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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: Scott Olewiler on November 02, 2014, 10:45:06 am

Title: What's the danger
Post by: Scott Olewiler on November 02, 2014, 10:45:06 am
I have run my entire rig off of one 20 amp edison with no issues before when I had to and don't currently own any distro nor have I run into any situations so far where I wish I did. Quite content running off wall outlets however....

 If I was to show up at a venue and the only outlet available was an L14-30P would this be safe to use? If not what's the potential danger.

http://www.amazon.com/Conntek-YL1430520S-Generator-Adapter-Connector/dp/B002MGJ2F4/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t

Thanks
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Ray Aberle on November 02, 2014, 12:49:19 pm
If I was to show up at a venue and the only outlet available was an L14-30P would this be safe to use? If not what's the potential danger.

http://www.amazon.com/Conntek-YL1430520S-Generator-Adapter-Connector/dp/B002MGJ2F4/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t

I don't see any breakers on it, so there's nothing limiting the 20A female connectors to only getting up to 20A. Since the L14-30 outlet is providing up to 30A per leg, you'd be able to pull more then the capacity of the 20A outs before the L14-30's breaker would trip.

I would not use it.
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 02, 2014, 01:14:14 pm
I have run my entire rig off of one 20 amp edison with no issues before when I had to and don't currently own any distro nor have I run into any situations so far where I wish I did. Quite content running off wall outlets however....

 If I was to show up at a venue and the only outlet available was an L14-30P would this be safe to use? If not what's the potential danger.

http://www.amazon.com/Conntek-YL1430520S-Generator-Adapter-Connector/dp/B002MGJ2F4/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t

Thanks

Is there a circuit breaker for each of the 20 amp outlets?  If no, then it's not Code.  This device is built on the assumption that the user will power only a single tool or appliance from each outlet (hence no "need" for over-current protection), but in our uses or with cube taps and other multi-outlet devices that do not have internal circuit breakers, it is possible to overload the 12 ga conductors.

Now to answer your implied question, would I use it?  Yes, if I were connecting only a single load to each receptacle.
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Keith Broughton on November 02, 2014, 02:41:59 pm
I have run my entire rig off of one 20 amp edison with no issues before when I had to and don't currently own any distro nor have I run into any situations so far where I wish I did. Quite content running off wall outlets however....

 If I was to show up at a venue and the only outlet available was an L14-30P would this be safe to use? If not what's the potential danger.

http://www.amazon.com/Conntek-YL1430520S-Generator-Adapter-Connector/dp/B002MGJ2F4/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t

Thanks
Not legal!
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Steve M Smith on November 02, 2014, 02:55:46 pm
Not legal!

Would it actually be an offence (civil or criminal) to use it or is it just not to code?


Steve.
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Ray Aberle on November 02, 2014, 03:18:33 pm
Would it actually be an offence (civil or criminal) to use it or is it just not to code?


Steve.
Not to code, and an AHJ could press an issue with it. But, if you used it, started a fire, and caused property or personal damage, you might be liable for something.
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Scott Olewiler on November 02, 2014, 04:16:33 pm
Ok, I've read enough to not attempt to use anything like this.

So if I get a distro, should it be a 50 amp? It that what you typically have available? I haven't really noticed anything other than wall outlets any where I've worked,but, OTOH, I haven't been looking for anything else either.

I assume the safest bet is to have the 50 amp distro and pigtail, and then a second 30 amp pigtail on hand? Or will I need an assortment of pigtails?
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Rob Spence on November 02, 2014, 04:42:09 pm
Ok, I've read enough to not attempt to use anything like this.

So if I get a distro, should it be a 50 amp? It that what you typically have available? I haven't really noticed anything other than wall outlets any where I've worked,but, OTOH, I haven't been looking for anything else either.

I assume the safest bet is to have the 50 amp distro and pigtail, and then a second 30 amp pigtail on hand? Or will I need an assortment of pigtails?

I would have 50a in & through with either 6 20a circuits (or for me, 4 20a & a L14-30 for my amp rack).
CS connectors for the in & through.
A CS to CS feeder cable if you need it.
A 14-50 range plug to CS cable.
A L14-30p to CS cable.

Make the cable lengths what ever you need.



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Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Thomas Lamb on November 02, 2014, 06:05:40 pm
I have run my entire rig off of one 20 amp edison with no issues before when I had to and don't currently own any distro nor have I run into any situations so far where I wish I did. Quite content running off wall outlets however....

 If I was to show up at a venue and the only outlet available was an L14-30P would this be safe to use? If not what's the potential danger.

http://www.amazon.com/Conntek-YL1430520S-Generator-Adapter-Connector/dp/B002MGJ2F4/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t

A BREAKERED distro for this is what you need. I looked on eBay and there aren't any right now. You may want to ask in the marketplace. If you are going to work at this venue often it would definately be worth it. While I wouldn't normally suggest a homebrew distro if you maybe have a friend that's an electrician the parts for something like this could be procured fairly simply and not to expensively at Home Depot.

Thanks
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Scott Olewiler on November 03, 2014, 09:54:50 am
I would have 50a in & through with either 6 20a circuits (or for me, 4 20a & a L14-30 for my amp rack).
CS connectors for the in & through.
A CS to CS feeder cable if you need it.
A 14-50 range plug to CS cable.
A L14-30p to CS cable.

Make the cable lengths what ever you need.

Thanks. excellent.
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Jay Barracato on November 03, 2014, 11:06:03 am
I agree with Rob.

Except for small generators, I think you are more likely to run into a 50 amp supply than a 30 amp supply.

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Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Ray Aberle on November 03, 2014, 11:56:11 am
I would have 50a in & through with either 6 20a circuits (or for me, 4 20a & a L14-30 for my amp rack).
CS connectors for the in & through.
A CS to CS feeder cable if you need it.
A 14-50 range plug to CS cable.
A L14-30p to CS cable.

Make the cable lengths what ever you need.

The only other thing I might add is a bare wire to CS cable, less then 10 feet. Maybe some extra 50A breakers of different manufacture for venues where you know you don't have a range plug or other convenient outlet available but you can get to the electrical panel. TEST THIS FIRST, AND ENSURE THAT YOU HAVE A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN OR OTHERWISE QUALIFIED PERSONNEL MAKE THIS CONNECTION. (Gotta cover the legalities...) DO NOT WORK IN A HOT PANEL WITHOUT PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT. I have had venues that had a spare 50A breaker, not doing anything, and we were able to make use of that breaker with our tails.
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Rob Spence on November 03, 2014, 12:41:07 pm
The only other thing I might add is a bare wire to CS cable, less then 10 feet. Maybe some extra 50A breakers of different manufacture for venues where you know you don't have a range plug or other convenient outlet available but you can get to the electrical panel. TEST THIS FIRST, AND ENSURE THAT YOU HAVE A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN OR OTHERWISE QUALIFIED PERSONNEL MAKE THIS CONNECTION. (Gotta cover the legalities...) DO NOT WORK IN A HOT PANEL WITHOUT PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT. I have had venues that had a spare 50A breaker, not doing anything, and we were able to make use of that breaker with our tails.

Ray, I should have mentioned the tails. I have one but to save money for something I use rarely I put a 14-50 range socket on it and use it with the 14-50 to CS cable.  $12 vs $90.


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Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Keith Broughton on November 03, 2014, 02:23:07 pm
Would it actually be an offence (civil or criminal) to use it or is it just not to code?


Steve.
OK...OK...It's not to code
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Cailen Waddell on November 03, 2014, 08:28:30 pm

I have run my entire rig off of one 20 amp edison with no issues before when I had to and don't currently own any distro nor have I run into any situations so far where I wish I did. Quite content running off wall outlets however....

 If I was to show up at a venue and the only outlet available was an L14-30P would this be safe to use? If not what's the potential danger.

http://www.amazon.com/Conntek-YL1430520S-Generator-Adapter-Connector/dp/B002MGJ2F4/ref=cm_cd_ql_qh_dp_t

Thanks

Everyone has said don't use it.  Now - here is a place I might use it.  One of our smaller b rigs has a motion labs distro with 2 20a PowerCon inputs, Edison out on the rear.  Each circuit is breakered.  I could see using it to power this distro as there is over current protection in the distro.  But the flip side is that I can't think of a situation where I would find an l14-30 but not 2 20a ccts. 


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Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Ray Aberle on November 03, 2014, 08:34:52 pm
Everyone has said don't use it.  Now - here is a place I might use it.  One of our smaller b rigs has a motion labs distro with 2 20a PowerCon inputs, Edison out on the rear.  Each circuit is breakered.  I could see using it to power this distro as there is over current protection in the distro.  But the flip side is that I can't think of a situation where I would find an l14-30 but not 2 20a ccts. 

Yeah, and that overcurrent protection is what matters. It's where it can do some good: it will trip a breaker before burning out the plugs (hopefully). Not in the BEST place, but still helping.
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Cailen Waddell on November 03, 2014, 08:36:06 pm

Yeah, and that overcurrent protection is what matters. It's where it can do some good: it will trip a breaker before burning out the plugs (hopefully). Not in the BEST place, but still helping.

Yup - and that 1' of cable and connector without over current protection would probably keep me from using it. 


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Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on November 03, 2014, 09:03:16 pm
Yet you plug in lamps, electronics, etc with 6 feet of 18 awg wire to 20 amp circuits all the time-yes the loads are controlled and known-but so is a load downstream of a 20 amp breaker.

I don't know that I like the cable-it would be far to easy and likely to get misused, than to bail you out in the odd case where it will work. Might make sense if you routinely had a situation like above-but probably a better way to handle it if it becomes a routine occurance. 
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 03, 2014, 09:21:17 pm
To keep things in context, ConnTek makes a bunch of these kinds of adapters and much of their business is aimed at the RV, marine and jobsite markets.

They claim UL listing "compliance" and if you look at the pics of some of the RV extension cords you'll see what looks like a holographic UL sticker.

Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on November 04, 2014, 07:47:25 am
To me, one of the conundrums of ULl isting is the phrase "listed for the purpose."  I understand UL won't list motors-instead they certify them-because they don't know the final use.  If I can't easily locate a UL listing verification that also tells me "the purpose" it was listed for I don't know the whole story.  I could see this cable being listed for temporary use to run two appliances from-but not necessarily being listed to supply 2 racks of gear.
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on November 04, 2014, 11:25:49 am
To me, one of the conundrums of ULl isting...

Mr. Behringer is now an electrical safety tester?  ;)
Title: Re: What's the danger
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on November 04, 2014, 11:33:21 am
Mr. Behringer is now an electrical safety tester?  ;)

Perhaps a "value added" service from the Chinese plant managers?