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Title: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Adrian Bamford on February 18, 2014, 09:20:46 am
Hi All,

Does anyone know what size compression driver is in the Tannoy VQ60, VQ100 and the down-fill boxes ? It's referred to in all the Tannoy specs simply as 'Dual Concentric Compression driver loaded into a single PSW Waveguide'; no size given.

I've recently visited a venue with several of these boxes flown, and the high-end is not great - like the PA had a blanket over it. I'm looking to find out why.
Regards,

Ade
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 18, 2014, 09:39:51 am
Hi All,

Does anyone know what size compression driver is in the Tannoy VQ60, VQ100 and the down-fill boxes ? It's referred to in all the Tannoy specs simply as 'Dual Concentric Compression driver loaded into a single PSW Waveguide'; no size given.

I've recently visited a venue with several of these boxes flown, and the high-end is not great - like the PA had a blanket over it. I'm looking to find out why.
Regards,

Ade

System tuning and voicing, perhaps.  There are lots of complicated bits between the microphone and loudspeaker.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Adrian Bamford on February 18, 2014, 10:49:00 am
Granted - but this is Just a Beta '58 into an AH iLive console input with flat everything, then into a Labgruppen C:28.4, and then into the VQ60. A professional sound system shouldn't, and usually doesn't, take any form of system tuning to make that sound at least passable.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 18, 2014, 11:09:05 am
Granted - but this is Just a Beta '58 into an AH iLive console input with flat everything, then into a Labgruppen C:28.4, and then into the VQ60. A professional sound system shouldn't, and usually doesn't, take any form of system tuning to make that sound at least passable.

Have you taken your concerns to Tannoy?
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Mike Pyle on February 18, 2014, 11:28:04 am
Granted - but this is Just a Beta '58 into an AH iLive console input with flat everything, then into a Labgruppen C:28.4, and then into the VQ60. A professional sound system shouldn't, and usually doesn't, take any form of system tuning to make that sound at least passable.

The VQ60 and VQ100 are both spec'ed as "bi-amp or tri-amp" systems, so there must be an active crossover or processing in there somewhere. As to the driver sizes, here is a description from an A&E sheet on the web:

"The loudspeaker shall consist of a Dual Concentric™ Compression driver with a 3.5” Midrange voice coil and a 2” High Frequency voice coil, both mounted in a common subsystem with a common 2" exit. This Dual Concentric™ compression driver shall be coupled to a PSW™ (Point Source Waveguide) constant directivity horn operating over the frequency range of 450Hz to 23kHz. The low frequency section consists of two 12” (300mm) woofers, and shall be mounted in a semi-horn loaded enclosure to provide significant off axis attenuation below 450Hz."
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 18, 2014, 11:57:21 am
Granted - but this is Just a Beta '58 into an AH iLive console input with flat everything, then into a Labgruppen C:28.4, and then into the VQ60. A professional sound system shouldn't, and usually doesn't, take any form of system tuning to make that sound at least passable.

There seems to be a critical component missing from that signal chain, the crossover. The VQ-60 is bi amp or tri amp only, you must have an active crossover or DSP and 2 or 3 amp channels to power all of the drivers.

HERE (http://www.tannoy.com/products/303/VQ%2060%20Datasheet_201144.pdf) is the spec sheet.

Mac
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Jens Palm Bacher on February 18, 2014, 12:21:20 pm
Hi All,

Does anyone know what size compression driver is in the Tannoy VQ60, VQ100 and the down-fill boxes ? It's referred to in all the Tannoy specs simply as 'Dual Concentric Compression driver loaded into a single PSW Waveguide'; no size given.

I've recently visited a venue with several of these boxes flown, and the high-end is not great - like the PA had a blanket over it. I'm looking to find out why.
Regards,

Ade
BMS 4592
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: gordonmcgregor on February 18, 2014, 02:00:23 pm
Granted - but this is Just a Beta '58 into an AH iLive console input with flat everything, then into a Labgruppen C:28.4, and then into the VQ60. A professional sound system shouldn't, and usually doesn't, take any form of system tuning to make that sound at least passable.

As has been said there needs to be at least a bi-amp crossover and I would say that a lack of high end is not the usual complaint with these boxes so something isn't set or wired right, there should be enough  power in that amp to drive 2 cabs in bi amp mode at least. If it bothers you and you can get access to the amps etc have a look for whatever processor is there and check it's settings with the ones published on Tannoy's website. G
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Adrian Bamford on February 18, 2014, 02:17:38 pm
Thanks all, It's not really my gig or anything; I was asked to take a listen because no-one could get any vocal level in a band situation. A complete lack of real high-end stick out like s sore thumb. I'll dig a little deeper and see what's going on. Ade
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Art Welter on February 18, 2014, 02:35:19 pm
Thanks all, It's not really my gig or anything; I was asked to take a listen because no-one could get any vocal level in a band situation. A complete lack of real high-end stick out like s sore thumb. I'll dig a little deeper and see what's going on. Ade
A complete lack of high end would indicate the HF portion of the coax is burnt out, leaving virtually no response (steep roll off) above around 6 kHz.

Beta 58 would sound like it has a pair of gym socks over it.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 18, 2014, 02:48:11 pm
A complete lack of high end would indicate the HF portion of the coax is burnt out, leaving virtually no response (steep roll off) above around 6 kHz.

Beta 58 would sound like it has a pair of gym socks over it.

The description of the signal chain indicates that the high end doesn't even have an amp attached to it. It's harder to blow the driver that way. Or full range audio is connected to both the low and the mid/hi inputs to the speaker, in which case the drivers may in fact be blown. In either case it is a gross misuse of a pretty good speaker.

Mac
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 18, 2014, 07:32:31 pm
BMS 4592
I have only seen the inside of 1 VQ cabinet and the driver was not the BMS4592.

It was a large ceramic coax driver that did not look anything like the BMS.

Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Adrian Bamford on February 19, 2014, 07:03:12 am
OK - misinformation. Turns out that what they actually have up there is the VQMB and a VQ85 down-fill  underneath - three hangs, L, R & Ctr. Each hang is being run full-range with a channel of the Lab C:28.4. The system does indeed sound like a Gym sock is in place. They blew all the HF in the DF cabs recently and had them replaced so now they're brand new but still sound like socks. I sympathise as I would probably blow the HF myself if I had to do a band with this system - there's no way a vocal would cut through. I've not used this gear before so I'm interested to know whether anyone has had a similar, or dissimilar, experience.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Mike Pyle on February 19, 2014, 10:47:22 am
OK - misinformation. Turns out that what they actually have up there is the VQMB and a VQ85 down-fill  underneath - three hangs, L, R & Ctr. Each hang is being run full-range with a channel of the Lab C:28.4. The system does indeed sound like a Gym sock is in place. They blew all the HF in the DF cabs recently and had them replaced so now they're brand new but still sound like socks. I sympathise as I would probably blow the HF myself if I had to do a band with this system - there's no way a vocal would cut through. I've not used this gear before so I'm interested to know whether anyone has had a similar, or dissimilar, experience.

At the least, they are still missing a crossover between the MB and the DF. If the MB is being run full range without processing I expect it sounds awful. If that has been overlooked there is no telling what else may be wrong.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: gordonmcgregor on February 19, 2014, 01:27:58 pm
At the least, they are still missing a crossover between the MB and the DF. If the MB is being run full range without processing I expect it sounds awful. If that has been overlooked there is no telling what else may be wrong.
The DF and MB boxes are effectively a VQ cabinet separated into 2 independant boxes it allows you to make up clusters to suit the individual installation, at the very least there has to be an active crossover of around 450Hz between the 2 sections and probably a high pass of 90Hz on the the MB box would not be a bad idea. Continued use this way will blow the system again (probably already has by the sound of it) and I know that co-ax is not a cheap device to replace, even a cheap Behringer DSP will do if money is an issue, also the DF cab really only needs about 400w max  so there's way more power than needed there as well.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Adrian Bamford on February 20, 2014, 05:46:58 am
Thanks for the comments. It seems that the HF shouldn't be suspect in this system if it's installed properly; which was the point of my initial question. There's no system management unit, so likely no crossover between the VQMH and down-fill box. This would seem to be the prime suspect as the VQMH trying to reproduce HF, alongside the VQDF trying to reproduce low end - well! Currently, 125Hz X-over (for the dual 18 subs) and all delay settings are achieved through the digital console.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 20, 2014, 07:24:07 am
Thanks for the comments. It seems that the HF shouldn't be suspect in this system if it's installed properly; which was the point of my initial question. There's no system management unit, so likely no crossover between the VQMH and down-fill box. This would seem to be the prime suspect as the VQMH trying to reproduce HF, alongside the VQDF trying to reproduce low end - well! Currently, 125Hz X-over (for the dual 18 subs) and all delay settings are achieved through the digital console.
A few measurements would go A LONG way and help to stop "guessing".

People can speculate all day long-but a quick measurement can show all kinds of things----------

I had a case in which the contractor had many many trips to the job site-brought in many people to listen etc because stereo system did not "sound" the same  and had a different tonal character as was not "balanced" when standing in the middle.

A quick measurement showed one side a couple of dB louder than the other.  There was some 'double routing" in the digital console.

So many hours had been spent "speculating" and a 20 second measurement showed the problem.

Why measure when you can listen and guess and waste lots of time and feel you are "special"--------

Just sayin'-----------------------------
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Adrian Bamford on February 20, 2014, 10:23:07 am
Hi Ivan, I'm all for measuring when it comes to system tuning & setup, but I think it has to be established that the install has been done in a fundamentally correct manner first. This system has been incorrectly installed. There are no electronic crossovers feeding the main system; until that's put right, nothing's going to sound OK.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 20, 2014, 11:41:14 am
Hi Ivan, I'm all for measuring when it comes to system tuning & setup, but I think it has to be established that the install has been done in a fundamentally correct manner first. This system has been incorrectly installed. There are no electronic crossovers feeding the main system; until that's put right, nothing's going to sound OK.

And a measurement session could fully document the FUBAR install.  "See here?  No HF.  See there? Out of polarity LF...."
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Matthew Knischewsky on February 20, 2014, 12:15:34 pm
And a measurement session could fully document the FUBAR install.  "See here?  No HF.  See there? Out of polarity LF...."

+1.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Kevin McDonough on February 20, 2014, 02:14:04 pm
+1.


Hey

Yeah as far as I'm aware also, the Tannoy VQ cabinets use the BMS coax drivers.  I have heard them set up to sound stunning, and also use a pair of the same coax drivers in a set of my own DIY cabs and there is definetly no lack of HF.

So assuming as Gordon McGreggor says the cabs you are discussing are effectively the same components then it's almost certainly a blown driver or set up problem.

k

Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Brad Weber on February 21, 2014, 09:52:07 am
According to the product manual, among the the recommend processing for the VQ series speakers is a 24dB/octave, Linkwitz-Riley high pass filter at 400Hz or greater for the VQ DF boxes and a 48dB/octave, Linkwitz-Riley low pass filter at 500 Hz for the VQ MB.  So there should definitely be a crossover around 500Hz between the two boxes.
 
The VQ 85DF in passive mode is rated at 8 Ohms and 200W Continuous/400W Program with a 110dB at 1W/1m sensitivity.  The VQ MD is rated at 4 Ohms and 1,000W Continuous/2,000W Program with a 105dB at 1W/1m sensitivity.  The C 28:4 is rated at 700W into 4 Ohms or 8 Ohms.  I guess you could use the selectable Voltage Peak Limiter to limit the outputs for the DF channels but unless they don't need the full output of the VQ MB that seems to be a somewhat unusual amp choice for either box.
 
Is there any system drawings or documentation?  If not then it sounds like it might be a good time to create some.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: gordonmcgregor on February 21, 2014, 01:09:37 pm
According to the product manual, among the the recommend processing for the VQ series speakers is a 24dB/octave, Linkwitz-Riley high pass filter at 400Hz or greater for the VQ DF boxes and a 48dB/octave, Linkwitz-Riley low pass filter at 500 Hz for the VQ MB.  So there should definitely be a crossover around 500Hz between the two boxes.
 
The VQ 85DF in passive mode is rated at 8 Ohms and 200W Continuous/400W Program with a 110dB at 1W/1m sensitivity.  The VQ MD is rated at 4 Ohms and 1,000W Continuous/2,000W Program with a 105dB at 1W/1m sensitivity.  The C 28:4 is rated at 700W into 4 Ohms or 8 Ohms.  I guess you could use the selectable Voltage Peak Limiter to limit the outputs for the DF channels but unless they don't need the full output of the VQ MB that seems to be a somewhat unusual amp choice for either box.
 
Is there any system drawings or documentation?  If not then it sounds like it might be a good time to create some.
Brad unless the place is massive I doubt they'll need the full power of the system so yes the amp is a bit low  and they now probably don't have enough amp channels to bi-amp the system correctly, so I suspect some more amps and a crossover are going to be appearing soon or else the rig'll sit there and do nothing which would be a shame
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Brad Weber on February 21, 2014, 05:26:25 pm
Brad unless the place is massive I doubt they'll need the full power of the system so yes the amp is a bit low  and they now probably don't have enough amp channels to bi-amp the system correctly, so I suspect some more amps and a crossover are going to be appearing soon or else the rig'll sit there and do nothing which would be a shame
I understand in terms of using a C 28:4 to drive the the VQ MB boxes, but if the VQ 85DF boxes were powered by channels of a C 28:4 then I'd be concerned that the associated VPL DIP switches on the amplifier should be set to properly limit the potential amplifier output for those channels.  If they have to get an an additional amplifier it may make sense to get a C 16:4 for the VQ 85DF boxes.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: gordonmcgregor on February 21, 2014, 07:10:07 pm
I understand in terms of using a C 28:4 to drive the the VQ MB boxes, but if the VQ 85DF boxes were powered by channels of a C 28:4 then I'd be concerned that the associated VPL DIP switches on the amplifier should be set to properly limit the potential amplifier output for those channels.  If they have to get an an additional amplifier it may make sense to get a C 16:4 for the VQ 85DF boxes.
yes I agree with you completely, Adrian didn't say where this is but I suspect a community theatre which has either run out of money during the fit out, the spec was wrong or the contractor hasn't completed the job for some reason probably money or time related. I wouldn't be suprised if a thorough search of the tech rooms and store rooms won't throw up all the equipment required waiting to be either patched in or actually installed.
 Unfortunately this happens all too often  there's one near me where the amateur companies who raised the money for it can't use it due to the costs and the tech fit out ( which is unfinished as well) is not suitable for volunteer usage so they have to pay for professional techs which bumps the cost up again so only the biggest groups can use it and only just break even if at all. G
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: paul bell on February 21, 2014, 11:40:17 pm
This is all interesting

I'm working on a job with custom (read: home made) three way boxes with ribbons, 6" mids and 12" lows. ALL drivers of TWO cabinets are connected to a single amp channel running full range.

And NL4 plugs without the the latch shell on them-just twisted into the amps.

Not bad looking boxes tho, I think they'll sound somewhat decent after I make it all proper.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: gordonmcgregor on February 22, 2014, 04:21:54 am
This is all interesting

I'm working on a job with custom (read: home made) three way boxes with ribbons, 6" mids and 12" lows. ALL drivers of TWO cabinets are connected to a single amp channel running full range.

And NL4 plugs without the the latch shell on them-just twisted into the amps.

Not bad looking boxes tho, I think they'll sound somewhat decent after I make it all proper.

So should this lot as well, which is the worst part of the whole thing. I've used some of the VQs and for theatre or church use they are very good, easy to hang and in my experience do what the specs say, they may lack a bit in low mid for some people but you can rein in the horn and add a bit of eq and then it's usually fine.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Aaron Smithski on February 23, 2014, 04:50:51 pm
I have only seen the inside of 1 VQ cabinet and the driver was not the BMS4592.

It was a large ceramic coax driver that did not look anything like the BMS.

After reading Ivan's post I had to investigate further and pop out one of the amps from the pair of VQ 60 NET LIVE boxes here and sure enough, it isn't a 4592 (as I thought it was as well). Perhaps Tannoy had a running change or something, but my boxes were assembled in January of 2010 and use the 4590 instead of the 4592. That's kind of a bummer as obviously it would be better to have the neo magnet...although I have other 4590 and 4592 drivers here and can't tell a difference in SQ. It would be nice to have the 15 lbs. shaved off the fat pig cabs though...  :)

Has anybody that has used/installed these actually confirmed if a 4592 was in place?

Also, regarding the amp, I had assumed they would be Lab Gruppen pieces, but in actuality are Xpod dsp all-in-one assemblies from Linea Research.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 23, 2014, 05:30:08 pm
After reading Ivan's post I had to investigate further and pop out one of the amps from the pair of VQ 60 NET LIVE boxes here and sure enough, it isn't a 4592 (as I thought it was as well). Perhaps Tannoy had a running change or something, but my boxes were assembled in January of 2010 and use the 4590 instead of the 4592.
Has anybody that has used/installed these actually confirmed if a 4592 was in place?


Thanks for confirming that.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Aaron Smithski on February 23, 2014, 05:48:07 pm
Thanks for confirming that.

Glad to help out.
Title: Re: Tannoy VQ series compression driver
Post by: Brad Weber on February 24, 2014, 11:47:47 am
Just to clarify for those who may not be aware, the Tannoy VQ boxes are available in non-powered VQ versions or powered VQNET versions with onboard Tannoy VNET network controlled DSP.  It sounds like the installation Adrian is addressing uses the non-powered VQ models while Aaron has the powered VQNET versions.