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Title: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Dave Bednarski on August 24, 2013, 05:25:59 pm
This is happening as I type...

Goto power up... the eithernet blinks... and the lights along the screen.  That's it.

Got quick video clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LGOPPXvWWU

Scrambled to get re patched to small backup board... very pissed off band.

Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Jamin Lynch on August 24, 2013, 05:45:28 pm
This is happening as I type...

Goto power up... the eithernet blinks... and the lights along the screen.  That's it.

Got quick video clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LGOPPXvWWU

Scrambled to get re patched to small backup board... very pissed off band.

So far I've seen 4 different x32's come into my area from various out of town bands, and all had some kind of problem
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 24, 2013, 06:18:38 pm
This is happening as I type...

Goto power up... the eithernet blinks... and the lights along the screen.  That's it.

Got quick video clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LGOPPXvWWU

Scrambled to get re patched to small backup board... very pissed off band.
That is one of the biggest issues I see with digital consoles.  Nothing you can do when they don't boot up.

The only thing to do is to swap out consoles.  And if you are using a digital snake-and don't have the same type of console-it gets even worse.

At least with analog-(short of a power supply failure) there is usually all sorts of "work arounds" like using a post aux for the main outputs-patching around bad channels and so forth.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 24, 2013, 06:44:23 pm
This is happening as I type...

Goto power up... the eithernet blinks... and the lights along the screen.  That's it.

Got quick video clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LGOPPXvWWU

Scrambled to get re patched to small backup board... very pissed off band.

Dave...

What was the power situation?  Do you run any line voltage regulation, either stand-alone or in an on-line UPS?

Did you meter the venue power?  Were you sharing power with the caterer/lighting?

This is an important question.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 24, 2013, 06:50:34 pm
That is one of the biggest issues I see with digital consoles.  Nothing you can do when they don't boot up.

The only thing to do is to swap out consoles.  And if you are using a digital snake-and don't have the same type of console-it gets even worse.

At least with analog-(short of a power supply failure) there is usually all sorts of "work arounds" like using a post aux for the main outputs-patching around bad channels and so forth.

And for all the reasons you stated Ivan I'll keep my Pro House Rack to back up my Expression. That may be redundant though as the only real problems I've heard of with the Expression series have to do with the firmware level, and once that's been brought up to V1.09 it doesn't appear that there are any problems with the board or stage box's being reported. There IS a reason for purchasing a trusted name product. I also expect the QU-16 to be as reliable after it's initial launch and firmware updates to resolve minor issues, based on  the A&H reputation for good solid products.
 
Now that I am seeing more and more X32 issues of the type Dave is reporting I'll have to wonder if Behringer QA is now doing more than a power on test to 1 of 10. 1 of 100, or 1 of 1000 boards leaving China.
 
OP, That sucks that the board died, but I'm sure that Uli and crew will chime in shortly with a solution. Hopefully it's some random loose cable that's causing the problem and you won't have to send the unit to Las Vegas.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 24, 2013, 08:01:32 pm

And for all the reasons you stated Ivan I'll keep my Pro House Rack to back up my Expression. That may be redundant though as the only real problems I've heard of with the Expression series have to do with the firmware level, and once that's been brought up to V1.09 it doesn't appear that there are any problems with the board or stage box's being reported. There IS a reason for purchasing a trusted name product. I also expect the QU-16 to be as reliable after it's initial launch and firmware updates to resolve minor issues, based on  the A&H reputation for good solid products.
 
Now that I am seeing more and more X32 issues of the type Dave is reporting I'll have to wonder if Behringer QA is now doing more than a power on test to 1 of 10. 1 of 100, or 1 of 1000 boards leaving China.
 
OP, That sucks that the board died, but I'm sure that Uli and crew will chime in shortly with a solution. Hopefully it's some random loose cable that's causing the problem and you won't have to send the unit to Las Vegas.
It is not just a Behringer issue.  Years ago there was a digital console (around $70K) that their big selling point was that they simply DON'T fail. 

Well the first one we sold did fail-as in got locked up during turn on-on a Sunday Morning before service.  THe customer ended up putting a cheap yamaha analog console in and did the service.

But when the replacement for the replacement of the replacement failed-weeeeeeellllll at that point I started to doubt the marketing about "not failing".

They are no longer much a player (as far as I know) in the US.  Don't know about the rest of the world.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 24, 2013, 08:05:20 pm
Dave...

What was the power situation?  Do you run any line voltage regulation, either stand-alone or in an on-line UPS?

Did you meter the venue power?  Were you sharing power with the caterer/lighting?

This is an important question.
Dick,

I know where you are going with this.  I saw this on a PRX speaker a couple of weeks ago.  Bad power at the venue caused it.

I have looked into a voltage conditioner for this very reason, but they are not cheep.  What are your thoughts on these for digital mixers.  Would it help avoid issues associated with unstable power, or low voltage due to poorly managed power runs?

I have the belief (no evidence to support it) that analog mixers are more tolerant to power fluctuation and variation.

To the OP.  That really stinks.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 24, 2013, 09:02:25 pm
Dick,

I know where you are going with this.  I saw this on a PRX speaker a couple of weeks ago.  Bad power at the venue caused it.

I have looked into a voltage conditioner for this very reason, but they are not cheep.  What are your thoughts on these for digital mixers.  Would it help avoid issues associated with unstable power, or low voltage due to poorly managed power runs?

I have the belief (no evidence to support it) that analog mixers are more tolerant to power fluctuation and variation.

To the OP.  That really stinks.
It is amazing to me how often the "power" is blame for something that does not work-or hums- or just acts weird.

Yet I have never seen ANY (not saying there is none-I just don't remember seeing any) proof of "bad" power.

It is real easy to blame something you can't prove.

It is funny how everything else works just fine-but when one piece of gear "goes crazy" the power gets blamed.

Well what about all the rest of the gear?

That being said, I believe it is a good idea to use a UPS on a digital console.  If for no other reason-dips in the mains voltage.  Dips in voltage on an analog console will usually just result in a hum (voltage regulators not having enough input voltage), but in a digital console all sorts of other issues can result.

One I remember (that took me a while to find out) was the older Yamaha 01V in which a dip (even just a slight dip for a very short period of them) would cause a check sum error to come up the next time it was turned on.

Nothing happened as long as power was applied-just the NEXT time.

To an "unknowing" user-it is real easy to completely erase ALL the memory-with no way to get it back.

Yet the actual problem/damage may have happened days before.

But these was a way to "clear it" (using another console)-so no physical or electrical damage.

Just sayin'-------------------------------
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve Alves on August 24, 2013, 10:58:22 pm
I am probably going to get flamed for this.... But..... You get what you pay for.

Before the 32 came out I don't think anyone would believe you could get that many features for that price point...

My mechanic has a sign in his shop..

You can have it quick.
You can have it cheap.
You can have quality.

Pick any two...

Although this may be a bit different... You get features and price point, just maybe not quality.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Job
Post by: Russ Davis on August 25, 2013, 12:38:07 am
Quote from: Ivan Beaver
It is not just a Behringer issue.  Years ago there was a digital console (around $70K) that their big selling point was that they simply DON'T fail. 

True, but...

Quote from: Steve Alves
You can have it quick.
You can have it cheap.
You can have quality.

Pick any two...

Is the X32 still a bargain if you have to buy two of them for redundancy?  Misguided or not, some clients are insisting on digital these days and may take umbrage if you pull out an analog spare, regardless of quality.  Again, they may be misguided and should be happy that the show goes on, but (right or wrong) they ARE the client.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve M Smith on August 25, 2013, 03:03:04 am
It is amazing to me how often the "power" is blame for something that does not work-or hums- or just acts weird....

It is funny how everything else works just fine-but when one piece of gear "goes crazy" the power gets blamed.


Agreed.  Anything like this which converts mains power to dc internally will be well regulated and smoothed and will be immune to fluctuations of voltage and even small interruptions in the supply.

A UPS is a good idea to prevent the desk having to boot up if the power goes out for more than about 1/8 second but shouldn't be needed to condition the power.


Steve.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Dave Bednarski on August 25, 2013, 07:06:27 am
Update.

I left the unit on in its partially "booted" state.  Aprox 2 hours from initial power up state (during the 1st set), the screen flashed... it booted up normally.  It sat for the rest of the night, everything appearing to work.  Everything recalled?  I ran it through a few paces after the show concluded.  Recycled the power, no issues.

--

Power situation -> No sharing w/ lighting/catering, etc.  Exhibited the same behavior when plugged into two different power sources, directly to wall and through a Monster MP Pro 2500 and the Furman unit. 

Also tried unplugging everything from the X32 (iPod Aux in, eithernet, AES50).

The two S16s, plugged into the same power sources, worked without issue.

--

The unit was purchased in March.  It has seen ~20 jobs, without issue.  It has traveled from day 1, in the Gator X32 case, stored in a climate controlled environment when not in use.

--

We made the best of it.  I got paid.  No clue what the issue could be.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 25, 2013, 08:00:17 am
How much confidence will you have in the board going forward, and are you planning to "send it away" to LV now that the issue has become intermittent and harder to diagnose?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bill Schnake on August 25, 2013, 08:44:44 am
How much confidence will you have in the board going forward, and are you planning to "send it away" to LV now that the issue has become intermittent and harder to diagnose?

I have said this before and I will say it again.  My company has two X32 consoles and we are awaiting two X32 Racks.  To date we have had zero issues with the consoles.  We transport them in Gator G-Tour Cases and they travel between 2,000 and 5,000 miles a month depending on where our shows are and how many we have in a given month.  The weeks of June, July and August have been extremely busy this year.  September will be even bigger.  We have well over 100 shows on the two X32s and are confident that they will continue to work and meet our clients needs. 

This could be a power issue, we always use taps that are regulated, or it could be a bad power supply.  I have had power supplies go bad in Allen & Heath GL3000, and Yamaha PM4000, analog boards in the past.  Things happen in life and they happen at the worst time.  If it were me, I would check the console again in an environment that I trusted the electrical with a UPS, uninterrupted power supply.  If it is still a problem ship it of and and get it fixed at Behringer's expense.  It will come back in great shape.

Bill  8)
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Wagner on August 25, 2013, 09:30:33 am
First off, doesn't anyone meter their power before plugging anything into it?  I know I do - every single time (even in places I've been before).  Also, once you start adding loads to your electrical system "brown outs" are always a possibility.  What I've found is that "bad power" is not very common; however, overloaded power happens often (and it's usually "operator error").  I've "repaired" many house systems by simply redistributing the electrical connections.  Just becuase things are plugged into three different outlets does not mean that they are on different circuits, and just because things meter corrently doesn't mean that the same will be true under load (at least from a voltage perspective).

As for the X32, I've put 10 solid months of heavy usage on mine with zero faults of any kind.  Yes, I trust it.  Yes, I carry a spare.  You carry a spare for that Soundcraft, don't you, Bob?  It probably says ABP on it, too.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Robert Piascik on August 25, 2013, 12:13:04 pm
With approximately 30,000 X-32 in service there are bound to be some failures. Of course you don't hear about the other 29,000+ or so that are working just fine. If that means that Bob Leonard or Steve Alves doesn't trust the board, whatever...

Still can't believe I'm defending Behringer products, but I've been won over by what they're trying to do with their company.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 25, 2013, 12:22:45 pm
Update.

I left the unit on in its partially "booted" state.  Aprox 2 hours from initial power up state (during the 1st set), the screen flashed... it booted up normally.  It sat for the rest of the night, everything appearing to work.  Everything recalled?  I ran it through a few paces after the show concluded.  Recycled the power, no issues.

--

Power situation -> No sharing w/ lighting/catering, etc.  Exhibited the same behavior when plugged into two different power sources, directly to wall and through a Monster MP Pro 2500 and the Furman unit. 


Dave...

Thanks for answering the power questions.  Now I have a power question back at you:

What Furman unit?  I neglected to look back in the thread to see if you named it, but I"m ASSuming (thanks JR, Ivan) that you're referring to mere power strips, not line voltage regulators.  The Monster and Furman (or any other brand) "power conditioners" do nothing to stabilize voltage.  It is my experience that sagging voltage can be a source of failures such as yours.  Of course, it's a complex set of circumstances and arbitrarily narrowing it down to a single cause can be risky, but I would encourage you to start using some kind of voltage regulation AS WELL AS learning how to use a Fluke meter to ascertain the viability of the power wherever you go. 
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 25, 2013, 12:34:05 pm
Dave...



What Furman unit?  I neglected to look back in the thread to see if you named it, but I"m ASSuming (thanks JR, Ivan) that you're referring to mere power strips, not line voltage regulators.  The Monster and Furman (or any other brand) "power conditioners" do nothing to stabilize voltage.  It is my experience that sagging voltage can be a source of failures such as yours. 
Exactly-A lot (dare I say-most) people think that the normal power strips that mount in rack somehow do something "magical" to the AC and "fix" it. NOT!

Yes there are a couple of units out there-but most just have some MOVs that do a little bit to protect against spikes (until they fail and then you don't even know that they have failed------------), but NOTHING to "condition" the power-or regulate it or protect against "brown outs".

But that doesn't stop people from "believing" that they are actually doing something.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 25, 2013, 12:34:34 pm
The Monster and Furman (or any other brand) "power conditioners" do nothing to stabilize voltage.  It is my experience that sagging voltage can be a source of failures such as yours.  Of course, it's a complex set of circumstances and arbitrarily narrowing it down to a single cause can be risky, but I would encourage you to start using some kind of voltage regulation AS WELL AS learning how to use a Fluke meter to ascertain the viability of the power wherever you go.

The X32 will be happy with service voltage from 90v to 240v, 50/60Hz.

However, at a wedding reception I can project a circuit used by the band also powering a food warmer, frozen drink machine, etc.  We don't know if the outlet on the other side of the wall is on the same service as what we're plugged in to....

So I'm very big on UPS that offer automatic voltage regulation and began this back early in my use of Yamaha's small digital mixers (that were service voltage specific).

I'm not ready to say there was voltage drop - in fact I think the problem is in the console power supply based on my observations of *other* electronic devices - but AVR/UPS is a good thing to have regardless.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 25, 2013, 12:36:11 pm
AVR/UPS is a good thing to have regardless.

Can the Church say "AMEN"!!!
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 25, 2013, 12:43:50 pm
Positive anecdotes do not cancel out negative anecdotes, while there should be somewhat lower expectations for lower priced gear.

Stuff happens...  This product has been put under a microscope because of very high expectations.

It has been suggested that digital products fail less gracefully than analog products. All products can have single point failure modes. Mature products in high reliability applications engineer around them as they are understood.

An analog console with bad power may still pass signal but won't sound very good. All products need good power. The digital circuitry inside a digital console is probably running from single digit DC power supply rails. Hard to imagine running out of voltage in even brown out conditions, but budget power supply designs may not be that flexible .

JR
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve Alves on August 25, 2013, 01:22:53 pm
With approximately 30,000 X-32 in service there are bound to be some failures. Of course you don't hear about the other 29,000+ or so that are working just fine. If that means that Bob Leonard or Steve Alves doesn't trust the board, whatever...

Wow, got my name mentioned in the same sentence with Bob. I am truly honored..

However, I did not say I do not trust the board. I just feel you get what you pay for.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 25, 2013, 01:30:30 pm

 I did not say I do not trust the board. I just feel you get what you pay for.

Or the Karmic equivalent:  you pay for what you get.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve Hurt on August 25, 2013, 01:31:26 pm
No amount of people saying "well, my board works fine" will fix a board that is bad.

When something breaks, rather than defending the makers virginity/honor/whatever,..... figure out what is wrong, get it fixed, share w/others what was wrong, learn from it and move on.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on August 25, 2013, 02:02:17 pm
No amount of people saying "well, my board works fine" will fix a board that is bad.

When something breaks, rather than defending the makers virginity/honor/whatever,..... figure out what is wrong, get it fixed, share w/others what was wrong, learn from it and move on.

Come on Steve, that is way too logical. We're here simply to defend our choice in brands with a near religious zeal!

But for real: Interested in how this ends up for the OP.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Wagner on August 25, 2013, 02:48:05 pm
Come on Steve, that is way too logical. We're here simply to defend our choice in brands with a near religious zeal!
I've had an H3000 fail at a gig, too.  Does that mean it's junk?  Not even close.  Things happen at all levels of gear.  The trick is to do everything you can to avoid problems (ie: metering power drops, maintenance, etc) and to be prepared for WHEN something does happen.  Murphy has a cruel sense of humor.
Title: Re: Any console Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 25, 2013, 03:08:44 pm
I've had an H3000 fail at a gig, too.  Does that mean it's junk?  Not even close.  Things happen at all levels of gear.  The trick is to do everything you can to avoid problems (ie: metering power drops, maintenance, etc) and to be prepared for WHEN something does happen.  Murphy has a cruel sense of humor.

IIRC I have had 5 console failures in the past 20 something years. In chronological order they are DDA due to power supply, DDA due to power supply, Soundcraft Europa automation locked up due to dead internal battery, H3000 automation locked up due to condensation, DM2000 due to early power supply that couldn't power all 6 slots. The DM2000 worked fine with only 4 expansion cards.

The DM2k power supply was a known issue (not to me at the time) and was quickly fixed. DDA power supplies never got better in my experience, the H3k was always susceptible to condensation on the automation board that was beneath the VCA fader bay.

Mac
Title: Re: Any console Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 25, 2013, 04:52:42 pm
There are simple (and inexpensive) a/c plug checkers out there.  I used one a few weeks ago to check a guy's home a/c (he was blowing speakers and thought it may be the power).  It was a nice little unit that had a small LCD and could indicate phase switching, safety ground off, ground off, line voltage, and line frequency.  It also had a plug you could put a load on.  I put a 12 amp load on that circuit to see if voltage drop was an issue (was seeing 109 volts at that load).  Frequency was spot on 60Hz.

I would highly recommend this little meter, and wish I could tell you guys the model and make, but I borrowed it from work and don't have it near me.  If anyone is interested I can look it up this week and post it.

I also used a scope to look at the waveform to ensure there wasn't some insane amount of noise on the line ..... not that I would expect this to matter to a power supply in most cases.  The scope wasn't a particularly inexpensive piece of gear though ;)
Title: Re: Any console Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 25, 2013, 05:18:54 pm
I love my X32's I haven't seen many problems with them.  Also I have sold over 50 of them and seen maybe 2 single fader issues and 1 encoder problem.  I would bet that if you could count the shear number of desks in service the failure rate is no greater than any of the Presonus or Soundcraft desks out in the field that have had issues.  I do believe that they should  setup local service center across the globe instead of having to send the desk to Las Vegas.

Just my 2 cents.

Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 25, 2013, 05:51:03 pm
First off, doesn't anyone meter their power before plugging anything into it?  I know I do - every single time (even in places I've been before).  Also, once you start adding loads to your electrical system "brown outs" are always a possibility.  What I've found is that "bad power" is not very common; however, overloaded power happens often (and it's usually "operator error").  I've "repaired" many house systems by simply redistributing the electrical connections.  Just becuase things are plugged into three different outlets does not mean that they are on different circuits, and just because things meter corrently doesn't mean that the same will be true under load (at least from a voltage perspective).

As for the X32, I've put 10 solid months of heavy usage on mine with zero faults of any kind.  Yes, I trust it.  Yes, I carry a spare.  You carry a spare for that Soundcraft, don't you, Bob?  It probably says ABP on it, too.

Scott,
I'm pleased that you have had a good run with your X32's. I'll also say that if the service you provide is as stated on your web site, then you should be very proud of yourself and of your company. I see that you are especially proud of your 18 year 100% on time record, and you should be.
 
Spares for anything are a discussion unto itself so I won't go there for anything more than to say the spares I carry are often dictated by the distance from home base.
 
I'm also going to say that X32 owners tend to spend an inordinate amount of time defending their purchase, and often with exaggerated claims. To me that's neither here nor there. My opinions of the Behringer X32 are simplistic. Huge bang for the buck, people seem to like it, and by most accounts the reliability is pretty good.
 
However, the word reliability opens a door. If I put on the blinders and base my opinion on a single web site, then maybe the board is the second coming. It's when I take of the blinders and research a large number of sites and reports of problems I loose faith in the product. Basically there seems to be some little thing wrong with what is starting to become a larger number of boards in total.
 
I stated prior to this that testing and QA are a significant part of the overall cost of a product. If, remember the word if, Behringer is now sampling a smaller quantity of boards prior to shipment, then more smaller but correctable problems, will be found in new out of the box products. In effect the end user is now becoming the final QA. My other issue is the number of manufactured units. Manufactured units and sold, in use units, are two very different things.
 
My response was for the OP. My question was explicit. How will HE fell now knowing he's had this issue that has not been diagnosed, and what steps will he take to insure the issue is resolved. Personally I would have zero, no, nada, not one bit of confidence in that particular board, and my first step would be to contact Behringer and ask for some attention to the problem or for a replacement board. I didn't trash the board, but once again the Behringerites respond with "isolated case, billions served, more features, blessed by god." It's all bullshit to me, and my only point is this. Uli and his crew have made promises. If my board failed 10 minutes before a gig, then I want those promises kept, and I'll hold your feet to the fire until you keep them.
 
Uli's done a wonderful job of marketing, but one service center in Las Vegas won't turn my head for a second look. Reliability has to be proven, not declared. So, when a year or two passes and reliability has been proven, or disproved, as the case may be I'll do nothing more with a Behringer product other than wish those of you who have them good fortune and the best of luck.
 
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 25, 2013, 06:29:55 pm
Have I mentioned lately how much I dislike defending Behringer. They have sold a sh__ load of these mixer so of course there will be lots of failures.  Some of them not even their fault, that's life in the world of big numbers. Cars break down, computers break down (a lot), digital consoles break down too.
=====
Not to give my full lecture about managing manufacturing processes but testing is not a major cost, building stuff wrong is the larger cost problem. SPC (statistical process control) is about testing samples not for good/bad pass-fail, but to confirm a process is running in the middle of the good range and tweak it to stay dead center of that range. If you are always running in the center of the good range, you do not experience out of range rejects.

This is a simplification and not every process is amenable to SPC, but we should not think in terms of archaic hand assembled process management where 100% barrier testing was the norm, when talking about modern machine processes.

That said it is a value product so not over-engineered for robustness. It is cheap enough that a backup is not that painful... kind of like running your power amps at 8 ohms so you can double up speaker loads if one breaks, using two X32s together means one will probably still work so you can finish the show, should the inevitable failure happen to you.

I am not advocating Behringer over any other solution, but it is what it is. Serviceable if employed wisely. All equipment is subject to failure.

JR

PS I am familiar with lots of failures, it follows naturally from lots of sales.  I see no evidence yet that the failures are disproportionate wrt sales, and of course this story is still being written. It takes time to determine if a product is reliable over time. We'll see.   
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: eric lenasbunt on August 25, 2013, 07:48:36 pm
The bottom line is that many of us cannot trust a brand that proved unreliable on so many prior products.

The reason I cannot buy an X32:
If it fails on a gig like this one does I hear "you should have known better then to bring that _____"

If I bring a Soundcraft or A&H or similar and it fails I hear "wow, weird, must be a power issue" (catch all excuse)

Much like the production company itself, reputation is key. If I bring brands with a reputation for failure people question my rep. Perception is reality and my reality still tells me to stay far away.

I don't care if 100,000 units work if mine is the one with a problem and my show is on the line.

/soapbox somewhat off topic rant
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Chuck Simon on August 25, 2013, 08:31:06 pm
The bottom line is that many of us cannot trust a brand that proved unreliable on so many prior products.

The reason I cannot buy an X32:
If it fails on a gig like this one does I hear "you should have known better then to bring that _____"

If I bring a Soundcraft or A&H or similar and it fails I hear "wow, weird, must be a power issue" (catch all excuse)

Much like the production company itself, reputation is key. If I bring brands with a reputation for failure people question my rep. Perception is reality and my reality still tells me to stay far away.

I don't care if 100,000 units work if mine is the one with a problem and my show is on the line.

/soapbox somewhat off topic rant

If Berhinger made the best digital board in the world, I'm afraid I would have to settle for the second best.  I think I would still get by. ;)
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 25, 2013, 09:15:45 pm
I have read every X32 thread I could find for the last 6 months (including the monster thread at SF).

I see no huge failure rate issue based on the number of people posting good experiences about the product, and the number of people posting issues about the product.

In fact, compared to other digital mixers, I see less about the X32.

The X32 is NOT a MIDAS replacement board.  According to Behringer, the design testing for the X32 faders is 300,000 cycles while that of the MIDAS is 1,000,000.  If cost isn't an issue, you can engineer a motorized fader that will essentially last forever, but lets be serious.  Cost is always an issue.

As for SPC, It is my understanding (from discussions with Uli) that Behringer automatically tests each X32 and utilizes parametric information to optimize process control in their factory (which by the way is my area of expertise).

I have often had to explain to people that SPC can not catch everything.  Connectors that are seated improperly, but seated none the less, will give you a perfect pass at the end of assembly.  In fact, it is very likely that the board will work quite some time before something jiggles the connector loose.

Power supplies also have these kinds of issues.  Just because it worked when you tested it, doesn't mean it wont have infant failure later.

It is also my understanding that Behringer is now doing soak testing on every unit before shipping.  This should also reduce the infant failure rate of the electronic components.

I heard one recommendation that having a 2nd X32 for a backup would be in order to prevent this problem.  At $6K, the two X32's are still HALF the list price of of an LS9-32.

Of course, if you want to compare it to the Soundcraft Expression Si at $3500.00, things get a little more grey.

My personal thoughts are that Behringer has earned their current reputation with many seasoned sound guys.  I believe that they have a great product with the X32 line of mixers, but that it is going to take lots of time to clear up decades of screwing up.  This is clear from people like Bob who did tons of research into digital mixers, then decided to go with a Soundcraft board that .... at the time he was just ordering his, was having all kinds of issues with the early firmware.  Despite the bunch of people who reported issues, he trusted the Soundcraft name enough to get one anyway.  Now, he turned out to be right (so far).  From what I have seen, the 1.09 firmware has been quite solid, but my point still holds.

People will give a company like Soundcraft the benefit of the doubt.  Behringer gets no such slack ..... because frankly, they haven't had time to deserve it ...... yet.

I have heard quite a few people who (like myself and many others) have had inexpensive Behringer gear break in the past, but based on the many great reviews of the X32 have purchased one.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I wish Behringer all the luck in the world.  Does anyone here think we would have 16 channel Soundcraft and A&H digital mixers in the $2500 price range if it were not for the Behringer X32?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: eric lenasbunt on August 25, 2013, 09:16:23 pm
With approximately 30,000 X-32 in service there are bound to be some failures. Of course you don't hear about the other 29,000+ or so that are working just fine. If that means that Bob Leonard or Steve Alves doesn't trust the board, whatever...

Still can't believe I'm defending Behringer products, but I've been won over by what they're trying to do with their company.

I should have quoted this in my post above. My post was pretty much a quick and not so helpful response to this statement.

I will also add that WE DO hear about those 29,000 boards, almost constantly. The "my X32 is the best ever" posts are what is driving these conversations about unreliability. For better or worse (probably worse) everyone likes to be on the giving end of an I Told You So, though I do feel for the OP and wish him the best.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 25, 2013, 09:19:24 pm
If Berhinger made the best digital board in the world, I'm afraid I would have to settle for the second best.  I think I would still get by. ;)

It's a tool.  The purchaser can decide what level of perceived or actual "quality" fits their needs.  While at retail 'perception is reality', commercial end users have a keen awareness of what their needs are and will make allowances in their business model that strike a balance between initial investment and what/how much needs to be done to insure reliability in their client's eyes.

I'm not a champion of Behringer, indeed I have a long memory for what I saw as IP theft, regardless of what the courts ultimately decided along the narrow lines allowed by statute.  We have a stack of their DIs that make great wheel chocks and wedge angle adjusters.  Only time will tell if the X32 is better in that regard, but at least the X32 circuit boards do not appear to be photocopies of another firm's products.

As I mentioned almost a year ago in another forum post, we have a couple of potential opportunities that the X32 would be an ideal candidate for.  For that reason there is now an X32 sitting in our shop and being evaluated by our crew.  If we don't like what we see, we'll move on to other value mixers and see what they're like.  And it could pan out that the opportunities don't develop or morph into things that require a different type of solution, so nothing is a done deal.  Such is business.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Chuck Simon on August 25, 2013, 09:41:35 pm
I have read every X32 thread I could find for the last 6 months (including the monster thread at SF).

I see no huge failure rate issue based on the number of people posting good experiences about the product, and the number of people posting issues about the product.

In fact, compared to other digital mixers, I see less about the X32.

The X32 is NOT a MIDAS replacement board.  According to Behringer, the design testing for the X32 faders is 300,000 cycles while that of the MIDAS is 1,000,000.  If cost isn't an issue, you can engineer a motorized fader that will essentially last forever, but lets be serious.  Cost is always an issue.

As for SPC, It is my understanding (from discussions with Uli) that Behringer automatically tests each X32 and utilizes parametric information to optimize process control in their factory (which by the way is my area of expertise).

I have often had to explain to people that SPC can not catch everything.  Connectors that are seated improperly, but seated none the less, will give you a perfect pass at the end of assembly.  In fact, it is very likely that the board will work quite some time before something jiggles the connector loose.

Power supplies also have these kinds of issues.  Just because it worked when you tested it, doesn't mean it wont have infant failure later.

It is also my understanding that Behringer is now doing soak testing on every unit before shipping.  This should also reduce the infant failure rate of the electronic components.

I heard one recommendation that having a 2nd X32 for a backup would be in order to prevent this problem.  At $6K, the two X32's are still HALF the list price of of an LS9-32.

Of course, if you want to compare it to the Soundcraft Expression Si at $3500.00, things get a little more grey.

My personal thoughts are that Behringer has earned their current reputation with many seasoned sound guys.  I believe that they have a great product with the X32 line of mixers, but that it is going to take lots of time to clear up decades of screwing up.  This is clear from people like Bob who did tons of research into digital mixers, then decided to go with a Soundcraft board that .... at the time he was just ordering his, was having all kinds of issues with the early firmware.  Despite the bunch of people who reported issues, he trusted the Soundcraft name enough to get one anyway.  Now, he turned out to be right (so far).  From what I have seen, the 1.09 firmware has been quite solid, but my point still holds.

People will give a company like Soundcraft the benefit of the doubt.  Behringer gets no such slack ..... because frankly, they haven't had time to deserve it ...... yet.

I have heard quite a few people who (like myself and many others) have had inexpensive Behringer gear break in the past, but based on the many great reviews of the X32 have purchased one.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I wish Behringer all the luck in the world.  Does anyone here think we would have 16 channel Soundcraft and A&H digital mixers in the $2500 price range if it were not for the Behringer X32?

So Iggy, why don't you just break down and buy the damn thing?  You're  an outsider looking in, giving advice to everyone else who is actually in the game!
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 26, 2013, 12:36:09 am
It's possible Chuck that Scott is biding his time and exploring all options prior to his purchase. I know a guy that took over 2 years to go digital, but was still capable of a meaningful discussion prior to owning a digital board. The great thing about America is the freedom to discuss and comment based on personal opinion. Hell, we need something to talk about so it might as well be about our love or hate for Behringer.
Title: Re: Any console Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Corey Scogin on August 26, 2013, 10:44:38 am
There are simple (and inexpensive) a/c plug checkers out there.  I used one a few weeks ago to check a guy's home a/c (he was blowing speakers and thought it may be the power).  It was a nice little unit that had a small LCD and could indicate phase switching, safety ground off, ground off, line voltage, and line frequency.  It also had a plug you could put a load on.  I put a 12 amp load on that circuit to see if voltage drop was an issue (was seeing 109 volts at that load).  Frequency was spot on 60Hz.

I would highly recommend this little meter, and wish I could tell you guys the model and make, but I borrowed it from work and don't have it near me.  If anyone is interested I can look it up this week and post it.

Scott, I'd be interested in the make/model of that device.  Sounds quite handy, especially the ability to load the circuit.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve Alves on August 26, 2013, 10:47:17 am
It's possible Chuck that Scott is biding his time and exploring all options prior to his purchase. I know a guy that took over 2 years to go digital, but was still capable of a meaningful discussion prior to owning a digital board. The great thing about America is the freedom to discuss and comment based on personal opinion. Hell, we need something to talk about so it might as well be about our love or hate for Behringer.

Old Joke:
What makes a Yugo go faster? A tow truck...

New Joke:
Where is the best place to setup an X32 at a wedding? Doorstop...Punch Bowl... Swimming Pool.... Make up your own... Anywhere but FOH...
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 26, 2013, 11:12:34 am
Old Joke:
What makes a Yugo go faster? A tow truck...
Fiat: Fix It Again, Tony

New Joke:
Where is the best place to setup an X32 Mackie SR40 at a wedding ANYWHERE? Doorstop...Punch Bowl... Swimming Pool.... Make up your own... Anywhere but FOH... dumpster

Fixed it for you...

If we're bashing a brand based on a rather tiny reported field failure rate, I can start with Soundcraft.  We *were* a 100% SC shop until we had repeated, catastrophic failures (mostly PSU related).  I don't think I'd celebrated any event in my life like the day we sold the last Venue II after the PSU released the magic smoke.

We became a 100% Yamaha shop that day, and have yet to experience a Yammy analog console failure, and the Yammy digital mixer issues we've had turned out to be low service voltage, which an AVR fixed.  With the "logic" I'm seeing here, I should be bashing Bob Leonard and other Soundcraft owners and/or their mixers based on my 100% negative reliability observations of that brand's professional products, but I don't.  We got out from under our investment and moved on.

We've had an SC48 shit a hard drive right before headline sound check, had a MixRack need mix engine card re-seated, and have experienced a Midas Pro series lock up (band console).

I, like JR, find myself at odds defending a company that I've had some disputes with over the decades.  If the tool does not meet your needs, don't purchase or use it.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Wagner on August 26, 2013, 11:17:12 am

Scott,
I'm pleased that you have had a good run with your X32's. I'll also say that if the service you provide is as stated on your web site, then you should be very proud of yourself and of your company. I see that you are especially proud of your 18 year 100% on time record, and you should be.
Bob,
I think you got me confused with Scott Bolt; however, I agree with the remainder of your post.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Dave Bednarski on August 26, 2013, 12:37:23 pm
Sorry for delay.  I am now back at my 9-5... plenty of time to be unproductive. 

What Furman unit?

Furman M-8Lx  --  your assumption was correct.  What do you recommend?  Are the S16 in some way, less susceptible to power inadequacies?  These were powered off the same Monster unit - with no issue?

I would encourage you to start using some kind of voltage regulation AS WELL AS learning how to use a Fluke meter to ascertain the viability of the power wherever you go.

Would a "clamp" style meter be practical on the job... or am I am looking to probe outlets?  Both? 

--

I plugged it in back at the office today - no issue.  Do I write this off as a fluke to bad power?  Contact manufacturer?  I just don't have any confidence going into my next important/pressure job (Sept 13th) with it.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 26, 2013, 01:02:59 pm
Sorry for delay.  I am now back at my 9-5... plenty of time to be unproductive. 

Furman M-8Lx  --  your assumption was correct.  What do you recommend?  Are the S16 in some way, less susceptible to power inadequacies?  These were powered off the same Monster unit - with no issue?

Furman AR-1215 Line Voltage Regulator for rack mountable.  TrippLite makes a small "pro-sumer" unit that sells for a quarter the price of the 1215, but it is not rack mountable, just a little cube about 10" on a side.  Both are 15 amp units and should be fine for FOH.

You do not need line voltage regulators for your amps...generally speaking.

As to the Monster units: 

The only thing "Monster-ous" about them is the price.  They are ridiculously over-priced and are not one whit better than the Furman power strip you have.  I say "power strip" because "power conditioner" is a misnomer.  These things provide a bit of surge protection and multiple connection  points...no more.  They do not "condition" anything, neither do they regulate line voltage.

Quote
 

Would a "clamp" style meter be practical on the job... or am I am looking to probe outlets?  Both? 

Probes.  My Fluke meter has a slot at the top of the case which is designed to slip over single wire cables or lugs to read current draw.  That's beyond the scope of my work, so I just use the probes to make sure the voltage is correct and the wiring is proper.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Wagner on August 26, 2013, 01:08:34 pm
I plugged it in back at the office today - no issue.  Do I write this off as a fluke to bad power?  Contact manufacturer?  I just don't have any confidence going into my next important/pressure job (Sept 13th) with it.
You have no way of determining the causality at this stage.  In order to determine if power issues MAY have had something to do with it, you would have needed to meter the power prior to, during, and after the issue occurred.  Even if you had, there is no guarantee that you would be able to definitively determine if power was the culprit.  At this point, anything you or anyone else has to say about it is a WAG (Wild *ss Guess).  For the next gig (and all gigs for that matter), make sure you have suitable backups in place (or at the very least in the truck).
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 26, 2013, 03:24:51 pm
Fixed it for you...

If we're bashing a brand based on a rather tiny reported field failure rate, I can start with Soundcraft.  We *were* a 100% SC shop until we had repeated, catastrophic failures (mostly PSU related).  I don't think I'd celebrated any event in my life like the day we sold the last Venue II after the PSU released the magic smoke.

We became a 100% Yamaha shop that day, and have yet to experience a Yammy analog console failure, and the Yammy digital mixer issues we've had turned out to be low service voltage, which an AVR fixed.  With the "logic" I'm seeing here, I should be bashing Bob Leonard and other Soundcraft owners and/or their mixers based on my 100% negative reliability observations of that brand's professional products, but I don't.  We got out from under our investment and moved on.

We've had an SC48 shit a hard drive right before headline sound check, had a MixRack need mix engine card re-seated, and have experienced a Midas Pro series lock up (band console).

I, like JR, find myself at odds defending a company that I've had some disputes with over the decades.  If the tool does not meet your needs, don't purchase or use it.

You make a good point Tim. I seem to remember the exploding power supply syndrome from years back, and that illustrates the point any company can have a bad run or problem with a product line. I've spent a lot of time behind Soundcraft boards, Ghost, etc. that never had an issue, but the Venue line and it's under designed PS were always special in that regard.
 
No company is 100%, which has been pretty much my stance on the subject at hand all along. The real issue I can't overcome is the history of the manufacturer and overall product reliability. If I were to see the line hold up with minor issues over the next couple of years combined with reputable service locations in more than one state, I'll have to admit my opinion could be changed. That would not clean the taste of IP theft from my mouth, but their products would earn more than a cursory look by me. Until then though, all bets are off.
 
And here's some trivia for you. I had actually sent an email to someone at Behringer who was involved with the rollout of the X32, requesting a demo. I wanted to get a look inside, run some tests and comparisons, etc., and was about one RCH away from buying an X32. This was after some critical posts on my part, so of course Behringer never replied. End of subject for me.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 26, 2013, 03:54:32 pm
We need to separate legacy and historical baggage from actual product performance. No amount of whitewash will cover the spots but that's my personal problem, and I can live with that.

The X-32 is a remarkable engineering achievement but you do not simultaneously deliver robust over-engineered ruggedness and reliability, with sharp pencil deep value cost reduction. Nobody is that good. The two just do not exist in the same price point.

It is what is is. It may even be better than some of the other value offerings it is compared to, but why so much drama and hyperbolic expectations?  We need to see them walk the talk for a few years before making any long term determinations.

Until then good luck to the early adopters, and all of us, since this new lower price point mixer has changed the market dynamic, and lower end sound business. Time will tell if for better or worse, but i can comfortably declare it has changed. 

 JR

PS: Bob who?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: brian maddox on August 26, 2013, 04:18:40 pm

If we're bashing a brand based on a rather tiny reported field failure rate, I can start with Soundcraft.  We *were* a 100% SC shop until we had repeated, catastrophic failures (mostly PSU related).  I don't think I'd celebrated any event in my life like the day we sold the last Venue II after the PSU released the magic smoke.

We became a 100% Yamaha shop that day, and have yet to experience a Yammy analog console failure, and the Yammy digital mixer issues we've had turned out to be low service voltage, which an AVR fixed.  With the "logic" I'm seeing here, I should be bashing Bob Leonard and other Soundcraft owners and/or their mixers based on my 100% negative reliability observations of that brand's professional products, but I don't.  We got out from under our investment and moved on.....

I found this post interesting since it was a Carbon Copy of my experience.  Dying Soundcraft power supplies.  Venues [and a Vienna II].  Very painful on site experiences.  Switch to Yamaha.  Not one failure in literally thousands of shows across a myriad of product lines.

To this day i'm traumatized by my Soundcraft experience.  Does that mean all their products are bad?  of course not.  They'd be out of business by now if they were.  My experience happened a LONG time ago, and they've had ample time to correct their mistakes.  But 100 percent of my Catastrophic Nearly Career Ending console failures happened while i was looking at a Soundcraft logo, and i'm just not gonna ever get over that.  Whether that is rational or not really doesn't matter.  It is what it is.

There are plenty of people that have the same visceral reaction to a Behringer logo, and i can totally understand that and understand why.  There are also some things that factor in that have nothing to do with product performance or reliability and everything to do with perceived performance and reliability.  For instance, coming from the High End corporate world i can assure you no one i know is going to be putting an X32 on their show anytime soon, regardless of whether it is the right tool for the job.  In that world you can't afford even the appearance of cutting corners.  If the PM5d dies mid-show, the Sound tech might work again based on the fact that it has a proven reliablility record.  An X32 not so much.

NOw working at a church, i was an early adopter of the X32 and it has worked out very well for us.  But i'm no fool.  i don't expect it to have the longevity of my venerable 01v96s.  Still for us it was cheaper to buy 3 X32s, use 2 and keep one as a spare than any other option out there. 

Except maybe Soundcraft.  Did i mention i have a 'thing' with Soundcraft?  :)
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 26, 2013, 04:43:14 pm
This is an old observation of mine, but I'll repeat it anyhow. Console companies that do not have practical experience with power (heat dissipation) engineering, like that gained from making and selling audio power amps that do not blow up, often underestimate the heat sinking and other requirements for reliable power supply design. 

Just an observation, but some console companies rarely have PS issues, some always have them. Not always an easy stretch for low power audio circuit designers to handle power well.  8)  You can make up your own list of which console companies are in which group. Even console companies with no audio power amps, should figure it out eventually, but it can be a painful journey for customers getting there. Kind of embarrassing when you see a console company selling spare power supplies with new boards as if PS failure is to be expected (perhaps it is for them).   

JR

PS: Note redundant PS are part of high up-time reliability engineering, back-up JIC spare power supplies not so much. Perhaps good business but not solid design. If you think it may blow up, make it stronger.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 26, 2013, 04:54:47 pm
What John said Brian. Ancient history and current events are not apples and oranges. I too had the same power supply problems twice with the Venue series boards, and it really put me off of Soundcraft for quite some time. Now I own an Expression built in China and feel better about the board than any Venue I've ever worked or seen, but only because of the name and the fact the board is using current and proven technology combined with zero reports of catastrophic failures that I can find. I'll settle for fewer bells and whistles as long as that money is spent on reliability and testing. Like a slant 6 I just want the sucker to get me where I'm going every time I turn the key.

The point is that this problem existed many years ago, 15 or more I think, but similar to Crown's amplifier problem we're talking about companies that do NOT have a history of failed products and poor support. I'm all for Behringer's X32 line of products, but I'm also all for not spending money on products I can't and won't trust. And, as I've said in the past congrats to Uli and crew, but one service center and all the pages of text they can write doesn't tell me what 2-3 years of hard service can tell me what the future will bring. I'm all for leading edge, but never been much for bleeding edge.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Doug Fowler on August 26, 2013, 06:32:19 pm
The Soundcraft PSU problems went away (mostly?) when they got Schubert Systems to design the Series FIVE PSU. In fact, it was a selling point at the time.

Old-tyme Labsters will remember JR opining on this topic at that tyme.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 26, 2013, 07:52:48 pm
So Iggy, why don't you just break down and buy the damn thing?  You're  an outsider looking in, giving advice to everyone else who is actually in the game!

If you have me on your IGGY list, why bother replying to me at all?

I intend on purchasing a digital mixer; however, I am still waiting on the X32 Rack to arrive in stores as well as the X32 Producer.  I have yet to put my hands on the Qu-16, and even if I did, the current state of their released firmware does not support many features that the mixer is supposed to have ..... and that frankly will make the mixer a much more attractive product.

I currently have a really nice analog setup with a MixWiz, ACP88, Furman IEM's, and a M-OneXL which has served my band well for over 10-15 years (I have actually lost count).  I can wait for things to shake out on the initial release before I buy.  I fully expect whatever I buy to last me another 10 to 15 years, and I want to be sure I am OK with what I get.
Title: Re: Any console Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 26, 2013, 07:59:24 pm
Scott, I'd be interested in the make/model of that device.  Sounds quite handy, especially the ability to load the circuit.

Corey,

No problem.  I'll jot it down at work and post it for you.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 26, 2013, 08:07:37 pm
FWIW I am not sure if I would plan for 10-15 year service life from circa 2013 low end digital mixer. Kind of like computers and Iphones, even if it still works in 2025 not sure you will still want to use it. :-)


JR
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve Hurt on August 26, 2013, 08:27:58 pm
FWIW I am not sure if I would plan for 10-15 year service life from circa 2013 low end digital mixer. Kind of like computers and Iphones, even if it still works in 2025 not sure you will still want to use it. :-)


JR

In 5 years, Behringher will release a new board, the Zy32-Ultra-Producer-Lite.
It will have "Otto-Toon-Pro" on every channel.

The wildly successful board will be partially designed by someone who used to be good and built on a disused Fiat assembly line by drones using the cheapest parts available in the solar system.

The board will self terminate after 3 gigs assuming it hasn't failed yet.

It's backers will credit it for curing global warming.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Chuck Simon on August 26, 2013, 08:28:09 pm
FWIW I am not sure if I would plan for 10-15 year service life from circa 2013 low end digital mixer. Kind of like computers and Iphones, even if it still works in 2025 not sure you will still want to use it. :-)


JR

Yep, I plan on about three years.  By then I'm sure my new Expression3 will be obsolete.  In 15 years the concept of a physical mix service might be considered quaint!
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 26, 2013, 08:54:24 pm
FWIW I am not sure if I would plan for 10-15 year service life from circa 2013 low end digital mixer. Kind of like computers and Iphones, even if it still works in 2025 not sure you will still want to use it. :-)


JR

You may be right JR.

I am quite adept at keeping electronics equipment working ;)

Of course, it is a little different with digital mixers.  I can fix anything on my MixWiz 2 with parts I can order and receive in 24 hours from DigiKey, and the faders are still in production on their current model.

Once the motorized faders specified by the current incarnation of the X32 are no longer produced ..... kinda hard to fix that.

Honestly, that one issue has me thinking that the X32 Rack may provide the most robust offering of any digital mixer in this price range.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 26, 2013, 11:20:39 pm
Faders are like so 20th century....  :-)

JR
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Per Sovik on August 26, 2013, 11:45:24 pm
Once the motorized faders specified by the current incarnation of the X32 are no longer produced ..... kinda hard to fix that.
Considering that Behringer are still making their previous generation of motorized faders (BCF2000) and those seemingly have been around forever, I hardly think lack of the current generation faders is ever going to become an issue. (unless of course it becomes a classic vintage console that some will try to keep going forever  ;) )
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 27, 2013, 12:40:59 am
Faders are like so 20th century....  :-)

JR

How about a 26" touch screen JR? Although, I would probably miss the feel of a good fader.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Per Sovik on August 27, 2013, 01:23:40 am
How about a 26" touch screen JR? Although, I would probably miss the feel of a good fader.

It must be a no-brainer really, a stage box with processing and a piece of software and you're set. While there are still quite few large, self-contained touch screens on the market yet, surely the jumboPad can't be that far off. So who will be brave enough to release a mixer generation with no control surface? I realize that there are a few boxes out there that fit the bill, but they either "belong" to a surface or are available with small-screen apps.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Frank DeWitt on August 27, 2013, 09:16:46 am

How about a 26" touch screen JR? Although, I would probably miss the feel of a good fader.

People are mixing on the 3M multi touch screen now They run from 15 to 32 inch.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 27, 2013, 10:15:41 am

How about a 26" touch screen JR? Although, I would probably miss the feel of a good fader.

Think of how much cheaper this gets when we replace the low volume, expensive to build, electromechanical physical control surface, and instead substitute some high volume, low cost consumer interface. You may be mixing from your 1-watch in a few years, or the lower budget  S-watch.

JR

PS: Old guys will gravitate to bigger screens.  8)
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 27, 2013, 10:24:45 am
It must be a no-brainer really, a stage box with processing and a piece of software and you're set. While there are still quite few large, self-contained touch screens on the market yet, surely the jumboPad can't be that far off. So who will be brave enough to release a mixer generation with no control surface? I realize that there are a few boxes out there that fit the bill, but they either "belong" to a surface or are available with small-screen apps.

Media Matrix has been selling a DSP engine for a long time, while the target market has not been live sound since that is a relatively small niche compared to the rest of fixed install audio business.

I suspect we are already seeing the evolution toward this with digital consoles.

Eventually more and more will move into the stage box, until there is no control surface left. Maybe a small FOH box. 

JR
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Doug Fowler on August 27, 2013, 11:22:33 am
Think of how much cheaper this gets when we replace the low volume, expensive to build, electromechanical physical control surface, and instead substitute some high volume, low cost consumer interface. You may be mixing from your 1-watch in a few years, or the lower budget  S-watch.

JR

PS: Old guys will gravitate to bigger screens.  8)

JR's control surface, to be used at one of those Mississippi juke joints I heard about:
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 27, 2013, 11:41:59 am
That looks like the TV we had in the living room, channels 4,5 and 7.

If I were to mix from a screen I believe I would want something like a 56" CLEAR touch screen that stands up straight. The performers and hardware being used would then become superimposed on the screen and touching the mic, array, etc. would bring up a panel with available options for that device. All while you're watching the show and performers.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 27, 2013, 11:50:43 am
That looks like the TV we had in the living room, channels 4,5 and 7.

If I were to mix from a screen I believe I would want something like a 56" CLEAR touch screen that stands up straight. The performers and hardware being used would then become superimposed on the screen and touching the mic, array, etc. would bring up a panel with available options for that device. All while you're watching the show and performers.
I'm surely repeating myself, VR goggles or perhaps the newer google glass, with facial recognition software so you can just point to a muso, and squeeze his head for compression.  8)

Don't discount the improvements in AI to lighten the load from routine decision making and tweaking. If you tell the system where you want it to end up you don't have to make the actual adjustments as you go to get there...

JR
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ned Ward on August 27, 2013, 12:07:09 pm
That looks like the TV we had in the living room, channels 4,5 and 7.

If I were to mix from a screen I believe I would want something like a 56" CLEAR touch screen that stands up straight. The performers and hardware being used would then become superimposed on the screen and touching the mic, array, etc. would bring up a panel with available options for that device. All while you're watching the show and performers.


Bob - something like this may be able to be configured for more than Pro Tools...
http://www.slateproaudio.com/products/raven/
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Brian Jojade on August 27, 2013, 12:21:32 pm
People are mixing on the 3M multi touch screen now They run from 15 to 32 inch.

While mixing on a touch screen is technically possible today, the problem lies in the feedback of using the touch screen.  With a regular console, you can place your hands in position and move faders without having to look.  You can tell if your hand slips off of fader position and is now controlling the wrong fader.  Not so with a touch screen.

Until touch screens can emulate that feedback, which is still quite a few years out, physical buttons will still reign supreme.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve Hurt on August 27, 2013, 12:30:33 pm
I'm surely repeating myself, VR goggles or perhaps the newer google glass, with facial recognition software so you can just point to a muso, and squeeze his head for compression.  8)

Don't discount the improvements in AI to lighten the load from routine decision making and tweaking. If you tell the system where you want it to end up you don't have to make the actual adjustments as you go to get there...

JR

Stephen St Croix wrote about using V.R. Goggles and V.R. gloves to mix, at least 10 years ago!

He did not write about squeezing his head for compression, LOL! That's genius!
I wonder what giving the singer the finger would do!
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Dave Bednarski on August 27, 2013, 12:36:44 pm
Until touch screens can emulate that feedback, which is still quite a few years out, physical buttons will still reign supreme.

They solved that with the first iPhone!  Behold... http://4iconcepts.com/invisible-keypad

I actually bought them years ago - they made an excellent pocket lint trap!
Title: Re: Future 'Suck' Button
Post by: Russ Davis on August 27, 2013, 12:41:40 pm
I'm surely repeating myself, VR goggles or perhaps the newer google glass, with facial recognition software so you can just point to a muso, and squeeze his head for compression.  8)

Fast-forward a few more years: Holograms, so we can reach out and smack the 'talent' cupping whatever serves as a mic in the future.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Jason Lucas on August 27, 2013, 01:12:35 pm
While mixing on a touch screen is technically possible today, the problem lies in the feedback of using the touch screen.  With a regular console, you can place your hands in position and move faders without having to look.  You can tell if your hand slips off of fader position and is now controlling the wrong fader.  Not so with a touch screen.

Until touch screens can emulate that feedback, which is still quite a few years out, physical buttons will still reign supreme.

Agreed.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Mark McFarlane on August 27, 2013, 02:29:18 pm
...
I wonder what giving the singer the finger would do!

That would engage Autotune on the singers mic.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 27, 2013, 03:24:38 pm
Stephen St Croix wrote about using V.R. Goggles and V.R. gloves to mix, at least 10 years ago!

He did not write about squeezing his head for compression, LOL! That's genius!
I wonder what giving the singer the finger would do!
I've been writing about some of these concepts for a pretty long time... even wrote up some interesting PAs (product authorizations back at my old day job, that never went anywhere waiting for technology to catch up).

I think google glass kind of puts this in play again, but we need some major paradigm shifts regarding mixing to make this effective. The computer brain connected to the glasses could learn to recognize where the stage is and even who the talent are using machine vision. A new vocabulary of hand-finger gestures visible in the glass's field of view would need to be developed, and as I have alternately suggested before perhaps a results targeted approach to mixing, instead of literal iterative control tweaking could be more productive. We are just scraping the surface of how computers could help us, with products like feedback killers, but we are still thinking about linearly twiddling knobs, not setting envelopes or maps for (sonic) results. 

or not...

JR
 
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Brian Jojade on August 27, 2013, 03:52:10 pm
They solved that with the first iPhone!  Behold... http://4iconcepts.com/invisible-keypad

I actually bought them years ago - they made an excellent pocket lint trap!

That's all well and good until the screen layout changes.

Actually, technology that's being worked on now will actually be able to physically change the screen surface.  Adding bumps or changing the texture.  This also allows tactile feedback to let you know you've actually hit the button, instead of just having it show on the screen. Once that's perfected, physical controls will be less necessary.  Until that happens, give me a physical control surface over virtual any day.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ned Ward on August 27, 2013, 05:06:10 pm
has anyone bought/tried the Leap Motion? Don't think it would work for Live sound yet, but seems interesting enough at $80.

https://www.leapmotion.com/
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 27, 2013, 07:50:08 pm
I've been writing about some of these concepts for a pretty long time... even wrote up some interesting PAs (product authorizations back at my old day job, that never went anywhere waiting for technology to catch up).

I think google glass kind of puts this in play again, but we need some major paradigm shifts regarding mixing to make this effective. The computer brain connected to the glasses could learn to recognize where the stage is and even who the talent are using machine vision. A new vocabulary of hand-finger gestures visible in the glass's field of view would need to be developed, and as I have alternately suggested before perhaps a results targeted approach to mixing, instead of literal iterative control tweaking could be more productive. We are just scraping the surface of how computers could help us, with products like feedback killers, but we are still thinking about linearly twiddling knobs, not setting envelopes or maps for (sonic) results. 

or not...

JR

JR,

I agree that this is most surely how things will go.  I think for the next few years what we are going to see is that digital desks will continue to replace analog desks at production FOH rigs, but the best of these desks will continue to have plenty of physical faders and encoders.

The majority of small time operators will likely go to something like the X32 Rack, or DL1608 (including weekend warrior bands) with little or no physical interface on the mixer itself.

In the more distant future (say 10 years?) I think even the big production rigs will end up with a virtual interface with many of the features you describe.  This kind of interface may well be used for much more than just mixing pro audio in the future.

I like the way you think ;)
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Per Sovik on August 28, 2013, 02:13:50 am
Until touch screens can emulate that feedback, which is still quite a few years out, physical buttons will still reign supreme.

Second generation neural interfaces are known to be able to do virtual tactile feedback
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on August 28, 2013, 06:53:51 pm
If we're bashing a brand based on a rather tiny reported field failure rate, I can start with ...

We *were* a 100% ... shop until we had repeated, catastrophic failures (mostly PSU related).  I don't think I'd celebrated any event in my life like the day we sold the last ... after the PSU released the magic smoke.

We became a 100% Yamaha shop that day, and have yet to experience a Yammy analog console failure...

FWIW, I've seen a Yamaha console fail. Specifically, an MG166CX analog console. After professional diagnosis, we determined that the cost of repair would nearly match if not exceed the value of the unit. Admittedly, it's lower-end unit, but it did fail.

We replaced it with another Yamaha unit.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 28, 2013, 07:07:24 pm
FWIW, I've seen a Yamaha console fail. Specifically, an MG166CX analog console. After professional diagnosis, we determined that the cost of repair would nearly match if not exceed the value of the unit. Admittedly, it's lower-end unit, but it did fail.

We replaced it with another Yamaha unit.

When an MG "console" fails, it is a blessing in disguise.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bill Schnake on August 28, 2013, 07:42:25 pm
When an MG "console" fails, it is a blessing in disguise.
Dick, you're half right...When an MG "console" fails, it is a blessing.  8)
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 29, 2013, 12:55:19 am
When an MG "console" fails, it is a blessing in disguise.

Way back I owned a 12 channel Yamaha console that I actually hated, and I mean hated. The problem at the time was the kids were young and funds were tight. I used to pray for the thing to die, explode, be stolen, catch fire, run over by a truck, smashed by the band, etc. and nothing ever happened to it. The sound was just awful, but eventually the day came when I could replace it. I let the band smash it, poured gas on it and lit it on fire, drove over it with my truck, then threw it into Boston harbor like a box full of tea.
 
The only thing it ever did right was sink.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Dave Bednarski on August 29, 2013, 10:55:36 am
TrippLite makes a small "pro-sumer" unit that sells for a quarter the price of the 1215, but it is not rack mountable, just a little cube about 10" on a side.  Both are 15 amp units and should be fine for FOH.

Dick, is this the TrippLite you are referencing?

http://amzn.to/15AFg5h

Gracious. 
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 29, 2013, 11:08:19 am
Dick, is this the TrippLite you are referencing?

http://amzn.to/15AFg5h

Gracious.

Nope.  This "baby" unit bought for emergency use turns out to 'scope out very close to the Furman unit, the taps being stepped just a tad farther apart but very functional.

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LS606M-Conditioner-Outlet/dp/B00006B83G/ref=pd_sim_e_4

Inexpensive (not cheap) gear insurance.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve Hurt on August 29, 2013, 11:50:01 am
Nope.  This "baby" unit bought for emergency use turns out to 'scope out very close to the Furman unit, the taps being stepped just a tad farther apart but very functional.

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LS606M-Conditioner-Outlet/dp/B00006B83G/ref=pd_sim_e_4

Inexpensive (not cheap) gear insurance.

I'd still want a UPS as well.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 29, 2013, 12:03:45 pm
I'd still want a UPS as well.

Yup.  As I said, I picked this up for an emergency backup. 

There are currently quite a few TrippLite in-line UPS units being sold used as they come out of service as fail-safe units for larger computer server installations.  They can be had for very reasonable and new batteries for them are available for less than $100.  These are 15 or 20 amp units for rack mounting.  The only possible drawback is that the cooling fans (one push, one pull) do make a good bit of noise, so you'd want to situate the power rack well off to the side of the mix position.

PS

They aren't light weight...
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve Hurt on August 29, 2013, 12:09:47 pm
I was rooting around on amazon and tripp makes some light duty UPS's that have absolutely awful customer reviews.  I wonder at what point the quality kicks in.

This looks decent if it does what it's supposed to
(AVR and UPS in a 1 sp rack)


http://www.amazon.com/TRIPP-SMART500RT1U-6-OUTLET-500VA-SYSTEM/dp/B009U8TABS
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 29, 2013, 12:20:56 pm
I was rooting around on amazon and tripp makes some light duty UPS's that have absolutely awful customer reviews.  I wonder at what point the quality kicks in.

This looks decent if it does what it's supposed to
(AVR and UPS in a 1 sp rack)


http://www.amazon.com/TRIPP-SMART500RT1U-6-OUTLET-500VA-SYSTEM/dp/B009U8TABS

Nope.  This:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261169336068?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

For between $200 and $250 used you get something that is the real deal, heavy, powerful and a bit noisy.  These go for upwards of $1200 new.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Dave Bednarski on August 29, 2013, 12:24:09 pm
I'd still want a UPS as well.

So... as a quick start, http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LS606M-Conditioner-Outlet/dp/B00006B83G/ref=pd_sim_e_4 and a UPS?  Or just the LS606M... ?

I want to be able to sell the X32 in good conscious that it works... this was a power issue at the club... and move on to the GLD80, which I regret not doing initially. 
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 29, 2013, 12:29:32 pm
So... as a quick start, http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LS606M-Conditioner-Outlet/dp/B00006B83G/ref=pd_sim_e_4 and a UPS?  Or just the LS606M... ?

I want to be able to sell the X32 in good conscious that it works... this was a power issue at the club... and move on to the GLD80, which I regret not doing initially.

It's up to you.  You can go with inexpensive but effective voltage regulation like the baby unit linked above or you can go all the way to fully professional, heavy-duty, heavy to cart rack mountable in-line UPS.  Used price about 3-4X the little regulator, full price between $1200 and $2K.

Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Doug Moran on August 29, 2013, 12:42:52 pm
It's up to you.  You can go with inexpensive but effective voltage regulation like the baby unit linked above or you can go all the way to fully professional, heavy-duty, heavy to cart rack mountable in-line UPS.  Used price about 3-4X the little regulator, full price between $1200 and $2K.

I bought a used Tripp Lite SMART750RM1U Smart Pro 750VA 450 Watts 1U Rackmount.  50 pounds, 1 rack unit.   Works great.   Used it last weekend at a new venue, and by luck, plugged it into a circuit with a bad GFI circuit.  The Tripp Lite kept alarming, and we thought it was the unit itself.  Perhaps it already paid for itself.  I am running the X32 and two S16 boxes off to it. 

$25 on eBay.  $50 to ship.  The seller has another one up for sale there if it hits your needs. 

Doug
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Steve Hurt on August 29, 2013, 12:57:20 pm
So the difference between the 1 space unit I posted the one you posted (Dick) is one is in line and one isn't?


Looked at Tripp's site and they do have different grades of UPS's. Interesting

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/ups-battery-backup-types.cfm


<edit - Tripp calls it "On-Line", not "in line">
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 29, 2013, 01:37:12 pm
So the difference between the 1 space unit I posted the one you posted (Dick) is one is in line and one isn't?


Looked at Tripp's site and they do have different grades of UPS's. Interesting

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/ups-battery-backup-types.cfm


<edit - Tripp calls it "On-Line", not "in line">

Sounds like you've got it sussed.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Per Sovik on August 29, 2013, 02:54:52 pm
I'm using a EATON 3S with no issues whatsoever, but thinking of a rack unit and this one seems nice at a reasonable price: http://www.powerwalker.com/datasheet/Online/PowerWalker%20VFI%201000RT%20LCD.pdf (http://www.powerwalker.com/datasheet/Online/PowerWalker%20VFI%201000RT%20LCD.pdf)
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Corey Scogin on August 29, 2013, 03:06:46 pm
I was rooting around on amazon and tripp makes some light duty UPS's that have absolutely awful customer reviews.  I wonder at what point the quality kicks in.

This looks decent if it does what it's supposed to
(AVR and UPS in a 1 sp rack)

http://www.amazon.com/TRIPP-SMART500RT1U-6-OUTLET-500VA-SYSTEM/dp/B009U8TABS

I have one of those units powering my LS9 and HD24.  It has worked well for a few years (light use though).  I haven't done any performance testing on its AVR abilities but having a UPS in that form factor is quite handy and has saved me more than once.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 29, 2013, 03:16:08 pm
I have one of those units powering my LS9 and HD24.  It has worked well for a few years (light use though).  I haven't done any performance testing on its AVR abilities but having a UPS in that form factor is quite handy and has saved me more than once.

Corey, et al...

Three of us got together a couple of weeks ago and did some extensive testing of several TrippLite units, a Furman AR-1215 and my Honda EU2000 inverter generator...as well as a "office supply store" UPS.  Very interesting results. 

I'll look for the in/out specs on the little TrippLite and post them ASAP.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ed Lohr on August 29, 2013, 03:51:29 pm
Media Matrix has been selling a DSP engine for a long time, while the target market has not been live sound since that is a relatively small niche compared to the rest of fixed install audio business.

I suspect we are already seeing the evolution toward this with digital consoles.

Eventually more and more will move into the stage box, until there is no control surface left. Maybe a small FOH box. 

JR


I've been mixing live sound without physical faders for a couple years now.

SAC >>

(http://www.livewiresoundsystems.com/images/85d7cf6ff8123536f1afcde6e3aa8b7a_2hu0.png)

(http://www.livewiresoundsystems.com/images/6edce19764d4a6444c866703d0968cfd_zk3c.jpg)
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Dave Bednarski on August 29, 2013, 04:57:04 pm
$25 on eBay.  $50 to ship.  The seller has another one up for sale there if it hits your needs. 

Thank you!

Three of us got together a couple of weeks ago and did some extensive testing of several TrippLite units, a Furman AR-1215 and my Honda EU2000 inverter generator...as well as a "office supply store" UPS. 

I have done 4 jobs this summer powering the X32 off my Honda EU2000 on idle mode.  It was very happy.  Should it not be?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Cailen Waddell on August 29, 2013, 09:47:22 pm


I've been mixing live sound without physical faders for a couple years now.

SAC >>


Ed,
That's a nice SAC rig.  Is that a shure UC series wireless I spot in the CPU rack?  Is it just a wireless or does it serve some other purpose being with the CPU?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Tom Bourke on August 29, 2013, 10:17:31 pm

I've been mixing live sound without physical faders for a couple years now.

SAC >>

(http://www.livewiresoundsystems.com/images/85d7cf6ff8123536f1afcde6e3aa8b7a_2hu0.png)

(http://www.livewiresoundsystems.com/images/6edce19764d4a6444c866703d0968cfd_zk3c.jpg)
A friend and I were seriously looking at building an SAC rig recently.  It may still be on the table but reading the official and non-official forums gave me a bad feeling about it.  I am sure it works but it is NOT flexible as far as user interface.  No new features or configuration options for the last several years.  And it is not keeping up with modern OS.  I think SAC was WAY ahead of it's time.  But the attitude of the creator/programmer is a little to hostile if you need it to work some thing other than HIS way. 
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Lyon Walter on August 30, 2013, 05:31:06 am
They solved that with the first iPhone!  Behold... http://4iconcepts.com/invisible-keypad

I actually bought them years ago - they made an excellent pocket lint trap!

Touch is good as according to recent scenario
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ed Lohr on August 30, 2013, 07:46:07 am
Ed,
That's a nice SAC rig.  Is that a shure UC series wireless I spot in the CPU rack?  Is it just a wireless or does it serve some other purpose being with the CPU?

Thank you Cailen! The Shure is used as a talkback/utility/spare.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ed Lohr on August 30, 2013, 08:21:03 am
A friend and I were seriously looking at building an SAC rig recently.  It may still be on the table but reading the official and non-official forums gave me a bad feeling about it.  I am sure it works but it is NOT flexible as far as user interface.  No new features or configuration options for the last several years.  And it is not keeping up with modern OS.  I think SAC was WAY ahead of it's time.  But the attitude of the creator/programmer is a little to hostile if you need it to work some thing other than HIS way.

For me SAC works great. Not sure what you mean by not flexible. I've thought about moving back to a physical board but I can't find one under $10k that will do everything I need. I like that I can rearrange channels and setup custom views. I like being able to use VST plugins (most of them are free). I like having 24 ins and outs or more if I need. I like being able to control the whole system on my Windows 8 tablet or my laptop or my FOH rig  with a 23" monitor/keyboard/mouse. SAC isn't for everyone and it's not the answer for every gig but it has it's place and I find it very useful. I do miss having real faders but it's a compromise for all the other features. And as far as new and improved versions go... yes I have a wish list too but just like any other console, if it does what you need great, if not then there are other options out there.

On a side note... I wish someone else would step up and put something else out like SAC. How hard would it be for something like Reaper to be tweaked exclusively for live use? But that's another topic in itself.
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 30, 2013, 10:49:37 am
according to recent scenario

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Jason Lucas on August 30, 2013, 10:53:30 am
On a side note... I wish someone else would step up and put something else out like SAC. How hard would it be for something like Reaper to be tweaked exclusively for live use? But that's another topic in itself.

Working on it...give me another 5 years... ;)
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Frank DeWitt on August 30, 2013, 05:29:38 pm
On a side note... I wish someone else would step up and put something else out like SAC. How hard would it be for something like Reaper to be tweaked exclusively for live use? But that's another topic in itself.

Later this year.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Jason Lucas on August 30, 2013, 05:44:16 pm
Later this year.

Really now? Keep us posted?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Andrew Broughton on August 30, 2013, 06:01:59 pm
On a side note... I wish someone else would step up and put something else out like SAC.
Why?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Tom Bourke on August 30, 2013, 06:08:33 pm
For me SAC works great. Not sure what you mean by not flexible. I've thought about moving back to a physical board but I can't find one under $10k that will do everything I need. I like that I can rearrange channels and setup custom views. I like being able to use VST plugins (most of them are free). I like having 24 ins and outs or more if I need. I like being able to control the whole system on my Windows 8 tablet or my laptop or my FOH rig  with a 23" monitor/keyboard/mouse. SAC isn't for everyone and it's not the answer for every gig but it has it's place and I find it very useful. I do miss having real faders but it's a compromise for all the other features. And as far as new and improved versions go... yes I have a wish list too but just like any other console, if it does what you need great, if not then there are other options out there.

On a side note... I wish someone else would step up and put something else out like SAC. How hard would it be for something like Reaper to be tweaked exclusively for live use? But that's another topic in itself.
By not flexible I mean your stuck with only the fader banks the writer likes.  No API we can write to or config file we can modify.  No way to adjust the key combos or center mouse wheel function.  You HAVE to use it the way the original programmer thinks and he is very hostile if you don't like it.  I think it is a great concept.  I wish some other companies would come out with a similar product in a reasonable price range.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Jason Lucas on August 30, 2013, 06:10:22 pm
Why?

To have something like SAC made for a modern OS? To have something like SAC that actually still gets updates and bug fixes? Maybe to have something like SAC made by a reputable company?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Andrew Broughton on August 30, 2013, 06:12:27 pm
By not flexible I mean your stuck with only the fader banks the writer likes.  No API we can write to or config file we can modify.  No way to adjust the key combos or center mouse wheel function.  You HAVE to use it the way the original programmer thinks and he is very hostile if you don't like it.  I think it is a great concept.  I wish some other companies would come out with a similar product in a reasonable price range.
I doubt he has made any money whatsoever on this product. Do you think another manufacturer doing this same thing would fare better?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Andrew Broughton on August 30, 2013, 06:15:51 pm
By not flexible I mean your stuck with only the fader banks the writer likes.  No API we can write to or config file we can modify.  No way to adjust the key combos or center mouse wheel function.  You HAVE to use it the way the original programmer thinks and he is very hostile if you don't like it.
Change "hostile" to "ignored" and you have just described pretty much every digital console manufacturer.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Frank DeWitt on August 30, 2013, 06:24:26 pm
API we can write to or config file we can modify.  No way to adjust the key combos or center mouse wheel function.  You HAVE to use it the way the original programmer thinks and he is very hostile if you don't like it.  I think it is a great concept.  I wish some other companies would come out with a similar product in a reasonable price range.

All later this year.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 30, 2013, 07:02:30 pm
I've always looked at SAC as more of a DAW not quite the equal of many well written DAWs such as Cubase (which I own and use), and ProTools. I know Cubase can be would work just fine as a SAC, specifically the later versions past V4. Why not just invest in software of this type if you feel the need to mix with software only. What I can't really grasp is that by the time you've worked out all of the hardware and software needed to support SAC you could have purchased a really nice digital board. I must be missing something here.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: eric lenasbunt on August 30, 2013, 07:19:05 pm
What I can't really grasp is that by the time you've worked out all of the hardware and software needed to support SAC you could have purchased a really nice digital board. I must be missing something here.

You nailed it Bob. It seems like the SAC guys I have met just like the DIY factor. The local guy who has one spent at least $10k and I don't see any features on it that something like the GLD or even an Si Compact can't do. Just seems like a fun project, not a viable love sound mixing product.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Frank DeWitt on August 30, 2013, 07:53:50 pm
What I can't really grasp is that by the time you've worked out all of the hardware and software needed to support SAC you could have purchased a really nice digital board. I must be missing something here.

I have 5K invested.  I have 48 ch in and 40 out. One mixer for FOH, one for recording (Separate control surface) and 10 mixers for IEMs.  The 5 K includes the complete IEM system.

Also when I wanted to expand from 40 to 48 in I just added a 8 ch preamp.  If I need to expand it again I can.
I purchased a number of really nice digital boards.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 30, 2013, 08:43:10 pm
That's nice Frank but for $3500, or $1500 less, I have remote access, 32 channels in expandable to 66, 24 out, Lexicon effects, BSS EQ, etc., 14 dedicated mix channels out, 4 matrix channels out, LRC, option card capability, motorized faders, a full tactile and quality hardware interface, connectivity to Studer products, 2 year warranty, and firmware upgrades as needed, and that's just the tip of the iceburg.

I just don't really get SAC unless it was used for recording, but then I have Cubase which can be expanded to 100s of channels and supports surround sound, and every conceivable plug in. My analog head is hard, but not so hard I couldn't see the writing on the wall.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Frank DeWitt on August 30, 2013, 09:26:09 pm
That's nice Frank but for $3500, or $1500 less,
Thanks Bob.  That makes me feel good.  I think I got a great deal, more inputs, more outputs, more mixers, full keyboard for entering fader names and scribble strip lines. 16 dedicated buttons for scenes 16 motorized faders. Two 21 in video monitors so every thing is on one level. Wireless remote with support for its own motorized faders. And the IEM system. Best of all, we both have a mixer that does what we need it to do.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Tom Bourke on August 30, 2013, 09:43:44 pm
That's nice Frank but for $3500, or $1500 less, I have remote access, 32 channels in expandable to 66, 24 out, Lexicon effects, BSS EQ, etc., 14 dedicated mix channels out, 4 matrix channels out, LRC, option card capability, motorized faders, a full tactile and quality hardware interface, connectivity to Studer products, 2 year warranty, and firmware upgrades as needed, and that's just the tip of the iceburg.

I just don't really get SAC unless it was used for recording, but then I have Cubase which can be expanded to 100s of channels and supports surround sound, and every conceivable plug in. My analog head is hard, but not so hard I couldn't see the writing on the wall.
Until this year  with the X32 and lower priced Soundcraft I can't think of another console in the $5k to $10k range that could do what a SAC rig of that price range could do.  I think the big advantage to SAC is if you need another mix-position or want to give each musician there own "mixer" all you need is another laptop or windows tablet.

I really like the idea of a rack on stage that can host a large variety of control positions.  You can get that with several manufactures but not any where in the sub $15k to $20k market.  Now we have a few options for lower cost consoles that lets us approximate that functionality because we can buy several sub $2500 consoles and stage boxes and link them with 300 ft of cat5 so they can share inputs.

I really like the concept of SAC, but I feel like I would be giving up too many things in the user interface and company backing to get its advantages.  I am looking forward to these other offerings.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ed Lohr on August 31, 2013, 10:06:45 am
By not flexible I mean your stuck with only the fader banks the writer likes.  No API we can write to or config file we can modify.  No way to adjust the key combos or center mouse wheel function.  You HAVE to use it the way the original programmer thinks and he is very hostile if you don't like it.  I think it is a great concept.  I wish some other companies would come out with a similar product in a reasonable price range.

OK. I can agree with that.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ed Lohr on August 31, 2013, 10:37:03 am
All later this year.

I'm extremely interested in this. Will you keep me posted?
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Ed Lohr on August 31, 2013, 10:52:41 am
I've always looked at SAC as more of a DAW not quite the equal of many well written DAWs such as Cubase (which I own and use), and ProTools. I know Cubase can be would work just fine as a SAC, specifically the later versions past V4. Why not just invest in software of this type if you feel the need to mix with software only. What I can't really grasp is that by the time you've worked out all of the hardware and software needed to support SAC you could have purchased a really nice digital board. I must be missing something here.

Do you have any hands on experience with SAC? For the types of bands and venues I work in (mostly bars and night clubs) it works great. Some places don't have the space for a board out front or next to the "stage". It's nice to have all the features of a full console (and monitor console/s) without having to setup a physical console just so I can remote control it. I guess it's all about the level of comprise you're willing to deal with.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Job
Post by: Rob Gow on August 31, 2013, 04:14:04 pm
A 20 million dollar repair facility means little when the band is waiting on you and you X32 that isn't working.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Frank DeWitt on August 31, 2013, 06:48:52 pm
I'm extremely interested in this. Will you keep me posted?
Yes,  This isn't me but a friend of mine.  I have seen it and heard it and as soon as he says GO I will let you know.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Job
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 31, 2013, 07:32:07 pm
A 20 million dollar repair facility means little when the band is waiting on you and you X32 that isn't working.
As Hartley Peavey said years ago-when asked what amplifier he felt was best-he said "One that works".

If it is a choice between a great sounding/performing unit that does not work- or a "Piece of %#@& that DOES work-most people will choose the piece that works.

It has been funny to me over the years with visiting "engineers" and when a "pro" piece of gear has an issue-it is given a "free pass" because "Well that happens to that gear sometimes".

So they will "do without" (unless it is essentially needed), yet will bitch all over the place if a MI piece of gear is in place and actually WORKING.

So the engineer feels better because the "right gear" (although broken) is in the room?  How does that make it usable??????????????????????????

Maybe I am confused :(
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Dave Bednarski on June 23, 2014, 12:37:48 pm
It did it again Saturday night (June 21, 2014) setting up for private party.  Exact same symptoms, a year later, http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=145694.msg1341382#msg1341382

Since originally posting this last summer, I purchased and use a Tripp Lite SMART750RM (http://bit.ly/1jJtJoc).  The X32 was plugged in to this... the Tripp Lite was happy, indicating no irregularities.  Went to power up the X32... the back lights on the buttons around the LCD screen were lit up but nothing else.

Replaced the IEC power cord with several others, no luck.

Sent band member to go pick up the backup analog console... like last time, let it set there partially "booted" magically half hour later it boots up.  No other issues for the rest of the evening.

Plugged in at the office this morning, just fine with or without the Tripp Lite.

How much confidence will you have in the board going forward, and are you planning to "send it away" to LV now that the issue has become intermittent and harder to diagnose?

Exactly.  Ugh.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: jasonfinnigan on June 23, 2014, 12:58:23 pm
It did it again Saturday night (June 21, 2014) setting up for private party.  Exact same symptoms, a year later, http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=145694.msg1341382#msg1341382

Since originally posting this last summer, I purchased and use a Tripp Lite SMART750RM (http://bit.ly/1jJtJoc).  The X32 was plugged in to this... the Tripp Lite was happy, indicating no irregularities.  Went to power up the X32... the back lights on the buttons around the LCD screen were lit up but nothing else.

Replaced the IEC power cord with several others, no luck.

Sent band member to go pick up the backup analog console... like last time, let it set there partially "booted" magically half hour later it boots up.  No other issues for the rest of the evening.

Plugged in at the office this morning, just fine with or without the Tripp Lite.

Exactly.  Ugh.

Sounds like a power supply/leaky capacitor issue to me.
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Rob Spence on June 23, 2014, 01:33:32 pm
I really like the idea of the mix engine being set the stage ala iLive or the X32 rack. With the iLive you can choose your surface size or use an iPad. I expect the X32 to evolve that way as a choice.

I like being able to remote mix. I did a 2 day festival this past weekend with my LS9 at side stage. I could set the trims and monitors at the mixer then walk out to the audience to dial in the mix.

What I don't like is that I cannot continue to look at the band while mixing. I must watch the iPad which means I may miss a gesture from the stage.

Also, not all the remote mixing apps are responsive. Stagemix is, I hear the X32 one is, but I find the GLD app to be sluggish and unpredictable.

I want a handheld device with 8 real faders, a touchscreen about the size of half an iPad that behaves something like Stagemix but customizable for many mixers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
Post by: Mark McFarlane on June 24, 2014, 04:40:28 am
...Also, not all the remote mixing apps are responsive. Stagemix is, I hear the X32 one is, but I find the GLD app to be sluggish and unpredictable.

I have both an X32 and GLD and agree. Hopefully Allen Heath will redo the GLD iPad app, I find the GLD iPad app the only feature of the GLD that is 'not fantastic', everything else about the GLD has exceeded my expectations.