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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: dave celko on April 21, 2013, 11:59:40 pm

Title: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on April 21, 2013, 11:59:40 pm
as some of u may have read from my post in the lounge i originally bought 2 seismic audio enforcer 2's which aparently arent real good or enough.
i was also mistaken on the room size its not 3,000 sq ft its closer to 2,300.
we currently hold 2 dance/partys a month and the main music played is techno/dubstep/hiphop.
i would love to build my own enclosures and load them with good drivers, but im stuck on deciding which way i should go as far as folded horn/bass reflex/bandpass etc style enclosures

any feedback or suggestions + pros and cons on each style of enclosure will be greatly apreciated.

size and wieghts of enclosures are of no concern as this will be a permanent install
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on April 22, 2013, 08:50:28 am
What are the actual dimensions of the room.  That will affect the answers that you get.
Title: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Samuel Rees on April 22, 2013, 12:21:12 pm
What is your motivation for not buying something off the shelf? All good, just wondering - DIY spirit, or trying to save money?
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on April 22, 2013, 03:48:29 pm
What is your motivation for not buying something off the shelf? All good, just wondering - DIY spirit, or trying to save money?

ill get u exact room measurments later today

i love building my own stuff,saving money is just an added bonus
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 22, 2013, 07:28:02 pm
ill get u exact room measurments later today

i love building my own stuff,saving money is just an added bonus
As long as it is done right.

And there is a good bit to doing it right-and not just making sound.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 23, 2013, 07:34:09 am
as some of u may have read from my post in the lounge i originally bought 2 seismic audio enforcer 2's which aparently arent real good or enough.
i was also mistaken on the room size its not 3,000 sq ft its closer to 2,300.
we currently hold 2 dance/partys a month and the main music played is techno/dubstep/hiphop.
i would love to build my own enclosures and load them with good drivers, but im stuck on deciding which way i should go as far as folded horn/bass reflex/bandpass etc style enclosures

any feedback or suggestions + pros and cons on each style of enclosure will be greatly apreciated.

size and wieghts of enclosures are of no concern as this will be a permanent install
"Best" means may different things.

YOU and ONLY YOU have to start to put some parameters on what YOU are willing to deal with in YOUR application.

THe size of the room has nothing to do with it.  What IS important are the following:  What is the largest size YOU are willing to move around?  What about weight?is that an issue?  Can you deal with 300+ lb cabinets?

By your style of music-we know you want low and loud.   That does not come cheap.  What is YOUR budget?  for complete cabinets or materials if you DIY?

When considering budget-you ALSO have to include amplifiers.  If you have small amps-then you should go with horn loaded cabinets-but that means large and heavy (in order to get deep bass).

If you have have big amps-then you can go with front loaded (generally smaller and lighter), but you will need more of them (AND amplifiers) to get as loud.

Have you considered AC power for the amps?  How much do you have available?  That will also greatly affect how much sound you can get before tripping breakers.

You HAVE to clearly define the target-BEFORE you start jumping in all directions.  What do YOU have, that you can deal with?

It doesn't matter what "the best" is-if you can't afford it or move it around.  What is best for one person in an application is totally wrong for another.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 23, 2013, 04:07:32 pm
"Best" means may different things.

YOU and ONLY YOU have to start to put some parameters on what YOU are willing to deal with in YOUR application.

THe size of the room has nothing to do with it.  What IS important are the following:  What is the largest size YOU are willing to move around?  What about weight?is that an issue?  Can you deal with 300+ lb cabinets?

By your style of music-we know you want low and loud.   That does not come cheap.  What is YOUR budget?  for complete cabinets or materials if you DIY?

When considering budget-you ALSO have to include amplifiers.  If you have small amps-then you should go with horn loaded cabinets-but that means large and heavy (in order to get deep bass).

If you have have big amps-then you can go with front loaded (generally smaller and lighter), but you will need more of them (AND amplifiers) to get as loud.

Have you considered AC power for the amps?  How much do you have available?  That will also greatly affect how much sound you can get before tripping breakers.

You HAVE to clearly define the target-BEFORE you start jumping in all directions.  What do YOU have, that you can deal with?

It doesn't matter what "the best" is-if you can't afford it or move it around.  What is best for one person in an application is totally wrong for another.

power is not an issue i have 4 20 amp and 2 30 amp circuts available right now along with a bunch of 15 amp circuts.

budget is a lil small right now as i just purchased an ab intl 1100a and 2 600a amps

i dont care about size or wieght as once the enclosures are installed they wont be moved 

if i went with horn loaded cabs how many would we be talking versus front loaded cabs?

i do have a question on the horns though from what ive been reading the bass doesnt really come alive until 20-40 ft from the front of the horn .Is this true?



if i budgeted say 300ish per driver how good of a driver could i get ? or do i need to spend more or less per driver.

what is the average cost of materials for the average horn cab?
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 23, 2013, 04:13:35 pm
specs on the 3 amps we just bought

the smaller 600a's
have 2 of theese now

    Two channel amplifier
    270w per channel @ 8 ohms
    425w per channel @ 4 ohms
    750w @ bridged mono @ 8 ohms
    2 1/4" phone jacks (unbalanced)
    Dual 5-way binding posts
    Passive cooling
    Weight 31 lbs

and the big one is the 1100a

    Two channel amplifier
    525wpc @ 8 ohms
    850wpc @ 4 ohms
    1100wpc @ 2 ohms
    1300w bridged mono at 8 ohms
    1700w bridged mono at 4 ohms
    "Logic Operated Gated Output" supply system
    Internal 2 speed cooling fan
    XLR / 1/4" input jacks
    3 Rack space
    "Soft Clip" speaker protection circuitry
    High current, fully complimentary output stages
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 23, 2013, 06:35:24 pm

if i went with horn loaded cabs how many would we be talking versus front loaded cabs?

i do have a question on the horns though from what ive been reading the bass doesnt really come alive until 20-40 ft from the front of the horn .Is this true?



if i budgeted say 300ish per driver how good of a driver could i get ? or do i need to spend more or less per driver.

what is the average cost of materials for the average horn cab?
It is not a simple matter of how many of one style vs another-but rather what type of design/drivers etc.

You need to compare ACTUAL specs-REAL -3dB points-REAL sensitivity etc.

The horn cabinets are going to be larger-and louder.

Where have you been reading that the bass out of a horn doesn't "come alive" till further away? And before you mention the size of the wavelength and how large it is-then be prepared to explain how you are able to get bass in your car or your headphones-which distances are very small when compared to the wavelength.

It is not so much the driver (especially in a horn) but rather how it is used.  The driver/horn relationship IS VERY CRITICAL- YOU CANNOT simply swap drivers or put a "better" driver in a horn and expect it to work better.

A lab sub will generally run around $1000 per cab (depending on how much you pay for your materials) if you do it right-real wood- finishing etc and you supply the labor for free.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 23, 2013, 08:53:52 pm
It is not a simple matter of how many of one style vs another-but rather what type of design/drivers etc.

You need to compare ACTUAL specs-REAL -3dB points-REAL sensitivity etc.

The horn cabinets are going to be larger-and louder.

Where have you been reading that the bass out of a horn doesn't "come alive" till further away? And before you mention the size of the wavelength and how large it is-then be prepared to explain how you are able to get bass in your car or your headphones-which distances are very small when compared to the wavelength.

It is not so much the driver (especially in a horn) but rather how it is used.  The driver/horn relationship IS VERY CRITICAL- YOU CANNOT simply swap drivers or put a "better" driver in a horn and expect it to work better.

A lab sub will generally run around $1000 per cab (depending on how much you pay for your materials) if you do it right-real wood- finishing etc and you supply the labor for free.

ur part about the being able to et bass in the car or headphones makes sense and clears up what i have been reading in certain places about horn's

any recommendation on a decent driver that has pre made plans for a horn enclosure, im not sure if i could come up with the dimensions and layout for a horn on my own as ive never done one , now on the other hand a bandpass or bass reflex im confident i could come up with my own based on speaker specs just like we do in the car audio world
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 23, 2013, 09:00:30 pm
ur part about the being able to et bass in the car or headphones makes sense and clears up what i have been reading in certain places about horn's

any recommendation on a decent driver that has pre made plans for a horn enclosure, im not sure if i could come up with the dimensions and layout for a horn on my own as ive never done one , now on the other hand a bandpass or bass reflex im confident i could come up with my own based on speaker specs just like we do in the car audio world

i wasnt going to ask about these but these would be cheaper then building my own aparently, though the price difference wouldnt be far apart or bad at all if the diy ones are better then these

but what are u guys thoughts on the
Cerwin-Vega EL-36C
and the
B-52 LX-18EV3 1000W Folded Subwoofer which is 200$'s cheaper then the cerwin vega
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 23, 2013, 09:01:09 pm
ur part about the being able to et bass in the car or headphones makes sense and clears up what i have been reading in certain places about horn's

any recommendation on a decent driver that has pre made plans for a horn enclosure, im not sure if i could come up with the dimensions and layout for a horn on my own as ive never done one , now on the other hand a bandpass or bass reflex im confident i could come up with my own based on speaker specs just like we do in the car audio world
The lab sub is well documented and used around here.   All sorts of plans-instructions etc.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 23, 2013, 09:02:22 pm
i wasnt going to ask about these but these would be cheaper then building my own aparently, though the price difference wouldnt be far apart or bad at all if the diy ones are better then these

but what are u guys thoughts on the
Cerwin-Vega EL-36C
and the
B-52 LX-18EV3 1000W Folded Subwoofer which is 200$'s cheaper then the cerwin vega
If you like "one note bass" then sure-------------------------

There is a reason cheap gear is cheap.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 24, 2013, 08:20:54 am
If you like "one note bass" then sure-------------------------

There is a reason cheap gear is cheap.
thanks thats all i needed to know
i tried to take a video with my new phone for u guys but the mic on it does a great job of killing all the low and high freq's so of course it sounds like crap.

my old phone on the other hand was much better and sounded much better on the audio so maybe ill try again with that one

what do u guys think about the cubo18?
(http://www.freespeakerplans.com/images/stories/Cubo%2018%20Measurements(1).png)

or any of these 2 other plans
http://www.freespeakerplans.com/plans/14-plans/basscab/12-mhb-4818
(http://www.freespeakerplans.com/images/stories/MHB-4818-resp.jpg)

http://www.freespeakerplans.com/plans/14-plans/basscab/20-mph-46
(http://www.freespeakerplans.com/images/stories/img1140v.jpg)
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: John Halliburton on April 24, 2013, 09:04:56 am
i wasnt going to ask about these but these would be cheaper then building my own aparently, though the price difference wouldnt be far apart or bad at all if the diy ones are better then these

but what are u guys thoughts on the
Cerwin-Vega EL-36C
and the
B-52 LX-18EV3 1000W Folded Subwoofer which is 200$'s cheaper then the cerwin vega

You are quite literally, in the same thread, comparing two of the cheapest with one of the best subwoofers on the market, even though the LabSub is technically a DIY project-it just happens to be an excellent design by one of the best designers/inventors in pro audio.

I'd most certainly build LabSubs, even if you only build them one at a time.  Since you say your not moving them once in place, why worry about size and weight, as long as it fits?

You will not be sorry with the performance.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: John Halliburton on April 24, 2013, 09:07:08 am
what do u guys think about the cubo18?
(http://www.freespeakerplans.com/images/stories/Cubo%2018%20Measurements(1).png)

It looks like a classic "one note" subwoofer.  Not a good thing.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 24, 2013, 09:15:57 am
You are quite literally, in the same thread, comparing two of the cheapest with one of the best subwoofers on the market, even though the LabSub is technically a DIY project-it just happens to be an excellent design by one of the best designers/inventors in pro audio.

I'd most certainly build LabSubs, even if you only build them one at a time.  Since you say your not moving them once in place, why worry about size and weight, as long as it fits?

You will not be sorry with the performance.

Best regards,

John
just wieghing my options is all, that and im missing one piece of vital equipment , a table saw, the lab sub looks like it has alot of cuts that i would really want a table saw for.

right now im limited to a circular saw/jigsaw and router , so while i could technically make all the required cuts  with what i have its not going to be as easy.so with that in mind im just checking options on other boxes/designs that may be easier for me to build with the tools i currently have
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 24, 2013, 12:02:07 pm
just wieghing my options is all, that and im missing one piece of vital equipment , a table saw, the lab sub looks like it has alot of cuts that i would really want a table saw for.

right now im limited to a circular saw/jigsaw and router , so while i could technically make all the required cuts  with what i have its not going to be as easy.so with that in mind im just checking options on other boxes/designs that may be easier for me to build with the tools i currently have
Not to be picky-but you have gone from "Best" to "what is easy" (with minimal tools). And the price points are all over the map.

As I said earlier you HAVE to define your target FIRST--------------------------------

Such as "what is the best design that goes to 40hz that I can build with minimal tools for $400.  But when talking budget-is that PER CABINET  or TOTAL?

What if 1 cabinet (that costs as much as 4 other ones) outperforms the other 4?  Which is better-do you care about the actual performance or how many cabinets you have?  Remember it will take more amplifiers to driver more cabinets.

So what you need to really ask is "I have x amount of dollars to spend -for amps and speakers and cables-and I need to be as loud as I can down to whatever REALISTIC freq you want".

NOW you can start to get some USABLE answers.  Anything else is just going to give confusing information-as if it hasn't gotten that way already-------------------------


There is no free lunch.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 24, 2013, 05:29:51 pm
Not to be picky-but you have gone from "Best" to "what is easy" (with minimal tools). And the price points are all over the map.

As I said earlier you HAVE to define your target FIRST--------------------------------

Such as "what is the best design that goes to 40hz that I can build with minimal tools for $400.  But when talking budget-is that PER CABINET  or TOTAL?

What if 1 cabinet (that costs as much as 4 other ones) outperforms the other 4?  Which is better-do you care about the actual performance or how many cabinets you have?  Remember it will take more amplifiers to driver more cabinets.

So what you need to really ask is "I have x amount of dollars to spend -for amps and speakers and cables-and I need to be as loud as I can down to whatever REALISTIC freq you want".

NOW you can start to get some USABLE answers.  Anything else is just going to give confusing information-as if it hasn't gotten that way already-------------------------


There is no free lunch.

to get a better idea of what i need i dug out my spl meter today, unhooked the mains and ran only the subs and atook readings of 102-104 peak db threw out most of the room depending n the type of music played. my meter has been sitting a long time so im unsure of how accurate it is at this time but atleast it gives me a baseline

tommorow my ab intl 1100z amp gets here and i will remeasure with the new amp to see were i stand ill be going form an amp thats around 350w rms to an amp thats 1700w rms bridged at 4 ohms so 850rms per cab instead of 350ish, so maybe that alone will get the output levels up enough i dont have to add anymore cabs
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 24, 2013, 06:41:02 pm
to get a better idea of what i need i dug out my spl meter today, unhooked the mains and ran only the subs and atook readings of 102-104 peak db threw out most of the room depending n the type of music played. my meter has been sitting a long time so im unsure of how accurate it is at this time but atleast it gives me a baseline

tommorow my ab intl 1100z amp gets here and i will remeasure with the new amp to see were i stand ill be going form an amp thats around 350w rms to an amp thats 1700w rms bridged at 4 ohms so 850rms per cab instead of 350ish, so maybe that alone will get the output levels up enough i dont have to add anymore cabs
Were you using A or C scale and fast or slow response?  There is no such thing as 102dB-it HAS to have other factors associated with it to have any meaning. 

All the 102 tells you is that the measurement is 102dB louder than something.  What is that something?  This is where simple numbers get you in trouble.

I assume that was with the amp at clip?  If not then what was the power level-how was it measured?

All of these "things" REALLY matter-IF you are going to try to make any kind of comparisom

DATA IS IMPORTANT-if you are going to convey any sort of technical information.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 24, 2013, 06:57:33 pm
Were you using A or C scale and fast or slow response?  There is no such thing as 102dB-it HAS to have other factors associated with it to have any meaning. 

All the 102 tells you is that the measurement is 102dB louder than something.  What is that something?  This is where simple numbers get you in trouble.

I assume that was with the amp at clip?  If not then what was the power level-how was it measured?

All of these "things" REALLY matter-IF you are going to try to make any kind of comparisom

DATA IS IMPORTANT-if you are going to convey any sort of technical information.

a scale  on fast
i kept the amp just below clipping it would just barley start to light up the clip led and i mean just start to light it

when u say that the measurement has to have other factors could u eleborate some more ?
the room was silent other then the subs , well except for some ratlles of the few windows in the room
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: John Halliburton on April 24, 2013, 07:20:00 pm
just wieghing my options is all, that and im missing one piece of vital equipment , a table saw, the lab sub looks like it has alot of cuts that i would really want a table saw for.

Then why are you even looking at the other two designs from the Speakerplans website?  You've alluded that you could build cabinets by asking about the LabSub and showing us possible choices from Speakerplans-what else was I or anyone else here to conclude?

To repeat what Ivan has said, you need to work on defining your needs.  And in spite of the AB amplifier being more powerful, and a better product, don't expect miracles.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 24, 2013, 07:33:28 pm
Then why are you even looking at the other two designs from the Speakerplans website?  You've alluded that you could build cabinets by asking about the LabSub and showing us possible choices from Speakerplans-what else was I or anyone else here to conclude?

To repeat what Ivan has said, you need to work on defining your needs.  And in spite of the AB amplifier being more powerful, and a better product, don't expect miracles.

Best regards,

John

i could build the lab sub with the tools i have its just wont be as easy( never said i wouldnt consider doing it, Infact i just priced up how much it would cost as im really leaning twards building as pair of them).And who do u know that just settles in on one thing before looking at the different options ?

im working on getting to the point of figuring out exactly what we need , im just trying to make an informed and correct decision on what to either buy or build 
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 24, 2013, 07:48:16 pm
a scale  on fast
i kept the amp just below clipping it would just barley start to light up the clip led and i mean just start to light it

when u say that the measurement has to have other factors could u eleborate some more ?
the room was silent other then the subs , well except for some ratlles of the few windows in the room
I would go to the C scale.  A rolls off the low end and was never intended for use above around 85dB or so.

You are just reading the very upper end of the subs with A scale.

That is a good point to run the amp-I just just wanted to make sure you were running it to the max.

Just to give you an idea of how the different "parameters" make a difference.

On one particular show with a band that was pretty constant in level and measured at FOH (about 85' away) with the same meter-during the same song etc I got the following readings.

A slow  around 106-108dB
C slow around 118-120dB
C fast around 126-128dB
C peak around 136dB.

So as you can see-with the same input and the same measurement position you can get VERY different results-depending on what "settings" you use on the meter.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 25, 2013, 05:34:42 pm
I would go to the C scale.  A rolls off the low end and was never intended for use above around 85dB or so.

You are just reading the very upper end of the subs with A scale.

That is a good point to run the amp-I just just wanted to make sure you were running it to the max.

Just to give you an idea of how the different "parameters" make a difference.

On one particular show with a band that was pretty constant in level and measured at FOH (about 85' away) with the same meter-during the same song etc I got the following readings.

A slow  around 106-108dB
C slow around 118-120dB
C fast around 126-128dB
C peak around 136dB.

So as you can see-with the same input and the same measurement position you can get VERY different results-depending on what "settings" you use on the meter.

my amp got delayed and wont be here till tomorrow, theres to many ppl in the building right now for me to remeasure with my spl metter on the c scale so ill either come back later tongiht when the place is empty or do it first thing tommorow morning while im waiting for fedex to deliver my new amp.
once the amp gets here ill hook that up and test again to do a comparison between the 2 


on a side note ive been pricing up drivers and materials for the lab subs and these are looking really attractive to build at this point, i was thinking i could only afford to build them one at a time but it looks like i can do a pair at once
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 25, 2013, 06:00:25 pm
it cleared out for a few mins so i just retested with my spl meter

c scale on fast
was averaging 108db with peaks of 112db
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 25, 2013, 06:16:16 pm

on a side note ive been pricing up drivers and materials for the lab subs and these are looking really attractive to build at this point, i was thinking i could only afford to build them one at a time but it looks like i can do a pair at once
It is not going to be easy to build the lab subs with the tools you have-at least build them right so they don't leak (a major problem with DIY speaker cabinets).

It is not exactly easy with a good table saw-and the knowledge/skill how to use it.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 25, 2013, 06:20:58 pm
It is not going to be easy to build the lab subs with the tools you have-at least build them right so they don't leak (a major problem with DIY speaker cabinets).

It is not exactly easy with a good table saw-and the knowledge/skill how to use it.

im going to take my time and make sure everything is right,there is a cabinet making company in town here that i just found out about so im sure if i need i can get them to make some of the cuts ill need

i took 4 years of woodshop when i was younger so im not a total newbie to wood working, and by trade im a welder/fabricator, though i will admit when working with metal if u cut something wrong that needs to be welded together its typically not a big deal, not so much with wood lol
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: dave celko on April 26, 2013, 03:17:29 pm


one of my new ab intl amps showed up today its was the 600a not the 1100a and man even with the amp in stereo @ 270w rms each channel it kills that pos amp i was using. i mean night and day difference
im thinking when the second 600a shows up i will run each one bridged to a single 18 and just put the 1100a on the shelf for now

Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ? Some advice to think about
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 26, 2013, 07:23:25 pm

one of my new ab intl amps showed up today its was the 600a not the 1100a and man even with the amp in stereo @ 270w rms each channel it kills that pos amp i was using. i mean night and day difference
im thinking when the second 600a shows up i will run each one bridged to a single 18 and just put the 1100a on the shelf for now
There are all kinds of ways that manufacturers can "stretch" specs.  They are just trying to get people who are easily impressed with "numbers" to somehow believe that their numbers are "better" and make a sale.

Not all specs are the same-hence the reason for looking a bit deeper to get to the real story.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Pat Semeraro on April 26, 2013, 08:17:22 pm
This sounds like the classic "Cheap, loud, low, easy" - pick two...  also, never underestimate the value of interesting used gear.  Everything from LABs, to Tubas, to JBL 728s to TH-115s show up eventually.  My first question is always how to make sure the speakers don't blow up!  This can be done the right way - great speakers, great amps and captive processing.  Or, this can be done cheaply with low powered amps with good limiters (think QSC PLX) and lots of boxes that couple together to get the output you require.  Cheap powered subs always blow up eventually and the good ones are expensive!

Whatever you end up using, there's lots of value in something that can measure in-room response.  Between the subs and the room there's often 2 or 3 problem notes that will respond to eq plus correcting the overall response - fixing those will give a much smoother sound. 
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on April 26, 2013, 11:41:25 pm
i cant wait for the other 2 amps to arrive.i bridged the one 600a and ran it to one sub, and it was a massive difference. im willing to bet with each sub on a bridged 600a it will be damn close to the output levels im wanting.

if it is im going to invest in a much better eq and active crossover and see if i can get the sound a lil cleaner, and then go from there upgrade the subs one way or another
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 27, 2013, 08:11:06 am

if it is im going to invest in a much better eq and active crossover and see if i can get the sound a lil cleaner, and then go from there upgrade the subs one way or another
What type of crossover are you using NOW?  If you don't have a crossover-then that will make a HUGE difference in the "sound" of the bass.  Right now you are just getting  a bunch of low mid "mush" (if you are not using a crossover) and probably can hear the real bass because of how loud the upper freq are and covering it up.

I highly doubt you will be able to hear a difference with a "much better eq".  It certainly won't "get the sound cleaner"-unless you using a total piece of trash.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on April 27, 2013, 03:41:07 pm
What type of crossover are you using NOW?  If you don't have a crossover-then that will make a HUGE difference in the "sound" of the bass.  Right now you are just getting  a bunch of low mid "mush" (if you are not using a crossover) and probably can hear the real bass because of how loud the upper freq are and covering it up.

I highly doubt you will be able to hear a difference with a "much better eq".  It certainly won't "get the sound cleaner"-unless you using a total piece of trash.
its a technical pro xo2  crossover, i also have a cheap 31  band eq the problem witht he eg is its way to sensitive on the adjustments the slightest movement of the sliders gives a huge cut or boost in that freg range.

say i have the slider at the 0 mark and slide the slider upto the first mark above it it wont do a thing , move it a lil more and nothing , then the next lil movement will give a huge boost in that band.
its very very hard to adjust , i dont rember the brand off hand but yes it was a very cheap pos

any recommendations on a good eq and x over that wont break the bank?

we have a dance tonight so im about to me on my way over to work to start setting up for it
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on April 28, 2013, 03:56:46 am
the 1100a was sitting at work today when i got there so i hooked that up bridged to the 2 18's

at this point i think the lab subs may be out, it was definitely loud enough tonight with the new amp, and with some more carefull tweaking of the x over and eq got it sounding pretty dang good.
 we had to push the subs pretty hard tonight but they held up for 6 hours straight. ideally i think id like to add one more of the same subs so i can back off just a bit on the power level to each sub

what would the difference be between 2 18 subs at about 800w rms each  and then going to 3 of the same 18 inch subs at around 550w rms ?
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 28, 2013, 10:51:47 am
the 1100a was sitting at work today when i got there so i hooked that up bridged to the 2 18's

at this point i think the lab subs may be out, it was definitely loud enough tonight with the new amp, and with some more carefull tweaking of the x over and eq got it sounding pretty dang good.
 we had to push the subs pretty hard tonight but they held up for 6 hours straight. ideally i think id like to add one more of the same subs so i can back off just a bit on the power level to each sub

what would the difference be between 2 18 subs at about 800w rms each  and then going to 3 of the same 18 inch subs at around 550w rms ?
One of my mentors years ago told me "It is far better to use fewer-better quality pieces of gear-than a bunch of cheap gear.  All you get is a louder mess".

So let's do the math on the subs.  Assuming everything is "equal".  The difference between 2 and 3 subs-(with the same power) would be about 3-4dB.  The difference between 550w and 800 W is about 1.5dB.

So 4-1.5=2.5.  So the 3 with less power would be about 1.5 to 2.5dB louder.  Simply due to the additional cone area.

Another advantage is that the power going to each one would be less-so they would have less stress-while producing more sound.  Not a bad trade off if you ask me.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on April 28, 2013, 07:07:37 pm
One of my mentors years ago told me "It is far better to use fewer-better quality pieces of gear-than a bunch of cheap gear.  All you get is a louder mess".

So let's do the math on the subs.  Assuming everything is "equal".  The difference between 2 and 3 subs-(with the same power) would be about 3-4dB.  The difference between 550w and 800 W is about 1.5dB.

So 4-1.5=2.5.  So the 3 with less power would be about 1.5 to 2.5dB louder.  Simply due to the additional cone area.

Another advantage is that the power going to each one would be less-so they would have less stress-while producing more sound.  Not a bad trade off if you ask me.

thanks for the help, now i really need to decide if i spend another 302$'s for another enforcer 2 , or build 2 lab subs

its a hard choice as the subs will only be used for this one thing.
if i add another enforcer 2 my concern is how long will they last
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 28, 2013, 07:36:40 pm
thanks for the help, now i really need to decide if i spend another 302$'s for another enforcer 2 , or build 2 lab subs

its a hard choice as the subs will only be used for this one thing.
if i add another enforcer 2 my concern is how long will they last
You will probably realize the same increase in sound quality by going to a real sub (like the lab sub)-instead of what you are using now.

I would estimate that a single lab sub would run circles around 3 of your current cabinets (probably more)
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on April 28, 2013, 09:25:47 pm
You will probably realize the same increase in sound quality by going to a real sub (like the lab sub)-instead of what you are using now.

I would estimate that a single lab sub would run circles around 3 of your current cabinets (probably more)
i just wish i could hear one before i decided what to do
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on April 29, 2013, 06:54:57 pm
i just wish i could hear one before i decided what to do

been looking at the lab sub some more and i think i need to start with something a lil simpler for my first ones

ivan what are u thoughts on the Cinema F-20 ?

looks like it will go low and loud enough , and damn simple to build, though it is pretty tall but that isnt an issue for me
(http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php4?attachmentid=19612)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_WXjTASetbPo/Ta6DvGJ9BDI/AAAAAAAAAkE/bZcPNcwuNDQ/s1024/cinema%20sweeps.jpg)
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 29, 2013, 08:15:50 pm
been looking at the lab sub some more and i think i need to start with something a lil simpler for my first ones

ivan what are u thoughts on the Cinema F-20 ?

looks like it will go low and loud enough , and damn simple to build, though it is pretty tall but that isnt an issue for me
(http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php4?attachmentid=19612)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_WXjTASetbPo/Ta6DvGJ9BDI/AAAAAAAAAkE/bZcPNcwuNDQ/s1024/cinema%20sweeps.jpg)
I have no opinion on that cabinet-as I have nto used it.

HOWEVER there is always a price to be paid.  For cabinet that go low-the sensitivity also goes down-so the max output is lower.

I have no idea what the lines on graph are referenced to-but if if is 2,83V, then the sensitivity is not very high.  MOst likely your current subs are higher.

But I have no idea on that either.  Without being able to hear them side by side-you have to rely on measurements-and they HAVE to calibrated to something that can be compared.  Without that-then "numbers" don't mean much-if anything useful
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on April 29, 2013, 08:26:49 pm
opps i forgot to add the text that went with that graph
Quote
Measured with REW 5.0, with a UCA-202 and a Lilmike mic. First sweep was set at a drive level of 2.00 volts into a 4.00 ohm load resistor, each sweep higher is +5 dB from the previous, so the final sweep is 25 dB higher than where we started, or essentially at the limit of my 300 watt amp, and past the thermal limit of the driver. I'm not sure if the compression is the limit of the amp, driver, or both. We limited the start to 20 Hz for the highest level sweep. I was well within the limits of my soundcard and mic at these levels. No mic calibration was used, the soundcard was calibrated via a loopback.

here is a link to another forum with a ton of info on them by the designer i take it
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1329971/lilmikes-cinema-f-20

cost seems to be 250$ per box with driver , at that price i could build 4 easy, price can vary depending on driver used  and i would prolly go for the more expensive more durable driver

im getting about 112db average 117db peak out of my current subs but with a very big lack in anything below 40-45hz.
if i can maintain 115 db average and get useable response down below 40hz ill be very happy
ideally id like to bring the levels closer to 120db average

thanks for the help again
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on May 07, 2013, 04:03:15 pm
opps i forgot to add the text that went with that graph
here is a link to another forum with a ton of info on them by the designer i take it
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1329971/lilmikes-cinema-f-20

cost seems to be 250$ per box with driver , at that price i could build 4 easy, price can vary depending on driver used  and i would prolly go for the more expensive more durable driver

im getting about 112db average 117db peak out of my current subs but with a very big lack in anything below 40-45hz.
if i can maintain 115 db average and get useable response down below 40hz ill be very happy
ideally id like to bring the levels closer to 120db average

thanks for the help again

i ended up deciding to build 4 micro wreckers these will go down to around 18hz , i purchased 4 drivers and enough wood to build the first two and am going to pick up the wood to build the other 2 this weekend.

hopefully by this weekend ill have atleast 2 built
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 07, 2013, 07:47:11 pm
i ended up deciding to build 4 micro wreckers these will go down to around 18hz , i purchased 4 drivers and enough wood to build the first two and am going to pick up the wood to build the other 2 this weekend.

hopefully by this weekend ill have atleast 2 built
Good luck-Just remember that you will give up output for low freq extension.  But audio is all a matter of tradeoffs.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on June 04, 2013, 08:52:44 pm
Good luck-Just remember that you will give up output for low freq extension.  But audio is all a matter of tradeoffs.

i built 2 for my last gig this past weekend and i got so many compliments on how much better it sounded and felt, these things play so low that it didnt even have to be loud from 30hz down it literally vibrated the whole dance floor, sound was clear and crisp, only problem i had was the cabs liked to move across the floor.ended up bolting them down to the floor with some L brackets

never again will i buy siesmic audio anything

i have some larger gigs and some outdoor gigs comming up soon so i am building 4 more

Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 04, 2013, 09:56:49 pm
i built 2 for my last gig this past weekend and i got so many compliments on how much better it sounded and felt, these things play so low that it didnt even have to be loud from 30hz down it literally vibrated the whole dance floor, sound was clear and crisp, only problem i had was the cabs liked to move across the floor.ended up bolting them down to the floor with some L brackets

never again will i buy siesmic audio anything

i have some larger gigs and some outdoor gigs comming up soon so i am building 4 more

The pads sold to keep area rugs from slipping and sliding work very well for speakers, too.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: John Halliburton on June 05, 2013, 08:48:48 am
The pads sold to keep area rugs from slipping and sliding work very well for speakers, too.

After looking at his build thread over at the AVS Forums, part of the problem might be helped out by not using OSB for the cabinet build, and it doesn't look like 3/4" thick stock either, along with the possibility of no internal bracing.

Perhaps Dave will reply with some more details on these points.

I would be curious to see how the OSB would look after a trip to the Line-X dealer.  The stuff is pretty stiff and strong, although not in the same league as Baltic Birch plywood, and certainly prototyping with it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 05, 2013, 12:31:00 pm
After looking at his build thread over at the AVS Forums, part of the problem might be helped out by not using OSB for the cabinet build, and it doesn't look like 3/4" thick stock either, along with the possibility of no internal bracing.

Perhaps Dave will reply with some more details on these points.

I would be curious to see how the OSB would look after a trip to the Line-X dealer.  The stuff is pretty stiff and strong, although not in the same league as Baltic Birch plywood, and certainly prototyping with it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Best regards,

John
OSB is really strong for things like flooring/roofs etc.

But it is a lousy speaker material-it doesn't hold anything on the endgrain-swells like crazy when it gets wet and tends to "flake" quite a bit.

Covering with carpet is one of the best finishes for that type of wood.
Title: Re: best sub enclosures for my application ?
Post by: dave celko on June 05, 2013, 02:00:32 pm
After looking at his build thread over at the AVS Forums, part of the problem might be helped out by not using OSB for the cabinet build, and it doesn't look like 3/4" thick stock either, along with the possibility of no internal bracing.

Perhaps Dave will reply with some more details on these points.

I would be curious to see how the OSB would look after a trip to the Line-X dealer.  The stuff is pretty stiff and strong, although not in the same league as Baltic Birch plywood, and certainly prototyping with it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Best regards,

John

yeah i used osb baltic birtch was 75 bucks a sheet , and being my first build i didnt want to spend that much.lilmike the guy who designed the cabs told me osb would be much better to use then then mdf so thats what i went with.

as far as how to finish it and how it will hold up i have a pretty good idea what im going to do with them, ive got a ton of really thin fiberglass matt.and weave sitting here along with a ton of resin, im wondering if brushing on a coat of fiberglass resin on the osb then sand and paint wouldnt be a good idea, since yes it does flake pretty easy. or i may not even bother

now that i know how theese sound and how easy they are to build the next 4 ill prolly sepnd the money to buy the plywood still going to hurt at 75 bucks a sheet, i live in a small lil town and only one place to get lumber so its not cheap.

if i do build the next 4 out of plywood i will prolly also rebuild the first 2 i did with osb and make the cabs out of the plywood.

and yes i braced the hell out the inside , i was moving along so fast with getting them built that after the first time i stoped for some pictures , i said hell with it and just breezed threw the rest of the build.

the only pne panell that does not have a brace is the bottom angled piece and the piece that sits on the floor. i did that on purpose so if i ever needed to change out the driver i could simply flip the cab upside down and unbolt the bottom panel and have good access to the driver.