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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: Jamin Lynch on September 19, 2013, 12:03:34 pm

Title: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jamin Lynch on September 19, 2013, 12:03:34 pm
Often we have to tie into the closest breaker panel due to lack of adequate power or no disconnect. We will insert our own set of breakers but often there is no separate ground bar in the panel. Is it "generally" OK to connect the ground wire to the neutral bar?

Thanks

Getting all my electrical questions out of the way today.  :) :
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 19, 2013, 12:18:02 pm

Often we have to tie into the closest breaker panel due to lack of adequate power or no disconnect. We will insert our own set of breakers but often there is no separate ground bar in the panel. Is it "generally" OK to connect the ground wire to the neutral bar?

Thanks

Getting all my electrical questions out of the way today.  :) :

If there is no ground buss, examine the neutral buss to see if other grounds are connected there. If so, I would use it but would also check to see if there is a neutral feeder and a heavy ground connected.


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Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on September 19, 2013, 12:42:23 pm
Often we have to tie into the closest breaker panel due to lack of adequate power or no disconnect. We will insert our own set of breakers but often there is no separate ground bar in the panel. Is it "generally" OK to connect the ground wire to the neutral bar?

Thanks

Getting all my electrical questions out of the way today.  :) :
Ask the licensed electrician doing the electrical tie-in for you.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jamin Lynch on September 19, 2013, 12:45:37 pm
Ask the licensed electrician doing the electrical tie-in for you.

There is never an electrician on site. This usually comes up at clubs therefore we have to do the tie in ourselves.

Plus I don't trust some of these local "home boys" that call themselves electricians.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jay Barracato on September 19, 2013, 12:47:46 pm
There is never an electrician on site. This usually comes up at clubs therefore we have to do the tie in ourselves.

This whole thing demonstrates the problem with adding on to someone elses property.

Is the panel a main panel or a sub panel?

Where are the other grounds landing in the panel?
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jamin Lynch on September 19, 2013, 12:51:50 pm
This whole thing demonstrates the problem with adding on to someone elses property.

Is the panel a main panel or a sub panel?

Where are the other grounds landing in the panel?

It varies. No 2 clubs are the same. Sometimes the main panel sometimes a sub panel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe a sub panel requires a ground bar...but that doesn't mean there is one.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on September 19, 2013, 12:56:46 pm
There is never an electrician on site. This usually comes up at clubs therefore we have to do the tie in ourselves.

Plus I don't trust some of these local "home boys" that call themselves electricians.
Nonetheless, you are not legally qualified to do what you are doing.  By touching anything other than a cord-and-plug system, you are opening yourself up to the whole liability of the building's electrical system.  If anything bad happens, you will be sued and you will be blamed - even if the fault, fire, or injury happened due to some other pre-existing condition.

The right answer is to work with the venue to install receptacles adequate to your power needs before you get there, or reduce your show's demans to meet the available power.  It should not cost very much to add a receptacle near the panel if there are free breaker slots, or rent a generator.

This isn't 1975 anymore.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jamin Lynch on September 19, 2013, 01:11:16 pm
Nonetheless, you are not legally qualified to do what you are doing.  By touching anything other than a cord-and-plug system, you are opening yourself up to the whole liability of the building's electrical system.  If anything bad happens, you will be sued and you will be blamed - even if the fault, fire, or injury happened due to some other pre-existing condition.

The right answer is to work with the venue to install receptacles adequate to your power needs before you get there, or reduce your show's demans to meet the available power.  It should not cost very much to add a receptacle near the panel if there are free breaker slots, or rent a generator.

This isn't 1975 anymore.

And I'm sure I'll get sued when somebody trips over the extension cords I'll have to run all over the place.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on September 19, 2013, 01:23:20 pm
And I'm sure I'll get sued when somebody trips over the extension cords I'll have to run all over the place.
Your liability insurance should cover that part of it.  Your liability insurance is less likely to cover your doing illegal electrical work and death or fire potentially resulting from that.

It's up to you to do whatever you decide is worth the risk, but we can't on a public forum condone what you're doing, no matter how many times you've done it before without apparent issue.

Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jay Barracato on September 19, 2013, 01:32:05 pm
And I'm sure I'll get sued when somebody trips over the extension cords I'll have to run all over the place.

IF (and that is a mighty big IF) I were actually persuaded to pull the front off of a panel and I didn't immediately recognize how it was wired OR the way it was wired didn't follow standard practices, I am not going to make any changes.

Your basically asking how to fix a f@$#ed up situation.

If someone used the wrong type of panel and instead of a ground bar has 14 grounds twisted together and shoved in the corner of the box, do you really want to be relying on that for your safety? Tying in the neutral and ground at a subpanel is just asking for a potential difference on your ground. That will cause its own bunch of problems.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Steve M Smith on September 19, 2013, 01:34:25 pm
we can't on a public forum condone what you're doing, no matter how many times you've done it before without apparent issue.

And no matter how many time we have done it ourselves!


Steve.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Mike Sokol on September 19, 2013, 01:59:13 pm
And no matter how many time we have done it ourselves!

Steve.

Everybody chill out a bit. Yes, I also did crazy power connections in the 70's, but I actually went and got my Master's Electricians License in 1978 just so I could flash my card and have access to the power panels. And nowadays liability issues are much greater. If  you can talk the club into installing a simple 50-amp/240-volt 4-wire stove outlet near the panel, you should be able to run most anything you could want from your own distro. And yes, go ahead and meter anything an electrician installs for you, especially in older converted industrial building with 3-phase power. There's something called High-leg delta wiring which is VERY dangerous to connect into. Here's a primer which we can discuss later: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-leg_delta

As far as looking inside a service panel for a separate or combined Ground-Neutral bus bar, I'm going to say that's beyond the scope of this forum for now. The real problem isn't showing you how everything is SUPPOSED to be wired, but rather how it's ACTUALLY wired. The wiring code has changed a lot over the years, especially in building constructed pre-1970s. So much so that even with my 40-years experience in electrical power I'm sometimes confused trying to figure out exactly what some electrician did to the wiring 30 years ago that could cause a problem today.

At some point I'm going to write an article about panel and sub-panel grounding vs. bonding that should help you all understand this better. But in the meantime, don't tie into any panels unless you're licensed to do so, and let's stay safe out there.... 
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jamin Lynch on September 19, 2013, 01:59:26 pm
And no matter how many time we have done it ourselves!


Steve.

Whoa! Let's back up. I'm not asking anybody to condone or approve of anything.

Of coarse if a breaker panel looks unsafe, I'll not mess with it. If I burn the place down, I loose my equipment along with it. Everybody looses.

I'm merely asking when inserting my own set of breakers into a panel to connect a distro, is it generally OK to attach the ground wire to the neutral bar when connecting the distro to a main panel? I believe the ground bar and neutral bar are usually bonded together. If it's a sub panel it will most likely have a ground bar and I assume attaching the neutral wire to the neutral bar and the ground wire to the ground bar is probably correct. If there is no ground bar in a sub panel then what would be best practice? Is there something other than "don't use it" that would be a safe option?
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Steve M Smith on September 19, 2013, 03:32:04 pm
I wasn't suggesting we condone anything but I'm sure many of us have done things like this which we shouldn't have done.


Steve.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Greg_Cameron on September 19, 2013, 03:50:19 pm
I'm merely asking when inserting my own set of breakers into a panel to connect a distro, is it generally OK to attach the ground wire to the neutral bar when connecting the distro to a main panel? I believe the ground bar and neutral bar are usually bonded together. If it's a sub panel it will most likely have a ground bar and I assume attaching the neutral wire to the neutral bar and the ground wire to the ground bar is probably correct. If there is no ground bar in a sub panel then what would be best practice? Is there something other than "don't use it" that would be a safe option?

Current code stipulates that the neutral bus and ground bus are one in the same at a service entrance or separately derived service since they are bonded. All sub panels downstream from the service entrance are to have neutral and ground un-bonded on separate buses. That topology has been in the NEC since right before the 70s I believe. Any electrical installations prior to that are a crap shoot. Technically, if a sub-panel to be tie into by qualified personnel doesn't have the neutral and ground buses separate, feeder should be run to one that's wired correctly or all the way back to the service entrance if need be to ensure a distro is compliant. Plenty of feeder should be kept on hand for such occasions.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on September 19, 2013, 04:15:30 pm
Please review this white paper by Middle Atlantic. It should answer many questions.

http://www.middleatlantic.com/pdf/PowerPaper.pdf
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Mike Sokol on September 19, 2013, 04:55:00 pm
Please review this white paper by Middle Atlantic. It should answer many questions.

http://www.middleatlantic.com/pdf/PowerPaper.pdf

That's a great paper. Thanks for posting it, Jonathan...
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Steve M Smith on September 19, 2013, 05:17:19 pm
Can someone explain the isolated ground to me?  I don't see why or how it's any different to a normal ground.


Steve.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on September 19, 2013, 05:36:11 pm
Can someone explain the isolated ground to me?  I don't see why or how it's any different to a normal ground.


Steve.

The standard ground may be subject to ground currents due to different voltage potentials on grounded components -- including structural components such as beams & studs, or piping systems such as gas and water -- throughout the premises. This ground current can induce noise in electronic components connected to this grounding system. Consider that the standard ground may have several connection points throughout the system. The further apart the components, the greater the likelihood of ground currents.

The isolated ground is a single-point ground (hub-and-spoke configuration). As the Middle Atlantic white paper I linked to earlier shows, all grounding of audio components -- including the rack -- is only through the isolated ground back to the panel. The rack is electrically insulated from structural components of the building (and if it cannot be, the components must be insulated from the rack). Ideally, the chassis ground of all audio components would be connected through a single, common isolated grounding conductor. When you have audio components (racks) in different parts of the premises, they may be powered by different conduits, thereby providing different isolated ground conductors to the different racks. In this case, it would be ideal to have the shield of balanced signal lines between the racks connected at one end only, to further prevent ground loops. Even though both racks' isolated grounds terminate at a common point (the subpanel or the main panel), there is still potential for ground loop current (if signal lines are grounded at both ends). There's even potential for ground loop current between two components installed adjacent in the same rack, connected to the same power supply, and connected with a signal line grounded at both ends. However, the minimized physical distance reduces that potential to immeasurable levels.

(In all matter, there is always voltage and there is always current. The question isn't how to eliminate it, but rather how to minimize its effect.)
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Mike Sokol on September 19, 2013, 06:44:51 pm
The standard ground may be subject to ground currents due to different voltage potentials on grounded components -- including structural components such as beams & studs, or piping systems such as gas and water -- throughout the premises. This ground current can induce noise in electronic components connected to this grounding system. Consider that the standard ground may have several connection points throughout the system. The further apart the components, the greater the likelihood of ground currents.

I once measured the "ground" voltage between two sides of a large warehouse (1,000,000 square feet or so) and found there was a 5 volt difference, even with all those I-beams interconnecting everything. The currents involved must have been HUGE, but was never noticed plugging in single piece of gear. The problem reared it's head when we ran CCTV coax from the railroad dock to the guard shack some 500 ft apart. Of course, we grounded both the cameras and the video monitors at each outlet, but soon found the image unusable from all the hum bars in the video. Some research and a few video baluns allowed us to terminate the coax shield on just one end, and the hum bars went away.

My current research in ground loop hum finds that a standard 100 ft run of XLR cable will pass about 1 amp of current for every 1 volt of ground differential (yup, that about 1 ohm). And many pieces of sound gear will generate significant hum with less than 100 mA of ground loop current (the pin-1 problem). It's not high order math to see that even 1 volt of difference between outlet grounds will make a lot of gear hum like crazy.

When I see conduit being used as the safety ground in a building I know there's going to be trouble since by definition it will be bonded to building steel. Plus another issue I see a lot is the sub-panel itself bolted to the building steel. That's also a guarantee of ground loop trouble down the road.

One really easy way to determine in advance if you're going to have audio ground loop issues is the simply run a 100 ft (or longer) extension cord from the far outlet close to the one you're testing. Then poke a voltmeter between the safety ground in your "local" outlet and the safety ground in the extension cord coming from the "remote" outlet. It should measure very close to zero volts, maybe 1/10th of a volt max. If you're measuring any significant voltage, then your safety ground is probably double bonded to building steel somewhere.

Now, load the local outlet with something that draws maybe 8 or 10 amps of current. A small space heater or PAR light is good. You should NOT see the voltage measurement between the remote and local grounds change at all. If it goes up at all, could be 1 to 5 volts at times) then you know that the safety ground bus and and neutral bus have been double bonded somewhere, usually in a sub panel.  As mentioned earlier, that's not to code in post 1970's buildings.

Of course, you're not going to do this for a one-off gig, so for those cases I carry an array of audio isolation transformers and DI boxes with ground lift switches. If you do have your own studio or live stage in need of proper power, then getting a good electrician to help you sort out the grounds can be a big help.

So, what makes an isolated ground reduce hum is a single point ground with a lack of contamination from other ground and neutral wires feeding it. By itself, that Orange outlet does nothing to isolate you from anything except the box it's mounted in.

Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on September 19, 2013, 08:44:24 pm
i am a commercial journeyman electrician. yes you connect the ground to the neutral bus "IF" theres no other ground buss. the neutral is always connected at the service via the "neutral bonding jumper" aka "neutral disconnect" jumper which is either a lenght of wire or a short piece of buss bar.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on September 20, 2013, 01:23:31 am
I once measured the "ground" voltage between two sides of a large warehouse (1,000,000 square feet or so) and found there was a 5 volt difference, even with all those I-beams interconnecting everything. The currents involved must have been HUGE, but was never noticed plugging in single piece of gear.

Consider all the environmental sources of electromagnetic radiation. Just the sun beating down on a metal building represents an enormous amount of energy. Then you have the magnetism of the earth itself. (From this perspective, man-made EMF is miniscule.) This EMF energy can be demodulated by the steel in the building, resulting in the voltages you see. And yes, considering how low the resistance between two points in that warehouse must be, that does represent a huge amount of current, possibly hundreds of amps.

But if you look at the cross-sectional area of conductor involved (that is, the steel of the building), it's also huge. But if you take a fraction of that area -- say, the area of an 18 AWG wire -- the current flowing through that fractional area is also fractional and may only be a few milliamps or less.

That doesn't mean you won't have problems (as Mike found out).
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jim McKeveny on October 21, 2013, 09:07:46 am
There are some judgments to be made here:

Is the box itself metallic and connected via grounded conduit? Ground to the conduit. The box-to-conduit connection may not be reliable.

If the panel cover is missing, the other breakers are different brands and ages, and the neutral bar looks loose, and half the neutral bar locations are stripped, and the main lugs look like a screwdriver was used instead of the proper Allen Key...RUN AWAY!



Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jeff Bankston on October 21, 2013, 04:16:15 pm
There are some judgments to be made here:

Is the box itself metallic and connected via grounded conduit? Ground to the conduit. The box-to-conduit connection may not be reliable.

If the panel cover is missing, there other breakers are different brands and ages, and the neutral bar looks loose, and half the neutral bar locations are stripped or, and the main lugs look like a screwdriver was used instead of the proper Allen Key...RUN AWAY!
+ ! run away run away !
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on October 21, 2013, 05:00:12 pm
Is the box itself metallic and connected via grounded conduit? Ground to the conduit. The box-to-conduit connection may not be reliable.
What about the box-to-conduit at the next box up the line... or the one at the service panel? There are many potential points of failure. I've had to tighten conduit locknuts to get a good ground.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: duane massey on October 22, 2013, 12:52:31 am
I have come across many, many non-compliant electrical systems down here in Texas. Heck, you get out into the rural areas where there IS no electrical inspector or code and you can find all sorts of interesting (and dangerous) things. It is quite common to find romex run throughout a building with no grounds connected at the outlets, or #14-2 romex tied to a 30a breaker. Back in "the day" when our band played these halls out in the sticks we carried a box with every brand of breaker just to be able to perform, which was still better than some of the other acts who used big alligator clips to go straight to the rails.
I'm very, very glad those days are long gone.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Tommy Peel on October 22, 2013, 01:21:27 am
I have come across many, many non-compliant electrical systems down here in Texas. Heck, you get out into the rural areas where there IS no electrical inspector or code and you can find all sorts of interesting (and dangerous) things.

+1  Rural areas can get really interesting really fast...

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Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Tom Bourke on October 22, 2013, 03:02:12 am
+1  Rural areas can get really interesting really fast...

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
I think that is part of the divide on this discussion.  It is easy to just get a licensed electrician when your in a decent sized metropolitan area.  When your an hour from the nearest thing resembling a town there are no electricians.  The rules start to become more of a political/popularity contest.  One of the most dangerous situations I ever saw was a county maintenance guy who threw his weight around and got bonus pay to do a "tie in." When I arrived I found an open door to a room with some soow 6-3 laying on the ground.  One end was running in the panel to a 50A breaker that was ON.  The other end was open ends, laying on a wet cement floor inches from a copper water pipe feeding 2 public bathrooms.  WTF!!!

I have also run into my share of licensed electricians who did not know shit about electricity, history of power distribution, and other knowledge needed to make safe and clean power available.  I was talking to one of the supervising electricians for a theatre upgrade I was involved with about older 3 phase systems.  He said most of the young electricians under him knew nothing about the old or odd 3 phase systems.

I think it is important that we, as production professionals, at least learn to recognize the various power configurations and potential safety failure points.  We may not be certified or hold the licence to "fix" the problems.  However it is our responsibility to recognize and be able to articulate to others what problems we find.

Terms like qualified, competent, certified, and licensed have very specific meanings when dealing with NEC, OSHA, insurance, and other legal situations. https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10618

We should, at a minimum, strive to meet the definitions of qualified and competent.  This means getting training and experience.  We also have to understand our local laws.  Where I use to live I could do any electrical work I wanted to my house, including the main feeder and meter base, as long as I had a permit and it was inspected.  In the next town over I could not even replace an outlet.  Where I live now I am not allowed to install low voltage signal lines with out a licence.  However, I can legally do a tie in to a 120/208 400A disconnect with out a licence, if the venue allows.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jamin Lynch on October 25, 2013, 11:19:05 am
I think that is part of the divide on this discussion.  It is easy to just get a licensed electrician when your in a decent sized metropolitan area.  When your an hour from the nearest thing resembling a town there are no electricians.  The rules start to become more of a political/popularity contest.  One of the most dangerous situations I ever saw was a county maintenance guy who threw his weight around and got bonus pay to do a "tie in." When I arrived I found an open door to a room with some soow 6-3 laying on the ground.  One end was running in the panel to a 50A breaker that was ON.  The other end was open ends, laying on a wet cement floor inches from a copper water pipe feeding 2 public bathrooms.  WTF!!!

I have also run into my share of licensed electricians who did not know shit about electricity, history of power distribution, and other knowledge needed to make safe and clean power available.  I was talking to one of the supervising electricians for a theatre upgrade I was involved with about older 3 phase systems.  He said most of the young electricians under him knew nothing about the old or odd 3 phase systems.

I think it is important that we, as production professionals, at least learn to recognize the various power configurations and potential safety failure points.  We may not be certified or hold the licence to "fix" the problems.  However it is our responsibility to recognize and be able to articulate to others what problems we find.

Terms like qualified, competent, certified, and licensed have very specific meanings when dealing with NEC, OSHA, insurance, and other legal situations. https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10618

We should, at a minimum, strive to meet the definitions of qualified and competent.  This means getting training and experience.  We also have to understand our local laws.  Where I use to live I could do any electrical work I wanted to my house, including the main feeder and meter base, as long as I had a permit and it was inspected.  In the next town over I could not even replace an outlet.  Where I live now I am not allowed to install low voltage signal lines with out a licence.  However, I can legally do a tie in to a 120/208 400A disconnect with out a licence, if the venue allows.

You hit the nail on the head!

Down here in South Texas we have a lot of "out in the middle of nowhere" gigs. Getting an electrician out to fix a problem a couple of hours before show time just isn't going to happen. And walking away isn't the other option.  So we have to do what we can.

Just a week ago I was hired to do provide sound and lights for a small gig. I took everyone's advice and drove to the location...twice...to discuss power requirements and check out the venue. I specifically went over exactly what was required. The promoter said,"I'll have an electrician out here to hook up the proper power." When I showed up there was a generator, OK no problem I'll just use that. Well there was no cable or spider box and only 2 circuits on the generator. So what should I have done in this case? Oh, PS,  It's a one hour round trip drive.

Just because you go out to the location and specify exactly what you need doesn't mean you' re going to get it. So if I walk away, that's 2 in one month that I'm told I should walk away from. Can't afford to do that.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 25, 2013, 11:36:09 am
You hit the nail on the head!

Down here in South Texas we have a lot of "out in the middle of nowhere" gigs. Getting an electrician out to fix a problem a couple of hours before show time just isn't going to happen. And walking away isn't the other option.  So we have to do what we can.

Just a week ago I was hired to do provide sound and lights for a small gig. I took everyone's advice and drove to the location...twice...to discuss power requirements and check out the venue. I specifically went over exactly what was required. The promoter said,"I'll have an electrician out here to hook up the proper power." When I showed up there was a generator, OK no problem I'll just use that. Well there was no cable or spider box and only 2 circuits on the generator. So what should I have done in this case?

Just because you go out to the location and specify exactly what you need doesn't mean you' re going to get it. So if I walk away, that's 2 in one month that I'm told I should walk away from. Can't afford to do that.

You go to the artist and say "The promoter wants me to use inadequate and potentially unsafe electrical service.  As the promoter is my client I will do whatever he wants me to do in whatever manner is possible.  I'm telling you this as a courtesy and to give you an opportunity to get the promoter do this in a safe manner."

If anything bad happens, you're already on the hook for knowing better but not insisting on a dangerous situation being corrected, so you might as well tell the band you don't mind subjecting them to electrocution because the promoter is a cheap-skate asshole that doesn't give a damn about the safety of the band, your crew/system, and potentially the safety of the public as well.  These fuckers should be taken out and shot.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jamin Lynch on October 25, 2013, 11:43:24 am
You go to the artist and say "The promoter wants me to use inadequate and potentially unsafe electrical service.  As the promoter is my client I will do whatever he wants me to do in whatever manner is possible.  I'm telling you this as a courtesy and to give you an opportunity to get the promoter do this in a safe manner."

If anything bad happens, you're already on the hook for knowing better but not insisting on a dangerous situation being corrected, so you might as well tell the band you don't mind subjecting them to electrocution because the promoter is a cheap-skate asshole that doesn't give a damn about the safety of the band, your crew/system, and potentially the safety of the public as well.  These fuckers should be taken out and shot.

Nope, everything was safe.

My point is that I wasted over 2 hours of driving time going out to the location. I should have just showed up the day of the show and dealt with whatever they give me.

I'm asking, "what would you do?"
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 25, 2013, 11:57:55 am
Nope, everything was safe.

My point is that I wasted over 2 hours of driving time going out to the location. I should have just showed up the day of the show and dealt with whatever they give me.

I'm asking, "what would you do?"

Well, we carry distros, feeder, and a tool box.  If shit is dodgy we go to the artist's representative.  OUR side of things is up to Code and always will be.

We advance every show with artist TD/PM/FOH/Squint, and then get with the promoter and/or venue if we've never been there before.  If it's at all possible, we physically visit the venue.  If it's an empty field, we'll probably skip the site visit (but we've been bit by steep terrain that wasn't obvious in pictures sent by the client).

Ultimately we do what we can to have safe setups that minimize the risks for everyone involved.  Sometimes that costs us time & money and sometimes that saves our ass.  You decide what is best for your firm.
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Jamin Lynch on October 25, 2013, 12:06:24 pm
Well, we carry distros, feeder, and a tool box.  If shit is dodgy we go to the artist's representative.  OUR side of things is up to Code and always will be.

We advance every show with artist TD/PM/FOH/Squint, and then get with the promoter and/or venue if we've never been there before.  If it's at all possible, we physically visit the venue.  If it's an empty field, we'll probably skip the site visit (but we've been bit by steep terrain that wasn't obvious in pictures sent by the client).

Ultimately we do what we can to have safe setups that minimize the risks for everyone involved.  Sometimes that costs us time & money and sometimes that saves our ass.  You decide what is best for your firm.


It's pretty rare that I ever need a distro, especially for smaller shows. So I don't carry one with me all the time...maybe I should. But when I drive out there twice and assured everything will be in place, I ASSume it will be done.

I could have done the old "it's not my problem thing" or the "git' r done" thing. I chose git'r done. We drove back into town, picked up a cable (with California plugs) and a spider box drove back out and went on as scheduled.

I took the advice of all those who jumped my shit a while back...didn''t work out so good. So I'll just continue with what I've been doing for the past 30+ years.
 
Title: Re: Grounding to the neutral bar?
Post by: Rob Spence on October 25, 2013, 01:26:06 pm

It's pretty rare that I ever need a distro, especially for smaller shows. So I don't carry one with me all the time...maybe I should. But when I drive out there twice and assured everything will be in place, I ASSume it will be done.

I could have done the old "it's not my problem thing" or the "git' r done" thing. I chose git'r done. We drove back into town, picked up a cable (with California plugs) and a spider box drove back out and went on as scheduled.

I took the advice of all those who jumped my shit a while back...didn''t work out so good. So I'll just continue with what I've been doing for the past 30+ years.

Actually, it seems to have worked out quite well.

Since I always ask for a 50a 240v connector for my A rig, I carry my distro, feeder, and a Cali to range plug adapter. Doesn't matter to me if I get a hard wired connection or a generator. I can hook to either?

Just curious, what power did you ask for, and what did the promoter agree to?



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