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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: MIKE Lynn on January 13, 2015, 01:43:57 pm

Title: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: MIKE Lynn on January 13, 2015, 01:43:57 pm
   Had to post this up , Alto Professional now has a line array rig at low cost I think they see what seismic is doing and want to make some money too. I Wonder what they sound like ? They have a 7.5 Degree vertical dispersion, unlike the seismic having a 50 degree vertical pattern it would qualifiy as a tru line array box. 
SO Whats next the Presonus Line array ? 
BTW seismic audio is acutally selling alot of their SALa 210 boxes they cant keep them in stock I think their is a hungry low budgeted market that wants to have line arrays they just dont have the money for the real stuff. The alto boxes may doo good sales in the low budget market. I wonder what they sound like ?
I have heard the seismic now and they dont sound verry good, they need a bunch of DSP to make them sound like a mid grade peavy box, But they are loud, but make sure you dont play them below 100Hz they will start to snap or bottom out.   

http://www.altoproaudio.com/products/sxa28p
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 13, 2015, 02:29:20 pm
   Had to post this up , Alto Professional now has a line array rig at low cost I think they see what seismic is doing and want to make some money too. I Wonder what they sound like ? They have a 7.5 Degree vertical dispersion, unlike the seismic having a 50 degree vertical pattern it would qualifiy as a tru line array box. 
SO Whats next the Presonus Line array ? 
BTW seismic audio is acutally selling alot of their SALa 210 boxes they cant keep them in stock I think their is a hungry low budgeted market that wants to have line arrays they just dont have the money for the real stuff. The alto boxes may doo good sales in the low budget market. I wonder what they sound like ?
I have heard the seismic now and they dont sound verry good, they need a bunch of DSP to make them sound like a mid grade peavy box, But they are loud, but make sure you dont play them below 100Hz they will start to snap or bottom out.   

http://www.altoproaudio.com/products/sxa28p

The Altos has been around awhile, just have not seen any in the wild.  It makes more sense than the Seismic, that you can't even create an array with.

Also, where did you hear that Seismic could not keep them in stock.  Their own blog admitted they did one test run, looks like they finally sold all but one box.  Interesting to see if they restock.  Not one review of them online.

Never hear a ground stacked line array that sounds better than a proper point source so not sure where the fascination with the form factor comes from.   For some odd reason line array's seem to communicate prestige and professionalism.  Guess that's worth something.

Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Thomas Le on January 13, 2015, 02:35:03 pm
This guy seems happy with it even though he has 3 per side...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204623130556882&set=a.1390541202241.2050184.1193456596&type=1
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: John L Nobile on January 13, 2015, 02:39:31 pm
Here's a comment from that site

"Bet them sum bitches are loud as f#%k!"

Now that's a review!
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Richard Turner on January 13, 2015, 02:52:11 pm
The "rigging" on that facebook pic makes me cringe. Is that a harbor freight winch? You know the one with the 1/8" spring loaded pin being all that holds the drum from unwinding?
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 13, 2015, 02:54:16 pm
This guy seems happy with it even though he has 3 per side...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204623130556882&set=a.1390541202241.2050184.1193456596&type=1

Wow that rig job is nothing short of scary.

That's a single steel line on what looks like a truck winch from Harbor Freight.

Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Thomas Le on January 13, 2015, 02:58:43 pm
Here's another one from the same guy:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204670357777533&set=pcb.10204670358457550&type=1&permPage=1
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Rick Earl on January 13, 2015, 03:04:26 pm

SO Whats next the Presonus Line array ? 


http://www.worxaudio.com/ (http://www.worxaudio.com/)
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 13, 2015, 03:41:05 pm
Here's a comment from that site

"Bet them sum bitches are loud as f#%k!"

Now that's a review!

"With the ability to handle 400 watts Continuous, 800 watts Program or 1600 watts Peak, the SXA28p is ideal for high-powered amps and offers clean, uncolored sound for any venue. Capable of delivering 125 dB Peak SPL."

As long as 122 dB continuous is considered loud.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 13, 2015, 03:44:22 pm
Wow that rig job is nothing short of scary.

That's a single steel line on what looks like a truck winch from Harbor Freight.



And held up by lighting tripods. Run, run very fast.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on January 13, 2015, 03:57:40 pm
Wow that rig job is nothing short of scary.

That's a single steel line on what looks like a truck winch from Harbor Freight.

I have never done any rigging/flying of speakers before and even I thought it looked dodgy as.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 13, 2015, 04:55:46 pm
Here's another one from the same guy:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204670357777533&set=pcb.10204670358457550&type=1&permPage=1

Arbitrary posts from facebook are not really the professional review most reader expect to find here.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Thomas Le on January 13, 2015, 05:43:45 pm

Arbitrary posts from facebook are not really the professional review most reader expect to find here.

Considering that it's the lounge, at least we know it's in the wild as bad it may be.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 13, 2015, 06:13:14 pm
Considering that it's the lounge, at least we know it's in the wild as bad it may be.

The reason we have a real name policy in these forums is so when someone makes a claim they are backing it up with their own credibility. There is no such link in a facebook post. Linking to a facebook post has no value here.

Mac
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 13, 2015, 07:26:14 pm
Never hear a ground stacked line array that sounds better than a proper point source so not sure where the fascination with the form factor comes from. 

Well, it also depends on what goes you're comparing. I changed one event's rig this year from 2/side SRX725 to 4/side VT4888. The 725s were just plain running out of steam, so having the larger stacks and higher output was a major night and day difference.

For some odd reason line array's seem to communicate prestige and professionalism.  Guess that's worth something.

Odd reason? There's a knowledge leap that has to be made (well, should be made… seems a lot of people skip that step!) when moving to a line array based system-- predictions of coverage, rigging principles, etc, and as it can't be done by just one person, you move to full crew requirements. Less prestige, though, and just more professional-- I can be a sole operator, just fine, to a certain point, but then when I need to find/hire/retain qualified technicians as well, that does show that a company is in it for the long haul as opposed to being a fly by night outfit.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 13, 2015, 11:14:22 pm
Here's another one from the same guy:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204670357777533&set=pcb.10204670358457550&type=1&permPage=1

Yes I went to his page with the same fascination one looks at a car accident.

Granted I don't do much hotel work but I have never seen winches built into the ceiling like that.  It doesn't give you any way for a safety cable with a single load line.

Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on January 14, 2015, 12:43:26 am
"Interesting rigging", to say the least. As to the hotel picture, I have to give the guy a bit of credit for finding a creative way to run GAC down through a suspended ceiling without poking holes. Who knows what sort of steel he has tied to as a pick point. The other picture shows what looks like a chunk of steel I-beam (raised on what kinda look like ST-132 lifts).  The bridle angles on the zinc plated chain scare me big time (not to mention the slack on some of the bridle legs....)  Mark C.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Richard Turner on January 14, 2015, 01:40:52 am
sad fact is he could have had some rated cabled from fasenal or acklands-grainger for about the same price as that hardware store chain. Picture is blurry but it looks like he twisted the chain to shorten it.

Also looks like he bought another 6 and went with the M-32
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on January 14, 2015, 02:17:40 am
The bridle angles on the zinc plated chain scare me big time Mark C.

From a climbing point of view, that was the first thing I noticed as well (A lot of inwards force on the flying frame).
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: John L Nobile on January 14, 2015, 08:51:24 am
Do you think that might be an in house fly point? And would that system work better if they were toed in a bit? I haven't heard them so I'll assume that they sound ok. But I'm optimistic.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 14, 2015, 11:22:09 am
Depends on the hotel, of course, but generally, if hotels have appropriate rigging points, they're going to want either their in-house people, or a rigger of their approval to do the work. A rigger worth his salt isn't going to set up a system unless he's confident it's safe. Hotels aren't generally going to want an unsafe suspension system deployed in their ballrooms, mainly for liability reasons, but they'll also look stupid if it all fails.

I suspect that the hotel has rigging points that were utilized in flying this system. However, who knows about the hoists. Haha.

Looking through the pictures on that dude's Facebook, sounds like he has one (ore more SC48s) and the M32 is an addition to his inventory-- since SC48s aren't exactly a bottom feeder board, perhaps one of you kids with a Facebook account could invite the guy to PSW. Worse case, we get another contributing member, but best case, we can hear, first hand, "from the horse's mouth" how the audio quality of these Seismic Audio boxes is. I mean, he bought six, and presumably they sound good enough to him (and his clients) that he has purchased six more.

Then we can offer critique on safe rigging practices... haha. Or, he'll have more/better photos to show what he's doing. Win-win overall, if you ask me.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: MIKE Lynn on January 14, 2015, 01:30:09 pm
This guy seems happy with it even though he has 3 per side...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204623130556882&set=a.1390541202241.2050184.1193456596&type=1


WOW thats scary
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: MIKE Lynn on January 14, 2015, 01:35:55 pm

Also, where did you hear that Seismic could not keep them in stock.  Their own blog admitted they did one test run, looks like they finally sold all but one box.  Interesting to see if they restock.  Not one review of them online.


A friend of mine bought 2 to test them out , Like I said above , they sound Ok , (Like a Mid grade Peavey) with A bunch of procesing. The first 2 he ordered were out of that first batch they got, they sould out quick within a week of going on sale. After my friend got them he liked them enough that he wanted 2 more so hes been watching to see whaen they came back in stock , checking on ocasion  and they did get them back in but by the time he went to order the pair they only had 1 left , and he had to wait 2 months for another shipment to come in to get the  other. After he bought it he checked back and they we sold out again by the end of that week so they are moving some product.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 14, 2015, 01:57:41 pm
A friend of mine bought 2 to test them out , Like I said above , they sound Ok , (Like a Mid grade Peavey) with A bunch of procesing. The first 2 he ordered were out of that first batch they got, they sould out quick within a week of going on sale. After my friend got them he liked them enough that he wanted 2 more so hes been watching to see whaen they came back in stock , checking on ocasion  and they did get them back in but by the time he went to order the pair they only had 1 left , and he had to wait 2 months for another shipment to come in to get the  other. After he bought it he checked back and they we sold out again by the end of that week so they are moving some product.

A couple of boxes does not make a line array-it is just a couple of boxes stacked together.

Things start to change when you do things right or the way they were intended to be used.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Jason Lavoie on January 14, 2015, 02:32:09 pm

WOW thats scary

Scary rigging aside, that seems like a lot of effort to get the speakers up just a *bit* higher than stacking them on some subs.

Jason
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Scott Holtzman on January 14, 2015, 05:53:37 pm
Scary rigging aside, that seems like a lot of effort to get the speakers up just a *bit* higher than stacking them on some subs.

Jason

Damn ugly too with the unsupported feed going to it with a single pick.

Must be his mother that posted Wow under the photo.

Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: MIKE Lynn on January 16, 2015, 09:07:40 am
A couple of boxes does not make a line array-it is just a couple of boxes stacked together.

Things start to change when you do things right or the way they were intended to be used.

  A Box with a 50 degree vertical dispersion isnt a line array box to begin with I would consider it a flown point source box. so when we rig the 2 together we hav 90Hx100V but the box isn cut on a 50 degee angle anyway so no matter what your going to have veritcal comb filtering going on. Its a flyable point source box that looks like a line array. Two of these boxes , 1 per side isnt much differnt (in terms of dispersion) than say using  JBL SR 4726 that has a 90x50 pattern. By rigging 6 together it should  theoretically sound worse because of vertical comb filtering. Would you stack 6 JBL SR 4726 boxes and expect it to sound better because you used more ? 
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Steve M Smith on January 16, 2015, 10:38:41 am
Scary rigging aside, that seems like a lot of effort to get the speakers up just a *bit* higher than stacking them on some subs.


I was thinking exactly the same thing. 


Steve.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 16, 2015, 11:28:38 am

I was thinking exactly the same thing. 

Steve.

If I gathered correctly from his spacebook page, apparently, that room is his "living room" at his house, where he's got a bunch of stuff setup all the time, and his friends can come and jam and such. So I THINK that's "brand new gear, let's set it up and plug it in and see how it sounds" playing around.

-Ray
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Chris Burns on January 18, 2015, 12:44:38 pm
I called Seismic twice, more out of curiosity and asked both times if their literature or marketing was wrong, as the vertical disp read 50 degrees. Both times I spoke to the same man, discussed comb filtering, etc and in both instances he couldn't answer the question. Answer both times: "well guy were selling a lot of them so they must sound good.  " I was looking around at some drivers, horns etc for a possible DIY point source box project, and came across PVR Drivers of Brazil. The horn in the Seismic is identical to a horn they advertise as "line array" but has indeed a 90x50 dispersion. They have a DIY LA box design on there too, twin 10" woofers and a 1.4" comp driver on a point source horn. Looks almost identical to the Seismic.

The alto may be a step above, seems the design theory is at least sound.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 18, 2015, 01:08:44 pm
" I was looking around at some drivers, horns etc for a possible DIY point source box project, and came across PVR Drivers of Brazil.
I ordered 4 PVR HF drivers for a "project" .

They were WITHOUT A DOUBT-the BIGGEST piece of crap drivers I have EVER run across in my almost 40yrs in this business.

No two of them were even close to the same sound-so I measured them and found over a 20dB difference in some cases.

So I took them apart and the construction appeared to be pretty decent, but what I found was that there was no way  to line the diaphragm up in the magnetic gap.  The top and bottom outer housing just "moved around" and the diaphragm just floated in between them.

You could get an alignment (and closer sound quality) if you were to hand tune them by looking at the measurements and then tighten down the screws holding the back and front together.

But a replacement would have to be done the same way.

I don't know about the rest of their products-but after seeing those-I have no reason to even consider anything else they make.

Other peoples experience may be different-but that is mine.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Chris Burns on January 19, 2015, 07:13:56 pm
Sounds right- and I'm convinced this is the supplier of the build for Seismic.  Could be wrong, but unless it's a case of same crap out of one Chinese factory, I'd say the "line array horn" they sell with a 50 degree Vert coverage is the same one.

I still can't get over "well we're sell a lot of them so they have to work".  Can someone buy  a bunch and run some tests, just for entertainment purposes? Please?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 19, 2015, 09:15:59 pm
Sounds right- and I'm convinced this is the supplier of the build for Seismic.  Could be wrong, but unless it's a case of same crap out of one Chinese factory, I'd say the "line array horn" they sell with a 50 degree Vert coverage is the same one.

I still can't get over "well we're sell a lot of them so they have to work".  Can someone buy  a bunch and run some tests, just for entertainment purposes? Please?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wouldn't spend that much to have a bonfire.  Seriously.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 19, 2015, 10:25:36 pm
Well if one of you kiddos with the Facebook wants to invite that guy to join the forum, I think it would be beneficial. If someone is near to him, perhaps they can swing by and get some SMAART readings for us. Then we could see some actual data, since apparently SA doesn't need to go through that much trouble... (I can see the phone call now...: "SMAART? Yeah, I'd like to think I'm pretty intelligent, why do you ask?")

But he's bought six, and then six more-- either he's a glorified DJ and doesn't know better, or they're doing OK for him. I would like to think that if he's got a couple of SC48s, he's more then a basic DJ setup, and may have even already done some measurements that he can share with us.

-Ray
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 20, 2015, 07:44:08 am
Well if one of you kiddos with the Facebook wants to invite that guy to join the forum, I think it would be beneficial. If someone is near to him, perhaps they can swing by and get some SMAART readings for us. Then we could see some actual data, since apparently SA doesn't need to go through that much trouble... (I can see the phone call now...: "SMAART? Yeah, I'd like to think I'm pretty intelligent, why do you ask?")


The problem is that many people think a simple "smaart" response is all there is.

That is just ONE of the many things that makes a product "work" or not.

The biggest issue with line arrays or any set of boxes that are put next to each other to "attempt to work" is not just a simple freq response at some point-but RATHER the whole balloon of coverage over a wide range of freq.  Ie POLAR DATA.

That is A LOT harder to gather-is not quick-is subject to a lot of variables and such-but provides information that gives a much better idea of what is happening overall-than a simple on axis freq response measurement.

It takes more knowledge-better test facilities-better programs and such.

That is why you don't see people jumping up and down to do do polar data for somebody.

It is also the reason it costs lots of money to get polar data.

And when you start talking more than one box-MOST (not all)) manufacturers do not actually measure multiple box setups (for good reason ;)  ), they measure a single box and then use modeling and "manipulation" to arrive at the multibox "measurement" in their models.

The result is very different-so you have to be careful.

How to actually sum the boxes in a model, is a subject of GREAT debate in the measurement community.

The only way to get the REAL result is to actually measure a multibox setup as a single unit.  But most don't want to do that-because it is not as "pretty" as what they can change and put in the model to show the customer----------------------

You can't HANDLE the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ray Aberle on January 20, 2015, 10:29:35 am
But it would give us a place to start. We're all jumping over the Seismic Audio boxes, yet we've not heard them at all. And this guy had six, and bought six more-- so he's happy, and more importantly, his clients are happy to pay for it.

I just think a real world experience would be nice to hear about.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Robert Patch on January 20, 2015, 12:13:54 pm
The biggest issue with line arrays or any set of boxes that are put next to each other to "attempt to work" is not just a simple freq response at some point-but RATHER the whole balloon of coverage over a wide range of freq.  Ie POLAR DATA.

Hopefully, some day most speaker manufacturers will supply Common Loudspeaker Format data.  Life would be much easier.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 20, 2015, 12:43:53 pm
Hopefully, some day most speaker manufacturers will supply Common Loudspeaker Format data.  Life would be much easier.
What is surprising is the number of manufacturers who don't even supply a simple freq response curve.

Much less, data that you can model with.

But people keep buying them.

I guess it just depends on what is important to you and your customers.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Jason Joseph on January 20, 2015, 03:19:08 pm
http://www.worxaudio.com/ (http://www.worxaudio.com/)

That does look kinda interesting..

(http://www.worxaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/X31-886x1024.jpg?v5)
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 20, 2015, 04:03:17 pm
What is surprising is the number of manufacturers who don't even supply a simple freq response curve.


I guess it just depends on what is important to you and your customers.
You should look at car audio speakers!
Talk about no data.... ::)
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Robert Patch on January 20, 2015, 09:06:03 pm
What is surprising is the number of manufacturers who don't even supply a simple freq response curve.

Much less, data that you can model with.

But people keep buying them.

I guess it just depends on what is important to you and your customers.

I think it's a fundamental lack of understanding.  It's a long way from, "how do I plug this thing in" to "how do I make comb filtering more palatable".  Lord only knows it has not been easy for me.  You're not really going to learn this stuff by reading forums (for the most part).

It's not like there is any union apprenticeship program for sound engineers.  You don't have levels of licensure like for plumbers.  There's no journeyman or master sound guy designation.  All you need is your Fender Passport and the nerve to call yourself a sound guy.

Sorry for wandering off topic.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 21, 2015, 08:24:18 pm
That does look kinda interesting..

(http://www.worxaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/X31-886x1024.jpg?v5)


They sound good too. Probably my favorite "little guy" LA system. Worx doesn't have the R&D dollars that the big boys have, yet he's created a pretty workable system using simple physics. ie. "get all the outputs real close to each other before they exit the box"....
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 22, 2015, 01:40:18 am
IIRC, Worx used to be WoodWorx Audio in Greensboro, NC.  They've made a lot of sawdust over the decades and built some interesting loudspeakers.  They had a really kick-ass sub "way back when" that was in the ShowCo Prism Sub class.  About as big, just as heavy, and capable of pounding your dental work.  They've done a ton of custom stuff for houses of worship and public facilities, too.

Edit to correct city name.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 22, 2015, 07:31:04 am
IIRC, Worx used to be WoodWorx Audio in Charlotte, NC.  They've made a lot of sawdust over the decades and built some interesting loudspeakers.  They had a really kick-ass sub "way back when" that was in the ShowCo Prism Sub class.  About as big, just as heavy, and capable of pounding your dental work.  They've done a ton of custom stuff for houses of worship and public facilities, too.
I thought they were out of Greensboro NC.

I remember going to Reliable Music in Charlotte (back in the late 70s/80s) and seeing their cabinets and wishing I could afford them.  I didn't have any money-so I started building my own.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 22, 2015, 09:45:32 am
I thought they were out of Greensboro NC.

I remember going to Reliable Music in Charlotte (back in the late 70s/80s) and seeing their cabinets and wishing I could afford them.  I didn't have any money-so I started building my own.
Oops, you're right about G'boro.  It's been too long.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Rick Powell on January 22, 2015, 11:42:52 am
I thought they were out of Greensboro NC.

I remember going to Reliable Music in Charlotte (back in the late 70s/80s) and seeing their cabinets and wishing I could afford them.  I didn't have any money-so I started building my own.

http://www.woodbox-tech.com/About.asp

Apparently there is an offshoot of the former "Woodworx" that now it calls itself "Woodbox" and has some designs that appear to be direct copies of EAW designs.

Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 22, 2015, 12:15:53 pm
http://www.woodbox-tech.com/About.asp

Apparently there is an offshoot of the former "Woodworx" that now it calls itself "Woodbox" and has some designs that appear to be direct copies of EAW designs.
And the spec sheets have exactly the same layout as EAW as well.

Kinda reminds me of the old Peavey vs Earth sound issues.

Not only did Earth copy the Peavey exactly-but also use much of the same visual look in catalogs and spec sheets. 

I have evidence of this in my collection of old cataolgs/brochures

It is amazing what some people will do.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Stu McDoniel on January 25, 2015, 09:34:39 pm
http://www.woodbox-tech.com/About.asp

Apparently there is an offshoot of the former "Woodworx" that now it calls itself "Woodbox" and has some designs that appear to be direct copies of EAW designs.
Really? Wow...that is clear as day EAW copy.
Is this for real?  This not China?
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 26, 2015, 12:27:31 am
Whoever designed their website should be shot as well....


If Worx, Woodworx, and Woodbox ever were the same company, I'm pretty sure that it is no longer the case. Hugh Sarvis is the guy that designs and demos these boxes now, and none of the Worx boxes I've seen were copies of anything else....
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Doug Fowler on January 26, 2015, 02:48:35 pm
Whoever designed their website should be shot as well....


If Worx, Woodworx, and Woodbox ever were the same company, I'm pretty sure that it is no longer the case. Hugh Sarvis is the guy that designs and demos these boxes now, and none of the Worx boxes I've seen were copies of anything else....

Yeah, Hugh is a good guy.  They have been successful regionally in the HOW market. 
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Sean Stephens on May 23, 2015, 03:36:39 am
I plan on buying 4 boxes within a month to start and see if i like them.  Its $2100, I'll either get some speakers that sound ok, mainly for the larger outdoor events, or I try and return them or sell on eBay if they are crap.  After that I'll go from there.  If they are good maybe I'll buy more.  Really its the interest thats driving me to purchase them.  I'll upload a video upon arrival with a review.  Ill try to take some smaart readings and post also. 
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: David Hayes on May 23, 2015, 07:58:51 am
Ok, please forgive me if I'm stepping on my $#*^ here.  I am not even close to the same league as you guys when you start talking about all this stuff and I have zero knowledge about flown line arrays, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, aren't SA pretty much the bottom of the barrel?  I started out with a pair of their 12'' 2 way tops and man they were junk.  And Alto?  Maybe not bottom of the barrel but certainly these are near the bottom aren't they?  I use TS112As for monitors but I would never subject an audience to them.   Someone "Corrected" me the other day when I said Peavey made middle of the road, low rent stuff. Is it the same deal?  Do Alto and Seismic Audio have high end lines that actually aren't junk?
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 23, 2015, 09:47:49 am
Do Alto and Seismic Audio have high end lines that actually aren't junk?

I've not used Alto gear myself, but I BELIEVE that there are people on here that have used some of their gear and been happy for the quality at the price point. Seismic Audio, not so much.

I plan on buying 4 boxes within a month to start and see if i like them. Its $2100, I'll either get some speakers that sound ok, mainly for the larger outdoor events, or I try and return them or sell on eBay if they are crap.  After that I'll go from there.  If they are good maybe I'll buy more.  Really its the interest thats driving me to purchase them.  I'll upload a video upon arrival with a review.  Ill try to take some smaart readings and post also. 

Sean, not sure if you're referring to the Seismic boxes, or the Alto ones; but according to the OP about Alto:

Quote from: OP
Had to post this up , Alto Professional now has a line array rig at low cost I think they see what seismic is doing and want to make some money too. I Wonder what they sound like ? They have a 7.5 Degree vertical dispersion, unlike the seismic having a 50 degree vertical pattern it would qualifiy as a tru line array box. 

Two boxes of Alto per side would only be 15° vertical coverage. The trick with any line array or constant curvature rig, especially for your needs of larger outdoor events, is that you cannot buy them on the Box A Month plan. If you start small (Not Enough Rig For The Gig)... well, you will find it difficult to get more gigs to pay for these additional boxes if you aren't able to provide properly for the gigs now. Clients don't want to hear "Well, it sounds bad now, but once you've hired me for more shows, I'll have the money to buy enough speakers to do your event properly..." Trust me. There won't be more shows.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 23, 2015, 09:49:34 am
  I use "XYZ speakers" for monitors but I would never subject an audience to them. 

I find this statement really funny.  But funny is a sad way because of how true it is in many cases.

People will often put lots of money in the PA, and then "whatever is left" gets spent on the monitors.  ESPECIALLY in the install world.

"OH-it's just monitors for the band-----"

But should it not be the other way around???????????

Who are the pickiest people?  The MUSICIANS!!!  Yet they get the "cheapest thing we can get away with".

You don't want to "subject a drunk non caring audience" to the sound-but yet for the people actually MAKING the music-it is fine?

Not picking on you-it happens all the time.

It just seems backwards to me-that is all.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 23, 2015, 09:58:03 am
I
Two boxes of Alto per side would only be 15° vertical coverage.
Let's assume the boxes (ANY BRAND OR MODEL NUMBER) are rated at 7.5* each.

And if the horn exit is 12" tall (I have no idea-just a guess there), then it would only be 7.5 down to 11KHZ.  Below that the pattern starts to widen up.

Most people/systems are "gone" by 11Khz anyway.  So what people "think" is a particular pattern is not even close-at least at the freq that they are interested in.

A small narrow horn (no matter HOW MUCH people want to believe it) simply does NOT have pattern control down very low.

So what they "think" they are getting is VERY different (at least in the freq range of interest) than what is REALLY happening or what the spec sheet would lead them to believe.

The basic physics still works :)
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: John L Nobile on May 23, 2015, 10:15:21 am
I find this statement really funny.  But funny is a sad way because of how true it is in many cases.

People will often put lots of money in the PA, and then "whatever is left" gets spent on the monitors.  ESPECIALLY in the install world.

"OH-it's just monitors for the band-----"

But should it not be the other way around???????????

Who are the pickiest people?  The MUSICIANS!!!  Yet they get the "cheapest thing we can get away with".

You don't want to "subject a drunk non caring audience" to the sound-but yet for the people actually MAKING the music-it is fine?

Not picking on you-it happens all the time.

It just seems backwards to me-that is all.

When I performed I always had a great monitor system. But it was my own. I've never come across a musician that brought a monitor with them. Keyboard players seem to have the worst amps. A 12 inch guitar type cab with a peizo seems to be hi end for them when they really  need a smooth full range box for what their sounds. The only designated keyboard amp I've ever owned was a Leslie.
I finally have very nice monitors and it's been so easy to keep the performers happy with minimum effort. Something to consider when it's time for new boxes. Makes a big part of the job easier.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Steve M Smith on May 23, 2015, 11:30:41 am
People will often put lots of money in the PA, and then "whatever is left" gets spent on the monitors.

I have similar thoughts about bands touring with an engineer.  If I was in a touring band and had one engineer with me, I would want him on the monitors.


Steve.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Thomas Le on May 23, 2015, 12:21:30 pm
I plan on buying 4 boxes within a month to start and see if i like them.  Its $2100, I'll either get some speakers that sound ok, mainly for the larger outdoor events, or I try and return them or sell on eBay if they are crap.  After that I'll go from there.  If they are good maybe I'll buy more.  Really its the interest thats driving me to purchase them.  I'll upload a video upon arrival with a review.  Ill try to take some smaart readings and post also.

I'm small peas too when it comes to live sound also but I don't go for the line array bandwagon just because it's the cool thing to do, there's ALOT of work to getting a line array to work, sometimes it's not the right tool for the job. If you're going with that mentality then that's not good. You do know that with line arrays, its not just the speakers; there are lifts, amps, cables, and proper rigging that are the requirements and it's a pretty big investment. $2100? Be prepared to 4x that. Besides, with Alto, I'm guessing they got some off-brand chinese boxes from alibaba and put their branding on it. There's a reason why respected manufacturers like L'acoustics, Meyer, EAW, JBL, etc. have theirs costing so much; they do the R&D from the cabs to the drivers and match them/make from scratch based on their research and provide calculators & prediction software in addition to tunings for DSP.

Ok, please forgive me if I'm stepping on my $#*^ here.  I am not even close to the same league as you guys when you start talking about all this stuff and I have zero knowledge about flown line arrays, but someone correct me if I'm wrong, aren't SA pretty much the bottom of the barrel?  I started out with a pair of their 12'' 2 way tops and man they were junk.  And Alto?  Maybe not bottom of the barrel but certainly these are near the bottom aren't they?  I use TS112As for monitors but I would never subject an audience to them.   Someone "Corrected" me the other day when I said Peavey made middle of the road, low rent stuff. Is it the same deal?  Do Alto and Seismic Audio have high end lines that actually aren't junk?

Wow, why skimp for the musicians then? As for your Peavey statement; Peavey was never high-end, Hartley states that he is for the "working musician" just like Uli. I would put Peavey a bit higher than Behringer but after seeing that Undercover Boss ep, I won't consider their products again (I'll have to find an alternative to their USB-p). For Alto & Seismic Audio, they're purely in the "line array" for the bandwagon hype. Unlike other manufacturers that have extensive tools to help prepare deployment of their products like calculators & prediction software, Alto & Seismic Audio have no backing on their products so you're SOL when it comes for support. Like my previous statement above, I'm guessing they got some off-brand chinese boxes from alibaba and put their branding on it.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Sean Stephens on May 23, 2015, 05:13:03 pm
I meant the Seismic boxes, SALA series. I have worked with both alto and seismic.  Alto seems like a glorified home speaker as they did stupid things such as put blutooth connections in the speakers.  Seismic however holds up a bit better.  The speakers i was dealing with were just some standard lower end speakers.  They did sound pretty decent but could clearly hear the difference between the speakers i came with and the seismic ones, especially as i did more and more work for these clients. It was almost just the quality of the speakers as a whole was lacking.  The people that owned them were extremely tough on them too, and didn't know much about audio.   After comparing the SALA series to the ones i used it

(http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/pair-of-dual-15-inch-dj-speakers-pa-speakers-band/p/SA-155.2#product-description-text)

I find it apparent that the SALA are superior. They use all birch plywood, and seem to be made with better quality and parts. By no means did the people who owned the Seismic ones dislike them.  They were perfect for their needs.

Also im a bit confused, on the website it states the coverage is 90x15, not 50..

I looked at that guys Facebook a little more in depth.  Yesterday they had a gig at some venue with a band.  The band later posted that they had fun and sounded great.  No complaints there.

Responding to it being a large investment;
by itself yes $2100 is a large investment, add  in the scaffold, 1/2 ton chain hoists, cabling, mounting frame, amps, your looking at $$,$$$. I haven't been able to come even remotely close for what I'm getting for that price.  The D.A.S. event arrays which i was originally looking at (Like comparing Porsches to Fords) are $2500 new and roughly $2000 used per box.  They are active which cuts the cost of amps but still, thats trading one box for four.  I'll be running the Seismic boxes on XTI 4002s (Most likely 2 boxes per amp.  The reason for this and not the 6002s is because the 6002s require a much larger service that would be much harder to provide. 

I started on a LS9, we ran an EV line array in that hall. That was a great setup.  We also used an X-32 & M-32.


Once I start buying new gear I'll probably go presonus.  And once again don't get me wrong, I'm only buying two per side to see if I like the quality.  If thats the case I will quickly buy 4-8 more, not half-a** it and only have 2 boxes per side for some time. 

The reason I am doing a line array is because i can never achieve the proper coverage outdoors. I know very well how much in all this investment is, and for that reason I wanted to try Seismic. I'm still keeping old gear for the smaller things.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Thomas Le on May 23, 2015, 07:22:13 pm
The thing about SA is that there is NO support, you're going in blind on deployment as there is no calculator/prediction software and they provide no EASE files. The board says No to these but hey, it's your money to burn. If you're that desperate for a "line array", pass up on the gig or try cross-renting from another provider while saving up and buy a real system and invest in training provided by the manufacturer. The other thing about the SALA is we don't know how SAFE & durable the rigging is, if it all comes down, that's a HUGE liability problem.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 23, 2015, 07:37:17 pm
I'd be willing to bet that for 2100 you could find some KF series eaw's, srx jbl's, EV delta stuff, or any number of other real speaker systems that will be 1000% better than what you are trying to buy.

You are not ready for a line array, nor does it sound like you can afford it.

2100 bucks *might* buy you cabling for one side of a real array. Maybe.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Mike Pyle on May 23, 2015, 07:41:50 pm
The reason I am doing a line array is because i can never achieve the proper coverage outdoors. I know very well how much in all this investment is, and for that reason I wanted to try Seismic. I'm still keeping old gear for the smaller things.


Just to put this in perspective, for the amount of money you are about to blow on cheaply made cabs inadequate in number to function as a single line array stack, you could almost buy one new Danley SM80 from a dealer with aggressive pricing.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 23, 2015, 07:49:17 pm

The reason I am doing a line array is because i can never achieve the proper coverage outdoors.
What is the "coverage outdoors" that you are trying to "cover"?

What products have you tried and how were they setup?  Height-power etc?

It sounds like you have gotten "sucked into the hype" and may not be making "realistic" comparisons.

Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: David Hayes on May 23, 2015, 09:07:27 pm
Wow, why skimp for the musicians then? As for your Peavey statement; Peavey was never high-end, Hartley states that he is for the "working musician" just like Uli. I would put Peavey a bit higher than Behringer but after seeing that Undercover Boss ep, I won't consider their products again (I'll have to find an alternative to their USB-p). For Alto & Seismic Audio, they're purely in the "line array" for the bandwagon hype. Unlike other manufacturers that have extensive tools to help prepare deployment of their products like calculators & prediction software, Alto & Seismic Audio have no backing on their products so you're SOL when it comes for support. Like my previous statement above, I'm guessing they got some off-brand chinese boxes from alibaba and put their branding on it.


Well it seems we agree, kind of.  I made a comment here about Peavey being low end stuff and was taken to task for it.  I was told they actually did make high end stuff in a different line ( though I am 46 and have been a musician since the age of 9 and I have personally seen no evidence of this) and that I might be offending some people here.

Several people commented on my monitor statement so I will express my thoughts on the matter.

First of all, I am a bass player with a nice rig that often gets tasked with mixing ( my system) from the stage.  I don't always need PA support for my bass rig, but often I do and when I do I usually have someone else mixing.  My point being that most of the time stage monitors are primarily used for vocals.  When I do run guitars or bass in the monitors it is usually because me and my guitarist are on opposite sides of a large stage and can't hear each other without it. I can ALWAYS hear my bass rig. ;-)

My primary focus as a performer is not to have stellar quality sound coming out of my stage monitors and to hell with the audience.  My primary focus is to sound good out front and to entertain THE AUDIENCE.  The Alto TS112s don't sound like straight up dog shit.  They do a nice job for what I use them for.  The DSR12s present the audience with an above average, professional sound experience. Coupled with some big ol' bastard, kick you in the gut HARD subs they are very tough to beat in a club atmosphere.

Would I like some $2000 top grade monitors?  Sure. If I'm dropping another 2k though most likely it would be on other more important upgrades.  Like a nice digital console.  My Mixwiz is real nice, but sooner or later all you rich dudes will battle to the death with the new digital stuff and one will come out on top ( I hope it ain't the Behringer for chrissakes) and I will pounce. Lugging around a rack full of EQs could be a thing of the past and it wouldn't bother me none.  :-)
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 23, 2015, 09:17:53 pm



Would I like some $2000 top grade monitors? 
Most "top grade" monitors are going to cost you more than $2000 ea.

It just depends on what your "perspective" is.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: David Hayes on May 23, 2015, 09:30:08 pm
Most "top grade" monitors are going to cost you more than $2000 ea.

It just depends on what your "perspective" is.

 I like you Ivan.  You always have great advice.  I'm just glad you aren't my accountant.  lol
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Sean Stephens on May 24, 2015, 03:44:38 am
I'd be willing to bet that for 2100 you could find some KF series eaw's, srx jbl's, EV delta stuff, or any number of other real speaker systems that will be 1000% better than what you are trying to buy.

You are not ready for a line array, nor does it sound like you can afford it.

2100 bucks *might* buy you cabling for one side of a real array. Maybe.

To be 100% honest I really like the quality of the EV stuff and will prob also invest in some of the ekx to etx.  I just feel that you have a lot more flexibility when it comes to arrays.  If i were to hang the EVs the coverage would be inconsistent and improperly dispersed.  I believe my experience is more then capable of handling an array as i have before, also i think i have the judgement to determine whether the rigging is safe.  I started when I was in high school and learned from professionals.  I would never create a liability, i wouldn't hang them on anything less then scaffolding capable of 2000 lbs with a chain hoist capable of 1/2 - 1 ton.  The math says I could safely hang 12 in that scenario, I imagine I wouldn't do more than 8.  As for the hardware on the boxes I'll make sure to be thorough and post some images up here before I hang.  However, you may be correct on my budget  ;D :'(
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 24, 2015, 04:29:51 am
Never said you couldn't rig it.

I said you (as a provider) aren't ready for it.

2/side of any line array will have much worse coverage than just about any trap cab. It will also not be any louder. In fact, it will probably be worse.

Line array cabs are used improperly way more than not.

What kind of area are you trying to cover here?
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 24, 2015, 07:28:31 am
What is this fetish all about? Two boxes per side does not make an array. Two boxes per side for cheaply made crap is a waste of money. Two boxes per side for cheaply made crap with the intent to buy "more" if they sound good is a bullshit statement attempting to justify the purchase of the cheaply made crap.

If the OP has $2100 burning a hole in his pocket then so be it. Buy the crap and live with it. You can always get less than half your money back if you sell them once you find they don't do the job, sound like shit, and nobody is impressed with a fake line array that's not properly hung, has poor coverage, and really bad sound. Why is this even a discussion, AGAIN.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 24, 2015, 08:52:41 am
  I believe my experience is more then capable of handling an array as i have before, also i think i have the judgement to determine whether the rigging is safe.  I started when I was in high school and learned from professionals.  I would never create a liability, i wouldn't hang them on anything less then scaffolding capable of 2000 lbs with a chain hoist capable of 1/2 - 1 ton.  The math says I could safely hang 12 in that scenario, I imagine I wouldn't do more than 8.  As for the hardware on the boxes I'll make sure to be thorough and post some images up here before I hang.  However, you may be correct on my budget  ;D :'(
The question people have been asking is NOT about what you are hanging it from-but rather the boxes and the box to box rigging.

All the weight comes down on the top points on the top box.

It doesn't matter if you are hanging from a 20 ton crane with 1" chain or rope-you are only as strong as the WEAKEST point.

Do you know where THAT is?
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: John Sabine on May 25, 2015, 04:17:42 pm
  Ok.. I am probably the only person on this site (possibly one of only 2 or 3 persons in the world) who actually run an Alto Line Array and I can say with complete confidence that they sound... Nice...
  They did not however sound nice when I purchased them 6 years ago, along with Alto Amps and the Alto processor. I was a Yorkville dealer and Yorkville was the North American distributor for Alto at that time and being a company man kinda guy and needing to step up from my Yorkville powered rig I purchased the 4 over 2 rig with all of the associated outboard gear. Out of the box it was obvious that the factory presets were seriously off. After trying to work with the Alto processor and discovering that it was way to limited to do what was necessary I ditched it and purchased a VTC DLMS 4080 processor. I set my rig up in an arena for a few days and worked with settings until I was satisfied that with the sound quality and limiter settings. I did a few gigs with the Alto amps but was not impressed with their clarity, power or durability (had to order a few extra because at least one was always off for repair). Finally moved the Alto amps to monitor duty and replaced them with Yorkville AP series amps, which was a big improvement.
  Once I replaced the amps I started getting gigs from people who had heard my rig at previous gigs and were impressed. The rig has done between 80 and 125 gigs per year with only two issues, one of which was not really speaker related.

July 2011: Yorkvile AP1020 Power amp that was on highs went dc direct and smoked 8 of 16 horn drivers the night before a festival. Not the speakers fault.
August 2012: Widespread magnet failure of magnet material of low frequency drivers as evidenced in this thread

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,139833.msg1298611.html#msg1298611

This was after using them heavily for close to 200 gigs.

The great thing about these cabinets is that I can use 4 per side for larger jobs or put 2 on stands per side for smaller outside or club gigs. I can also turn on the internal passive crossovers and use them with a single amp for times when I just need something for spoken word or background music

In business terms these cabinets have paid for themselves several times over since I got them, a very good thing.

Efficiency was mentioned earlier.. Here's how they compare to like size speaker cabinets.

Alto SXA28A                                       122 db continuous
Peavey Versarray 112                          123 db continuous
JBL VRX932                                         127.8 db continuous 
VTC EL208                                           126 db continuous
Renkus Heinz CFX101LA                        123 db continuous

As you can see, although they are not gonna knock your head off with output, they are in-line with other speaker offerings in their size class.

Am I recommending that someone go and buy them? NOOOOOOOOOO... I have been very happy with my speakers but as a result of Alto's very sub par customer service all of my cabinets are now loaded with 18 sound 8"  LF drivers and BMS high frequency drivers. Alto apparently had no spare drivers in the country and wanted to charge me shipping from China for any replacements I wanted to order.

Not really trying to make a point in this post, just provide some information.

Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Sean Stephens on May 28, 2015, 10:36:55 am
Curiosity got the best of me so I decided to call seismic, i requested a product demonstration video, the material composition of the rigging an also their max weight load.  The people were very kind however their lack of knowledge struck me.  I found it strange they claimed to sell more then ******500****** boxes to over 100 clients with no returns or complaints. Either they have better quality control then meyer or someone is lying.  I spoke with the "head of technical" whatever the **** that means. They said I will have the video by the middle of next week.  I'll upload it.  That conversation made me pretty uneasy, not a company I want to trust with my reputation.  I think I am going to buy the DAS Convert 12a(s) the only problem is I really want to stay away from powered cabinets for multiple reasons, having to run more cabling, interference of the AC power, and the most important I like my crown amps with extensive dsp and flexibility.  If anyone has any suggestions or advice let me know.  I know the DAS boxes wouldn't even be comparable but I'd really rather not loose my amps, especially with the abuse we put on our cabinets, it would really be a bummer to have to replace a single $2500 cabinet.

Thanks,

Sean
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 28, 2015, 11:19:48 am
Curiosity got the best of me so I decided to call seismic, i requested a product demonstration video, the material composition of the rigging an also their max weight load.  The people were very kind however their lack of knowledge struck me.  I found it strange they claimed to sell more then ******500****** boxes to over 100 clients with no returns or complaints. Either they have better quality control then meyer or someone is lying.  I spoke with the "head of technical" whatever the **** that means. They said I will have the video by the middle of next week.  I'll upload it.  That conversation made me pretty uneasy, not a company I want to trust with my reputation.  I think I am going to buy the DAS Convert 12a(s) the only problem is I really want to stay away from powered cabinets for multiple reasons, having to run more cabling, interference of the AC power, and the most important I like my crown amps with extensive dsp and flexibility.  If anyone has any suggestions or advice let me know.  I know the DAS boxes wouldn't even be comparable but I'd really rather not loose my amps, especially with the abuse we put on our cabinets, it would really be a bummer to have to replace a single $2500 cabinet.

Thanks,

Sean




Is there any other reason why you picked the DAS? If you are buying a constant curve array, and already have Crown DSP amps, the obvious choice would be the VRX. You already have the processing in your amps, and they come non-powered which by your own admission is what you prefer. The JBL name has much more rider acceptability as well....
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Sean Stephens on May 29, 2015, 12:22:24 am



Is there any other reason why you picked the DAS? If you are buying a constant curve array, and already have Crown DSP amps, the obvious choice would be the VRX. You already have the processing in your amps, and they come non-powered which by your own admission is what you prefer. The JBL name has much more rider acceptability as well....

Yes, thank you for your suggestion, I do not want a fixed curve though. I currently have one xti4002 and the ability to get 2 xti4002s and 2 i-tech4000s for roughly $2400.  The DAS sound amazing and have a great throw, thats really my only reasoning next to price point.  I also can get some JBL VT4888 for roughly $1500 per box with 6 available.  I was heavily considering this as well.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 29, 2015, 11:16:57 am
Yes, thank you for your suggestion, I do not want a fixed curve though. I currently have one xti4002 and the ability to get 2 xti4002s and 2 i-tech4000s for roughly $2400.  The DAS sound amazing and have a great throw, thats really my only reasoning next to price point.  I also can get some JBL VT4888 for roughly $1500 per box with 6 available.  I was heavily considering this as well.

Sooooo I'm impressed that you can get those amps and speakers at those prices... used I-Tech 4Ks are running between $1200 and $1500 each, so two free Xti-4002s as well?!? And VT4888s will go between $3K and $3,500 each with bag and board, so I'm wondering who is letting them go for $1,500 each?!?

Anyways. The DAS Converts ARE constant curvatures, so there's no changing box angles (without some jacked up pic-n-save "angle correction bar" which someone will probably make like someone did for the VRX, which are dangerous, not accepted or approved by the manufacturer and would put you in extreme liability risk if you used it).

The 88s ARE able to have fun with angles, however, I would not consider doing *anything* less then 4 boxes per side. 4 is really pushing it; 6 would be the real world "a touring engineer isn't going to be pissed at you" deployment, but you may be able to get by with 4 if the standards are relaxed. I've used 4-box hangs of 88s, both flown and ground stacked, and it's closer to a few PS boxes (as you don't really get the true line array effect), but if it's what you have... or what the client wants to pay for.. :)

With 8 boxes of 88s, though, you get to a whole new amount of fun with amps and cabling. Plan on an amp per speaker. They're 3-way boxes, so I-Tech 4Ks for HF and MF, and then either 2 IT6K or one IT8K for LF. That's for one-4box hang, so now you need another rack (built identically) for your other hang. Because I like people going to my website, in my photo gallery (http://www.kelcema.com/photo_gallery5.htm), left side second picture down, there's a shot of our I-Tech racks for our VerTecs. This is a 4-amp kit that will power 4- VT4888s. Two NL8 outs... you will see other VerTec shops with NL8 4-cable looms to power the rigs, so when I do 8/side, two cables come from here and two cables come from the other rack.

And then once all that is done... rigging... motors... flybars... AC distro... cam feeder... cable ramps... Woo hoo! If you wanted to do an 88 rig right, even with 12 boxes with amps and accessories, plan on about $60-75k.

-Ray
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 29, 2015, 02:11:11 pm
Yep. What he said.


Our ItechHD racks are powered up with 2 L14-30's per rack. We went that way because we have the investment in 14-30 distribution so it made sense.


OP, what kind of shows do you want to provide for with this rig? I'm sure there are other cabinets in your price range that could be a better fit.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Sean Stephens on May 30, 2015, 12:58:27 am
Sooooo I'm impressed that you can get those amps and speakers at those prices... used I-Tech 4Ks are running between $1200 and $1500 each, so two free Xti-4002s as well?!? And VT4888s will go between $3K and $3,500 each with bag and board, so I'm wondering who is letting them go for $1,500 each?!?

Anyways. The DAS Converts ARE constant curvatures, so there's no changing box angles (without some jacked up pic-n-save "angle correction bar" which someone will probably make like someone did for the VRX, which are dangerous, not accepted or approved by the manufacturer and would put you in extreme liability risk if you used it).

The 88s ARE able to have fun with angles, however, I would not consider doing *anything* less then 4 boxes per side. 4 is really pushing it; 6 would be the real world "a touring engineer isn't going to be pissed at you" deployment, but you may be able to get by with 4 if the standards are relaxed. I've used 4-box hangs of 88s, both flown and ground stacked, and it's closer to a few PS boxes (as you don't really get the true line array effect), but if it's what you have... or what the client wants to pay for.. :)

With 8 boxes of 88s, though, you get to a whole new amount of fun with amps and cabling. Plan on an amp per speaker. They're 3-way boxes, so I-Tech 4Ks for HF and MF, and then either 2 IT6K or one IT8K for LF. That's for one-4box hang, so now you need another rack (built identically) for your other hang. Because I like people going to my website, in my photo gallery (http://www.kelcema.com/photo_gallery5.htm), left side second picture down, there's a shot of our I-Tech racks for our VerTecs. This is a 4-amp kit that will power 4- VT4888s. Two NL8 outs... you will see other VerTec shops with NL8 4-cable looms to power the rigs, so when I do 8/side, two cables come from here and two cables come from the other rack.

And then once all that is done... rigging... motors... flybars... AC distro... cam feeder... cable ramps... Woo hoo! If you wanted to do an 88 rig right, even with 12 boxes with amps and accessories, plan on about $60-75k.

-Ray

Thats annoying I didn't even realize the das were constant, I mistook the convert for the event series, thank you for catching that!  The 88s are B grade, or manufacture refurbished.  Thats why they are cheaper, still great price.  Im so up and down with this, it'll be large clubs and outdoor events.
Title: Re: ALTO Line Array ? Everybody wants a Line Array Part II
Post by: Rob Spence on June 12, 2015, 02:28:14 pm
If I didn't already have 4 EV QRX212 cabinets and JTR Growler subs, I would be buying a couple of Danley SM80s and some TH118s.

A couple of low end (or small series) line array boxes per side isn't gonna rock a club.


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