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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: AllenDeneau on December 09, 2013, 12:46:37 pm

Title: Help EASE modeling
Post by: AllenDeneau on December 09, 2013, 12:46:37 pm
Hey all, I am hoping to find someone who can do some work for me in regards of modeling our church sanctuary with EASE. I've been working with Ivan on a new system possibly but it's looking like it'll be 2015 before I can get any kind of ok for that SO... I need to address the deployment issues I ahve within our sanctuary currently and make the sound as good as it can be with what we have..

We've got decent gear and a nice room but it's the scattered deployment of the mains that's causing the issues. The "contractor" that installed the system was not a install contractor IMO, more like just sales people... We have a very wide room and not too deep and the comb filtering is horrendous...

I have a CAD layout of the room with all the gear info and measurements I just need to find someone who's willing to do some "at home" modeling to help me confirm my re-deployment plan or debunk it and help come up with a new plan.

If you're good at EASE and have the JBL Am series speakers in your EASE data and wouldn't mind working with me please shoot me an email and let's discuss pricing etc....

Thanks all.
Title: Re: Help EASE modeling
Post by: Brad Weber on December 10, 2013, 08:47:08 am
Creating an EASE model and adding in AM series speakers sounds simple but could range greatly in effort depending on the actual intent.  Are you essentially looking for someone to recommend a system using the existing components or are you thinking an interactive process where you want to examine multiple 'what if' situations?  It is one thing for someone to offer a suggested solution and possibly quite another for them to address multiple iterations or variations on one or more system approaches.
Would a simple direct coverage look suffice or are you wanting to also consider the effects of the room and the acoustical environment?  And if the latter is desired, would it make sense to also document the existing acoustical consitions on site in order to verify and refine the accuracy of the model?
What kind of documentation is desired and how will it be used?  Is the goal simply the resulting design or do you want 'pretty pictures' to help exhibit and support the changes proposed?
Just trying to better understand your goals and the effort potentially involved.  And given some of the other recent discussions here, also wanted to further address how "modeling" a system can represent a wide range of accuracy and effort.
Title: Help EASE modeling
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on December 10, 2013, 09:27:47 am
If Ivan has already created an EASE model of the room, would he be able
to supply that model to you so the Danley speakers could be removed and replaced with JBL? That would save your volunteer a little time.
Title: Re: Help EASE modeling
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 10, 2013, 10:32:43 am
If Ivan has already created an EASE model of the room, would he be able
to supply that model to you so the Danley speakers could be removed and replaced with JBL? That would save your volunteer a little time.
I did a model in Danley DDT modeling software, and the JBL speakers cannot be imported into that.
Title: Re: Help EASE modeling
Post by: AllenDeneau on December 10, 2013, 03:36:54 pm
Hi All, thanks for the replys.

Ivan has been a God send and as soon as I can get the leadership to entertain an upgrade, we'll be making some changes.

Ivan, thanks again. The idea isn't dead completely, I'm still waiting for the rep to get me $$$ and then I want to set up a demo with him to "show" the leadership why this is necessary... Stay tuned.

Brad, I've been trying to work with JBL in geting a room plot done and the guy I've been speaking with says he's working on it but I still haven't gotten anything. However during one of our conversations he did tell me he sees that we do need a "delay" speaker in the center, as we have them now, to get coverage but that makes me a bit sceptical since the room is only 55' deep and the Xti powered JBL's have plenty of output...

My minimum goal in asking for an EASE model is to help me affirm that I can get better coverage and less interference with our existing gear and help shape my new deployment plan. IMO, I can't see the need, especially in the shallow center of the room, to have a pair of delay speakers, which BTW, aren't delayed at all :(

Ultimately I'd love to be able to pry the checkbook open to bring someone in and measure the room, test the system and then help us address the interference issues but I'm having difficulty in getting the people above me to realize that's the best solution and in the end may be the best expenditure of $$$.

I know there are some "what if" scenarios but what I'm really looking for is the best possible layout given the current gear and room and then we can see how much of an improvement we'll see.

I know there's much more involved, I was really justhoping to get some suggestion as to best possbile scenarios for speaker deployment. I'd love to have some "pretty pictures" to give visualization to what's happening and how it'll be corrected but that'd be icing on the cake.

I'm pretty decent at setting up a portable sound system and getting the best I can from it given room, etc... but an install is above me. Before I start moving speakers, especially since I broke my leg lest week and had to have surgery and no I'm restricted to ZERO weight bearing for 8 weeks, I'd like to have a good jumping off point for a plan.

I'm sure I could re-hang the boxes by "sight & sound" and get a number of the issues corrected but I'm a little more hopeful in getting us as good as we can get until the proposed expansion.

Does that better explain what I'm asking? Sorry if it's a jibberish mess, these pain killers are doing an amazing job of helping me elude lucidity...

For anyone interested, here's the room layout, speaker deployment and pics with issues listed.
Title: Re: Help EASE modeling
Post by: AllenDeneau on December 13, 2013, 01:40:53 pm
Any other info to share? Thanks.
Title: Re: Help EASE modeling
Post by: chuck clark on February 26, 2014, 10:43:43 pm
Hi Allen. Ok, first take those outside subs and make them the inside subs. What I mean is make a center cluster w/ what are currently the outside subs. If the center subs are a foot or two forward of the other subs- Good!  A slight time delay from the center subs to the other subs will widen the dispersion a bit. The reduced distance between the subs should significantly reduce the fairly severe lobing effects your now getting.

Now take your "delay" speakers down. Then adjust the "down" angle of the stage lip speakers so they are right on axis with listeners ears in the back row. Now hang the old "delay" speakers underneath the old lip fills with enough down angle to just start hitting from the first row of listeners. This should solve about 70-90% of your coverage issues.

Mind you this may require fine tuning and just gets you in the ballpark useing my 30 yrs of experience and a thorough understanding of the underlying acoustic principals.  Ha! My tools were an rta and a techtronics dual trace oscilloscope and a signal generator and a decent measurement mic for so long. I'm just starting to shop for some digital software so I can print out pretty pictures of what I'm talking about to church personnel!

Hope this helps you out. I just had to say something because there's no way you get 10db of dropoff in 50 ft unless your leaving the coverage area of the horns!  Hope this helps you out. let us know how this works out and let me know if you find some decent inexpensive measurment software.  I'm shopping for something as nifty as spectrafoo but cheaper. Good luck too ME, huh?! Ha!
Happy sailing (on the sound waves)