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Title: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Mike Diack on December 08, 2014, 03:53:12 pm
There are thousands of pictures around of Hitler ranting into bottle mics (presumably Neumann) at the ralleys, but none of the long shots of the field seem to show any speakers. What was between the mics and the ears of the hundreds of thousands of listeners? Amps? Speakers? and dare I say it - time alignment?.
M
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 08, 2014, 04:38:19 pm
Not sure... but yes, the mics were Neumann (or Telefunken).  In fact, one model is sometimes referred to as the Hitler Microphone.

Time alignment... not likely!


Steve.

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Mike Diack on December 08, 2014, 06:50:28 pm
Time alignment... not likely!
Steve.
The Germans were way ahead of the field with magnetic recording technology, and I have some vague recollection of some sort of rotating disc with movable heads for short time delays.
M
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 08, 2014, 07:09:23 pm


Time alignment... not likely!


Steve.
I have heard (cannot confirm) that delay was achieved in the early days by running a small speaker into a tube with a mic at the other end (plane wave tube).

This tube could then be coiled up to the length needed.

The mic would supply the delay system.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 09, 2014, 02:49:06 am
This tube could then be coiled up to the length needed.
That's a clever idea, but wouldn't the length needed be equal to the distance between the speakers?  That could be quite a lot of tube!

The Germans were way ahead of the field with magnetic recording technology
They had a machine which recorded on wire at that time.  Have a look on Dave Rat's YouTube channel.  He gives a demonstration of one which he got hold of.

EDIT: Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCenGzoTTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCenGzoTTA)

 
Steve.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on December 09, 2014, 03:47:31 am
A shot of speakers (i think) from ~37 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ceLnMT0rps
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 09, 2014, 07:41:00 am
That's a clever idea, but wouldn't the length needed be equal to the distance between the speakers?  That could be quite a lot of tube!
They had a machine which recorded on wire at that time.  Have a look on Dave Rat's YouTube channel.  He gives a demonstration of one which he got hold of.

EDIT: Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCenGzoTTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCenGzoTTA)

 
Steve.
Hence the reason for coiling it up-or it could be run to the location of the speakers (assuming the amp was at the speaker location.

Yes a lot of tube-but money was not an issue.

And consider in the old days how expensive delay units were.  That buys a lot of tubing.

Times have change quite a bit.  I still remember my first digital delay.  You could only select times in 5ms increments (yes 5ms).

It was VERY noisy-so you HAD to drive it real hard (Iright before clipping) and then reduce the gain on the amps to get the noise to an almost acceptable level..

Things are SOOOOOO much easier these days.

But you learn a lot when you don't have a lot of toys to play with :)
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 09, 2014, 07:41:49 am
A shot of speakers (i think) from ~37 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ceLnMT0rps
Looks like big horns to me :)  They worked back then and still work today.  Something most manufacturers have forgotten.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on December 09, 2014, 05:33:20 pm
Looks like big horns to me :)  They worked back then and still work today.  Something most manufacturers have forgotten.
I use 60x40 DDS 2-60X Pro horns in my PA system. They are 21"H x 18.5"W. I have smaller 65x50 DDS 2-65Pro horns in my home and rehersal system. They are 14.5"W x 8"H. There no comparrison between the 2 horns. The bigger is way better for PA use. I use Radian 850PB drivers in all the horns. Heres an old foto of one of the big DDS horns. My bass drums are 22".
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Milt Hathaway on December 09, 2014, 06:15:24 pm
I use 60x40 DDS 2-60X Pro horns in my PA system.

That's not a horn.

THAT'S is a horn:
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jerome Malsack on December 09, 2014, 06:55:00 pm
I tried to google  1936 olympics sound system and found a reference to a 500 watt system but the site was listed as possibly hazardous to computers. 

Found it also difficult to read because of the photos and backgrounds used. 
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on December 09, 2014, 10:39:41 pm
That's not a horn.

THAT'S is a horn:
MAN ! you scared my wittle horns, my wittle horns , my wittle horns. They are in hiding.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 10, 2014, 07:37:29 am
That's not a horn.

THAT'S is a horn:
Here's a nice "little" pair of horns

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.540171399352331.1073741830.126113687424773&type=3
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Mike Diack on December 10, 2014, 02:52:34 pm
Looks like big horns to me :)  They worked back then and still work today.  Something most manufacturers have forgotten.
Price of amplifier watts plummeted, whilst labour and transport got expensive, and we all got older and less enthusiastic about carrying a concert "W" bin up the stairs. I still reckon the sound of a classic horn loaded 4 way beats a line array any day. Would still love to find a close shot of the horn in that video that JG put up.
M
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 10, 2014, 04:13:35 pm
. Would still love to find a close shot of the horn in that video that JG put up.
M
Me to.

I knew a guy years ago that had some HUGE cobalt magnet horn drivers.  He said they were from the 30s or 40s.

I never heard them, but they were REAL impressive looking.

It makes you want to back in time to hear such events.

When they invent the time machine-the first place I want to go is the original Woodstock.

Then I want to visit some of my gigs from the 80s-to see what they really sounded like.

I have a feeling I would be sorely dissappointed-given my current "reference".

But hey-everybody was happy-I got paid and got more work-so it could not have been "that" bad----------
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 10, 2014, 04:39:24 pm
In 1920 Western Electric built a 12 foot wooden horn on the roof of their West street offices and all notables who sailed in or out of NY were greeted by the booming voice of someone from WE. Well not every time. One afternoon as the showman Roxy was sailing home from Europe he was greeted too late by by a blast that rocked the Palisades ... "My God, he's gone by...".    ;D

====
There were some serious horns behind the screen of the early sound movies. While horns actually predate amplification where there were early architectural horns built into speaking tubes so a human voice could address a larger area while there only so much acoustic gain available from that.

Electrical amplification only became practical with the development of the vacuum tube and NF circuits.

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 10, 2014, 05:45:19 pm
Electrical amplification only became practical with the development of the vacuum tube and NF circuits.

I think a fair amount was possible with carbon microphones and a decent power supply.

When I was quite a bit younger than now, I used to have a turntable in my bedroom with a ceramic cartridge connected via a transformer to a loudspeaker.  Not a great amount of volume but enough to listen to records at night when it was quiet.  No amplifier required. 


Steve.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on December 10, 2014, 06:33:46 pm
I actually remember a history teacher from back in my days at high school,  talking about some of the speeches (in regards to the hype and getting everyone riled up).  One thing I clearly remember from that class was the comments made about the speaker system (I can't provide any links so I guess this is only hearsay).  According to the teacher,  the speakers had special loose louvers on the front that were designed to CREATE distortion, esp at the loud bits. The idea being to make it harder to understand and the masses tended to follow along with the loyal supporters up front (plus, distortion gets you angry? ).
Like I said,  can't prove it,  but I vividly remember that for some reason.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 10, 2014, 06:38:47 pm
I think a fair amount was possible with carbon microphones and a decent power supply.

When I was quite a bit younger than now, I used to have a turntable in my bedroom with a ceramic cartridge connected via a transformer to a loudspeaker.  Not a great amount of volume but enough to listen to records at night when it was quiet.  No amplifier required. 


Steve.

Yes but... the vacuum tube "and" very importantly NF (negative feedback) delivered accurate amplification that could be cascaded in series, like for the cross country telephone system. Imagine how bad a telephone signal would sound without flat, low distortion amplifiers.

JR

PS: My record player when I was a young puke had a 4 tube (Lafayette Radio) amplifier.But my dad was a recording engineer for RCA records until the mid 1950s (RIP).

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 10, 2014, 06:46:37 pm
I actually remember a history teacher from back in my days at high school,  talking about some of the speeches (in regards to the hype and getting everyone riled up).  One thing I clearly remember from that class was the comments made about the speaker system (I can't provide any links so I guess this is only hearsay).  According to the teacher,  the speakers had special loose louvers on the front that were designed to CREATE distortion, esp at the loud bits. The idea being to make it harder to understand and the masses tended to follow along with the loyal supporters up front (plus, distortion gets you angry? ).
Like I said,  can't prove it,  but I vividly remember that for some reason.

?? You sure that isn't common core history??

Here's a picture from the 1920 republican convention (same system was used at the later democrat convention). These were indoor SR, I vaguely recall reading about outdoor SR attempted after WWI for some of the huge parades celebrating armistice. Another technology milestone was Hitler using a wire recorder to makes speeches without being in the same place and same time. Perhaps useful in a war when several countries are trying to kill you. 

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Scott Hofmann on December 10, 2014, 07:34:47 pm
?? You sure that isn't common core history??

Here's a picture from the 1920 republican convention (same system was used at the later democrat convention). These were indoor SR, I vaguely recall reading about outdoor SR attempted after WWI for some of the huge parades celebrating armistice. Another technology milestone was Hitler using a wire recorder to makes speeches without being in the same place and same time. Perhaps useful in a war when several countries are trying to kill you. 

JR

Were not  Hitler's speeches were recorded on magnetic tape, which had much more fidelity than wire recording? I thought that was the reason the Allies had trouble figuring out if it was a live broadcast or not, as the fidelity was astounding for the time.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on December 10, 2014, 08:04:37 pm
?? You sure that isn't common core history??
JR

Sorry,  not quite sure what you mean.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 10, 2014, 08:49:14 pm
Me to.

I knew a guy years ago that had some HUGE cobalt magnet horn drivers.  He said they were from the 30s or 40s.

I never heard them, but they were REAL impressive looking.

It makes you want to back in time to hear such events.

When they invent the time machine-the first place I want to go is the original Woodstock.

Then I want to visit some of my gigs from the 80s-to see what they really sounded like.

I have a feeling I would be sorely disappointed-given my current "reference".

But hey-everybody was happy-I got paid and got more work-so it could not have been "that" bad----------

Ivan I am 50 and went to quite a few concerts in my teens and twenties.  I was already into sound so I would like to think that I had a somewhat critical ear:

Here are a few I recall:

1 - The Who (or part of the Who) in the Sportatreum in South Florida.  I am not even sure it was music.  Just a mass of noise above the crowd.  The venue was awful.  It was like being inside a bong with dirty water and then the sound.

2 - Jimmy Buffet -1981 - I still talk about this one vocals were unintelligible.  He also has some early moving leeco's that made a god awful racket.  No contrast or black level in the early video projectors

3 - Journey in an outdoor stadium in Orlando 1982 - (Also Aerosmith, Hagar one of those rock super bowl deals) anyway.  We were not on the field but the sound was excellent.  Even the girls commented on how good it was - decent level outdoor concert possible

4 - Best intimate show I have ever scene was Al Stewart around the same time frame.  It was in a small venue Tirrea Verde in St. Pete.   The mix was perfect.  His musicianship on the piano spectacular. 

What I do remember is in 1980 the theater at my college had just  pair of Altec Lansing VoT in an elevated room off either side of the proscenium arch.  It was a 1000 seat facility.  I remember walking the seats and we had decent even coverage, no large areas of combing.  I was able to later add small fills for the first few rows.  I was a student but the facility leaned on me heavily.  It was my first pro "working" experience.

(http://iastage.com/files/falk01.jpg)

I know these are pretty lame descriptions.  The memories are more vivid.  Now that I wrote this I too would like to compare it to the sonic experiences we create today.

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 10, 2014, 10:00:12 pm
Ivan I am 50 and went to quite a few concerts in my teens and twenties.  I was already into sound so I would like to think that I had a somewhat critical ear:

Here are a few I recall:

1 - The Who (or part of the Who) in the Sportatreum in South Florida.  I am not even sure it was music.  Just a mass of noise above the crowd.  The venue was awful.  It was like being inside a bong with dirty water and then the sound.

2 - Jimmy Buffet -1981 - I still talk about this one vocals were unintelligible.  He also has some early moving leeco's that made a god awful racket.  No contrast or black level in the early video projectors

3 - Journey in an outdoor stadium in Orlando 1982 - (Also Aerosmith, Hagar one of those rock super bowl deals) anyway.  We were not on the field but the sound was excellent.  Even the girls commented on how good it was - decent level outdoor concert possible

4 - Best intimate show I have ever scene was Al Stewart around the same time frame.  It was in a small venue Tirrea Verde in St. Pete.   The mix was perfect.  His musicianship on the piano spectacular. 

What I do remember is in 1980 the theater at my college had just  pair of Altec Lansing VoT in an elevated room off either side of the proscenium arch.  It was a 1000 seat facility.  I remember walking the seats and we had decent even coverage, no large areas of combing.  I was able to later add small fills for the first few rows.  I was a student but the facility leaned on me heavily.  It was my first pro "working" experience.

(http://iastage.com/files/falk01.jpg)

I know these are pretty lame descriptions.  The memories are more vivid.  Now that I wrote this I too would like to compare it to the sonic experiences we create today.
Some of the concerts I remember

My very first concert was "the Four Tops"-i got a free pass from a friend.  The only thing I remember was during their set a speaker on house right started buzzing and making a lot of racket.  It took awhile for them to figure out which one it was and "I guess" unplug it.

Blue Oyster Cult (Agents of fortune tour).  I don't remember anything about the sound-but the laser show was AWSOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I had never seen a laser show (as most people had not back then) and it blew me away.

ZZ top (late 70s).  The sound was so bad I actually left  Just a big mush

Rush (1977)  The only thing I remember is that they setup the PA and sidefills wrong.  On house left the Main horns were double driver JBLs and the sidefills were single driver horns.  On house right they used the single driver horns for Mains and double driver horns for sidefills.

J Geils Band -Blow your face out tour  Probably the most fun I have ever had at a concert.  Old Community system and I remember it sounding GREAT.

Charlie Daniels Band (Souths gonna do it again tour)   The whole PA "appeared" to be 2x12" cabinets with no horns.  The cabinets were stacked horizontal and vertical and TONS of C Clamps were used to keep the cabinets together-all different colors/sizes etc.  I remember it sounding good

Ted Nugent/Foreinger/Black Oak  Outside and they used the Call Jam PA.  It was LOUD LOUD.  Everybody sounded fine except Foreinger.  The distortion in the system was "passable for Nugent and Black Oak but really made Foreinger sound bad.

Jimmy Buffett (1977)  The local college gym where I saw a lot of bands in and I was very disappointed when I walked in.  The PA was small.  A pair of Altec VOT and some other cabinets.  After the warm up band played they removed the other cabinets and just left  1 or 2 pair of VOTs.  It was was of the best sounding PAs in that room-but not as loud as the other acts.

There were many others-but these just stick out a bit.

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 10, 2014, 11:52:44 pm

J Geils Band -Blow your face out tour  Probably the most fun I have ever had at a concert.  Old Community system and I remember it sounding GREAT.



My wife loves Bob Seger and he happen to be in town for her birthday last week.   J. Geils opened and it was the best part of the show for me.  Peter Wolf still has it, it was just plain a great show. 

Seger's band was also great.  The drummer from Grand Funk is now a Sliver Bullet.  Bob's voice was tired.

I didn't recognize the array they used nor did I spend many cycles thinking about it.  We had seats on the mezzanine first row right above FOH and it the levels were good for me and we simply had fun.  I don't do that often enough.

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 11, 2014, 12:00:28 am
Were not  Hitler's speeches were recorded on magnetic tape, which had much more fidelity than wire recording? I thought that was the reason the Allies had trouble figuring out if it was a live broadcast or not, as the fidelity was astounding for the time.
I should probably google this but I think there were some recordings made on actual metal tape, literally thin metal foil rolled up on reels. Scary stuff... but pretty much the same electronically as wire recorders. 

I think there were some machines captured by the military and given to WE or Bell Labs to "check out" (reverse engineer).

Not in Dad's notebooks. So I do not have any details.

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 11, 2014, 12:02:35 am
Sorry,  not quite sure what you mean.
Sorry I am not a big fan of modern education policy. So I was being snarky, suggesting that the history might be flawed.

JR

PS: If you have to diagram your jokes they are not very good jokes.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 11, 2014, 12:24:06 am
Ivan I am 50 and went to quite a few concerts in my teens and twenties.  I was already into sound so I would like to think that I had a somewhat critical ear:

Here are a few I recall:

1 - The Who (or part of the Who) in the Sportatreum in South Florida.  I am not even sure it was music.  Just a mass of noise above the crowd.  The venue was awful.  It was like being inside a bong with dirty water and then the sound.
I saw the Who as an opening act for the Doors back in the '60s on long Island. I actually knew who they were (my friends were there to see the Doors and didn't). When I predicted that Peter Townsend would smash his guitar my friends thought I was psychic  ;D (some still do). It was an outdoor venue so sound was so-so but it was loud enough for a near riot after the Doors did their set and Morrison stirred the pot.

Many years later I ran into John Entwistle (RIP) smoking a fag outside the front door of my office building (Peavey headquarters). I tried to show him some respect and told him I was in the audience several decades earlier. but it was awkward.   
Quote
2 - Jimmy Buffet -1981 - I still talk about this one vocals were unintelligible.  He also has some early moving leeco's that made a god awful racket.  No contrast or black level in the early video projectors

3 - Journey in an outdoor stadium in Orlando 1982 - (Also Aerosmith, Hagar one of those rock super bowl deals) anyway.  We were not on the field but the sound was excellent.  Even the girls commented on how good it was - decent level outdoor concert possible

4 - Best intimate show I have ever scene was Al Stewart around the same time frame.  It was in a small venue Tirrea Verde in St. Pete.   The mix was perfect.  His musicianship on the piano spectacular. 

What I do remember is in 1980 the theater at my college had just  pair of Altec Lansing VoT in an elevated room off either side of the proscenium arch.  It was a 1000 seat facility.  I remember walking the seats and we had decent even coverage, no large areas of combing.  I was able to later add small fills for the first few rows.  I was a student but the facility leaned on me heavily.  It was my first pro "working" experience.

(http://iastage.com/files/falk01.jpg)

I know these are pretty lame descriptions.  The memories are more vivid.  Now that I wrote this I too would like to compare it to the sonic experiences we create today.
I've had live bands jamming in my living room... Nobody you guys would recognize, but it was real.

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Tom Roche on December 12, 2014, 07:06:25 pm
...(Also Aerosmith, Hagar one of those rock super bowl deals)...

I saw Sammy Hagar open up for Aerosmith ... likely the same tour.  This was in '82 at the Capital Center in D.C.  Sammy was great, but Aerosmith was aweful......bad sound and poor performance.  Perry hadn't returned to the band.  Tyler was sporting what I call a Robin Hood style mustache & goatee just like Errol Flynn's.  Still the worst concert I've ever attended.

I swore off attending concerts in large indoor venues about 20 years ago, but attended this year's Eagles show after my girlfriend surprised me with tickets.  I've got to say, it was one of the best shows ever. 
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 13, 2014, 02:43:11 am
I should probably google this but I think there were some recordings made on actual metal tape, literally thin metal foil rolled up on reels. Scary stuff

If I remember correctly, it was particularly scary because it had to run at high speed. It could cause quite an injury if it broke.


Steve.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on December 13, 2014, 07:17:20 am
up until the 80's the flight data recorders in big airplanes had a needle that etched the flight info on a tin foil strip. they went to digital fdr's. this is flight one zero one zero asking for clearence Clarance.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Steve Alves on December 13, 2014, 10:55:57 am
1 - The Who (or part of the Who) in the Sportatreum in South Florida.  I am not even sure it was music.  Just a mass of noise above the crowd.  The venue was awful.  It was like being inside a bong with dirty water and then the sound.

Wow, that brings back memories. I cannot even remember how many concerts I saw at the Sportatorium. A giant metal shed with a leaky roof.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Steve M Smith on December 13, 2014, 11:00:55 am
I cannot even remember how many concerts I saw at the Sportatorium.

Was that its real name?


Steve.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Steve Alves on December 13, 2014, 03:02:50 pm
Was that its real name?


Steve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Sportatorium
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 13, 2014, 04:30:57 pm
up until the 80's the flight data recorders in big airplanes had a needle that etched the flight info on a tin foil strip. they went to digital fdr's. this is flight one zero one zero asking for clearence Clarance.

This is true, but the FDR is a data recorder.  It records data points such as airspeed, altitude etc.  (the current ones are amazing, and most modern jets also have a maintenance DR).

The audio is a different device called the "cockpit voice recorder".  It was a loop tape, and pushing the erase button once you land was a critical procedure, or else your escapades with the stewardess on the "lay" could be career limiting.

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on December 13, 2014, 06:52:18 pm
This is true, but the FDR is a data recorder.  It records data points such as airspeed, altitude etc.  (the current ones are amazing, and most modern jets also have a maintenance DR).

The audio is a different device called the "cockpit voice recorder".  It was a loop tape, and pushing the erase button once you land was a critical procedure, or else your escapades with the stewardess on the "lay" could be career limiting.
the cvr records everything they say. they joked about crashing. flaps were not set. an engine compressor stall. hu oh !

                                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T19SyOBdYwM#t=15
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 15, 2014, 01:23:32 pm
the cvr records everything they say. they joked about crashing. flaps were not set. an engine compressor stall. hu oh !

                                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T19SyOBdYwM#t=15

One of my corpy gigs is a safety conference that is partially sponsored by the NTSB.  We get to see/hear a lot of ATC, ground and CVR audio and now, preserved surveillance video from airports (runway incursion/excursion, approach/departure errors, etc).  The "sterile cockpit" and full use of checklists is more important than most of us realize.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 15, 2014, 03:41:26 pm
One of my corpy gigs is a safety conference that is partially sponsored by the NTSB.  We get to see/hear a lot of ATC, ground and CVR audio and now, preserved surveillance video from airports (runway incursion/excursion, approach/departure errors, etc).  The "sterile cockpit" and full use of checklists is more important than most of us realize.

When I started flying in the early 80's cockpits were arranged with no thought to workflow or ergonomics.

No checklists and emergency memory items are taught as "flows" and in newer private and commercial aircraft the switches are grouped together logically.

When one missed item can kill 300 people in a transport class plane (and it has, burned out landing gear lights, flap/slats settings, proper power adjustment) these simple items have all caused accidents that had the industry revisit the entire process.

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 15, 2014, 05:38:00 pm
I just saw an article in the WSJ about reducing flight crews on jumbo jets down to one pilot, using ground based co-pilots to do the light lifting. I think they are even pondering eventually going with no pilots, while they expect push back from the public over that.  ;D ;D ;D

Some recent landing crashes have been blamed on too much automation, where the pilots do not have the old school "seat of the pants" flying skills (like Capt Sulley did) to react to or even foresee a problem. Landing a jumbo jet is not exactly like hang gliding.

Even worse some high performance combat aircraft airfoils are not even stable so require computer assist to keep pointed in the right direction. 

JR

PS: I wouldn't mind a technology capability for ground personnel to take over and land an aircraft when the flight crew is unresponsive or somehow incapacitated, while the risk of this control being hacked with bad intentions seems very real.   
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on December 15, 2014, 09:40:52 pm
I just saw an article in the WSJ about reducing flight crews on jumbo jets down to one pilot, using ground based co-pilots to do the light lifting. I think they are even pondering eventually going with no pilots, while they expect push back from the public over that.  ;D ;D ;D

Some recent landing crashes have been blamed on too much automation, where the pilots do not have the old school "seat of the pants" flying skills (like Capt Sulley did) to react to or even foresee a problem. Landing a jumbo jet is not exactly like hang gliding.

Even worse some high performance combat aircraft airfoils are not even stable so require computer assist to keep pointed in the right direction. 

JR

PS: I wouldn't mind a technology capability for ground personnel to take over and land an aircraft when the flight crew is unresponsive or somehow incapacitated, while the risk of this control being hacked with bad intentions seems very real.
if they do i wonder how long before someone hacks into the system and crashes the plane.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 16, 2014, 08:02:18 pm
I just saw an article in the WSJ about reducing flight crews on jumbo jets down to one pilot, using ground based co-pilots to do the light lifting. I think they are even pondering eventually going with no pilots, while they expect push back from the public over that.  ;D ;D ;D

Some recent landing crashes have been blamed on too much automation, where the pilots do not have the old school "seat of the pants" flying skills (like Capt Sulley did) to react to or even foresee a problem. Landing a jumbo jet is not exactly like hang gliding.

Even worse some high performance combat aircraft airfoils are not even stable so require computer assist to keep pointed in the right direction. 

JR

PS: I wouldn't mind a technology capability for ground personnel to take over and land an aircraft when the flight crew is unresponsive or somehow incapacitated, while the risk of this control being hacked with bad intentions seems very real.

My rule is AP off at the outer marker or FAF (Final Approach Fix) gives you plenty of time to assess the wind direction, gusts and thermals that you will need to adjust for on landing.  It is also good to be fully engaged with the airplane and not just monitoring.

I had a newer younger pilot with me and he saw me do this and asked what I was doing.  I said flying, he said "why would you want to do that if you have the AP"   FML

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 17, 2014, 12:19:17 pm

I had a newer younger pilot with me and he saw me do this and asked what I was doing.  I said flying, he said "why would you want to do that if you have the AP"   FML

Not to swerve the topic too far... but blind allegiance to cockpit automation is a Very Bad Thing and is already contributing to aircraft incidents... just like blind deference to senior personnel.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Mike Diack on December 17, 2014, 03:38:41 pm
Not to swerve the topic too far...
I think we are so far off topic that we've appeared in an alternative universe :-)
M
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on December 17, 2014, 08:51:25 pm
I think we are so far off topic that we've appeared in an alternative universe :-)
M
you could be miles off course. no way Ray , our instuments are guiding us. 

                                                   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEywGpIt0vw
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on December 18, 2014, 01:31:30 pm
you could be miles off course. no way Ray , our instuments are guiding us. 

                                                   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEywGpIt0vw

Unless you're still learning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVhNCTH8pDs
Title: Re: Nuremberg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Art Welter on December 19, 2014, 08:36:53 am
A shot of speakers (i think) from ~37 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ceLnMT0rps
Jonathan,

The PA shots show large horns with a relatively small compression chamber, the squarish box on the back of the cabinet. The cabinets appear to be a two part conical horn, preceding by decades the now classic rectangular conical horn form "invented" by "Don" Keele in the mid 1970s that he generally used in his designs as he went from company to company.

In early 1992 I developed a 3 way nested conical horn system called the Maltese, the prototype for that system looked nearly identical in form to the Hitler PA. The pictures below show the mid/high portion of the Maltese horn, the bass portion was similar in size to the Nuremberg Rally PA. It is very possible given the driver technology available at the time of the rally that the bass horns had a nested high frequency horn within, though impossible to say for sure without eye-witness accounts or photos from the front.

Maybe my Maltese design was a subliminal PA memory of seeing the Nuremberg Rally in film clips previously  :).

Art
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Robert Piascik on January 09, 2015, 01:41:03 pm
I'm off topic for Hitler's sound system, but back to the size of horns: can anyone comment on the PA in this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFD2gu007dc

there are some shots starting at 1:47 into the video

what is the PA?
what is driving those horns?

thanks!
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Mike Diack on January 09, 2015, 03:40:49 pm
I'm off topic for Hitler's sound system, but back to the size of horns: can anyone comment on the PA in this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFD2gu007dc

there are some shots starting at 1:47 into the video

what is the PA?
what is driving those horns?

thanks!

They are Altec 1505s - usually driven by 288s
The entire crew are Lilliputians.
M
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on January 09, 2015, 04:05:45 pm
my horns have gone into hiding. them big uns a frighted them.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2015, 07:03:34 pm
I'm off topic for Hitler's sound system, but back to the size of horns: can anyone comment on the PA in this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFD2gu007dc

there are some shots starting at 1:47 into the video

what is the PA?
what is driving those horns?

thanks!
The cabinets look like they might be Clair S4s.

I don't think the large "horn like things" being hoisted into place are actually used-there is no "rear horn", but rather they were just for decoration.

I could be wrong however.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 10, 2015, 12:03:10 am
The cabinets look like they might be Clair S4s.

I don't think the large "horn like things" being hoisted into place are actually used-there is no "rear horn", but rather they were just for decoration.

I could be wrong however.

That was my thought at first, too, but a few seconds later there is a long shot of the stage and sound wings, and I see no other PA.  Granted it's pretty low-res, but it makes me wonder if these multi-cells are actually used as horns.  I don't see anything behind them during the lift, but....

The show was c.1992.  We might have some forum member who were around for that tour...
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 10, 2015, 12:49:44 pm
That was my thought at first, too, but a few seconds later there is a long shot of the stage and sound wings, and I see no other PA.  Granted it's pretty low-res, but it makes me wonder if these multi-cells are actually used as horns.  I don't see anything behind them during the lift, but....

The show was c.1992.  We might have some forum member who were around for that tour...
At 1:58 and 2:01 you can clearly see the "other PA" that is basically square boxes with grill cloth-about the size of S4s.

However there are also various large horns that are "hanging free" on the scaffolding in those shots as well.

I still think they were decoration.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 13, 2015, 08:05:14 am
At 1:58 and 2:01 you can clearly see the "other PA" that is basically square boxes with grill cloth-about the size of S4s.

However there are also various large horns that are "hanging free" on the scaffolding in those shots as well.

I still think they were decoration.

Please let us start the rumor that Clair first developed the S4 for Nuremburg!!

It is custom-made for FOX News: "Did a Pennsylvania sound company support Hitler?"

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Anthony Bowe on January 06, 2016, 04:00:27 pm
I still reckon the sound of a classic horn loaded 4 way beats a line array any day. Would still love to find a close shot of the horn in that video that JG put up.
M

Agree 100%, and yes, my back is shot after lugging W bins up and down stairs.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Stephen Kirby on January 08, 2016, 01:42:03 pm
At 1:58 and 2:01 you can clearly see the "other PA" that is basically square boxes with grill cloth-about the size of S4s.

However there are also various large horns that are "hanging free" on the scaffolding in those shots as well.

I still think they were decoration.
I'd bet you're right.  For years the general public associated multi-cell horns with "good sound".  Remember all the Radio Shack and other cheap stereo speakers that had plastic multi-cell exposed horns that had nothing behind them?  Occasionally they were used with a small paper tweeter or piezo but I can't remember any outside of the home Altec's they were copying that actually had compression drivers.  Those plywood multi-cells I think were meant to convey to the public "speakers!" since the S4 type boxes didn't look so exciting.  I remember a guy in Hawaii in the late '70s with his small 5 way cabinets that sounded amazing in the arena but didn't look so impressive, so he stacked up empty bins and horns so that it "felt" like a real concert.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Sulek on January 11, 2016, 03:53:15 pm
I'm off topic for Hitler's sound system, but back to the size of horns: can anyone comment on the PA in this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFD2gu007dc

there are some shots starting at 1:47 into the video

what is the PA?
what is driving those horns?

thanks!

Some friends of mine worked on the Adams audio crew back in the 90's
The PA would have been Jason Sound J60's. The wedges in the video are definitely JSI J17's.
The big cellular horns were set pieces.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Steve M Smith on January 12, 2016, 02:46:55 am
Agree 100%, and yes, my back is shot after lugging W bins up and down stairs.
There is an easier way in the down direction!
 
 
Steve.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 23, 2016, 03:53:16 pm
Different year-but same "party"

Not any useful information-but a photo anyway

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208693011065320&set=p.10208693011065320&type=3&theater
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Craig Leerman on January 27, 2016, 03:38:11 am
From Hitler, to rock bands, to an old political convention, to planes, to rock bands, to set pieces!

Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Randy Pence on February 02, 2018, 06:11:47 am
Please let us start the rumor that Clair first developed the S4 for Nuremburg!!

It is custom-made for FOX News: "Did a Pennsylvania sound company support Hitler?"

While I'd love to make a joke about the model number missing an "S," I am reminded of all the killed and murdered people and destroyed buildings from that era every time I walk out my door
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on February 02, 2018, 10:28:53 pm
While I'd love to make a joke about the model number missing an "S," I am reminded of all the killed and murdered people and destroyed buildings from that era every time I walk out my door

Jokes about an authoritarian goverment that stokes racial and religous hatred are always in poor taste. Thank you for resisting temptation.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Riley Casey on February 03, 2018, 09:37:57 am
Unless you live with such a government in which case itís the least you can do.

Jokes about an authoritarian goverment that stokes racial and religous hatred are always in poor taste. Thank you for resisting temptation.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on February 03, 2018, 02:27:03 pm
Unless you live with such a government in which case itís the least you can do.

So noted. I wasn't sure I could say that....
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 03, 2018, 03:48:36 pm
Unless you live with such a government in which case itís the least you can do.
I was lucky enough to be born in the US, but while in the army (defending the 1st amendment among others) I got to visit countries that had a history of being less well behaved.

Not sure we should open that can of worms here and now...

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Riley Casey on February 03, 2018, 04:54:06 pm
The observation that citizens should push back against oppressive government isn't politics by the definition of the forum I suspect.  Deciding which governments fall under that definition might be though.

 
So noted. I wasn't sure I could say that....
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 03, 2018, 05:58:24 pm
The observation that citizens should push back against oppressive government isn't politics by the definition of the forum I suspect.  Deciding which governments fall under that definition might be though.
Don't tread on me....     8)

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on February 04, 2018, 11:35:27 pm
I'd bet you're right.  For years the general public associated multi-cell horns with "good sound".  Remember all the Radio Shack and other cheap stereo speakers that had plastic multi-cell exposed horns that had nothing behind them?  Occasionally they were used with a small paper tweeter or piezo but I can't remember any outside of the home Altec's they were copying that actually had compression drivers.  Those plywood multi-cells I think were meant to convey to the public "speakers!" since the S4 type boxes didn't look so exciting.  I remember a guy in Hawaii in the late '70s with his small 5 way cabinets that sounded amazing in the arena but didn't look so impressive, so he stacked up empty bins and horns so that it "felt" like a real concert.
Honk honk !
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 05, 2018, 09:40:04 am
Honk honk !
When I was a kid growing up (a while ago) my dad's hifi (one large speaker) had a cast iron (?) multi cell horn. The speaker was mounted in the corner of the living room angled up slightly, so I suspect dad was going for some free bass boost from the corner placement, and optimistically hoping to provide sound to the whole house. My recollection was a low single digit watt tube amp.  8)

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Roland Clarke on February 07, 2018, 05:08:15 am
I have heard (cannot confirm) that delay was achieved in the early days by running a small speaker into a tube with a mic at the other end (plane wave tube).

This tube could then be coiled up to the length needed.

The mic would supply the delay system.

I heard someone recently use this trick for a guitar sound, unfortunately you end up with multiple delays and a very filtered sound so I suspect even if it were tried, it was likely unsuccessful, at least in terms of a standard delay.  Soundwise it was reminiscent of several tannoy horns around a school field with added resonance and top rolling off from about 1k.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Stephen Kirby on February 07, 2018, 06:09:47 pm
When I was a kid growing up (a while ago) my dad's hifi (one large speaker) had a cast iron (?) multi cell horn. The speaker was mounted in the corner of the living room angled up slightly, so I suspect dad was going for some free bass boost from the corner placement, and optimistically hoping to provide sound to the whole house. My recollection was a low single digit watt tube amp.  8)

JR
Early Klipsh?  Or DIY similar?  I remember that was popular "back in the day".

In the '60s my dad found some very thin EVs with whizzers that he mounted in the wall, using the stud space as an infinite baffle.  My mom put picture frames with burlap and a couple plastic plants for decoration over them.  A KnightKit amp with 2 EL84s per channel sounded loud to me in those days.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 07, 2018, 07:11:37 pm
Early Klipsh?  Or DIY similar?  I remember that was popular "back in the day".
Knowing my dad (not as much as I'd like), I suspect it was a commercial box, not hifi... Did Klipsch use cast iron segmented horns, I seem to recall some pretty wood segmented horns?  Klipsch was big about corner loading, but my dad used a normal box, just stuck into a corner (not perfectly aligned, roughly in the corner and angled up, so strong boundary coupling was perhaps compromised on more than one axis).   
Quote
In the '60s my dad found some very thin EVs with whizzers that he mounted in the wall, using the stud space as an infinite baffle.  My mom put picture frames with burlap and a couple plastic plants for decoration over them.  A KnightKit amp with 2 EL84s per channel sounded loud to me in those days.
Yes.. back in the day speakers valued efficiency.   

Amplifiers were often single digit watts.

JR

PS: I recall messing with a solid state knightkit amp (30W?) back in the 60's that looked very much like a tube design using interstage transformers, but with early transistors literally dropped in place of the tubes.. (not very clever).

 
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Art Welter on February 08, 2018, 03:06:30 pm
I heard someone recently use this trick for a guitar sound, unfortunately you end up with multiple delays and a very filtered sound so I suspect even if it were tried, it was likely unsuccessful, at least in terms of a standard delay.  Soundwise it was reminiscent of several tannoy horns around a school field with added resonance and top rolling off from about 1k.
Roland,

The original 1971 Cooper Time Cube was a UREI-branded, Bill Putman/Duane H. Cooper collaborative design that used a garden-hose type tube with Shure SM-57 elements as send and receive transducers.
It could do 14ms, 16ms or a combined 30ms delay, and did not sound much like your description, which may have been using too much hose..

The Cooper Time Cube was not commercially very successful, about 1000 units made, tape based delays like the Echoplex and later Roland "Space Echo" were more flexible and portable, and not prone to acoustical feedback in loud environments.

Art
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Art Welter on February 08, 2018, 03:44:12 pm
Knowing my dad (not as much as I'd like), I suspect it was a commercial box, not hifi... Did Klipsch use cast iron segmented horns, I seem to recall some pretty wood segmented horns? 
JR,
I have yet to encounter a cast iron horn, though cast aluminum horns with big Alnico drivers can seem heavy enough that you would think they were made of iron.

Altec-Lansing multi-cell horns were made of sheet iron (the throat adapters were made from non-ferrous metals) and backed with a tar coat, so gave the appearance of cast iron.

Don't recall any Klipsch segmented horns.
"Smith" DSH (distributed source horn) segmented horns were often made with very pretty wood, though the standard JBL version used MDF and pine.

Plans for the DSH were in the January 1951 Popular Mechanics magazine, there were probably thousands made in workshops all over the world, some used on top of Karlson cabinets, plans for the 12" in the July 1958 issue.

Art
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 08, 2018, 03:53:04 pm
Roland,

The original 1971 Cooper Time Cube was a UREI-branded, Bill Putman/Duane H. Cooper collaborative design that used a garden-hose type tube with Shure SM-57 elements as send and receive transducers.
It could do 14ms, 16ms or a combined 30ms delay, and did not sound much like your description, which may have been using too much hose..

The Cooper Time Cube was not commercially very successful, about 1000 units made, tape based delays like the Echoplex and later Roland "Space Echo" were more flexible and portable, and not prone to acoustical feedback in loud environments.

Art
Yup old school "acoustic" time delay, sounded pretty much like you would expect.

======

@ Art, yes horn could have been cast aluminum, but was painted so hard to tell... I would lean toward Altec Lansing, based on my dad's connections with early movie stuff... at the time he was working for RCA as a recording engineer but we also had a Muzak receiver hooked up to the hifi system from another of his sundry industry jobs. In the basement I found an old western Electric amplifier (dad worked there too). A 19" eia rack several feet high making probably single digit watts. 

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Art Welter on February 08, 2018, 06:08:23 pm
Art, yes horn could have been cast aluminum, but was painted so hard to tell... I would lean toward Altec Lansing, based on my dad's connections with early movie stuff... at the time he was working for RCA as a recording engineer but we also had a Muzak receiver hooked up to the hifi system from another of his sundry industry jobs. In the basement I found an old western Electric amplifier (dad worked there too). A 19" eia rack several feet high making probably single digit watts. 

JR
JR,
With a Western Electric amp in the basement, working for RCA, the speakers could have been (relatively) old RCA.
Western Electric and RCA were the real deal in early theater loudspeaker systems, JBL (James B. Lansing) and later Altec-Lansing (All the Techs from Lansing) just copied and made incremental improvements on RCA/Western Electric designs.

As usual, nothing changes too much ;^).

Art
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Stephen Kirby on February 08, 2018, 10:38:21 pm
If you think cast iron is bad, the guy who made my band's PA in the mid '70s made some horns out of concrete.  Concept was that they wouldn't ring as much as cast aluminum.  We had his prototypes.  250lbs each.  He pared it down to a bit under 200 for the ones he did concerts with in the Honolulu International Center arena.  Moving those every night.  ::)
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Dave Pluke on February 09, 2018, 05:36:59 pm
... made incremental improvements on RCA/Western Electric designs.

I had a pair of those giant RCA horns and drivers for awhile.  Traded them for some other stuff I don't use....

Guess some audiophiles still value them.

Dave
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 09, 2018, 10:42:53 pm
Roland,

The original 1971 Cooper Time Cube was a UREI-branded, Bill Putman/Duane H. Cooper collaborative design that used a garden-hose type tube with Shure SM-57 elements as send and receive transducers.
It could do 14ms, 16ms or a combined 30ms delay, and did not sound much like your description, which may have been using too much hose..

The Cooper Time Cube was not commercially very successful, about 1000 units made, tape based delays like the Echoplex and later Roland "Space Echo" were more flexible and portable, and not prone to acoustical feedback in loud environments.

Art

I just Googled that, inside the the "Time Cube" looked like a science fair project.

You can buy it as a plug in now.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 10, 2018, 09:31:45 am
I just Googled that, inside the the "Time Cube" looked like a science fair project.
It was what it was. Pure delay was hard to come by back in the day... A spring reverb would give you maybe 25-30mSec of initial delay but then all those repeats. Tape echo was probably the highest quality delay but far from easy to use.
Quote
You can buy it as a plug in now.
Now operating in the digital domain, with dirt cheap memory, delay is essentially free. The first digital delay sold by a Dr Lee of MIT (Lexicon) cost something like $5,000 for 20mSec with not many bits or bandwidth but you always have to start somewhere.

I did a lot of work with charge coupled devices (like bucket brigade chips) to make analog delays. These ruled the roost until digital delay got less expensive (anyone remember delta modulation?).

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 10, 2018, 09:50:53 am
It was what it was. Pure delay was hard to come by back in the day... A spring reverb would give you maybe 25-30mSec of initial delay but then all those repeats. Tape echo was probably the highest quality delay but far from easy to use. Now operating in the digital domain, with dirt cheap memory, delay is essentially free. The first digital delay sold by a Dr Lee of MIT (Lexicon) cost something like $5,000 for 20mSec with not many bits or bandwidth but you always have to start somewhere.

I did a lot of work with charge coupled devices (like bucket brigade chips) to make analog delays. These ruled the roost until digital delay got less expensive (anyone remember delta modulation?).

JR


Something inside me wants to build a Time Cube like device just to say I tried/did! Like I have free time to do that these days!

Years ago I built a bucket brigade delay out of a project book, it kind of worked when I finished it and passed something that sounded like audio.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 10, 2018, 10:03:20 am

Something inside me wants to build a Time Cube like device just to say I tried/did! Like I have free time to do that these days!

Years ago I built a bucket brigade delay out of a project book, it kind of worked when I finished it and passed something that sounded like audio.
I published a BBD delay kit in Popular electronics in 1976.

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 10, 2018, 07:16:59 pm
I published a BBD delay kit in Popular electronics in 1976.

JR
I remember that.  I really wanted to build one, and I didn't know why---- :)  It just seemed like a cool idea.

I used to read every issue cover to cover.

In fact, you could find me at the local college on weekend nights, down in the basement, in a far corner, reading microfish issues of old electronic magazines from years past, making copies at 5cent ea.

I still have some of those in a box somewhere.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Ron Hebbard on February 10, 2018, 10:07:20 pm
I remember that.  I really wanted to build one, and I didn't know why---- :)  It just seemed like a cool idea.

I used to read every issue cover to cover.

In fact, you could find me at the local college on weekend nights, down in the basement, in a far corner, reading microfiche issues of old electronic magazines from years past, making copies at 5 cents ea.

I still have some of those in a box somewhere.
Have you still got all of your 'Carl and Jerry' stories?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: brian maddox on February 11, 2018, 12:11:14 pm
I remember that.  I really wanted to build one, and I didn't know why---- :)  It just seemed like a cool idea.

I used to read every issue cover to cover.

In fact, you could find me at the local college on weekend nights, down in the basement, in a far corner, reading microfish issues of old electronic magazines from years past, making copies at 5cent ea.

I still have some of those in a box somewhere.

Of all the various ways in which my 18 year old daughter has it so much better than 18 year old me did, i think access to information is by far the most significant area.

If you wanted to know the history of the Roman Empire, it was fairly easy to find all you needed at your local library.  But if your pursuits were at all outside of the mainstream [i.e. Everything That I Cared About At All] it was SO difficult to gain access to ANY information about it.

This did breed in me an ability to figure things out The Hard Way [i.e. break it and then figure out how to UnBreak it], so maybe it was good for me in a way.  But man was it ever frustrating.

I Do still remember when i got my hands on my first Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook from, yes, my Public Library.  I paid a few late fees on that puppy until i basically had it memorized...
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Riley Casey on February 11, 2018, 12:51:04 pm
I still have a copy of Mix Magazine from the mid 70s that had a five page primer on the math of decibel conversion, voltage gain, all the fun stuff that was difficult to mine from electrical engineering texts from EE courses I wasn't taking.

 
...  But if your pursuits were at all outside of the mainstream [i.e. Everything That I Cared About At All] it was SO difficult to gain access to ANY information about it.

...
I Do still remember when i got my hands on my first Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook from, yes, my Public Library.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 11, 2018, 04:35:53 pm
Of all the various ways in which my 18 year old daughter has it so much better than 18 year old me did, i think access to information is by far the most significant area.
and the youts don't appreciate it.  ::)
Quote
If you wanted to know the history of the Roman Empire, it was fairly easy to find all you needed at your local library.  But if your pursuits were at all outside of the mainstream [i.e. Everything That I Cared About At All] it was SO difficult to gain access to ANY information about it.
you'd have to ask an old person. (I had two older brothers and they were somewhat helpful, while not very accomodating. I got better help from their college roomates when they visited the homestead.)
Quote
This did breed in me an ability to figure things out The Hard Way [i.e. break it and then figure out how to UnBreak it], so maybe it was good for me in a way.  But man was it ever frustrating.

I Do still remember when i got my hands on my first Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook from, yes, my Public Library.  I paid a few late fees on that puppy until i basically had it memorized...
Not to burst your bubble but that was a marketing exercise and yamaha copied the former EV Bible (IIRC?).

JR
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: brian maddox on February 11, 2018, 07:41:56 pm
and the youts don't appreciate it.  ::)you'd have to ask an old person. (I had two older brothers and they were somewhat helpful, while not very accomodating. I got better help from their college roomates when they visited the homestead.)Not to burst your bubble but that was a marketing exercise and yamaha copied the former EV Bible (IIRC?).

JR

Bubble still intact.  Obviously It was a marketing exercise. I was never under any illusions otherwise.  😀  I was just so happy to find actual useful information on even the most basic of things. Especially since I had no older anythings to pry knowledge from.

Although I thought the Yamaha SR HB came out earlier in the 80ís. But I think I was too busy in the early 80ís breaking and rebuilding old chevys to spend time breaking sound gear.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Chris Hindle on February 12, 2018, 12:26:32 pm
and the youts don't appreciate it.  ::)you'd have to ask an old person. (I had two older brothers and they were somewhat helpful, while not very accomodating. I got better help from their college roomates when they visited the homestead.)Not to burst your bubble but that was a marketing exercise and yamaha copied the former EV Bible (IIRC?).

JR
I have 10 or 11"issues" of the EV Bible....
It was good marketing for EV, nowhere near the info that the Yammi book provided.
I got the feeling that the issues i had were the only issues available.
And yes, I did learn something from them.
And the Yammi book, and so may other books.
LOOOONG before google became the acceptable way of gathering questionable "facts"....
Chris.
Title: Re: Nuremburg Ralley PA ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 09, 2018, 01:05:21 pm
I published a BBD delay kit in Popular electronics in 1976.

JR

I remember that!  At one point I seriously considered building it but was distracted with college.