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Title: Rider friendly console
Post by: eric lenasbunt on February 16, 2015, 10:21:29 pm
I'm finding this planned purchase of a new console to be very difficult. Currently I can cover 80% or so of my gigs with the x32 family.  However more recently I am doing many larger shows, both in channel count and rider demands.  I am now renting an M7 or SC48 1-3 times a month. It is hitting the borderline of being a good idea to buy as I have to drive 4hrs round trip for each rental as well plus the $400 rental each time. However, the console market seems really strange right now with few new consoles showing up on/sticking to riders.

Budget-wise I am really in the used M7 or SC48 budget range and those line up well with riders, channel counts,etc. I Definitely need sub $15k.
If it were a console just for me I would go Vi1, but that won't be nearly as rider friendly as I want.

My questions/concerns for you all are:
 
M7, very long in the tooth. Concerned about this console being at the end of its life. Also concerned that the console only has a couple more years as rider friendly. Also by far one of my least favorite consoles ever made, but for my shows I will just use the x32...
Price is right however and is currently very rider friendly

SC48
Concerned about Avid and the support of this console. Also an aging console. I am thinking it will have 3-5 more years on the b list riders (which is more than my m7 guess). More at the top of my budget but I like the features and I personally love the console.

Am I missing any other contenders? I would love an SD9, but that's way out of budget. I am also ok waiting another year, I can always buy more lights this year, they don't sound as good but they seem to make more money!

Thanks!


Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Steven Eudaly on February 17, 2015, 12:55:11 am
SC48
Concerned about Avid and the support of this console. Also an aging console. I am thinking it will have 3-5 more years on the b list riders (which is more than my m7 guess). More at the top of my budget but I like the features and I personally love the console.

Am I missing any other contenders? I would love an SD9, but that's way out of budget. I am also ok waiting another year, I can always buy more lights this year, they don't sound as good but they seem to make more money!

IMO, you have your answer. If you feel the market is simply in a weird place right now (to which I would agree) and can wait another year, then go ahead and save/use that money for some other money making items.

But if you think now is the time for you to step up your console game, I agree the SC48 is a solid choice. You already like the console and it's still very rider friendly--much more so than the M7.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 17, 2015, 01:19:53 am
I really, really like mixing on Venue systems.  The continued speculation about AVID's future doesn't help the brand, but neither does failing to deliver a live-format replacement for the current system.  No, the S3L ain't it... a useful tool but not a replacement for a full surface.

We're also a Yamaha shop and have 2 M7 in inventory.  I'm not privy to when it might go EOL but that it will go, eventually, is certain.  If you can find a re-fadered M7-48 for <$13k, consider it.  You can't get a decent, used SC48 for anywhere close to that.

If you need to spend money, lights are still good investments.  I'm partial to things that can become line-items on an invoice, but you have to have the support infrastructure (cables, cases, control or dimming, etc), too.

Sometimes your best investment is $1000 worth of casters...
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Kyle Van Sandt on February 17, 2015, 02:31:29 am
Well, at least your making a killer return on those X32's.  Have you look at Midas?  They are on a lot of riders and are gaining steam... It will give you a few more years then the Avid gear. 

Killer price here: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1032032&gclid=CjwKEAiAx4anBRDz6JLYjMDxoQYSJAA4loRmQPRJxobUQriXl1VN1ZfIAx0GbE3jtogQzfZO3XV8jRoCdizw_wcB&Q=&is=REG&A=details

No idea if that is an incorrect item or something like that but it is MUCH cheaper then I paid a little over a year ago. 

Buying either of those consoles kind of sucks right now unless you can amortize it within 2 years.  The resale won't be there so you will be stuck with it.  We used to see Avid desks constantly... seems in the last year that has really changed.   

Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Jim McKeveny on February 17, 2015, 03:52:04 am
I'm partial to things that can become line-items on an invoice, but you have to have the support infrastructure (cables, cases, control or dimming, etc), too.

Sometimes your best investment is $1000 worth of casters...

You speak my language Tim. Less time and energy expended packing/moving/assembling a show equals more time and energy available for the creative end of things.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Guy Morris on February 17, 2015, 07:49:22 am
Avid SC48 would normally win over an M7 but longevity support is now a criteria. Everyone can use an M7 and it is also a good choice for monitors within the right market. I think Yamaha have a strong position in the digital desk market both financialy and product wise with support for older models and a very good range of new product which brings a lot of useful features together putting the CL and QL series firmly in the frame now. I have an M7 which still gets used but my QL is out all the time and if I were looking to replace the M7 it would be a CL. It all depends on your market and how rider driven it really is, I have a good laugh at some of the corporate/ wedding band riders that come in asking for desks that are more at home on a stadium event (ego is a growing issue with these types) and then we go and do a principal artist event where they are happy to have an M7 on FOH and the BE requested an SC48 for monitors. Everyone was happy 'all night long'  :)
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 17, 2015, 09:27:34 am
At $400/rental twice a month, for a year and a half, that is around the price of an M7.
While it is a bit old, they are solid consoles and pretty much everyone is familiar with them.
When it comes to consoles, no matter what you have, someone will want something different. ::)
Perhaps you could continue to cross rent, see how your market goes, and get the good $$ return on using the X32.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Jason Raboin on February 17, 2015, 10:25:45 am
Why not a Yamaha Ql5?  I prefer the QL to an M7.  They have an intuitive workflow and sound quite good.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Erik Jerde on February 17, 2015, 11:02:24 am
What else are you going to have to buy if you get a m7 or sc48?  Do you already own a 48 channel analog snake?  If you're going to have to buy into that infrastructure (as well as cases and truck space) then I'd look hard at saving your money for a digital snake option.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: jason misterka on February 17, 2015, 12:23:36 pm
Why not a Yamaha Ql5?  I prefer the QL to an M7.  They have an intuitive workflow and sound quite good.

I agree but with reservations.  He would have to be able to have enough stagebox to do 48 ins.  I assume that means buying a Rio as well?  I'm not sure the pricing. Does that stay within budget?

I haven't seen a SC48 going for much less than $16K used.  Plus the OP would need the snake or the Stage48 add-on.  Also a spilt.

In my opinion, if you need to meet riders the Avid Profile / SC48 is still top dog. Bands who carry their own consoles have diversified in the last few years but the Avid consoles meet most riders.

When we can, I offer a tour their choice of our inventory. These days  it is 50/50 if they chose SC48 or PRO2 at FOH.  Often they will choose M7 for monitors.  Many times the choice simply comes down to if they have a file for the desk.

But I'm surprised that the OP can get away with only one large format console.  What is typically on the other end of the snake?

Jason
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Josh Voyles on February 17, 2015, 05:49:43 pm
I'm finding this planned purchase of a new console to be very difficult. Currently I can cover 80% or so of my gigs with the x32 family.  However more recently I am doing many larger shows, both in channel count and rider demands.  I am now renting an M7 or SC48 1-3 times a month. It is hitting the borderline of being a good idea to buy as I have to drive 4hrs round trip for each rental as well plus the $400 rental each time. However, the console market seems really strange right now with few new consoles showing up on/sticking to riders.

Budget-wise I am really in the used M7 or SC48 budget range and those line up well with riders, channel counts,etc. I Definitely need sub $15k.
If it were a console just for me I would go Vi1, but that won't be nearly as rider friendly as I want.

My questions/concerns for you all are:
 
M7, very long in the tooth. Concerned about this console being at the end of its life. Also concerned that the console only has a couple more years as rider friendly. Also by far one of my least favorite consoles ever made, but for my shows I will just use the x32...
Price is right however and is currently very rider friendly

SC48
Concerned about Avid and the support of this console. Also an aging console. I am thinking it will have 3-5 more years on the b list riders (which is more than my m7 guess). More at the top of my budget but I like the features and I personally love the console.

Am I missing any other contenders? I would love an SD9, but that's way out of budget. I am also ok waiting another year, I can always buy more lights this year, they don't sound as good but they seem to make more money!

Thanks!

Eric, It looks like the Pro2C may be a viable option.

However, I think you might also be  interested in the QL desks.

Here a short justification I did on our end that goes over features that I think are important.

Yamaha QL/CL justification over LS9/M7

Built-in Dante: Seamlessly network multiple dante devices. 64x64 digital IO. Built-in redundancy for all Dante devices. Added Bonus — Dante Virtual Sound Card let’s you record/playback 64 inputs via your computers ethernet port for recordings, virtual sound check and rehearsals. Yamaha CL series comes with Nuendo Live and allows for “easy record” function. Additionally, built-in Dante frees up the card slots for use with other cards such as Waves Soundgrid. (CL Requires RIO stage boxes and gigabit network switch for redundancy)

Dante integration with Shure Wireless: A lot of engineers prefer Shure wireless. Why not keep it all digital with redundancy?

Separate analog gain from digital gain with gain tracings: Along with improved quality preamps, you can improve S/N ratio without affecting channel input level and manage gain across multiple consoles.

Premium Rack: Additional 8U rack with important Dynamic EQ, LA-2A and 1176 with the added bonus and Neve modeled hardware.

Scribble Strips: Organize, name and color your channels. It eliminates tape and allows for easy identification for a single fader controlling multiple channels.

Touchscreen (Over LS9) for quick navigation.
Improved Layout Feel
More GEQ and FX
Easy Input/Output patch recall: Recall routing for virtual soundcheck w/o having to write a focused scene.
Size/Weight (Over M7CL)

Yamaha CL justification over QL:

Comes with Nuendo Live and better integration for VSC and recording.
External PSU option: Never worry about your PSU failing when you have a backup.
Optional Meter bridge for managing output.
Tactile control keys: Navigate the console quicker.
16 GEQ over 8 on the QL
More user defined keys
Channel Encoders
Individual channel banks: Access any layer including custom layer on any bank of your faders w/o affecting the other banks.
3 card slots vs 2 card slots
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 17, 2015, 05:57:21 pm
Quote
I Definitely need sub $15k.
Can a CL package for 48 inputs meet the OPs price point?
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Cailen Waddell on February 17, 2015, 07:12:26 pm

Can a CL package for 48 inputs meet the OPs price point?

Nope.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on February 17, 2015, 07:44:14 pm
Can a CL package for 48 inputs meet the OPs price point?
QL5 will get him there easily. Yamaha is currently offering a free RIO with the purchase of a CL5 or QL5:


http://www.yamahacommercialaudiosystems.com/riopromo/
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: eric lenasbunt on February 18, 2015, 01:46:02 pm
Thanks for all the replies, I pleasantly ended up on some unexpected gigs, so have been absent from my own thread.

To the CL/QL argument, I'm just not confident enough that they are sticking around yet. The M7 can be had pretty cheaply, seems to be at least half the price of the QL5.
The other issue with new Yamaha's is the ridiculous price of the Rio boxes. That's an expensive console once you get into 2 of the big Rio boxes.

The Midas Pro2 is an option and I agree it is starting to see acceptance, the problem there is one of my main clients hates that board and from my very limited experience it is not a good monitor desk.

I do have analog infrastructure, splits, etc to support 48 channels, however using the x32's I never use those beasts.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Kyle Van Sandt on February 18, 2015, 02:01:35 pm

The Midas Pro2 is an option and I agree it is starting to see acceptance, the problem there is one of my main clients hates that board and from my very limited experience it is not a good monitor desk.



You need more experience with it then... I would much rather spend the day on a monitors on a Pro2 than an M7 or SC48.  Most people who really hate the Pro2 either had one that was not properly setup or fought it and tried to use it like a Venue console.  Of course if that engineer hates it uses a ton of plugins then he is right... it does really suck for that.  In the last year we have had a ton of people come in and step up to the console dreading it... they usually leave happy.  After you grab the gain and dial it up most people start coming around.  On the flipside setting one up fresh is probably one of the more frustrating experience I have ever had.  Every time I open that patch screen I die a little inside... it has one of the least intuitive patch GUI's ever.  When the console comes out of the box nothing is patched and there are no default scenes.   
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Scott Helmke on February 18, 2015, 02:54:03 pm
If a "main client" hates a particular desk, then that's a pretty decent reason to strike that desk from the list.

If you want to stay in business then arguing over which console sounds best is stupid. Buy the one that sounds good enough (and they pretty much all do nowadays) and that meets the needs of your clients at a price you can afford.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 18, 2015, 05:59:07 pm
If a "main client" hates a particular desk, then that's a pretty decent reason to strike that desk from the list.

If you want to stay in business then arguing over which console sounds best is stupid. Buy the one that sounds good enough (and they pretty much all do nowadays) and that meets the needs of your clients at a price you can afford.

This.

At the LAB level, a console is a sound tool used to make money.  Buy what is accepted by the majority of users and hire in for the exceptions.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: eric lenasbunt on February 18, 2015, 07:43:37 pm

You need more experience with it then... I would much rather spend the day on a monitors on a Pro2 than an M7 or SC48.  Most people who really hate the Pro2 either had one that was not properly setup or fought it and tried to use it like a Venue console.  Of course if that engineer hates it uses a ton of plugins then he is right... it does really suck for that.  In the last year we have had a ton of people come in and step up to the console dreading it... they usually leave happy.  After you grab the gain and dial it up most people start coming around.  On the flipside setting one up fresh is probably one of the more frustrating experience I have ever had.  Every time I open that patch screen I die a little inside... it has one of the least intuitive patch GUI's ever.  When the console comes out of the box nothing is patched and there are no default scenes.

This is part of my problem with the Pro2, I like how intuitive the patching and setup on the Avid desks is, and I worked on 01v's and LS9's so much I feel I "speak Yamaha" pretty well.

I think I have found my answer, more moving lights it is, people like the shiny objects....
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Tim Padrick on February 23, 2015, 02:56:17 am
I'd rather patch a Pro2 than an X32.  Though I think I prefer the Yamaha matrix patch sheet.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 24, 2015, 07:07:27 am
I'd rather patch a Pro2 than an X32.  Though I think I prefer the Yamaha matrix patch sheet.
Agreed!
I find both the X32 and Midas Pro 2 to be a bit clunky for patching.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Justin Bartlett on February 26, 2015, 05:56:12 pm
You need more experience with it then... I would much rather spend the day on a monitors on a Pro2 than an M7 or SC48.  Most people who really hate the Pro2 either had one that was not properly setup or fought it and tried to use it like a Venue console.  Of course if that engineer hates it uses a ton of plugins then he is right... it does really suck for that.  In the last year we have had a ton of people come in and step up to the console dreading it... they usually leave happy.  After you grab the gain and dial it up most people start coming around.  On the flipside setting one up fresh is probably one of the more frustrating experience I have ever had.  Every time I open that patch screen I die a little inside... it has one of the least intuitive patch GUI's ever.  When the console comes out of the box nothing is patched and there are no default scenes.

I hated the Pro2 the first 3-4 times I used it.  Overall possibly the least-intuitive console on the market right now.  Until you learn it.

I finally went to Midas's training class in Vegas and then spent all last fall on tours with the Pro2C, and now I like them a lot.  I still think they made some odd design choices, and there are a few glitches remaining in the firmware (but a lot less then there used to be), but overall I'm perfectly happy on them now.  Just gotta get past the learning curve.

And yes, the patch screen is the hardest to learn - but I'm even comfortable with that now.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Justin Bartlett on February 26, 2015, 05:56:45 pm
I'd rather patch a Pro2 than an X32.  Though I think I prefer the Yamaha matrix patch sheet.

+1 to all of this.
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Nitin Sidhu on February 27, 2015, 01:30:00 pm
I'd rather patch a Pro2 than an X32.

Seriously to all of this.. Why would would you even compare the two in the same sentence ?

Just the fact that the X32 is compared to a Pro series console (more often that what I would have imagined), goes to say a lot about it.

I dont think the X32 patch is a first thought, the option is there, in a restricted bank of 8 at a deeper level.

Not that I agree with you either which ways, I would rather have a hand that doesn't ache after the patch... :) just saying...
Title: Re: Rider friendly console
Post by: Chris van Kuijeren on March 01, 2015, 05:34:23 am

SC48
Concerned about Avid and the support of this console. Also an aging console. I am thinking it will have 3-5 more years on the b list riders (which is more than my m7 guess). More at the top of my budget but I like the features and I personally love the console.


Thei D-show system is out of sale, but they still give support until the end of 2019 according their own website
http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/faq/End-of-support-dates

An M7CL can be a workhorse but not the best sounding console. If you had to choose i go for a Venue, without a doubt.

The Venue sc48 is in my opinion on of the best consoles out there. Where a Midas console might sound better (talking about their pre-amps) i don't think their compressors sound that good neither do their FX, compared to a Venue.

Besides that, the Venue software is very powerful, they way that they handle snapshots, the integration with plugins, fast patching, plus their Event section makes their software very good. in my humble opnion.