ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Scott Blackwell on October 18, 2013, 03:41:11 am

Title: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Scott Blackwell on October 18, 2013, 03:41:11 am
I have a client with a small church, 150 seats, that has purchased 4 K10's and wants me to fly them for them. @ 90 x 90 it's gonna be a problem. I was looking at replacing the horn lenses to narrow the vertical and horizontal patterns to 60 x 50 so I could vertically stack the boxes.

The room is typical small Church. 45'' wide about 65'' deep in front of FOH speakers.

I was looking at this as a possible option.

http://www.usspeaker.com/Faital%20Pro%20LTH102-1.htm

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks.
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on October 18, 2013, 07:26:14 am
Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks.

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: QSC K10 replacement horn lens to narrow vertical dispersion
Post by: Scott Blackwell on October 18, 2013, 11:53:10 pm
I have a client who purchased 4 K10's and wants me to install them at his church. 45' wide 65' deep in front of pic points. I was looking at replacing the horn lens and vertically stacking the boxes with the top box upside down, however the 90 x 90 will be an issue. I am looking at these

http://www.usspeaker.com/Faital%20Pro%20LTH102-1.htm (http://www.usspeaker.com/Faital%20Pro%20LTH102-1.htm)

Thoughts?

Title: Re: QSC K10 replacement horn lens to narrow vertical dispersion
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 19, 2013, 01:22:35 am
What does QSC say?
Title: Re: QSC K10 replacement horn lens to narrow vertical dispersion
Post by: Tim Perry on October 19, 2013, 02:57:00 am
I have a client who purchased 4 K10's and wants me to install them at his church. 45' wide 65' deep in front of pic points. I was looking at replacing the horn lens and vertically stacking the boxes with the top box upside down, however the 90 x 90 will be an issue. I am looking at these

http://www.usspeaker.com/Faital%20Pro%20LTH102-1.htm (http://www.usspeaker.com/Faital%20Pro%20LTH102-1.htm)

Thoughts?

Don't be silly.  Just put up one per side and use the other 2 for floor monitors
Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Tom Young on October 19, 2013, 08:04:02 am
I was looking at replacing the horn lenses to narrow the vertical and horizontal patterns to 60 x 50 so I could vertically stack the boxes.

If you change the horn you also change the cubic volume that the woofer sees, the frequency response of the HF driver, the acoustic output of the HF driver and the alignment between woofer and HF driver.

What do you end up with ? Who knows.

Not a good idea.
Title: Re: QSC K10 replacement horn lens to narrow vertical dispersion
Post by: Tim Perry on October 19, 2013, 10:48:30 am
Don't be silly.  Just put up one per side and use the other 2 for floor monitors

...or rig it as a dual PA... 2 for vocals 2 for instruments. 

Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 19, 2013, 10:49:16 am
I have a client with a small church, 150 seats, that has purchased 4 K10's and wants me to fly them for them. @ 90 x 90 it's gonna be a problem. I was looking at replacing the horn lenses to narrow the vertical and horizontal patterns to 60 x 50 so I could vertically stack the boxes.

The room is typical small Church. 45'' wide about 65'' deep in front of FOH speakers.

I was looking at this as a possible option.

http://www.usspeaker.com/Faital%20Pro%20LTH102-1.htm

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks.
You may not end up with what you think for the following reasons.

1: have you looked at the polar patterns of the horn you are suggesting?  It is only 50 vertical down to around 8Khz ish. So you only get the "control" in the top octave or so.  Is that really doing any good?

2: When you use a narrower pattern horn of the same size-the freq to which it has control goes UP-so there us usually LESS pattern control-especially where you need it.

3: Remember that when you get below the point to which the horn has control the pattern actually FLIPS-so it is opposite of what you "think" it is.

4: As Tom said-when you put a different horn on a driver all sorts of things are going to change.  The actual loading on the driver-which means the impedance is going to change-so the output and freq response is going to change.  Assuming there is delay to match up the woofer and HF driver-that is going to change due to the HF driver being in a different location.  This will cause a notch in the response you will not be able to fix.

I am not saying it won't work-but in reality it is most likely not going to do what you think it is-or want it to.

But as with so may things audio if you "think" it made a difference-then it probably did-at least in your mind.   

But measurements would prove otherwise.

But the REAL question is WHY did the customer buy speakers that won't do the job and have to be modified.  Overall it would have been much better to get a PROPER loudspeaker for the job-not something that a salesman talked them into.

But it happens all the time.  No wonder our industry is in such a  mess with bad sound systems all over the place.
Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Mike Pyle on October 19, 2013, 12:50:40 pm
The K10 horn is molded into the front half of the cabinet. For that reason and others mentioned it would be best to sell the K10s if they won't work and buy something that will.
Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Mike Sullivan on October 19, 2013, 01:37:46 pm
I have a client with a small church, 150 seats, that has purchased 4 K10's and wants me to fly them for them. @ 90 x 90 it's gonna be a problem. I was looking at replacing the horn lenses to narrow the vertical and horizontal patterns to 60 x 50 so I could vertically stack the boxes.

The room is typical small Church. 45'' wide about 65'' deep in front of FOH speakers.

I was looking at this as a possible option.

http://www.usspeaker.com/Faital%20Pro%20LTH102-1.htm

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks.

That is one tiny church! :P

I agree with above, either only use two (that would be all you need)
Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Craig Hauber on October 29, 2013, 06:56:00 pm
But the REAL question is WHY did the customer buy speakers that won't do the job and have to be modified.  Overall it would have been much better to get a PROPER loudspeaker for the job-not something that a salesman talked them into.

But it happens all the time.  No wonder our industry is in such a  mess with bad sound systems all over the place.
The industry is a mess because it is tuned to sell as much equipment to as many people as it can, but not to sell the actual "solutions" to people's audio needs.

Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 30, 2013, 08:54:48 am
The industry is a mess because it is tuned to sell as much equipment to as many people as it can, but not to sell the actual "solutions" to people's audio needs.

Well, it IS QSC's job to make a profit.



Look at Renkus-Heinz for small, flyable, self powered speakers in a variety of coverage patterns.
Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Brad Weber on October 30, 2013, 09:08:37 am
This is a pretty clear case of someone buying gear without first considering if it was appropriate for the situation.  The choices are pretty much to make the best of what you have or get something else that would be a better solution.
 
By the way, as Ivan noted, you may want to look a bit closer at the Faital horn you linked.  Based on the information shown they may be about 55x55 at 4kHz, but at 1kHz they are almost 120x120, at 2kHz around 70x75, at 8kHz about 45x45 and at 16kHz around 30x30.   And that is just the horn pattern without considering the effects of the enclosure, the interaction with the LF driver, etc.  So what would be the resulting effective pattern for your use?
Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Tim Perry on October 30, 2013, 08:42:00 pm
This is a pretty clear case of someone buying gear without first considering if it was appropriate for the situation.

K-10's in a tiny church?  ideal IMO... only 2 needed.  If they have to be louder I simply wouldn't want to be there.
Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 30, 2013, 09:50:17 pm
K-10's in a tiny church?  ideal IMO... only 2 needed.  If they have to be louder I simply wouldn't want to be there.
It depends on the Church.

We have many around here that are basically "concert venues".  Lots of lights (we have one that has close to 100 movers) video etc.

And they get quite loud.

There are quite a few that "worship the kick drum" or so it seems anyway.  Everything is done to get the impact of the kick drum.

And then we have plenty of traditional Churches that are speech only or light music and everything in between.

There is no "normal Church" -around here at least.
Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Tim Perry on October 31, 2013, 12:14:53 am
It depends on the Church.

We have many around here that are basically "concert venues".  Lots of lights (we have one that has close to 100 movers) video etc.

And they get quite loud.

There are quite a few that "worship the kick drum" or so it seems anyway.  Everything is done to get the impact of the kick drum.

And then we have plenty of traditional Churches that are speech only or light music and everything in between.

There is no "normal Church" -around here at least.

My clients are surprised when I refer to  there services as concerts... but they keep calling my back because they have discovered through experience that their house (or HOW) system simply fall apart when they attempt a special event.

In the pic here two K-10'a or 12's, hung appropriately, and with subs,  probably would have been easier to execute the show then the system I deployed.
Title: Re: Replacement Horn Lens to narrow throw on QSC K10
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 31, 2013, 10:46:12 am
It depends on the Church.

We have many around here that are basically "concert venues".  Lots of lights (we have one that has close to 100 movers) video etc.

And they get quite loud.

There are quite a few that "worship the kick drum" or so it seems anyway.  Everything is done to get the impact of the kick drum.

And then we have plenty of traditional Churches that are speech only or light music and everything in between.

There is no "normal Church" -around here at least.

I call those "The 10 a.m. God Show."  If you can't get butts in seats (or pews) without 100 movers and bone crushing LF, there is something wrong with the message or messenger.