ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Mark McFarlane on March 22, 2015, 06:52:40 am

Title: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on March 22, 2015, 06:52:40 am
Providing my first gig where the rider requires a dedicated monitor board.  The band is bring their own FOH and Mon engineer. I'm trying to pre-program the show and wire up some racks.   Monitors will be 7 IEMs and 3 wedges.

Who typically controls the preamp gains and phantom?  FOH or Monitors? Is there a defacto standard?

This will effect which cables (short/long) I use at the splitters.  The passive splitters I am using aren't of great quality (all I could find), so I'd prefer to send the straight (non-transformer) channels to FOH.

(Asking the band will be useless, after pestering them for a month I'm still waiting for a revised channel layout and a few other outstanding issues.)
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Steve M Smith on March 22, 2015, 07:55:46 am
If you are using passive splitters then both mixers will have their own gain control (unless I'm missing something).  As for which end supplies phantom - it might as well be both unless your splitters have transformer isolation.

EDIT: Re reading your post, I see you do have transformers!


Steve.
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on March 22, 2015, 08:09:41 am
Yep, transformer splitters.  I meant to ask 'who controls phantom'.   I guess its not such a big deal.

Been living in the digital snake world... but for this gig I need to split before my AR2412,
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Keith Broughton on March 22, 2015, 08:24:53 am
Yep, transformer splitters.  I meant to ask 'who controls phantom'.   I guess its not such a big deal.

Been living in the digital snake world... but for this gig I need to split before my AR2412,
It works both ways as long as the phantom source in on the non isolated side of the split.
 Some think it's better from monitors due to the shorter cable length.
Also, the monitor person will know what needs phanton as they are involved at the deck.
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Matthew Knischewsky on March 22, 2015, 10:16:29 am
Providing my first gig where the rider requires a dedicated monitor board.  The band is bring their own FOH and Mon engineer. I'm trying to pre-program the show and wire up some racks.   Monitors will be 7 IEMs and 3 wedges.

Who typically controls the preamp gains and phantom?  FOH or Monitors? Is there a defacto standard?

This will effect which cables (short/long) I use at the splitters.  The passive splitters I am using aren't of great quality (all I could find), so I'd prefer to send the straight (non-transformer) channels to FOH.

(Asking the band will be useless, after pestering them for a month I'm still waiting for a revised channel layout and a few other outstanding issues.)

It doesn't really matter. Some would rather have the short DC path from monitors, some would rather have the direct, non transformer feed to FOH. On a festival stage I prefer to have phantom from monitors because communication is faster without having the FOH engineer involved.
Doesn't sound like you're doing a festival, and if you're concerned about the transformers in the split not being of the highest quality, I would send the direct to FOH, transformers to monitors, phantom from FOH.

Matt.

PS there's generally nothing wrong with using a passive, non transformer splitter for up to 3 outputs. You loose the transformer isolation, but with modern equipment and good power distribution it's much less of a concern. I remember reading an article (in the old LAB?) about how poor quality transformers can cause more trouble than they're worth. YYMV.
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: James Wright on March 22, 2015, 12:20:20 pm
Relying on the FoH guy to do phantom quickly is a nightmare.
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 22, 2015, 01:05:02 pm
Relying on the FoH guy to do phantom quickly is a nightmare.

Kind of depends, eh?  I personally prefer for monitor mixerpersons to take care of +48v but most of our splitters are transformer isolated so I've gotten in the habit of assigning it as FOH is usually on the direct side of the split.

With passive splits there have been times when both desks have had phantom switched on with no resulting problems.  I'd not suggest it as common practice but it's not a big deal (presuming all your cables are wired correctly).

I think what matters most is that the FOH and monitor mixerpersons have a PLAN.
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on March 23, 2015, 12:15:43 am
Thanks everyone. It's not a festival so there won't be a need to change phantom after I set the stage.  I certainly see where that would be a challenge, and appreciate the heads up.

I wired up the racks last night with the direct side going to FOH.

Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Ryan O John on March 23, 2015, 11:32:11 am
Generally I prefer Phantom from Monitors, because if something needs to be changed on stage, he's the guy closest to it, and can see what's happening much more clearly.  He can radio to FOH to mute something, and kill phantom, change a mic, light it back up, and radio up to unmute... 

Simple things
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on March 28, 2015, 04:19:12 am
Thanks everyone for the help.

The gig went well.  No surprises, everything worked. I had to make a few changes to the monitor programming that was finally sent to me the morning of the show (routing problems). Only a few unexpected changes from the rider. 

The band ignored my advice to take the 'early flight', then spent 2.5 hours in immigration, showed up at the venue straight from the airport a little after 6PM for 7:00 doors. 

We integrated their 10 channels of IEMs in about 10 minutes (one of a half dozen 'errors'  in the rider, they said 7 IEMS and 3 wedges), moved a few mics around the stage (stage plot was missing a few things), reset the keys and drums, did a quick sound check, and let the audience in from the parking lot about 7:30.  They played 2 hours straight, very high energy.  Had 50% of the audience up dancing in the aisles and pit. 

The FOH engineer wished he had a little more volume.  I didn't have the heart to tell him I had turned down the mains in the DSP about 6db for what I thought was 'loud enough' for the venue and audience.  Setup was so hurried that everyone was just happy that FOH and monitors were actually set up correctly and working and the system sounded good. Apparently that wasn't their experience in the last 3 cities.  The band was happy, I got an unexpected bonus. Based on my conversations with the audience during and after the gig, I made the right choice, it was plenty loud, but a tad light in the subs.

Normally I run FOH for the few tour gigs I do every year. This was the first band to bring their own engineers. It was fun to walk the venue, interact with the crowd, eat some food... very low stress after the show started.  The mix was a little kick-heavy for me, but.... :)
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: William Schnake on March 28, 2015, 02:49:37 pm
Yep, transformer splitters.  I meant to ask 'who controls phantom'.   I guess its not such a big deal.

Been living in the digital snake world... but for this gig I need to split before my AR2412,
When we use a split, the monitor console always controls phantom.  I wish I had a good reason other than 'we have always done it that way'.

Bill
Title: Re: Headamp control from FOH or monitors?
Post by: Andrew Broughton on March 29, 2015, 12:36:34 am
When using passive splits, just phantom from both consoles. It won't hurt anything and if one cable happens to get pulled out from either console for whatever reason there's no earth-shattering kaboom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk