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Title: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Scott Olewiler on April 17, 2014, 11:00:34 am
I just lost a deal with a local "supergroup" (band made up of various members of very well established local heavy hitters) because I use Behringer power amps.

I'm personally very happy with the amps, other than the fact they're a little noisy in an empty room, but the income they cost me would have more than made up for the price difference to buy a more acceptable brand name. Ouch.  Really makes me rethink me equipment list. I know my rig sounds great, but if potential clients are discounting me based on their opinions of the equipment I own I have to wonder how many phones calls I never got because the equip list on my website isn't "good" enough.

Yeah, they said as long as I was using those amps they could not use me. At least they were honest about it. They also said I needed to have (4) LS808s instead of the 2 I currently use. That one puzzled me a bit as there are no rooms(they'd be only playing bars and clubs) in my area that would require 4 of those cabs for live music.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 17, 2014, 11:05:24 am
I just lost a deal with a local "supergroup" (band made up of various members of very well established local heavy hitters) because I use Behringer power amps.

I'm personally very happy with the amps, other than the fact they're a little noisy in an empty room, but the income they cost me would have more than made up for the price difference to buy a more acceptable brand name. Ouch.  Really makes me rethink me equipment list. I know my rig sounds great, but if potential clients are discounting me based on their opinions of the equipment I own I have to wonder how many phones calls I never got because the equip list on my website isn't "good" enough.

Yeah, they said as long as I was using those amps they could not use me. At least they were honest about it. They also said I needed to have (4) LS808s instead of the 2 I currently use. That one puzzled me a bit as there are no rooms(they'd be only playing bars and clubs) in my area that would require 4 of those cabs for live music.
Welcome to the world of riders.  Sometimes you've got to pay to play.  Whether that is a good business decision depends on how many gigs you would potentially lose vs. the cost of more expensive gear, or more gear.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 11:06:58 am
That's pretty much a given in the audio world technical riders almost always write off NO Behringer. that is with the exception now the X32 is gaining some acceptance, I do like it better than the Yamaha LS9.

Peronally I would buy used amps from a trusted brand (QSC, CROWN, etc) over buying new amps from behringer etc.

Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Alex Rigodanzo on April 17, 2014, 11:11:25 am
The short answer is to sell them and replace with RMX's.  The great thing about amps is that as long as they're working, the prices don't really fall much.  You can usually sell off for almost what you paid for an amp making any loss look like a very small rental fee.

On the other hand, if this "supergroup" is just a bunch of locals playing bars and clubs, I think they're being entirely too picky.  I'm sure none of them could tell the difference between the B's and Q's just by listening.  And as long as you carry a spare in case of failure, what's the diff?
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 11:17:02 am
I'm sure none of them could tell the difference between the B's and Q's just by listening.  And as long as you carry a spare in case of failure, what's the diff?

I kind of dobut there is much if any audible quality difference. I haven't ever user a behringer amp or speaker. but I'm guessing the cost saving and the issue are mainly in the are of reliability. Any amp will have some amount of hiss in an empty room with nothing playing if it's high power, even our QSC PLs have some hiss on our stage wedges.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 17, 2014, 11:24:42 am
On the other hand, if this "supergroup" is just a bunch of locals playing bars and clubs, I think they're being entirely too picky.  I'm sure none of them could tell the difference between the B's and Q's just by listening.  And as long as you carry a spare in case of failure, what's the diff?
The "diff" is satisfying customer requirements.  Who is paying for this?  They are the ones who decide who and what tools are appropriate for the gig.

Some riders are ridiculous, and are only there to feed the ego of the act.  Other riders require a certain level of gear, as that is usually, though not always, an indication of the company's ability to not suck at doing the gig.

If the band has enough pull to say "no Behringer" (which IMO is totally reasonable, btw), that's the way it is.  If the promoter finds out that it will cost $XXX more to do the show because of their technical requirements, it's up to the promoter and act to fight it out.

In any business, building a reputation is everything.  If you can be trusted to pull the show off, the tools you use become less important.  Until you have that relationship with a particular customer (and even after that), gear matters.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Taylor Hall on April 17, 2014, 11:29:35 am
We're going through the same phase now. We started with all Behringer amps and while they've been nothing but rock-solid for us, we're beginning to "thin the herd" and replace them with more "reputable" amps that could satisfy future riders. The good thing is that we can still use them on a B rig where riders wouldn't matter as much and for our personal events where we'll be the ones providing our own sound.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 17, 2014, 11:35:15 am
The customer is always right, even then they're ______.

Can't you rent more speakers if needed for a bigger gig?

It is pretty common to ASSume that sound companies using the cheapest gear will also cut other corners and be less professional about other decisons.

Behringer has made a lot of progress trying to reposition themselves, but it is pretty much impossible to enjoy that much success at entry level and simultaneously be considered professional.

Good luck..

JR
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Brian Jojade on April 17, 2014, 12:08:25 pm
I'm personally very happy with the amps, other than the fact they're a little noisy in an empty room, but the income they cost me would have more than made up for the price difference to buy a more acceptable brand name. Ouch.

A little noisy is a very bad quality in audio gear.  A lot of Behinger's gear has extremely poor sonic performance.  This has changed pretty dramatically in the last couple of years, especially noticeable in the X32 line.

A common complaint on the Behringer amps is that they don't perform as well as more professional amps with the same power rating.  I personally experienced this with an older EP2500, which on paper is supposed to be almost identical to a QSC RMX2450.  I can tell you that they aren't even CLOSE in performance.  The QSC walked all over the Behringer without question.  Now, that doesn't mean that you can't get enough Behringer rig to do the job, it's just that it is harder to trust the specs on paper.  When you're selling your services, that's what you have to go by when they don't know your technical abilities.

The sad thing is that it is hard to sell technical ability to some clients.  Someone with a checkbook and deep pockets could buy all the most expensive gear in the world, but have no clue how to deploy it.  Meanwhile, someone that knows what they are doing should be able to make any equipment provided to them function to the best of its ability. 

Anyway, from a business perspective, you need to look at what your clients focus on.  For very entry level jobs, brand name doesn't matter much.  When you get into the mid-line corporate work, brand names that are recognizable by the general public are valuable.  i.e., someone booking an event for the first time will likely be familiar with the JBL brand name, but may never have heard of EAW.   If those are the clients you are going for, selecting JBL can be a hand up in the sale.  Doesn't mean that the gear is any better, but the perception is that it is higher quality stuff to the uninformed.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Alex Rigodanzo on April 17, 2014, 12:23:19 pm
The "diff" is satisfying customer requirements.  Who is paying for this?  They are the ones who decide who and what tools are appropriate for the gig.

In any business, building a reputation is everything.  If you can be trusted to pull the show off, the tools you use become less important.  Until you have that relationship with a particular customer (and even after that), gear matters.

I may be entirely wrong, but this doesn't sound like a rider to me.  It sounds like, "So what gear do you use?"  "X, X, X and I use B amps."  "Sorry, we'll find someone else."  In my experience, most musicians have no idea what's involved in sound reinforcement and are just going on hearing bad things about Behringer.  If the rest of his rig is up to snuff (assuming he can borrow/rent the additional cabs), the B amps shouldn't kill the deal.

Of course, a lot depends on the options available in his market.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Chuck Simon on April 17, 2014, 12:46:55 pm
It is pretty common to ASSume that sound companies using the cheapest gear will also cut other corners and be less professional about other decisons.

Exactly!  In another life I did sound for a lot of touring country acts and almost all the riders stated "NO PEAVEY".  I'm sure many of those guys had used Peavey and were satisfied with it, they just did not trust a sound company that bought the least expensive equipment they could find. There is some logic there.  The band is already trusting a person they don't know, they would like to at least see equipment they trust.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Scott Olewiler on April 17, 2014, 01:18:42 pm
I may be entirely wrong, but this doesn't sound like a rider to me.  It sounds like, "So what gear do you use?"  "X, X, X and I use B amps."  "Sorry, we'll find someone else."  In my experience, most musicians have no idea what's involved in sound reinforcement and are just going on hearing bad things about Behringer.  If the rest of his rig is up to snuff (assuming he can borrow/rent the additional cabs), the B amps shouldn't kill the deal.

Of course, a lot depends on the options available in his market.

That's pretty much it. The only questions they had were, do you have any other amps other than the Behringers, do you have any other tops and can you get  2 more subs.   They passed on me with the caveat that if I get different amps and 2 more subs to give them a call.  At this time I'm not about to run out and spend $3000 on additional power amps and subs to get one client,(although I frequently buy equipment I do not own at all in order to do a gig properly), but I just wonder how many gigs I've not been considered for and never knew about. 

My goal was best sounding system for least amount of money so I can rent at a reasonable price and get lots of work.  Maybe I need to rethink that and instead of advertising that I use the equipment that sounds the best for their rental money, to  "I only use the brands you know and love"
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 01:18:55 pm
A little noisy is a very bad quality in audio gear.  A lot of Behinger's gear has extremely poor sonic performance.  This has changed pretty dramatically in the last couple of years, especially noticeable in the X32 line.

A common complaint on the Behringer amps is that they don't perform as well as more professional amps with the same power rating.  I personally experienced this with an older EP2500, which on paper is supposed to be almost identical to a QSC RMX2450.  I can tell you that they aren't even CLOSE in performance.

I have to agree the X32 is pretty Darn good - It's the only behringer gear I've ever own, and probably the only I will ever. (though I have covered the B word on it, and just left the Midas logo showing).


I would say the main reason they are under preformering is simply with what we see a lot of now, even power speakers are getting into it. the Watts wars. 2,000WATS!!!, and never states that peak. I think a lot of manufacturers other than the mainline amp manufacturers way over state their power ratings because the higher wattage looks good on paper to buyers who don't know any better.

Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 01:24:24 pm
That's pretty much it. The only questions they had were, do you have any other amps other than the Behringers, do you have any other tops and can you get  2 more subs.   They passed on me with the caveat that if I get different amps and 2 more subs to give them a call.  At this time I'm not about to run out and spend $3000 on additional power amps and subs to get one client,(although I frequently buy equipment I do not own at all in order to do a gig properly), but I just wonder how many gigs I've not been considered for and never knew about. 

My goal was best sounding system for least amount of money so I can rent at a reasonable price and get lots of work.  Maybe I need to rethink that and instead of advertising that I use the equipment that sounds the best for their rental money, to  "I only use the brands you know and love"

Wow, What happen to bar gigs just being some random amps and a pair of Yamaha Club Series speakers? Sounds like they are a big band that is just doing a small show in a bar (like a home coming after a tour). or they just *THINK* they are bigger than they are so they want the best with no $$$ to back it up.

Is this a A Level, B Level or C band? (Well, I know it's not an A level) and is there and actual rider?
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Ned Ward on April 17, 2014, 01:30:06 pm
The customer is always right, even then they're ______.

Can't you rent more speakers if needed for a bigger gig?

It is pretty common to ASSume that sound companies using the cheapest gear will also cut other corners and be less professional about other decisons.

Behringer has made a lot of progress trying to reposition themselves, but it is pretty much impossible to enjoy that much success at entry level and simultaneously be considered professional.

Good luck..

JR


This. If they don't want Behringer amps and more subs and you can't buy/rent to satisfy them, then it's not the gig for you. They have the right to ask for certain gear, and agree with John - Behringer has made up some ground with the X32, but it's a long way back before their entire line will be trusted.


A piece of black gaff tape would cover up the offending logos, and then they would look like the QSC RMX2450's they were shamelessly cosmetically copied from. But the long term solution of buying a reputable power amp and keeping these for a B-rig (no pun intended) makes sense.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 17, 2014, 01:34:00 pm
Wow, What happen to bar gigs just being some random amps and a pair of Yamaha Club Series speakers? Sounds like they are a big band that is just doing a small show in a bar (like a home coming after a tour). or they just *THINK* they are bigger than they are so they want the best with no $$$ to back it up.

Is this a A Level, B Level or C band? and is there and actual rider?
All of which is irrelevant - apparently the band is the one deciding on the equipment.  Whether they have a piece of paper that says "rider" on it, or whether they actually need what they are asking for makes no difference - they are in control. 

We can continue to argue about whether it is right or necessary or whatever, but this is fairly standard practice, and has been for decades, and isn't going to change.

Everyone needs to figure out their target market, evaluate what equipment is required, and then do a business analysis to see if that's practical.  With that knowledge, either do it or don't.  Whining about customer requirements is unproductive - the customer is always right.

Next time the OP may be able to offer a standard package with the Behringer amps, and if they balk, it may be a chance to upsell to a different rig with cross-rented equipment.
Title: What's In a Name?
Post by: Russ Davis on April 17, 2014, 01:42:27 pm
Some top-line Epiphone models may be superior to low-line Gibsons, but (right or wrong) clients and audience members will obsess on the logo.  Sometimes it pays to pony up the difference to buy (for example) a Crest Pro-Lite amp over its Peavey IPR first cousin, or the Midas M32 vs. the B*******r X32 (basically identical other than the faders and the brand name).
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 01:43:52 pm

A piece of black gaff tape would cover up the offending logos, and then they would look like the QSC RMX2450's they were shamelessly cosmetically copied from. But the long term solution of buying a reputable power amp and keeping these for a B-rig (no pun intended) makes sense.

You should see our X32's the logos are gaffed over. We still have 1 M7CL48 for when they don't want that but it's going to be going soon. I think having a good relationship with a rental house (were you get great discounts) is key for things like this.  one company is rarely going to have every piece of gear that every band wants on it's rider (or just says). Buying it does not always make sense. like has already been said they customer will get what they want so they are always right, you might not choose to fulfill their request but likely someone will.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Taylor Hall on April 17, 2014, 01:51:39 pm
A piece of black gaff tape would cover up the offending logos, and then they would look like the QSC RMX2450's they were shamelessly cosmetically copied from. But the long term solution of buying a reputable power amp and keeping these for a B-rig (no pun intended) makes sense.

That's what we did with ours. Put some masking tape over the logos and scribbled on what each amp was driving. No one but the nosiest of passers-by would realize they weren't something from the RMX lineup.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Scott Olewiler on April 17, 2014, 03:19:14 pm

This. If they don't want Behringer amps and more subs and you can't buy/rent to satisfy them, then it's not the gig for you. They have the right to ask for certain gear, and agree with John - Behringer has made up some ground with the X32, but it's a long way back before their entire line will be trusted.


I agree 100%. I totally support the band's decision not to use me. Band needs to be comfortable with what they're getting. They are the customer. If I'm renting some powered speakers and someone offers me some JBL Eons, I'm gonna pass.

Point of post was that buying cheaper equipment, whether it functions OK or not, might be more costly in the big picture if it causes you to lose work. Good business man recognizes opportunities to improve his business model. This was good learning experience for me I thought would make interesting conversation.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 03:21:54 pm
If I'm renting some powered speakers and someone offers me some JBL Eons, I'm gonna pass.

I think everyone would agree with that.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Richard Turner on April 17, 2014, 04:22:42 pm
I'd just turn it back on them , Meet with whoever in the band is the booker at a neutral place outside of a gig and put it to them bluntly, If they require improved gear will there be a improved fee for you  and will they sit down and book up the next 6-8 months of gigs on the spot. If they wont discuss it they already have someone else lined up to do the work and just aren't man enough to tell you straight up.

If $3k was all that stood in between me and $5k or more of bookings in 6 months I'd sure find a way to lease or finance the gear.

Not sure who would still spec out a ls808 for a modern PA but if you are interested I have 4 of them and 2 crest CA12 amps I would be more than happy to sell them at an agreeable price.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 17, 2014, 04:27:15 pm
One of the major distributors here says that the failure rate on B amps is significantly lower than the more expensive brands.  That doesn't point to a quality problem; but it might also be the result of B amps generally living a quieter life of less gigs and less road time.

That said, when someone wants a Coke sometimes a Pepsi just won't do.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 04:31:03 pm
One of the major distributors here says that the failure rate on B amps is significantly lower than the more expensive brands.  That doesn't point to a quality problem; but it might also be the result of B amps generally living a quieter life of less gigs and less road time.

That said, when someone wants a Coke sometimes a Pepsi just won't do.

Anyone can say any brand as a lower failure rate.. It also could be because the gear is not as widely in use, or it's used less often IE not touring than other brands. There's a lot of factors in that.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 17, 2014, 04:40:01 pm
One of the major distributors here says that the failure rate on B amps is significantly lower than the more expensive brands.  That doesn't point to a quality problem; but it might also be the result of B amps generally living a quieter life of less gigs and less road time.

That said, when someone wants a Coke sometimes a Pepsi just won't do.

That is heresay (cough) and not even the real issue.

The band is judging the book by the cover, or guilt by association. Something we all do numerous times every day.

There is a chicken/egg aspect to this, about how do you get from doing low-end low-dollar bar gigs that only support using the cheapest gear you can scratch together, to being a mid/hi level sound company that supports buying premium gear.

Maybe you need to sit down with your accountant, or talk to the man in the mirror.

It is not easy to just pull this off with sweat equity alone, and there are bad jokes about starting out with a big pile of money (to make a smaller pile of money). The same availability of modern cheap gear that does not suck, also makes it easy for more weekend warriors and bottom feeders to compete and keep prices low. 

I don't know any easy answers.

JR

Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 17, 2014, 04:43:33 pm
I just lost a deal with a local "supergroup" (band made up of various members of very well established local heavy hitters) because I use Behringer power amps.

I'm personally very happy with the amps, other than the fact they're a little noisy in an empty room, but the income they cost me would have more than made up for the price difference to buy a more acceptable brand name. Ouch.  Really makes me rethink me equipment list. I know my rig sounds great, but if potential clients are discounting me based on their opinions of the equipment I own I have to wonder how many phones calls I never got because the equip list on my website isn't "good" enough.

Yeah, they said as long as I was using those amps they could not use me. At least they were honest about it. They also said I needed to have (4) LS808s instead of the 2 I currently use. That one puzzled me a bit as there are no rooms(they'd be only playing bars and clubs) in my area that would require 4 of those cabs for live music.

Tell them they should play the brand of instruments you like...
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 17, 2014, 05:53:05 pm
The band get's what they want, and that's really the end of the subject. Right or wrong, true or false, yes or no, it's their money and they want it spent on something they feel comfortable with. Let's not forget that regardless of this acts level they have the right to stand on a stage and feel competent that the system they're putting their music through won't shit the bed. Who can say? Maybe these guys are being looked at by a label? No one wants to fail because of cheap equipment, and no one wants to hear "I told you so."

And I would use an Epiphone knowing it won't hold a candle to any of my historic Gibsons, but it doesn't mean I'll be happy. Just content in knowing it won't fail me and will get the job done.

And if everyone is so proud of their X32's and Behringer amps why cover the logo with anything?

A country band with no Peavey on the rider? 90% of the country bands I've worked with have a Peavey guitar amp somewhere on the stage. who would have thunk.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Lee Douglas on April 17, 2014, 06:28:34 pm

And if everyone is so proud of their X32's and Behringer amps why cover the logo with anything?


No kidding.  I'd be pretty pissed off if I were mislead into thinking I was getting something I wasn't.  I mean more mislead than photocopying the design to begin with!  :)

And kudos to the OP for getting "it" and not just stirring up (yet another) self-justification pity party.
Title: Branded
Post by: Russ Davis on April 17, 2014, 07:35:40 pm
A country band with no Peavey on the rider? 90% of the country bands I've worked with have a Peavey guitar amp somewhere on the stage. who would have thunk.

Betcha a lot of the big country stars who proudly have Peavey amps on stage still have "No Peavey" on the PA rider.  ::)
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: eric lenasbunt on April 17, 2014, 07:42:49 pm
The question is, how well does the gig(s) pay? This sounds like one of these deals with picky locals but they only want to pay $200 for a rig and a guy. I say no to a lot of these. I say no because I bring name brands and semi-pro and pro gear, so can't do it for that kind of money.  If I had entry level gear and no payroll, low insurance, rent, etc, then itay be a different story.
Title: Re: Branded
Post by: Tom Roche on April 17, 2014, 07:46:39 pm
Older Peavey 15" bass amps seem to be a favorite of steel guitar players.  I never would have guessed until I learned this tidbit from a very accomplished steel/fiddle player.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 17, 2014, 08:11:15 pm
I will address the second part of your question.

A single sub per side (unless it is a "super sub") is not really very much-even for a small room.

While it may be enough for "smaller bands", the "better bands" often require more output capability.

Of course by using a "real amp" the performance of the sub would increase.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Dave Dermont on April 17, 2014, 09:59:35 pm
I just lost a deal with a local "supergroup" (band made up of various members of very well established local heavy hitters) because I use Behringer power amps.

I'm personally very happy with the amps, other than the fact they're a little noisy in an empty room, but the income they cost me would have more than made up for the price difference to buy a more acceptable brand name. Ouch.  Really makes me rethink me equipment list. I know my rig sounds great, but if potential clients are discounting me based on their opinions of the equipment I own I have to wonder how many phones calls I never got because the equip list on my website isn't "good" enough.

Yeah, they said as long as I was using those amps they could not use me. At least they were honest about it. They also said I needed to have (4) LS808s instead of the 2 I currently use. That one puzzled me a bit as there are no rooms(they'd be only playing bars and clubs) in my area that would require 4 of those cabs for live music.

There is an important lesson to be learned here. Previous posts have already spelled out what that is.

There is also an opportunity staring you in the face.

So many people in the business buy gear hoping they can find the business to pay for it. You have found business, all you need is the correct gear to get it. The decision you need to make is if the work available justifies the expense, and figuring that out should be easy math.

Better gigs lead to better gigs.

Good luck to you!

Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 17, 2014, 11:00:19 pm
I did sound for a concert several years back, backline rider stated "NO PEAVEY". So a nice bass amp was provided, can't remember the brand, but upper end gear. Sound check started and the bass amp was toast. Somebody drug an old peavey bass amp out of a closet, fired it up, worked great and the bassist never said a word about it!
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 11:03:55 pm
I did sound for a concert several years back, backline rider stated "NO PEAVEY". So a nice bass amp was provided, can't remember the brand, but upper end gear. Sound check started and the bass amp was toast. Somebody drug an old peavey bass amp out of a closet, fired it up, worked great and the bassist never said a word about it!

NO Peavey is not one I've seen yet. We use peavey monitors from time to time for light duty stuff. They aren't the Best sounding out there but they work well and never fail. I don't think peavy ever claims to be the best sounding though.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 11:08:47 pm
There is an important lesson to be learned here. Previous posts have already spelled out what that is.

There is also an opportunity staring you in the face.

So many people in the business buy gear hoping they can find the business to pay for it. You have found business, all you need is the correct gear to get it. The decision you need to make is if the work available justifies the expense, and figuring that out should be easy math.

Better gigs lead to better gigs.

Good luck to you!

Exactly, You are getting paid to buy more/better gear which in turn will help you generate more revenue. not to mention brand names speak volumes (even when it shouldn't but many times it's rightfully so). In the end you have to decided if it's a good business decision but keep in mind even if you just break even would having the better name gear that get you better paying gigs a good move?
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 17, 2014, 11:14:47 pm
NO Peavey is not one I've seen yet. We use peavey monitors from time to time for light duty stuff. They aren't the Best sounding out there but they work well and never fail. I don't think peavy ever claims to be the best sounding though.
20 years ago Peavey was a bad word on tech riders like behringer is now, even though peavey gear has always been reliable
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Thomas Le on April 18, 2014, 12:56:47 am
NO Peavey is not one I've seen yet. We use peavey monitors from time to time for light duty stuff. They aren't the Best sounding out there but they work well and never fail. I don't think peavy ever claims to be the best sounding though.

At least Peavey lets you take out the logo because it's screwed on, with others you have to gaff it. To be honest, I consider Peavey a step up from Behringer.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 18, 2014, 03:41:05 am
Peavey's only sin was promoting themselves as a working mans product. By that I mean upper end MI quality available to the masses that may not be the prettiest looking, but rock solid from the day you bought it. That and a goofy looking logo. Peavey gear has always been rock solid, well designed, functional and nothing to be ashamed of. Additionally 95% of the hardware is designed and manufactured in the good ol' USA. (Mostly by rednecks, but I let that pass.) ;D And the brand is 100 steps up from Behringer.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 18, 2014, 05:33:00 am
Anyone can say any brand as a lower failure rate.. It also could be because the gear is not as widely in use, or it's used less often IE not touring than other brands. There's a lot of factors in that.

That's what I said.  Out once a month around town isn't a hard life.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Thomas Le on April 18, 2014, 07:23:12 am

Peavey's only sin was promoting themselves as a working mans product. By that I mean upper end MI quality available to the masses that may not be the prettiest looking, but rock solid from the day you bought it. That and a goofy looking logo. Peavey gear has always been rock solid, well designed, functional and nothing to be ashamed of. Additionally 95% of the hardware is designed and manufactured in the good ol' USA. (Mostly by rednecks, but I let that pass.) ;D And the brand is 100 steps up from Behringer.

I can say at least the stuff made up to the late 90's have been good to me, can't say for the stuff now made in China as I've found better stuff to replace that's better quality, like going from the Peavey SP2Ti to Yamaha DSR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 18, 2014, 07:49:41 am
I did sound for a concert several years back, backline rider stated "NO PEAVEY". So a nice bass amp was provided, can't remember the brand, but upper end gear. Sound check started and the bass amp was toast. Somebody drug an old peavey bass amp out of a closet, fired it up, worked great and the bassist never said a word about it!
I remember Hartley Peavey stating (when asked what amp he thought sounded the best) "The one that works".

It is amazing to me how often "professional brands" are given a "free pass" when they are acting up or such.  I have heard it numerous times "yeah they do that sometimes"-but if there was a piece of Peavey or such gear that was working fine-somehow that is NOT acceptable?

But the pro gear that doesn't work is fine-as long  as it is sitting in the rack?

I guess it is like some cars that are always in the shop are somehow better than one that simply works as intended day after day.

People can find excuses for all sorts of things-----
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 18, 2014, 07:52:12 am
Peavey's only sin was promoting themselves as a working mans product. By that I mean upper end MI quality available to the masses that may not be the prettiest looking, but rock solid from the day you bought it. That and a goofy looking logo. Peavey gear has always been rock solid, well designed, functional and nothing to be ashamed of. Additionally 95% of the hardware is designed and manufactured in the good ol' USA. (Mostly by rednecks, but I let that pass.) ;D And the brand is 100 steps up from Behringer.
Agreed
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 18, 2014, 08:28:21 am
Peavey's only sin was promoting themselves as a working mans product. By that I mean upper end MI quality available to the masses that may not be the prettiest looking, but rock solid from the day you bought it. That and a goofy looking logo. Peavey gear has always been rock solid, well designed, functional and nothing to be ashamed of. Additionally 95% of the hardware is designed and manufactured in the good ol' USA. (Mostly by rednecks, but I let that pass.) ;D And the brand is 100 steps up from Behringer.

Peavey is generally considered to be the brand that broke the mold. They were the first to offer professional sound equipment at a price the average joe could afford. A lot of their bad press came from average joes buying peavey gear and then not knowing how to operate it. Peavey also instituted several methods of helping the average joe get away with an improper setup and operation, like their DDT compression. An interesting post by John Roberts blew an old peavey myth out of the water several years back. Someone had posted about peavey mixers being noisy. The older ones were. John Roberts replied that the preamps in the new peavey mixers were so quiet that it would cost $1000 per channel to reduce the noise floor half a DB. I think one of the reasons the "No Peavey" clause was in so many tech riders was to weed out lower end providers, kinda like when they'd spec a 40 channel mixer when they only needed 18 inputs.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 18, 2014, 09:08:37 am
I can say at least the stuff made up to the late 90's have been good to me, can't say for the stuff now made in China as I've found better stuff to replace that's better quality, like going from the Peavey SP2Ti to Yamaha DSR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is another old theme... China=poorly built... With products built in China, just like anywhere else you get what you manage. If you use crap parts and lousy process control you get garbage out. If you use quality components and good process, the product is as good as built anywhere. I spent more time than I'd like in US Peavey factories and have visited Peavey's Chinese contact manufacturers (over 10 years ago now).. 

I suspect Chinese manufacturing gets a bad reputation from small companies building products over there with poor documentation, and poor process control, and inadequate component specifications. Do you feel lucky?

It ultimately comes down to management, while small companies can not afford to have boots on the ground over there to handle the day to day issues that arise. 

JR
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 18, 2014, 09:43:05 am
This is another old theme... China=poorly built... With products built in China, just like anywhere else you get what you manage. If you use crap parts and lousy process control you get garbage out. If you use quality components and good process, the product is as good as built anywhere. I spent more time than I'd like in US Peavey factories and have visited Peavey's Chinese contact manufacturers (over 10 years ago now).. 

I suspect Chinese manufacturing gets a bad reputation from small companies building products over there with poor documentation, and poor process control, and inadequate component specifications. Do you feel lucky?

It ultimately comes down to management, while small companies can not afford to have boots on the ground over there to handle the day to day issues that arise. 

JR
I worked as a machinist in a refinery for 38 years. I witnessed the transformation from everything being "made in the USA" to nothing "made in the USA". The last few years I worked saw chinese made tooling coming in. I was particularly impressed with large diameter drills made in China. They can make any quality the buyer demands. One of the reasons American manufacturers lost out was that they stopped caring about quality, and gave in to managers who sought to maximize profits at the expense of quality. Ball bearings are a good example. As far as I know, none are made in the USA any more.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 18, 2014, 10:10:17 am
To bring this back on topic, the difference between low-end and professional products is not so much the performance of the products as "features". Performance is often dominated by common standard parts used by many companies. These features are sometimes confused by the market place as indications of higher quality, but the reality is they indicate a customer willing to pay more for these higher end features in an otherwise similar product.

Sometimes new technology allows a value product to leapfrog ahead in feature content without the elevated price, like the new generation of digital consoles. Certainly superior "feature" content when compared to similar priced analog mixers. 

Power amps (IMO) are becoming pretty much a commodity product, with the only features left to add are DSP for speaker management, but this will all become moot when powered speakers take over the world (as I predict).  Then when they ask you what brand amps you use, you can answer nobody's.  8)
 
JR
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 18, 2014, 11:12:05 am
There is an important lesson to be learned here. Previous posts have already spelled out what that is.

There is also an opportunity staring you in the face.

So many people in the business buy gear hoping they can find the business to pay for it. You have found business, all you need is the correct gear to get it. The decision you need to make is if the work available justifies the expense, and figuring that out should be easy math.

Better gigs lead to better gigs.

Good luck to you!

T H I S
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 18, 2014, 11:16:23 am
I think everyone would agree with that.

Rental houses have made a metric ass-load of $$$ over the years with Eons. But they're not renting to sound guys.  And their customers don't care what the logo says like the Orange Badge.

edit for Orange Badge.

Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 18, 2014, 11:39:07 am
This is another old theme... China=poorly built... With products built in China, just like anywhere else you get what you manage. If you use crap parts and lousy process control you get garbage out. If you use quality components and good process, the product is as good as built anywhere. I spent more time than I'd like in US Peavey factories and have visited Peavey's Chinese contact manufacturers (over 10 years ago now).. 

I suspect Chinese manufacturing gets a bad reputation from small companies building products over there with poor documentation, and poor process control, and inadequate component specifications. Do you feel lucky?

It ultimately comes down to management, while small companies can not afford to have boots on the ground over there to handle the day to day issues that arise.

Exactly.  I am probably biased as I work for a Chinese company (actually a British company owned by an American company which is owned by a Chinese company).

China gets a bad reputation because most people see the very cheap, poorly made stuff and not the good stuff.  The reason for this is obvious.  It's why manufacturers go to China - to get things made as cheap as possible.  As consumers we get what we ask for and not many people care about quality now, only price.

However, there are also some excellent manufacturing companies in China and if you set things up right with the correct supplies, manufacturing processes and quality control systems, it's possible to make good products for a reasonable price in China.

Bear in mind that a lot of the things people are saying about Chinese manufacture are precisely what was being said about Japanese manufacture several decades ago.

As far as Peavey are concerned, I have done a lot of shows with Peavey mixers, CS series amplifiers and as many SP2 and FH1 speaker we could get into the van.  It wasn't top of the range equipment but it certainly worked well.  I don't know why Peavey wasn't regarded very highly and in the 1980s and 1990s I disagreed with anyone who bad mouthed Peavey equipment as no one could give me an actual real life reason why it wasn't any good just because it had a Peavey logo on it.

I can use Peavey as an example of outsourcing manufacture to other countries too.  Take the old XR600 mixer/amplifier.  In it's time it was a great improvement on what was available here in the UK (WEM, Carlsbro, HH) and there are many of them still in use.  My band has two, one of which gets gigged every weekend.

The XR600 series was replaced by the XR680 (and others which I can't remember). I suspect that the newer amps use cheaper components and are manufactured elsewhere such as China or Mexico (or England!) in order to make a competitive product.  If Peavey wanted to make a profit on a US made XR600 today, I don't think we could afford it.

One of the reasons American manufacturers lost out was that they stopped caring about quality, and gave in to managers who sought to maximize profits at the expense of quality.

Agreed.  Graduates with a spreadsheet and an MA in business have been the downfall of many companies (US and UK).


Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 18, 2014, 12:21:51 pm
Rental houses have made a metric ass-load of $$$ over the years with Eons. But they're not renting to sound guys.  And their customers don't care what the logo says like the Orange Badge.

edit for Orange Badge.

Doug,
I really don't get the bashing the Eon takes. They certainly make money, and the newer version of the box sounds great if used properly in the way they were intended to be used. I'm having another WTF moment about that, and actually wish that instead of LAB and Jr. LAB the site was broken down by major manufacturer and all else.
Bashing the Eon or any other product is no sweat off of my ass, but if someone needs to bash at least compare the product to a similar product. People need to stop jumping on a band wagon simply because it appears like the popular thing to do.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: frank kayser on April 18, 2014, 12:50:30 pm

Doug,
I really don't get the bashing the Eon takes. They certainly make money, and the newer version of the box sounds great if used properly in the way they were intended to be used. I'm having another WTF moment about that, and actually wish that instead of LAB and Jr. LAB the site was broken down by major manufacturer and all else.
Bashing the Eon or any other product is no sweat off of my ass, but if someone needs to bash at least compare the product to a similar product. People need to stop jumping on a band wagon simply because it appears like the popular thing to do.


Go get 'em, Bob.  I have some 10" EON2 that are great to spread around.  We do a benefit for a horse rescue place, and the EONs are perfect for coverage of the barns, paddock, and ring. Some music, some speaking.  No one is looking for high fidelity - I wouldn't bring my QSCs to a gig like that.  And if I had some Fulcrum Acoustics, they'd be more than a waste there.


Also they make reasonable monitors (with some EQ).  I use them as side fill when our Blues festival comes around, and easy plug in and out extra monitors as the band needs. 


They've been good to me, been reliable, and with a little EQ, sound much better than fair.
Are they great.  Heck no.  But in the right setting, perfect.


frank
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 18, 2014, 01:16:51 pm


I can use Peavey as an example of outsourcing manufacture to other countries too.  Take the old XR600 mixer/amplifier.  In it's time it was a great improvement on what was available here in the UK (WEM, Carlsbro, HH) and there are many of them still in use.  My band has two, one of which gets gigged every weekend.

The XR600 series was replaced by the XR680 (and others which I can't remember). I suspect that the newer amps use cheaper components and are manufactured elsewhere such as China or Mexico (or England!) in order to make a competitive product.  If Peavey wanted to make a profit on a US made XR600 today, I don't think we could afford it.

Steve.

Well I know a little about this, one of my gigs at Peavey was manager over all mixer engineering, and I was involved in China too.

The shift to Chinese manufacturing was dominated by demand from distributors in other countries than US. US Peavey dealers resisted Chinese manufacturing kicking and screaming, in many cases far longer than their customers did (many of those dealers are gone now).

The Global manufacturing cost/price math came down to what does the XR600/680 (actually same thing but more mic inputs), cost to sell in XYZ country. Peavey set up a plant in England, and mostly built speaker cabinets there for the Euro market. The cost difference of manufacturing products in the US, and shipping them to country XYZ, vs building that same product in China and shipping it to country XYZ was significant. So significant that competition building otherwise similar product in China could undercut Peavey on price by tens of percent in multiple foreign markets. Peavey's reputation was "good for the money", so losing that "for the money" part could kill the brand.   

So the evolution for high volume products like XR600/680 was to build them both in the US for the US market, and build them in China for the rest of the world. Many US dealers were still insisting on made in USA, despite the increasing cost competition even in the US marketplace.

One interesting SNAFU, a horribly mistaken purchasing agent purchased a few hundred  230V XR600 from China for delivery to the US. I have no idea what he was smoking but it became my job to deal with this huge pile of dead money. The first thing I tried was to cut a deal with Peavey distributors in 230V markets to flip these SKUs to a market that could sell them as is but no dice. Even with me taking a partial loss, it was still too expensive to re-ship these from the US to country XYZ, VS that distributor just ordering  new ones shipped from China. Long story short I got UL approval to swap out the power transformers to 115V and that's how the first (mostly) Chinese built XR600s came into the US market.

It was kind of funny to hear the reaction from the US factory workers who were involved in swapping out the transformers. I think they were surprised then a little embarrassed by how good the build quality was of those Chinese units. This is a far better measure than trying to judge quality from onsey twosy prototype samples. Those factory workers were hoping to find build quality problems and were sorely disappointed. I ended up selling these after rework to US dealers at a discount from US built XR600s and still made a profit at the end of it all. That feckless purchasing guy ended up working in a different gig.  Those dealers were smart enough to see the writing on the wall and the rest is history.

I have been outside the walls for over a decade, so I have no idea about current practices.

JR
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Thomas Le on April 18, 2014, 01:37:34 pm
Speaking of EON's, JBL has a new EON out, called EON615. It has a funky waveguide where the woofer is and is advertised as 1kW at 127 max SPL. I'd imagine this would eat the QSC K plastic boxes up since its priced cheap at $500 USD.

http://jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/eon600-series/eon615
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 18, 2014, 01:53:37 pm
The Global manufacturing cost/price math came down to what does the XR600/680 (actually same thing but more mic inputs)

Perhaps I haven't got the right number for the second one.  Obviously by XR600, I mean the original six input (although one of ours has eight) amp with a fairly chunky plastic moulded front fascia:

(http://www.bazaar-world.com/uploads/amp/35/200128040402-1.jpg)

And by XR680, I think I meant XR684:

(http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mQW-mp-BHkQE96dRm3CSISg.jpg)

Having taken both apart to repair, it seems that the XR600 was made exactly the way Peavey wanted to make it but the XR684 appears to have made some compromises.  There's nothing inherently wrong with it but it doesn't seem as robust as the XR600.  I had always assumed that the XR684 had been built down to a price to keep it affordable.

I could be wrong - If anyone can correct me on this, it's you!

Peavey set up a plant in England, and mostly built speaker cabinets there for the Euro market.

I know.  I went there in the early 1990s to borrow a truck load of equipment.  They let us borrow the first of the Peavey processor loudspeaker systems.  I forget the model numbers but there were trapezoid subs and tops and two way monitor speakers, all carpet covered. We also came away with a pile of the recently introduced Deca digital amplifiers.

The impressive thing in the factory was watching a 4 x 8 sheet of ply come in, be placed on the CNC router and go through all the stages in the assembly line to build a complete speaker in a very short time - perhaps only fifteen minutes from start to finish.

It's clever manufacturing methods like this which allow companies to remain competitive.


Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: randy amos on April 18, 2014, 02:18:30 pm
Well I know a little about this, one of my gigs at Peavey was manager over all mixer engineering, and I was involved in China too.


John, this was very informative and well written. Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Josh Millward on April 18, 2014, 02:22:16 pm
I know.  I went there in the early 1990s to borrow a truck load of equipment.  They let us borrow the first of the Peavey processor loudspeaker systems.  I forget the model numbers but there were trapezoid subs and tops and two way monitor speakers, all carpet covered.
I'm going to wager a guess that it was the HDH series.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 18, 2014, 02:33:53 pm
Perhaps I haven't got the right number for the second one.  Obviously by XR600, I mean the original six input (although one of ours has eight) amp with a fairly chunky plastic moulded front fascia:



And by XR680, I think I meant XR684:


Having taken both apart to repair, it seems that the XR600 was made exactly the way Peavey wanted to make it but the XR684 appears to have made some compromises.  There's nothing inherently wrong with it but it doesn't seem as robust as the XR600.  I had always assumed that the XR684 had been built down to a price to keep it affordable.

I could be wrong - If anyone can correct me on this, it's you!

I know.  I went there in the early 1990s to borrow a truck load of equipment.  They let us borrow the first of the Peavey processor loudspeaker systems.  I forget the model numbers but there were trapezoid subs and tops and two way monitor speakers, all carpet covered. We also came away with a pile of the recently introduced Deca digital amplifiers.

The impressive thing in the factory was watching a 4 x 8 sheet of ply come in, be placed on the CNC router and go through all the stages in the assembly line to build a complete speaker in a very short time - perhaps only fifteen minutes from start to finish.

It's clever manufacturing methods like this which allow companies to remain competitive.


Steve.
Not to get all XR600 on you but there were many incarnations of XR600. They generally used a letter suffix to denote upgrades, XR600E, XR600F, etc. of course modern versions are more different. 

There was a price point imperative to hold the US$600 retail price (IIRC). So every new generation was a very sharp pencil exercise to refine the features for modern expectations (like digital reverb to replace springs) while preserving the old price point. The plastic fascia was sacrificed to free up money for other features. 

Some of the upgrades used the same power amp module but by now they have evolved up to higher power points. I invested a few years on a digital group engineer who was tasked with making a class D power amp for the XR600 (for the same cost as the analog amp). He never did, but I suspect the new modern amp technology might deliver on that promise now.

I recall one such generational upgrade where the engineer working for me on this product, redesigned the input channel gain circuit. He tweaked the design so it delivered improved channel kill when turned down. A negative consequence of the popular one knob gain trim/channel fader approach is poor fader kill. His new improved circuit worked better, but as a consequence delivered roughly 3dB less gain when set straight up at 12 o'clock.

I had to field so many complaints from dealers and distributors that the new XR600 had a weaker power amp, that we re-tooled up a custom taper gain pot, so it delivered the exact same gain at 12 o'clock as the former XR600.

The customer is always right, even when horribly wrong. it was far easier to swallow the cost of tooling up a new pot, then to educate/convince that many people to just turn the knobs up to 2 o'clock instead of 12. I knew the amps made the same power, because it was literally the same exact amp module, but I had too many dealers and reps who should have known better that didn't believe even me  :o :o (hard to swallow for me).

The engineering involved behind successful value products is often more than meets the eye.

JR   

PS:  HDH=high death hooters
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 18, 2014, 02:37:48 pm
I'm going to wager a guess that it was the HDH series.

Yes, I think it was.  Together with the PCS processor which had sense inputs connected via TRS jacks to the amplifier outputs.  The monitors were processed too and sounded great compared with what we usually used.

We borrowed the system to use in a yacht marina as part of the Cowes Week* yachting regatta entertainment. (* possibly the world's oldest yachting regatta).

Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 18, 2014, 02:48:58 pm
I invested a few years on a digital group engineer who was tasked with making a class D power amp for the XR600 (for the same cost as the analog amp). He never did, but I suspect the new modern amp technology might deliver on that promise now.

I think so.  I repaired a Peavey XR1212 powered mixer for a friend as was very surprised at how little space the two class D amplifiers took up.


Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 18, 2014, 03:05:54 pm
I think so.  I repaired a Peavey XR1212 powered mixer for a friend as was very surprised at how little space the two class D amplifiers took up.


Steve.

For probably TMI when I was over in HK many years ago, I had discussions with a large Chinese OEM about making an universal power module that contained a couple channels of decent sized class D power amp modules, a universal switching mains power supply, with perhaps a few other commonly used features (like +/-15V DC power out, etc).. This would become a standard building block to use inside powered mixers, powered speakers, etc...

Just another one of my futuristic ideas that didn't reach fruition.   8)

JR
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Josh Millward on April 18, 2014, 03:09:19 pm
Yes, I think it was.  Together with the PCS processor which had sense inputs connected via TRS jacks to the amplifier outputs.  The monitors were processed too and sounded great compared with what we usually used.

We borrowed the system to use in a yacht marina as part of the Cowes Week* yachting regatta entertainment. (* possibly the world's oldest yachting regatta).

Steve.

Yes, that would be the system. It used the HDH Processor (HDH PCS) (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80300705.pdf)

You had the main full range cabinet, pictured above: HDH 1 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/hdh1.pdf)
You had a full range fill loudspeaker: HDH 2 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301058.pdf), HDH 2T (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301188.pdf), and finally the HDH 244T (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301758.pdf) (which was (I think) the first Peavey loudspeaker to use the bigger 44T compression driver)
Then you had the dual 18" subwoofer: HDH 3 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/HDH-3.pdf)
...and finally there was just the HF part of the main cabinet: HDH 4 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/HDH-4.pdf)
Of course, as you mentioned, the floor monitor: HDH M (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301061.pdf)

This system was designed to use the HDH PCS to provide a processed and monitored system. I believe it was available in at least 1988, according to the copyright on the HDH 1 Spec Sheet.

So, think for a minute about what other systems were available in 1988 and consider for a moment what this system was capable of...

I think we are more than a little beyond lowest cost products here.
Title: Branded
Post by: Russ Davis on April 18, 2014, 03:29:24 pm
...think for a minute about what other systems were available in 1988 and consider for a moment what this system was capable of...

I think we are more than a little beyond lowest cost products here.

That should be an eye-opener for those who erroneously think Peavey never made anything serious before the Versarray.
Title: Re: Branded
Post by: Josh Millward on April 18, 2014, 03:37:42 pm
That should be an eye-opener for those who erroneously think Peavey never made anything serious before the Versarray.
Exact-a-mundo.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 18, 2014, 03:45:16 pm
So, think for a minute about what other systems were available in 1988 and consider for a moment what this system was capable of...

It was certainly ahead of anything I had seen or even knew about at the time. There was a rumour (not sure where from) that the Peavey system was based on something similar by Meyer.

I don't know if there was any truth in the rumour -  perhaps you or John can enlighten us (me) on this.

We seem to have gone off on a tangent and I can't help but feel partially responsible!  Sorry to the OP.


Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 18, 2014, 04:02:49 pm
It was certainly ahead of anything I had seen or even knew about at the time. There was a rumour )not sure where from) that the Peavey system was based on something similar by Meyer.

I don't know if there was any truth in the rumour = perhaps John can enlighten us (me) on this.

We seem to have gone off on a tangent and I can't help but feel partially responsible!  Sorry to the OP.


Steve.

A little inside baseball there. I was not involved in the processed stuff but I suspect it was inspired by the big dog systems of the time. IIRC it was done completely inside the transducer group and they were more speaker engineers than circuit designers so you figure it out.

This gets back to some of my general branding discussions. (also almost on topic). Volkswagen engineers could design a ferrari a lot easier than the volkswagen dealers could ever sell them.

One lesson I learned from 15 years at Peavey was to stick to my knitting and try to always remember the customers and distribution that had to use and sell my creations. OK to add a hip feature (like FLS) as long as it was also really cheap and easy to use. Not much love for products that required reading an owners manual to figure out.

There is a pretty long list of products that Peavey made that were ahead of their time and/or too hip for the distribution.

I recall going in circles one time trying to explain to a big Peavey dealer why the more professional big dog speakers had to use matched drivers (so they would array properly, etc). He was not convinced of the value in that and sure they were just overpriced for no good reason. Since he was a typical Peavey dealer, easy to see why they didn't get supported across that distribution.

JR
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 18, 2014, 04:08:50 pm

Doug,
I really don't get the bashing the Eon takes. They certainly make money, and the newer version of the box sounds great if used properly in the way they were intended to be used. I'm having another WTF moment about that, and actually wish that instead of LAB and Jr. LAB the site was broken down by major manufacturer and all else.
Bashing the Eon or any other product is no sweat off of my ass, but if someone needs to bash at least compare the product to a similar product. People need to stop jumping on a band wagon simply because it appears like the popular thing to do.
I've got a pair of Gemeni plastic box powered speakers, although they aren't the typical gemini with piezo tweeters. They are biamped and cost me less that $200 apiece. When I play and sing in nursing homes they are perfect. I'd love to MOVE UP to 10" eons because the Eons are lighter. It's all about application. I'd never use such in any club gig, unless it was an acoustic duo.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Josh Millward on April 18, 2014, 04:15:20 pm
There is a pretty long list of products that Peavey made that were ahead of their time and/or too hip for the distribution.
Yes indeed! It always amazes me how often Peavey was just a little bit too far ahead of the curve... or maybe they were making the curve? I'm not sure.

I'm just glad this MediaMatrix stuff caught on and created this entirely new DSP market in the audio workspace.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 18, 2014, 04:22:02 pm
Yes, that would be the system. It used the HDH Processor (HDH PCS) (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80300705.pdf)

You had the main full range cabinet, pictured above: HDH 1 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/hdh1.pdf)
You had a full range fill loudspeaker: HDH 2 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301058.pdf), HDH 2T (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301188.pdf), and finally the HDH 244T (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301758.pdf) (which was (I think) the first Peavey loudspeaker to use the bigger 44T compression driver)
Then you had the dual 18" subwoofer: HDH 3 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/HDH-3.pdf)
...and finally there was just the HF part of the main cabinet: HDH 4 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/HDH-4.pdf)
Of course, as you mentioned, the floor monitor: HDH M (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301061.pdf)

This system was designed to use the HDH PCS to provide a processed and monitored system. I believe it was available in at least 1988, according to the copyright on the HDH 1 Spec Sheet.

So, think for a minute about what other systems were available in 1988 and consider for a moment what this system was capable of...

I think we are more than a little beyond lowest cost products here.

A christian artist, Milam LeFevre, was endorsed by Peavey back in the day of the HDH. I saw him in Houston in the  old Sam Houston Coloseum and was impressed with the sound of the system. I vividly remember the racks of CS1200 amps. Another Christian artist in that era using HDH was Ray Boltz. Saw him at Lakewood Church in Houston, 7000 seat venue. It had a lot of bass.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: frank kayser on April 18, 2014, 04:41:15 pm
Yes indeed! It always amazes me how often Peavey was just a little bit too far ahead of the curve... or maybe they were making the curve? I'm not sure.


I think the term is "bleeding edge"... The curve is somewhere back there.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on April 18, 2014, 05:00:36 pm
Not much love for products that required reading an owners manual to figure out.

My early impression of Peavey was that it was garbage. But you must understand that at the time, my experience with audio systems did not go past three knobs: volume, bass, and treble. I now know that probably every Peavey system I had heard was operated improperly by someone else, with the most common error being improper gain structure (and the second most common error being severe abuse of the hardware). Were I able to go back in time with what I now know, I could probably make them sound a whole lot better.

If only some of those owners had read the manual.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 18, 2014, 05:05:33 pm
My early impression of Peavey was that it was garbage. But you must understand that at the time, my experience with audio systems did not go past three knobs: volume, bass, and treble. I now know that probably every Peavey system I had heard was operated improperly by someone else, with the most common error being improper gain structure (and the second most common error being severe abuse of the hardware). Were I able to go back in time with what I now know, I could probably make them sound a whole lot better.

If only some of those owners had read the manual.
I saw a band in a coffee house several years ago, and they had the latest from peavey, speakers, mixers, amps. It sounded really bad. I went and looked at the mixer, and the hi eq was rolled off on every vocal channel. Question answered.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 18, 2014, 05:21:49 pm

Doug,
I really don't get the bashing the Eon takes. They certainly make money, and the newer version of the box sounds great if used properly in the way they were intended to be used. I'm having another WTF moment about that, and actually wish that instead of LAB and Jr. LAB the site was broken down by major manufacturer and all else.
Bashing the Eon or any other product is no sweat off of my ass, but if someone needs to bash at least compare the product to a similar product. People need to stop jumping on a band wagon simply because it appears like the popular thing to do.

Just to clarify. I am not bitching at Doug here, but am actually backing his statements.
 
My take on the Eon bashing is based more on the fact people don't like the looks of the cabinet, and I would have to agree. Now look at the new 600 model and the same can't be said.
 
 
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 18, 2014, 05:31:07 pm
I saw a band in a coffee house several years ago, and they had the latest from peavey, speakers, mixers, amps. It sounded really bad. I went and looked at the mixer, and the hi eq was rolled off on every vocal channel. Question answered.

Did you adjust it?  I think I would... in fact, I have on a couple of occasions.  I did ask first though.


Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Patrick Tracy on April 18, 2014, 05:38:43 pm
Many installed Peavey systems were horribly abused and poorly maintained but somehow continued to work just well enough to allow the owner to justify keeping it in service. So a series of BE's coming through the club would get a bad impression of the brand.

One of the reasons I never wanted to grow past the club market is because I would have no patience with such brand snobbery. That takes the fun out of it, and without the fun there's so much less to be motivated about. If it's just going to be about making money there's a million better things one could be doing.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 18, 2014, 05:45:13 pm
One of the reasons I never wanted to grow past the club market is because I would have no patience with such brand snobbery.

I hate brand snobbery. There's usually no real basis for it.

Whilst I usually use my $1600 Gretsch for gigs, occasionally I take out my Squier Telecaster which I think I paid £70 for.

They both work and make a suitable sound.


Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Patrick Tracy on April 18, 2014, 06:00:04 pm
I hate brand snobbery. There's usually no real basis for it.

For me it was a point of pride to look at people's faces turn from skeptical to confused to enthusiastic when I set up my hodgepodge of gear and made it sound good. Doing a small festival about a decade ago with a pair of Carvin 2-ways (with piezos) on top of a pair of Yamaha S4115H cabs I had one guy, a musician, come up to the mix position and ask some questions about the gear, like how many watts I was pushing (mostly Peavey 8.5C for about 200W per speaker). He said my mix sounded like a CD.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 18, 2014, 06:00:25 pm
Did you adjust it?  I think I would... in fact, I have on a couple of occasions.  I did ask first though.


Steve.
they had someone at the mixer. evidently that's how they wanted it to sound.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 18, 2014, 06:03:47 pm
For me it was a point of pride to look at people's faces turn from skeptical to confused to enthusiastic when I set up my hodgepodge of gear and made it sound good. Doing a small festival about a decade ago with a pair of Carvin 2-ways (with piezos) on top of a pair of Yamaha S4115H cabs I had one guy, a musician, come up to the mix position and ask some questions about the gear, like how many watts I was pushing (mostly Peavey 8.5C for about 200W per speaker). He said my mix sounded like a CD.
one of my first experiences with a national level road manager started out really bad. The band was playing a benefit in a small setting. My rig was more than adequate for the venue, but it wasn't what their road manager wanted. He loudly proclaimed his displeasure. The band had a great time on stage for the 50 people that showed up, and the road manager was singing a different song after he heard my hodge podge rig.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 18, 2014, 06:11:09 pm
I hate brand snobbery. There's usually no real basis for it.

Heck we like grundorf stuff http://www.grundorf.com/index.php?type=SOUN   but it seems no ones ever heard of them so we done get to use it much.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Rob Spence on April 18, 2014, 06:29:21 pm

Just to clarify. I am not bitching at Doug here, but am actually backing his statements.
 
My take on the Eon bashing is based more on the fact people don't like the looks of the cabinet, and I would have to agree. Now look at the new 600 model and the same can't be said.

Not quite the looks, but the actual shape. They don't pack with anything including another EON (older ones).

I recall having a bunch of SP-5s at one point. Worked fine at the time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 18, 2014, 06:34:31 pm
one of my first experiences with a national level road manager started out really bad. The band was playing a benefit in a small setting. My rig was more than adequate for the venue, but it wasn't what their road manager wanted. He loudly proclaimed his displeasure. The band had a great time on stage for the 50 people that showed up, and the road manager was singing a different song after he heard my hodge podge rig.

We had a similar thing happen with UK band, Doctor Feelgood.  It included them being told "if you don't like it, we'll just pack it all back in the van and go home" (with added swear words). 

Later we were told that our mix of JBL 4560s, Martin folded W horns and other no name horn loaded cabs sounded great - which it did!


Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 18, 2014, 06:36:51 pm
Heck we like grundorf stuff http://www.grundorf.com/index.php?type=SOUN   but it seems no ones ever heard of them so we done get to use it much.

With a logo which looks like Behringer's from a distance!


Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Thomas Le on April 18, 2014, 06:42:08 pm

Just to clarify. I am not bitching at Doug here, but am actually backing his statements.
 
My take on the Eon bashing is based more on the fact people don't like the looks of the cabinet, and I would have to agree. Now look at the new 600 model and the same can't be said.

I have to say, the EON600 is looking more acceptable. Gone are the goofy curves on the 500 series. We'll see how it fares with the QSC K series considering the specs are the same/similar.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Chris Hindle on April 18, 2014, 07:54:52 pm
Yes, that would be the system. It used the HDH Processor (HDH PCS) (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80300705.pdf)

You had the main full range cabinet, pictured above: HDH 1 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/hdh1.pdf)
You had a full range fill loudspeaker: HDH 2 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301058.pdf), HDH 2T (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301188.pdf), and finally the HDH 244T (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301758.pdf) (which was (I think) the first Peavey loudspeaker to use the bigger 44T compression driver)
Then you had the dual 18" subwoofer: HDH 3 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/HDH-3.pdf)
...and finally there was just the HF part of the main cabinet: HDH 4 (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/HDH-4.pdf)
Of course, as you mentioned, the floor monitor: HDH M (http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80301061.pdf)

This system was designed to use the HDH PCS to provide a processed and monitored system. I believe it was available in at least 1988, according to the copyright on the HDH 1 Spec Sheet.

So, think for a minute about what other systems were available in 1988 and consider for a moment what this system was capable of...

I think we are more than a little beyond lowest cost products here.
I remember playing around with the HDH-1.
In particular, gluing (and re-inforcing) the 4-throat STYROFOAM driver adapter thingy that held 4 22A drivers together.
Pretty decent sounding rig at the time, but not particularly truck friendly. Had a customer with an 8-box rig, and I built plywood shims to support the 22A's once the first one broke.
About the same time, I started using a 12 box Adamson MH255/B215 system, and never really looked at the Peavey again.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 18, 2014, 08:14:03 pm
Yes indeed! It always amazes me how often Peavey was just a little bit too far ahead of the curve... or maybe they were making the curve? I'm not sure.

I'm just glad this MediaMatrix stuff caught on and created this entirely new DSP market in the audio workspace.

Yup, I was there that day when the lads from Peak Audio first brought it in and gave their dog and pony show. Basically a PC with a crude monitor display showing a bunch of square icons that supposedly represented virtual crossovers and mixers, and all kinds of interconnect magic with a mouse click. It was no small leap of faith to believe that display was more than a video game for audio nerds, but Hartley shared their vision and embraced it.

I congratulate Hartley for having the vision, and for naming it Media-Matrix, not after some furry rodent like the feedback ferret.   :o

Media Matrix was a roaring success, despite being associated by the little loved (by sound installers) Peavey name. It succeeded because it was cheaper than competing approaches by a country mile. Sound installers pretty much had no choice. either use it or forfeit the job because the old school way using racks of analog gear and miles of wire was now obsolete and way too expensive.

 JR
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 18, 2014, 08:15:43 pm
With a logo which looks like Behringer's from a distance!


Steve.

Unfortunately it does look somewhat like it. luckily for us Grundorf is known around here by some of the bigger bands thanks to a much bigger production company that uses Grundorfs subs for national touring acts. That company is the one who got us liking Grundorf.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 18, 2014, 09:05:09 pm
Unfortunately luckily Gundorf its known but some of the bigger bands around here thanks to a much bigger production company that uses there subs for national touring acts. their the ones that got me liking grundorf actually.

My head hurts. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. :(
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 18, 2014, 09:28:31 pm
My head hurts. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. :(

Pro Tip: Never use Speech to text to post a message from a phone! haha.

Edited it.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 18, 2014, 09:33:59 pm
Pro Tip: Never use Speech to text to post a message from a phone! haha.

Edited it.

Hahahaaa classic. :) I'm glad it's not just a case of not actually... wanting... to... be... comprehended... There's someone else on here who is now on my ignore list cos their posts regularly are so full of grammatical and spelling errors that I just can't make them out. Or, their posts are totally random nonsense. Or both!

Anyways, way off topic.

Back to the OP - Dave Dermont sure nailed it. You have clients that will hire you if you just purchase a bit more kit, of the type that they want to see? In other words, you can make an investment into new gear that is going to be paying for itself, immediately?!?

No brainer!

-Ray
Title: Branded
Post by: Russ Davis on April 18, 2014, 10:20:03 pm
(Deleted, too far off-topic)
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Michael A. Yates on April 18, 2014, 10:42:50 pm

Heck we like grundorf stuff http://www.grundorf.com/index.php?type=SOUN   but it seems no ones ever heard of them so we done get to use it much.

Never heard of them but it seems they have a wide range of products...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Michael A. Yates on April 18, 2014, 10:44:38 pm

With a logo which looks like Behringer's from a distance!


Steve.

Looks like an exact copy of the Behringer logo...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 18, 2014, 10:48:28 pm
Looks like an exact copy of the Behringer logo...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Maybe from a distance. It's just a triangle with GAD (Grundorf Audio design) in it.

http://www.grundorf.com/index.php?type=about-us

Manheim Steamroller used them on tour.

Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 19, 2014, 01:35:03 am
Maybe from a distance. It's just a triangle with GAD (Grundorf Audio design) in it.

http://www.grundorf.com/index.php?type=about-us

Manheim Steamroller used them on tour.

Chip Davis also uses a lot of wine on tour... but he's not playing on his Mannheim gigs anymore.

I was on the local crew and was surprised at the amount of Grundorf on stage but never had the opportunity to "hear them in anger."  One of the things I noticed was the relatively light weight of the monitor wedges, though.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 19, 2014, 02:15:38 am
Scott, my advice for new purchases (and you may have read this before) is that if new gear will help you keep an account, secure a new and higher-paying account (or lets you raise your rates on existing clients), gain you entree to work that you'd not be considered for otherwise... AND you can have some reasonable idea of the return you'll earn, it probably makes sense to seriously consider adding to your inventory.

You're talking about adding several thousand dollars worth of equipment.  If you're at the $200/night (just an arbitrary number) and the new client pays $300 and does 4 shows a month you're still looking at 12 - 24 months to pay off the purchase cost.  If your rate card is higher you'll pay out sooner, ditto if the band plays a lot.  Obviously it also depends on models you buy, new or used, etc.

When you make this step up it will inevitably be followed by yet more purchases (more mics, cables, stands, sub snakes, monitors, new PA eventually).

I replied to a post here at PSW a couple of years ago that became the basis for a blog post:  http://soundforums.net/blogs/tim-mcculloch/460-next-level-unicorn-production-business.html  I started out as a guy with a Ford Econoline van full of PA, sort of "engineered" to work as a functional system.  I was like most of the folks here in the Lounge.  Now that I'm 30+ years into this, I have the benefit of hindsight.  It is not necessary that you should repeat my mistakes or mistakes I have observed. 8)  So read the blog post and understand that the monetary scale I talk about there isn't material to your situation (move decimal places as may be appropriate), but the underlying concepts are universal.

Acknowledging that growth is expensive, so too is inaction if you're in a competitive market.  Growth for it's own sake makes sense only when the monetary reward is significant (and that's unlikely in scenarios either of us will be in).  But darn it, growth is also very appealing.  Keeping that in mind, what, exactly do you get for investing $4k - $6K for a gig that could disappear with the fickleness of a lead singer or drama queen drummer?  Can you adequately service your existing clients if you take this on?  Ask yourself the question "what's in this for me?"

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

I just lost a deal with a local "supergroup" (band made up of various members of very well established local heavy hitters) because I use Behringer power amps.

I'm personally very happy with the amps, other than the fact they're a little noisy in an empty room, but the income they cost me would have more than made up for the price difference to buy a more acceptable brand name. Ouch.  Really makes me rethink me equipment list. I know my rig sounds great, but if potential clients are discounting me based on their opinions of the equipment I own I have to wonder how many phones calls I never got because the equip list on my website isn't "good" enough.

Yeah, they said as long as I was using those amps they could not use me. At least they were honest about it. They also said I needed to have (4) LS808s instead of the 2 I currently use. That one puzzled me a bit as there are no rooms(they'd be only playing bars and clubs) in my area that would require 4 of those cabs for live music.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 19, 2014, 06:10:11 am
That's a great post Tim, and a very good link for all to follow.

Scott,
There's another side to investing in pro level hardware as well. There will come a day when your age, life style, and your body tell you it's time to slow down, and at age 62 I've reached that point on all counts.

It's been a wonderful and sometimes not so wonderful 50 year journey full of surprises, goals reached, and goals never to be reached. But, through all of that time the one thing I kept constant was to make sure every purchase I made was for the best hardware I could afford. Keep in mind that in my day rental houses really didn't exist and it was a normal event to borrow equipment from another band, and there wasn't a lot to choose from in the beginning either, but you could still buy junk if you wanted to or didn't care. Doing my homework and making sure I owned or borrowed the best I could afford or find led to better paying and more visible jobs then, and it still does to this day. Hey, raise your hand if you were 16 and opened for Cream in 1968. Back then every band brought their own PA for the most  part. I had a good band, and good hardware that filled the auditorium, and that's what got me the job. That was the day the light really turned on bright over marble mountain. That was the day I fully realized that good was one thing, but good with pro level gear was something else all together.
 
Once I decide to pull the plug I don't think I'll have much trouble reselling my hardware, but until then one look at my system should tell the people I'm working for that I came to do the job the way it should be done, and without fear of hardware failure, be it at a small club, or in front of a few thousand people. Make your choices wisely, save your money, buy the best you can for the job you're going to do, and build on that.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Scott Olewiler on April 19, 2014, 08:39:31 am
This has been some great discussion and as always you guys have given me a lot to think about. A little background since most of you realize I just popped up on this forum a few months ago. I have been a working musician, some times sound man, since 1980(*edit) ( I was 15 then) all part time (although I did have a brief encounter with mild fame in the mid 80s) and have done thousands of show mostly on stage but a lot of them behind boards that others owned.

In all those years I was very competent at making a system sound good, in spite of the fact I really had no idea how or why things worked the way they did. I had some good skills that mattered like setting gains correctly, good ear for the mix and the ability to name a feedback frequency as soon as I heard it.  A skill I seem to have since lost much to my dismay.

Almost all my real knowledgs has been gained in the last year first watching youtube vids on sound and then once I discovered this forum, you guys have pretty much been my sole source of info.

I just got into the rental business last October with kind of a "let's see what happens" ad on Craigslist and only the $3900 worth of equipment I was using for my band at the time. all of it less than a year old. I got paid $60.00. I charged them $50 but the band decided to give me an equal cut for the night.

In spite of a successful show it was all too apparent that I did not have the rig I needed to be renting myself out. So the credit card came out and I started buying gear like crazy, upgrading what ever seemed like the weakest link after each show and also getting necessary stuff like test equipment, plenty of extra cables, DIs, etc.   First purchase after that show was another powered sub, a new amp for my tops and a digital mixer. Total cost - $3400, almost what I had into it to date. Tim's post was spot on in that case.

The calls started coming in fairly regularly and I was making purchases either before each show to get something I was going to need or afterwards to upgrade something that maybe wasn't cutting it. Tried to focus on the weakest link first, for example the monitor system that worked fine for my band wasn't cutting it for others so I replaced the entire thing and put mine in the basement as a permanent install for band practice.

And of course after each major purchase, I would mistakenly think I was done buying stuff for awhile and then something would happen and I'd realize I needed something else. At least my band keeps getting better and better stuff to work with.

Was also able to borrow some stuff. 

Now it's April and I have roughly $13,500 worth of equipment (almost  double what I had just 4 months ago), a hell of lot more knowledge, and the realization that a lot of what I bought along the way I'm probably going to end up selling off for a loss within the next 6 months, mostly all the cheap equipment( like crap mic stands) I own that seemed like such a bargain at the time.   And if I was starting from scratch today, I could put together a much better system for $13K than I currently own.

Knowing that I need to buy better tops for larger venues more than I need to replace those power amps, I have reached out to a couple of other providers in the area to see what they are willing to cross rent should this situation arise again.  I currently do have work, just did a gig last Saturday for $250 and have another lined up for tonight, so I'm going to concentrate on trying to pay off some of what I have now with the full intention of continuing to step up my game again in a few months. 

I do believe long term it's better to acquire the equipment people want to rent than to try and find clients for the equipment you currently have. Ultimately I'll always be doing a little bit of both until I reach a level that I'm comfortable staying at. I plan on retiring in 5 years and would like this to be a least 25% of my retirement income.

Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 19, 2014, 08:58:05 am
This has been some great discussion

There has been - but I must apologise for turning your thread into a Peavey appreciation society at one point!

I have been a working musician, some times sound man, since 1981 ( I was 15 then) all part time (although I did have a brief encounter with mild fame in the mid 80s) and have done thousands of show mostly on stage but a lot of them behind boards that others owned.

Apart from any encounter with mild fame, my experience is similar to yours.  I am a regularly gigging musician who started in live sound in the mid 1980s always using other people's equipment. If my mathematics is correct, I'm two years older than you (1964). I am just getting back into live sound after a few quiet years.

I found this forum last year when I realised that I had been volunteered to work the sound for a friend's band at a venue which had recently installed a digital desk.

There was a lot of helpful information both here and on YouTube videos as you have found.

There are many very knowledgeable people here who are happy to give advice.


Steve.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Scott Olewiler on April 19, 2014, 10:01:30 am
If my mathematics is correct, I'm two years older than you (1964). I am just getting back into live sound after a few quiet years.


Oops, my math is bad. It was actually 1980, later that year I turned 16. ( I know how old I was, just miscalculated the year.)
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Ray Aberle on April 19, 2014, 10:28:52 am
Scott, my advice for new purchases (and you may have read this before) is that if new gear will help you keep an account, secure a new and higher-paying account (or lets you raise your rates on existing clients), gain you entree to work that you'd not be considered for otherwise... AND you can have some reasonable idea of the return you'll earn, it probably makes sense to seriously consider adding to your inventory.

*snip* AMAZING TIM INFORMATION

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

As always, Tim gives information that is absolutely spot on.

I would add that another thing that is commonly mentioned on here is appearances. Having a larger inventory of gear will help you to book even just the current "normal" stuff, because people will look at what you have, and see that you are a competent, legitimate provider. Take tech riders. Sometimes they ask for things they really don't need (48ch console, 8 VCAs, mountain of outboard, or just a 5D or SC48 or whatever) -- to ensure that the provider is competent and capable of satisfying their needs. Maybe they only need 16 channels, and a pair of 166XLs, maybe a d2, or whatever, but they can weed out the bottom feeders in this manner.

I remember Evan Kirkendall mentioning a story either on here or on SFN where one of his ATL shows, their main digital foh console died. They have an analog maybe 16ch Mackie as a backup, he repatched the "show bare minimum" to that, and they carried on. A good tech will make things work even in adverse situations, but they have to have the backup on site for it to be beneficial. Those "smaller guys" might not be carrying any sort of backups for mission critical gear, and that can be scary.

Anyways, said it before, will say it again- I think this is a good investment that will (it already has, even before buying it!) bring you new/increased business. Just make sure you're "buying once, crying once" and that the gear you get is the smart business decision.

Sounds like it is!

-Ray "has spent stupid amounts of money on stupid things before he learned better" Aberle
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Patrick Tracy on April 19, 2014, 12:53:03 pm
A good tech will make things work even in adverse situations, but they have to have the backup on site for it to be beneficial. Those "smaller guys" might not be carrying any sort of backups for mission critical gear, and that can be scary.

Even I typically had a spare board, a spare amp or two, an extra crossover, a spare wedge and even a spare pair of mains, plus about twice the cabling I needed.

But I limited myself to whatever I could safely fit in a full size van and what I could set up and tear down myself or with one trusted friend. Also, I did not tie in to power (Edisons only for me) and I did not do rigging. I had a ton of fun, eventually learned how not to lose money, learned a lot of technical stuff, networked like crazy and earned a local reputation.

My hands and back have told me it's time to stop hauling stuff that weighs more than me so I don't provide any more, but I still mix live from time to time and do lots of studio stuff. So maybe I can't get a lot for my gear but I don't care. The difference in resale value is probably about the same as the difference in purchase price so that's a wash anyway. I could chuck in a dumpster, not have to deal with buyers and still come out okay.

Treating as a business is fine, and being professional is necessary, but is money why we get into this thing? When you're in a nursing home with nothing left but your thoughts what would you rather have, memories about how much money you made or memories about what great times you had?
Title: Lost Gigs
Post by: Russ Davis on April 19, 2014, 07:26:54 pm
There's someone else on here who is now on my ignore list cos their posts regularly are so full of grammatical and spelling errors that I just can't make them out...

Anyways, way off topic.

Not entirely off-topic, since we're talking about losing gigs.  I wouldn't want to be a Grammar Nazi for these forums (especially given the international makeup of PSW members), but poorly written price quotes, contracts and other business correspondence can DEFINITELY cost gigs.  It's like Van Halen's rationale for the legendary "No Brown M&Ms" clause buried deep in their riders (to ensure the entire rider was being read and complied with).  The potential client is thinking, "If this person doesn't know the difference between There, They're and Their, do I really want him/her flying PA cabinets over my stage?".
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 19, 2014, 08:22:29 pm
It doesn't even require the reader to make any kind of personal judgement, it is just a distraction, like a pigeon flying overhead and crapping on your resume, changing the subject immediately.

I recall back in the day before we had email and web forums, where I worked had a form of internal electronic mail that ran on the mainframe computer (profs). I recall taking time to teach one of the company directors how to use the spell check that was built it. His electronic memos were embarrassing. However even spell check can't help people who don't read much so don't know what the right word looks like. That's why they have (had?) secretaries

I suspect computer spell checker will get even better about contextual spelling associations, until then try to keep the pigeon poop at bay.   

JR
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 20, 2014, 11:33:52 am
I'll add to what others said about having inventory to get more clients.

A lot of the times the bands we (and I think most of us) work with do not really know a lot about sound, thought they always think they do. Sometimes having way bigger gear than needed for a gig is what will get you a band. For example if you do a small concert that small speakers would be more than enough headroom for, I think with a lot of the bands (and their egos) they are more likely to go with someone who has a system that Looks big (because if it is big, it must be loud right?) So looks and appearances of your gear will someone times get you the gigs. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Conrad Muzoora on April 20, 2014, 02:04:33 pm
Well even in my side of the Jungle, people are quickly learning that size is not everything! I run ev sx 300 for mains and I am seriously out competing people with double 15" Chinese knock off tops that are really big!
Conrad
www.kooleventug.com


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 20, 2014, 02:24:31 pm
The human decision making process is not completely rational or linear. Just look at all the silly TV commercials that shouldn't fool a school child but guess what. They spend millions on them and keep doing it because it works.

While we may think we are completely rational about making decisions but our "gut" and "intuition" are often influence by the classic Bigger, louder, faster, etc...

JR
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: David Parker on April 20, 2014, 06:19:26 pm
The human decision making process is not completely rational or linear. Just look at all the silly TV commercials that shouldn't fool a school child but guess what. They spend millions on them and keep doing it because it works.

While we may think we are completely rational about making decisions but our "gut" and "intuition" are often influence by the classic Bigger, louder, faster, etc...

JR
I put together a small, efficient system for the clubs where they didn't want it loud. I could run the smaller system louder than a bigger system, and they wouldn't say a word. They saw the big cabs and immediately thought LOUD! They saw the smaller cabs and didn't bother me.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Mike Monte on April 23, 2014, 09:35:44 pm
Hello: A local sound guy has switched over to Berringer powered monitors (15 powered) and has added a B digital mixer....  he does quite a few "yearly"  local (hs/col) musical sound plus summer mulitband festivals.   In his words the summer festivals look for "gear" ie; name brands, etc. while the show people look for what works...
His sound co gigs throughout the winter on a weekly basis (doing shows/musicals) and provides rigs for local fests during most weeks of the summer....  His gear IS dated BUT he makes it sound good  all-the-time.  I've been on both sides of the mic at his productions and all is good.

In closing: Once you establish a reputation of giving a client great service (sound/tech/ease of service=communication), you can bring what (gear) you need to do the gig.  if the client is happy, you have another "annual" to add to your yearly schedule.

An assumption: there is alot more B gear in use for pro production than you (I) think....the techs make it work.

Mike M   
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 23, 2014, 09:42:22 pm
Hello: A local sound guy has switched over to Berringer powered monitors (15 powered) and has added a B digital mixer....  he does quite a few "yearly"  local (hs/col) musical sound plus summer mulitband festivals.   In his words the summer festivals look for "gear" ie; name brands, etc. while the show people look for what works...
His sound co gigs throughout the winter on a weekly basis (doing shows/musicals) and provides rigs for local fests during most weeks of the summer....  His gear IS dated BUT he makes it sound good  all-the-time.  I've been on both sides of the mic at his productions and all is good.

In closing: Once you establish a reputation of giving a client great service (sound/tech/ease of service=communication), you can bring what (gear) you need to do the gig.  if the client is happy, you have another "annual" to add to your yearly schedule.

An assumption: there is alot more B gear in use for pro production than you (I) think....the techs make it work.

Mike M

Sorry but this simply isn't true. You can have all the established reputation in the world. at the end of the day you have to be willing to provide what the client wants or turn them away; be it own the gear they are asking for or renting. Many bands will come through and request the Avid SC48,  and specifically JBL SRX712M stage monitors.

It's about the bands/production manager knowing that the gear will provide the show they are wanting - and I'm sure it's not behringer speakers/monitors.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Penkala on April 23, 2014, 09:50:54 pm
Sorry but this simply isn't true. You can have all the established reputation in the world. at the end of the day you have to be willing to provide what the client wants or turn them away; be it own the gear they are asking for or renting. Many bands will come through and request the Avid SC48,  and specifically JBL SRX712M stage monitors.

It's about the bands/production manager knowing that the gear will provide the show they are wanting - and I'm sure it's not behringer speakers/monitors.

I think the OP was describing the relationship/trust component of what I call "community sound".  I don't think he was refering to meeting rider specs.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 24, 2014, 04:23:39 am
Community sound would be a good description for what I do.  Plenty of Behringer to be seen with guys doing what I do.  Plenty of Behringer with small bands doing their own sound. 

I've NEVER seen any Behringer with the full-time sound companies around my city.  I've never seen them have even an x32 out.  I've heard they have bought some, I've just never seen them used.

Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve Oldridge on April 24, 2014, 10:49:00 am
I've NEVER seen any Behringer with the full-time sound companies around my city.  I've never seen them have even an x32 out.  I've heard they have bought some, I've just never seen them used.
Me neither.. played at an SR provider gig 2 weeks ago... custom built subs, looked like 2 x SR or PR725's each side for tops, macrotech amps, and a Presonus 24.4.2 console.  Sounded good, but the provider placed the console on the "wrong" side of the stage, so had "bright sun" challenges for more than half the gig (4 bands). He did mix out front quite a bit with his iPad, until it went into thermal shutdown and he had to come back on stage while it reset itself. LOL.
No B*ringer for that provider.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Thomas Le on April 24, 2014, 01:29:37 pm
Me neither.. played at an SR provider gig 2 weeks ago... custom built subs, looked like 2 x SR or PR725's each side for tops, macrotech amps, and a Presonus 24.4.2 console.  Sounded good, but the provider placed the console on the "wrong" side of the stage, so had "bright sun" challenges for more than half the gig (4 bands). He did mix out front quite a bit with his iPad, until it went into thermal shutdown and he had to come back on stage while it reset itself. LOL.
No B*ringer for that provider.

That's just plain stupidity leaving the console out in the sun and placing it on stage. It would've been better to have a tent and place the console where the audience area is, but that's just me...
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Penkala on April 24, 2014, 01:36:26 pm
That's just plain stupidity leaving the console out in the sun and placing it on stage. It would've been better to have a tent and place the console where the audience area is, but that's just me...

FWIW, You don't always get to pick your FOH position. Incidentally, there's alot of small time operators who don't even own a snake so that they could even be out front.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Patrick Tracy on April 24, 2014, 02:00:17 pm
looked like 2 x SR or PR725's each side for tops

I might have asked if they could be splayed out.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 24, 2014, 02:32:01 pm
FWIW, You don't always get to pick your FOH position. Incidentally, there's alot of small time operators who don't even own a snake so that they could even be out front.

We try to get the FOH position that delivers the best experience for the client's AUDIENCE.  And we pitch it to the client in that way; that this directly benefits the folks who came to the event, the ticket buyers, supporters of the charity or the friends & family who attend a private event.

We don't do outdoor weddings where Bridezilla's wedding planner insists on an invisible sound system with the Invisible Man operating.  We try to avoid that level of neurosis and psychopathy... and yes, we do "little gigs" as well as arenas and theaters so I know what some of you are up against.  Sometimes you just have to tell a client that you're unwilling to risk YOUR reputation to accede to their desire for a mediocre show.  Nobody remembers the 1000 flawless shows you've done; they'll only talk about the *one* shitty gig you had where the failures were caused by client insistence in deviation from your normal proven procedures, materials and techniques.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Jerome Malsack on April 24, 2014, 02:48:13 pm
From the stand of the small, very small power.  I am all analog still at this point.
Running the snake into the grass is OK but not always possible.  One of the fun aspects of this is providing a digit wifi from an analog system.  So Your notes the other day have opened that door with a wifi app to the ipad connecting to the laptop that runs a Behringer cybermix 8000 giving my control of 24 channels of VCA on the laptop.  This old school toys are adding up to make some working solution.  Not total digital desk but usable. 
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: John Penkala on April 24, 2014, 11:38:33 pm
We try to get the FOH position that delivers the best experience for the client's AUDIENCE.  And we pitch it to the client in that way; that this directly benefits the folks who came to the event, the ticket buyers, supporters of the charity or the friends & family who attend a private event.

We don't do outdoor weddings where Bridezilla's wedding planner insists on an invisible sound system with the Invisible Man operating.  We try to avoid that level of neurosis and psychopathy... and yes, we do "little gigs" as well as arenas and theaters so I know what some of you are up against.  Sometimes you just have to tell a client that you're unwilling to risk YOUR reputation to accede to their desire for a mediocre show.  Nobody remembers the 1000 flawless shows you've done; they'll only talk about the *one* shitty gig you had where the failures were caused by client insistence in deviation from your normal proven procedures, materials and techniques.

+1

Excellent philosophy and insight as always, Tim. 
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 25, 2014, 01:26:06 am
+1

Excellent philosophy and insight as always, Tim.

It's more cranky old guy observation - no good deed goes unpunished.  By the time a one-guy shop deals with some of the stuff he's asked to do, he's out of his experience level and comfort zone.  That, inevitably, is when shit happens.

We're all in the ultimate customer-service business and we want our client's clients to have a great experience; we want our customers to "look good."  That's the basis of a good business model; the rub comes when clients want to micromanage details in ways that deviate from practices known to deliver needed results.

Lights can make all kinds of fan noise, movers can go berserk, and everyone is still happy; the PA must be invisible, supply 60dB of EAG, involve no wires and be powered by lemon-scented unicorn farts or there will be great wailing and gnashing of teeth.

With my luck, somebody will be allergic to lemon scent...
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 25, 2014, 03:49:43 am
Community sound would be a good description for what I do.  Plenty of Behringer to be seen with guys doing what I do.  Plenty of Behringer with small bands doing their own sound. 

I've NEVER seen any Behringer with the full-time sound companies around my city.  I've never seen them have even an x32 out.  I've heard they have bought some, I've just never seen them used.

There is no shame in using Behringer gear, if that matches the price/performance point you choose to operate at.

I have Behringer amps in my roadcases.  They have never let me down.  Using something 4x the price would mean not having lights, or electrical distribution, or something else.  It takes a lot of gear to do a whole show.  The amps probably represent 10% of the dollar value of the gear I take out.  If I chose to put a heap more money into my gear, better amps wouldn't be at the top of my list.

But everyone's circumstances are different.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve Oldridge on April 25, 2014, 12:18:35 pm
That's just plain stupidity leaving the console out in the sun and placing it on stage. It would've been better to have a tent and place the console where the audience area is, but that's just me...

I'll agree that it probably wasn't the smartest move, but smaller operators I've worked with tend to have a fixed setup.. like console always goes on stage left.  In this case, I believe positioning was triggered by the POWER being rear stage left, so amp rack, console, etc. ended up that side due to cabling restrictions. You can see the grey power box on the far right back behind the console in the 2nd pic in my op.

Also, Presonus console can be run remotely via iPad, so other than the sun aspect, there's no need to run a snake and put it out front like a traditional setup.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Thomas Le on April 25, 2014, 01:28:02 pm
I'll agree that it probably wasn't the smartest move, but smaller operators I've worked with tend to have a fixed setup.. like console always goes on stage left.  In this case, I believe positioning was triggered by the POWER being rear stage left, so amp rack, console, etc. ended up that side due to cabling restrictions. You can see the grey power box on the far right back behind the console in the 2nd pic in my op.

Also, Presonus console can be run remotely via iPad, so other than the sun aspect, there's no need to run a snake and put it out front like a traditional setup.

True and Not exactly at both points on the Presonus, the StudioLive doesn't have full control on the iPad/iPhone app since there's no recallable HA and faders. At this point in time, for the same price of the 24.4.2; I could get an X32, a QU24, or an Si Expression 2 and have all control on the iPad.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Lyle Williams on April 25, 2014, 05:23:47 pm
Wasn't it the ipad that didn't like the heat, not the mixer?
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Bob Kidd on April 26, 2014, 02:06:48 am
Me neither.. played at an SR provider gig 2 weeks ago... custom built subs, looked like 2 x SR or PR725's each side for tops, macrotech amps, and a Presonus 24.4.2 console.  Sounded good, but the provider placed the console on the "wrong" side of the stage, so had "bright sun" challenges for more than half the gig (4 bands). He did mix out front quite a bit with his iPad, until it went into thermal shutdown and he had to come back on stage while it reset itself. LOL.
No B*ringer for that provider.

They are srx 725s on top.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on April 27, 2014, 11:51:50 am
I might have asked if they could be splayed out.

Maybe it’s a dual PA, vocals only in one and instruments in the other. If it is then you wouldn’t want them splayed.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Patrick Tracy on April 27, 2014, 12:08:49 pm
Maybe it’s a dual PA, vocals only in one and instruments in the other. If it is then you wouldn’t want them splayed.

Good point - hadn't thought of that. I'd still rather have the coverage.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve Oldridge on April 27, 2014, 12:14:49 pm
True and Not exactly at both points on the Presonus, the StudioLive doesn't have full control on the iPad/iPhone app since there's no recallable HA and faders. At this point in time, for the same price of the 24.4.2; I could get an X32, a QU24, or an Si Expression 2 and have all control on the iPad.
agree, but they did basic setup from the console, them mixed from out front. yes, trim is manual, no motorized faders, and so on. Rest is recallable. I have one :0)
and yes, one can get those mixers in same price point.. now.  I have no knowledge of how long the provider had the console, just that there were issues reading meters in the sunlight.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve Oldridge on April 27, 2014, 12:15:24 pm
Maybe it’s a dual PA, vocals only in one and instruments in the other. If it is then you wouldn’t want them splayed.
It wasn't.. standard config.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve Oldridge on April 27, 2014, 12:16:38 pm
Wasn't it the ipad that didn't like the heat, not the mixer?

yup.. it was the ipad that went into thermal shutdown due to heat/sun..  The presonus never missed a beat.
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Jerome Malsack on April 27, 2014, 03:46:09 pm
I have used my 10 x 10 pop up to provide some shade. Placed a comfy chair and table under the popup along with caution tape on sides to keep most people out.  Cooler for the water.  Fan for the feet to stay cool.   A battery and inverter to run the fan ??     If your mixing the show you need to keep from getting the heat exhausted. 

If there is money in the budget  throw in a 12 x 12 stage with 24 or 48 inch rise so the IPad mixing can see the stage over the top of the people around the stage. 
Title: Re: Brand name cost me gigs
Post by: Steve Oldridge on April 28, 2014, 02:48:05 pm
I have used my 10 x 10 pop up to provide some shade. Placed a comfy chair and table under the popup along with caution tape on sides to keep most people out.  Cooler for the water.  Fan for the feet to stay cool.   A battery and inverter to run the fan ??     If your mixing the show you need to keep from getting the heat exhausted. 

If there is money in the budget  throw in a 12 x 12 stage with 24 or 48 inch rise so the IPad mixing can see the stage over the top of the people around the stage.

LOL +1000%. but I wasn't the provider for the event from my pics above above.. just the guitar player in one of the bands they put one.