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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Dennis Bokov on January 22, 2015, 02:29:48 am

Title: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on January 22, 2015, 02:29:48 am
Hello,
I am not a sound engineer, so everything i know i am learning from books, blogs and excellent forums like this one. You help will be greatly appreciated.
   We are renting the church right now and inherited the current sound system. Two churches share the PA. I am responsible for the sound reinforcement in our church. The second church (the building owners) gave me a permission to do whatever i want with the PA to make it better.
   The current PA is a complete mess. The way the speakers are hanging right now don't provide enough coverage and therefore enough volume for people sitting on the sides. The front top hanging is a fake array type speaker - TOA HX-5 . They sound pretty unnatural and muffled. Using Smaart transfer function and a 6 band parametric EQ, I was able to make them sound somewhat clear. A cheap EV ZLX speaker though sounds way better right out of the box compared to that EQed TOA speaker. I also believe those TOA speakers are underpowered. The amp for them is Crown CV 1000.
 
   The last seats are about 50 ft from the speakers. Temporarily I installed couple of Yamaha S115v club series speakers to provide enough volume for the rear seats. I understand the locations where they are mounted arenít ideal, but needed a quick solution. I do have a delay on them. Those Yamahas sound pretty good actually. People prefer the rear seats now :)

   The budget is about $9k for speakers, amps, and installation hardware/wiring. Installation will be done by us. It needs to be a versatile system. I am thinking ahead. We may be renting this building for next couple years probably. We are currently saving money to buy our own church. So, preferably we need something that we could use in another building. i realize it might not work for a different building, just keep it in mind when you recommend something.

   The auditorium seats about 350. the width is 65ft. The ceiling is about 23ft high at the peak. This used to be a bowling place, that was converted to a church building.
   The goal is to provide a good coverage for everyone. the SPL is to be between 80-90db. The band plays contemporary type style christian music. They donít play anything above 95db, A measured.

   I recently won 4 JBL Marquis MS112 speakers from a public surplus action for total of $700. Good price for a pro grade install speaker i believe. I was planning to use them as floor monitors. I am planning to buy two Crown XTI2002 amps to power the JBLs. The mixing console is behringer X32.

   Iíve been thinking may be JBLS will work as main speakers? What do you think? is that a good idea? There for the front as Left Center and Right,  and will reuse Yamaha S115V speakers for the second row with delay: Left,Right will be Yamaha and center will be the JBL.  This will save us money, plus i donít really want to get a new speaker system designed for this building and in 2 years move to another where it wonít work.
   Any other suggestions?
   
Title: Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 22, 2015, 07:36:26 am
You first have to use your full real name on this forum to get any responses.

But since you are "halfway there", here is a FIRST question.

What all does your budget need to include?  The whole system (speakers-amps-mixer-mics-monitor etc)? or just the speaker system?

Does it need to include installation numbers?

Figuring out what people have to "work with" goes A LONG way towards getting a real usable answer.
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 22, 2015, 08:53:38 am
Hello,
I am not a sound engineer, so everything i know i am learning from books, blogs and excellent forums like this one. You help will be greatly appreciated.

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on January 22, 2015, 03:43:54 pm

What all does your budget need to include?  The whole system (speakers-amps-mixer-mics-monitor etc)? or just the speaker system?

Does it need to include installation numbers?

The budget is $9000. it should included speaker system only: speakers, amps, sub and installation hardware/wiring. We will be installing it ourselves.
I can use the JBL Marquis MS112 as monitors, if using them as mains not a good idea.
Title: Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 22, 2015, 07:02:24 pm
The budget is $9000. it should included speaker system only: speakers, amps, sub and installation hardware/wiring. We will be installing it ourselves.

Maybe it is me-but I am confused by your statement-you say speaker system only-but the way it is written it appears as if you want to include amps subs and installation as well.

The actual budget for the cabinets could be half if all of the above is to be included. Hence the reason for exactly what is to be included.

If you are going to install it yourself-I CERTAINLY HOPE you have QUALIFIED LOUDSPEAKER INSTALLERS in the "yourself".

REMEMBER-you will be hanging things above peoples heads THAT CAN KILL THEM if they fall.

Does your Church have the proper insurance for such things?

You MUST make SURE that the speakers are rated for flying and have the PROPER hardware to do so.

It would help if you would include some drawings with dimensions (including height of rig points).

Title: Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 22, 2015, 07:08:35 pm
One more thing-who is going to be responsible for proper setup/alignment of the system.

This includes everything from proper level setting-to proper eq/delay setting and limiter setting to help reduce the possibility of failure.

That can make the difference between a system that works well and one that doesn't.

The "local guy in the Church that has a good stereo system", is NOT the guy to do this.

That could take a chunk of the budget as well.

I am not trying to be a "Debbie downer", but rather just pointing out things that need to be considered before making a poor decision based on things you are not aware of
Title: Re: Please help with speaker choice and proper install location!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on January 22, 2015, 09:00:25 pm
Ivan, Thank you for your time responding to this post. I do appreciate it.

Maybe it is me-but I am confused by your statement-you say speaker system only-but the way it is written it appears as if you want to include amps subs and installation as well.

English is my second language, so i may not use the proper terms, but a speaker system to  me means everything that is needed to make the speaker work. it must include amps, wiring, and a sub if needed. Installation is also a part of it. What's the point of the system if its sitting on the floor? I am not a professional installer, so maybe i don't use the right terminology and meaning that you guys are accustom to. Sorry.

If you are going to install it yourself-I CERTAINLY HOPE you have QUALIFIED LOUDSPEAKER INSTALLERS in the "yourself".
REMEMBER-you will be hanging things above peoples heads THAT CAN KILL THEM if they fall.

You MUST make SURE that the speakers are rated for flying and have the PROPER hardware to do so.

I am not dumb. I certainly realize that an installation needs to be safe. I am asking for speaker suggestions that are "flyable" meaning that they are designed to be hang, having proper mounting suspension points. The JBL speakers that i have do have the suspension points. they are designed to be hanged if needed. I will be buying the suspension kit made by JBL specifically for this type of speaker, if i decide to hang them. Most of the manufacturers who sell install speakers also sell necessary hardware for a safe installation and provide diagrams as well.

Do you think I enjoy spending so much time researching and learning about how to install speakers safely? not really, i got a life too. I would rather pay someone like you, a pro installer, if we had budget for that. We are a small congregation and can't afford to pay someone at this time.  I do know a friend of mine who is the professional sound system installer in the area. He is not doing the installation, but agreed to come supervise and verify that its done properly.


One more thing-who is going to be responsible for proper setup/alignment of the system?
I will be responsible for that. I do have some experience with it. My another friend  took the Smaart class in the past and has some experience as well with proper system setup.

It would help if you would include some drawings with dimensions (including height of rig points).

Thank you! looking forward to your suggestions. I will provide a diagram later this week.

What i am actually asking is not how to do an install, but more about 1. What brand and model of speakers can you suggest? and 2. Where will be the best placement of those speakers in the auditorium for the best coverage.
 I've been looking into Turbosound TCX install speakers. We may be able to afford them.
Can you recommend any other speaker brands considering our budget of 9-10k?
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: eric lenasbunt on January 24, 2015, 11:39:01 pm

Ivan, Thank you for your time responding to this post. I do appreciate it.

English is my second language, so i may not use the proper terms, but a speaker system to  me means everything that is needed to make the speaker work. it must include amps, wiring, and a sub if needed. Installation is also a part of it. What's the point of the system if its sitting on the floor? I am not a professional installer, so maybe i don't use the right terminology and meaning that you guys are accustom to. Sorry.

I am not dumb. I certainly realize that an installation needs to be safe. I am asking for speaker suggestions that are "flyable" meaning that they are designed to be hang, having proper mounting suspension points. The JBL speakers that i have do have the suspension points. they are designed to be hanged if needed. I will be buying the suspension kit made by JBL specifically for this type of speaker, if i decide to hang them. Most of the manufacturers who sell install speakers also sell necessary hardware for a safe installation and provide diagrams as well.

Do you think I enjoy spending so much time researching and learning about how to install speakers safely? not really, i got a life too. I would rather pay someone like you, a pro installer, if we had budget for that. We are a small congregation and can't afford to pay someone at this time.  I do know a friend of mine who is the professional sound system installer in the area. He is not doing the installation, but agreed to come supervise and verify that its done properly.

I will be responsible for that. I do have some experience with it. My another friend  took the Smaart class in the past and has some experience as well with proper system setup.

Thank you! looking forward to your suggestions. I will provide a diagram later this week.

What i am actually asking is not how to do an install, but more about 1. What brand and model of speakers can you suggest? and 2. Where will be the best placement of those speakers in the auditorium for the best coverage.
 I've been looking into Turbosound TCX install speakers. We may be able to afford them.
Can you recommend any other speaker brands considering our budget of 9-10k?

Without dimensions and rigging point locations it is tough to recommend anything specific.
JBL, EV, QSC, name a company, they probably have speakers in your budget, but that does not mean they are they right speakers...
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on January 26, 2015, 12:29:56 am
Without dimensions and rigging point locations it is tough to recommend anything specific.
JBL, EV, QSC, name a company, they probably have speakers in your budget, but that does not mean they are they right speakers...

Below is the dimensions diagram and some pictures with the height of the building. the seating area is pretty much a square.
1. Speakers will be hanging about 15ft above.
2. Rigging points can be pretty much anywhere where is a wooden beam (big ones and smaller ones between the big ones), take a look at the pictures below
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on January 26, 2015, 12:37:06 am
The rigging point can be pretty much anywhere. So, Looking at the diagram above and the pictures,
Where do yo think would be the best place to mount the speakers for the best coverage?

What type of speakers would work best for this auditorium?

Any advise is greatly appreciated. Thank!
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 26, 2015, 07:34:35 am


What type of speakers would work best for this auditorium?

I am still a bit confused.  You have speakers you bought-but you are asking about new speakers and have given a budget that includes everything-including labor.

Does this price include selling your old speakers?  Or would that provide additional money?

You have a very limited budget for the job-so it is REAL important for people to know what kind of money is available, or else it is a waste of time doing a design and then being told "That is to expensive".

If your budget is 10K, then you need to go ahead and subtract about 40-50% to account for install-wire-setup.

That leaves about 5K for speakers (and fly hardware) and amps and processing.

That is not a lot to work with.

My suggestion is to simply use what you have as best you can-and save some money to get a real system later on-rather than just "buying some new speakers" and hoping they will do better than what you have.

Your money would be best spent hiring somebody to get the most out of what you already have.
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on January 26, 2015, 10:44:15 am
I am still a bit confused.  You have speakers you bought-but you are asking about new speakers and have given a budget that includes everything-including labor ?

We have 2k more donated towards new speaker system. So, the total budget now is 12k for speakers system.  7k for Speakers only. Amps, fly ware, labor, wiring is not part of 7k.

The jbl speakers were bought to use as floor monitors. And we decided that that's what we will use them for for sure.

Please suggest what type of speakers can work for our auditorium? looking at the diagram, what's the best location to fly them to achieve the best coverage?
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 26, 2015, 01:28:38 pm
We have 2k more donated towards new speaker system. So, the total budget now is 12k for speakers system.  7k for Speakers only. Amps, fly ware, labor, wiring is not part of 7k.

The jbl speakers were bought to use as floor monitors. And we decided that that's what we will use them for for sure.

Please suggest what type of speakers can work for our auditorium? looking at the diagram, what's the best location to fly them to achieve the best coverage?
I would put a wide coverage (90į or so) loudspeaker just in front of the pulpit and aimed at the furthest rear seat.

Then 2 (one each side) speakers off to the sides for the seats down front on the left and right.

The center speaker needs to be full range-while the ones on the side don't need to go as low-since the main speaker will have lost pattern control down at the lower freq and the side ones need to be highpassed there so they don't interfere with the main speaker.
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 26, 2015, 01:35:37 pm
I would put a wide coverage (90į or so) loudspeaker just in front of the pulpit and aimed at the furthest rear seat.

Then 2 (one each side) speakers off to the sides for the seats down front on the left and right.

The center speaker needs to be full range-while the ones on the side don't need to go as low-since the main speaker will have lost pattern control down at the lower freq and the side ones need to be highpassed there so they don't interfere with the main speaker.

Seconded.  However...

I'll reiterate the absolute necessity of involving (hiring) an experienced professional with credentials and a proven track record to supervise and set up the room.  Anyone with money can buy a Stradivarius, but it takes a trained operator to use it.  You'll need to have the best speaker for your application and the correct setup/tuning to be able to use it and learn what you need to do to get the mix you need. 

An un-tuned system canl render your mixer controls less effective or less than effective. 
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on January 26, 2015, 04:00:45 pm
I would put a wide coverage (90į or so) loudspeaker just in front of the pulpit and aimed at the furthest rear seat.

Then 2 (one each side) speakers off to the sides for the seats down front on the left and right.

The center speaker needs to be full range-while the ones on the side don't need to go as low-since the main speaker will have lost pattern control down at the lower freq and the side ones need to be highpassed there so they don't interfere with the main speaker.

 Thank you for your response, Ivan. Just to clarify,

So, total of 3 speakers ? One center and two side fills, if I understood it correctly. Will that be enough to cover all 62ft in length with fairly even  spl , (goal is < 6 db difference front to back)? Or should we add second row fill in speakers, delayed? 
I am concerned about front rows being too loud, vs rear row. I think the center speaker might not be high enough, (15ft-16ft) to achieve an even loudness between front and back rows.
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 26, 2015, 05:22:34 pm
Thank you for your response, Ivan. Just to clarify,

So, total of 3 speakers ? One center and two side fills, if I understood it correctly. Will that be enough to cover all 62ft in length with fairly even  spl , (goal is < 6 db difference front to back)? Or should we add second row fill in speakers, delayed? 
I am concerned about front rows being too loud, vs rear row. I think the center speaker might not be high enough, (15ft-16ft) to achieve an even loudness between front and back rows.
This is where pattern control is a good thing-it helps to reduce the levels up front.

But speakers with pattern control down to a decent low freq are not cheap and will not fit your budget

If you simply "start adding more speakers" you are introducing all sorts of "problems" in to the room.  Since the budget is not high-more speakers for the same amount of money means cheaper speakers-that generally offer lower sound quality, less pattern control etc.

You will end up "spraying sound" all over the room.  So while the SPL level may be more even the overall sound QUALITY will be lower.

Everything is a compromise.

And if even SPL is the main goal-where were you going to put the subs to get even sub energy in the room? 

That is a whole different set of problems.

The main goal should be BALANCE-not just SPL
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Craig Hamilton on January 28, 2015, 03:20:09 pm
Everything in audio is generally a compromise. The perfect scenario for quality is a single point source so there is no interference between multiple sources. The best for loudness is even distance from the source to all listeners. Given the limitations of budget and the existing space, for quality you want to minimize the number of sources per listener but you wil need at least one set of delay speakers to control the loudness from front to back.

My only other choice would be a front mono cluster and another cluster half way down the room, thus to stay away from the duct and place the speakers higher to lessen the difference in distance between the nearest and furthest listener.

My attempt at a solution.

Looking at your photos, the current delay speakers are decently located front to back but they are too high and buried behind the lights and the air duct and possibly a little bit too far forward. I would hang 2 new speakers at the front of the room right where the current ones are as their location looks good. I would hang a second pair just forward of the peak in the main beams and just below the air duct so there is no blockage of the coverage pattern.

This should break the room up into 4 seperate quarters, each being covered by one main speaker. I see this as the best compromise of point source vs SPL. Use an installation speaker with a fairly wide coverage pattern but verify you won't wash the side walls too much. I'm thinking a speaker with a 100 degree nominal pattern such as the install version of a QSC K10 or equivalent might work well.
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on January 28, 2015, 03:55:33 pm
Craig Hamilton thank you for your valuable reply!

As you said, and I agree, everything is compromise in audio. we just need to find the best one.
The room ideally needs some treatment, but the owners of the building who also have their church services in the same room don't want to do anything due to primarily money issues.

I have done speakers set up in other rooms/ churches in the past splitting a long room in 4 clusters, and it worked well in terms of even coverage. I have no experience with center clusters though. I do like the center cluster idea, but need some more details about type of speakers that go into the cluster and their nominal coverage pattern. Basically, I need some education how to splay speakers properly minimizing comb filtering effect.

Would a center cluster consist of 3 speakers with 60 degree pattern each? Is combining two 85 degree speakers in the cluster of two a good idea?
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 29, 2015, 12:02:03 pm
Craig Hamilton thank you for your valuable reply!

As you said, and I agree, everything is compromise in audio. we just need to find the best one.
The room ideally needs some treatment, but the owners of the building who also have their church services in the same room don't want to do anything due to primarily money issues.

I have done speakers set up in other rooms/ churches in the past splitting a long room in 4 clusters, and it worked well in terms of even coverage. I have no experience with center clusters though. I do like the center cluster idea, but need some more details about type of speakers that go into the cluster and their nominal coverage pattern. Basically, I need some education how to splay speakers properly minimizing comb filtering effect.

Would a center cluster consist of 3 speakers with 60 degree pattern each? Is combining two 85 degree speakers in the cluster of two a good idea?
The problem with putting 3 speakers together (ASSUMING they will actually array well-most don't-despite the marketing) is that when you tilt the cluster down-only the one in the middle actually goes down.

The ones on the side just kind of "rotate" and point at the walls and not the floor.

I like to us a single wide coverage speaker for the center (typically 90į).

The ones on the side will depend on the actual room -position etc.

But putting the speakers to the sides there is less lobing directly under the center cluster (the lobing reduces gain before feedback).

Generally the center speaker is a full range device while the ones on the side do not need as much low freq (because that is already coming out of the center speaker really wide.  So they are highpass where they need to be to integrate with the "spill" from the main speaker.
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on February 02, 2015, 01:15:31 am
I like to us a single wide coverage speaker for the center (typically 90į).
The ones on the side will depend on the actual room -position etc.

A rough sketch of a possible speaker position according to your suggestion. Center is 90 degree coverage and side fills are at 60 degree. How far down or up would you place the side speakers? it seems to that not all the seats will get a good coverage upfront .
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on February 02, 2015, 01:23:52 am

My only other choice would be a front mono cluster and another cluster half way down the room, thus to stay away from the duct and place the speakers higher to lessen the difference in distance between the nearest and furthest listener.
Here is my attempt to place a two speaker cluster on the diagram like you described is below. Due to astatic reasons i believe the front center cluster won't be approved by the church board. 
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on February 02, 2015, 01:32:00 am
Looking at your photos, the current delay speakers are decently located front to back but they are too high and buried behind the lights and the air duct and possibly a little bit too far forward. I would hang 2 new speakers at the front of the room right where the current ones are as their location looks good. I would hang a second pair just forward of the peak in the main beams and just below the air duct so there is no blockage of the coverage pattern.

This should break the room up into 4 seperate quarters, each being covered by one main speaker. I see this as the best compromise of point source vs SPL. Use an installation speaker with a fairly wide coverage pattern but verify you won't wash the side walls too much. I'm thinking a speaker with a 100 degree nominal pattern such as the install version of a QSC K10 or equivalent might work well.

Here is the diagram below. Did i place the speakers correctely according to your suggestion?
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on February 02, 2015, 01:38:36 am
Here is another possible speaker position that appears to provide good coverage. it says 85 degree on the angle, because i was thinking about the JBL Marquis MS112 speakers that i have. They are 85x85 nominal coverage down to 500z. The two speaker in the cluster are splayed at 70 degrees. I was just playing around to see how will it look on the graph.

Is it a good idea to place it like that?
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Dennis Bokov on February 02, 2015, 01:47:54 am
The front center cluster won't work due to the air duct on the left that will be blocking much of the left speaker. I can't hang the cluster lower to clear the speaker from the duct due to "beauty" reasons. Pastor doesn't like it to be so low.

Looking at all the diagrams above, which one do you think is the best compromise to achieve the best coverage?

Let's talk only about the speaker placement locations for optimal balanced coverage. Remember, the speaker system rigging and tuning is not part of this discussion for now.

thank you for your time for thinking and posting your response!
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 02, 2015, 07:36:21 am
A rough sketch of a possible speaker position according to your suggestion. Center is 90 degree coverage and side fills are at 60 degree. How far down or up would you place the side speakers? it seems to that not all the seats will get a good coverage upfront .
That is not what I meant.

The side speakers should be to the sides of the main and pointed down and towards the walls.

This helps to maintain the "expanding wavefront" of the center speaker.

When you have patterns that start to go in different directions (as shown) you start having all sorts of interference.

Think of it as pebbles in a pond, you want the main ripple to be continued-not interfered with.
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 02, 2015, 07:38:15 am
Here is another possible speaker position that appears to provide good coverage. it says 85 degree on the angle, because i was thinking about the JBL Marquis MS112 speakers that i have. They are 85x85 nominal coverage down to 500z. The two speaker in the cluster are splayed at 70 degrees. I was just playing around to see how will it look on the graph.

Is it a good idea to place it like that?
In the middle of the room you will have all kinds of interference-because you have 2 sources arriving at different times.

Drop 2 pebbles in a pond spaced like you have them and look at the ripples and see what happens. 

It gets  ugly when the ripples start to meet.
Title: Re: Help with speaker choice and install location to achieve best coverage!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 02, 2015, 07:44:20 am
Due to astatic reasons i believe the front center cluster won't be approved by the church board.
And that is EXACTLY WHY it is important to disclose such things as "where we are not allowed to put the speakers" up front-so people do not wasted time working on a design that will not be approved.

Sometimes the customer makes it REAL HARD to put a workable system into a room because of the "looks".

It's funny how they can put lights everywhere, but not speakers-------