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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: Frank DeWitt on November 13, 2013, 01:14:25 pm

Title: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Frank DeWitt on November 13, 2013, 01:14:25 pm
I found these on Ebay.  Dangerous?
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/6x-HDMI-2x-RJ45-3x-RCA-1x-VGA-1x-110V-AC-1x-COAX-F-PORTS-4-GANG-WHITE-FACE-PLATE-/00/s/NDgwWDY0MA==/$T2eC16d,!yUE9s6NFmHRBQ)6zGGqig~~60_3.JPG)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/6x-HDMI-2x-RJ45-3x-RCA-1x-VGA-1x-110V-AC-1x-COAX-F-PORTS-4-GANG-WHITE-FACE-PLATE-/00/s/NDgwWDY0MA==/$(KGrHqV,!n0FCrw!0+q(BQ)6zGGq8w~~60_3.JPG)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/AC-15A-110V-POWER-OUTLET-HDMI-USB-CAT5E-RJ45-5-RCA-AUDIO-VIDEO-WALLPLATE-/00/s/NjA5WDU5OA==/z/QR0AAOxyLchRrMm2/$(KGrHqR,!qgFGekSJ-HnBRrMm2L!HQ~~60_3.JPG)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Floor-Plate-Pop-Up-Duplex-Power-Receptacle-RJ45-Outlet-Socket-Brass-or-Nickel-/00/s/NjAwWDgwMA==/z/y3YAAOxyDLZSAXIs/$(KGrHqZHJBwFHnPmRwlEBS!(IstZPQ~~60_3.JPG)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Floor-Plate-Pop-Up-Duplex-Power-Receptacle-RJ45-Outlet-Socket-Brass-or-Nickel-/00/s/NjAwWDgwMA==/z/Qo4AAMXQVhFSAXN4/$T2eC16dHJIIFHJCQ5SgEBS!(N4I8gQ~~60_3.JPG)
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 13, 2013, 01:17:44 pm
Electricity doesn't kill people, people kill people.

JR
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on November 13, 2013, 01:52:49 pm
AFAIK, it is illegal to put AC and low voltage in the same box together.  I think the chances of this being UL-listed are pretty low.
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Steve M Smith on November 13, 2013, 04:48:35 pm
No reason why it should be dangerous if wired correctly.


Steve.
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 13, 2013, 04:54:18 pm
I found these on Ebay.  Dangerous?


Depends on the muzzle velocity...
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Corey Scogin on November 13, 2013, 05:05:12 pm
No reason why it should be dangerous if wired correctly.

To wire it correctly would mean throwing it in the trash and getting something safe.  Low voltage and 120V should never be in the same box.
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Cailen Waddell on November 13, 2013, 07:07:14 pm
Power and Data can be in the same box, with a solid grounded metal divider that divides the box, essentially creating two boxes from one with a single faceplate. This is done on numerous theatrical installations, and the boxes are UL listed assemblies.  I have a space with PowerCon and ethercon on a single faceplate with a divider going in right now.

Regardless that's clearly not the case on the OPs plates or pictures.  I would say, certainly a bad dangerous idea, and probably a code violation in most AHJs
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: John Moore on November 13, 2013, 10:46:20 pm
NEC Code violation, period. Cant do HV and LV in same box, must be separated in boxes so there is no potential. Wire insulation properties Code violation and the list goes on....
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Cailen Waddell on November 13, 2013, 11:07:35 pm

NEC Code violation, period. Cant do HV and LV in same box, must be separated in boxes so there is no potential. Wire insulation properties Code violation and the list goes on....

Examples of UL listed boxes with voltage dividers:
http://www.ssrconline.com/HLV_strip.pdf
http://www.ssrconline.com/HLV_box.pdf

I've also got them from ETC.

It's a single box with a single faceplate with a interior voltage divider.  Has to be fed with separate conduit, on each side of the divider, but it can and is done.  Again, not the case for the OP, but they exist.
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Steve M Smith on November 14, 2013, 01:52:07 am
To wire it correctly would mean throwing it in the trash and getting something safe.  Low voltage and 120V should never be in the same box.

If those are the rules, then fair enough, but there is nothing inherently dangerous if wired correctly.  I'm sure there are many pieces of equipment in existence with similar spacing internally.

I don't think I would use this outlet myself, I would much rather have them on separate faceplates, but just because it does not conform to the regulations, doesn't mean it is automatically dangerous.

Here in the UK, 120v is considered low voltage!!


Steve.
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Keith Broughton on November 14, 2013, 06:36:22 am
... but there is nothing inherently dangerous if wired correctly.
That cover phrase can be used for anything!
"If people drive correctly, there would be no accidents".."If you never fall off your bike, you don't need a helmet"...etc
Well, we all know, $hit happens and I'm good with the division of low and high voltage.
There is a reason they come up with these rules and chances are , some problem has reared it's head and caused a serious issue.
Those plates are not acceptable here in Ontario and I know my local inspector would kick my butt if I installed them.
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 16, 2013, 08:11:39 am
I recently finished rewiring my living room as part of the final reconstruction phase for my house (100 years old). I bought specialty plates for all of the audio, and separate fixtures for the AC. The only place I've seen those type plates were in ad's for Chinese stock. No combo high/low voltage fixtures were used in my new construction and I fell much better knowing that is the case. Now if I want to pull more cable or work in the box I'll know there's no 120v AC in there to kick my ass or otherwise run back through my low voltage cables possibly starting a fire, destroy my audio video system, kill the dog, sterilize sheep, or make babies cry. 
 
PS - The flip up floor fixtures are legal without the RJ-45, and actually common. Please note they show a steel box, and that is how they should be installed.
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Keith Broughton on November 16, 2013, 08:48:14 am
sterilize sheep,. 

Are they your sheep? Hmmmmmmmmm?
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on November 16, 2013, 12:12:05 pm
The receptacle is not tamper resistant so it is not legal for residential use anyway.  I also agree, I doubt it is UL listed and code requires listed equipment.

As a practical matter, if you need HDMI, RCA. RJ45 and USB connectors at a location, how in the world is one 120VAC receptacle adequate????  Yes they make power strips and I use them too often-but if you are doing an install why not put in enough receptacles to begin with and save the clutter?
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: John Livings on November 16, 2013, 02:22:17 pm
I found these on Ebay.  Dangerous?

Divided Junction Boxes have been used meeting the Code for "a long time" The key is to install the required dividers and assure the wire enters the J-Box behind the correct device.

The images shown do not show the J-Box with the correct dividers, and should be installed by a "Qualified Electrician"

J-Boxes are sold with and without the ability to install the Dividers, You must select the proper boxes Prior to wiring things up to any J-Box and expecting to find Dividers for your box.

http://www.garvinindustries.com/electrical-junction-boxes/multi-gang-boxes-covers-device-rings/multi-gang-box-device-partitions-dividers

Regards,  John
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Jeff Bankston on November 16, 2013, 03:46:13 pm


Here in the UK, 120v is considered low voltage!!


Steve.
here in the USA everthing 600 volts and below is considered low voltage. everything above 600 volts is considered high voltage. and thats also the reason you see 600 volts printed on thhn,thw,tw,thwn,etc wire. 6 volts,12 volts ,24 volts, 120 volts,208 volts,240,vots,277 volts , 480 volts , etc. is low voltage. 4160 is high votage and i aint high
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on November 17, 2013, 10:41:58 am
I found these on Ebay.  Dangerous?

Divided Junction Boxes have been used meeting the Code for "a long time" The key is to install the required dividers and assure the wire enters the J-Box behind the correct device.

The images shown do not show the J-Box with the correct dividers, and should be installed by a "Qualified Electrician"

J-Boxes are sold with and without the ability to install the Dividers, You must select the proper boxes Prior to wiring things up to any J-Box and expecting to find Dividers for your box.

http://www.garvinindustries.com/electrical-junction-boxes/multi-gang-boxes-covers-device-rings/multi-gang-box-device-partitions-dividers

Regards,  John
while that is generally true, this device cannot be divided, as power and low voltage are in the same gang. This device is dangerous and illegal.
Title: Re: Be afraid Be very afraid AC and RJ-45
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on November 18, 2013, 01:24:41 am
No reason why it should be dangerous if wired correctly.

Lots of back and forth here about that it's "dangerous." The only thing we've established here is that is a code violation to have 120V (or higher) AC systems and low-voltage signalling systems in the same undivided junction box space.

So what is the "danger?"

I see it as one of expectations: the average joe expects that signal wires will be at a voltage (and/or impedance) low enough to prevent electrical shock. When joe opens up the j-box to mess with the signal wires, he will be shocked (pun intended) to find 120V AC.

Scenario #2: damaged insulation on signal wires could contact 120V conductors and become energized. The circuit protective device (fuse, breaker, AFCI, etc.) may not be activated by this condition, which could lead to property damage or personal injury.

Scenario #3: noise could be induced from the 120V wires to the signal wires, contaminating the signal. However, there j-boxes with plastic barriers between the high- and low-voltage sides, and the only noise protection they offer is physical separation.