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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Tim Weaver on July 22, 2013, 05:42:40 pm

Title: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tim Weaver on July 22, 2013, 05:42:40 pm
What do you guys think about the X32 as far as club land acceptability goes? Would it be worth it to step up to the Soundcraft Expression? They are not too far apart in price, unless you are going for the digi snake. THen the price difference is much greater.


A few short years ago we saw the GL2400 in this role. Nobody really liked it, but everybody would accept it and do the gig. Is the X32 gonna fill that spot?
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Scott Bolt on July 22, 2013, 06:11:18 pm
What do you guys think about the X32 as far as club land acceptability goes? Would it be worth it to step up to the Soundcraft Expression? They are not too far apart in price, unless you are going for the digi snake. THen the price difference is much greater.


A few short years ago we saw the GL2400 in this role. Nobody really liked it, but everybody would accept it and do the gig. Is the X32 gonna fill that spot?

Hi Tim,

I am surprised that a lounge act would require as many inputs and capabilities as even the X32 has.  Most of the lounge acts I have seen are small blues setups, piano solo, guitar acoustic, etc.

Are you talking about Casino lounges?  I have seen a few of those with full bands playing.

I guess it never occurred to me that lounge acts would have mixer expectations.

I would say that most of the lounge acts I have heard benefit most from good vocal clarity and outstanding reverb efx.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: James A. Griffin on July 22, 2013, 06:24:56 pm
What do you guys think about the X32 as far as club land acceptability goes?

Which lounges and clubs are you talking about?
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Dave Dermont on July 22, 2013, 07:29:24 pm
Hi Tim,

I am surprised that a lounge act would require as many inputs and capabilities as even the X32 has.  Most of the lounge acts I have seen are small blues setups, piano solo, guitar acoustic, etc.

Are you talking about Casino lounges?  I have seen a few of those with full bands playing.

I guess it never occurred to me that lounge acts would have mixer expectations.

I would say that most of the lounge acts I have heard benefit most from good vocal clarity and outstanding reverb efx.

I think by "Lounge", Mr. Weaver might be referring to The LAB Lounge, the name of this forum. As in "Not Varsity Level Touring".

Just a guess.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 22, 2013, 07:38:39 pm
I think by "Lounge", Mr. Weaver might be referring to The LAB Lounge, the name of this forum. As in "Not Varsity Level Touring".

Just a guess.

Bingo!

I posted a photo of a tour that came through one of our venues that featured at DiGiCo SD10 (IIRC), our AVID Venue/Mixrack, and the middle act (touring support) on an X32.

I think the answer to Weaver's question is "yes, it's already happening."
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on July 22, 2013, 08:24:01 pm
Bingo!

I posted a photo of a tour that came through one of our venues that featured at DiGiCo SD10 (IIRC), our AVID Venue/Mixrack, and the middle act (touring support) on an X32.

I think the answer to Weaver's question is "yes, it's already happening."

I just did a show where the headliner had an SD8 and a CL3, mixed the opener on the X32, the headliner's tech guys were actually curious about the console.

The overall response to the console from touring groups (we're obviously not talking arena level) seems to be curiousity, some guys are looking at them as a backup board to stash in the trailer for off dates, other guys are looking for replacements for their 01V/MixWiz/etc monitor setups.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 22, 2013, 09:50:55 pm
The X32 is a capable full featured box introduced at the right time, and for the right price. The problems I have with the box are simply this. Too many features jammed into the box that are not well organized which leads to a long learning curve, unreliable stage box, low quality sound, low quality faders, only one service center in the USA, the name.

Will the X32 be accepted? Well, it looks like it's on the way, but with the advent of additional players entering the low cost digital market it's going to take more than flashing lights to hold onto the ground Uli and group have planted their flag in. The QU-16 and the expression are both offspring from long and well respected lines of digital mixers. Using the same construction, components, and designs, particularly in the case of the expression, spells reliability and confidence in the product. These boards, and others that will eventually come as a result, will eventually take huge bites out of Uli's intended X32 market, if for no other reason then the name on the box.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tim Weaver on July 22, 2013, 10:09:43 pm
I think by "Lounge", Mr. Weaver might be referring to The LAB Lounge, the name of this forum. As in "Not Varsity Level Touring".

Just a guess.


Ding ding ding.... Give the man a cigar!


I'm referring to band-in-a-van touring acts that are playing anywhere from 200 person clubs to being 2nd act playing at 3 in the afternoon on a big summer festival. Most of these guys have some kind of engineer.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: James A. Griffin on July 22, 2013, 10:14:14 pm
I'm referring to band-in-a-van touring acts that are playing anywhere from 200 person clubs to being 2nd act playing at 3 in the afternoon on a big summer festival. Most of these guys have some kind of engineer.

I just polished my crystal ball and it told me that in a very short while, the analog board will be the odd exception on all stages, even the 200 seat club.    In that day any "some kind of engineer" will have to be able to drive whatever is there.



Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: David Parker on July 22, 2013, 11:08:53 pm
What do you guys think about the X32 as far as club land acceptability goes? Would it be worth it to step up to the Soundcraft Expression? They are not too far apart in price, unless you are going for the digi snake. THen the price difference is much greater.


A few short years ago we saw the GL2400 in this role. Nobody really liked it, but everybody would accept it and do the gig. Is the X32 gonna fill that spot?
the problem with the X32 in the 200 seat clubs is it's physical size.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Evan Hunter on July 22, 2013, 11:32:39 pm
the problem with the X32 in the 200 seat clubs is it's physical size.

Really? The footprint of my Mackie Onyx 1640 and 8U FOH rack is larger than an X32 with a dog house... If I go with an X32 in the future its likely all of my smaller analog boards will be sold off and it will be the smallest board I keep in inventory.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: David Parker on July 22, 2013, 11:39:53 pm
Really? The footprint of my Mackie Onyx 1640 and 8U FOH rack is larger than an X32 with a dog house... If I go with an X32 in the future its likely all of my smaller analog boards will be sold off and it will be the smallest board I keep in inventory.
the X32 is twice as wide as my LS9-16, and with two expanders underneath, I'm still at rack width and 32 channels
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tommy Peel on July 22, 2013, 11:51:06 pm
Really? The footprint of my Mackie Onyx 1640 and 8U FOH rack is larger than an X32 with a dog house... If I go with an X32 in the future its likely all of my smaller analog boards will be sold off and it will be the smallest board I keep in inventory.

???
My Mackie Onyx's rack case might be a little deeper than a x32 but the x32 is much wider. Note that my rotopod is under the mixer so it will fit in my case(SKB mini GigRig).

I'm really interested on the x32 compact as a replacement for the Mackie, idk if/when I'll be able to afford it but they look really nice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: David Parker on July 22, 2013, 11:53:28 pm
???
My Mackie Onyx's rack case might be a little deeper than a x32 but the x32 is much wider. Note that my rotopod is under the mixer so it will fit in my case(SKB mini GigRig).

I'm really interested on the x32 compact as a replacement for the Mackie, idk if/when I'll be able to afford it but they look really nice.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
in my world I can stand the depth a lot more than i can the width
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Evan Hunter on July 23, 2013, 12:02:38 am
in my world I can stand the depth a lot more than i can the width

I suppose this is true, most analog boards people bring are vertical. I didnt measure but the past weekend the band had an LS9 on the ears and we had an X32 out front... didnt seem much wider.

I do actually see the X32 taking a lot of gigs in this level though. It was a decent learning curve for me but its price point to features is hard to beat I suppose.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: George Dougherty on July 23, 2013, 12:06:14 am

Ding ding ding.... Give the man a cigar!


I'm referring to band-in-a-van touring acts that are playing anywhere from 200 person clubs to being 2nd act playing at 3 in the afternoon on a big summer festival. Most of these guys have some kind of engineer.

I travel with a better one of those bands.  We play at a lot of regional festivals, county/state fairs, city celebrations. With a bit of trepidation we picked one up this year and are now touring with it. Build quality is improved over the first few generations and the board has been 100% stable for us.

The latest ipad app released today gives control over 100% of the board features likely because of the need for the rack and core version. I've got the remote apps for a number of the major desks and the x32 is one of the best out there.

As for small clubs, the x32 compact is a decent size, ,assuming you don't need a bigger channel count, or can get the stage boxes to work reliably.

To my ears it doesn't sound bad at all and I get lots of compliments on the sound of the band.  That's pretty typical for me though whatever I use and it doesnt hurt that the band puts on a great show, which makes people more ammenable to any shortcomings in a mix. I would say it tends towards a brighter sound out of the box. I'd really like to hear one with a Midas DL251 as the front end.

I've had a number of smaller production companies mention they own one as well as I'm advancing the show and everyone seems to really enjoy theirs. If this one holds up problem free for the season, I'll probably be picking up one for myself, maybe a compact so I can fit it in my sedan rather than dragging the truck out.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Jason Lucas on July 23, 2013, 12:45:37 am
There are a number of features I use whenever I have access to them (usually only in the studio) that a lot of lower priced digital mixers don't have, such as:


The only digital mixer out there that has all of these features under $5k is the X32.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Nicolas Poisson on July 23, 2013, 03:47:55 am
Isn't the lounge level defined by "bands that will accept any device as long as it works properly" anyway ? So the X32 will be accepted.

Whether it will take over the market or it will remain only one small contender is another question. As said above, Uli has to cope with competitors with greater experience, better renown, better service, near same price (or "not that more expensive" ).
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Robert Piascik on July 23, 2013, 05:59:12 am
My experience has been most of my acts are completely unaware of the turnaround Behringer is trying to make. I have to point out the purchase of Midas, Klark-Technic and Turbosound when singing the praises (while glancing around) of my X32. Most are just amazed by the iPad control and features. I'm sure this will become more commonplace as time goes on but right now I'm looked at as ahead of the curve.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 23, 2013, 07:43:24 am
There are a number of features I use whenever I have access to them (usually only in the studio) that a lot of lower priced digital mixers don't have, such as:

  • 4 band fully parametric EQ
  • Side-chain input on compressors and gates/expanders (with high and low pass filters)
  • Compressors on buses (admittedly, most digital mixers do actually have this)
  • Ability to route input channels to AUX buses, pre-processing (or at least post HPF, pre-dynamics, pre-EQ)
  • Ability to route channel direct outputs, pre-processing (or at least post HPF, pre-dynamics, pre-EQ)
  • Ability to set an insert point pre or post EQ
The only digital mixer out there that has all of these features under $5k is the X32.

That's a good listing of the Soundcraft Expressions features with the exception of the EQ, which is the same 4 channel parametric/shelving EQ Soundcraft has been famous for since their first board in the 70's. There is one feature that Soundcraft has that Behringer doesn't have. Great sound.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Dave Dermont on July 23, 2013, 08:57:52 am
the problem with the X32 in the 200 seat clubs is it's physical size.

If you've ever done gigs in small places with a PM4000 and a 24 space rack, you might not think the X32 is all that big.

Do you really work in venues where a mixer less than two racks wide is a space issue?
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Jay Barracato on July 23, 2013, 09:08:02 am
If you've ever done gigs in small places with a PM4000 and a 24 space rack, you might not think the X32 is all that big.

Do you really work in venues where a mixer less than two racks wide is a space issue?

Actually yes, I can think of a number of listening rooms scattered around the east coast where that is the equivalent of a 6 top table which is 10% of the paid seats.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on July 23, 2013, 10:21:33 am
There is one feature that Soundcraft has that Behringer doesn't have. Great sound.

It's too bad the Expression wasn't around for the listening test that was done. I personally have no issues with sound quality, whether I'm using the X32 or our Soundcraft analog boards.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 23, 2013, 10:23:11 am
If the venue is that small why would you need or bring a 32 channel board in the first place? Just asking, never worked in a venue that small.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 23, 2013, 10:26:20 am
It's too bad the Expression wasn't around for the listening test that was done. I personally have no issues with sound quality, whether I'm using the X32 or our Soundcraft analog boards.

I think you would be shocked at the sound quality. I know I was, and the comparison was made between an LS9, X32, and my APB Pro House. Only the APB was close or an equal to the Expression, and now I find out that Soundcraft is using the same chip set that's being used in the Studer consoles in the Expression.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: David Parker on July 23, 2013, 10:42:18 am
If you've ever done gigs in small places with a PM4000 and a 24 space rack, you might not think the X32 is all that big.

Do you really work in venues where a mixer less than two racks wide is a space issue?
Yes, all the time. There is a pub chain in Houston, Baker Street, they have bands all the time but were not designed for bands. Space is ridiculously limited. Stages are tiny and space for mixworld nonexistent. I usually mix dodging pool cues or with people leaning on me. None of the clubs I work have room for a mixer wider than a rack space.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on July 23, 2013, 10:45:09 am

I think you would be shocked at the sound quality. I know I was, and the comparison was made between an LS9, X32, and my APB Pro House. Only the APB was close or an equal to the Expression, and now I find out that Soundcraft is using the same chip set that's being used in the Studer consoles in the Expression.

I'd like to hear the Expression and X32 next to each other, gotta remember to keep bugging the SC rep for a demo.

The Expression doesn't have scribble strips right? I was seriously GASing for an E1 until I saw that, how easy is it to navigate with that omission?
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: David Parker on July 23, 2013, 10:45:40 am
If the venue is that small why would you need or bring a 32 channel board in the first place? Just asking, never worked in a venue that small.
none of the bands I work fit on 16 channels. Complete drum micing is required by the bands, which eats up 8 channels, 5 singers, 3 keys, bass, electric guitar, two track mp3 for break music, pretty common setup for the Houston club scene
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Jason Lucas on July 23, 2013, 10:59:40 am

That's a good listing of the Soundcraft Expressions features with the exception of the EQ, which is the same 4 channel parametric/shelving EQ Soundcraft has been famous for since their first board in the 70's. There is one feature that Soundcraft has that Behringer doesn't have. Great sound.

Actually the Soundcraft Expression is lacking not only the fully parametric 4 band, but also side chain inputs on the compressors (and key filters), and as I've mentioned before, you can't set the "tap off" point for AUX buses to be pre-dynamics. So of all the features I've mentioned it only has two.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Samuel Rees on July 23, 2013, 11:16:08 am
Actually the Soundcraft Expression is lacking not only the fully parametric 4 band, but also side chain inputs on the compressors (and key filters), and as I've mentioned before, you can't set the "tap off" point for AUX buses to be pre-dynamics. So of all the features I've mentioned it only has two.

As well as VCAs and scribble strips, which is a big deal.

I've never used real sidechains live before, who uses that? The sidechain HPF/LPF is totally sufficient on the Si.

I was just a a club with an X32 install. They are going to be accepted more than the Presonus as a a lounge level product I think for sure. 
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Greg_Cameron on July 23, 2013, 11:16:18 am
The problems I have with the box are simply this. Too many features jammed into the box that are not well organized which leads to a long learning curve, unreliable stage box, low quality sound, low quality faders, only one service center in the USA, the name.

While I have the same skepticism about Behringer products as anyone, I have to say I didn't have any issue with the sound quality of the desk or the faders. Can't speak to the stage boxes (didn't use them), but I do agree the programming is not very slick and you really need a computer or 2 connected to get efficient use of things you need quick access to like graphic EQs and scribble strip text entry.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Jason Lucas on July 23, 2013, 11:51:08 am
As well as VCAs and scribble strips, which is a big deal.

I've never used real sidechains live before, who uses that? The sidechain HPF/LPF is totally sufficient on the Si.

I was just a a club with an X32 install. They are going to be accepted more than the Presonus as a a lounge level product I think for sure.

I use sidechains all the time. Albeit a lot more in the studio.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Samuel Rees on July 23, 2013, 11:54:51 am
I use sidechains all the time. Albeit a lot more in the studio.

The studio is, of course, a whole different thing. Have you ever used a sidechain filter live, BESIDES a sidechainHPF/LPF? I have not. Digico also has the same HPF/LPF sidechain on their gates.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Jason Lucas on July 23, 2013, 12:03:52 pm
The studio is, of course, a whole different thing. Have you ever used a sidechain filter live, BESIDES a sidechainHPF/LPF?

Yes. I send the snare drum to the side chain on the compressor of the overheads.

And sometimes I'll put the lead vocalist into the side chain of the compressor on one of the backing vocalists, since our lead vocalist drops out a lot (he plays guitar and sometimes he'll stop singing and just play), so I can leave the backing vocal up and just have her compressed when the lead is singing. Forms a sort of "auto-mix" situation.

If the bus compressors have side chain inputs you can put the vocal in there on a delay, and  set the attack and release so that the delay will be compressed until the last syllable where the compressor backs off and the delay comes way up.

Stuff like that. It's definitely not a necessary feature, but I use it when I have it.

I know I nit-pick a lot about the digital boards out there and I think I probably come off as one of those guys that can't mix unless he has all the bells and whistles but I've mixed this same band on a Soundcraft M8 with a cheap little alesis multi effects unit and no compressors and it sounded just fine. I'd prefer not to have to do that very often but I can "make it work".
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Rufus G. Crowder on July 23, 2013, 12:23:14 pm
While I have the same skepticism about Behringer products as anyone, I have to say I didn't have any issue with the sound quality of the desk or the faders. Can't speak to the stage boxes (didn't use them), but I do agree the programming is not very slick and you really need a computer or 2 connected to get efficient use of things you need quick access to like graphic EQs and scribble strip text entry.
I found that that the Behringer X32 is the best value for the money right now.  The feature set alone made my rig 100% better.  The learning curve was a challenge at first but now it is very easy to get around to use most of the features.  I don't understand why you need to hook up additional computers to get to graphic EQ's (press the Effects Button) or scribble strip text entry.  It is very easy!  The stage boxes work wonderfully too!  I liked the board so much, I recently installed one at my church and received immediate compliments on the sound.  The size of the Board is perfect in my opinion (only two elbow lengths).  The availability to remotely control it from an iPad or laptop a huge plus!  All of my band members and worship team members use their iPhones to control their monitor mixes. You can leave it on stage if you have to!  I used to use a Yamaha 01V96.  I would really like to hear of a better deal and solution than what Uli has put out here thus far.  It was a Game Changer for me for sure!  Unreliable sound???  Steep learning curve???  Unreliable stage box???  Sorry, Bob my experiences with the X32 are much different than yours.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tim Weaver on July 23, 2013, 12:24:23 pm
Yes, all the time. There is a pub chain in Houston, Baker Street, they have bands all the time but were not designed for bands. Space is ridiculously limited. Stages are tiny and space for mixworld nonexistent. I usually mix dodging pool cues or with people leaning on me. None of the clubs I work have room for a mixer wider than a rack space.


Sorry David, but this is hardly relevant to what I'm asking.

I've worked in a couple of Baker St pubs, and you are right on all accounts. I however am concerned with places that have a different level of acts coming through. A place like the Mucky Duck comes to mind. They have around 100 seats, maybe 150 when standing room only is sold. They use a 24 channel GL2200 with a big rack on top that you can't see around. In this instance the x32 would considerably lessen the "bulk" of FOH.

Baker St, as far as I know does cover or "party" bands only, right?

Samuel said something that struck home. They are already accepted more readily than the SL24, and I see those all the time on the road. (I tour with one of those bands we are talking about, BTW) so why wouldn't the x32 be accepted? I think it's just down to brand snobbery at this point.


Hmmm.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: David Parker on July 23, 2013, 12:29:25 pm

Sorry David, but this is hardly relevant to what I'm asking.

I've worked in a couple of Baker St pubs, and you are right on all accounts. I however am concerned with places that have a different level of acts coming through. A place like the Mucky Duck comes to mind. They have around 100 seats, maybe 150 when standing room only is sold. They use a 24 channel GL2200 with a big rack on top that you can't see around. In this instance the x32 would considerably lessen the "bulk" of FOH.

Baker St, as far as I know does cover or "party" bands only, right?

Samuel said something that struck home. They are already accepted more readily than the SL24, and I see those all the time on the road. (I tour with one of those bands we are talking about, BTW) so why wouldn't the x32 be accepted? I think it's just down to brand snobbery at this point.


Hmmm.

as I said, "where I live". Yes, cover bands, that's where I live. I make less money per job than I used to, but it's easier and I work more often. Compact is extremely important in my world, and a mixer the size of the X32 would cause me problems. When they come out with the rack width version of it, that would be different, but by the time I need to replace my LS9, I'll be retired from the sound business. By that time I suspect we wont be using mixers as such anymore, there will be a rack on stage and an ipad, which is pretty much available now.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tommy Peel on July 23, 2013, 01:38:01 pm
If the bus compressors have side chain inputs you can put the vocal in there on a delay, and  set the attack and release so that the delay will be compressed until the last syllable where the compressor backs off and the delay comes way up.
That's a nice trick; I have to keep my hand on the aux knob(analog) feeding my delay to get that effect(not to mention having the delay properly tap sync'd with the music). I always wondered how people got that effect to be consistent; I'll have to play with it in my DAW sometime.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Greg_Cameron on July 23, 2013, 02:20:06 pm
I don't understand why you need to hook up additional computers to get to graphic EQ's (press the Effects Button) or scribble strip text entry.  It is very easy!

Compared to using a real graphic EQ or a virtual one on higher end digital desks, it's actually not so great as you can only access 6 bands at a time on the surface using a rotary encoder to select which group of 6, or use all rotary encoders to make changes. It's actually very cumbersome. And the scribble strip programming on the fly in a festival style situation is actually terrible. With a computer connected to the board, EQ changes are much faster than with the surface because you can access the entire graphic with the mouse instantly instead of futzing with encoders and selecting groups of bands. And with the computer, scribble strip entry takes a couple of seconds per channel instead of a minute+. It may not seem like big deal if you never change your board setup. But if you're doing a bunch of bands and don't have time to pre-program everything, it's pretty big pain. For that reason, one local owner of an X32 has gone back to using board tape and SharpieŽ to label channels. It shouldn't be that way. My feature request posted in another thread on SFN is ability to connect a keyboard and mouse. It would make things a lot easier than the menu navigation sans connected computer. It probably won't happen though. I realize the board is inexpensive and their will be compromises. One of those compromises in my experience is that you really need a $500+ computer or tablet connected to it in order to gain basic efficiency you would get with analog gear.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: James A. Griffin on July 23, 2013, 02:25:23 pm
If you've ever done gigs in small places with a PM4000 and a 24 space rack, you might not think the X32 is all that big.

Do you really work in venues where a mixer less than two racks wide is a space issue?

Hmmmm... seems like a case where you could put the mixer backstage and mix on the dreaded $%&#) iPad.   
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on July 23, 2013, 02:28:07 pm
Compared to using a real graphic EQ or a virtual one on higher end digital desks, it's actually not so great as you can only access 6 bands at a time on the surface using a rotary encoder to select which group of 6, or use all rotary encoders to make changes. It's actually very cumbersome. And the scribble strip programming on the fly in a festival style situation is actually terrible. With a computer connected to the board, EQ changes are much faster than with the surface because you can access the entire graphic with the mouse instantly instead of futzing with encoders and selecting groups of bands. And with the computer, scribble strip entry takes a couple of seconds per channel instead of a minute+. It may not seem like big deal if you never change your board setup. But if you're doing a bunch of bands and don't have time to pre-program everything, it's pretty big pain. For that reason, one local owner of an X32 has gone back to using board tape and SharpieŽ to label channels. It shouldn't be that way. My feature request posted in another thread on SFN is ability to connect a keyboard and mouse. It would make things a lot easier than the menu navigation sans connected computer. It probably won't happen though. I realize the board is inexpensive and their will be compromises. One of those compromises in my experience is that you really need a $500+ computer or tablet connected to it in order to gain basic efficiency you would get with analog gear.

Or a used $250 Lenovo  :D

I understand the other concerns, but you need to be realistic at this price point.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Samuel Rees on July 23, 2013, 02:34:12 pm
Interesting about the sidechains Jason - never used them live even once. What mixer has them besides the X32? Digico SD does, that's the only thing I've used that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tommy Peel on July 23, 2013, 02:36:53 pm
One of those compromises in my experience is that you really need a $500+ computer or tablet connected to it in order to gain basic efficiency you would get with analog gear.
I'd say you could get a computer that would run the x32-Edit app for much less than that. Newegg has a refurbished laptop for $150; it's nothing fancy but it doesn't take much to run the program. If you had an old computer laying around as long as it'll run WinXP or Ubuntu it would work fine.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: George Dougherty on July 23, 2013, 02:46:27 pm
If the bus compressors have side chain inputs you can put the vocal in there on a delay, and  set the attack and release so that the delay will be compressed until the last syllable where the compressor backs off and the delay comes way up.
I hadn't gone looking for how to do a duck delay on the x32, but yes, you can even use a subgroup as the key source.  Quite awesome.

I hate to say it, since I'd rather see a good ui on the console that makes everything simple and usable, but the ipad really is almost a required accessory for best results with the x32.

Graphic EQ's are quick and easy, channel naming is type and hit enter to advance to the next, eq adjustments, everything is simpler on a touch screen of a good size.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Jason Lucas on July 23, 2013, 02:53:08 pm
Interesting about the sidechains Jason - never used them live even once. What mixer has them besides the X32? Digico SD does, that's the only thing I've used that I'm aware of.

Roland V-mixers, Avid VENUE, Midas PRO series, and the Yamaha CL series to name a few.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Samuel Rees on July 23, 2013, 02:57:08 pm
Roland V-mixers, Avid VENUE, Midas PRO series, and the Yamaha CL series to name a few.

Never used Yamaha CL or Midas Pro. I suppose I knew about Avid, and of course the Digico I mentioned. I suppose the LS9/M7 have the ducker. Seems like a pretty pro class feature from, with the exception of Roland (which I guess you use) and the X32. Anybody else use this much? I can see how in a house of worship scenario with repeating shows every week it might be useful, but for normal use it doesn't seem like a big deal as long as you have a HPF/LPF sidechain. If I can get that far without having used it....
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on July 23, 2013, 03:12:45 pm

I think you would be shocked at the sound quality. I know I was, and the comparison was made between an LS9, X32, and my APB Pro House. Only the APB was close or an equal to the Expression, and now I find out that Soundcraft is using the same chip set that's being used in the Studer consoles in the Expression.

Hi Bob,

My experience is the opposite of yours. I think the X32 sounds as good, if not better, than the APB Pro House in the several situations where I've directly substituted one for the other, with no change in the rest of the PA.

You may have whatever opinion you wish, but people reading it should know that you are strongly biased in a direction, regardless of how that bias was created. I was a Soundcraft guy for 30+ years, love the product and/despite its imperfections, and love the Soundcraft people. There is no finer individual in the audio business than Tom Der, and Andy Brown is incredible, too. But there was no way I could afford a Vi-anything, and the X32 came along with the right features, the right support, and the right sound at the right time.

From what I've read about the Expression, I wish it had come out earlier, but it also sounds like it's not the equal of the X32 feature-wise. I'm glad it uses the same parts as higher-end consoles and am happy you have found a digital console you can advocate.

But the X32 *does not* have "low quality sound" by any measurement or unbiased listening. Something was set wrong if it sounds terrible.

Time will tell how well it holds up, as it will for all these low cost digital boards. But, really, do you expect any of the digital consoles at whatever price to be cutting edge for 10 years? I expect them ALL to follow the computer model rather than the analog console model, and would rather be replacing $3k objects every 5 years than $100k objects.

FWIW.
Dan
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: David Parker on July 23, 2013, 03:35:06 pm
Hmmmm... seems like a case where you could put the mixer backstage and mix on the dreaded $%&#) iPad.
there is no backstage. Or sidestage. these places are tiny and they use every square inch of real estate for tables. One of them had the stage in a corner, with a restaurant type booth adjoining the stage on one side, and a door on the other. These tiny clubs are some of the best paying in Houston, because they are always packed.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Jason Lucas on July 23, 2013, 03:55:03 pm
Never used Yamaha CL or Midas Pro. I suppose I knew about Avid, and of course the Digico I mentioned. I suppose the LS9/M7 have the ducker. Seems like a pretty pro class feature from, with the exception of Roland (which I guess you use) and the X32. Anybody else use this much? I can see how in a house of worship scenario with repeating shows every week it might be useful, but for normal use it doesn't seem like a big deal as long as you have a HPF/LPF sidechain. If I can get that far without having used it....

Well, like I said I can get by with a Soundcraft M8 and cheap little multi effects unit just fine. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate nifty features like side chain/key inputs.

The lack of that feature would not keep me from choosing a console, but the inclusion of it might cause me to pick one over another.

For me it mostly comes down to the flexibility of the routing, and what options I have for processing. The more flexible it is and the more options I have, the better.

For my church all we really need is a 32+ channel mixer with a 3-4 band EQ, phantom power, at least 10 AUXes (8 pre-fader, 2 post, or even better switchable post/pre), LCR support (or LR+mono), and at least four comps.

Anything more would just be "nice to have". With some features being really nice to have (comps for each channel, gates/expanders, 4 band parametric, etc).
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: James A. Griffin on July 23, 2013, 03:59:35 pm
there is no backstage. Or sidestage. these places are tiny and they use every square inch of real estate for tables. One of them had the stage in a corner, with a restaurant type booth adjoining the stage on one side, and a door on the other. These tiny clubs are some of the best paying in Houston, because they are always packed.

X32 Compact or X32 Rack
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 23, 2013, 05:15:17 pm
Hi Bob,

My experience is the opposite of yours. I think the X32 sounds as good, if not better, than the APB Pro House in the several situations where I've directly substituted one for the other, with no change in the rest of the PA.

You may have whatever opinion you wish, but people reading it should know that you are strongly biased in a direction, regardless of how that bias was created. I was a Soundcraft guy for 30+ years, love the product and/despite its imperfections, and love the Soundcraft people. There is no finer individual in the audio business than Tom Der, and Andy Brown is incredible, too. But there was no way I could afford a Vi-anything, and the X32 came along with the right features, the right support, and the right sound at the right time.

From what I've read about the Expression, I wish it had come out earlier, but it also sounds like it's not the equal of the X32 feature-wise. I'm glad it uses the same parts as higher-end consoles and am happy you have found a digital console you can advocate.

But the X32 *does not* have "low quality sound" by any measurement or unbiased listening. Something was set wrong if it sounds terrible.

Time will tell how well it holds up, as it will for all these low cost digital boards. But, really, do you expect any of the digital consoles at whatever price to be cutting edge for 10 years? I expect them ALL to follow the computer model rather than the analog console model, and would rather be replacing $3k objects every 5 years than $100k objects.

FWIW.
Dan

Thanks Dan. 

Yes these low priced consoles are becoming commodities.   

Regarding "acceptability", a brief tale:

The first time I saw an M7, the first thing I said was "this is the end of PM4Ks and racks full of 990s, dbx comps and gates, and Klark EQs for touring openers" (paraphrasing of course).   

Aside from the obvious benefits, the old setup consumed at least an entire row in the truck.  M7 changed that as well.  Plus, the truck got 500 pounds or more lighter.

It's entirely possible X32 will now fill that role for some period of time.   The economics drives it: the openers get what they get for the most part, unless they're willing to pay (if they even have an option). 

Acceptability in the trenches? It's almost a no-brainer.  Something else will be along in due course, however.

For regional providers, I can see many shops replacing LS9s with X32.  There are plenty of gigs not needing to meet a rider these are perfect for.  The stage box / AES50 combination is very appealing as well.

This is an interesting time in the digi-desk market.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 23, 2013, 06:19:43 pm

Dan,

My intent is not to trash the X32. It's one of Uli's few products that appears to have been designed well, and built well. My opinions are based on over two (2) years of critical looking, listening, and using. Am I biased? Not really because I'm well aware of the fact there are many better desks than an Expression feature wise, just not sound wise at this level.
 
I'm not sure I could agree with your assessment of the APB vs. X32 sound quality under any circumstance. However, if that is the result of your listening test then so be it.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 23, 2013, 06:57:33 pm

Dan,

My intent is not to trash the X32. It's one of Uli's few products that appears to have been designed well, and built well. My opinions are based on over two (2) years of critical looking, listening, and using. Am I biased? Not really because I'm well aware of the fact there are many better desks than an Expression feature wise, just not sound wise at this level.
 
I'm not sure I could agree with your assessment of the APB vs. X32 sound quality under any circumstance. However, if that is the result of your listening test then so be it.

Bob - you quoted the wrong post. 
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 23, 2013, 10:18:35 pm
Fixed it.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 23, 2013, 10:23:54 pm
Dan,

My intent is not to trash the X32. It's one of Uli's few products that appears to have been designed well, and built well. My opinions are based on over two (2) years of critical looking, listening, and using. Am I biased? Not really because I'm well aware of the fact there are many better desks than an Expression feature wise, just not sound wise at this level.
 
I'm not sure I could agree with your assessment of the APB vs. X32 sound quality under any circumstance. However, if that is the result of your listening test then so be it.

Bob, either in the PSW or SFN Basement I posted a pic of "FOH du jour" that featured an X32 among the AVID Venue and DiGiCo SD10.  All consoles fed the PA directly (drive was physically repatched) and as much as I wanted to find something sonically wrong with the X32, I couldn't.

And hey, I'm in Beantown.  You check your PMs?
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 24, 2013, 12:50:58 am
I saw that picture. PM sent.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 24, 2013, 10:07:57 am
The claims of huge sonic differences between value and premium mixers has been overstated for a while (I remember when they really were different). Modern solid state electronics generally deliver low distortion, low noise, and ruler flat frequency response, relatively inexpensively.

There are still differences but more in features (like service) and ergonomic design (EQ voicing, control laws, ease of use, etc).

Note: speakers and microphones are harder to perfect and still sound different

===========

I have no idea about acceptability, but they appear to be on a good path without major obstacles. Of course no one expects the competition to just ignore them, so time will tell.

JR
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on July 24, 2013, 12:55:04 pm
The claims of huge sonic differences between value and premium mixers has been overstated for a while (I remember when they really were different). Modern solid state electronics generally deliver low distortion, low noise, and ruler flat frequency and phase response, relatively inexpensively.

There are still differences but more in features (like service) and ergonomic design (EQ voicing, control laws, ease of use, etc).

(emphasis added)

Hi JR,

This is what I was coming here to post this morning (adding phase to what you said), after thinking about why Bob's feelings about the sound of the mixers are radically different than my feelings, and wondering what we are listening to once we get past the things you listed.

FWIW, I listen and do my mixes, for the most part, with not very radical EQ activity. IMO, there is a case to be made that the X32 EQ is not up to the standard set by the best, particularly if you use the default settings.

When I had a listening party for my crew to familiarize them with the consoles for the first time before a big festival we do, none of us could hear big changes in channel EQ when using the PEQ setting, which is standard bell-curve Parametric EQ with smooth skirts integrating back into flat.

However, we could clearly hear it in VEQ setting, which is Vintage EQ and has skirts that behave in most unlady-like way, going up and down as the curve integrates back into flat.

Behringer designed it to be more like "traditional British EQ", and although it looks weird, it sounds better to our ears, so all our consoles are set with VEQ on channels, and PEQ on outputs.

Separately, I don't feel that the narrowest of the PEQ settings is quite narrow enough, and doesn't allow for the kind of surgical frequency removal that I'm accustomed to on other devices.

When using the console as a standalone system controller, that is a limitation. However, I'm hopeful that this and other current limitations are addressed in the next 2.0 firmware update, which is long promised.

As with any real world object, and especially one that is so cheap for as many features as it has, there are other limitations and shortcomings with the X32, but as an overall value, and to specifically answer the OP's question, it is extraordinary in its features and usability when you become familiar with it. Familiarity took me a while, but other users tell me they just jumped right in with little difficulty.

Thanks,
Dan
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tim Padrick on August 05, 2013, 02:37:24 am
IMHO, gates w/o sidechain EQ are nearly useless (as are some that have it).

If a comp has it available, I'll certainly use it.  If the comp is pre-EQ, ya gotta compensate for mic proximity effect.  And as most singers get louder and thinner as they go up the scale, that needs to be compensated for as well.  So two bands of sidechain EQ are what I really want.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on August 05, 2013, 11:13:17 am
Bob, either in the PSW or SFN Basement I posted a pic of "FOH du jour" that featured an X32 among the AVID Venue and DiGiCo SD10.  All consoles fed the PA directly (drive was physically repatched) and as much as I wanted to find something sonically wrong with the X32, I couldn't.

And hey, I'm in Beantown.  You check your PMs?

We just used an X32 in monitor world on a very large festival with all national acts.  It sounded excellent.  It could have been any console available and we wouldn't have been able to tell.  I think that if someone is hearing a difference in the latest consoles that it is either stuff like eq algorithms or fx that they are hearing and not the basic console/preamps, etc. or they need to get their heads examined.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Randall Hyde on August 05, 2013, 04:39:16 pm
There are a number of features I use whenever I have access to them (usually only in the studio) that a lot of lower priced digital mixers don't have, such as:

  • 4 band fully parametric EQ
  • Side-chain input on compressors and gates/expanders (with high and low pass filters)
  • Compressors on buses (admittedly, most digital mixers do actually have this)
  • Ability to route input channels to AUX buses, pre-processing (or at least post HPF, pre-dynamics, pre-EQ)
  • Ability to route channel direct outputs, pre-processing (or at least post HPF, pre-dynamics, pre-EQ)
  • Ability to set an insert point pre or post EQ

The only digital mixer out there that has all of these features under $5k is the X32.

Well, SAC does this too. And with decent preamps it sounds really good and you can put together a system for under $5K (go as low as you want based on the components you choose). However, SAC has its own issues... (e.g., learning curve, poor control surface support, needs a better manual, etc.)
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Jason Lucas on August 05, 2013, 05:27:48 pm
Well, SAC does this too. And with decent preamps it sounds really good and you can put together a system for under $5K (go as low as you want based on the components you choose). However, SAC has its own issues... (e.g., learning curve, poor control surface support, needs a better manual, etc.)
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

I have a number of reasons why I wouldn't use SAC for anything but a personal rig.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tommy Peel on August 05, 2013, 05:44:49 pm
Slightly related to this, I was reading the reviews for the newly released Mainstage 3; one reviewer said he was running an entire band 16 channel mixer in Mainstage using OSCTouch to mix with an iPad. Not sure I'd trust it that much but it's an interesting idea he apparently wasn't having any trouble with it.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Randall Hyde on August 05, 2013, 06:24:00 pm
I have a number of reasons why I wouldn't use SAC for anything but a personal rig.

And I could probably agree with every one of them :)
Seriously, though, SAC works great for the "owner/operator sound company"
God help you if you have to hire (and train) sound engineers or deal with guest/band engineers.

One of SAC's biggest advantages, its modular design, is also one of its biggest weaknesses. While you can easily build a SAC system in stages (16 channels today, 32 tomorrow, 64 next month...) it also opens up a whole new world of things that can go wrong (such as TOS-Link cables coming unplugged). You almost have to have a computer administrator background to use SAC. Granted, some of the newer digital boards require a bit of computer expertise, but SAC is way beyond all of that.

I've been using SAC for over two years; I'd probably pick it over an X32 (no name recognition is better than bad name recognition) but given the variety of "under $10,000" consoles today, I'd be hard pressed to purchase SAC today unless I was going all out and needed it to be as cheap as possible (e.g., 64-72 input channels, 32-64 output channels. With decent preamps [Focusrite] and spares, this is easily way under $10,000).

I currently have a 24-channel "B" rig based on SAC and a 32-channel "A" rig based on SAC. Next year (once the bugs get worked out) I'm probably going to replace my "B" SAC rig with a QU-16 (which has 22 channels when you count the 3 stereo channels; perfect for my B rig as I have a dual CD player and an iPod cable always attached) and I'll coalesce the two SAC rigs into a single 56-channel rig.

Someday, I'd love to replace the A SAC rig with something along the lines of a GLD-112 or even an iLive desk. The only hiccough is the fact that I need to buy two control surfaces for FOH and monitors (SAC is *real* cheap in this regard, as a sub-$500 PC works great for the remote).

As I said, I'm not willing to recommend SAC to anyone other than the small owner/operator soundco these days where "bang for the buck" is the top concern. The sub-$10,000 consoles are far more limiting than SAC, but they're dead easy to set up and use (even considering the learning curve on these new consoles) and probably more robust than SAC. Also, you get a decent control surface with most of them (Presounus being the exception).
Cheers,
Randy Hyde


Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Alec Spence on August 05, 2013, 07:08:17 pm
* Ability to route input channels to AUX buses, pre-processing (or at least post HPF, pre-dynamics, pre-EQ)
The only digital mixer out there that has all of these features under $5k is the X32.
The X32 won't do a pre-dynamics aux send.  Nor will any of the "budget" mixers, other than the GLD and (I think) the QU-16.  Boo!
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Jason Lucas on August 05, 2013, 07:19:10 pm
The X32 won't do a pre-dynamics aux send.  Nor will any of the "budget" mixers, other than the GLD and (I think) the QU-16.  Boo!

Yes, you're technically correct since I did use the word dynamics.

It does, however, have the ability to send a channel to an AUX pre-compressor and pre-EQ, which for me is just as good most of the time. Even Midas consoles can't do that, to my knowledge.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Rob Spence on August 05, 2013, 07:23:45 pm
The X32 won't do a pre-dynamics aux send.  Nor will any of the "budget" mixers, other than the GLD and (I think) the QU-16.  Boo!

The beauty of digital desks is having lots of strip available (often many more than # of inputs) and soft patching important (for me, vocals mostly) to a second strip that I use for monitors. Not only do you have the ability to ignore the dynamics if you want but you have another EQ section for the monitor mix. I set the monitor strips to post fader.
On my LS9-32 (which is for sale) I use the 6-8 strips at the right end of the surface for dedicated monitor strips soft patched from the original inputs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Rob Spence on August 05, 2013, 07:25:32 pm
Yes, you're technically correct since I did use the word dynamics.

It does, however, have the ability to send a channel to an AUX pre-compressor and pre-EQ, which for me is just as good most of the time. Even Midas consoles can't do that, to my knowledge.

Most of the big boy desks don't offer pre-dynamic aux sends because they are most often used with dedicated monitor desks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Loren Aguey on August 07, 2013, 12:46:30 pm
Compared to using a real graphic EQ or a virtual one on higher end digital desks, it's actually not so great as you can only access 6 bands at a time on the surface using a rotary encoder to select which group of 6, or use all rotary encoders to make changes. It's actually very cumbersome.

?? You have access to 8 bands of graphic EQ and can assign them to faders just like an M7 or 5D. And you can assign a UDK to jump to that EQ. I don't see how that's any slower and to me it's quicker than some of the big boy desks. For example switching which 8 bands of EQ on a PM5D requires using a mouse or moving the cursor around with the arrow buttons, as opposed to quickly being able to scroll through which ever bands you want with a single encoder.

And the scribble strip programming on the fly in a festival style situation is actually terrible. With a computer connected to the board, EQ changes are much faster than with the surface because you can access the entire graphic with the mouse instantly instead of futzing with encoders and selecting groups of bands. And with the computer, scribble strip entry takes a couple of seconds per channel instead of a minute+. It may not seem like big deal if you never change your board setup. But if you're doing a bunch of bands and don't have time to pre-program everything, it's pretty big pain. For that reason, one local owner of an X32 has gone back to using board tape and SharpieŽ to label channels. It shouldn't be that way. My feature request posted in another thread on SFN is ability to connect a keyboard and mouse. It would make things a lot easier than the menu navigation sans connected computer. It probably won't happen though. I realize the board is inexpensive and their will be compromises. One of those compromises in my experience is that you really need a $500+ computer or tablet connected to it in order to gain basic efficiency you would get with analog gear.

With respect Greg, I feel like the PITA factor here is being exaggerated. Regarding scribble strips, yes in a festival situation it could be a little slower, but again, if I'm comparing to something like labelling channels on a PM5D then I think it's still faster and you have more characters available. But yes, slower than perhaps a Venue series desk. However, it does NOT take a full minute + to label one scribble strip, especially since there's a healthy collection of pre written labels for most standard band inputs, that require only a quick scroll and a button push.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Uwe Riemer on August 07, 2013, 03:01:18 pm
What do you guys think about the X32 as far as club land acceptability goes? Would it be worth it to step up to the Soundcraft Expression? They are not too far apart in price, unless you are going for the digi snake. THen the price difference is much greater.


A few short years ago we saw the GL2400 in this role. Nobody really liked it, but everybody would accept it and do the gig. Is the X32 gonna fill that spot?

Two small stories:

The local live club ( 450 cap ) just around the corner recently had a band from USA with
a very explicit rider stating amongst other things: NO MACKIE OR BEHRINGER GEAR

their BE took the X32 without hesitation, actually he was familiar with it already.

And some weeks ago the same club had a german band, small offspring of a national act, with their usual BE, a guy with reputation in germany.
After the concert this guy complained heavily, that this board does not allow two simultanious usable insert points per channel.


So yes, I think the X32 is perfectly acceptable for Lounge level

Uwe

 
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 07, 2013, 03:02:41 pm
Greg,
Quick point. On the Soundcraft boards the graphic EQ is a BSS. Selecting the channel, mix, aux, or output and then pressing the hi or low EQ button jumps you to layer 3 and the high or low half of the EQ for that output. You now have 14 faders and a graphic display of the EQ for each half (upper/lower) section of the EQ. This happens in a second, is very easy to use, and the EQ is as good as it get's. Of course the faders will return to your settings when the particular EQ is chosen, and the EQ can be pulled in or out and made flat by pressing a single button.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: George Dougherty on August 08, 2013, 10:02:04 pm
With respect Greg, I feel like the PITA factor here is being exaggerated. Regarding scribble strips, yes in a festival situation it could be a little slower, but again, if I'm comparing to something like labelling channels on a PM5D then I think it's still faster and you have more characters available. But yes, slower than perhaps a Venue series desk. However, it does NOT take a full minute + to label one scribble strip, especially since there's a healthy collection of pre written labels for most standard band inputs, that require only a quick scroll and a button push.

As cheap as it is, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider an ipad a must have accessory for the desk.  On the ipad, channel labelling is type and press enter which advances to the next channel.  I'd love to see the x32 edit app do the same, but I prefer the mobility of the ipad anyway.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Tommy Peel on August 09, 2013, 02:06:31 am
As cheap as it is, I don't think it's unreasonable to consider an ipad a must have accessory for the desk.  On the ipad, channel labelling is type and press enter which advances to the next channel.  I'd love to see the x32 edit app do the same, but I prefer the mobility of the ipad anyway.

I saw a post over in SF where a guy had a pair of iPads mounted on some kind of stands with an x32. Looked like a nice setup; I think it's over near the end of the (in)famous x32 thread.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Stuart Miller on August 09, 2013, 04:25:17 am
What do you guys think about the X32 as far as club land acceptability goes? Would it be worth it to step up to the Soundcraft Expression? They are not too far apart in price, unless you are going for the digi snake. THen the price difference is much greater.


A few short years ago we saw the GL2400 in this role. Nobody really liked it, but everybody would accept it and do the gig. Is the X32 gonna fill that spot?

Two weeks ago I saw the David Bromberg band in concert (Hanover, PA). The X32 was the FOH console (not sure about monitors). Even though I still distrust Behringer (from a quality standpoint) I have to admit the sound quality from the X32 was very good (to my ears); except for a shrill high frequency associated with the fiddle player (though that could have been a setting issue on the console rather than a sound quality issue, I couldn't tell).

First time I'd seen the X32 console up close and was surprised how large it was. For some reason I imagined it to be smaller physically.

I'm considering upgrading my (APB House) console to a digital console but am gun-shy to choose the X32 (even though many people seem to be having good luck with it).

Stu
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Samuel Rees on August 09, 2013, 12:05:53 pm
Goin digital from APB? Deja vu - Bob L recently made that very transition. Might be interesting for you to talk to him!
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 10, 2013, 05:30:08 am
Stuart,
Send me a PM with questions regarding a comparison of the Pro House, X32, Expression, LS9, etc.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Adam Cooke on August 16, 2013, 11:02:08 pm
Yes, you're technically correct since I did use the word dynamics.

It does, however, have the ability to send a channel to an AUX pre-compressor and pre-EQ, which for me is just as good most of the time. Even Midas consoles can't do that, to my knowledge.


The Presonus mixers also can select between aux send pickoffs that are pre or post compressor/EQ. They're both post exp/gate, however... so neither is entirely pre-dynamics.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 17, 2013, 03:07:28 am
I love the X32 it sounds far far better than a LS9.  I have used mine for Monitors on Blue Oyster Cult, Gin Blossoms, and Keith Anderson in the last couple of weeks with no complaints. Also had a guy comment tonight about how excellent is IEM's sounded though it.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Greg_Cameron on August 17, 2013, 12:04:23 pm
With respect Greg, I feel like the PITA factor here is being exaggerated. Regarding scribble strips, yes in a festival situation it could be a little slower, but again, if I'm comparing to something like labelling channels on a PM5D then I think it's still faster and you have more characters available. But yes, slower than perhaps a Venue series desk. However, it does NOT take a full minute + to label one scribble strip, especially since there's a healthy collection of pre written labels for most standard band inputs, that require only a quick scroll and a button push.

A lot of BEs like to label channels strips with names of various band members as well as other more detailed descriptions of inputs. In that respect, the scribble strip entry using the desk only is very inefficient. That's mainly what I'm alluding to. With a keyboard, it takes a few seconds. Without, it takes much, much longer. Sure, if you're using just preset names it's not terrible. But I for one guess I've gotten spoiled by the Venue. It's really "nice" to have keyboard entry and mouse control. Sure, I'm being anal and nitpicky. I feel if you're going to try and eliminate board tape, the method of replacement should be nearly as fast to implement, not less so.

Same with EQ. It's my one remaining gripe with digital consoles - some things that were fast and easy to do with analog desks and outboard gear are slower on digital desks. Not having access to most or all of the graphic EQ bands at once is pain. It's a step back from the days of "reach for the DN360". I realize that there are inherent compromises. But It seems they should have chosen to use the 16 channel faders for the graphic control instead. I prefer having the entire EQ up on the X32 Edit app instead.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 17, 2013, 12:47:38 pm
A lot of BEs like to label channels strips with names of various band members as well as other more detailed descriptions of inputs. In that respect, the scribble strip entry using the desk only is very inefficient. That's mainly what I'm alluding to. With a keyboard, it takes a few seconds. Without, it takes much, much longer. Sure, if you're using just preset names it's not terrible. But I for one guess I've gotten spoiled by the Venue. It's really "nice" to have keyboard entry and mouse control. Sure, I'm being anal and nitpicky. I feel if you're going to try and eliminate board tape, the method of replacement should be nearly as fast to implement, not less so.

Same with EQ. It's my one remaining gripe with digital consoles - some things that were fast and easy to do with analog desks and outboard gear are slower on digital desks. Not having access to most or all of the graphic EQ bands at once is pain. It's a step back from the days of "reach for the DN360". I realize that there are inherent compromises. But It seems they should have chosen to use the 16 channel faders for the graphic control instead. I prefer having the entire EQ up on the X32 Edit app instead.
I believe that mixing with the aid of a PC or tablet is going to become much more the norm in the future.  As you point out, using the X32 Edit program, creating scribble strip labels is actually pretty quick and painless.  I also like having the names of people on the strips vs. a generic label.

Having dedicated encoders for each channel and each parameter (like an analog board) would likely always be easier to understand and navigate; however, you quickly run out of real estate. 

I think that the X32 in specific handles the graphic eq poorly.  The new Qu-16 can put 16 frequencies at a time on the faders which is pretty nice. 

Still, I think it is possible that in the future, both the PC and tablet interface is going to allow much more flexibility with controls and meters.  The problem of making the most of the work flow is still being ironed out IMHO.  Digital mixer makers are struggling with how to provide all that flexibility without making the mixer very difficult to use.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on August 17, 2013, 12:54:54 pm
A lot of BEs like to label channels strips with names of various band members as well as other more detailed descriptions of inputs. In that respect, the scribble strip entry using the desk only is very inefficient. That's mainly what I'm alluding to. With a keyboard, it takes a few seconds. Without, it takes much, much longer. Sure, if you're using just preset names it's not terrible. But I for one guess I've gotten spoiled by the Venue. It's really "nice" to have keyboard entry and mouse control. Sure, I'm being anal and nitpicky. I feel if you're going to try and eliminate board tape, the method of replacement should be nearly as fast to implement, not less so.

Same with EQ. It's my one remaining gripe with digital consoles - some things that were fast and easy to do with analog desks and outboard gear are slower on digital desks. Not having access to most or all of the graphic EQ bands at once is pain. It's a step back from the days of "reach for the DN360". I realize that there are inherent compromises. But It seems they should have chosen to use the 16 channel faders for the graphic control instead. I prefer having the entire EQ up on the X32 Edit app instead.

I predict that in the future there will be an evolution to separate the control surface from the processing hardware. You could then use whatever interface you are willing to pay for (collectively, since control surfaces need market support you need other like minded customers). I suspect in the future we (old guys like me) will not even recognize the popular interfaces (I'm squeezing your head).  8)

JR
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 17, 2013, 01:54:07 pm
I predict that in the future there will be an evolution to separate the control surface from the processing hardware. You could then use whatever interface you are willing to pay for (collectively, since control surfaces need market support you need other like minded customers). I suspect in the future we (old guys like me) will not even recognize the popular interfaces (I'm squeezing your head).  8)

JR
I agree.  All the processing will be in the "mixer" and the control interface(s) will be what ever you most like from a variety of vendors.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on August 17, 2013, 02:08:37 pm
I predict that in the future there will be an evolution to separate the control surface from the processing hardware. ...

I agree.  The studio world has been migrating in this direction for a decade.  Some of the control surfaces are quite sophisticated, and expensive. Some are simple, and cheap.  Both can control the same hardware (actually software).
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 17, 2013, 08:17:54 pm
A lot of BEs like to label channels strips with names of various band members as well as other more detailed descriptions of inputs. In that respect, the scribble strip entry using the desk only is very inefficient. That's mainly what I'm alluding to. With a keyboard, it takes a few seconds. Without, it takes much, much longer. Sure, if you're using just preset names it's not terrible. But I for one guess I've gotten spoiled by the Venue. It's really "nice" to have keyboard entry and mouse control. Sure, I'm being anal and nitpicky. I feel if you're going to try and eliminate board tape, the method of replacement should be nearly as fast to implement, not less so.

Same with EQ. It's my one remaining gripe with digital consoles - some things that were fast and easy to do with analog desks and outboard gear are slower on digital desks. Not having access to most or all of the graphic EQ bands at once is pain. It's a step back from the days of "reach for the DN360". I realize that there are inherent compromises. But It seems they should have chosen to use the 16 channel faders for the graphic control instead. I prefer having the entire EQ up on the X32 Edit app instead.
Greg,
 
These were two of the reasons I chose the Expression. Scribble strips are not a deal breaker for me, and the Expression allows direct access to the GEQ with the single push of a button, or two actually. The upper and lower halves of the EQ are each assigned 14 faders automatically. The fader strips for the EQ then glow red and the EQ itself shows in the color display as you adjust it. Almost all of the functions for the Expression work in a similar manner.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Brian Wynn on August 19, 2013, 02:52:24 am
Greg,
 
These were two of the reasons I chose the Expression. Scribble strips are not a deal breaker for me, and the Expression allows direct access to the GEQ with the single push of a button, or two actually. The upper and lower halves of the EQ are each assigned 14 faders automatically. The fader strips for the EQ then glow red and the EQ itself shows in the color display as you adjust it. Almost all of the functions for the Expression work in a similar manner.
UDK assign on the X32 and it's a one button push to the EQ.  It also comes up on the faders, hell the scribble strips even give you the freq of the band your on.  Granted you can only see 8 bands at once on the faders.  But its a easy knob turn to change selection.  I never understood why Soundcraft only put 30 input faders on the 32 channel expression????  WTF
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Samuel Rees on August 19, 2013, 01:29:43 pm
I like my Si Compact... But its obviously because they have 8 channel fader banks coming out of the factory!
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 19, 2013, 02:34:08 pm
UDK assign on the X32 and it's a one button push to the EQ.  It also comes up on the faders, hell the scribble strips even give you the freq of the band your on.  Granted you can only see 8 bands at once on the faders.  But its a easy knob turn to change selection.  I never understood why Soundcraft only put 30 input faders on the 32 channel expression? ???  WTF

The proprietary Studer designed DSP addresses in blocks of 14, or so I was told. Having four (4) easy to access single button fully assignable layers with fader glow turns this into a non issue and moot subject very quickly. But I know where you're coming from. The weird channel counts on other boards, A&H for example, used to drive me crazy. Not the same thing when working with expandable digital layers. :D 
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Alec Spence on August 19, 2013, 02:39:12 pm
I never understood why Soundcraft only put 30 input faders on the 32 channel expression????  WTF

Not to mention why the 32 channel Expression will control only 14 band of GEQ at a time when it should be able to do all 28 (or even 30, if the GEQ went that far). I know it let's one size of firmware fit all, but it's barking mad, and a real missed opportunity, in my view!
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Samuel Rees on August 19, 2013, 03:07:45 pm
I agree generally, but still find it a little annoying. I can do 48 inputs on 12 faders no problem, but have only two inputs on the second layer is a bit silly. Obviously not silly enough to prevent me from buying it, though.

The DSP explanation doesn't really make sense to me, all their other desks have blocks of 8 faders plus singles for masters. What makes this different? Perhaps there is another explanation, but the 8 faders from factory explanation makes the most sense to me.

Sometimes when I use all 24 inputs, I assign FX and BG music to layers A and B on slots 18-24, so that they stay the same when paging and an entire block of 8 preamps go the layer B. it's actually easier with more inputs on the second page, it's the 'only 2' that is weird. One ends up being talkback, then the other is super lonely.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Samuel Rees on August 19, 2013, 03:19:22 pm
Not to mention why the 32 channel Expression will control only 14 band of GEQ at a time when it should be able to do all 28 (or even 30, if the GEQ went that far). I know it let's one size of firmware fit all, but it's barking mad, and a real missed opportunity, in my view!

Actually, that doesn't bother me a bit for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Per Sovik on August 19, 2013, 03:33:37 pm
Actually, that doesn't bother me a bit for whatever reason.

I believe there are a lot of sound guys with OCGEQD out there that just have to have their daily fix of at least 28 faders nicely displaying their favourite EQ setting  ;)
Title: Re: Is the X32 gonna become "acceptable" at the lounge level?
Post by: Bob Leonard on August 20, 2013, 12:19:09 am
I agree generally, but still find it a little annoying. I can do 48 inputs on 12 faders no problem, but have only two inputs on the second layer is a bit silly. Obviously not silly enough to prevent me from buying it, though.

The DSP explanation doesn't really make sense to me, all their other desks have blocks of 8 faders plus singles for masters. What makes this different? Perhaps there is another explanation, but the 8 faders from factory explanation makes the most sense to me.

Sometimes when I use all 24 inputs, I assign FX and BG music to layers A and B on slots 18-24, so that they stay the same when paging and an entire block of 8 preamps go the layer B. it's actually easier with more inputs on the second page, it's the 'only 2' that is weird. One ends up being talkback, then the other is super lonely.

They make for a nice stereo channel;, or in my case lead and rhythm guitar.