenient for carrying 2 at a time, but I miss the handle when I am putting them on poles.

As far as the DSR not having a cross-over, it does have a HPF set at 110Hz.

I don't use it though since the PRX XLF HPF output is set at 90Hz which would leave a hole between 90 and 110Hz.  I run the tops in full range with the XLF handling the bottom end and providing the cross-over output HF to the tops.

If you are using a matched pair of tops and subs, this might not be that big a deal ..... since one would hope that the manufacturer would have matched the cross-overs to their own speakers.

I have often wondered how this works when a single manufacturer makes a sub, a 3 way 15" top, a 2 way 15" top, a 2 way 12" top and a 2 way 10" top.  Surely the sub can't work ideally with all these speakers with a single cross-over point?
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: David Hayes on April 05, 2015, 01:48:04 pm
HPF on the DSR is actually set at 120.   
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 05, 2015, 03:54:36 pm
HPF on the DSR is actually set at 120.
My bad.

Then it makes even less sense to me.  The mid lows on the DSR are fantastic.  Feeding them with >90Hz works wonderfully IME.  I think you would lose out on some of the speakers best capabilities if you limited them to >120Hz.  Of course you may get even more volume out of them if you did that..... not that I have ever had any need for more volume from them.  They easily handle a single XLF per side and to my estimation could just about match up evenly with 2 XLF's per side .... even handling at the lower cross-over point.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 05, 2015, 08:35:32 pm
I have often wondered how this works when a single manufacturer makes a sub, a 3 way 15" top, a 2 way 15" top, a 2 way 12" top and a 2 way 10" top.  Surely the sub can't work ideally with all these speakers with a single cross-over point?

I guess it's just one of many design goals for speaker designers: "must meet up phase/delay-wise in the vicinity of our other products"

But it will be a tradeoff.  The ETX (and I'm sure other new stuff) let you program the subs and the tops to know what each other are.  If the designers weren't asleep they should fit nicely together.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 05, 2015, 09:40:10 pm
The DSR's have a single handle on top .... which is convenient for carrying 2 at a time, but I miss the handle when I am putting them on poles.

As far as the DSR not having a cross-over, it does have a HPF set at 110Hz.

I don't use it though since the PRX XLF HPF output is set at 90Hz which would leave a hole between 90 and 110Hz.  I run the tops in full range with the XLF handling the bottom end and providing the cross-over output HF to the tops.

If you are using a matched pair of tops and subs, this might not be that big a deal ..... since one would hope that the manufacturer would have matched the cross-overs to their own speakers.

I have often wondered how this works when a single manufacturer makes a sub, a 3 way 15" top, a 2 way 15" top, a 2 way 12" top and a 2 way 10" top.  Surely the sub can't work ideally with all these speakers with a single cross-over point?

I run mine the same way Scott (DSR12, JBL PRX718XLF) I never tried using the HPF in the DSR's. I like how they sound together.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 06, 2015, 05:26:50 pm
I run mine the same way Scott (DSR12, JBL PRX718XLF) I never tried using the HPF in the DSR's. I like how they sound together.

Hi Debbie,

About how much do you have your inputs sensitivity set to on your DSR's vs your XLF's?  Have you run into the limit lights on either yet?  I think that the only times I have limit lights are outdoors, or larger indoors and it is usually the subs that blink first ..... although for some reason when we play "Aeroplane" by RHP, we clip the tops just a little on some of the slap bass hits while the subs don't seem to clip on that particular song.

I do agree though, that running the speakers this way gives a very pleasing result.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 06, 2015, 06:31:39 pm
Are there enough low mids on the DSR12's to run aux fed subs outdoors?  Smalish gig using 1-18 subs.  Less stuff in the signal path is always better.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 06, 2015, 08:21:49 pm
Are there enough low mids on the DSR12's to run aux fed subs outdoors?  Smalish gig using 1-18 subs.  Less stuff in the signal path is always better.
I am not sure I understand your question entirely.  Are you saying you are doing an outside gig with a single 18" sub and just a DSR112 .... or even a pair of DSR112's .... or are you saying you are using between 1 and 18 subs?

I am guessing the former.

The proper way to do aux fed subs would still have a cross-over involved in it IMHO. Using the previous example of a DSR112 and a PRX718XLF, you could provide a full range signal to the sub, but the DSR112 top would need a seperate feed that contained only >90Hz content.

Alternately, you could engage the HPF on the DSR112 instead of using a cross-over.  You could then send full range signals to both the sub(s) and the top(s).... with the understanding that with this particular set of powered speakers, you would lose much of the content between 90 and 120Hz.

The better option would be a cross-over.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Steve Garris on April 06, 2015, 09:29:46 pm
Are there enough low mids on the DSR12's to run aux fed subs outdoors?  Smalish gig using 1-18 subs.  Less stuff in the signal path is always better.

I think he's saying he'll be using a pair of tops over a pair of single-18 sub's.

If so, this will work well outdoors but not at huge volume and you'll be pushing the sub's hard.
I would run the sub's aux fed, and the tops on the full range setting.

I've done exactly this with my PRX sub's, and the PRX-115 tops as well as the DSR112's.
My take is that the DSR's are louder, but required more EQ to get smooth sounding in the upper frequencies.
My PRX115's are smooth as glass when run almost flat. The DSR's are killer monitors though!
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 06, 2015, 09:41:53 pm
Hi Debbie,

About how much do you have your inputs sensitivity set to on your DSR's vs your XLF's?  Have you run into the limit lights on either yet?  I think that the only times I have limit lights are outdoors, or larger indoors and it is usually the subs that blink first ..... although for some reason when we play "Aeroplane" by RHP, we clip the tops just a little on some of the slap bass hits while the subs don't seem to clip on that particular song.

I do agree though, that running the speakers this way gives a very pleasing result.

Hey Scott,

I start the subs at 3.00 and the tops at 12.00. Then maybe a little more on the subs if needed. I've never experienced clipping on either but for the larger venues and outside, I use the SRX system and add the 2 PRX718's on aux to supplement - it works like a charm!!
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Steve Garris on April 07, 2015, 12:56:29 am
Hey Scott,

I start the subs at 3.00 and the tops at 12.00. Then maybe a little more on the subs if needed. I've never experienced clipping on either but for the larger venues and outside, I use the SRX system and add the 2 PRX718's on aux to supplement - it works like a charm!!

Exactly the same as I do as well. PRX615 or DSR112 over PRX618xlf
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 07, 2015, 01:36:41 pm
Steve, you've got it.  A pair of DSR12s over a pair of single 18 subs.  Vocals, guitars and such run full range though the tops with bass, kick, keys, etc run out an aux bus to the subs low passed at 100 or so.  Concern is that strong male vocals would have enough beef through only the DSRs.  This is a small park gig where there won't be much bass guitar leakage into the vocal mics.

The subs are Cubo 18's with 18-Sound LW1400 drivers running off a Crest Pro 9200.  Not quite TH18s but more than standard bass reflex single 18s.  I used to have 4 of these drivers in vented boxes and the quasi tapped horns or whatever they are only need two to outrun the previous 4.  There's also an SRX like 60Hz bump that while not high fidelity, gets the kick drum across.  I've also used these in a 300 seat theatre and in a closed well designed space running EDM for a dance company they can get pretty visceral.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Carneval on April 07, 2015, 02:52:41 pm
Alternately, you could engage the HPF on the DSR112 instead of using a cross-over.  You could then send full range signals to both the sub(s) and the top(s).... with the understanding that with this particular set of powered speakers, you would lose much of the content between 90 and 120Hz.

You're not really going to have as much of a hole as you think.  You might not have any hole at all depending on your levels and your crossover slope(s). The ELECTRICAL crossover of the subs is 90z, but the ACOUSTICAL crossover is the frequency at which the subs and tops meet at the same level.  Most people run their subs quite a bit hotter than the tops.  A 10-20db haystack isn't at all uncommon.  If you're using a 24db/octave crossover, and your subs are 24db hotter than your tops, then the acoustical crossover will actually be a full octave higher than the electrical crossover setting. 

I've attached a screenshot of a crossover I just made in dbx software.  The subs are LPF at 90hz with a BW24.  The tops are HPF at 120hz with a BW24.  There's really no hole at all.  The subs meet the tops just shy of 120hz.  Now of course real world measurements will vary based on the actual response of each speaker, but this just shows you what's actually happening at your crossover point.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 07, 2015, 10:31:25 pm
You're not really going to have as much of a hole as you think.  You might not have any hole at all depending on your levels and your crossover slope(s). The ELECTRICAL crossover of the subs is 90z, but the ACOUSTICAL crossover is the frequency at which the subs and tops meet at the same level.  Most people run their subs quite a bit hotter than the tops.  A 10-20db haystack isn't at all uncommon.  If you're using a 24db/octave crossover, and your subs are 24db hotter than your tops, then the acoustical crossover will actually be a full octave higher than the electrical crossover setting. 

I've attached a screenshot of a crossover I just made in dbx software.  The subs are LPF at 90hz with a BW24.  The tops are HPF at 120hz with a BW24.  There's really no hole at all.  The subs meet the tops just shy of 120hz.  Now of course real world measurements will vary based on the actual response of each speaker, but this just shows you what's actually happening at your crossover point.
Thanks for the info!  It just sounds bad to have a hole I guess ;)
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 07, 2015, 10:34:07 pm
Hey Scott,

I start the subs at 3.00 and the tops at 12.00. Then maybe a little more on the subs if needed. I've never experienced clipping on either but for the larger venues and outside, I use the SRX system and add the 2 PRX718's on aux to supplement - it works like a charm!!

Debbie and Steve,

Mine are at 2 and 11 ;)  Kind of funny we all gravitated to the same relative levels. 
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: David Hayes on April 08, 2015, 06:20:47 am
Hey Scott,

I start the subs at 3.00 and the tops at 12.00. Then maybe a little more on the subs if needed. I've never experienced clipping on either but for the larger venues and outside, I use the SRX system and add the 2 PRX718's on aux to supplement - it works like a charm!!

Are you guys saying you run a full range signal into the subs, then LP at the sub and send the full range signal on to the tops?

I ask because I aux the subs, or do the pan trick (LS801Ps) and run a full range signal to the tops (DSR12s) and either engage the HPF and set the LPF on the subs to 120 or more often than not I use a crossover at 100 and feed tops and subs off that.  I think the crossover way sounds better, but it would be convenient to take the crossover out of the picture.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 08, 2015, 11:10:41 am
Are you guys saying you run a full range signal into the subs, then LP at the sub and send the full range signal on to the tops?

I ask because I aux the subs, or do the pan trick (LS801Ps) and run a full range signal to the tops (DSR12s) and either engage the HPF and set the LPF on the subs to 120 or more often than not I use a crossover at 100 and feed tops and subs off that.  I think the crossover way sounds better, but it would be convenient to take the crossover out of the picture.

That is what I do and I get great results.- If it ain't broke don't fix it.
I used to do the same when I used PRX612's with the XLF subs - the 612's do not have HPF  so I had to. When I got the DSR's, even though they do have the HPF, I just did the same as before and it sounded good….and it keeps set-up simple.

I used to have to bring my crossover to gigs when I used a couple of K-subs with my PRX612's for while and it was a PIA !
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 08, 2015, 07:37:30 pm
Are you guys saying you run a full range signal into the subs, then LP at the sub and send the full range signal on to the tops?

I ask because I aux the subs, or do the pan trick (LS801Ps) and run a full range signal to the tops (DSR12s) and either engage the HPF and set the LPF on the subs to 120 or more often than not I use a crossover at 100 and feed tops and subs off that.  I think the crossover way sounds better, but it would be convenient to take the crossover out of the picture.

Not exactly.  From here: http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL_PRX718XLF_v5.pdf

There is a HPF output on the XLF when you press the button for it on the back panel.  This creates an output from the sub that is "crossed over" at around 90 Hz so that even though you are running the top in full range, the signal going to the top has only the frequencies that the sub isn't handling for it.

From here:  http://yorkville.com/downloads/ownersman/om_ls801p.pdf

On page 3 you can see that the LS801p doesn't have a HPF output like the XLF does.  The output from this sub is a full range signal.  The only options for this sub would be to engage the HPF on the top (if the top has one), or to use a cross-over and run separate lines to the subs and tops.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 08, 2015, 08:10:43 pm
As was pointed out, there is an acoustic crossover in play.  In the scenario I asked about the dispersion of lower frequencies in a free field (outdoors) causes a more pronounced roll off than one may have planned on in leaving the upper ranges of the subs out of a particular source.

I guess for the big voiced male singer I'm going to be dealing with I can add in some sub on his channel to compensate for this.  I was just curious if anyone using these tops in an aux fed setup had experience with how solid the tops hold up in mid-bass outdoors when that source isn't in the subs.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 08, 2015, 10:03:22 pm
As was pointed out, there is an acoustic crossover in play.  In the scenario I asked about the dispersion of lower frequencies in a free field (outdoors) causes a more pronounced roll off than one may have planned on in leaving the upper ranges of the subs out of a particular source.

I guess for the big voiced male singer I'm going to be dealing with I can add in some sub on his channel to compensate for this.  I was just curious if anyone using these tops in an aux fed setup had experience with how solid the tops hold up in mid-bass outdoors when that source isn't in the subs.
I brought my DSR112's to a party a friend was having at a lake house on a hill overlooking a lake that was about 60 yards from the house.  It was supposed to be background music only, but when I showed up, it was an entire band.

I didn't mic the kick, but I did mic the bass, vocals, and guitars.

The DSR's were blinking the limit lights all night long, but they sounded full and clear all the way to the dock.  The bass sounded fantastic through them.

I have A/B'd them to my Klipsch KP301 3-way 15" speakers.  While they are great at mid bass (very punchy), they aren't good at all at low bass.  It just isn't there.  I suspect the DSP takes it out.  My 15" have way more bass to them and give a much more full sound than my DSR's.  The DSR's are a MUCH nicer sounding speaker though..... and DSR's over XLF subs absolutely crush my 15" speakers.

I have never run aux fed subs though.  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Steve Garris on April 08, 2015, 10:22:41 pm
Are you guys saying you run a full range signal into the subs, then LP at the sub and send the full range signal on to the tops?

I ask because I aux the subs, or do the pan trick (LS801Ps) and run a full range signal to the tops (DSR12s) and either engage the HPF and set the LPF on the subs to 120 or more often than not I use a crossover at 100 and feed tops and subs off that.  I think the crossover way sounds better, but it would be convenient to take the crossover out of the picture.

Scott, I actually do a Left - Subs, Right - Tops mix. I run the kick, bass guitar and keys panned 50/50. Everything else panned hard right to my 615's, set at full range. I find this simpler than even an aux fed mix (which I could easily do), and like Debbie said, it's a quick set up. I run a Mackie DL1608 on the stage, and just mix all night with my iPad. Lights are all sound activated.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Jonathan Betts on April 08, 2015, 10:57:13 pm
Scott, I actually do a Left - Subs, Right - Tops mix. I run the kick, bass guitar and keys panned 50/50. Everything else panned hard right to my 615's, set at full range. I find this simpler than even an aux fed mix (which I could easily do), and like Debbie said, it's a quick set up. I run a Mackie DL1608 on the stage, and just mix all night with my iPad. Lights are all sound activated.

Are you using a LPF on your sub?
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: David Hayes on April 09, 2015, 05:59:50 am
Scott, I actually do a Left - Subs, Right - Tops mix. I run the kick, bass guitar and keys panned 50/50. Everything else panned hard right to my 615's, set at full range. I find this simpler than even an aux fed mix (which I could easily do), and like Debbie said, it's a quick set up. I run a Mackie DL1608 on the stage, and just mix all night with my iPad. Lights are all sound activated.


That's pretty much what I do.  Saves my Auxes for monitors and fills.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Nick Reese on April 09, 2015, 11:43:05 am
Scott, I actually do a Left - Subs, Right - Tops mix. I run the kick, bass guitar and keys panned 50/50. Everything else panned hard right to my 615's, set at full range. I find this simpler than even an aux fed mix (which I could easily do), and like Debbie said, it's a quick set up. I run a Mackie DL1608 on the stage, and just mix all night with my iPad. Lights are all sound activated.

I also run the DL1608, but with aux fed subs (have never thought of doing it the left/right way). Do you use either a HPF or LPF on each individual channel as a way to LPF the subs and HPF the tops? Then leave the master output without any HPF/LPF and use only for eq? Seems like a pretty easy way of doing it, just wondering how you get the filters to the tops and subs this way.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 09, 2015, 12:18:13 pm
I don't think using the eq on a board is going to give you a very steep slope.  Most powered subs have a LPF built in and all the amps I have (Crest, QSC) have built in LP for sub use.  Newer DSP amps can implement full crossover functions.

You might get sufficient HPF from a board eq to keep good tops from blowing out while using the LPF on an amp or active sub.

Also, most powered tops have a built in HPF.  The discussion here is that the Yamaha DSRs (which look like the best bet for my uses) have a fairly high turn over point.  The EV EKX's that I was waiting to see how they sound have a more sophisticated onboard processing.  But given that they are slotted below the ETX which I didn't like the sound of, I think the Yammies are the ticket forward.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Nick Reese on April 09, 2015, 01:19:19 pm
Are the JBL SRX812P available yet? Curious to how they'll compare to the DSR
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Steve Garris on April 09, 2015, 02:24:04 pm
I also run the DL1608, but with aux fed subs (have never thought of doing it the left/right way). Do you use either a HPF or LPF on each individual channel as a way to LPF the subs and HPF the tops? Then leave the master output without any HPF/LPF and use only for eq? Seems like a pretty easy way of doing it, just wondering how you get the filters to the tops and subs this way.

I use the HPF aggressively on individual vocal and guitar channels.
I do not use any pass filters on the master output, only EQ.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Jonathan Betts on April 09, 2015, 02:41:23 pm
You pay for the processing in these powered speakers. Why not use the system as it was designed to be used? IMO, you may be sacrificing system performance by doing a aux/group fed sub without a proper system processor.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Luke Geis on April 09, 2015, 03:03:26 pm
The " hole " that some people speak of when running aux fed subs is more of a setup an implementation issue. There is no rule that says you can only put kick and bass in the subs. You can put anything and everything in them if you want. The second part has to do with crossover settings. Anything below about 80hz is pretty much non directional, meaning that localization is lost below that point. What that means is that if you cross the subs over lower, they will meld with the rest of the system better and the possible hole will fill in easier between the tops and the subs.

If running center clustered subs the hole can also seem to come out more as well. To me the benefit of center clustered subs mostly outweigh conventional sub setups. You gain some free power ( over a broader area ), minimize comb filtering and the aesthetic is maintained when doing center clustered subs. The alignment of the subs to the tops is then a small issue, but only between material placed within both parts of the system. Again however, if the subs are crossed over lower, localization is reduced and the downsides are minimized.

Processing designed into powered subs are probably more aimed at conventional setups yes, but most allow the crossover to be turned off, adjusted, or at the very least is set at a point high enough that you could cross the signal going into them even further. Yes you will need a crossover for the tops if you want to get the most out of it, but is not the end of the world if you don't. This is up to the user to experiment with. It's a YMMV situation for sure sort of thing. Ideally yes, a crossover should be used, but try and see what you get.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Nick Reese on April 09, 2015, 03:17:20 pm
You pay for the processing in these powered speakers. Why not use the system as it was designed to be used? IMO, you may be sacrificing system performance by doing a aux/group fed sub without a proper system processor.
I currently have an all passive system, was just trying to ask about a particular way of H/LP using the 1608 - didn't mean to get the thread off topic
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 09, 2015, 10:33:28 pm
Are the JBL SRX812P available yet? Curious to how they'll compare to the DSR

I don't know, but I would like to know too ;)  I always loved the sound of the SRX715's for tops.  I was hoping that the powered line was just as good.

With the X32's RTA feature, I have noticed that there is lots of HF content (>90Hz) in both the bass and the kick.  I feel like you would lose something if you sent the entire bass and kick only to the subs.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 09, 2015, 11:17:24 pm
I don't know, but I would like to know too ;)  I always loved the sound of the SRX715's for tops.  I was hoping that the powered line was just as good.

With the X32's RTA feature, I have noticed that there is lots of HF content (>90Hz) in both the bass and the kick.  I feel like you would lose something if you sent the entire bass and kick only to the subs.

No, the HF content is still in the mains.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Carneval on April 10, 2015, 07:16:34 am

I don't know, but I would like to know too ;)  I always loved the sound of the SRX715's for tops.  I was hoping that the powered line was just as good.

With the X32's RTA feature, I have noticed that there is lots of HF content (>90Hz) in both the bass and the kick.  I feel like you would lose something if you sent the entire bass and kick only to the subs.

You're not sending the kick and bass ONLY to the subs. You're ONLY sending the kick and bass to the subs. And maybe keys and whatever other instruments have LF content that needs to be reproduced. The idea is to keep vocal mics, snare, overheads, etc OUT of the subs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 10, 2015, 08:25:13 am
Different strokes I guess.

A bit off topic, but I personally prefer to let the cross-over separate frequencies vs the mixer separating sources.
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Robert Piascik on April 10, 2015, 08:35:43 am
How bout we let guys other than those named "Scott" comment. It's diff for me to keep you guys straight.

:)

Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Scott Olewiler on April 10, 2015, 10:19:02 am
How bout we let guys other than those named "Scott" comment. It's diff for me to keep you guys straight.

:)

Yeah, that sound good. Oh wait....
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: Luke Geis on April 10, 2015, 12:17:11 pm
As mentioned before, the new SRX series will probably be very comparable to the STX line. My guess is probably better actually; more so because of it's versatility and ability to integrate into the Vertec line. Another company often forgotten about that is also producing good stuff is D.A.S Audio. They have a higher end line that is competitively priced and well performing. 
Title: Re: Current powered 12" tops
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 10, 2015, 02:54:26 pm
Are the JBL SRX812P available yet? Curious to how they'll compare to the DSR
They are trickling out.  Another batch is due in a week or so.  I've heard the SRX815P and liked it.  I haven't heard it against the DSR, but there's a lot of processing in the SRX that's very cool, and they sound great.