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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: Nate Howell on November 23, 2014, 10:58:16 am

Title: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on November 23, 2014, 10:58:16 am
I am considering investing in an L Acoustics Kara line array.
I like the idea of easy portability with the single 18" subs. Much of my current work will be for electronic events where I may not need a large amount of tops to fill a room, (perhaps 3 kara tops per side) but the bass requirement will be more than normal for say, a live music show. 

Much of this work and setup will be performed by 1 person (myself).

I have also been told by a dealer that (2) SB18 will have slightly more output than (1) SB28.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 23, 2014, 10:06:53 pm
I am considering investing in an L Acoustics Kara line array.
I like the idea of easy portability with the single 18" subs. Much of my current work will be for electronic events where I may not need a large amount of tops to fill a room, (perhaps 3 kara tops per side) but the bass requirement will be more than normal for say, a live music show. 

Much of this work and setup will be performed by 1 person (myself).

I have also been told by a dealer that (2) SB18 will have slightly more output than (1) SB28.

Thoughts?

You need enough line array to cover the depth and height of the "audience geometry."  3 per side will be woefully ineffective in doing so for all but the most compact of audience areas.

Line array systems do NOT work like you are accustomed to using traditional "point and shoot" loudspeakers.  You would be better served by almost any such professional speaker and probably pay less, too.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on November 23, 2014, 10:33:38 pm
From memory, the 28's are tuned to give deeper extension rather than highest SPL.

The way I understand it, and could be off here, is that the 18's are intended to be flown with the tops, to extend the low corner.  No haystack, just flat to around 45 Hz or so, fed from the main bus.  Then the 28's are fed from an aux, haystacked, and used more for an effect.

3 KARA per hang is not a line array, sounds like you need a good point source system instead. 
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Richard Turner on November 24, 2014, 01:12:37 am
http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-kara-85.html
http://www.l-acoustics.com/admin/product_files/EN_KARA_SPS_EN_2-1.pdf

I think you will find once you get deeper into the purchase process they will pressure you to take the training seminar and purchase the complete system, 12/4 plus flyware and processing and amplifaction as well as 3d modelling software.....

But I could certainly be incorrect in that.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on November 25, 2014, 09:17:36 pm
From memory, the 28's are tuned to give deeper extension rather than highest SPL.

The way I understand it, and could be off here, is that the 18's are intended to be flown with the tops, to extend the low corner.  No haystack, just flat to around 45 Hz or so, fed from the main bus.  Then the 28's are fed from an aux, haystacked, and used more for an effect.

3 KARA per hang is not a line array, sounds like you need a good point source system instead.


I understand that 3 Kara is not what is recommended for flying the system.
However, I already have point source boxes, and I want to get into a line array.

The events that I do for electronic music are somewhat unique in that I need wide horizontal, but not so much vertical. Many of the places are bars, or warehouse parties with low ceilings, but wide area for dancing.

My thoughts were to maybe stack 3-4 kara on top of 2-3 subs per side.
If I stick with the kara system, (Or any versatile line array), I can simply add to it as I get other work.
There is plenty of outdoor concerts, and events where line arrays are specd, and I am quite sure I can get some of the work.

On the other hand, if I just buy a few 12" or 15" boxes, (even L Acoustics), I highly doubt I would rent them as often as needed, because the rider work is going to ask for a line array, and I won't have one.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on November 25, 2014, 09:20:55 pm
http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-kara-85.html
http://www.l-acoustics.com/admin/product_files/EN_KARA_SPS_EN_2-1.pdf

I think you will find once you get deeper into the purchase process they will pressure you to take the training seminar and purchase the complete system, 12/4 plus flyware and processing and amplifaction as well as 3d modelling software.....

But I could certainly be incorrect in that.

Yes, depending on the size of a system, one dealer already mentioned that L Acoustics requires you to be trained on any of the K systems.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Richard Turner on November 26, 2014, 06:55:05 pm
I think as you go further into the purchase process you will likely be steered towards the ARCS product which is a constant curve system. Then again I don't know much.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 26, 2014, 07:44:26 pm

I understand that 3 Kara is not what is recommended for flying the system.
However, I already have point source boxes, and I want to get into a line array.

The events that I do for electronic music are somewhat unique in that I need wide horizontal, but not so much vertical. Many of the places are bars, or warehouse parties with low ceilings, but wide area for dancing.

My thoughts were to maybe stack 3-4 kara on top of 2-3 subs per side.
If I stick with the kara system, (Or any versatile line array), I can simply add to it as I get other work.
There is plenty of outdoor concerts, and events where line arrays are specd, and I am quite sure I can get some of the work.

On the other hand, if I just buy a few 12" or 15" boxes, (even L Acoustics), I highly doubt I would rent them as often as needed, because the rider work is going to ask for a line array, and I won't have one.

I think you need to understand that 3 pieces of a "line array" stacked on a subwoofer is LESS of a system that almost any professional tarp box rig.  If you do this I expect your subsequent post to be about kick bins... because 3 pieces of Kara doesn't have the meat from 80-160Hz that you will probably need.

3 boxes is not a line array, either.  It's 3 boxes.. maybe a "dash" rather than a "line".  There are uses for dash arrays but ground stacked on top of subs ain't one of them.  Seriously, and that's regardless of EDM or live bands or talking head corporates.

I strongly suggest you have your l'Acoustic dealer work up some coverage predictions based on stacking 3 vs flying the Kara, and have them do some predictions with the ARCS products (as Richard T suggests), based on the common audience geometries you work with.

I'm not a purist, I've put up some too-little and just-enough line array and know what that sounds like.  At the quality level you want to play at, it's not prudent to have too little to cover your audience.  I also understand that many forms of EDM emphasize the LF/ELF and in terms of thermal and SPL resources the top 7 octaves require far less, but that does not mean that those top 7 octaves should not cover the same audience area as the subwoofers, side to side and front to back.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Minka Matikainen on November 27, 2014, 12:58:26 pm

I understand that 3 Kara is not what is recommended for flying the system.
However, I already have point source boxes, and I want to get into a line array.

The events that I do for electronic music are somewhat unique in that I need wide horizontal, but not so much vertical. Many of the places are bars, or warehouse parties with low ceilings, but wide area for dancing.

My thoughts were to maybe stack 3-4 kara on top of 2-3 subs per side.
If I stick with the kara system, (Or any versatile line array), I can simply add to it as I get other work.
There is plenty of outdoor concerts, and events where line arrays are specd, and I am quite sure I can get some of the work.

On the other hand, if I just buy a few 12" or 15" boxes, (even L Acoustics), I highly doubt I would rent them as often as needed, because the rider work is going to ask for a line array, and I won't have one.

I was working as systemtech and did last summer multiple festivals' 2nd / 3rd stages with following rig:
18 pcs KARA (9/side) and 12 pcs SB28s (mono sum)

If you try to do anything more than a normal bar, 3 KARAs will not be suffifient. And it is not about the SPL they'll put out, but more importantly you will not be able to cover the whole audience.

What comes to your original post, unless you really intent to fly some of the subs, I would go with SB28s. Problem is however that there is no factory made bumber for those, so you need to figure out how to secure the M-BUMP (I would not recommend to go on with the MINI** ones, if you are thinking of expanding the system) on those to be used with KARA.

Even if 2 pcs of SB18 would perhaps put a slight amount of extra SPL over SB28, the low end extension on SB28s is better. And if you are really looking for 4 pcs of SB28s and 6 KARAs, you'll have the same ratio between KARA and subs as I did last summer, and I never ran out of bass... ...but still, I would recommend to invest more money on more KARAs. Three pcs is really lame and could, perhaps, be suitable as a sidefills for a rock festival stage.

e: missed my signing...

Br,
-Minka-
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on November 28, 2014, 04:10:15 pm
Hmmm...so lets look at this a little differently.
Here is a typical gig that I have done in the past.....you can post your thoughts on what would be best.

Small warehouse party.
400-500 people.
Only 2 main speakers were used. 12" woofer type.
3 subs.

It could have used more bass, and better horizontal coverage.
Stage area was about 45-50 ft wide.
Crowd area was bout 60-70 ft deep.
Mains were placed about 30 ft apart, and angled in slightly. There was a definite lack of mid/highs in the middle of the stage, right where the subs were, and also on the outer edges of the dancefloor.

Assuming that I were to invest in a line array, but could NOT hang the array, and only option was to stack on subs, would I not have much better luck with the wider horizontal coverage?  Stacking 3-4 Kara on top of 2-3 subs would get the speakers at a decent height.

What is the alternative? 3 tops along the front stage? 4 tops? lobes? coverage issues? More dead spots?

For my smallest gigs, I dont plan to use the line array anyways. Like I mentioned, I already have regular type speakers boxes....both Coax type and conventional. 
But for wider rooms, warehouses, and bigger outdoor gigs, I would think the line array makes sense.  I am quite sure that I am not going to get rental work from the concerts that come through if all I have is 4 standard speaker boxes and a stack of subs. 

I am already the "little guy" that not many people have heard of. One way to change that is to have a system that is in high demand, no?


Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on November 28, 2014, 08:30:36 pm
My 2 cents.
First of all, have you heard the Kara system in a 4 boxes per side deployment?
Yes it is a respectable brand, yes it can sound very good, but.. it is not a very loud box. Forget the spec and marketing figures stated there. They are quite optimistic.
Second, how do you plan on bidding for more work and get in the concert world gigs with 3 boxes per side?
Regardless of the fact that you have a rider acceptable rig you wont get the work because of the lack of rig.
Third, Kara works with the LA84 amps and has a dsp setting made for a minimum of 4 boxes. So you will be having difficult time getting the system sounding right because the settings are not adjustable.

So you either bite the bullet and get enough boxes from the start, or look for other alternative.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on November 29, 2014, 12:39:58 am
My 2 cents.
First of all, have you heard the Kara system in a 4 boxes per side deployment?
Yes it is a respectable brand, yes it can sound very good, but.. it is not a very loud box. Forget the spec and marketing figures stated there. They are quite optimistic.
Second, how do you plan on bidding for more work and get in the concert world gigs with 3 boxes per side?
Regardless of the fact that you have a rider acceptable rig you wont get the work because of the lack of rig.
Third, Kara works with the LA84 amps and has a dsp setting made for a minimum of 4 boxes. So you will be having difficult time getting the system sounding right because the settings are not adjustable.

So you either bite the bullet and get enough boxes from the start, or look for other alternative.

No , not yet. I was supposed to demo them last week but had to re-schedule.
Bigger concert work would require more boxes...6 or more per side. (I would just buy more boxes)

As for the LA8, wouldn't you just run all 6 Kara (3 per side) on one LA8, and the 4 SB28, or 8 SB18 subs off another LA8?

Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: David Morison on November 29, 2014, 05:14:19 am

I am already the "little guy" that not many people have heard of. One way to change that is to have a system that is in high demand, no?

Not if you don't have enough of it to meet other peoples expectations of what a rig like that should be able to do, rather than just your own, no.

Nothing will lose you work faster than disappointing higher-end clients.

If you're limited by budget/logistics/stacking vs flying type issues, and want to stay L'Acoustics, I'd add a vote for ARCS as a more sensible place to start.

HTH,
David.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on November 29, 2014, 08:48:55 am
If the budget is not enough i would say go for a used D-Vdosc system and get enough boxes right from the start.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 30, 2014, 03:13:36 am
Not if you don't have enough of it to meet other peoples expectations of what a rig like that should be able to do, rather than just your own, no.

Nothing will lose you work faster than disappointing higher-end clients.

If you're limited by budget/logistics/stacking vs flying type issues, and want to stay L'Acoustics, I'd add a vote for ARCS as a more sensible place to start.

HTH,
David.

Nate, this is where I was headed - too little gear will either result in no outside work or "one-time-only" clients that were disappointed with the results of too little of a good thing...

I think it admirable that you want to have a premium brand for your own shows and to offer on hire, but one of the key things to remember is that a sound system is a tool used to make money (and in a secondary sense, to make "art").  It's not a big personal stereo system, particularly if we're making brand decisions based on the needs of or usefulness to others.

You need Enough Rig for the GigŪ to not have disappointed hire clients, let alone disappoint your audiences when producing your own events.

We do a couple of EDM gigs where we use 4 line array tops - JBL VerTec 4889 - and 6 SRX728 or VT4880 subs, per side.  The box count for the tops is not arbitrary, it's what will cover the audience area with reasonable consistency WHEN FLOWN.  If it were stacked it would not cover significantly better that the ground-stacked pSeudo-4 rig it replaced and would absolutely kill the audience up front.

Vertical arrays are something that need to be "born fully formed".  From a commercial standpoint you really can't grow your market while buying on the "box a month plan."  You need enough boxes to do the gigs RIGHT, the first time, or you won't be doing another show for that client.  How many do you need?  That's why I suggested you figure out how deep, wide, and tall (floor slope, balcony, etc) the audience areas you now cover or expect to cover, and have your dealer model the coverage in l'Acoustic's software (SoundVision, IIRC)  with different quantities of tops, trim heights, etc.  Once you know how much PA this is going to take you can look at your finances and see if some realignment is in order...

That said, if you buy a Kara rig you WILL be taking the training.  That's a good thing as vertical arrays are not necessarily intuitive and IMHO are easier to screw up.  l'Acoustic has a vested interest in you knowing their products and using them correctly - their reputation depends on users properly deploying their systems.

Count on needing a way to suspend a vertical array (or lift a conventional speaker system, everything sounds better up in the air) to a meaningful trim height.  Count on needed more power amps/processing than you originally assume (to "circuit" the PA in a manner that gives you more control).   Count on needing an electrical power distribution system, and racks/cabling/misc to run it all.

It's a big deal, Nate.  There's not really a good way to do this on the cheap without risking client satisfaction, safety or both.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Minka Matikainen on November 30, 2014, 06:11:19 am
Small warehouse party.
400-500 people.
Only 2 main speakers were used. 12" woofer type.
3 subs.

For this size of an event, you'll be struggling with just 3 KARAs / side. You might be good with 4, depending on the room, but you would be OK with 5/side... ...and for that you'll need another LA8 and it just makes sense to go for 6/side, which will do the job for you, but is of course, if not double, at least close to it, amount of money...

It could have used more bass, and better horizontal coverage.
Stage area was about 45-50 ft wide.
Crowd area was bout 60-70 ft deep.
Mains were placed about 30 ft apart, and angled in slightly. There was a definite lack of mid/highs in the middle of the stage, right where the subs were, and also on the outer edges of the dancefloor.

Well... Line array as it's own will not necessarily solve this problem. I used to use last summer 2 stacks of KIVAs as 2 pcs per stack as frontfills...

...Last weekend I was doing a smaller inside corporate event (450pax) and the program consisted of speech and band playing at the end of the night. For speeches I had delay speakers (108P) and the main system was SB28 in vertical direction and on top of that 1 KILO and 4 KIVAs, with KIBU secured to SB28. KILO was there to fill a bit between SB28 and KIVAs but especially to get the KIVAs a bit higher...

Stage was 8m (26ft?) wide and I had the main system spread just outside the stage, so the distance between centerlines was approx 8,5m (28ft?). KIVA has a horizontal coverage of 100 degrees while KARA has 110 degrees... ..and there was NO way I could have covered the front of the stage with just KIVAs, but I needed to add 2 pcs of 108Ps, one per side, tilted a bit inwards to do the trick.

Even with KARA I would not have been able to do it... ...so using line array would not solve the problem in you case...

...ok, to be fair, the audience had access to approx 40cm (a bit more than 1ft?) from the stage...

Assuming that I were to invest in a line array, but could NOT hang the array, and only option was to stack on subs, would I not have much better luck with the wider horizontal coverage?  Stacking 3-4 Kara on top of 2-3 subs would get the speakers at a decent height.

3 pcs of SB18 makes a decent height for KARA to be stacked on top of it, and you'll still get a good angle, and if you are not going to fly them, despide my own comment earlier, I would go with SB18 because of factory made bumber.

I have been successful in clubs for roughly 700 - 900 pax with a setup where I had 4 pcs of SB18 as subs / side and 6 KARAs on top of those as ground stack / side + i.e. 2 HiQs as front fills near the KARA stacks aimed a bit inwards.

What is the alternative? 3 tops along the front stage? 4 tops? lobes? coverage issues? More dead spots?

A good alternative, as suggested, for tops would be ARCS. Problem with ARCS is that you need to have those on top of an extension rod attached to subs, because you can't get enough negative angle from top of 3 SB18s, or you end up too low with 2 SB18s... ...I've used ARCS so that I've had it on top of extension rod, which has been attached to SB18, which has been secured to the bottom SB18. So the system was 2 SB18s and 1 ARCS WIDE / side. Obviously this is not for bigger audiences / loud levels, but works for i.e. 200-300pax quite okay...
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on December 04, 2014, 09:16:27 pm
Well, the more I think about this whole thing, the more I am confused as what to do.

As mentioned, I already have some top boxes,(Yorkville and Bassmaxx).
The problem is, they sound completely different, so I cant really use them together.
The Yorkville are 15" woofer boxes. They are old. I plan to keep them and still use them as dj monitors, but not use them as mains.
The Bassmaxx/Bassboss are 12" woofer / Co-ax boxes.
My subs are Bassmaxx/bassboss as well.

So, my thought was to invest in a system and brand that is high end, and rider friendly.
I also wanted to pick a system that I could build upon, by adding more equipment of the same type as I get more work, etc.

As of right now, 95% of my work is House / techno events.
This is because I am a dj, and have been in this scene for quite some time.

However, I would like to branch out and do other work.
For my current gigs, just about any setup would work.  Quite frankly, I could buy 8 QSC subs and a few tops from GC and call it a day. Most of the people at the events would not know any better, but I would, and I would hate myself for it.
In fact, I cant stand all the other sound systems around here because they start with cheap equipment, and then they are deployed improperly, or without any care, tuning, or room treatment whatsoever.

So, my plan is to change that.  I know that you cant change room acoustics very well in a 2-4 hour period of setup time, but you can control how YOUR rig sounds.

I have already made a big impression with the Bassboss gear that I've been using.
It is a small system though, and I usually get the side room gigs, or small 1-room events.

So, where to go from here?

OPTION 1.  I can buy a stack of Bassboss subs, and another pair of speakers.
This gets me a little more work, but nothing on the "pro" level. 
The jazz festivals that come through don't want bassboss. They want L acoustics, d&B.

For the larger concerts that come through, some of them are a little more open to what is available.  I have seen L Acoustics, JBL, EAW, etc.  But to my knowledge, there is only one place anywhere near me that uses L Acoustics, and most of their stuff is old. (dvdosc)

OPTION 2.  Danley. Get a stack of th118 or dbh218, and 2-4 tops.
They sound great, but again, I am not sure that this is going to get me cross rental, or jazz festival/concert work.

OPTION 3. L Acoustics. PROS- I love LA. I love the way they sound, and always have. Something about them just gives me chills. Every time I have heard them, the tonal quality has been amazing. Outdoor events, indoor events, concerts, casinos, etc.

Kara? Bite the bullet and empty my pockets for this rider friendly system, while I smirk happily knowing I own my dream system, and yet pulling my hair out at the same time hoping I can rent it enough to pay for it.
Arcs? Great sound, can be used sort of like a line array. Not as popular as kara?
CONS - Cost.


Option 4. D&B. I really don't feel like this is worth exploring. From what I know, they are mostly 2nd or 3rd on riders, and cost more than LA.

OPTION 5. Alcons.
PROS - Every bit of research I have done points to these as being a spectacular product. The people in charge in the US are amazing to deal with on a personal level.
They offer a few small arrays that might work very well for my need  (LR7, LR14, LR16)
I was leaning towards LR16m and I believe I could use it as a vertical type speaker because the waveguide is rotatable. Anyone have experience with this?   CONS- No one has heard of them, and chance for cross - rental is basically non existent.

OPTION 6. Funktion One. 
PROS - Recognized everywhere in electronic music land. I am sure I could get a decent amount of work with a rig like this.
CONS - I think this would embed me into dance music only. I dont see corporate gigs or jazz using these either.

OPTION 7. Void Acoustics.
Pros - Amazing sound. Some of the best dance music systems I have heard...however, the person that tuned the systems (that I listened to) is a wizard. I am quite sure he could make anything sound great. 
Again, I am sure this would embed me into the dance music gigs even more, but not so much any other type of gig. 

Option 7. Martin Audio. W8** line array
PROS - decent price. Could get more top boxes for the same price as Kara
CONS - Amps, processing, and rigging appear just as expensive, or more than LA.
Not as rider friendly in the US.

Thoughts? I could really use some guidance.
Thanks for all the replies so far - I appreciate it.

Nate
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Richard Turner on December 04, 2014, 10:21:34 pm
Theres more to Funktion one than the dance stack system.

The thing is though if you blow your budget on 1/2 of an l'accoustics KARA rig its still not going to win you jobs at the Jazz fest and talking heads gigs,

you still need cases,

something to lift it safely off the ground with,

a truck big enough to move it all around with,

enough smoke and light to make a show for EDM gigs

ownership or reliable rental access to mixer that is rider friendly, doubtful an X32 will make the cut for multi input gigs


Maybe the QSC would be less of a buy in and something that week in week out would see more use? Anything thats earning its warehouse space (or so much in demand it does not need any)is worth owning.

 
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: chuck clark on December 05, 2014, 12:44:13 am
As the Kara is a dual 8" box, with only 3 per side your output and pattern control will most likely be lacking in the low mid/ hi-bass region.  With only 3 per side you would be better off w/ a dual 10" box like Turboflex. You will want to eventually have 4 Turboflex or 6 Kara per side for a surprisingly capable compact PA.  There are other names out there making excellent boxes of roughly equivalent size and capability but the total cone area and physical height of ANY line array will tend to act in a similar manner in the low mid region.  Since the size of the source must equal at least 1/4 wavelength of the tone being produced to have any significant control over the directionality of the wave propagation we can see that the nameplate on the box does not change the laws of physics.  Best of luck to you!
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Minka Matikainen on December 06, 2014, 06:32:34 am
I would choose KARA myself, but I would do anythng to double the budget... 3/side is not a lot, especially if you're doing EDM. For a small (less than 300 pax) jazz club it would perhaps do the trick...
As what it comes to d&b the V-system would be in same ball park, but at least here it costs more than KARA.

I also work quite a lot with d&b products, and my honest opinion is that you should not deploy any linearray with just 3 boxes / side. With that amount you don't have the needed control over the system's acoustic characteristics. I always, no matter which systen, try to aim for at least 5 boxes/side.

But if you can get 6pcs of KARA and at least 4pcs of SB18 / side you would have a decent rig to different situations.

As you pointed out KARA is rider friendly and easily scalable (it can be used even as downfill for K1/K2). And if you decide to do it properly and get the M-Bump and M-bar you're good to fly it also, if needed... ...however you would not need the M-bar for groundstacking, but I still recommend to have it...

If I was you, I would take a look with bank on financing, if you could get more, and at the same time discuss with the company having dVDosc whether they would be willing to co-operate with you and if in the best case you could both get some KARA and subhire those to each other, when you need bigger system...

Just my 2 European cents...
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Simon Ryder on December 06, 2014, 08:16:30 pm

As what it comes to d&b the V-system would be in same ball park, but at least here it costs more than KARA.


V is a bigger, more powerful box than Kara.

The D&B equivalent to Kara is the Y series - it is probably more in line cost wise as well.

As for stacking 3 tops a side on subs, yes you can do it. You need to be aware though that the frequency response of ANY proper line array cabinet when measured on its own is very, very HF heavy. It is only when deployed in long enough lines that the mid bass couples enough to keep up with the HF. Therefore you will need to EQ quite heavily to compensate for this. Armed with a little knowledge, you can make 3 boxes a side sound good but it will require some tweeking.

Title: Low frequency buildup
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 06, 2014, 08:25:33 pm
You need to be aware though that the frequency response of ANY proper line array cabinet when measured on its own is very, very HF heavy.

While this is generally true, it is not always true. As an example, Meyer Sound line array elements are fairly flat, and need low frequency conturing from a Galileo to compensate for low frequency buildup in arrays. You have to tell the Galileo how many of what boxes you are using to get the right curve.

Mac
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Minka Matikainen on December 07, 2014, 11:05:58 am
V is a bigger, more powerful box than Kara.

The D&B equivalent to Kara is the Y series - it is probably more in line cost wise as well.

You're right. V is closer to KUDO and Y is a bit "smaller" than KARA, but more comparable. Sorry for the misinformation. I totally forgot the whole Y, because the ones I work with are J-, V- and Q- and of course E-series. Q is somewhere between KILO and KARA and therfore I've used to compare both, KUDO and KARA to V, which might not be fair to some of the 3 but has been the "best" possible comparison...

However even the Y is expensive compared to KARA...
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 07, 2014, 12:49:05 pm

OPTION 2.  Danley. Get a stack of th118 or dbh218, and 2-4 tops.
They sound great, but again, I am not sure that this is going to get me cross rental, or jazz festival/concert work.


The cross rental concern is a issue currently (it will be less and less as time goes on).

2 TH118 are roughly equal to a single DBH218, and are much easier to move-but will cost more (for the same output).

Whatever Danley top you would choose would be great for most types of music except those wanting a particular "breakup" in the sound (ie  icepick in the forehead type sound).

I have heard it said often that the sound is not "aggressive" enough.  I will take that as a compliment.

Danley goes for the more accurate reproduction type of design, rather than trying to produce a particular type of sound for a specific music genre.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on December 09, 2014, 12:21:48 pm
I dont want aggressive sound...I want accurate and clean sound.   I think people that only mix rock shows for 2 hr blocks have a vastly different idea of what good sound is.  Some dance music events are very long....8 hours,  or more.  Keeping the levels correct,  having enough bass, but being careful not to rip peoples heads off with the highs...
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Simon Ryder on December 21, 2014, 10:05:41 am
I dont want aggressive sound...I want accurate and clean sound.   I think people that only mix rock shows for 2 hr blocks have a vastly different idea of what good sound is.  Some dance music events are very long....8 hours,  or more.  Keeping the levels correct,  having enough bass, but being careful not to rip peoples heads off with the highs...

There is of course another alternative:

Rather than go for a small number of premier tier product, go for a full system of 2nd tier product.

Try DAS Event or RCF TT55 or FBT Muse. All of them are good systems and they will get louder and lower than Kara. The subs are decent and for the same investment you will get a much larger system capable of doing larger gigs. My personal preference out of these is for the DAS Event - we are looking at buying one for our B / C rig but make sure you have a listen, check out the rigging systems etc.

I would not be surprised if you could end up with 12 tops  and 6 or 8 double 18 subs with fly gear, ground stack plates and the cabling for the same investment level as 6 kara and 6 sb18.

This may make more commercial sense and present a greater ROI.
Title: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Merlijn van Veen on December 23, 2014, 05:13:07 am
There is of course another alternative:

Rather than go for a small number of premier tier product, go for a full system of 2nd tier product.

Try DAS Event or RCF TT55 or FBT Muse. All of them are good systems and they will get louder and lower than Kara. The subs are decent and for the same investment you will get a much larger system capable of doing larger gigs. My personal preference out of these is for the DAS Event - we are looking at buying one for our B / C rig but make sure you have a listen, check out the rigging systems etc.

I would not be surprised if you could end up with 12 tops  and 6 or 8 double 18 subs with fly gear, ground stack plates and the cabling for the same investment level as 6 kara and 6 sb18.

This may make more commercial sense and present a greater ROI.

+1

BUT e.g. corporate clients care less about what brand you bring to the gig. At the same time they have A-list acts playing at the parties of these events and they don't wanna use your second tier system. This happens a lot in this corner of the world, forcing the rental company to upgrade eventually to a premier tier system. I think rider friendliness is something to keep in the back of your mind...
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Minka Matikainen on December 23, 2014, 05:53:29 am
Try DAS Event or RCF TT55 or FBT Muse. All of them are good systems and they will get louder and lower than Kara. The subs are decent and for the same investment you will get a much larger system capable of doing larger gigs. My personal preference out of these is for the DAS Event - we are looking at buying one for our B / C rig but make sure you have a listen, check out the rigging systems etc.

While DAS is pretty OK as a system, I would still like to challenge the comment on them going lower than KARA, at least without subs.

RCF and FBT I would forget and if that is the ballpark to play in, I would take a look to dbTechnologies T12 also...

None of these are KARA, but the T12 is rather OK, and it goes relatively low even without sub... ...but, you would still want to have subs with the T12 also...

A year ago I was system tech for Scooter for the gigs they did in Finland. We had as a system 16 pcs of dbTech's T12 (8 / side) and 8 pcs of S30 subs from dbTechnologies. All controlled thru DVA Network and I have nothing bad to say about the system from sound or power. It was powerful enough for the venues (average roughly 1200 pax) and had a good frequency response and went low enough also.

The cons with that system are with the fact that it is active, so you need to get the power, signal and control data cabling to every box, which is a bit laborous. It is also pretty demanding on the power quality, but if you have a good power distros, you'll be good... Also the rigging is not as nice as with KARA, or d&b Y/V/J, but you can live with it...

The main issue is that it is Italian, not a d&b or L'Acoustics and not that rider friendly...
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Simon Ryder on December 23, 2014, 05:19:06 pm
While DAS is pretty OK as a system, I would still like to challenge the comment on them going lower than KARA, at least without subs.

RCF and FBT I would forget and if that is the ballpark to play in, I would take a look to dbTechnologies T12 also...

None of these are KARA, but the T12 is rather OK, and it goes relatively low even without sub... ...but, you would still want to have subs with the T12 also...

A year ago I was system tech for Scooter for the gigs they did in Finland. We had as a system 16 pcs of dbTech's T12 (8 / side) and 8 pcs of S30 subs from dbTechnologies. All controlled thru DVA Network and I have nothing bad to say about the system from sound or power. It was powerful enough for the venues (average roughly 1200 pax) and had a good frequency response and went low enough also.

The cons with that system are with the fact that it is active, so you need to get the power, signal and control data cabling to every box, which is a bit laborous. It is also pretty demanding on the power quality, but if you have a good power distros, you'll be good... Also the rigging is not as nice as with KARA, or d&b Y/V/J, but you can live with it...

The main issue is that it is Italian, not a d&b or L'Acoustics and not that rider friendly...

DAS do many systems, some budget, some not.

That Event dual 10" definitely drops lower per cabinet than Kara. 3 or 4 per side will have a slightly louder (not necessarily cleaner) low mid / upper bass than Kara. Volume wise I suspect that there is also not much in it. The rigging system is pretty decent and the prediction software is Ease Focus.

The DB technologies gets good reviews.

The only way to be really sure is to have a look / listen.

As for the brand / rider thing.... Yes it is important, but not as important as some people would have you believe.

Unless an artist is endorsed / carrying, they will often accept all sorts of brands / kit if it means them getting a fat pay check. Sometimes they just take the money and run...

The key is having a tight operation, knowing your shit and being able to instill the artist's people with confidence in yourself, your team and your equipment.
Once that is done, you can put almost anything in front of them, so long as it sounds good and meets the job spec. Yes, one of the magic 3/4 brands is an easy sell but we all know that it really comes down to the crew rather than the kit. Trust and reliability are the key factors.

As for everyone wanting the A rig, well of course they do... The question is "Do they have the money to pay for it?" If not, they get the B/C rig. You would be surprised what caliber of artist all the big rental houses that have B/C rigs have done with their lesser systems.

Tim McCulloch is a good example here:

I believe they have a cheaper line array in stock. DB Tech or RCF IIRCC? What level of gigs does this go out on? Do you have problems with people accepting it?

I still think for the original posters market, he is probably better with a bigger system that sounds really good rather than a smaller, more premium system that struggles to keep up with many of the gigs.

Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Minka Matikainen on December 24, 2014, 04:32:15 am
DAS do many systems, some budget, some not.

That Event dual 10" definitely drops lower per cabinet than Kara. 3 or 4 per side will have a slightly louder (not necessarily cleaner) low mid / upper bass than Kara. Volume wise I suspect that there is also not much in it. The rigging system is pretty decent and the prediction software is Ease Focus.

DAS does make many systems, yes... ...and yes, SoundVision is a product to be purchased, but is a lot more capable to predict complex situations than Ease Focus.

Straight from marketing BS:
KARA freq response: 55Hz - 20 kHz
Event 210A freq. response: 70Hz - 20kHz

So please, explain how you see Event going lower?
Of course the real low limit comes to the lenght of the array, but based on specs, I would not buy that Event would go lower...

I do agree with you that perhaps this time the highend product is not necessarily the best tool for the job. Based on my experience with lower budget systems, I would recommend to get a set of dbTechnologies T12s with S30s or S20s (which is a bit tighter than S30 in my opinion) for test and listen how they would fit to the need.

I wish you all a very merry Xmas!
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on December 30, 2014, 09:32:22 am
Perhaps for my first purchase, I would be better off with 4-6 arcs wifo and a stack of subs?  This seems like it would work well for smaller gigs,  and would have enough coverage.    I cannot swing a 12 box Kara purchase,  plus subs and amps at the moment.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Jens Droessler on January 01, 2015, 01:39:04 am
If dB Technologies is in the race, I'd definitely take a look at RCF TTL33A. It's another league, a more pro product.

I didn't hear the dB Tech S30, but I know the S20 pretty well. If the S30 really is less tight than the S20, the S30 would have to be utter crap, because tight is no attribute I'd give the S20.

Perhaps for my first purchase, I would be better off with 4-6 arcs wifo and a stack of subs?  This seems like it would work well for smaller gigs,  and would have enough coverage.    I cannot swing a 12 box Kara purchase,  plus subs and amps at the moment.

Consider the usage of an Arcs system. How to stack, how to fly? Think about the height you need for the Arcs and think about how you get them up there.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on January 03, 2015, 03:56:07 pm
If dB Technologies is in the race, I'd definitely take a look at RCF TTL33A. It's another league, a more pro product.

I didn't hear the dB Tech S30, but I know the S20 pretty well. If the S30 really is less tight than the S20, the S30 would have to be utter crap, because tight is no attribute I'd give the S20.

Consider the usage of an Arcs system. How to stack, how to fly? Think about the height you need for the Arcs and think about how you get them up there.


RCF is a possibility, but I dont think db Tech is.
My top choices are L-Acoustics, d&b, Alcons, and Martin.

As for the Arcs Wifo, for smaller gigs in bars, etc, where the venue is long and skinny, I can stack 2 per side on top of subs, for 60 degree coverage each. Or pole mount horizontally for 90 deg.

Or get the subwoofer clamp /tilt mount that allows up to 4 per side to stack on top of subs.
For larger gigs, they can be flow.
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Jens Droessler on January 04, 2015, 11:06:02 am

RCF is a possibility, but I dont think db Tech is.
My top choices are L-Acoustics, d&b, Alcons, and Martin.

As for the Arcs Wifo, for smaller gigs in bars, etc, where the venue is long and skinny, I can stack 2 per side on top of subs, for 60 degree coverage each. Or pole mount horizontally for 90 deg.

Or get the subwoofer clamp /tilt mount that allows up to 4 per side to stack on top of subs.
For larger gigs, they can be flow.
What I meant is that you need a lot pf subs to get the Arcs on top of them to a decent height. You might have to bring more subs just for that matter. I'd consider that an inconvenience...
Title: Re: (8) SB18 or (4) SB 28?
Post by: Nate Howell on February 14, 2015, 12:45:49 pm
I pulled the trigger on 4 arcs wide, LA8, and 4 sb18. Cant wait for it to arrive!