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Title: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Michael Kurczeski on April 15, 2013, 10:09:06 am
i have 2 complete behringer x32 and s16 setups and both are exhibiting the exact same problem. with 2 s16 boxes connected and with the configuration being correct on both ends(console is master, output 1-8 on box #1, 9-16 on box #2) i get an intermittent pop/crack through the PA. when this happens, the screen and lights at the console go dim, and after the pop, the pa is off for about 1 second and then comes back on. it is totally intermittent and could happen three times in one hour, or once after an 8 hour span. i am certain its the console. and even more certain it has something to do with the 2 stage boxes being setup as that is the only time it has ever happened to me. i have the same issue with 2 completely different consoles and stage boxes. is anyone else having this issue? behringer service was supposed to call me to setup an RA but i never heard back from them. 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Nitin Sidhu on April 15, 2013, 10:23:30 am
i have 2 complete behringer x32 and s16 setups and both are exhibiting the exact same problem. with 2 s16 boxes connected and with the configuration being correct on both ends(console is master, output 1-8 on box #1, 9-16 on box #2) i get an intermittent pop/crack through the PA. when this happens, the screen and lights at the console go dim, and after the pop, the pa is off for about 1 second and then comes back on. it is totally intermittent and could happen three times in one hour, or once after an 8 hour span. i am certain its the console. and even more certain it has something to do with the 2 stage boxes being setup as that is the only time it has ever happened to me. i have the same issue with 2 completely different consoles and stage boxes. is anyone else having this issue? behringer service was supposed to call me to setup an RA but i never heard back from them.

No experience with the S16, but possible for you to try with a third S16, maybe ask your dealer to lend you one.

My gut feeling is that its one of the 2 stage boxes, the pop can be attributed to a sync loss, the lights going dim on the board I have no clue or reason to.

Best of luck!
Sidhu
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 15, 2013, 10:26:22 am
Dimming lights always makes me think of low voltage.  The pop could be a turn on/turn off transient or it could be loss of clocking down the AES line... or possibly a voltage drop at one end of the snake, not sure it would matter which end.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Nitin Sidhu on April 15, 2013, 10:29:13 am
Dimming lights always makes me think of low voltage.  The pop could be a turn on/turn off transient or it could be loss of clocking down the AES line... or possibly a voltage drop at one end of the snake, not sure it would matter which end.

To the OP, is this happening in different venues, or the same ?
Possible from what Tim says, and correctly, in that lights going dim usually means a voltage sag, and where im from that is usually the kick drum in the subwoofer, running off an underpowered distro.

Sidhu
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jared Koopman on April 15, 2013, 11:27:32 am
We have not had any problems like this with our dual S16 setup. I would contact Behringer and talk to them directly.

Have you tried connecting just one S16 and does the problem stay or go?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on April 15, 2013, 11:49:30 am
Are you using quality cat5 cable?  How long is it? 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dave Bigelow on April 15, 2013, 12:27:59 pm
Dimming lights always makes me think of low voltage.  The pop could be a turn on/turn off transient or it could be loss of clocking down the AES line... or possibly a voltage drop at one end of the snake, not sure it would matter which end.

I agree on the voltage, I'd start there.

Do you have a power cord running from the snake boxes to FOH? If not try putting everything on the same power conditioner, if the problem is still there start trying to recreate it with only one snake box at a time.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 15, 2013, 05:38:39 pm
Are you using quality cat5 cable?  How long is it?

I would ask the same question. Specifically is the cable longer than 362' ?
 
And this may sound like a stretch, but if the cable is on the ground, does it pass over any sections of carpeted floor, or anything else that could generate static electricity if walked on?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chase McKnight on April 15, 2013, 07:08:42 pm
Dear Michael,

Someone will be reaching out to you from our Warranty department ASAP. 

Kind regards,

Chase McKnight
Jr. Admin, Tech Support
MUSIC Group
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: David Parker on April 15, 2013, 07:27:03 pm

I would ask the same question. Specifically is the cable longer than 362' ?
 
And this may sound like a stretch, but if the cable is on the ground, does it pass over any sections of carpeted floor, or anything else that could generate static electricity if walked on?

back in the day when I had a land line(telephone), I had a lot of static whenever it would rain. About 20' of the phone line laid on the bare concrete floor, inside. I got it up off the concrete, and the problem went away. There were no bare spots in the insualation.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on April 16, 2013, 12:32:24 am
I had the same problem with my personal setup which is a single X32 and 2 S16's.  I found that it was static and if the system got shocked anywhere from a mic cable or down to the console surface itself we experienced a audio loss and a pop through all outputs.  I thought is was a problem with my system until I did 2 other installs with completely different serial numbers and found the same problem.  It only exists when the S16's are in the systems.  We used Horizon duracat CAT6 cable at about 200' per system.

I have contacted Behringer 3 times about this problem and each time they play dumb and say "we will check with our X32 expert and call you back"  I never have a had a call back to this day.  Currently we our out of the dry weather time of year so the problem is temporarily gone until next winter.

I believe it is a inherent problem with the way the desk or stage boxes are internally grounded.  I hope they fix it or come up with a mod to fix the issue.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on April 16, 2013, 12:34:09 am
I would also suggest that you use the USB 2 track and see if you can capture this event on the recorder and then send it to the tech team at Behringer.  That was my plan I just haven't had time yet.  Or maybe a video of the problem.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Greg_Cameron on April 16, 2013, 01:40:26 am
I had the same problem with my personal setup which is a single X32 and 2 S16's.  I found that it was static and if the system got shocked anywhere from a mic cable or down to the console surface itself we experienced a audio loss and a pop through all outputs.

That is a serious issue. ESD is something that has to be really sussed out with any mission critical gear (or otherwise). At my day job, we test rigorously for ESD side effects with our stuff as it's usually used in mission critical applications and we can't afford to have a static discharge taking down a client at work. That would be very, very bad.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Michael Kurczeski on April 16, 2013, 10:54:20 am
Dimming lights always makes me think of low voltage.  The pop could be a turn on/turn off transient or it could be loss of clocking down the AES line... or possibly a voltage drop at one end of the snake, not sure it would matter which end.

this has happened at 3 different venues. i doubt the voltage drop suggestion (it was the first thing i thought about as well) since it happened with and without a ups connected at different locations. I am using 200ft cat5 ethercon cable from CBI. I feel that it might be static but if thats the case, then behringer needs to get their act together. For now, i am just not using the stage boxes and all is well.

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chase McKnight on April 17, 2013, 12:55:39 pm
Dear all,

Cabling is typically the culprit for pops and drop outs.  We recommend using unshielded CAT 5e wired to the T568B standard.  Michael's consoles are being shipped to our CARE facility so our techs can evaluate them. Brian, thank you for taking my call earlier.  If anyone has any questions, please contact us at (702) 800-8290 or myself directly at (702) 371-0830. 

Kind regards,

Chase McKnight
Jr. Admin, Tech Support
MUSIC Group
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Michael Kurczeski on April 17, 2013, 08:29:53 pm
Dear all,

Cabling is typically the culprit for pops and drop outs.  We recommend using unshielded CAT 5e wired to the T568B standard.  Michael's consoles are being shipped to our CARE facility so our techs can evaluate them. Brian, thank you for taking my call earlier.  If anyone has any questions, please contact us at (702) 800-8290 or myself directly at (702) 371-0830. 

Kind regards,

Chase McKnight
Jr. Admin, Tech Support
MUSIC Group

I've sent an email to my cable manufacturer to see if they are CAT 5e wired to the T568B standard. With that being said....I've used my cables with Yamaha m7cl48-es, Soundcraft vi and si digital snake setups and Allen Heath gld80. If it is the cable...then so far the behringer is the only one showing these symptoms.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 17, 2013, 09:20:32 pm
Dear all,

Cabling is typically the culprit for pops and drop outs.  We recommend using unshielded CAT 5e wired to the T568B standard.  Michael's consoles are being shipped to our CARE facility so our techs can evaluate them. Brian, thank you for taking my call earlier.  If anyone has any questions, please contact us at (702) 800-8290 or myself directly at (702) 371-0830. 

Kind regards,

Chase McKnight
Jr. Admin, Tech Support
MUSIC Group

Chase,
The info that is downloadable from the website shows SHIELDED Cat5e not un-shielded for use with the Powerplay devices.  Will shielded cause a problem for connection between the console and the S16's?  Do we need to use shielded for Powerplay but un-shielded for other connections?

Thanks,
Lee
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 17, 2013, 11:39:22 pm
Chase,
The info that is downloadable from the website shows SHIELDED Cat5e not un-shielded for use with the Powerplay devices.  Will shielded cause a problem for connection between the console and the S16's?  Do we need to use shielded for Powerplay but un-shielded for other connections?

Thanks,
Lee

That will all depend on Behringer's design. What won't hurt is to use shielded cable w/ metal encased connectors on only one end while waiting for Behringer to work out the issue. Another point would be to insure that your boxes are grounded to the rack rails and that the rails are grounded as well. You can ground the rails by running a ground wire from the rail to the electrical ground of the rack PDU. Lastly, a small piece of chain, the type used to hang fluorescent lights, hanging from the rack rail and touching the ground, works pretty well in area's where there may be a static build up.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Diack on April 20, 2013, 04:35:04 pm
Did we reach a conclusion for the X32->S16 snake ?. Unshielded or shielded, and if shielded, terminate the shield to ground at one end or both ends ?.
M
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Michael Kurczeski on April 21, 2013, 02:21:05 pm
Did we reach a conclusion for the X32->S16 snake ?. Unshielded or shielded, and if shielded, terminate the shield to ground at one end or both ends ?.
M

Behringer has authorized me to send in my consoles for a warranty repair. Im skeptical about both boards being defective though as i also have another company close to me reporting the same problem. I told behringers warranty dept that i cant live without both boards right now as its my busiest time of the year (Commencments). i was hoping they could do an advanced replacement of the consoles are in fact defective but was told "no". this is a huge inconvenience for me since i also dont have the boxes anymore and only have ATA cases. An advanced replacement would solve both problems for me. 1: Have consoles, 2: have boxes to send them back in. 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 21, 2013, 04:01:07 pm
And the big "B" warranty process starts to kick in, and it only took less than a year for the truth to be told.

Make or buy a shielded cable with metal encased RJ-45s at both ends (both ends grounded) and try that before you send the boards back.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Fruits on April 22, 2013, 04:45:03 am
Am I missing something here, both consoles work fine without the s16's attached, but Behringer wants the consoles back for warranty repairs?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 22, 2013, 07:15:36 am
In the past year Behringer was more than happy to send a replacement console overnight, or at least very, very quickly. Now it appears that the service model is back to what it has been for every other product. Send it to us and we'll look at it, fix it, or replace it. NO cross shipping.

Mike has two (2) consoles plus the stage boxes, so now the question is which is causing the problem and the best he can do is send them back. This put's Mike out of work and if I remember correctly the only Behringer repair center handling this product is in Las Vegas. I pointed this out long ago as being an issue to most people, and point to it again.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Steve Alves on April 22, 2013, 09:24:46 am
You would think that having someone from Behringer in this thread, they would go out of their way to keep Mike going. He has an above average investment in their gear and they are trying to improve their name in the field. This is not going to go very far to accomplish that.

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 22, 2013, 10:03:09 am
Before we throw Behringer service under the bus for not sending him new replacement units, that is not normal practice with value products due to thin profit margins. Even if they set up some expectation by doing so several times very visibly, early on.

Second, a subtle interaction between two units, that otherwise appear to be operating properly may not be a manufacturing issue, but could be a subtle design oversight, or application specific (cables?, power?, whatever?). So maybe new units would do the same, so what is the point of swapping, the OP reports two systems acting the same.

Hopefully they are pedaling as fast as they can back in some lab to recreate the problem. It would be slightly easier to parse out a build problem with the actual smoking gun. If it isn't a build problem it may be difficult to recreate the exact same environment at distance.

We need at adjust our expectations for lower priced products that haven't been in the field very long. The basic product seems to be performing well, but stuff happens. It's been a week lets see what they figure out.

JR

PS: Where the repair centers are doesn't matter if they don't know what to fix. This doesn't sound like a routine repair, to me, while it may be simple once the mechanism is understood, and still "could" be something external or environmental.   
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chuck Simon on April 22, 2013, 10:57:08 am
I am sorry to see the position you are in, but I am surprised to see a professional sound company dependent on a new product that is totally untested by real, actual experience, especially a product from Behringer.  Did the Kool Aid get drunk a little too fast?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Michael Kurczeski on April 22, 2013, 02:06:49 pm
I am sorry to see the position you are in, but I am surprised to see a professional sound company dependent on a new product that is totally untested by real, actual experience, especially a product from Behringer.  Did the Kool Aid get drunk a little too fast?

Dependent on the gear i bought to run my business? well, yea...

FWIW i also have 2x SC48 consoles, A Soundcraft Vi6, A couple small Soundcraft compacts and many a small anolog mixers. the Behringers have their place in my inventory...they just need to work. is it wrong to assume the company would have things ironed out before they are released?? either way, they work fine without the S16's connected and thats how i am using them for now.

"Did the Kool Aid get drunk a little too fast?"....this doesnt make any sense but i know what you were going for...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 22, 2013, 02:26:40 pm
That's why they call it the "bleeding edge" of technology, while these products are most notable for their price engineering.

Whenever multiple boxes must play nice together the degree of difficulty increases.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Jojade on April 22, 2013, 06:48:45 pm
In the past year Behringer was more than happy to send a replacement console overnight, or at least very, very quickly. Now it appears that the service model is back to what it has been for every other product. Send it to us and we'll look at it, fix it, or replace it. NO cross shipping.

Mike has two (2) consoles plus the stage boxes, so now the question is which is causing the problem and the best he can do is send them back. This put's Mike out of work and if I remember correctly the only Behringer repair center handling this product is in Las Vegas. I pointed this out long ago as being an issue to most people, and point to it again.

The cross ship option was used for people that got consoles that were dead out of the box, or that had failed after a very short time in use.  We don't know for sure how long the OP has had his consoles.  Because you have 2 identical setups that are failing in the exact same way, while possible, it's not likely that both systems failed identically, unless there was an external reason for both to fail.  Eg, a ground loop causing component failure, static discharge causing the failure, etc.

What it may be is that the equipment has a design flaw that will cause this behavior in some cases.  It may be able to be resolved with a firmware update, but it also may require some work at the factory to make better.

Expecting cross shipping on gear that you need is not realistic.  If you do get something cross shipped, it's going to be a refurbished unit that someone else had their grubby's on, and do you really want that?  To expect a brand new unit so you don't have to wait isn't going to happen. Imagine if you had a problem with the trailer lighting connector on your car and you took it to the dealer and told them that you need a brand new car to replace yours, since you need to be able to pull a trailer for work.  Think that would go over well?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 22, 2013, 07:53:06 pm
Before I respond much further I would really like to know what Behringer has done for Michael other than tell him to send the product back. Turn around, cost, try this, etc.. Regardless though, and value entry level gear or not, it is not OK for there to be only one sight where these problems can be looked at by qualified engineers.

The example of pulling a trailer doesn't equate. If I was pulling a trailer with one of my Explorers and it failed under warranty I would go to my nearest ford dealer where it would be brought into the garage and fixed. If the truck couldn't be fixed in a reasonable amount of time then many dealers offer a loaner free of charge or for a reduced price. I may not be happy, but I wouldn't be out of work. Behringer's problem is a lack of service centers manned by qualified personnel capable of performing even basic diagnosis or parts swaps.   
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Steve Alves on April 22, 2013, 08:29:19 pm
T Imagine if you had a problem with the trailer lighting connector on your car and you took it to the dealer and told them that you need a brand new car to replace yours, since you need to be able to pull a trailer for work.  Think that would go over well?

No but I have received loaner vehicles and in some cases my warranty covered a rental. The fact is this is not a $500 dollar investment. Would I have bought Behringer, No.. But do I understand that when spending that kind of money on "professional" equipment he has expectations. ??? Ahh Hell.. It's a Behringer.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on April 22, 2013, 11:50:54 pm
Let it be known hat Chase from Behringer has contacted me directly by phone to see if I have worked out the problem on my end. He also to let me know that they have never seen the issue come up yet nor can they duplicate it in the lab at Behringer. He asked me to run a few test's and make a video of the problem and send it off to his tech team.  I'm working on it from my end.  Should have a example of the problem this week.  I will post the results here to seen if this is the same issue described in the thread.  I'm very confident that my issue is ESD and I hope that is the same problem.  If so the solution should be simple.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Jojade on April 22, 2013, 11:55:32 pm
Before I respond much further I would really like to know what Behringer has done for Michael other than tell him to send the product back. Turn around, cost, try this, etc.. Regardless though, and value entry level gear or not, it is not OK for there to be only one sight where these problems can be looked at by qualified engineers.

The example of pulling a trailer doesn't equate. If I was pulling a trailer with one of my Explorers and it failed under warranty I would go to my nearest ford dealer where it would be brought into the garage and fixed. If the truck couldn't be fixed in a reasonable amount of time then many dealers offer a loaner free of charge or for a reduced price. I may not be happy, but I wouldn't be out of work. Behringer's problem is a lack of service centers manned by qualified personnel capable of performing even basic diagnosis or parts swaps.

That's something that your dealer offers, not the manufacturer.  Yes, most repairs can be in shop, but if it's a more difficult issue, it can take time, or things have to be sent to the factory for repair.  I actually had an ENGINE shipped to a service center because of a warranty issue in a Chevy Blazer.  I was out a vehicle for about 2 weeks, no loaner given.

Now, with electronics, if you bought from a local dealer, you'd hope that the dealer would be able to help out.  Heck, if I was the dealer, I'd let the customer try another piece of gear to help troubleshoot the problem.  But if you ordered online, well, that option may not exist.

On another note, how do other manufacturers deal with warranty issues?  Do any of them offer cross ship on this size item?  I'd be surprised to hear if they do.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Charest on April 23, 2013, 12:21:27 am
That's something that your dealer offers, not the manufacturer.  Yes, most repairs can be in shop, but if it's a more difficult issue, it can take time, or things have to be sent to the factory for repair.  I actually had an ENGINE shipped to a service center because of a warranty issue in a Chevy Blazer.  I was out a vehicle for about 2 weeks, no loaner given.

Now, with electronics, if you bought from a local dealer, you'd hope that the dealer would be able to help out.  Heck, if I was the dealer, I'd let the customer try another piece of gear to help troubleshoot the problem.  But if you ordered online, well, that option may not exist.

On another note, how do other manufacturers deal with warranty issues?  Do any of them offer cross ship on this size item?  I'd be surprised to hear if they do.
Hi Brian,

A few years ago, I'd taken shipment of a couple of Lectrosonics antenna splitters. Due to poor planning on my part, the time between receipt of the items and when they had to be in production was too short. When I encountered a problem, my contact at Full Compass worked with the great people at Lectrosonics to drop ship another unit by 10:30AM on the Saturday so that the completely new wireless rig could make the gig - this saved my backside.

Full Compass & Lectrosonics treated me like gold even though I'm a small fish... Maybe I am, but I have a long memory of that excellent customer care, and will never forget it, and I tell people about it when it's appropriate - like now.

I ordered online, but had a relationship with my contact at Full Compass (still do) and formed a few friendships at Lectrosonics too, so sometimes it's more than the product - the relationship is everything.

I had the same experience with Sweetwater with a brand new mixer. Replacement new item sent, CC given to hold it if the other wasn't returned which is standard practice I think... Haven't forgotten that one either. Just my experience...

Best regards,
Bob Charest
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 23, 2013, 05:39:35 am
..."Did the Kool Aid get drunk a little too fast?"....this doesnt make any sense but i know what you were going for...

"Drinking the Kool Aid" is typically considered synonymous with being 'a true believer'.  It's commonly used in a derogatory fashion, but does't need be.

For the record, it was Flavor Aid, not Kool Aid, but Kool Aid is a better know brand. 

A reference is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown.  In essence, Jim Jones talked people into believing in his word, to the point of ~900 committing mass suicide by drinking poisoned Flavor Aid. 

So 'drinking the Kool Aid' may have a negative effect.

Modern American History.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dion Connelly on April 23, 2013, 05:42:14 am
i have 2 complete behringer x32 and s16 setups and both are exhibiting the exact same problem. with 2 s16 boxes connected and with the configuration being correct on both ends(console is master, output 1-8 on box #1, 9-16 on box #2) i get an intermittent pop/crack through the PA. when this happens, the screen and lights at the console go dim, and after the pop, the pa is off for about 1 second and then comes back on. it is totally intermittent and could happen three times in one hour, or once after an 8 hour span. i am certain its the console. and even more certain it has something to do with the 2 stage boxes being setup as that is the only time it has ever happened to me. i have the same issue with 2 completely different consoles and stage boxes. is anyone else having this issue? behringer service was supposed to call me to setup an RA but i never heard back from them.

I have exactly the same set up as you and have had very similar problems this weekend causing me serious problems with the act I am working with. If you have any resolution I would be very interested.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 23, 2013, 05:51:07 am
... Imagine if you had a problem with the trailer lighting connector on your car and you took it to the dealer and told them that you need a brand new car to replace yours, since you need to be able to pull a trailer for work.  Think that would go over well?

Lexus, yep, free rental car. Toyota, nope.  Same company.

Midas, probably. Behringer, unrealistic expectation IMO.

I was amazed by the early level of service Behringer provided for the x32.  They probably worked out some engineering and manufacturing bugs as quickly as possible, in public. Brilliant business move.

Realistically, they can't possibly maintain that level of support for a $3,000 console.

To someone who posted earlier they expected more for a 'professional level equipment', I think you need to redefine professional.  It may sound great, and it may work great, and it may hold up over time, but no one can't afford to spend a $500 on supporting a $3,000 product.  A $30,000 console, no problem.
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on April 23, 2013, 07:55:49 am
I have exactly the same set up as you

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on April 23, 2013, 08:14:32 am


On another note, how do other manufacturers deal with warranty issues?  Do any of them offer cross ship on this size item?  I'd be surprised to hear if they do.

I cross ship with Crown on the few occasions that I have needed it. I put in a lot of Crown amplifiers..100-200 per year. Most of the problems are that the amp is fully functional just the voltage in System Architect isn't right, or impedance or similar. I have had them advance replace items over a year old with B-stock. ( it saved the day, as the customer already purchased a replacement before contacting me, only after they found out their replacement wouldn't make it to meet their event, Crowns no charge next day did). I am also a dealer though, and they treat me very well in situations like this. New amps if problems are found during the install, B-stock otherwise. That seems fair to me. To clarify though... These are not their cheap amps. HDs and CTs
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Michael Kurczeski on April 23, 2013, 08:51:13 am
Before I respond much further I would really like to know what Behringer has done for Michael other than tell him to send the product back. Turn around, cost, try this, etc.. Regardless though, and value entry level gear or not, it is not OK for there to be only one sight where these problems can be looked at by qualified engineers.

The example of pulling a trailer doesn't equate. If I was pulling a trailer with one of my Explorers and it failed under warranty I would go to my nearest ford dealer where it would be brought into the garage and fixed. If the truck couldn't be fixed in a reasonable amount of time then many dealers offer a loaner free of charge or for a reduced price. I may not be happy, but I wouldn't be out of work. Behringer's problem is a lack of service centers manned by qualified personnel capable of performing even basic diagnosis or parts swaps.

They asked me to send them in to las vegas. I told them i dont have the boxes anymore, only ATA cases, and that i kinda need them right now. i havent heard anything since.

Im trying to get them to send me boxes so i can ship them back. Unless fedex will take them in the ATA cases but i doubt it....
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 23, 2013, 10:26:16 am
They're cheap, buy two more and use those boxes. (kidding).

JR
Title: Re: Posting Rules
Post by: Dion Connelly on April 24, 2013, 08:52:15 am
Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac

Done! Sorry, I didn't see that one.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dion Connelly on April 24, 2013, 09:15:07 am
i have 2 complete behringer x32 and s16 setups and both are exhibiting the exact same problem. with 2 s16 boxes connected and with the configuration being correct on both ends(console is master, output 1-8 on box #1, 9-16 on box #2) i get an intermittent pop/crack through the PA. when this happens, the screen and lights at the console go dim, and after the pop, the pa is off for about 1 second and then comes back on. it is totally intermittent and could happen three times in one hour, or once after an 8 hour span. i am certain its the console. and even more certain it has something to do with the 2 stage boxes being setup as that is the only time it has ever happened to me. i have the same issue with 2 completely different consoles and stage boxes. is anyone else having this issue? behringer service was supposed to call me to setup an RA but i never heard back from them.

Hi Michael,
I have have had a further development to a very similar problem. I've had pops and crackles in the system when using the X32 with two S16 boxes. On Friday night I also had an audio dropout of about 3-4 seconds which has lead to complaints by the artist to the promoter causing me no end of problems. A few days later we tested the system without the band. When we powered the S16 down and then back up it made a loud pulsating noise and then died. I'm waiting on a response from Behringer at the moment.
I did have one question for you. Are the back line instruments plugged into the same electrical phase as your S16s when you had problems? I thought this may be the problem until my S16 quit while testing last night.

Cheers,
Dion
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Vinny DAgostino on April 24, 2013, 10:00:47 am
They asked me to send them in to las vegas. I told them i dont have the boxes anymore, only ATA cases, and that i kinda need them right now. i havent heard anything since.

Im trying to get them to send me boxes so i can ship them back. Unless fedex will take them in the ATA cases but i doubt it....

I have had no issues shipping ATA cases with Fedex, just tape the latches down so they don't get caught on anything.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Darren Scaresbrook on April 24, 2013, 11:52:00 am
Hi Michael,

I have had the same problem. It is the stage boxes dropping sync. When the sync drops the screen flickers, it is not power related.

I sent mine to service and they ended up sending me new units as it would not fault for them on the bench.
It has not been long enough yet for me to say the problem is gone with the new units.

Behringer blamed the cat 5 cables I am using, however, I am skeptical as they are pro touring grade and work fine with an iLive system and Midas system (also aes50).

I do not know whether it should be shielded or unshielded cable as Behringer USA has told me unshielded and Behringer Germany says shielded. Who do we believe?

If you look on soundforums and the Behringer forum you will see a few people have had this issue. Some have even experimented by trying inducing  severe emi to replicate the fault.
It seems very intermittant.

I'll be using mine this weekend and will let you know how it goes.

Darren
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 24, 2013, 05:11:18 pm
They're cheap, buy two more and use those boxes. (kidding).

JR

Like a duck flying upside down, you quack me up.
 
I wonder if the Soundcraft stage boxes work with the X32 (hint).
 
Darin,
Did you have to send your boxes from Australia back to the US??
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Darren Scaresbrook on April 24, 2013, 10:53:01 pm

I wonder if the Soundcraft stage boxes work with the X32 (hint).

No, but the Midas dl251 does.

Darin,
Did you have to send your boxes from Australia back to the US??

No, there is an approved service centre in Melbourne.
Title: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Samuel Rees on April 25, 2013, 10:21:32 am
Maybe Bob can clear shielded v. unsheilded up... isn't there a difference in the receptacles? The ones meant for shielded have a metal receptacle case or metal tabs to otherwise connect to the shield? In doing some brief IT work, I thought it have been explained to me that you don't use shielded cables on devices without the appropriate receptacle because then it's just a floating shield. Please correct me if I'm embarrassing myself!
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 25, 2013, 03:04:01 pm
As much fun as it is to speculate about easy fixes, I suspect they have already been inspected. While serial digital communication is based on robust voltage and timing margins, modern higher clock speeds and smaller logic voltages have reduced those safety margins for passing good data.

Since these apparently work on the bench, one question is what is different in the field?

Cable characteristic impedance and perhaps shielding should be on the list. Terminations? Are the units plugged into the same power drop?

Any unusual location RF, emi issues, while every day there seems to be more radio signals around.

It's always something. Good luck.

JR 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chase McKnight on April 25, 2013, 06:25:41 pm
Dear all,

This is not a known issue but we're anxious to get Michael Kurczeski's console into our CARE facility for evaluation.  This will be the first documented piece coming here for this issue.  I've PM'd a couple of you who are having issues.  Please contact me if there's anything I can help with.

Kind regards,

Chase McKnight
Jr. Admin, Care
MUSIC Group
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 25, 2013, 07:35:23 pm
Chase,
You could start by letting these unfortunate people know if they should be using fully shielded cable with the proper metal encased connectors on both ends, one end, or not at all. There seemed to be a difference in opinions between the Asian and German Behringer sites.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: James A. Griffin on April 26, 2013, 06:51:05 pm
Chase,
The info that is downloadable from the website shows SHIELDED Cat5e not un-shielded for use with the Powerplay devices.  Will shielded cause a problem for connection between the console and the S16's?  Do we need to use shielded for Powerplay but un-shielded for other connections?

Thanks,
Lee

Just for kicks, try a different cable and see what happens.   Even if it's a couple of short runs at the shop, you'll know if it's a cable issue
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chase McKnight on April 26, 2013, 07:07:21 pm
Dear Bob,

We're finding that the difference between shielded and un-shielded CAT 5e is playing a smaller role than the type of cable and wiring standard is (T568B).  This is something we should hopefully have a more definitive answer on soon!

Kind regards,

Chase McKnight
Jr. Admin, Care
MUSIC Group
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 26, 2013, 10:41:58 pm
Thank you Chase for the response. T568B, or WECO 568B dictates the RJ45 termination among other things, as I'm sure you are aware. Although often referred to as a straight through cable 568B is not straight through as the second pair of the dominant white set (green) is split to accommodate the blue pair (reversed). The blue pair was originally intended for phone services and reversed to prevent the possibility of phone line voltages from entering the LAN connection. I don't see how an RJ45 wired to 568B could be a problem unless for some reason there is voltage on the blue and brown pair where it shouldn't be.

I will suggest that the OP, or anyone else experiencing this problem try a cable wired using only the four (4) wires required for Ethernet according to 568B. In other words, a cable using ONLY the orange and green pairs. The blue and brown pairs can be cut prior to entering the RJ45, or simply wrapped around the cable and not crimped into the connector. Any good quality cable supporting CAT5 or above should work as long as the cable does not exceed 328'.

If there is a unit in or near Boston I would be willing to make and provide the cable for test purposes as a help to the members of this site.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Michael Kurczeski on April 26, 2013, 10:48:38 pm
Hey Bob
I am sending the boards to behringer after the weekend. I haven't used the S16 since I've had the issue and don't plan to unless the problem is identified and a fix is in place.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Darren Scaresbrook on April 29, 2013, 10:03:15 pm
Well, I took the replacement desk and stage racks that Behringer swapped over for two shows on the weekend.
Using the same cat5 cable as before, everything worked just as it should. No pops,crackles or loss of sync.

(ps: for those of you old enough to remember, the band was Hermans Hermits. What a great bunch of guys, a pleasure to work with, and hilarious, on and off stage. From the era when bands didn't just play music, but knew how to "entertain")

Darren
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 29, 2013, 11:17:06 pm
Glad to hear it worked out for you. Good band, good songs from a day well past.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 29, 2013, 11:42:52 pm
...

(ps: for those of you old enough to remember, the band was Hermans Hermits. What a great bunch of guys, a pleasure to work with, and hilarious, on and off stage. From the era when bands didn't just play music, but knew how to "entertain")

Darren

Now I'll be stuck all day with this in my brain:

...I'm 'enery the eighth, I am,
'enery the eighth I am, I am...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 30, 2013, 07:56:45 am
I can hear it from across the river.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Joe Sanborn on May 01, 2013, 09:12:20 pm
Hi Guys,

Most of these types of problems are cable related.  As Jan indicates below you must use shielded CAT-5 cables.
While unshielded cables many work at one gig, they may not work properly at another show due to interference. It is the same general principle as balanced mic lines.


I wanted to share this information directly from Jan Duwe:

Jan DUWE
Assistant Manager, Conceptual Engineering
MUSIC Group Services EU GmbH

I'd like to take the opportunity to advise on some statements/postings which were made in the course of this discussion. First of all, Behringer did not and does not endorse the use of UTP (unshielded) CAT5 cable for two reasons. On one hand the international regulations, i.e. FCC and EN, are very strict about radiated electro-magnetic interference, and we can only ensure reasonable dB margins when even the tiniest contributions are controlled--here shielding actually makes a difference. And on the other hand, there may be common mode interference by extreme spikes from neighboring lighting cables for example, which we rather do not want to allow entering the console at all. Of course, the receiver's CMRR will prevent mis-interpretation, but it is definitely sage to prevent any sort of uncontrolled HF noise penetrating the console, if there are so simple means for achieving it. (Needless to say, when we are talking about shielded TP, the shield obviously needs to be reliably connected to ground on both sides)

Nevertheless, I think we are all in accord with a couple of crucial facts:
> For good reasons the X32 has got the best available CAT5 connectors using orginal NEUTRIK Ethercon.
> It has got one of the most robust networking interfaces, which is 100% Klark Teknik FPGA based SuperMac technology, the same as MIDAS.
> AES50's physical layer is 100 MBit Ethernet based, all proven and mature technology for many years.
> AES50 provides extremely solid clock propagation, superior to many other networking standards (which is why it was chosen by MKT in the first place).
> The X32 has successfully passed all the international certifications, which includes radiated and received electro-magnetic interference.
> The S16 and X32 (... and P16) are performing flawlessly, are set up with ease and have absolutely no inherent communication issues
> Considering roughly ~35k units (X32 and S16) out there, working in all sorts of venues, simple and insane applications, operated by skillsets from seasoned audio pro's to absolute beginners...
And what we are talking here about is less than a handfull of non-reproducible glitches...

People who have followed us during the market introduction of X32 and S16 know that we are considering customer concerns v e r y seriously, and I garantee we are doing our best to spot any room for improvement. In this case however, it seems there are outside factors, fairly unrelated to the products, that generally would deserve attention. There are many recommendations and best-practices, which apply to basically every digital sound reinforcement system, digital networking or mixing console in the audio world:
> use the same power lines for all audio equipment
> preferably use power line filters and/or a quality UPS with integrated filters
> prevent running audio and lighting or other high-current or switched-mode equipment from the same outlet etc.

These general precautions have helped improve the reliability in many applications throughout the industry, and using the S16 / X32 is no exception to these rules.

The people who had visited us at WNAMM13 in January, might have noticed how easily we had setup a system of 13 X32 consoles (including the first prototypes of the new models) with all sorts of Wifi routers attached and Protools PC feeding the multitracks. Everything was working 5 days in a row in an odd tradeshow environment, without the slightest glitches whatsoever. ;-)


I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 01, 2013, 11:15:11 pm
Chase,
Are there any statements in the product manuals pertaining to cable type? My take after reading this and many other threads concerning cable for your products is that nowhere in the manual(s) is a cable type specifically stated.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Greg_Cameron on May 02, 2013, 04:12:25 pm
> The X32 has successfully passed all the international certifications, which includes radiated and received electro-magnetic interference.

Hi Joe. Specifically, was full ESD testing done in order to ensure that high joule static electricity doesn't cause issues? Something along the lines of a Schaffner NSG 435 ESD simulator goes a long way to finding ESD related issues.

Greg
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 02, 2013, 04:50:34 pm
I would listen to the later company guy who said use a shielded cat 5 cable, not the earlier company guy who said the shielding may not matter.

case closed, maybe...

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 02, 2013, 10:18:00 pm
I would listen to the later company guy who said use a shielded cat 5 cable, not the earlier company guy who said the shielding may not matter.

case closed, maybe...

JR

I agree, which is why I had originally mentioned shielding and grounded cable ends. Now all we need is for Behringer to commit one way or the other, or specify the location of this information in their manuals.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Josh Daws on May 02, 2013, 10:27:20 pm

I agree, which is why I had originally mentioned shielding and grounded cable ends. Now all we need is for Behringer to commit one way or the other, or specify the location of this information in their manuals.

umm bob it was pointed out in Jan's email that they don't endorse using unshielded cat5e...that to me would mean that behringer suggests sheilded cable. but i highly doubt its in the manual...lol if it is...someone point it out! haha
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 03, 2013, 07:16:39 pm
umm bob it was pointed out in Jan's email that they don't endorse using unshielded cat5e...that to me would mean that behringer suggests sheilded cable. but i highly doubt its in the manual...lol if it is...someone point it out! haha

I agree Josh, but prior to his "endorsement" someone else from Behringer had no commitment one way or the other. Not having the statement in the manual is similar to no statement at all. Personally, and without anyone's "endorsement", I would have used fully shielded cable with shielded and ground capable connectors on both ends. But that's me.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 03, 2013, 07:21:19 pm
Is there really any debate...?

If they mess up with shielded cable we might have something to talk about.

Since this was suggested to the OP one wonders how this thread made it to 7 pages.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Josh Daws on May 03, 2013, 08:08:06 pm

I agree Josh, but prior to his "endorsement" someone else from Behringer had no commitment one way or the other. Not having the statement in the manual is similar to no statement at all. Personally, and without anyone's "endorsement", I would have used fully shielded cable with shielded and ground capable connectors on both ends. But that's me.

agreed...always should use shielded cable (unless specified for some reason).
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Darren Scaresbrook on May 04, 2013, 01:12:32 am


I wanted to share this information directly from Jan Duwe:

Jan DUWE
Assistant Manager, Conceptual Engineering
MUSIC Group Services EU GmbH

I'd like to take the opportunity to advise on some statements/postings which were made in the course of this discussion. First of all, Behringer did not and does not endorse the use of UTP (unshielded) CAT5 cable for two reasons.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

Well, actually, they did endorse it to me!
I had the problem using shielded cable.
Behringer swapped the desk and racks and suggested the shielded cable was the problem due to increased capacitance from the shield.
New desk and racks are ok so far while using the same original cables. Time will tell.
The same cables are also fine when used on 2 other systems A&H and Midas(also aes50).

Darren
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 04, 2013, 10:04:13 am
Not so old Chinese proverb..."Company with many mouths doesn't speak with one voice".

JR

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Michael Kurczeski on May 04, 2013, 05:42:09 pm
agreed...always should use shielded cable (unless specified for some reason).

Well, I was never informed of this...either way, the board continues to exhibit the same problem. I ordered some shielded cable. Allen Heath, Yamaha and Soundcraft consoles have never given me this problem with the same unsheilded cable and in the same venues, same setup, etc. since I am using unsheilded cable, is it likely that static or being run near ac cables is the culprit?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Josh Daws on May 04, 2013, 11:03:58 pm
Well, I was never informed of this...either way, the board continues to exhibit the same problem. I ordered some shielded cable. Allen Heath and Soundcraft consoles have never given me this problem with the same unsheilded cable and in the same venues, same setup, etc. since I am using unsheilded cable, is it likely that static or being run near ac cables is the culprit?

its not really a matter of being informed about it..actually i guess it kinda is. think if of like balanced and unbalanced cables. why use unbalanced cable where balanced can and should be used.

however, if behringer doesn't know then it could be anything. my guess is that it could be the magnetic fields generated by the AC cables, or even the unsheilded cable itself could be any number of reasons. i guess that is the trade off in buying a behringer product. Im not saying you purchased wrong (or right), or you purchased a $3k boat anchor. its just that while yes behringer took steps into place to ensure the quality of their products and do take it seriously. but you can only "cut so many corners". and this goes for any other brand. take a look at the new soundcraft expression compact Si!...certainly some tradeoffs there...lol

its the age old saying...you get what you pay for...but don't worry im sure there will be a fix somehow for it...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Darren Scaresbrook on May 09, 2013, 07:12:23 am
Hey Bob
I am sending the boards to behringer after the weekend. I haven't used the S16 since I've had the issue and don't plan to unless the problem is identified and a fix is in place.

Hi Michael,

Just wondering if you have heard anything yet? Has the issue been resolved?

Darren
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Joe Sanborn on May 09, 2013, 06:46:25 pm
Dear Guys,

As I indicated in my last post, the correct cable is important.

I posted Jan Duwe's comments on the correct AES50 cable. 
He has indicated that the cable should be Shielded CAT-5e. 

The AES50 on the X32 is technology coming directly over from MIDAS and KLARK TEKNIK.  I have spoken to the people at MIDAS and they only advise the use of Shielded CAT-5e.  MIDAS actually offers a Belden cable with a cable reel.

I suggest avoiding inexpensive PVC jacketed cables that can be easily crimped, pinched or crushed easily.  You should also use a cable reel to properly wind up and store your AES50 cable.

We do not recommend CAT-6 or anything other than shielded CAT-5e.  While some CAT-6 cables will work, others can be wired differently and may not work. 

I also HIGHLY recommend a cable with Ethercon ends.

So once again Shielded CAT-5e is what you want to use as you connection between X32 and S16, (and S-16 to S16).

I have used the ProCo, (Pro Co 300' Shielded Cat 5e Ethercon Cable).  It has a robust casing, Ethercon ends and is Shielded CAT-5e.

The official MIDAS cable is also a great cable.  You can call our Vegas facility for availability.  702-371-0830


Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on May 09, 2013, 10:00:12 pm
Thanks Joe for the update and confirmation. Could you see that this information is added to the product manuals for both the board and the stage boxes. Thanks.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tomas Miller on June 22, 2013, 03:41:09 pm
So once again Shielded CAT-5e is what you want to use as you connection between X32 and S16, (and S-16 to S16).

I have used the ProCo, (Pro Co 300' Shielded Cat 5e Ethercon Cable).  It has a robust casing, Ethercon ends and is Shielded CAT-5e.

The official MIDAS cable is also a great cable.  You can call our Vegas facility for availability.  702-371-0830


Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

Thanks for the info Joe but I have some issues with this.  I purchased 300' of durable solid core cat5 with ethercon connectors and stuck it on a reel based upon the only cable information I could find regarding these products.   The following link(http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/S16.aspx) will take you to a page on your website which has product information on the s16 which reads as follows:

"KLARK TEKNIK engineers worked hand-in-hand with BEHRINGER product developers to ensure the S16 meets, or exceeds, the requirements of live performance entertainers and their professional audio engineers. Some of the outstanding features are:

48 bidirectional audio channels over CAT5 cable (48 kHz)
24 bidirectional audio channels over CAT5 cable (96 kHz)"

No information regarding shielding or cat5e, only basic cat5 cable was mentioned.  My cable purchase was made after researching all I could find published by your company, now you're claiming the cable which works with the same AES50 protocol on other systems with zero issues will not work on yours?

I have two S16s and an X32, I've been running sound for a multi billion dollar corporation this week and had to unplug my stage box after the first session due to audio drop out followed by a loud pop which occurred twice.  Are you telling me that this was due to the wrong cable being used?

It very much sounded to me like the stagebox lost connection with the console followed by a pop as the connection was reestablished.

I ran an analogue snake after this issue and have had no issues since.  There was a moment after the session, when the stagebox was still in use, when I swear I heard some jitter which would indicate a clocking issue.  The wrong cable could cause both jitter and drop out which is why I'm so frustrated that the appropriate information has not been published for your company to indicate which cable should be used.  Why a cable that works with zero issues on other systems has problems on yours is beyond me. 

If your company wants to be a professional sound equipment provider then they had better start acting like it.

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on June 22, 2013, 04:24:22 pm
If you want to act professional use your full name.

In what universe is this stuff not value products? Use accordingly.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 22, 2013, 04:26:55 pm
Dear Guys,

As I indicated in my last post, the correct cable is important.

I posted Jan Duwe's comments on the correct AES50 cable. 
He has indicated that the cable should be Shielded CAT-5e. 

The AES50 on the X32 is technology coming directly over from MIDAS and KLARK TEKNIK.  I have spoken to the people at MIDAS and they only advise the use of Shielded CAT-5e.  MIDAS actually offers a Belden cable with a cable reel.

I suggest avoiding inexpensive PVC jacketed cables that can be easily crimped, pinched or crushed easily.  You should also use a cable reel to properly wind up and store your AES50 cable.

We do not recommend CAT-6 or anything other than shielded CAT-5e.  While some CAT-6 cables will work, others can be wired differently and may not work. 

I also HIGHLY recommend a cable with Ethercon ends.

So once again Shielded CAT-5e is what you want to use as you connection between X32 and S16, (and S-16 to S16).

I have used the ProCo, (Pro Co 300' Shielded Cat 5e Ethercon Cable).  It has a robust casing, Ethercon ends and is Shielded CAT-5e.

The official MIDAS cable is also a great cable.  You can call our Vegas facility for availability.  702-371-0830


Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

Joe,
CAT6 is 100% backwards compatible with CAT5 with the only exception being Neutrik Ethercon connectors for CAT6 not being able to mate to Ethercon CAT5 connections due to the shell size.  There is no wiring difference unless you mean 568A vs. 568B. 
The critical piece here seems to be the need for an STP rather than just a TP cable.

Lee
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: James A. Griffin on June 22, 2013, 06:25:03 pm
Thanks for the info Joe but I have some issues with this.  I purchased 300' of durable solid core cat5 with ethercon connectors and stuck it on a reel based upon the only cable information I could find regarding these products.   

Yeah, it's a bit inconvenient that the info wasn't available when the units came out of the box, but it's not a deal-killer.  I'm sure future versions of the manual will be more specific about cabling requirements.

Sell your unshielded cable and buy the proper ones.   Get to enjoying the X32 and S16's and you'll wonder why you wasted so much time whining about it.   It really is a great package.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 22, 2013, 07:07:55 pm
Thanks Joe for the update and confirmation. Could you see that this information is added to the product manuals for both the board and the stage boxes. Thanks.

I think I had said that before. Not a question for me anymore, and that's because I went with a Soundcraft board. I'm done here.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tomas Miller on June 27, 2013, 02:08:45 pm
If you want to act professional use your full name.

In what universe is this stuff not value products? Use accordingly.

JR

In what universe is it okay for your system to fail?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on June 27, 2013, 02:22:35 pm
In what universe is it okay for your system to fail?

In what universe do we attain perfection? Not this one.

While the difference between value and premium products gets reduced by technology there still are differences or else there wouldn't be value and premium products. They'd just be products.  8)

Sometimes the difference is not literally the hardware but support, be it communication, competence, whatever.

So far from what i see posted the X32 seems to doing more right than wrong. In large scale manufacturing stuff always happens, its how the incidents get managed that matters more IMO.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on June 27, 2013, 02:26:05 pm
I have two S16s and an X32, I've been running sound for a multi billion dollar corporation this week and had to unplug my stage box after the first session due to audio drop out followed by a loud pop which occurred twice.  Are you telling me that this was due to the wrong cable being used?


If your company wants to be a professional sound equipment provider then they had better start acting like it.

Are you telling me that you used a $3000 audio toy to attempt to provide audio for a "multi-billion dollar" corporation when they would have gladly paid for any console on earth to make it right from the start?

If your company wants to be a professional sound equipment provider then you need to spend money on gear like it!  You, my friend, were unprofessional to bring a toy rather than a 100% professional tool.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: James A. Griffin on June 27, 2013, 03:04:57 pm
I have two S16s and an X32, I've been running sound for a multi billion dollar corporation this week and had to unplug my stage box after the first session due to audio drop out followed by a loud pop which occurred twice.  Are you telling me that this was due to the wrong cable being used?

If your company wants to be a professional sound equipment provider then they had better start acting like it.

One definition of "unprofessional" would be introducing a new system or major component thereof at a gig for a multi-billion dollar corporation without having first had a run through at the shop.   
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on June 27, 2013, 11:21:33 pm
Dear Guys,

As I indicated in my last post, the correct cable is important.

I posted Jan Duwe's comments on the correct AES50 cable. 
He has indicated that the cable should be Shielded CAT-5e. 

The AES50 on the X32 is technology coming directly over from MIDAS and KLARK TEKNIK.  I have spoken to the people at MIDAS and they only advise the use of Shielded CAT-5e.  MIDAS actually offers a Belden cable with a cable reel.

I suggest avoiding inexpensive PVC jacketed cables that can be easily crimped, pinched or crushed easily.  You should also use a cable reel to properly wind up and store your AES50 cable.

We do not recommend CAT-6 or anything other than shielded CAT-5e.  While some CAT-6 cables will work, others can be wired differently and may not work. 

I also HIGHLY recommend a cable with Ethercon ends.

So once again Shielded CAT-5e is what you want to use as you connection between X32 and S16, (and S-16 to S16).

I have used the ProCo, (Pro Co 300' Shielded Cat 5e Ethercon Cable).  It has a robust casing, Ethercon ends and is Shielded CAT-5e.

The official MIDAS cable is also a great cable.  You can call our Vegas facility for availability.  702-371-0830


Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER


Interesting.  My question is this.  Why does Midas ship the PVC jacketed UNSHIELDED cat5e without ethercon ends in all of they're Midas Pro series tour packs.  They tell us what to use but they don't send it in the package or use it themselves????  Sounds like BS to me. 

FYI I have had this same issue with and without the shielded Cat5e cable.  Sorry Joe but your answer to this problem is not the solution.  It sounds like a cover story to me until they figure out why the devices lose sync in the event of a static discharge.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: James A. Griffin on June 28, 2013, 11:18:20 am
As I indicated in my last post, the correct cable is important.

I posted Jan Duwe's comments on the correct AES50 cable. 
He has indicated that the cable should be Shielded CAT-5e. 

I have used the ProCo, (Pro Co 300' Shielded Cat 5e Ethercon Cable).  It has a robust casing, Ethercon ends and is Shielded CAT-5e.

FWIW:    I have used only UNshielded Cat5e between the X32 and S16 with no issues whatsoever.     When I first got the S16, I grabbed a 10+ year old cable that had been used in my office and ran for several days.   When a gig suddenly appeared and I was without a "professional" Cat5 cable, I got a 100' / $30 cable from Home Depot which worked just fine.

My current "pro" cable is 225' Belden Data Tuff (7923A), assembled by TecNec with Ethercon ends.   This cable is also unshielded and has given excellent performance. 
http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Computer-Data-Cables/CAT-5-Cables/TecNec/CAT5XTRM-10.xhtml

However, since Behrhinger has suggested shielded only, I began to think that I'd eventually have a cable problem and began to look for a shielded Cat5e.    I found that none of the ProCo cables stated whether or not they were shielded.    Suspicious that No Mention = UnShielded, I contacted ProCo and got this response from Scott Bertch: 

"Currently we do not have standard shielded category cables.  we can make them as custom part number but no standard offerings."

If shielded is indeed the best option in the long haul, I'll get one, but  I'm not finding them ready to go in off-the-shelf models.      Maybe I just buy bulk cable and build my own.    But still... I've had no problems with unshielded cables...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 28, 2013, 11:36:03 am

Interesting.  My question is this.  Why does Midas ship the PVC jacketed UNSHIELDED cat5e without ethercon ends in all of they're Midas Pro series tour packs.  They tell us what to use but they don't send it in the package or use it themselves????  Sounds like BS to me. 

FYI I have had this same issue with and without the shielded Cat5e cable.  Sorry Joe but your answer to this problem is not the solution.  It sounds like a cover story to me until they figure out why the devices lose sync in the event of a static discharge.

+1 and all that...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on June 28, 2013, 11:58:39 am
Something tells me none of the issues expressed in the thread are actually related to the cabling used...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Greg_Cameron on June 28, 2013, 05:09:13 pm
Seems to me a fibre option would be nice. That would solve all the issue related to copper I would think. No ground loops, no EMF/ESD issues. You just have to have strong cable.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on June 28, 2013, 05:20:43 pm
Seems to me a fibre option would be nice. That would solve all the issue related to copper I would think. No ground loops, no EMF/ESD issues. You just have to have strong cable.

Too bad fiber is so much more fragile than Cat5. I've seen a lot of broken fiber cabels due to being man handled by software engineers.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on June 28, 2013, 05:54:14 pm
man handled by software engineers.

Almost an oxymoron...  :o

JR

PS: Just kidding.. I code therefore I am... 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on June 28, 2013, 06:06:39 pm
Something tells me none of the issues expressed in the thread are actually related to the cabling used...

Actually, in finally running across this thread today, I think ALL the issues in this thread are cable-related, based on my experience in accidentally and then intentionally causing the symptoms reported in the OP and researching the why of that.

First, Jan Duwe's quoted response is the most complete statement I've seen from Behringer on the subject, which I've been following closely since early March. He posted a statement in the other forum, but did not go into anywhere as much detail there, and certainly never replied to followup questions. His statement here that they recommend shielded cable (in the other forum I think he specified CAT6, though; the post here is more ambiguous) and the reasons why is good, but, as has been stated by others, appears in no manuals and is different than previous advice from Behringer, in manuals and online.

Second, the protocol used by Behringer/Midas is actually called SuperMAC, which is compliant with the AES50 standard which tells you what it needs to do and not how to get it to do it. I don't get why Behringer/Midas calls it AES50 instead of what it is, but there you go.

There is a SuperMAC webpage, with a series of FAQ's  (homepage: http://www.supermac-hypermac.com  ), one of which talks cable.

Quoting directly:

"What sort of cable should I use for SuperMAC and HyperMAC?

"For short distances, standard unscreened Cat 5 cable is fine. For longer distances, up to 100 metres (the maximum specified by the IEEE 802.3 Ethernet standard for twisted-pair copper cables), we recommend the use of high-grade Cat 5e or Cat 6 cable."

If you are an AES member you can directly download the AES50 standard for free, and see that it is more ambiguous even than what the SuperMAC webpage says above (define "high-grade", for example). There was something at the standards page about how you can't legally quote the standard, so I'll not do it here.

Third, the SuperMAC protocol uses all four pairs in the Ethernet cable. Snipping one or a couple pairs, as someone suggested, will cause it to not work at all.

Similarly, if the other consoles in the OP do NOT use all four pairs, it's possible to see how the same cable would work for one console type but not the X32, if a particular pair were intermittent. I don't know if that's the OP's case, but it's a possibility. I do know that using a cable that had only three pairs caused me to be able to phantom power and adjust trim on an S16, but not have audio transmitted to the console. No screen flicker and no untoward noises.

Fourth, the four pairs in use are two pairs for transmission stage->console (data and sync), and two pairs for data console->stage (data and sync). I don't know how to determine which direction any data disruption is occurring.

We have been unable to find a way to monitor the data transmission in real time, despite the statement on the SuperMAC webpage that one of its advantages is (almost a direct quote) the "easy monitoring of the data stream  by the user".

Fifth, as someone pointed out, the dimming screen and crackling is one result of disruption of the signal transmission through the Ethernet cable. Those are exactly the phenomena I observed when successfully intentionally disrupting the data stream in my shop (once, with many failures trying to disrupt). Based on our experiences in the next section below, I don't believe that shielded/unshielded make a bit of difference in data disruption vs. no data disruption, but rather that it is the pairs' changing relationship to each other and to themselves while being pinched and pulled (causing capacitive and other electric changes) that can disrupt data. Not to say that's the only cause of disruption...

Finally, as a direct result of being mystified by the phenomena described, I put together a workshop for our local AES Section earlier this month, and a description of it and the results, along with my personal conclusions, is at

http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2013/jun_cat5/

Apparently, if you are so moved, you can listen to audio recordings of the full day and hear how things progressed.

As I say in my conclusions in the writeup, the forces that the group settled on that day to cause disruptions were stronger than I used when doing it on my own, and the dynamic of the day caused us to ignore gentler forces. I don't think the tale is fully told, yet, but there are some indications IMHO.

Also, the only cable we were not able to disrupt in the time we spent on it was an unshielded cable, but it does not have a rugged jacket and so may not be appropriate.

A cable we didn't try was the Gepco tactical 4 Ethernet cables in one, in which the pairs are encased in an extruded binder that locks them in place relative to each other, with an additional jacket on each Ethernet cable and another heavy jacket around all. We didn't try it because I bought it and didn't want to subject it to the signifcant forces we were using on sacrificial cables.

I am answering the question for myself for the rest of the summer, until things settle down and I can explore again, by using analog snake and not using S16's. YMMV.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 28, 2013, 08:11:23 pm
Nice response Dan. Where did you find that Behringer was using supermac??
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 28, 2013, 10:31:30 pm
Nice response Dan. Where did you find that Behringer was using supermac??

Bob,
That is the protocol that Midas utilized when developing the XL8.  I do not know if it was purchased prior to or after the release of that desk but, in any case they own it so now Behringer is using it to.  I may be wrong but I believe that Midas told me (pre Behringer) that they were licensing it for free to interested users.  Licensing to maintain integrity, free to hopefully garner more industry support for the protocol.  SuperMAC does vary from the AES50 standard in that SuperMAC only allows for 96kHz sample rates.  Not sure if there are othe differences. 

Here's a link http://www.supermac-hypermac.com/information-supermac.php

I wonder if there is an issue with the protocol running at 44.1/48kHz rather than at 96kHz.

Lee
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on June 29, 2013, 01:14:54 am
Thanks, guys.

Bob,
That is the protocol that Midas utilized when developing the XL8.  I do not know if it was purchased prior to or after the release of that desk but, in any case they own it so now Behringer is using it to.

Bob, I found it in a post by one of the regulars at the other forum, who referred to the SuperMAC webpage.

IIRC, the protocol was developed by Sony for the Oxford console, and when they pulled the plug on pro audio they apparently had no further use for it and sold it to Klark Teknik. When KT and Midas were bought by Behringer, the rest is history. But the history of the timing of the XL8 development/use of the protocol/purchase by Behringer is unknown to me.

One can imagine that when they went looking at what to use with the future console, they found that SuperMAC/HyperMAC were available for purchase which made more sense than to license. But that's speculation.

BTW, the XL8 page http://www.midasconsoles.com/xl8-midasnet.php says it's using HyperMAC, which is the 96k version. SuperMAC is the 44.1 and 48.

I'm looking at the product pages for other Midas consoles, and can't find anything about sampling rate for the Pro 1. The Pro2 definitely 96, the Pro6 probably is although doesn't specifically say except that it uses a HyperMAC snake.

Speaking of snakes, the Pro1 says "The PRO1 is MIDAS’ first stand-alone digital console with 24 inputs located on the rear panel. However there are a number of optional MIDAS digital I/O units – either with fixed or modular configurations - which can be connected by inexpensive Cat5-e cable that will expand the input count to 48. To further increase flexibility a number of I/O boxes can be connected to the PRO1, up to 100m (300ft) cable distance from the console, allowing audio point-to-point routing of up to 100 inputs x 102 outputs from anywhere within the Network."

No mention of shielded cable, and none on any other console page.

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 29, 2013, 06:13:03 am
Thanks Dan. I had not looked deeply into supermac after learning some time ago that in order to work to it's full capability supermac required some special hardware (translation), special cable, and had a very low throughput when handling standard IP packets (5mb). I notice that's mentioned in the writeup but nowhere is it mentioned by Behringer in their product docs. Perhaps if Behringer had stated they were using supermac and recommended the proper cable from the beginning this thread would not exist.

When I continued to read more and more stories of problematic stage box connectivity I opted for the Soundcraft Expression, my intro to the digital world. The X32 may have more bells and whistles, but I feel the Soundcraft to be a better live board and with better proven expansion capabilities, stage box included. By the way, and before it's said, the Soundcraft expansion boxes ship with the required option card for the console.
 
For those not familiar with shielded cable I have posted the pictures below. This is not specialized cable using specialized connectors.
 
 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 29, 2013, 07:40:35 am

BTW, the XL8 page http://www.midasconsoles.com/xl8-midasnet.php says it's using HyperMAC, which is the 96k version. SuperMAC is the 44.1 and 48.


According to KT in a 2013 publication they (KT) have internally standardized on a sample rate of 96kHz for both SuperMAC and HyperMAC.   This provides them with 24 channels bi-directionally for SuperMAC and 192 channels bi-directionally for HyperMAC.  Latency is also lower for HyperMAC. 
SuperMAC is supposed to be AES50 compliant and supports sample rates from 44.1kHz to 384kHz.  It does this with Handel counts from 48 to 6.

I don't believe that the protocol was purchased from Sony until after the XL8 had already been released.

Lee
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on June 29, 2013, 10:16:44 am
Dan nice work. Trying to make sense of this, if I read your report correctly, it isn't a matter of shielding and therefore noise corruption, but spatial(?) relationship of conductors to each other within the cables.  So apparently internal conductor to conductor interference. Perhaps a characteristic impedance discontinuity?

Ignoring the possibility of dealing with this electronically it seems a more robust cable design might help.

If these consist of twisted pairs, and the geometry/integrity of that twist matters. perhaps something like the star-quad 4 conductor twist would be more stable. Since this approach could screw with capacitance and probably characteristic impedance, perhaps stay with two real conductors per pair. and two dummy non-conductors to facilitate the consistent spiral wrap. 

Sounds like a bad day for copper.

JR
Title: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Rob Spence on June 29, 2013, 11:03:37 am
One thing that was only mentioned in a note by Uli when he said they needed shielded for protection from interference.

 I wonder if the requirement was really because the unshielded cable radiated beyond what was allowed by a regulatory agency and was discovered late in testing near product ship so there was already marketing material that didn't say shielded cable?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on June 29, 2013, 11:14:21 am
Dan nice work. Trying to make sense of this, if I read your report correctly, it isn't a matter of shielding and therefore noise corruption, but spatial(?) relationship of conductors to each other within the cables.  So apparently internal conductor to conductor interference. Perhaps a characteristic impedance discontinuity?


Thanks, JR. Your positive comment means a lot to me.

You have it part right IMO (with my still-incomplete understanding of what's going on): within the limited amount of time we spent on this part, RF type interference was not an issue, the issue was the moment of dynamic change of the wire pairs' relationship with each themselves and each other. The (presumed) impedance change caused by varying the spacing of things was enough to temporarily disrupt the transmission. When change stopped, signal transmission was returned to normal.

And, mysteriously to me, when the spacing of things inside the cable was permanently affected by the repeated flattening of a scissor lift, nothing happened during or after the change, and the cable still measured fine afterward.



Ignoring the possibility of dealing with this electronically it seems a more robust cable design might help.


It's important to understand that all Ethernet devices have surprisingly high quality balancing transformers on both ends, and therefore all four pairs are balanced circuits. *Every* device, according to our non-100%-of-everything-in-the-world research. Regarding cable design:


If these consist of twisted pairs, and the geometry/integrity of that twist matters. perhaps something like the star-quad 4 conductor twist would be more stable. Since this approach could screw with capacitance and probably characteristic impedance, perhaps stay with two real conductors per pair. and two dummy non-conductors to facilitate the consistent spiral wrap. 

The Ethernet cable designers are ahead of you.

The one cable we couldn't disrupt (again, in our limited time trying) had a sort of "double H" (HH with no space in between) physical divider running the full length of the cable, which kept the 4 pairs physically separate. Overall it's maybe 3/8" diameter, with a fairly thin looking jacket, so it may not be useful for our purposes. But it does exist, and the Belden guy who was with us learned something from the day, too, and is going to talk with their designers. (It was one of their cables that we couldn't disrupt.)

I also think the GEPCO tactical with double jacket and immobilizing core that I mentioned will do the same thing, but have not proved it.

Sounds like a bad day for copper.

Actually, I thought it was pretty good.

We learned that the solid wire cables of today are very different than those of yesteryear. The mfr's have perfected the art of annealing to such an extent that wire fatigue is almost a thing of the past for solid vs. stranded, at least for this size wire.

We also learned that you can forcibly flatten your Ethernet cable to a very small thickness and it still passes the rigorous testing of the proper Fluke meter with flying colors.

Regarding shielded vs unshielded: still to be tested is the effect on audio and the console/stage box combo when the latter two are powered by AC with vastly different ground potentials/voltage neutral-ground and then connected with shielded snake. That was on our agenda but we forgot, and I haven't had time since to pursue it.

Still on shielded vs. unshielded: in response to Rob's comment about Uli's statement, from my conclusions in the PNW AES report:

"From an American perspective, the European obsession with shielding cables is overblown, and is a response to a problem that has not been demonstrated to exist at a significant enough level to need a solution. Unshielded cables work just fine in almost every application, except for specific environments with very high levels of specific RF interference. The vast, vast, vast majority of users will not benefit from using shielded cables, nor will they suffer ill effects from not doing so. That said, there are specific legal requirements to use shielded cable in certain situations in many legal jurisdictions, and the wise user will pay close attention to those requirements."
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on June 29, 2013, 11:40:28 am
I am reminded of the old visual gag of tying a knot into a wire cable, or bending it like a garden hose... Apparently some wire interfaces do react to physical manipulation.

If I were working at Behringer, and responsible for this little reliability issue, I'd set up a dummy interface in a lab somewhere, send a steady digital signal over all lines, in all directions used, then log the results to look for what kind of perturbations are caused by manipulating the cables.

Understanding the nature and scope of these perturbations could go a long way toward understanding the problem and hopefully resolving it. Best case is a software tweak that learns to ignore or reduce the audible severity of the perturbations (that only occur when somebody disturbs the cable). Next a hardware tweak to eliminate them, and finally enough understanding to make the interface fully reliable whatever that takes, even if that involves redesigning the wire cables (my last choice, but perhaps the customers most direct remedy).

Your finding that physically distorted cables still work when not being actively manipulated suggests to me that perhaps a low impact fix is possible. The problem has been discussed for a while, I hope a practical soultion is forthcoming. The marketplace  has embraced these products, they need to work as intended. 

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: James A. Griffin on June 29, 2013, 11:44:27 am
A cable we didn't try was the Gepco tactical 4 Ethernet cables in one, in which the pairs are encased in an extruded binder that locks them in place relative to each other, with an additional jacket on each Ethernet cable and another heavy jacket around all.

Is that Gepco CT504HD?
Title: HyperMAC vs SuperMAC
Post by: Scott B Nelson on June 29, 2013, 12:07:53 pm
I think the difference between HyperMAC and SuperMAC is that HyperMAC is gigabit ethernet but SuperMAC is only 100 Megabit.  You get lower latency and thicker pipe (=more channels) on gigabit ethernet.

What will they call 10 gigabit ethernet?  UeberMAC??  ;)
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 29, 2013, 01:29:56 pm
Dan,
I am having a problem visualizing enough movement within the pairs of a CAT5 or 6 cable to cause pair to pair interference or a change in electrical characteristics, although entirely possible.  If that is the case then a cable type like the GEPCO could be the overall cure.

You mentioned a Belden cable type that had no issues. Belden has always been my cable of choice for whatever the condition used. Here's a handy Belden reference at the link below. The cable you tested should be among those listed, probably one of the bonded pair cable types.  Maybe this one, 7921A.

http://www.belden.com/products/industrialcable/ethernet-cables.cfm#Ethernet (http://www.belden.com/products/industrialcable/ethernet-cables.cfm#ethernet)
 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on June 29, 2013, 05:32:47 pm
Is that Gepco CT504HD?

Yes
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on June 29, 2013, 06:22:11 pm
Dan,
I am having a problem visualizing enough movement within the pairs of a CAT5 or 6 cable to cause pair to pair interference or a change in electrical characteristics, although entirely possible. 


Hi Bob,

Let me help you visualize.

Each pair has capacitance both within itself (wire to wire), and between itself and each wire of each other pair, similar to the capacitance between the charged membrane and the oppositely charged plate of a condenser microphone. As those move in relation to each other in response to sound, the mic's electrical output changes.

Similarly, when the two wires of a pair move relative to one another, or a pair relative to another pair within its electrical field, that capacitance value changes, apparently enough to have an effect on those tiny fast signals being used in the digital snake.

Also, it's important to know that all cables have electron flow not only within and on the surface of the copper wire itself, but also through the length of the insulation. At the high speeds these cables are working, the difference between one type of insulation and another and even the difference between one thickness and another of the same type of insulation becomes significant in slowing down the flow or not, and will be the difference between being able to send data at a particular frequency or not. There is also a significant issue with cable twist rate needing to be quite precise, and different from one pair to another to minimize crosstalk, and what kind  and shape of filler material there is to also minimize crosstalk.

If you take the time to listen to Steve Lampen's presentation (the first real part of the program on the recording) he talks at some length about this kind of thing, which is why a CAT5 is different from a CAT5e which is different from a CAT6 which is different from a CAT6a. The copper is still copper and pretty much the same if not exactly the same across CAT types, but all the other stuff around the copper is different and in a very careful balance to achieve a specific level of performance.

If that is the case then a cable type like the GEPCO could be the overall cure.

My personal feeling at this point is that a cable that makes it difficult/impossible to relocate the wires within the cable and in relation to each other is on the right track.

Getting back to the OP, though, I'm not sure that what I'm talking about relates to his problem, unless there was a specific pair in his cable that has an issue with SuperMAC but that pair is not used in the protocol for his other consoles. Absent that, I don't know that the information I'm providing helps him.

You mentioned a Belden cable type that had no issues. Belden has always been my cable of choice for whatever the condition used. Here's a handy Belden reference at the link below. The cable you tested should be among those listed, probably one of the bonded pair cable types.  Maybe this one, 7921A.

http://www.belden.com/products/industrialcable/ethernet-cables.cfm#Ethernet (http://www.belden.com/products/industrialcable/ethernet-cables.cfm#ethernet)

I agree with you about the generally high quality of Belden cable of any type, and note that they have a patent on the process of bonding each wire of each Ethernet pair to its counterpart so that they cannot move relative to each other.

However, the cable that I originally had the problem with was a Belden Data Tuff, this guy

http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Computer-Data-Cables/CAT-5-Cables/TecNec/CAT5XTRM-10.xhtml

in the 200' length, which is made from this bonded-pair wire

http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Bulk-Wire-Cable/Bulk-Category-5-5e-6-Cable/Belden/7923A-PER-FT.xhtml

The one that we couldn't get to burp (which is not "no issues", it may have an issue with a thin jacket) is the 10GX32 Cat6a U/UTP, the data sheet of which is at

http://www.belden.com/search-results.cfm?q=10GX32+Cat6a+U%2FUTP&site=beldenwebsite&0=filter&num=10&search-btn=Search

but the cable itself does not seem to be easily purchasable from what I think of as the major sellers. YMMV, though.

And I have the 200' chunk of 10GX32 that Steve arranged for us to have (we had a large sample of different cables, which was cool), but have not done anything more to look closer at it since our event.

To close this post, before embarking on the prep for my event a couple months ago, I had no idea of the differences between CAT types, or even what was going on inside the cables. The closer and closer I looked at it, the more and more is going on inside those cables and remarkably, not a lot of people really know about what is going on in there and why. That is why I wanted to do this event, to show that when you look closely, a cable is not a cable is not a cable.

If that makes any sense.

Dan

PS I gave Steve 45 minutes or an hour to talk about Ethernet cables. He often gives a seminar where he spends 8 hours a day for four days doing the same thing, so there is a lot going on in Ethernet cable that is worth knowing, and we just scratched the surface.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 29, 2013, 09:29:30 pm
Thanks for the reply Dan. I'm more than familiar with the capacitive relationship within pairs, etc., networking 101.  What I can't visualize is the pairs separating/moving enough to cause data loss, but obviously they can. If he had a sample then it's obviously in production. I would think that he could tell you who has stock.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 29, 2013, 09:50:19 pm

The one cable we couldn't disrupt (again, in our limited time trying) had a sort of "double H" (HH with no space in between) physical divider running the full length of the cable, which kept the 4 pairs physically separate.

Maybe I am misunderstanding but all the CAT6 cable thaI have utilized has a physical divider running the length of the cable.  I would describe it as an x or a t more than a double H so like I said, maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean.

Edit below.

Never mind.  Just went and pulled up the data sheet on the Beldan you referenced.  I still don't see how that causes less movement than the standard X layout.  Perhaps it is the relationship of the pairs since the H's are offset.

Lee
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on June 29, 2013, 11:16:02 pm
I still don't see how that causes less movement than the standard X layout.  Perhaps it is the relationship of the pairs since the H's are offset.

The offset is exactly it.

Steve talked about how the X means that each pair is closer to two pairs than the third; the offset H's means each pair is in exactly the same relationship to all of the other pairs. At the higher frequencies, this kind of stuff is important and makes a difference, he said. Also, the material for the H's was physically thicker than any of the X's we saw.

JR mentioned a joke about tying cables in knots. Several people who I regard as being particularly smart told me at different times that you don't want to have 90 degree bends in your Ethernet cable, as that can cause reflections and mess up your data, and that you don't want to run your cable near or around ferrous objects, as that inductance is bad.

We bent the shit out of several cables, and I separately took one cheap one and wrapped it 40+ times tightly around a 12" chunk of black iron water pipe. All those conditions didn't affect anything, and the cables passed the Fluke meter (DTX-1800) test just fine.

So go figure. There's a lot of old wives tales in this area that may have had some basis in fact at one time. And again, YMMV.

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 29, 2013, 11:44:14 pm
The offset is exactly it.

Steve talked about how the X means that each pair is closer to two pairs than the third; the offset H's means each pair is in exactly the same relationship to all of the other pairs. At the higher frequencies, this kind of stuff is important and makes a difference, he said. Also, the material for the H's was physically thicker than any of the X's we saw.

JR mentioned a joke about tying cables in knots. Several people who I regard as being particularly smart told me at different times that you don't want to have 90 degree bends in your Ethernet cable, as that can cause reflections and mess up your data, and that you don't want to run your cable near or around ferrous objects, as that inductance is bad.

We bent the shit out of several cables, and I separately took one cheap one and wrapped it 40+ times tightly around a 12" chunk of black iron water pipe. All those conditions didn't affect anything, and the cables passed the Fluke meter (DTX-1800) test just fine.

So go figure. There's a lot of old wives tales in this area that may have had some basis in fact at one time. And again, YMMV.

So, like I was surmising, it's not about the movement being different in the double H layout, its about the relationship of the pairs.

Lee
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on June 30, 2013, 01:42:23 am
So, like I was surmising, it's not about the movement being different in the double H layout, its about the relationship of the pairs.

Lee

Maybe. There may be less movement because the H's are thicker and isolate each pair from the physical disruption, certainly better than no filler. I'm pretty sure we disrupted a cable with X filler.

The relationship equalization of the H's or by some other method is specially needed for CAT6 performance and higher, which does not relate to the X32 except that higher Category cables are better and better at all things CAT. There did not seem to be a penalty for going higher CATegory other than cost, and conversely, there was nothing said about lower Category devices working better (or worse) with higher Category cable.

It did seem that if you were approaching the ragged edge in terms of length or number of connections (no more than four cables in a run, 100 meters max total without a repeater) that the higher Category cables might give you some performance margin where you'd have none with lower Category cables. Or maybe not, we certainly didn't look closely at this.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on July 25, 2013, 03:54:54 pm
Did we ever get a definitive answer here? We're experiencing this same issue.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Darren Scaresbrook on July 25, 2013, 08:23:20 pm
Did we ever get a definitive answer here? We're experiencing this same issue.

No definitive answer, I'm afraid.
Behringers reply has been to use good quality cable that is wired correctly to the "B" standard.
Unfortunately, even doing this, the problem persists.
Other systems in the EXACT same conditions do not suffer from this problem.
Darren
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 12, 2013, 10:04:05 pm
Well the cold dry air is back in the midwest.  And it has brought with it my X32 ESD "Static discharge problem" As I explained in the this thread many months ago. 
If I ESD my body to the desk with a S16 connected I lose sync between the X32 and the S16.  This happened again last night at a event.  So today I decided to do some testing in the shop.  I know the question still stands shielded or non-shielded cat5e cable.  I have found the answer.  You can see it for your self in the video I have posted to Youtube.  Check out the link below.  I think you will be surprised.

Lets hear everyones thoughts on this…….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nWF_0agjk
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Scott Wagner on November 12, 2013, 10:11:46 pm
Well the cold dry air is back in the midwest.  And it has brought with it my X32 ESD "Static discharge problem" As I explained in the this thread many months ago. 
If I ESD my body to the desk with a S16 connected I lose sync between the X32 and the S16.  This happened again last night at a event.  So today I decided to do some testing in the shop.  I know the question still stands shielded or non-shielded cat5e cable.  I have found the answer.  You can see it for your self in the video I have posted to Youtube.  Check out the link below.  I think you will be surprised.

Lets hear everyones thoughts on this…….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nWF_0agjk
That video link is "private".
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 12, 2013, 10:16:11 pm
That video link is "private".

Fixed  Thanx
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 12, 2013, 10:56:36 pm
Brian,

You've provided a very clear example of the issue with the video. I have no dog in the fight, but dealing with ESD in the data centers I work in is a real issue in a very real world. This type problem is almost always due to poor equipment / chassis / component grounding. Generally traced to a floating daughterboard or section of the circuit isolated from earth. The use of a chassis grounded Ethernet cable enhances the effect almost proving the problem can not be resolved through the use of a common ground (A/C receptacle), or common ground (chassis / earth).

I would wonder if you tried your test using unshielded cable and discharging to the stage box instead of the console. If you can not replicate the problem from the stage box side I would then suggest the issue is within the X32 and not the stage box. Once that has been decided it's possible that the daughterboard used for the port sub assembly (if that is the case), is not grounded to the chassis and as mentioned above "floating from ground". This is all speculation on my part, but I think your video establishes the problem is real, giving the folks at Behringer a starting point at least.

In the Soundcraft world the stage boxes are equipped with an external word clock port which can be used to tie the console and stage box together. If this is the case with Behringer, have you tried using the combination and testing with that type of configuration. I wish you luck.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 12, 2013, 11:29:00 pm
Brian,

You've provided a very clear example of the issue with the video. I have no dog in the fight, but dealing with ESD in the data centers I work in is a real issue in a very real world. This type problem is almost always due to poor equipment / chassis / component grounding. Generally traced to a floating daughterboard or section of the circuit isolated from earth. The use of a chassis grounded Ethernet cable enhances the effect almost proving the problem can not be resolved through the use of a common ground (A/C receptacle), or common ground (chassis / earth).

I would wonder if you tried your test using unshielded cable and discharging to the stage box instead of the console. If you can not replicate the problem from the stage box side I would then suggest the issue is within the X32 and not the stage box. Once that has been decided it's possible that the daughterboard used for the port sub assembly (if that is the case), is not grounded to the chassis and as mentioned above "floating from ground". This is all speculation on my part, but I think your video establishes the problem is real, giving the folks at Behringer a starting point at least.

In the Soundcraft world the stage boxes are equipped with an external word clock port which can be used to tie the console and stage box together. If this is the case with Behringer, have you tried using the combination and testing with that type of configuration. I wish you luck.

Bob I have indeed tried the ESD point on the chassis of the stage box with and without unshielded cat5e cable.  Same result every time.  I do believe your onto something with the AES50 board not being directly grounded in both the X32 and the S16.  I think I might pop one open and have a look inside.  Thanks for your thought.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 12, 2013, 11:44:43 pm
Here is a shorter video with a track playing so you can hear the audio drop. 

This is with a Shielded cat5e cable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVRDzYhgxN0&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on November 13, 2013, 02:13:21 am
This really makes me not want to get this desk. Not with the S16s anyway.

That explains why the pops and sync losses seemed random. At first we thought it was the HVAC system but the pops weren't always exactly in sync with it.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 13, 2013, 03:02:07 am
Well the cold dry air is back in the midwest.  And it has brought with it my X32 ESD "Static discharge problem" As I explained in the this thread many months ago. 
If I ESD my body to the desk with a S16 connected I lose sync between the X32 and the S16.  This happened again last night at a event.  So today I decided to do some testing in the shop.  I know the question still stands shielded or non-shielded cat5e cable.  I have found the answer.  You can see it for your self in the video I have posted to Youtube.  Check out the link below.  I think you will be surprised.

Lets hear everyones thoughts on this…….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-nWF_0agjk

Brian, I think you've done some wonderful work here. The ball is obviously in Behringer's court to respond and I hope the response is a fix.

Did it seem a little better with the unshielded cable?

Is this the digital equivalent of Neil Muncy's Pin 1 Problem? (Not necessarily directed to you.)

Thanks,
Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 13, 2013, 09:21:46 am
We have a smoking gun...

The hardest part about fixing obscure intermittent problems is replicating them in the lab, so if Behringer can now fix this, the interface "should" be more robust.

Uli should give you a big wet kiss for this piece of the puzzle. While this may not be the primary or only cause for sync issues, it definitely gives them something to fix.

Good work... For a change I will not offer an opinion about what is happening. The static hit should be a relatively small current. Back in the old days, we'd be happy that the static hit, didn't kill any sensitive circuitry (that used to happen).

JR

PS: For future videos you can edit out a lot of it doing nothing to tighten up the presentation... I did like the symbolic shot of the unshielded cable lying on the floor...    8)
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 13, 2013, 11:04:36 am
Brian, I think you've done some wonderful work here. The ball is obviously in Behringer's court to respond and I hope the response is a fix.

Did it seem a little better with the unshielded cable?

Is this the digital equivalent of Neil Muncy's Pin 1 Problem? (Not necessarily directed to you.)

Thanks,
Dan

It did seem to be slightly better with the unshielded cable. ie less drop outs.  Seeing that it happens completely at random I can really say for sure. 

It did seem like when using the AES50B port it did not do it as much.  But it did still do it.  Also I found that the more you "shock" it the less it does it over time.  I think that may be do to a charged particle build up on the equipment.  Because if you unplug both the X32 and the S16 form the wall outlets and then plug them back in, it seems to drop out on the first hit.

I think that 1 time is to many. 

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Greg_Cameron on November 13, 2013, 12:42:39 pm
Nice work on the QA work Behringer should have undertaken before the product shipped. I find it shocking (pun intended) that they either didn't catch this or knew about it and let a ship anyway. A standard test instrument for ESD simulation would have caught this issue right away. Something I alluded to in a previous post when I asked Joe Sanborn if there had been proper ESD testing done. That post was never answered, so I'm assuming at this point ESD testing wasn't done based both on the lack of response as well as proven field problems with ESD. If it turns out that they did test for ESD issues and everything was fine, but something in the final manufacturing process changed that compromised ESD protection, I might give them a pass. But even that being the case, QA protocols should have initiated retesting of the modified hardware again before shipping.

Greg

(http://www.testunlimited.com/images/products/Schaffner_NSG435.jpg)
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 13, 2013, 01:11:28 pm
Nice work on the QA work Behringer should have undertaken before the product shipped. I find it shocking (pun intended) that they either didn't catch this or knew about it and let a ship anyway. A standard test instrument for ESD simulation would have caught this issue right away. Something I alluded to in a previous post when I asked Joe Sanborn if there had been proper ESD testing done. That post was never answered, so I'm assuming at this point ESD testing wasn't done based both on the lack of response as well as proven field problems with ESD. If it turns out that they did test for ESD issues and everything was fine, but something in the final manufacturing process changed that compromised ESD protection, I might give them a pass. But even that being the case, QA protocols should have initiated retesting of the modified hardware again before shipping.

Greg

(http://www.testunlimited.com/images/products/Schaffner_NSG435.jpg)

Not to defend Behringer (I really hate doing that). ESD testing is generally performed as pass/fail... i.e. product did not get killed by the static hit.
Quote from: article sez
The failure modes for the HBM testing of ICs typically comprise junction damage, metal penetration, melting of metal layers, contact spiking, and damage to the gate oxides.
Note: HBM means human body model, there are probably 20+ different iec standards for ESD system testing. But my sense is the focus is mainly on permanent failure not transient interference. http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4368466/Understanding-and-comparing-the-differences-in-ESD-testing (http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4368466/Understanding-and-comparing-the-differences-in-ESD-testing)

The S-16 probably didn't exist when the X-32 was tested for ESD.

In hindsight this may seem like an obvious thing to test for, and I do not excuse the behavior, but I sure don't recall any of the several complaints about S-16 losing sync mentioning that the lost sync event occurred coincident with a static discharge.

I prefer to look at this like the glass is half full. Perhaps this "new" information will lead to a final resolution. Even if it isn't the only cause of lost sync it appears to be one cause, that they can replicate, and hopefully fix. Fixing this may correct other undiagnosed vectors for sync failures.

or not...

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on November 13, 2013, 01:48:50 pm
FWIW, this pop/drop sync problem is about the only thing keeping my wallet in my pocket, and making me consider a Soundcraft or GLD80 which economically don't make a lot of sense at my level...

My main rationale for upgrading my current rig is to lose the copper and a 12 space rack. I absolutely can't afford an incident like this at a gig, that would really hurt my tiny little business which has been based on 100% reliability for the last decade.  I get gigs because they happen on time, safely, without any technical problems once the band shows up, and sound good.  No surprises.

I am hopeful Behringer can fix this, with a recall or whatever it takes.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 13, 2013, 03:32:00 pm

I think that 1 time is to many.

Agreed.

Are you willing to do some more testing?

One thing I thought of that could be a temporary workaround while awaiting a factory solution is to have a grounded plate sitting at the mixer for the operator to discharge upon rather than the console.

Can you take a piece of metal of whatever size, attach one end of a green wire to it, the other end of the wire to the ground pin of an AC plug (not connecting the blades of the plug), plug it into the AC source for the console, and then do the static discharge on it and see what happens? That will tell us if the console is freaked out by a discharge in its vicinity. If not, then having that plate on the side cheek of the console or somewhere similar would allow us to discharge ourselves before causing a problem. Not ideal, but the show would go on.

Another test would be to do the same thing you did but without the S16 involved. The meter lights lighting up make me wonder if maybe the problem is within the console, too.

Another one is discharging to a microphone connected through an analog snake to the console to test if someone on stage can cause the problem.

Can you monitor the outputs while doing your testing, too? A speaker through an amp that's barely cracked open, or a Q Box, or something that won't generate a lot of volume but will still indicate that there was a problem?

Good job on this, and TIA,
Dan

BTW, in my sync issues, I don't believe the loss of sync had anything to do with ESD, as I wasn't in contact with the console.

BBTW, I have a job coming up again in a little over a week where there is lots of carpet, and last Spring when I did it (3 times a year), I was able to cause the console to reboot by inserting a USB stick, which was the only point of contact between my body and the console.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tom Bourke on November 13, 2013, 04:07:06 pm
Can you take a piece of metal of whatever size, attach one end of a green wire to it, the other end of the wire to the ground pin of an AC plug (not connecting the blades of the plug), plug it into the AC source for the console, and then do the static discharge on it and see what happens?
I would not hard wire in that way.  ESD safe wrist bands have a high impedance resistor to help protect the person wearing it from direct mains contact.  Both from a fault on the test bench and I assume from a wiring fault.  I would do the testing with the console grounded and an ESD wrist strap.  I have this one my self http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102871
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 13, 2013, 04:11:11 pm
As a short term mitigation, they sell conductive anti-static floor mats that you can stand on, but these are not very cheap. They also sell anti-static sprays that you can spray on the carpet to knock down static build-up. perhaps the spray is cheap insurance.

To discharge yourself perhaps harmlessly and painlessly, I used to connect a several MegOhm resistor to a light switch ground screw, to discharge myself. I used to have an old shop vacuum that doubled as a van de graaf generator, so every time I vacuumed my office I was all charged up and ready for a painful discharge.

I do not know if this R would make any difference to the sync issue, and we really need to wait for a response from Behringer.

It would be interesting to see if a static spark to a mic cable ground has the same effect on sync, since that is another likely scenario in use.   

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 13, 2013, 04:23:59 pm
It did seem to be slightly better with the unshielded cable. ie less drop outs.  Seeing that it happens completely at random I can really say for sure. 

It did seem like when using the AES50B port it did not do it as much.  But it did still do it.  Also I found that the more you "shock" it the less it does it over time.  I think that may be do to a charged particle build up on the equipment.  Because if you unplug both the X32 and the S16 form the wall outlets and then plug them back in, it seems to drop out on the first hit.

I think that 1 time is to many.

I've had church systems which popped from static discharge, especially in dry MN winters.  Problem has gone away when I added rack and mixer chassis drain wires to the outlet "grounding screw".

Can you alleviate the problem by adding a mixer chassis "drain" wire?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Diack on November 13, 2013, 04:29:32 pm
Interesting - has the same test been applied to any of the other low end (or ANY end) digital mixer + CATn + stagebox combinations ?.
M
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 13, 2013, 06:24:38 pm
As a short term mitigation, they sell conductive anti-static floor mats that you can stand on, but these are not very cheap. They also sell anti-static sprays that you can spray on the carpet to knock down static build-up. perhaps the spray is cheap insurance.

To discharge yourself perhaps harmlessly and painlessly, I used to connect a several MegOhm resistor to a light switch ground screw, to discharge myself. I used to have an old shop vacuum that doubled as a van de graaf generator, so every time I vacuumed my office I was all charged up and ready for a painful discharge.

I do not know if this R would make any difference to the sync issue, and we really need to wait for a response from Behringer.

It would be interesting to see if a static spark to a mic cable ground has the same effect on sync, since that is another likely scenario in use.   

JR

In a pinch you can buy some static cling shit at the grocery store, put a piece of carpet on the bench, spray the bench and the floor. Works good for about 24hrs.
 
Mark, buy the Soundcraft.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 14, 2013, 02:40:00 am
Agreed.

Are you willing to do some more testing?

One thing I thought of that could be a temporary workaround while awaiting a factory solution is to have a grounded plate sitting at the mixer for the operator to discharge upon rather than the console.

Can you take a piece of metal of whatever size, attach one end of a green wire to it, the other end of the wire to the ground pin of an AC plug (not connecting the blades of the plug), plug it into the AC source for the console, and then do the static discharge on it and see what happens? That will tell us if the console is freaked out by a discharge in its vicinity. If not, then having that plate on the side cheek of the console or somewhere similar would allow us to discharge ourselves before causing a problem. Not ideal, but the show would go on.

Another test would be to do the same thing you did but without the S16 involved. The meter lights lighting up make me wonder if maybe the problem is within the console, too.

Another one is discharging to a microphone connected through an analog snake to the console to test if someone on stage can cause the problem.

Can you monitor the outputs while doing your testing, too? A speaker through an amp that's barely cracked open, or a Q Box, or something that won't generate a lot of volume but will still indicate that there was a problem?

Good job on this, and TIA,
Dan

BTW, in my sync issues, I don't believe the loss of sync had anything to do with ESD, as I wasn't in contact with the console.

BBTW, I have a job coming up again in a little over a week where there is lots of carpet, and last Spring when I did it (3 times a year), I was able to cause the console to reboot by inserting a USB stick, which was the only point of contact between my body and the console.

So I have done some more testing tonight. 

Just watch and all of your questions should be answered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp3NF3AKCWs
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: ChristianBoche on November 14, 2013, 07:41:32 am
So I have done some more testing tonight. 

Just watch and all of your questions should be answered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp3NF3AKCWs

My Advice:
Just use Ethernet-connectors and the problem is solved.

Put some of these-->

http://www.neutrik.com/en/industrial/ethercon/ethercon-cable-connector-carrier/ne8mc-b-1

on your CAT cable, and the static will discharge to ground over the X32 chassis.
You can even install the Neutrik connectors by yourself without any crimping or soldering.
Dead easy to do-->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02dksd-eTzg

Invest 10$ in these connectors and you are good to go:-)
No more drop outs due static.
I can dublicate the dropout problem with simple CAT5/CAT6 cables.
But as soon as you switch to CAT cables with Ethercon connectors, the static will discharge over the X32 chassis like it should be.

Christian
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 14, 2013, 08:04:45 am
So I have done some more testing tonight. 

Just watch and all of your questions should be answered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp3NF3AKCWs

Video is blocked now.  Another link?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 14, 2013, 09:58:14 am
Video is blocked now.  Another link?

Link is working for me, Ryan.  Give it another try.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 14, 2013, 10:00:26 am
Link worked for me...

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 14, 2013, 12:28:12 pm
My Advice:
Just use Ethernet-connectors and the problem is solved.

Put some of these-->

http://www.neutrik.com/en/industrial/ethercon/ethercon-cable-connector-carrier/ne8mc-b-1

on your CAT cable, and the static will discharge to ground over the X32 chassis.
You can even install the Neutrik connectors by yourself without any crimping or soldering.
Dead easy to do-->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02dksd-eTzg

Invest 10$ in these connectors and you are good to go:-)
No more drop outs due static.
I can dublicate the dropout problem with simple CAT5/CAT6 cables.
But as soon as you switch to CAT cables with Ethercon connectors, the static will discharge over the X32 chassis like it should be.

Christian

Christian thank you for your input but you are wrong.  The ethercon is simply a strain relief nothing more.  In fact if you check continuity from inside the cat5e connector (the little shield connection point tabs on both inner walls of the connector) and chassis of the X32 you can see they are connected.  So they tells me that the AES50 connectors and board are already grounded.  I believe this problem is a daughter-board grounding issue allowing the clock chip to take the hit and lose time.

I use the ethercon connector on all of my cables in a working environment.  I didn't in the video's just to prove the fact that the cable is shielded or non-shielded.

I will retest tonight and post a video of my findings with the ethercon ends on the shielded and non-shielded cables.  Which I have already done off of camera and I know for a fact that it still drops out.

Stay tuned....
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: ChristianBoche on November 14, 2013, 12:57:32 pm
Christian thank you for your input but you are wrong.  The ethercon is simply a strain relief nothing more.  In fact if you check continuity from inside the cat5e connector (the little shield connection point tabs on both inner walls of the connector) and chassis of the X32 you can see they are connected.  So they tells me that the AES50 connectors and board are already grounded.  I believe this problem is a daughter-board grounding issue allowing the clock chip to take the hit and lose time.

I use the ethercon connector on all of my cables in a working environment.  I didn't in the video's just to prove the fact that the cable is shielded or non-shielded.

I will retest tonight and post a video of my findings with the ethercon ends on the shielded and non-shielded cables.  Which I have already done off of camera and I know for a fact that it still drops out.

Stay tuned....


Well...actually the Ethercon Connector on my cables touches the metal part of the RJ45, so there is a grounding. It was designed that way.
Like I said, I can duplicate the sync loss with basic CAT cables. But I tried it two times with Ethercon cables for almost 40 Minutes...not one single drop out.
And guess what...I even got a crappy video of that:-)
Made with my mobile phone, and bad english spoken too - sorry for that-->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Qo9aH3Ous&feature=youtu.be

In addition. We do have three X32 in our company, did about 200 gig with them and never ever had a dropout due to static...just sayin'
But I'm curious what results your retest will show. BTW: I use these Belden CAT cables-->
http://www.thomann.de/gb/pro_snake_8838550.htm
Christian
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 14, 2013, 01:50:11 pm

Well...actually the Ethercon Connector on my cables touches the metal part of the RJ45, so there is a grounding. It was designed that way.
Like I said, I can duplicate the sync loss with basic CAT cables. But I tried it two times with Ethercon cables for almost 40 Minutes...not one single drop out.
And guess what...I even got a crappy video of that:-)
Made with my mobile phone, and bad english spoken too - sorry for that-->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Qo9aH3Ous&feature=youtu.be

In addition. We do have three X32 in our company, did about 200 gig with them and never ever had a dropout due to static...just sayin'
But I'm curious what results your retest will show. BTW: I use these Belden CAT cables-->
http://www.thomann.de/gb/pro_snake_8838550.htm
Christian
The static hit may not be the direct cause of the reported sync loss issues. I do not recall others reporting any such correlation with static.  BUT... the fact that it can be made to drop sync from a static hit, gives the engineers something that they should be able to recreate on the bench, and perhaps the fix for this, will also fix the hard to replicate random sync loss issue.

or not... I am not smart enough to know exactly what is going on, but anything that can be reproduced on demand is worth investigating.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 14, 2013, 02:10:34 pm

Well...actually the Ethercon Connector on my cables touches the metal part of the RJ45, so there is a grounding. It was designed that way.
Like I said, I can duplicate the sync loss with basic CAT cables. But I tried it two times with Ethercon cables for almost 40 Minutes...not one single drop out.
And guess what...I even got a crappy video of that:-)
Made with my mobile phone, and bad english spoken too - sorry for that-->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Qo9aH3Ous&feature=youtu.be

In addition. We do have three X32 in our company, did about 200 gig with them and never ever had a dropout due to static...just sayin'
But I'm curious what results your retest will show. BTW: I use these Belden CAT cables-->
http://www.thomann.de/gb/pro_snake_8838550.htm
Christian

Great video. I have put more thought into this and realized that my statement from above said that I always use ethercon connector in a live situation. But I just realized that it has always been with non shielded cable. So I will preform the test tonight with shielded ethercon cables and hope that fixes the issue. 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: ChristianBoche on November 14, 2013, 02:46:21 pm
Great video. I have put more thought into this and realized that my statement from above said that I always use ethercon connector in a live situation. But I just realized that it has always been with non shielded cable. So I will preform the test tonight with shielded ethercon cables and hope that fixes the issue.

Thanks Brian. If I recall right, then Behringer once stated, that we should only use shielded cable and that the S16 and the X32 should be used on the same phase powerwise. Since I've done that, I never had any problems with our three X32 and our four S16. I just had once a sync problem that was  easily comprehensible to the fact, I was to lazy to put the S16 and the X32 on the same power phase. In addition, most of the time I don't carry a UPS with me...maybe I was just lucky about 199 times;-)
Christian
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 14, 2013, 03:38:44 pm
So I have done some more testing tonight. 

Just watch and all of your questions should be answered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp3NF3AKCWs

Thanks, Brian, good job.

So to summarize your results in a glance-able form:


                     UNSHIELDED CAT:                  SHIELDED CAT:

S16 + Compact, speaker drive from S16
   Shock to console            FAIL                           FAIL

   Shock to S16               FAIL                           FAIL, but took longer

   Shock to mic @S16            FAIL                           PASS

   ====================================================================

Compact only, no S16 or CAT

   Shock to console      PASS

   Shock to mic         PASS

It's curious that shocking the body of the S16 causes the Fail but not the mic, which is presumably connected to the chassis. Could that mean that the S16 has a Pin 1 problem, in which Pin 1 is terminated to a board trace which at the kinds of voltages involved with static, turns into a resistor and allows hum problems but prevents this loss of sync? (The proper way to terminate pin1 is to use either a wire directly to the chassis ground, or a trace large enough to electrically mimic a wire, and thanks to Neil Muncy's crusade to make the world aware of the problem, we have vastly fewer incidents these days of Pin1 problems.)

Anybody have both a Pin1 tester hummer and an S16/X32 combo?

Brian, can you test the S16 in a rack, shocking some other component but not directly to the S16?

It's hard to imagine that an Ethercon connector will solve the problem of static discharge directly onto the console, but it would be great if it did. The metal of the RJ45 is already grounding the shield to the console body, so unless the interference is entering at the back of the RJ45, I don't get what the Ethercon adds to the equation.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 14, 2013, 03:52:08 pm
Thanks Brian. If I recall right, then Behringer once stated, that we should only use shielded cable and that the S16 and the X32 should be used on the same phase powerwise.

Hi Christian,

Yes, they eventually said shielded is best, but I don't recall the "same phase" part. Do you recall where they said that?

Having stage and console on the same phase is a "best practice", certainly, but also means that you bring AC from your source to the console (which is what I do anyway) rather than relying on nearby outlets. Do you always have an AC cable in your snake as well?

Regarding your ability to get away without a UPS, I wonder if the distance from your world's nominal voltage (240?) to the point lasting more than 2 cycles at which the console reboots (90v?) makes it much less likely that you'll have that problem, whereas we who start at 120V don't have very far to go in a voltage sag to cause a problem.

Maybe if we ran our consoles from 208 or 240, we could get by without UPS's, too?

Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 14, 2013, 04:08:31 pm
Brian,

Once again I have no dog in the fight, but my 29 years of network experience and cable plant design and implementation might help.

First, and in plain language, nice fucking job.

Second, the X32 world owes you a very large thank you for the extra effort you've taken chasing the problem.


On to the thought. If you would please, I would like you to make a cable that does not use all 8 tabs of the RJ-45 connectors. Humor me with this please, I have a reason and will expound after your test.

Please use only the orange and green pairs wires WECO 568B, pins 1,2,3 and 6. DO NOT use the brown and blue pairs.

Thanks. BL
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 14, 2013, 04:52:22 pm
Hi Bob,

Do you mean Brian? He did the tests, not me.

Dan

Dan,

Once again I have no dog in the fight, but my 29 years of network experience and cable plant design and implementation might help.

First, and in plain language, nice fucking job.

Second, the X32 world owes you a very large thank you for the extra effort you've taken chasing the problem.


On to the thought. If you would please, I would like you to make a cable that does not use all 8 tabs of the RJ-45 connectors. Humor me with this please, I have a reason and will expound after your test.

Please use only the orange and green pairs wires WECO 568B, pins 1,2,3 and 6. DO NOT use the brown and blue pairs.

Thanks. BL
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 14, 2013, 06:24:25 pm
OK folks I did the test that Christian did and got the same result's he did.

No need for a video

SHIELDED CAT5E WITH ETHERCON CONNECTORS ON EACH END. Shocked for more than 20 minutes straight without a drop out.  Pulled the ethercon ends off and the problem presented itself once again. 

So it looks like we have a solution to the problem.  Always use SHIELDED ETHERCON CABLES

I checked continuity on the rj45 aes50 connectors and the left shield tab in grounded to the chassis of the desk but the right is not.  Same goes for the S16.  Once the ethercon connector is used the entire connector becomes grounded.  I would guess that this solves the problem because of ground potential??

JR what is the purpose of this missing pin test?  I know that each twisted pair handles its predetermined 24 channels of I/O.  I found this out when I mis-wired a Cat5e once.  Could get channels 24-32 to work at all.  I will perform your the test if needed...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 14, 2013, 06:39:40 pm

Well...actually the Ethercon Connector on my cables touches the metal part of the RJ45, so there is a grounding. It was designed that way.
Like I said, I can duplicate the sync loss with basic CAT cables. But I tried it two times with Ethercon cables for almost 40 Minutes...not one single drop out.
And guess what...I even got a crappy video of that:-)
Made with my mobile phone, and bad english spoken too - sorry for that-->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6Qo9aH3Ous&feature=youtu.be

In addition. We do have three X32 in our company, did about 200 gig with them and never ever had a dropout due to static...just sayin'
But I'm curious what results your retest will show. BTW: I use these Belden CAT cables-->
http://www.thomann.de/gb/pro_snake_8838550.htm
Christian

Do you have a Belden part number or a US source for this snake?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 14, 2013, 07:08:38 pm
So thanks to your hard work Behringer has a solution. Maybe Uli will send you a free desk.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 14, 2013, 07:40:49 pm
So thanks to your hard work Behringer has a solution. Maybe Uli will send you a free desk.

So it looks like this is a good solution.  http://www.tmb.com/products/49-proplex-cat5e

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 14, 2013, 07:51:32 pm
OK folks I did the test that Christian did and got the same result's he did.

No need for a video

SHIELDED CAT5E WITH ETHERCON CONNECTORS ON EACH END. Shocked for more than 20 minutes straight without a drop out.  Pulled the ethercon ends off and the problem presented itself once again. 

So it looks like we have a solution to the problem.  Always use SHIELDED ETHERCON CABLES


!!!!!!!!!!!!!WOW!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice job, Brian! And Christian!

I'm quite happy that it works, but am still mystified as to why.

Did you try it with just one Ethercon, to see if that makes any difference?


JR what is the purpose of this missing pin test?  I know that each twisted pair handles its predetermined 24 channels of I/O.  I found this out when I mis-wired a Cat5e once.  Could get channels 24-32 to work at all.  I will perform your the test if needed...

I can't answer why Bob was asking for it; all 4 pairs are necessary for AES50 to function, so I don't get what only using two pair would do. 2 pairs are necessary for data, 2 pairs are necessary for sync (one pair of each function per direction).

Again, nice going, Brian.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 14, 2013, 09:05:12 pm
OK folks I did the test that Christian did and got the same result's he did.

No need for a video

SHIELDED CAT5E WITH ETHERCON CONNECTORS ON EACH END. Shocked for more than 20 minutes straight without a drop out.  Pulled the ethercon ends off and the problem presented itself once again. 

So it looks like we have a solution to the problem.  Always use SHIELDED ETHERCON CABLES


Just to be definitive about this, did you try Ethercons with unshielded cable?

Thx,
Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Per Sovik on November 14, 2013, 09:10:55 pm
So thanks to your hard work Behringer has a solution. Maybe Uli will send you a free desk.

OK, so now Behringer has got a solution, the very solution they have had all the time!!
The conclusion, as far as I understand is that we need to use properly built shielded ethercon cables, guess what Behringer have always told us to use!!

Anyway, it's good that someone now has proved that the solution is indeed to do as we're told, and that going with any lesser cables is risky.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Per Sovik on November 14, 2013, 09:15:56 pm
JR what is the purpose of this missing pin test?  I know that each twisted pair handles its predetermined 24 channels of I/O.  I found this out when I mis-wired a Cat5e once.  Could get channels 24-32 to work at all.  I will perform your the test if needed...

It was Bob L., not JR that suggested the test.
The pairs are TX data, TX sync, RX data, RX sync, all 48 channels on one pair.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 14, 2013, 10:55:59 pm
!!!!!!!!!!!!!WOW!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice job, Brian! And Christian!

I'm quite happy that it works, but am still mystified as to why.

Did you try it with just one Ethercon, to see if that makes any difference?

I can't answer why Bob was asking for it; all 4 pairs are necessary for AES50 to function, so I don't get what only using two pair would do. 2 pairs are necessary for data, 2 pairs are necessary for sync (one pair of each function per direction).

Again, nice going, Brian.

Yes I tried one end with ethercon one without. And we did have a drop out.  I have always used no-shielded cable with ethercon ends and have always had drop outs.

Conclusion:  ONLY  Shielded Ethercon CAT5E everything else failed.

My final Video on this matter.  Just for re-enforcement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJJBhSvagn0
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Eric Simna on November 15, 2013, 12:44:48 am
Conclusion:  ONLY  Shielded Ethercon CAT5E everything else failed.

So the question now becomes, what are our US sources for such cable?  Preferably sources that wont cost as much as the console and stage box. (Yes, I know I'm exaggerating)
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 15, 2013, 01:42:48 am
So the question now becomes, what are our US sources for such cable?  Preferably sources that wont cost as much as the console and stage box. (Yes, I know I'm exaggerating)

I spent some quality time on Markertek's web site.  No stock items, no listing for custom length STP/Ethercon assemblies.  I imagine their shop can assemble whatever is needed.

CAT5e STP shown include West Penn 4245F, Belden 7938A DataTuff, Belden 7929A, Belden 1533R, and some plenum-rated variants.

I've run my S16 over 250' of 'on sale at Home Depot' CAT5e and not had any sync issues, but I've not tried it since the weather has changed.  How hard is it to prep and crimp shielded terminations?  Regular RJ45s are easy once you get the hang of it, but this stuff is different.  Anyone?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 15, 2013, 01:51:04 am
I spent some quality time on Markertek's web site.  No stock items, no listing for custom length STP/Ethercon assemblies.  I imagine their shop can assemble whatever is needed.

CAT5e STP shown include West Penn 4245F, Belden 7938A DataTuff, Belden 7929A, Belden 1533R, and some plenum-rated variants.

I've run my S16 over 250' of 'on sale at Home Depot' CAT5e and not had any sync issues, but I've not tried it since the weather has changed.  How hard is it to prep and crimp shielded terminations?  Regular RJ45s are easy once you get the hang of it, but this stuff is different.  Anyone?
I just ordered a 1000' of Clarke double shielded cat5e and I already have the shielded connectors and crimping tools. If your interested I can make custom lengths with ethercon ends. I'm a dealer for all the products involved. Pm me if you need stp cat5e custom cables. TMB is also good source they carry the prop lex brand. I included a link in a earlier post. 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 15, 2013, 03:06:20 am
Yes I tried one end with ethercon one without. And we did have a drop out.  I have always used no-shielded cable with ethercon ends and have always had drop outs.

Conclusion:  ONLY  Shielded Ethercon CAT5E everything else failed.

My final Video on this matter.  Just for re-enforcement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJJBhSvagn0

OK, then, thanks. That's disappointing....

Video is private.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 15, 2013, 03:13:31 am
So it looks like this is a good solution.  http://www.tmb.com/products/49-proplex-cat5e

That says "patch cable". Don't we want snake cable? The only snake cable TMB has is UTP, or am I missing something?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: ChristianBoche on November 15, 2013, 03:21:45 am
OK folks I did the test that Christian did and got the same result's he did.

No need for a video

SHIELDED CAT5E WITH ETHERCON CONNECTORS ON EACH END. Shocked for more than 20 minutes straight without a drop out.  Pulled the ethercon ends off and the problem presented itself once again. 

So it looks like we have a solution to the problem. 

Perfect Brian!
Good to see that it works for you as well. Concernig the Thomann CAT5 cable. I'm on tour right now in the Netherlands (without a X32), but I can check my cable drum when I'm back next week. If I recall it right, there is only a Belden print on the Thomann cable and no particular model number...

I think, it was the Belden 1305A CAT cable that is recommended by Midas. So it should work for the X32 as well, both use the same Super MAC technology from Klark Teknik.
Christian
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 15, 2013, 03:53:02 am

I think, it was the Belden 1305A CAT cable that is recommended by Midas. So it should work for the X32 as well, both use the same Super MAC technology from Klark Teknik.
Christian

That's a UTP.

http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Bulk-Wire-Cable/Bulk-Category-5-5e-6-Cable/Belden/1305A-B59500.xhtml
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 15, 2013, 05:41:46 am
That says "patch cable". Don't we want snake cable? The only snake cable TMB has is UTP, or am I missing something?

You're missing something.  I am pretty sure most Proplex cable is SFTP.  they do show some UTP on their website also.  Their item codes are very confusing.  Best to call them.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Aaron Hammett on November 15, 2013, 08:42:56 am
Maybe this has been discussed, but it is clear why STP and Ethercon works in the combination. The two devices aren't magically made immune to ESD, but the use of the shielded cable connects the devices as a single Faraday cage. Once the X32 chassis, the cable and the S16 Chassis are in the "cage", ESD is at the same potential on the entire chassis and every component's Chassis Ground potential is lifted to several tens of kV. The next time you touch the board - provided you're contacting the earth in some fashion, you've dissipated the potential.

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 15, 2013, 11:23:51 am
OK folks I did the test that Christian did and got the same result's he did.

No need for a video
Actually a short video showing it working and explaining the correct cable that makes it work, to replace the longer videos showing it not work would be the right thing to do. 
Quote
SHIELDED CAT5E WITH ETHERCON CONNECTORS ON EACH END. Shocked for more than 20 minutes straight without a drop out.  Pulled the ethercon ends off and the problem presented itself once again. 

So it looks like we have a solution to the problem.  Always use SHIELDED ETHERCON CABLES

I checked continuity on the rj45 aes50 connectors and the left shield tab in grounded to the chassis of the desk but the right is not.  Same goes for the S16.  Once the ethercon connector is used the entire connector becomes grounded.  I would guess that this solves the problem because of ground potential??

JR what is the purpose of this missing pin test?  I know that each twisted pair handles its predetermined 24 channels of I/O.  I found this out when I mis-wired a Cat5e once.  Could get channels 24-32 to work at all.  I will perform your the test if needed...
JR does not know what Bob Leonard is thinking, and will not guess. Bob has lots more experience than I with this stuff in his IT work. 

Glad we can stick a fork in this one.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Eric Simna on November 15, 2013, 12:19:05 pm
You're missing something.  I am pretty sure most Proplex cable is SFTP.  they do show some UTP on their website also.  Their item codes are very confusing.  Best to call them.

So, I've spent some time looking for potential cable to use (that might be a lower price).  What is the difference between duracat/proplex and the insulation on a direct burial cable?  I found this on ebay and it looks like it might be a decent solution:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-CAT5E-CAT-5E-Direct-Burial-STP-Outdoor-CMX-UV-PULL-BOX-/390438042582?pt=US_Ethernet_Cables_RJ_45_8P8C_&hash=item5ae7ebbbd6

Thoughts?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: James A. Griffin on November 15, 2013, 12:23:25 pm
So, I've spent some time looking for potential cable to use (that might be a lower price).  What is the difference between duracat/proplex and the insulation on a direct burial cable?  I found this on ebay and it looks like it might be a decent solution:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000-CAT5E-CAT-5E-Direct-Burial-STP-Outdoor-CMX-UV-PULL-BOX-/390438042582?pt=US_Ethernet_Cables_RJ_45_8P8C_&hash=item5ae7ebbbd6

Thoughts?

Direct burial cables usually have a very stiff outer insulation, making them hard to roll up.  Not the best option for portable use
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Sokol on November 15, 2013, 01:03:13 pm
Maybe this has been discussed, but it is clear why STP and Ethercon works in the combination. The two devices aren't magically made immune to ESD, but the use of the shielded cable connects the devices as a single Faraday cage. Once the X32 chassis, the cable and the S16 Chassis are in the "cage", ESD is at the same potential on the entire chassis and every component's Chassis Ground potential is lifted to several tens of kV. The next time you touch the board - provided you're contacting the earth in some fashion, you've dissipated the potential.
I would agree with that hypothesis. Using the EtherCon shells on each end creates a soda-straw Faraday shield around the twisted pairs and forces the two boxes to the same voltage potential for fast rise-time signals, such as static. Without the shielded cables and EtherCon ends, even if both the mixer and the stage box are "grounded" to the wall outlet safety grounds, there's still a lot of wiring impedance with series inductance on the trip through the electrical box and such. And that series inductance could be what's allowing the static pulse into the clock circuitry and tripping it up. Another interesting test would be to use UTP without Ehercon ends and bond the stage box to the X32 with a heavy piece of cable. That would determine if it's an actual bonding problem or a shielding problem. However, if the long run if shielded Cat-5 with EtherCon connectors does the trick, then that's the best fix.

It appears that Whirlwind has a pre-made cable that should do the trick for those who don't want to "roll the own". http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/pre-wired-cables/digitalnetwork/enc2s-shielded-cable-ethercon-connectors
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 15, 2013, 02:01:47 pm
Actually a short video showing it working and explaining the correct cable that makes it work, to replace the longer videos showing it not work would be the right thing to do.  JR does not know what Bob Leonard is thinking, and will not guess. Bob has lots more experience than I with this stuff in his IT work. 

Glad we can stick a fork in this one.

JR

Sorry guys I did do a last video to mimic Christians findings but it was set to private again.  Its now public and you can view it here.

http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=PJJBhSvagn0

Someone mentioned Duracat cable.  DO NOT USE IT.  Thats what I have had all the problems with.  First of all its non-shielded and its solid wire cat6 not 5.

Here is a nice link that Allen & Heath put out that shows all acceptable cables in the STP form factor. They did the work for you already.

http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/Pages/SubLinkDetails.aspx?CatId=GLDSeries&SID=46
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on November 15, 2013, 02:14:49 pm
I can only find it at one wholesaler but Belden 70005E (pdf (http://www.beldensolutions.com/res/Media/beldensolutions.com/Media/Bilder/Pro_Broadcast/NP_119E_01.pdf/NP_119E_01.pdf.pdf)) seems to fit the bill.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 15, 2013, 02:52:44 pm

It appears that Whirlwind has a pre-made cable that should do the trick for those who don't want to "roll the own". http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/pre-wired-cables/digitalnetwork/enc2s-shielded-cable-ethercon-connectors

Hi Mike,

I sure like the look of the ENC1

http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/pre-wired-cables/digitalnetwork/enc1

The open Ethercon connector has always seemed precarious to me: the entire show depends on that cable functioning, yet the important bits are just hanging out there. This Whirlwind one looks like the right level of protection. But it's not an Ethercon, is it? Hard to tell from the black-on-black picture.

It also doesn't appear to be available in a multi-run, like the Gepco tactical 4-Ethernet one (which is UNSHIELDED   :'(  :'(  :'(  :'(  )

Thanks,
Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 15, 2013, 05:08:10 pm
Any of you guys with a rig handy to experiment, and a static tool ( Brian), I would be curious to see how much of this phenomenon is cable shielding and how much is ground bonding between the two digital ports.

An unshielded cable with an added ground wire grabbing chassis at the two ends might make an interesting test...

Sorry I don't want to make busy work for you, just curious to understand the root cause.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Joe Sanborn on November 15, 2013, 06:33:36 pm
Dear Guys,
I also HIGHLY recommend a cable with Ethercon ends.
So once again Shielded CAT-5e is what you want to use as you connection between X32 and S16, (and S-16 to S16).
I have used the ProCo, (Pro Co 300' Shielded Cat 5e Ethercon Cable).  It has a robust casing, Ethercon ends and is Shielded CAT-5e.

Dear Guys,

As indicated back in May, use the following cable:
1 - CAT-5e Shielded Cables ONLY 
2 - Ethercon terminated cable ends
3 - Maximum AES50 cable length 100 meters (300')

I have used the ProCo, (Pro Co 300' Shielded Cat 5e Ethercon Cable).  It has a robust casing, Ethercon ends and is Shielded CAT-5e.  In the US Sweetwater carries this cable in-stock, (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EtherShld200), you can select many different lengths up to 300'.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Darren Scaresbrook on November 15, 2013, 08:40:52 pm

Here is a nice link that Allen & Heath put out that shows all acceptable cables in the STP form factor. They did the work for you already.

http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/Pages/SubLinkDetails.aspx?CatId=GLDSeries&SID=46

Don't presume that it will work because it works on another system!

I have tried the Ramcat from Klotz and had lots of problems. It is stp and stranded 75 metres. Properly terminated with ethercons. It works fine on the Allen and Heath and the Midas but is no good on the x32.
I am currently using 50 metres of cheap .30c/metre utp solid and it is working fine.

Go figure!

FWIW, here in Australia we get very dry summers.

Darren

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 16, 2013, 03:07:25 am
Any of you guys with a rig handy to experiment, and a static tool ( Brian), I would be curious to see how much of this phenomenon is cable shielding and how much is ground bonding between the two digital ports.

An unshielded cable with an added ground wire grabbing chassis at the two ends might make an interesting test...

Sorry I don't want to make busy work for you, just curious to understand the root cause.

JR

Hi JR,

Since he has the console and S16 within a few feet of each other, and since they are both grounded by their AC cords to the same outlet, hasn't he already accomplished this?

Thanks,
Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 16, 2013, 09:48:47 am
Hi JR,

Since he has the console and S16 within a few feet of each other, and since they are both grounded by their AC cords to the same outlet, hasn't he already accomplished this?

Thanks,
Dan

Yes, it should be. Especially for low frequency current, but a rapid rise time transient like a static hit, "could" (I am speculating) cause a voltage difference between the two chassis due to inductance in the path.

Let me put arbitrary hypothetical (not real) numbers on this. Suppose the Z from each chassis back to the mains line cord ground is .5 ohm at the rise time of the static, and the static hit is 1A momentarily. Without the two chassis bonded to each other, a static hit to one or the other will cause a .5v spike in the relative ground voltage between the two units. With the two chassis tied together with another conductive path, the static hit current will follow both paths back to the mains ground.

Of course the Z of the digital cable is not zero, so the relative Z of the cable vs the two safety ground paths will also factor in. This is not that important to understand the root cause. if the solution is simply to use the recommended cable just do it.  I am curious, and it seems a relatively simple experiment, but I will live without knowing.   

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 16, 2013, 10:53:34 am
JR,
In most cases the Ethernet interface would be a separate module / daughterboard. I don't know if Behringer designed the board in that manner, however, my thought is that the Ethernet module, on board or not, is not properly grounded to chassis ground. This could be intentional or not, but I agree, if the fix is using a special cable, then use it.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 16, 2013, 11:13:32 am
JR,
In most cases the Ethernet interface would be a separate module / daughterboard. I don't know if Behringer designed the board in that manner, however, my thought is that the Ethernet module, on board or not, is not properly grounded to chassis ground. This could be intentional or not, but I agree, if the fix is using a special cable, then use it.

Yes, I did not want to speculate too much about the internal design. I do not know, and do not want to know, but yes it is very possible that there is some compliance or impedance between the internal digital ground and the chassis or safety ground.  This means that the coupling from a static hit to the digital interface can be variable. However bonding the digital send and digital receive connectors together may bond those two digital grounds together better, or perhaps it is bonding the two chassis together better, maybe both.

I am curious about whether the shielded cable is working as a shield or additional ground bonding path, for this static fault example. My gut tells me the latter, while more shielding is always good too.

never mind me... this is just how I roll..

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Eric Simna on November 16, 2013, 12:12:58 pm
I can only find it at one wholesaler but Belden 70005E (pdf (http://www.beldensolutions.com/res/Media/beldensolutions.com/Media/Bilder/Pro_Broadcast/NP_119E_01.pdf/NP_119E_01.pdf.pdf)) seems to fit the bill.

http://www.tmb.com/products/50-proplex-cat5e-snake#features

This product appears to be 4ch and individual shields.  In case you're looking for the redundancy.  I know I'll be considering this for the future.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 16, 2013, 12:47:45 pm
JR,
In most cases the Ethernet interface would be a separate module / daughterboard. I don't know if Behringer designed the board in that manner, however, my thought is that the Ethernet module, on board or not, is not properly grounded to chassis ground. This could be intentional or not, but I agree, if the fix is using a special cable, then use it.

The AES50 ports are not Ethernet.  How the Ethernet ("remote") jack on the X32 is grounded is not the issue here.  I'm betting your right about a daughter board, though.  The few still pics online of the inside shows several, but none of the pics included the parts we're talking about. :(
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 17, 2013, 01:49:39 am

We need to keep in mind that project 802 defines Ethernet hardware as a method for sharing data. AES50 is a protocol running on an over provisioned Ethernet based network.

The original 506A and 506B specs came from Western Electric as one of their contributions to IEEE and project 802. The reason for the A and B is due mainly to IBM who in the early 80s pushed hard for their Token Ring based network to become the standard. There was a separation within the project and to reduce financial impact more than one standard was adopted. Through the years cost and flexibility/capability has determined the Ethernet topology as what can be called the ISO physical layer winner, yet other topologies still abound hence WECO 568A cable plants can still be found.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on November 17, 2013, 11:52:13 am
Has anyone tried using the X32 + S16s with the shielded ethercon cables with the X32 and S16s on different circuits?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on November 17, 2013, 01:33:04 pm
Has anyone tried using the X32 + S16s with the shielded ethercon cables with the X32 and S16s on different circuits?

What do you mean by "different circuit?"   Do you mean a different outlet derived from a different breaker in the same electrical panel/distro?

Or do you mean a circuit derived from a completely different electrical source such us the console on house power and the S16 on generator power?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 17, 2013, 02:14:00 pm
What do you mean by "different circuit?"   Do you mean a different outlet derived from a different breaker in the same electrical panel/distro?

Or do you mean a circuit derived from a completely different electrical source such us the console on house power and the S16 on generator power?

More likely scenario: Gig in large building, S16 on circuit from one panel, console on circuit from another panel, with  voltage between grounds.

We've now been told that Behringer recommends using the same phase to power both, which I believe is more detail than we've had before. I *thought* one of the advantages of digital consoles was the ability to avoid ground loops, which is done in part in analog world by using the same phase power for both stage/FOH, or at least same panel.

This is actually not a problem for my company, because we always have AC bundled with the snake so the console can live anywhere and is not dependant on reaching an outlet, but still.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on November 17, 2013, 08:14:38 pm
More likely scenario: Gig in large building, S16 on circuit from one panel, console on circuit from another panel, with  voltage between grounds.

We've now been told that Behringer recommends using the same phase to power both, which I believe is more detail than we've had before. I *thought* one of the advantages of digital consoles was the ability to avoid ground loops, which is done in part in analog world by using the same phase power for both stage/FOH, or at least same panel.

This is actually not a problem for my company, because we always have AC bundled with the snake so the console can live anywhere and is not dependant on reaching an outlet, but still.

Correct, if we were to purchase an X32 the console would be plugged into an outlet by the sound booth one end of the room and the S16s plugged into an outlet on stage. Need to know if this would be a problem.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 17, 2013, 10:13:36 pm
Correct, if we were to purchase an X32 the console would be plugged into an outlet by the sound booth one end of the room and the S16s plugged into an outlet on stage. Need to know if this would be a problem.

Hi Jason,

For starters, find out where the circuit breakers are for the two outlets in question.

If they are in the same electrical panel, you are probably fine; still, try another test:

Run extension cords to the two outlets in question, cords which are long enough to reach a central point. #12 or as large as you can get would be best. Measure with a decent voltmeter the AC voltage between the two ground pins. It should ideally be a volt or less (electrical guys will tell us the voltage limit here I'm sure). Measure the voltage between the two hot pins. If it's 0 or so, they are on the same phase. If it's 240 or 208, they are on different phases. If it's higher than that you have a different problem and should call an electrician immediately.

Speculation subject to expert commentary: if there is minimal voltage between the grounds, and especially if the two outlets' circuit breakers are in the same panel, it shouldn't matter if it's 120 volts or 208/240, hum/buzz wise.

In my portable system we run off three phases, and don't pay any attention to which one any console is on, as long as the overall load is more or less balanced. I've not yet achieved perfect balance with a bunch of varying 120v loads, FWIW.

Conditions other than the above are beyond my expertise.

HTH,
Dan

Edit: It would also be good info to know ground-neutral voltage for each and neutral-neutral. I'm sure someone will chime in with acceptable voltages and variations.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Michael Kurczeski on November 20, 2013, 04:48:24 pm
Didn't want to read through 19 pages of posts so i apologize in advance if this has been stated. A console that I've had for 14 months just started acting up. I Lost headphone outs, and had some kind of strange digital noise on channel 10. I called behringer to send in for a warranty repair and was told that you have to register it online within 90 days of purchase to be eligible for an additional 2 years of warranty after the first year. so....everyone better register, because only if you fill out a form with your name, address, phone # and serial # will behringer back the product after 1 year.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on November 26, 2013, 10:10:10 pm
For what it's worth, I'll add more test results to the mix.

X32 Compact Port A to S16 #1 via 50ft Belden 1533R STP w/Ethercons
X32 Compact Port B to S16 #2 via 50ft Gepco CT504HDX UTP w/Ethercons

Simulating a static discharge at the S16 end using a lighter igniter, the S16 connected with UTP drops out within 3-5 shocks, the S16 connected with STP didn't drop out after 30+ when I stopped.  Both S16's are racked in the same ATA case.  Shocking the STP connected S16 would occasionally cause the UTP connected S16 to drop out.

I'm not fond of the Belden 1533 cable.  It holds its shape almost as well as a twist-tie.  I'm still looking for a good STP cable for snake use.  Any suggestions that are currently available retail?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on November 26, 2013, 11:31:22 pm
For what it's worth, I'll add more test results to the mix.

X32 Compact Port A to S16 #1 via 50ft Belden 1533R STP w/Ethercons
X32 Compact Port B to S16 #2 via 50ft Gepco CT504HDX UTP w/Ethercons

Simulating a static discharge at the S16 end using a lighter igniter, the S16 connected with UTP drops out within 3-5 shocks, the S16 connected with STP didn't drop out after 30+ when I stopped.  Both S16's are racked in the same ATA case.  Shocking the STP connected S16 would occasionally cause the UTP connected S16 to drop out.

I'm not fond of the Belden 1533 cable.  It holds its shape almost as well as a twist-tie.  I'm still looking for a good STP cable for snake use.  Any suggestions that are currently available retail?

Good test man.

The ProPlex from TMB kicks butt.  I just received a bunch of it and its not badly priced.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 29, 2013, 01:50:23 pm
Good test man.

The ProPlex from TMB kicks butt.  I just received a bunch of it and its not badly priced.

I received some of the quad ProPlex, and it is so stiff I'm not sure how I'll be able to use it. I was able to fight it into a roadcase, and my first use of it will be next Wednesday.

The Gepco UTP that Corey mentions is so sweet and flexible; going to this ProPlex is really a downer from an ease of use standpoint.

Thanks again to you and now Corey for your work figuring this out. I'd still like to see the results of JR's suggestion of a test using UTP with Ethercons plus an additional ground wire connecting the console and S16 together...

I feel like my problem of disrupting the sync (or whatever was happening, and which triggered my AES Section workshop about Audio over Ethernet Cable) when pinching/pulling the cable was due to the pairs moving in relation to each other, and feel that the quad assemblies with their double jackets will minimize that movement. I also like having multiple cable possibilities within one overall jacket. For example, my show next week will require a run from S16's onstage to FOH console, then a run back to the stage and then to a room somewhere with a second console doing a mix for a live radio feed and recording, plus a third run to get a wireless router at FOH connected to the radio console so I can keep track on an iPad of what that engineer, who is not experienced with the console, is doing (but not to interfere with his work).

That would be a booger with individual runs, but simple with the quad.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 29, 2013, 04:31:32 pm


Thanks again to you and now Corey for your work figuring this out. I'd still like to see the results of JR's suggestion of a test using UTP with Ethercons plus an additional ground wire connecting the console and S16 together...


While I do not have a pony in this contest, I remain curious about the underlying fault mechanism involved.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on November 29, 2013, 04:46:14 pm
While I do not have a pony in this contest, I remain curious about the underlying fault mechanism involved.

JR

Uli's karma???
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 29, 2013, 04:57:34 pm
Uli's karma???

I have actually seen Karma collected from business types who operated in karma deficit for too long. The good news is we mere individuals do not need to worry about it. The universe does all the work.

We just need to keep our personal accounts straight.  8)

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 01, 2013, 12:19:35 am
Like you John I have no dog in this fight but follow along out of "networking" curiosity. I doubt the gang at Uli world will ever post the real cause for this issue. My theory is still the same, a daughter board without a common ground.

ever wonder why the gang from Uli world seldom posts on this site? Probably because of posts like mine.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 01, 2013, 10:59:35 am
Like you John I have no dog in this fight but follow along out of "networking" curiosity. I doubt the gang at Uli world will ever post the real cause for this issue. My theory is still the same, a daughter board without a common ground.

ever wonder why the gang from Uli world seldom posts on this site? Probably because of posts like mine.
Be careful what you wish for. Actually Uli has posted personally on several web forum and apparently encourages his service people to participate. I suspect his mid level marketing types are a little cautious knowing that dad may be reading or will hear about it if they show too much ass. Maybe they do not have any more factual advice to add other than what type of cable to use, which should be enough if it works every time.

I won't speculate about the cause of the fault, but it seems being able to reproduce the fault in the lab, opens up an opportunity to better understand and make the interface more robust. These are not the kind of laundry that manufacturers like to wash in public.

JR
 
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Robert Lofgren on December 01, 2013, 02:38:41 pm
Keep in mind that the pysical interface (the four pairs of data lines) are galvanic isolated using 'ethernet transformers'.

The only galvanic connection is the stp-shield that doesn't carry any data.

If you use utp there is no grounding issue but I rather think that the data stream becomes corrupt and some crc-error is detected and therefor mutes the audio.

Whit a proper shield it is more difficult to inject inteference into the data lines as the shield will take care of most of it and safely lead it to ground.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Simon Fernie on December 05, 2013, 05:59:21 am
While I do not have a pony in this contest, I remain curious about the underlying fault mechanism involved.

JR

+1

To Mr  Mortensen : Maybe the AES should anticipate the SPCA's (Society for the Protection against Cable Abuse) reaction to their shocking photo's!   ;D

At a recent gig with plenty of potential "older material/analog(ue) " problem sources, the only hitch for about ten minutes was the band's x32, (without a  S16 stage-box)  hissing slightly until the operator found out it was an internal patching problem...

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on December 07, 2013, 11:17:47 pm
I'm still looking for a decent pliable shielded cable that's readily available and not more than $1/ft.  I contacted TMB about ProPlex but they refuse to sell to end users and I refuse to jump through hoops just to buy a cable.  Also, according to Dan M. the ProPlex isn't very flexible.

I currently have a Rapco / ProCo cable from MF that uses Belden 1533R.  It's stiff and holds its shape worse than a pipe cleaner.

I also picked up a cable off of Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002L7M4ZY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that appears to be made by Wavenet (http://www.wavenet.net/products_files/Cat5E%20Shielded%20Outdoor%20spec.pdf).  It's definitely better than the Belden 1533R but nowhere near the Gepco CT504HDX UTP cable.  I'm probably going to stick with that until something better comes along.  I haven't experienced the same issues that Dan M. did with dropouts due to pinching but I'm not as confident in this Wavenet cable's ability to support the pair spacing to prevent it.

*edit: I misread Dan's post initially.  I went ahead and purchased some TMB ProPlex and I'm happy with it.  It's very flexible.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on December 08, 2013, 12:10:04 am
I'm still looking for a decent pliable shielded cable that's readily available and not more than $1/ft.  I contacted TMB about ProPlex but they refuse to sell to end users and I refuse to jump through hoops just to buy a cable.  Also, according to Dan M. the ProPlex isn't very flexible.

I don't see the difficultly in calling the right person to get the Proplex.  I could get it for you or I know Mike Pyle can get it for you.  I have been out of the area lately and have recommended people to call him to get it.  It is great cable.  Not the most flexible but it will still go around wall corners without issue.  If you want to coil it around a broom stick then it probably isn't for you.  If you plan on using it for any reasonable professional audio application then it is an awesome cable that will exceed your needs.  I have yet to see a superior cable.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on December 08, 2013, 04:00:00 am
I'm still looking for a decent pliable shielded cable that's readily available and not more than $1/ft.  I contacted TMB about ProPlex but they refuse to sell to end users and I refuse to jump through hoops just to buy a cable.  Also, according to Dan M. the ProPlex isn't very flexible.


Hi Corey,

The ProPlex I got is the 4 banger, not the single run. The individual runs (the splayed ends of the 4 banger) seem flexible enough, it's the overall jacket that's stiff stiff stiff.

Following the advice of another thread, I taped it to some AC with Rescue Tape (the silicon self-sealing stuff), and the assembly is MUCH easier to deal with than the loose cables. My silicon tape wrapping technique needs some help in terms of getting a nice looking wrap, but it seems to grab pretty well and I got 80 separate wraps out of a 36' roll of tape, the 2" stuff.

I, too, am unaware of TMB not selling to anyone, but maybe I'm set up somehow, having bought there before for resale.

HTH,
Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on December 08, 2013, 04:02:56 am
+1

To Mr  Mortensen : Maybe the AES should anticipate the SPCA's (Society for the Protection against Cable Abuse) reaction to their shocking photo's!   ;D

Hi Simon,

Thanks for the comment; yes, those pics were chosen for their shock value. Nothing with feelings was injured in our workshop...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on December 08, 2013, 12:02:57 pm
The ProPlex I got is the 4 banger, not the single run. The individual runs (the splayed ends of the 4 banger) seem flexible enough, it's the overall jacket that's stiff stiff stiff.

Thanks, Dan.  I caught my misread of your post after I posted.  Thanks for correcting.  I think I'm going to give the ProPlex single a try.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on December 08, 2013, 06:25:25 pm
Thanks, Dan.  I caught my misread of your post after I posted.  Thanks for correcting.  I think I'm going to give the ProPlex single a try.

Im a TMB dealer if you need quote.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 08, 2013, 10:19:40 pm
Thanks, Dan.  I caught my misread of your post after I posted.  Thanks for correcting.  I think I'm going to give the ProPlex single a try.

Rapco dealers can order the ProCo product mentioned by Joe Sandborn.  Lead time is typically 3 business days.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on December 08, 2013, 10:55:33 pm
Rapco dealers can order the ProCo product mentioned by Joe Sandborn.  Lead time is typically 3 business days.

I bought an assembly of the Rapco/ProCo.  The cable is Belden 1533R.  It holds any bends you happen to put in it.  Not great for a cable that needs to lie down well.  That's why I'm looking for other options.

*edit: I ended up getting some TMB ProPlex.  It's the best STP cable I've come across for stage use.  It's a little bit large and difficult to terminate but makes a good solid connection once you get the jacket and braided shield into the connector.  There's a good tutorial on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjHzMjKX6_s) with tips on how best to work the jacket into the connector.  I'd recommend getting pre-terminated assemblies if possible.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on December 17, 2013, 12:36:10 am
This is the thread that never ends.

Until last night, I had only used my X32 Compact with the S16 once other than in testing.  Last night I used it for a Christmas event at my church where we needed more inputs than our Qu-16 could handle.  All went well EXCEPT for a few loud pops / noises before and after the performance. 

The setup consisted of 16 channels via analog snake into local X32 inputs + 16 channels from 1 of 2 S16's racked in a flight case.  The S16 was connected with a 50ft shielded CAT5e direct burial cable ran along the hardwood floor from the mix position underneath a seating area.  I was using a moderately inexpensive shielded direct burial cable with Ethercons because I hadn't had time to terminate the ProPlex cable I received last week.  The cable has a foil shield with a drain wire similar to the ProCo cables recommended by Behringer.  The drain wire is soldered to the RJ45 metal casing.

Luckily, the pops didn't happen during the performance.  I am not entirely sure but I think the issue was caused by the cable getting stepped on by audience members.  The first time it happened, I don't recall anyone being near the cable run but I could be mistaken.  This behavior is similar to what Dan Mortensen and others were trying to troubleshoot near the beginning of this thread.  I am uncertain if the noise was caused by the S16 disconnecting since I was unable to get a look at the console screen before things were back to normal but I suspect it did drop out.

Using the same cable as last night, I successfully recreated a similar dropout / pop at home by pinching it with a pair of pliers.  After pinching 6 or 8 locations on the cable, the S16/X32 finally lost connection.  As long as I squeezed the cable, the X32/S16 would stay disconnected but appear to try to reconnect now and then.  I continued pinching in different locations for a while and was only able to cause disconnection 1 out of about 15 pinches.  The pop that occurred live wasn't exactly like the one at home but that could be because I don't have 26 mics or DI's plugged into the console at home, only one mic on the S16. 

Using the same cable I used last night, I tried shocking the S16 with a lighter igniter to simulate static discharge.  It did not drop out at all.  Using an unshielded cable previously, I have made the connection drop quite quickly using the same method.

It seems to me that there are two issues at play with the X32/S16 connection.  The first and most easily repeatable by me is the static discharge issue when using unshielded cable or cable without Ethercons.  The second is the issue of physical movement of the cable causing a loss of connection between the systems.  It is unfortunate that this console/stage box setup is so sensitive to these things but I have confidence that a heavier cable that holds the pairs in place better may not have any issues.  I will be using the TMB ProPlex henceforth and will report any problems if they arise.  I suspect that the ProPlex with it's kevlar filler and braided shield will do a good enough job of satisfying the X32/S16 connection requirements.

For any interested, here's a link to the multitrack recording of one of the dropouts from last night.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8899207/2013-12-16_X32_S16_Dropout_Example.zip
There is some obvious digital crap happening on most, but not all, of the S16 connected channels (17-29).
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Pyle on December 17, 2013, 11:44:04 am
Regarding Proplex, I'll mention that the distributor is very responsive about filling orders. In my experience bulk wire orders get dropshipped the same day if they are received early enough, and finished cable assemblies usually the next day. If you don't have the tools, or just don't like terminating ethernet cable (like me), the cost for finished assemblies with ethercons is about $20 more than the wire alone.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on December 17, 2013, 02:15:44 pm
This is the thread that never ends.

Until last night, I had only used my X32 Compact with the S16 once other than in testing.  Last night I used it for a Christmas event at my church where we needed more inputs than our Qu-16 could handle.  All went well EXCEPT for a few loud pops / noises before and after the performance. 

...

Luckily, the pops didn't happen during the performance.  I am not entirely sure but I think the issue was caused by the cable getting stepped on by audience members.  The first time it happened, I don't recall anyone being near the cable run but I could be mistaken.  This behavior is similar to what Dan Mortensen and others were trying to troubleshoot near the beginning of this thread.  I am uncertain if the noise was caused by the S16 disconnecting since I was unable to get a look at the console screen before things were back to normal but I suspect it did drop out.

Using the same cable as last night, I successfully recreated a similar dropout / pop at home by pinching it with a pair of pliers.  After pinching 6 or 8 locations on the cable, the S16/X32 finally lost connection.  As long as I squeezed the cable, the X32/S16 would stay disconnected but appear to try to reconnect now and then.  I continued pinching in different locations for a while and was only able to cause disconnection 1 out of about 15 pinches.  The pop that occurred live wasn't exactly like the one at home but that could be because I don't have 26 mics or DI's plugged into the console at home, only one mic on the S16. 

Hi Corey,

This does sound similar to one of the two problems we and I were able to create. The first one, which initiated my interest in the subject, was due to a simultaneous pulling and squeezing on an Ethernet cable. Stopping the pulling but maintaining the squeezing ended the problem, starting the pulling (not using a huge force BTW) started it again. The second was at our workshop using a very large force and either stomping on or squeezing while pulling the cable. The first one, I could maintain the disruption as long as there was cable movement, the second (stomping or squeezing/pulling) was only momentary. We weren't able to generate any duration.



It seems to me that there are two issues at play with the X32/S16 connection.  The first and most easily repeatable by me is the static discharge issue when using unshielded cable or cable without Ethercons.  The second is the issue of physical movement of the cable causing a loss of connection between the systems.  It is unfortunate that this console/stage box setup is so sensitive to these things but I have confidence that a heavier cable that holds the pairs in place better may not have any issues.

I feel the same way, with the addition that "holds the pairs in place better" means that the pairs are either farther apart (via spacers or some kind of filler material like the Gepco which encases each pair in a block of stuff so they can't move relative to each other), or there is some kind of additional bulk like a second jacket (ala the quad Ethernet cable assemblies) around the individual Ethernet cable that prevents distension in the twisted pair relationships. Bonding the wires within each individual pairs does not seem to do it, as the original cable that showed me the problem was a Belden with bonded pairs but a very thin overall jacket.

I don't know if a shield alone is sufficient to avoid the problem; your experience is saying "no".


For any interested, here's a link to the multitrack recording of one of the dropouts from last night.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8899207/2013-12-16_X32_S16_Dropout_Example.zip
There is some obvious digital crap happening on most, but not all, of the S16 connected channels (17-29).

Just to be sure that what you intended to send is what I'm hearing, there seem to be 29 examples, each 5 seconds long. Most of them are the same, with a guy saying something and laughing, ending with "not dirty" or something like that, one has a guy saying "what IS that?", the rest are either quiet or quiet with a disruption at the same point as all the rest.

It's interesting that all tracks don't have the same disruption, and that the disruption doesn't sound exactly the same on each track.

There are only some that have the same duration of white noise as the others, the rest sound kind of like a rim shot on the side of a drum to me. The ones with the white noise (20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 29) sound a little different one to another, but are the most similar to what I heard originally. FWIW.

Why don't they all sound the same?

Thanks for this, Corey. I really feel like we are a little closer to figuring this out.

Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on December 17, 2013, 04:21:31 pm
Just to be sure that what you intended to send is what I'm hearing, there seem to be 29 examples, each 5 seconds long. Most of them are the same, with a guy saying something and laughing, ending with "not dirty" or something like that, one has a guy saying "what IS that?", the rest are either quiet or quiet with a disruption at the same point as all the rest.

...

There are only some that have the same duration of white noise as the others, the rest sound kind of like a rim shot on the side of a drum to me. The ones with the white noise (20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 28, 29) sound a little different one to another, but are the most similar to what I heard originally. FWIW.

Why don't they all sound the same?


Yes, 29 tracks, 5 seconds in length represent tracks 1-29 from the X32.  Tracks 1-16 were analog inputs onboard the X32 Compact, tracks 17-29 were from the S16 (I didn't record tracks 30-32 because I wasn't using them).  Many of the tracks have mics plugged in, some have DI's.  The trailing sound is the remnant of the noise through the house and the monitors.  Some mics picked it up more than others.  This 5 second section occurred a few minutes after the performance concluded when people were milling around and talking.

Here's the input list for the linked wav files:
Code: [Select]
Analog snake to onboard inputs
1  Kick mic
2  TR mic
3  TF mic
4  OH mic
5  Bass DI
6  EG mic
7  EG mic
8  Kurzweil DI
9  Nord L DI
10 Nord R DI
11 --
12 --
13 --
14 Vocal USR mic
15 Vocal USC mic
16 --

Digital snake inputs from S16
17 AG SR DI
18 AG SL DI
19 Aux Instr mic
20 --
21 Lecturn mic
22 Vocal DSR mic
23 Vocal DSC mic
24 Vocal DSL mic
25 --
26 --
27 Choir mic
28 Choir mic
29 Piano mic

It's interesting to note that when looking at the waveform of the noise, it varies from track to track with some tracks without noise.  None of the onboard analog inputs had this digital noise, only the S16 ones.  The waveforms seems to randomly jump from -inf (0?) to a fixed positive value.  Every track appears to jump between -inf and the same value but I haven't checked to see if it's actually the same value or just close.  Not all of the digital noise starts at the same point but most do.  That may be due to input buffering on the console?

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Randall Cook on January 01, 2014, 11:49:46 pm
I've read through this entire post and others.  I have yet to see a definitive answer on whether to use SHIELDED or UNshielded cat5e cable for use with the X32 system (or any other system).

I am currently using an X32 with a single S16.  I'd like to use an additional S16 in the near future.

I've used this system on about 12-15 events recently with same gear setup each time, several different venues.  During setup at the last event, we all heard a loud pop.  We couldn't figure out where it came from.  After playing a half an hours worth of pre-show iPod music, the band went on and during the first song, all sound dropped out without warning.

It was the snake (cat5e cable).  We quickly ran an analog snake and were back on.

I always run the cat5e with an XLR mic cable for DMX control of the lighting.  Every once in a while, I also run an AC cable with them.

The cat5e i have been using is 250' and it does NOT have neutrik or locking ends, just the standard RJ45.  It is UTP.

This was the first time I'd heard the noise/pop and had any issues with this system.

Is this an issue with the cable?  If so, do I need UTP or STP?  Neutrik locking?

If so, best place you recommend for the cable with ends terminated at 250'?

Thank you!
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tommy Peel on January 02, 2014, 12:06:23 am
I've read through this entire post and others.  I have yet to see a definitive answer on whether to use SHIELDED or UNshielded cat5e cable for use with the X32 system (or any other system).

I am currently using an X32 with a single S16.  I'd like to use an additional S16 in the near future.

I've used this system on about 12-15 events recently with same gear setup each time, several different venues.  During setup at the last event, we all heard a loud pop.  We couldn't figure out where it came from.  After playing a half an hours worth of pre-show iPod music, the band went on and during the first song, all sound dropped out without warning.

It was the snake (cat5e cable).  We quickly ran an analog snake and were back on.

I always run the cat5e with an XLR mic cable for DMX control of the lighting.  Every once in a while, I also run an AC cable with them.

The cat5e i have been using is 250' and it does NOT have neutrik or locking ends, just the standard RJ45.  It is UTP.

This was the first time I'd heard the noise/pop and had any issues with this system.

Is this an issue with the cable?  If so, do I need UTP or STP?  Neutrik locking?

If so, best place you recommend for the cable with ends terminated at 250'?

Thank you!

Having followed this issue for a while, the answer is STP with ethercon connectors is the ONLY way to make a reliable connection. Here it is from one of the Behringer reps:

Dear Guys,

As indicated back in May, use the following cable:
1 - CAT-5e Shielded Cables ONLY 
2 - Ethercon terminated cable ends
3 - Maximum AES50 cable length 100 meters (300')

I have used the ProCo, (Pro Co 300' Shielded Cat 5e Ethercon Cable).  It has a robust casing, Ethercon ends and is Shielded CAT-5e.  In the US Sweetwater carries this cable in-stock, (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EtherShld200), you can select many different lengths up to 300'.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Randall Cook on January 02, 2014, 12:45:08 am
Having followed this issue for a while, the answer is STP with ethercon connectors is the ONLY way to make a reliable connection. Here it is from one of the Behringer reps:

Sent from my Nexus 4 running OmniROM 4.4 KitKat using Tapatalk Pro

Thank you for the reply Tommy!
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Lasse Paasikko on January 19, 2014, 11:30:06 am
Quote:
"Dear Guys,

As indicated back in May, use the following cable:
1 - CAT-5e Shielded Cables ONLY 
2 - Ethercon terminated cable ends
3 - Maximum AES50 cable length 100 meters (300')

I have used the ProCo, (Pro Co 300' Shielded Cat 5e Ethercon Cable).  It has a robust casing, Ethercon ends and is Shielded CAT-5e.  In the US Sweetwater carries this cable in-stock, (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EtherShld200), you can select many different lengths up to 300'."

Any recommendations for this kind of cable found in Europe?

Lasse
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Ng on January 20, 2014, 04:54:58 am
Hi all,
I am trying make my own ethercon cables by re-terminating our cables because we already have shielded cat5e permanently installed. I was wondering if anyone knows if the metal outer shell of the ethercon connector is connected to the shielding of the cat5 cable? I am trying to understand how the ethercon connector helps compared to bare RJ45. If the shielding were connected to the metal shell, that would mean the X32/S16 were connected/grounded together, which makes sense. If not though, exactly what benefit is the shell adding? Does the extra shielding from EMI that the metal shell provide matter that much? Could I get away with wrapping tin foil around the AES50 ports?
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 20, 2014, 07:24:31 am
Hi all,
I am trying make my own

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on January 20, 2014, 04:39:53 pm
Hi all,
I am trying make my own ethercon cables by re-terminating our cables because we already have shielded cat5e permanently installed. I was wondering if anyone knows if the metal outer shell of the ethercon connector is connected to the shielding of the cat5 cable? I am trying to understand how the ethercon connector helps compared to bare RJ45. If the shielding were connected to the metal shell, that would mean the X32/S16 were connected/grounded together, which makes sense. If not though, exactly what benefit is the shell adding? Does the extra shielding from EMI that the metal shell provide matter that much? Could I get away with wrapping tin foil around the AES50 ports?

One advantage of the Ethercon shell is to physically protect the RJ45 connector from damage, particularly during packing and transport. 

I just went and measured continuity on a couple of Ethercon cables and found this:

ProPlex 100': Shell to shell mesures 1-2 Ohms
(Edit) Rapco Duracat (6e) 150': Shell to shell is open (not connected)

Interesting....
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 20, 2014, 05:20:54 pm
Hi all,
I am trying make my own ethercon cables by re-terminating our cables because we already have shielded cat5e permanently installed. I was wondering if anyone knows if the metal outer shell of the ethercon connector is connected to the shielding of the cat5 cable? I am trying to understand how the ethercon connector helps compared to bare RJ45. If the shielding were connected to the metal shell, that would mean the X32/S16 were connected/grounded together, which makes sense. If not though, exactly what benefit is the shell adding? Does the extra shielding from EMI that the metal shell provide matter that much? Could I get away with wrapping tin foil around the AES50 ports?
You need to ask behringer customer support to get a definitive answer. We are mostly guessing. Hopefully they understand the mechanism and can give you a good answer.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on January 20, 2014, 05:26:31 pm
Hi all,
I am trying make my own ethercon cables by re-terminating our cables because we already have shielded cat5e permanently installed. I was wondering if anyone knows if the metal outer shell of the ethercon connector is connected to the shielding of the cat5 cable? I am trying to understand how the ethercon connector helps compared to bare RJ45. If the shielding were connected to the metal shell, that would mean the X32/S16 were connected/grounded together, which makes sense. If not though, exactly what benefit is the shell adding? Does the extra shielding from EMI that the metal shell provide matter that much? Could I get away with wrapping tin foil around the AES50 ports?

John, The cable shield is connected to the metal Ethercon shell by way of the metal on the outside of the shielded RJ45 connector.  A few folks further back in the thread performed static discharge tests with various configurations of shielded and unshielded cable with Ethercons and without.  It was determined that the Ethercon connector helps keep the system from dropping out when subjected to a static discharge.  The reason for this is unclear but the results from testing are quite conclusive.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 20, 2014, 06:25:57 pm
@Corey I didn't ask the question... I stand by my advice but the OP is free to listen to anybody.

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on January 20, 2014, 06:42:35 pm
@Corey I didn't ask the question... I stand by my advice but the OP is free to listen to anybody.

JR

JR,
John Ng is the person who asked the question I quoted.  I've been around here long enough to know better than to disagree with you. Since John Ng was new to the forum, I thought a summary of this endless thread may be helpful as it related to his question.

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Ng on January 20, 2014, 07:21:57 pm
Thanks for the responses guys. I've actually read the whole thread, but skimmed some parts so thanks for the confirmation/summary anyways Corey :)

@Mark
Considering the guy who posted the 'official' response from Behringer suggested a ProCo cable, maybe it doesn't matter. We'll try to recrimp with the metal RJ45s if possible, but if we can't we'll see how things turn out.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on January 20, 2014, 11:07:28 pm

...@Mark
Considering the guy who posted the 'official' response from Behringer suggested a ProCo cable, maybe it doesn't matter. We'll try to recrimp with the metal RJ45s if possible, but if we can't we'll see how things turn out.

I made a mistake last night posting, the open cable was a Rapco Duracat 150NN (6e) Ethercon cable, not ProCo.  I have edited my original post. I have no knowledge of the ProCo cables.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 20, 2014, 11:42:44 pm
I made a mistake last night posting, the open cable was a Rapco Duracat 150NN (6e) Ethercon cable, not ProCo.  I have edited my original post. I have no knowledge of the ProCo cables.

I have the ProCo cable recommended by Joe Sanborn.  I haven't checked for backshell continuity yet, but I will.

We had a show a few days ago with band-provided FOH, that used a run of DuraCat6 w/Ethercon between their S16s and X32.  Cold, very low humidity, and 2 dropouts due to loss of sync.  They seemed to happen when a performer would cross the lovely oriental rug and go upstage to the Bitch Mic.

We also had a band-provided rig with Yammy CL3 at monitors, CL1 at FOH, iPad apps for both that ran on 5gHz RF, and gain-shared a single Rio 3216.  Sweet.  No drop outs or other anomalies.

At any rate I'll post back after I put a meter to the Ethercons...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Morgan Calma on January 22, 2014, 12:16:45 pm
Hate to throw more problems in to this when it sounds like its figured out.
 I have and X32 with two S16 as an up-fit(one in the amp rack and one mobile)and started to have dropouts.  I was waiting on Behringer to spec a cable for reinstall the UTP to STP when I figured I would test with some production style STP to confirm others findings.  I found when using 150ft of ProPlex shielded (foil with drain) cable I could still cause the drop out via the electronic igniter from a lighter. 

My video is a bit poor but you can see all the import things
http://youtu.be/H_cTXA9kNvY

Things I found in my testing to try and avoid reinstall cable

-shocking my X32 I could not make the sync drop with any style cable/connector.   -using Behringer loop back test (connect port a and b of the same unit together) I could make the S16 drop with all cable/connectors but never made the x32 drop.
-Using Ferite beads to UTP is as effective as shielded cable with no ethercon.
-adding grounds and removing grounds changed nothing
-changing clock master to the s16 changed nothing
-adding a dn9610 into the mix changed nothing
-verified with a multi meter.... the ethecon makes a better connection from the shielding of STP to the chassis ground.

Given the way the s16 failed on me, I would be interested to know if you connect a Midas compatible rack to the x32 do you still have problems with UTP and/or STP?  Could the problem be all in the S16?
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 22, 2014, 12:35:09 pm
Hate to throw more problems in to this

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 22, 2014, 07:31:25 pm
Hate to throw more problems in to this when it sounds like its figured out.
 I have and X32 with two S16 as an up-fit(one in the amp rack and one mobile)and started to have dropouts.  I was waiting on Behringer to spec a cable for reinstall the UTP to STP when I figured I would test with some production style STP to confirm others findings.  I found when using 150ft of ProPlex shielded (foil with drain) cable I could still cause the drop out via the electronic igniter from a lighter. 

My video is a bit poor but you can see all the import things
http://youtu.be/H_cTXA9kNvY

Things I found in my testing to try and avoid reinstall cable

-shocking my X32 I could not make the sync drop with any style cable/connector.   -using Behringer loop back test (connect port a and b of the same unit together) I could make the S16 drop with all cable/connectors but never made the x32 drop.
-Using Ferite beads to UTP is as effective as shielded cable with no ethercon.
-adding grounds and removing grounds changed nothing
-changing clock master to the s16 changed nothing
-adding a dn9610 into the mix changed nothing
-verified with a multi meter.... the ethecon makes a better connection from the shielding of STP to the chassis ground.


Thanks for posting this, Morgan. I have no ideas for you, but some questions:

1: How do you add ferrite beads to a UTP cable?

2: Since Brian earlier posted that an STP with no Ethercon is ineffective, does that mean the ferrite beads are equally ineffective?

3: Who put the connectors on the cable, and was it then tested to meet spec?

4: Were the dropouts happening to both the amp rack mounted S16 and the loose one? You only showed the loose one in the video.

Good luck,
Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Morgan Calma on January 23, 2014, 09:52:18 am

1: How do you add ferrite beads to a UTP cable?

-they are snap on style I had floating around.  For reference they have a KG logo and RFC-13 and the core measures 1.1in long with an ID 0.57in. wire wrap one time around with a loop about 3 to 4ins in the hope of not bring the cable out of spec.

2: Since Brian earlier posted that an STP with no Ethercon is ineffective, does that mean the ferrite beads are equally ineffective?

-the UTP with beads does not make it immune to drop outs so yes it is ineffective, but I did see an improvement in the ability to withstand ESD as seen with STP without ethercon.   My S16 drops on the first or second hit of the electron igniter on UTP, but I had to work harder to make it fail with the beads on the UTP.  It also synced back up faster then the plan UTP

3: Who put the connectors on the cable, and was it then tested to meet spec?
-I can not confirm who assembled the cable/connectors. cable was tested in other network devices, links with the X32/S16 and shield to shield, shell to shield and shell to shell all pass continuity test

4: Were the dropouts happening to both the amp rack mounted S16 and the loose one? You only showed the loose one in the video.
-the only one used in the test was the loose one.  the other unit was not connect at all.  I will test the one in the rack when I have some time to remove it and bring it closer.


unfortunately I will have a month long show using the x32 (no stage racks), so I don't know if I will have any more update. but I hope to try  S16 to S16, and a Midas pro rack soon.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 27, 2014, 10:39:49 pm
-they are snap on style I had floating around.  For reference they have a KG logo and RFC-13 and the core measures 1.1in long with an ID 0.57in. wire wrap one time around with a loop about 3 to 4ins in the hope of not bring the cable out of spec.

-the UTP with beads does not make it immune to drop outs so yes it is ineffective, but I did see an improvement in the ability to withstand ESD as seen with STP without ethercon.   My S16 drops on the first or second hit of the electron igniter on UTP, but I had to work harder to make it fail with the beads on the UTP.  It also synced back up faster then the plan UTP

SNIP

Hi Morgan,

Hope your month-long show is going well, and thanks for this info.

Based on the glimmer of hope you offered here about ferrite beads, I asked my AES engineer buddies about the problem Saturday night at a gathering we had, and they said that yes, adding ferrite beads might fix the problem.

I got some of these     http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Q94CJS/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1      , along with a large ferrite core that one of my friends happened to have there, and modified a BBQ sparker to provide the spark. That one is about half the size of my fist, with about an inch hole through it.

The cable is a Gepco Tactical Quad Ethernet cable (four CAT5e UTP with individual jackets, all inside a larger, thicker jacket). The four CAT5e's were prepared as follows:
- one with one ferrite bead on each end;
- one with two beads on each end;
- one with the large core on the S16 end and with the cable going through the core and then looping through again once (all that would fit through without taking off the Ethercon), with nothing on the console end since I only had one;
- no beads on the fourth one as the reference.

Cutting to the chase, all of them showed loss of sync, with the large cored cable taking a bit longer to do so and needing more of a hit to lose sync. But it still lost it.

Connecting a Proplex shielded version of the same thing, it didn't lose sync no matter how long you hit it with a spark (my BBQ thing is battery powered and sparks as long as you hold the trigger).

Rats. I don't see any hope here for using existing UTP. As I said earlier itt, the quad Proplex is much too stiff and unwieldy to use, at least in my scheme of things, and I feel the need for redundant cable runs so that a quad cable is perfect. The Gepco doesn't come in STP, and I haven't found any besides the Proplex.

Phooey.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on January 27, 2014, 11:29:11 pm
Hi Morgan,

Hope your month-long show is going well, and thanks for this info.

Based on the glimmer of hope you offered here about ferrite beads, I asked my AES engineer buddies about the problem Saturday night at a gathering we had, and they said that yes, adding ferrite beads might fix the problem.

I got some of these     http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Q94CJS/ref=oh_details_o05_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1      , along with a large ferrite core that one of my friends happened to have there, and modified a BBQ sparker to provide the spark. That one is about half the size of my fist, with about an inch hole through it.

The cable is a Gepco Tactical Quad Ethernet cable (four CAT5e UTP with individual jackets, all inside a larger, thicker jacket). The four CAT5e's were prepared as follows:
- one with one ferrite bead on each end;
- one with two beads on each end;
- one with the large core on the S16 end and with the cable going through the core and then looping through again once (all that would fit through without taking off the Ethercon), with nothing on the console end since I only had one;
- no beads on the fourth one as the reference.

Cutting to the chase, all of them showed loss of sync, with the large cored cable taking a bit longer to do so and needing more of a hit to lose sync. But it still lost it.

Connecting a Proplex shielded version of the same thing, it didn't lose sync no matter how long you hit it with a spark (my BBQ thing is battery powered and sparks as long as you hold the trigger).

Rats. I don't see any hope here for using existing UTP. As I said earlier itt, the quad Proplex is much too stiff and unwieldy to use, at least in my scheme of things, and I feel the need for redundant cable runs so that a quad cable is perfect. The Gepco doesn't come in STP, and I haven't found any besides the Proplex.

Phooey.

I'm glad that my results are being duplicated.  Shielded is the ONLY way to go.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 28, 2014, 01:45:40 am
I'm glad that my results are being duplicated.  Shielded is the ONLY way to go.

While I'm sure it's pleasing to be confirmed in your findings, I am hoping for a loophole that seems to not exist. I hope you don't blame me for that....

I WANT to believe!!! And make my own reality.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on January 28, 2014, 06:38:55 am
Quote
Rats. I don't see any hope here for using existing UTP. As I said earlier itt, the quad Proplex is much too stiff and unwieldy to use, at least in my scheme of things, and I feel the need for redundant cable runs so that a quad cable is perfect. The Gepco doesn't come in STP, and I haven't found any besides the Proplex.

Phooey.

I have been recommending Proplex to everyone who needs a good Cat5 cable.  You either want a high quality, rugged cable for your rig or you want to be cheap and deal with dropouts, which is it?  Are you so unwilling to deal with a slightly stiffer cable that you will risk using an inferior product and the side effects that come along with it? 

What would your customers say if they found out you could have bought a better cable that would have prevented the pops and drop outs but it would take a few extra minutes for you to roll up?  If you really feel you need a redundant Cat5 run, why not just buy a couple of the single runs rather that the quad cable?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on January 28, 2014, 09:32:41 am
...  If you really feel you need a redundant Cat5 run, why not just buy a couple of the single runs rather that the quad cable?

Curiously, I would think the best redundant cable strategy would be 2 different physical cables, each taking a different route.  Then if someone drives a forklift over your quad core,...

Me (just moved to Cat snakes 2 weeks ago), I am carrying a spare single Cat5e in the trunk, just in case.  Certainly not as good as having the backup on the ground,....

ProPlex for primary, Duracat as a backup.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 29, 2014, 04:11:34 am
I have been recommending Proplex to everyone who needs a good Cat5 cable.  You either want a high quality, rugged cable for your rig or you want to be cheap and deal with dropouts, which is it?  Are you so unwilling to deal with a slightly stiffer cable that you will risk using an inferior product and the side effects that come along with it? 

What would your customers say if they found out you could have bought a better cable that would have prevented the pops and drop outs but it would take a few extra minutes for you to roll up?  If you really feel you need a redundant Cat5 run, why not just buy a couple of the single runs rather that the quad cable?

Dear Loudmusic,

First, you are confusing the process with the end result. I realize that the way I am working this out may not have come through the Internet in its fullest entirety.

Second, thank you for the amusing part suggesting that my favorite path is the cheap one. I have pointed this out to my wife, who has been pretty sure that I consistently take the opposite route, and look forward to making my crew and my local audio friends aware of this allegation by a respected member of the audio community here.

Thirdly and finally, to say that the quad Proplex is "slightly stiffer" is a clear indicator that you have never personally tried to handle it, and that you should reserve an opinion about its properties until you do. OTOH, I have never handled the single Proplex and have not offered an opinion about it, only about the quad.

Sincerely, etc.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 29, 2014, 04:23:04 am
Curiously, I would think the best redundant cable strategy would be 2 different physical cables, each taking a different route.  Then if someone drives a forklift over your quad core,...

Hi Mark,

One of the very surprising results of our "Audio Over Ethernet Cable" workshop last June was the degree to which a forklift (in our case a scissor lift, but roughly equivalent in weight and tire solidity) can repeatedly drive over an active CAT5e cable on a hard floor and not affect its performance on that day. I'm not alleging anything about the cable's long term prospects, but a cable which was pounded as flat as it could be not only continued to carry signal without interruption, but when removed from the console/snake head and measured with a very sensitive CAT cable evaluation system (Fluke, model number I forget, a $14000+ gizmo), it passed all the parameter tests!

All bets are off if the forklift drags and severs, of course.

I think we are moving in a direction that will require more than one Ethernet cable in our snakes, and I'm getting ready for that now. I already have some uses for multiple cables with the X32 that I can describe if you want. You may not have those uses, I don't know.

And I agree that it is a good practice to have a spare single cable at the gigs which is only run out in emergencies, but that does not preclude multiple runs as a standard.

Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Bolly on January 29, 2014, 08:04:19 am
Dan,

I've been casually following this thread and found what seems to be some interesting parallels between the X32/S16 connection issues and a technical note issued by Digico for use with their consoles that connect to their D-Rack (CAT5 stage rack).

The technical note calls out 3 types of acceptable STP CAT5 cable that must be terminated with the Ethercon NE8 shells, and each cable is specified with its own unique type of ferrite clamp.

The one thing that never made much sense to me, in looking at the specs between the 3 types of ferrite clamps, is that I could not find a certain spec that tied all 3 together.  That is, I can only figure that Digico did some type of field testing and determined that these specific ferrite clamps were the appropriate ones to use with that specific type of cable, but I do not know what properties of the STP cable (presumably) make those types of ferrite clamps the correct ones to use.

Regardless, this is what they call out as acceptable cable and clamps:


In all cases, they specify that the cable must be terminated by Neutrik NE8-MC1 Ethercon shells.

I'm assuming that the ferrite clamp that Morgan calls out is a Kitagawa part as well.  They seem to be difficult to find in the states, but not totally impossible.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on January 29, 2014, 08:50:32 am
...
I think we are moving in a direction that will require more than one Ethernet cable in our snakes, and I'm getting ready for that now. I already have some uses for multiple cables with the X32 that I can describe if you want. You may not have those uses, I don't know....

I'd do need a separate control network between FOH and stage since the DSP got moved to the stage when I went Cat5 a few weeks ago. Useful also for wireless mics (WSM) where the RX is on stage.  My tentative solution is a wireless AP (extender) in the stage rack.  Bought the WAP for the stage box but haven't hooked it up yet.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Per Sovik on January 29, 2014, 09:02:59 am
Anybody remember thinking: "Digital stagebox, good, no more running a big heavy snake, just an easy cat5, whoopee!!!!"?

Life have taught me one thing: Ignorance might lead you to think there is an easier solution.  ;)
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on January 29, 2014, 09:08:46 am
Anybody remember thinking: "Digital stagebox, good, no more running a big heavy snake, just an easy cat5, whoopee!!!!"?

Life have taught me one thing: Ignorance might lead you to think there is an easier solution.  ;)

:)

Still, my Cat5e + stage box takes up a LOT less pack space than the old 24*8 snake, Even with a dual core I'm probably at 1/2 the pack volume and weight and even though the single ProPlex is stiff and sticky it is still a lot easier to wrangle than an inch of copper.  Maybe not the quad....  I haven't seen it.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on January 29, 2014, 09:16:44 am
...
TMB.com Proplex PCCAT5EP cable with Kitagawa type SFC-6 ferrite clamp

...

I'm assuming that the ferrite clamp that Morgan calls out is a Kitagawa part as well.  They seem to be difficult to find in the states, but not totally impossible.

One Kitagawa SFC-6 source: http://www.1sourcecomponents.com/store/product_info.php/kitagawa-sfc-split-ferrite-snap-cable-629ohms-p-451510

$3.71 each
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on January 29, 2014, 09:18:51 am
I just went and measured continuity on a couple of Ethercon cables and found this:

ProPlex 100': Shell to shell mesures 1-2 Ohms
Rapco Duracat (6e) 150': Shell to shell is open (not connected)

Interesting....

Anyone else check their shell-to-shell connection?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Per Sovik on January 29, 2014, 11:21:24 am
Anyone else check their shell-to-shell connection?

My life has been easy (despite my earlier post somewhat in jest) after I got the S16 and later also the X32Rack, and the lack of issues have meant that I haven't really checked my equipment.
My thinking might be wrong here, but my guess is that the connected/not connected conundrum might be greatly influenced by how well the equipment is tied together by a common grounding. If all the communicating stuff has a solid common ground, all discharge should go there, and one doesn't want any discharge through the cat5 shielding. If the common ground is weak, one will want the shielding to be properly connected all the way so that any discharge doesn't have to jump any gaps.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Bolly on January 29, 2014, 11:58:49 am
One Kitagawa SFC-6 source: http://www.1sourcecomponents.com/store/product_info.php/kitagawa-sfc-split-ferrite-snap-cable-629ohms-p-451510

$3.71 each

Yes, but they have a $50 minimum order.  The only place I've found with those parts that doesn't wants $25 each for them - c'est la vie.  Fortunately I'm not in a hurry, this was only to build a backup cable.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 29, 2014, 02:00:06 pm
Anyone else check their shell-to-shell connection?


My thinking might be wrong here, but my guess is that the connected/not connected conundrum might be greatly influenced by how well the equipment is tied together by a common grounding. If all the communicating stuff has a solid common ground, all discharge should go there, and one doesn't want any discharge through the cat5 shielding. If the common ground is weak, one will want the shielding to be properly connected all the way so that any discharge doesn't have to jump any gaps.

Ahem.

Coincidentally, a friend whose other work bought a Midas Pro 3 also got the Midas shielded Ethercon cable with it, but is not using it, loaned it to me last night. I checked it between the S16's and console with the sparker, and found it just as useless as unshielded cable. Measuring shell-to-shell showed no continuity, and what looks like totally plastic RJ45's.

Also, earlier in this thread Brian Wynn pretty conclusively showed that both UTP with Ethercons and STP without Ethercons were equivalently lousy. I inferred that shell continuity is key, and what I found last night confirms that importance, IMHO.

For the record, both his setup and mine are powering S16's and console from the same AC with short grounded cables.

UPDATE: He just came over to reterminate the cable, and discovered that it was UTP after all, despite being sold to him as the correct cable for the Midas console, which specs STP. He's going to go back to the vendor to see what the deal was. FWIW, it sounded like the vendor simply had given him the Official Midas cable, so we'll see.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 29, 2014, 02:17:15 pm
For very high edge rate signals (like an electrical spark) the wire impedance may be significantly inductive. The model for what is really going on between the two chassis grounds is not obvious (to me).

The recent discussion about adding a ferrite clamp (to increase inductance?) is likewise not obvious (to me).

I will continue to follow this with academic interest.   8) Good luck to all following this with commercial interest.  :o

JR
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on January 29, 2014, 05:59:37 pm
Just a FYI for everyone.  I have had zero problems since I changed my CAT5 to ProPlex Shielded CAT5e.  Since the test I have over 50 shows with ProPlex STP with Ethercon ends.  It's the only solution for me.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 30, 2014, 05:24:08 pm
So I ran my first service on our new X32. 3rd time I've mixed on one.

We had two dropouts in 5 hours. Both were during speaking portions, didn't notice any drop outs during the worship set.

Currently using UTP with ethercon from the board to the first box, and unshielded with no ethercon box to box.

I guess whether we buy or not will depend on how annoyed people are with the drop outs.

The board and boxes are on different circuits. The board is connected to a UPS, the snakes are not. No idea how much, if at all, that is contributing to the issue. I can take the board off the UPS but have no way to put the board and snakes on the same circuit.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Rob Spence on January 30, 2014, 08:57:17 pm
So I ran my first service on our new X32. 3rd time I've mixed on one.

We had two dropouts in 5 hours. Both were during speaking portions, didn't notice any drop outs during the worship set.

Currently using UTP with ethercon from the board to the first box, and unshielded with no ethercon box to box.

I guess whether we buy or not will depend on how annoyed people are with the drop outs.

The board and boxes are on different circuits. The board is connected to a UPS, the snakes are not. No idea how much, if at all, that is contributing to the issue. I can take the board off the UPS but have no way to put the board and snakes on the same circuit.

Sigh, Behringer has said over and over that STP with Ethercon is the only supported configuration.

Why not use the cable they spec?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 30, 2014, 09:04:43 pm
Sigh, Behringer has said over and over that STP with Ethercon is the only supported configuration.

Why not use the cable they spec?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Because we already had the UTP with ethercon, and the STP is $300. We were already almost over budget just getting the board and snakes.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chris Clark on January 30, 2014, 09:25:37 pm
What are the old adages? "Buy once, cry once?" Or would "The wrong equipment at the right price is still the wrong equipment" apply more here?

No offense, but you posted this as if you were surprised that the dropouts happened. It's pretty clear that this is a major risk of not using the proper cabling.
I was pretty sure some of the video tests in this thread indicated that it made no difference whether or not they were on the same circuit or not. I haven't paid too much attention when my S16s power up, but I'd imagine they take at least a few seconds to fully power up and resync - my guess would the the dropout if it were a power issue to the S16 would end up being even longer (or more drops in a short period as the S16 disconnects, X32 recovers with no connection, then drops again as the S16 reconnects) than the dropout caused by not using the proper interconnect cable and as such I would strongly recommend looking into a UPS for that end as well, even if it is an old one from someone's office that will only provide power for 10 seconds - all you're going to be able to do is try to hold the system up during very quick power inconsistencies, obviously if the power goes out completely for any longer than 1/2 a second your amps will drop too and it will be understandable that you need to wait for things to come back up before sound resumes, I think the congregation will understand. However dropouts in the middle of a service where nothing else is anomalous will either get you glares from everyone or put a bad reputation on the equipment even though you're technically using it out of spec.

On the flip side of this topic - We used our X32 and S16 all last summer and had absolutely no dropouts whatsoever using UTP/no ECs... (Obviously this was before this information had come out and was finally confirmed on using STP/ECs and the dangers of not doing so)... You can still bet your butt I'll be pushing to upgrade it properly because I'd rather know that I did everything to prevent dropouts even though they weren't happening vs letting it go and having the dropouts start later this year and then getting the bad rap from everyone about how the equipment is failling.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 30, 2014, 09:38:59 pm
What are the old adages? "Buy once, cry once?" Or would "The wrong equipment at the right price is still the wrong equipment" apply more here?

No offense, but you posted this as if you were surprised that the dropouts happened. It's pretty clear that this is a major risk of not using the proper cabling.
I was pretty sure some of the video tests in this thread indicated that it made no difference whether or not they were on the same circuit or not. I haven't paid too much attention when my S16s power up, but I'd imagine they take at least a few seconds to fully power up and resync - my guess would the the dropout if it were a power issue to the S16 would end up being even longer (or more drops in a short period as the S16 disconnects, X32 recovers with no connection, then drops again as the S16 reconnects) than the dropout caused by not using the proper interconnect cable and as such I would strongly recommend looking into a UPS for that end as well, even if it is an old one from someone's office that will only provide power for 10 seconds - all you're going to be able to do is try to hold the system up during very quick power inconsistencies, obviously if the power goes out completely for any longer than 1/2 a second your amps will drop too and it will be understandable that you need to wait for things to come back up before sound resumes, I think the congregation will understand. However dropouts in the middle of a service where nothing else is anomalous will either get you glares from everyone or put a bad reputation on the equipment even though you're technically using it out of spec.

On the flip side of this topic - We used our X32 and S16 all last summer and had absolutely no dropouts whatsoever using UTP/no ECs... (Obviously this was before this information had come out and was finally confirmed on using STP/ECs and the dangers of not doing so)... You can still bet your butt I'll be pushing to upgrade it properly because I'd rather know that I did everything to prevent dropouts even though they weren't happening vs letting it go and having the dropouts start later this year and then getting the bad rap from everyone about how the equipment is failling.

Apparently I need to work on the way I word things so that I convey the proper tone.

I wasn't surprised, since we had the same issue when we demo'd the X32 a few months back. Plus, after reading this thread I expected it to happen. That said, I was hopeful that it might not be an issue, since there are a number of people using UTP with no issues.

I was actually surprised at how much less frequent the drop outs were than with the last X32 we used. As I said, only two in 5 hours.

I brought up that using the UTP might be an issue but they wanted to wait and see how bad it would be before dropping $300 on another cable when we already had one run under the slab.

So, time will tell whether or not this issue bothers anyone enough to bite the bullet on the shielded cable.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Don Ernst on January 30, 2014, 10:20:51 pm
I have an idea that may save someone some money if this can be tested to work.  What if you just run a ground wire along with the UTP and connected the X32 and S16 chassis together?  It may work to save some money on an installed system.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chris Clark on January 30, 2014, 10:52:40 pm
My bad, apologies for jumping to conclusions.

Don, that is an interesting theory. Obviously you'd lose the true benefit of shielding as the STP was designed for, but if all it is doing in this case is locking together the potential from chassis to chassis it might work. I'm hoping Jason's mention of having UTP under the slab means it is in a conduit (otherwise replacing it with STP for him would be even harder!), but even if so you'd still have to fish the ground wire through the conduit without damaging the existing UTP... Depends on the size of the conduit on how hard that would be. By the time you do that it might almost be better to bite the bullet for the STP rather than fish through the conduit multiple times.

Perhaps someone who has done the test setups already with the modified lighter could test UTP with a separate ground wire tied to the ethercon shells and see whether it would be an effective band-aid style retrofit for those installations where UTP was already used?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on January 31, 2014, 12:35:51 am
I have an idea that may save someone some money if this can be tested to work.  What if you just run a ground wire along with the UTP and connected the X32 and S16 chassis together?  It may work to save some money on an installed system.

Grounding the chassis of the X32 with the S16 does not alleviate the ESD dropout issue.

Perhaps someone who has done the test setups already with the modified lighter could test UTP with a separate ground wire tied to the ethercon shells and see whether it would be an effective band-aid style retrofit for those installations where UTP was already used?

I have not tried grounding the Ethercons directly.  That may have different results.  Might be worth a try as a temporary solution.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chris Clark on January 31, 2014, 02:06:09 am
I do remember seeing that video now that you mention it, and would guess that the ethercon shells might ground to something relating to the AES50 chips themselves, perhaps, instead of the chassis? (Having never opened up the X32 for myself, I don't know for sure) In theory there has to be some connection there for the shielding to have an effect on the static discharge dropout... I may need to find someone to study this phenomenon, we could publish a scientific finding and become rich...
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 31, 2014, 03:49:01 am
I have an idea that may save someone some money if this can be tested to work.  What if you just run a ground wire along with the UTP and connected the X32 and S16 chassis together?  It may work to save some money on an installed system.

Good idea, that is a permutation that hasn't been reported.

Until now.

I just tried it, and no such luck. No difference.

Used a 25' or so length of solid #14, 250' CAT5e. Shells had continuity between them with the addition of the #14, but no change in disruption. (Also believe they had continuity before, through the ground pins on the AC for S16 and console.)

Too bad, thanks for suggesting it. (JR suggested tying the consoles together with a separate ground long ago, but the wrapping around the shell part was the nuance that's different. I'm still getting used to the idea that I now have a modified BBQ lighter and can do these tests anytime.)
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 31, 2014, 02:54:39 pm
Would adding an ethercon connector to a shielded cable (as shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02dksd-eTzg) be enough to prevent drop outs? Or will I not have continuity?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 31, 2014, 03:00:30 pm
Sometimes there are simple answers to complex problems, but rarely one that has been this closely inspected for this long.

 it's always something.

JR

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Maly on January 31, 2014, 03:06:52 pm

Sometimes there are simple answers to complex problems, but rarely one that has been this closely inspected for this long.

 it's always something.

JR

+100


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 31, 2014, 03:59:10 pm
Would adding an ethercon connector to a shielded cable (as shown in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02dksd-eTzg) be enough to prevent drop outs? Or will I not have continuity?

Didn't want to watch the MINUTE AND A HALF commercial to see the content, but yes, adding an Ethercon to a shielded cable with a metal RJ45 works just fine. I did it with a Monoprice CAT6, and sparks were irrelevant to it. I think Brian Wynn's initial run of videos showed that, too.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 31, 2014, 04:01:26 pm
Sometimes there are simple answers to complex problems, but rarely one that has been this closely inspected for this long.

 it's always something.

JR

So what does it tell you that it's no help to add an additional ground wire between console and stage box? I thought that would indicate where the problem might be.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 31, 2014, 04:11:31 pm
Didn't want to watch the MINUTE AND A HALF commercial to see the content, but yes, adding an Ethercon to a shielded cable with a metal RJ45 works just fine. I did it with a Monoprice CAT6, and sparks were irrelevant to it. I think Brian Wynn's initial run of videos showed that, too.

Interesting, no commercial when I watched it.

I remember Brian mentioning taking the ethercon off and getting drop outs, then putting it back on and drop outs stopping. So I hoped that simply adding them would work.

I think it's worth trying. A regular old 150' STP Cat5e cable is only like $45 and the ethercon connector is less than $5, so if it works we'll be saving a lot of money.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on January 31, 2014, 04:21:59 pm
I think it's worth trying. A regular old 150' STP Cat5e cable is only like $45 and the ethercon connector is less than $5, so if it works we'll be saving a lot of money.

Be aware that two causes of dropouts have been shown (more may exist).  One is caused by electrostatic discharge and is fixed by shielded cable with Ethercons.  The 2nd is caused by movement of the cable or possibly movement of the pairs within the cable in relation to one another.  I have experienced dropouts while using STP with Ethercons and a $50 direct burial cable.  I think they were caused by someone stepping on the cable but I can't be sure.  I have since changed to ProPlex which is a heavy duty cable where the wire pairs are less likely to move around.  No problems to report yet but not enough shows to say one way or the other.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 31, 2014, 04:23:30 pm
Be aware that two causes of dropouts have been shown (more may exist).  One is caused by electrostatic discharge and is fixed by shielded cable with Ethercons.  The 2nd is caused by movement of the cable or possibly movement of the pairs within the cable in relation to one another.  I have experienced dropouts while using STP with Ethercons and a $50 direct burial cable.  I think they were caused by someone stepping on the cable but I can't be sure.  I have since changed to ProPlex which is a heavy duty cable where the wire pairs are less likely to move around.  No problems to report yet but not enough shows to say one way or the other.

I would hope that since this cable would be installed under the slab and never touched again, that it wouldn't need to be all that durable.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on January 31, 2014, 06:54:01 pm
I can confirm that adding a ethercon connector at both ends to a premade stp cat cable fixes the dropout issues. As far as the guys with dropouts because of cable movement I would suggest you buy a more robust cable.
You get what you pay for. Don't cheap out on the cable and you will be fine.

No problems to report since I changed over to proplex brand cat5.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chris Clark on February 01, 2014, 01:33:26 am
So what does it tell you that it's no help to add an additional ground wire between console and stage box? I thought that would indicate where the problem might be.

That's what I've been trying to figure out. Like I said without opening up the X32 to look under the hood (I won't be able to get at the one I have access to for another few weeks), particularly at the AES50 daughter card (I assume it's a DC, not built into the main board) I am only speculating that there's some level of disparity between the AES50 shielding and the chassis itself. When it was just the test of a ground wire between the two chassis (is that plural too???) My thought would be there was maybe a limiting resistance between the daughtercard and the chassis itself, and so the shocks could still plague the daughtercard. Now with the results from Dan, that connecting the ethercons together with a separate wire (that isn't the shield of an STP cable) that it is still affected, the only logical conclusion is there's a meaningful degree of full-blown shielding happening that can only be accomplished by the proper shielding around the cable for its entire length, not just as far as the ethercons. In pure electrical theory, since the interference isn't natively coming from around the cable itself, a jumper between the two ethercons should serve the same purpose as the shield of the STP - to eliminate the electrical potential difference between the daughtercard shielding and/or chassis. Given that we're talking extremely high frequencies here though, that starts to get outside of my days from electronics training 10+ years ago, so it is possibly something might still be induced into the UTP conductors when such a shock occurs, something that can't be prevented simply by tying them together, but by having the physical foil there.

At this point, however, despite my curiosity as well, I have to agree with JR (or, at least how I read his post) that this is getting overly complicated. The fact of the matter is STP w/ properly connected Ethercons seems to work >99% of the time, whereas any other method has a greatly increased potential for failure, and it seems YMMV with any of those other methods (as I said, we ran a whole summer on UTP without a dropout, other people can't go 5 minutes...)
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 01, 2014, 02:30:17 am
At this point, however, despite my curiosity as well, I have to agree with JR (or, at least how I read his post) that this is getting overly complicated. The fact of the matter is STP w/ properly connected Ethercons seems to work >99% of the time, whereas any other method has a greatly increased potential for failure, and it seems YMMV with any of those other methods (as I said, we ran a whole summer on UTP without a dropout, other people can't go 5 minutes...)

We had a band carrying a pair of S16 and an X32.  They used DuraCat6e (UTP) with Ethercon.  I asked the BE if he'd had static-related drop outs.  Nope, he said.

Twice that night, he did.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on February 01, 2014, 10:14:46 am
Just to be clear JR is saying the problem is complicated. I can only speculate that subtle distortions to the very high frequency digital data signal cause the digital brains to lose their place when communicating so have to re-sync and start over.

Apparently problems can be caused by momentarily changing the geometry of the wire pairs inside the cable. Another source of problems is when a static charge transients hits one of the two chassis.

I can imagine multiple different strategies. A more robust communication strategy, involving some redundancy so erroneous packets could be discarded and replaced seamlessly. If the redundancy was added in parallel there would be added cost, if the redundancy was in the serial data stream this would reduce data throughput or bandwidth).  If the cable is sensitive to flexing, a more rigid cable.

I ASSume they are already using best practices for this digital communication interface. It mostly works well. Live sound reinforcement may be more stressful and less accommodating of short dropouts than other typical applications. 

JR

PS: For the poster planning to bury a cable in concrete.. perhaps bury a conduit so you could pull a different cable should that be indicated.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on February 01, 2014, 02:07:13 pm
...the only logical conclusion is there's a meaningful degree of full-blown shielding happening that can only be accomplished by the proper shielding around the cable for its entire length, not just as far as the ethercons.

In further thinking about it, my next test was going to be shielded for some distance beyond the Ethercon, with a chunk of UTP in the middle of the cable. Can a static charge cover the entire length of a cable, looking for places to get in and cause problems?

I'll have some time this afternoon to do this, and will edit this post with the result.

Edit: OK, now we are getting somewhere.

I used the Quad Proplex, with one end connecting Ethernet cable #1 to the console and #2 to the S16's (two connected with a 1' chunk of single Proplex) sitting a couple feet away.

The other ends of both #1 and #2 connected to separate Ethercon connecting barrels, with a 1' chunk of UTP in between.

With the console and S16's showing sync, zapping the S16 had no effect.

Yreka! So a continuous shield is NOT necessary.

Because I have limited STP on hand (a few 1' and one 100'), I connected a couple of the 1's together with barrels on the S16 end, and connected that via UTP to the console.

Zapping the S16 immediately caused loss of sync.

Maybe there's a reasonable length of STP that can be on each end of a UTP snake to keep the static from bleeding into the devices? That would let me use my expensive and flexible UTP.

Advice: if you don't already have expensive or difficult-to-replace UTP, just get the STP. But I am not in that position. Since I spend a lot of time on minutia anyway, when the various chunks of STP that are on their way to me arrive, I'll continue to pursue this. Or if someone has a couple of 35' chunks of STP and a couple of barrels and a snake-length chunk of UTP, you can try it first. A 35' max coil of STP on each end seems reasonable, IMHO, and means a 250' UTP could still be used. If it works.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jason Lucas on February 01, 2014, 05:43:48 pm
Just had two services without drop outs, we'll see how the rest of the weekend goes.

edit:

Had 1 drop out during the whole weekend and it was before service started. So again, while they're not nearly as frequent as the first X32 we tried, they are still happening. Going to try a shielded cable soon and add ethercons.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on February 04, 2014, 01:26:32 am

Edit: OK, now we are getting somewhere.

I used the Quad Proplex, with one end connecting Ethernet cable #1 to the console and #2 to the S16's (two connected with a 1' chunk of single Proplex) sitting a couple feet away.

The other ends of both #1 and #2 connected to separate Ethercon connecting barrels, with a 1' chunk of UTP in between.

With the console and S16's showing sync, zapping the S16 had no effect.

Yreka! So a continuous shield is NOT necessary.
SNIP
Maybe there's a reasonable length of STP that can be on each end of a UTP snake to keep the static from bleeding into the devices?


Today I tried a 100' STP on the S16 end, connected to a 100' UTP thence connected to the console.

Although it initially resists the sparks, enough sparking makes it lose sync, and any sparking soon after that results in immediate sync loss.

That makes me want to throw in the towel on this.

STP with Ethercons is the way to go.

If only Behringer had announced that at the beginning instead of six or nine months later....

 :'(
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on February 04, 2014, 10:35:28 am
Today I tried a 100' STP on the S16 end, connected to a 100' UTP thence connected to the console.

Although it initially resists the sparks, enough sparking makes it lose sync, and any sparking soon after that results in immediate sync loss.

That makes me want to throw in the towel on this.

STP with Ethercons is the way to go.

If only Behringer had announced that at the beginning instead of six or nine months later....

 :'(

 +1
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Aaron Nickerson on February 04, 2014, 05:12:30 pm
Thank you to everyone who has contributed knowledge to this thread.  Please forgive if this is an ignorant question.

I am considering purchasing an x32 and 2 s16s. They will be installed in a room with cat5 cable permanently installed.  The issue I have is that I do not know if they are UTP or STP, as it was installed before my tenure.  Originally the system was designed for an avid profile system.  Our needs in that room have changed drastically, and we are looking to downgrade to a smaller, simpler system, something our high school volunteers can handle more easily. 

My question is how can I tell if I have UTP or STP cat5.  The cable runs to wall mounted brackets.  There are ethercon connectors on the receptacles.  Is there a better solution than ordering the system and crossing my fingers?  Any information is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on February 04, 2014, 05:24:22 pm
My question is how can I tell if I have UTP or STP cat5.  The cable runs to wall mounted brackets.  There are ethercon connectors on the receptacles.  Is there a better solution than ordering the system and crossing my fingers?  Any information is greatly appreciated.

Pull one of the jack plates off and look for a shield connection.  It'll be the only bare wire you can see.  You should also be able to see some of the cable to look for UTP or STP or a model number printed on the jacket.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on February 04, 2014, 06:32:33 pm
Thank you to everyone who has contributed knowledge to this thread.  Please forgive if this is an ignorant question.

I am considering purchasing an x32 and 2 s16s. They will be installed in a room with cat5 cable permanently installed.  The issue I have is that I do not know if they are UTP or STP, as it was installed before my tenure.  Originally the system was designed for an avid profile system.  Our needs in that room have changed drastically, and we are looking to downgrade to a smaller, simpler system, something our high school volunteers can handle more easily. 

My question is how can I tell if I have UTP or STP cat5.  The cable runs to wall mounted brackets.  There are ethercon connectors on the receptacles.  Is there a better solution than ordering the system and crossing my fingers?  Any information is greatly appreciated.

The question I have is if it is installed in metal conduit would you get the same performance if you were to tie the ethercon jack to the conduit on each end and then just use Shielded twisted pair wire from these jacks to your devices?

If it isn’t either in metal conduit or tying the shield to the conduit is a no go then it sounds like you are taking a gamble. If it is in conduit see if the church (I am assuming that this is a church) has an electrician and talk to them about how hard it would be to pull a new piece of STP cat cable thru. If its not in conduit you might want to look into how hard it would be to run the recommended cable in place or in addition to what it already there.   
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Penkala on February 04, 2014, 06:58:17 pm
I'm still looking for a decent pliable shielded cable that's readily available and not more than $1/ft.  I contacted TMB about ProPlex but they refuse to sell to end users and I refuse to jump through hoops just to buy a cable.  Also, according to Dan M. the ProPlex isn't very flexible.

I currently have a Rapco / ProCo cable from MF that uses Belden 1533R.  It's stiff and holds its shape worse than a pipe cleaner.

I also picked up a cable off of Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002L7M4ZY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) that appears to be made by Wavenet (http://www.wavenet.net/products_files/Cat5E%20Shielded%20Outdoor%20spec.pdf).  It's definitely better than the Belden 1533R but nowhere near the Gepco CT504HDX UTP cable.  I'm probably going to stick with that until something better comes along.  I haven't experienced the same issues that Dan M. did with dropouts due to pinching but I'm not as confident in this Wavenet cable's ability to support the pair spacing to prevent it.

*edit: I misread Dan's post initially.  I went ahead and purchased some TMB ProPlex and I'm happy with it.  It's very flexible.

Corey,
          The Belden 1533R STP cable is very good cable but pretty stiff as you note. Alone, the 1533R cable is tough to use. FWIW, I made a snake with 3 channels of 1533R and 2 channels of Belden 1696A 110ohm AES/EBU cable. The combination of the two types of cables makes the snake flexible enough for mobile use.

JP
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Chris Clark on February 05, 2014, 12:38:22 am
Thank you to everyone who has contributed knowledge to this thread.  Please forgive if this is an ignorant question.

I am considering purchasing an x32 and 2 s16s. They will be installed in a room with cat5 cable permanently installed.  The issue I have is that I do not know if they are UTP or STP, as it was installed before my tenure.  Originally the system was designed for an avid profile system.  Our needs in that room have changed drastically, and we are looking to downgrade to a smaller, simpler system, something our high school volunteers can handle more easily. 

My question is how can I tell if I have UTP or STP cat5.  The cable runs to wall mounted brackets.  There are ethercon connectors on the receptacles.  Is there a better solution than ordering the system and crossing my fingers?  Any information is greatly appreciated.

(http://www.lanshack.com/images/cat6a/utp-stpcable.jpg)
Here's a comparison of the two. UTP there will be no foil shield and the only extra thing you might have besides the twisted pairs might be a "rip cord" used to break the outer jacket down (I don't know the technical term). STP will have a foil shield and drain wire that is used to connect to the metal casing of the STP ends.

I would hazard a guess it is UTP, STP is rarely specified for install unless a specific need is called for, such as this instance where you have almost unequivocal real-world use AND specification by the manufacturer.  Best bet is to pull the plate off as Corey mentioned to check the wire itself. If it is not STP I would strongly recommend repulling the wire with STP. If it is in conduit this should be fairly painless, even if it is not in conduit I can think of very few reasons why the cable should've been stabled to structure at any point in the run so you should still be able to pull new STP in while pulling the old UTP out.


The question I have is if it is installed in metal conduit would you get the same performance if you were to tie the ethercon jack to the conduit on each end and then just use Shielded twisted pair wire from these jacks to your devices?
Based on the numerous results we've gotten from great testers like Dan and others, I would guess even using EMT end to end would not provide the same performance as true STP, and personally I would not recommend attempting it unless you want to go back later and still pull STP through it. I'm thinking the STP benefit has something to do with the proximity of the shield to the transmitting pairs, additionally, EMT is not usually a perfect connection end-to-end, threaded rigid might have a better chance but still unlikely.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on February 05, 2014, 12:45:40 am
Is all of the STP stuff foil shield only or is there any braided or wrapped shield stuff available?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on February 05, 2014, 12:54:27 am
Is all of the STP stuff foil shield only or is there and braided or wrapped shield stuff available?

Yes, there are other shield types.  The TMB ProPlex has a braided shield.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Joe Sanborn on February 11, 2014, 05:09:45 pm
Dear Guys,

We are in the process of developing a specific Ethercon cable for our digital consoles made for us by Neutrik. It will be built to the proper specification and also be quite affordable.  We will follow up when the cable is available via our distributors.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Senior Manager, Marketing Communications
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: James A. Griffin on February 11, 2014, 05:13:51 pm
We are in the process of developing a specific Ethercon cable for our digital consoles made for us by Neutrik. It will be built to the proper specification and also be quite affordable.  We will follow up when the cable is available via our distributors.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Senior Manager, Marketing Communications
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

Thanks, Joe!
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Pyle on February 11, 2014, 06:05:28 pm
Dear Guys,

We are in the process of developing a specific Ethercon cable for our digital consoles made for us by Neutrik. It will be built to the proper specification and also be quite affordable.  We will follow up when the cable is available via our distributors.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Senior Manager, Marketing Communications
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

Will it have a reinforced jacket?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim Padrick on February 12, 2014, 12:11:07 am
Sorry if this has been mentioned: There are EtherCons that can be installed on pre-terminated cables.
Title: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on February 12, 2014, 01:04:17 am
Sorry if this has been mentioned: There are EtherCons that can be installed on pre-terminated cables.

As a quick reference for anyone looking:

Ethercon connectors for pre-terminated cables are
NE8MC (silver) and
NE8MC-B (black)

Ethercon connectors for yet-to-be-terminated cables are
NE8MC-1 (silver) and
NE8MC-B-1 (black)

The only difference is the boot.  One is 2 piece for fitting over the RJ45 connector, the other is very similar to an XLR boot and slides on before attaching the RJ45.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Ng on February 17, 2014, 03:11:13 am
Thought I'd give an update to my experience. We rolled our own cables, using STP CAT-5e, shielded RJ45 connectors and Ethercon connectors (i.e. continuity between the two metal ethercon shells). Although it hasn't been as dry as of late, I've still shocked the board once in a while and we haven't had any dropouts in a few weeks. Something interesting to note is we use 2-S16s, and we've only used a shielded Ethercon setup from the X-32 to the first S-16. The S-16 to S-16 connection still uses a non-ethercon cable that doesn't use a shielded RJ-45 connector.

At the same time we also eliminated another variable, which is people/chairs stepping on the cable (our cable is a permanent installation, we re-routed it to avoid any problems). But I think the ethercon is the major contributing factor.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on February 20, 2014, 12:41:31 pm
Hi All,

As reported earlier ITT, a friend of mine got (for his work at a major theater here) a new Midas Pro3, and it came with a couple of 100meter reels of rugged Cat6 (I think, might be CAT5e) STP with Ethercons. He needed to put the CAT for his console in conduit from mix position to stage, so instead of chopping off an end of his cables, he got some raw cable, ran it through the conduit, and terminated it. All was well, and he kept the reels of terminated cable for future use.

I have a multi-stage festival coming up and have not yet found a permanent STP solution for the systems (all X32's), so he was going to let me borrow the reels of STP to cover two of the stages, and brought them by. When I connected one to an S16 and X32 and shocked the S16 with a modified BBQ sparker, it completely and immediately lost sync!

Looking closer at the cable, it clearly says "UTP" on it, not STP.

He hadn't looked closely at it (or even opened the boxes), and was shocked to learn that he'd gotten the wrong cable.

He called Midas Service, and, long story short, they didn't reply to him for several weeks, but finally did so yesterday.

Actually, he said two guys separately called him, Frank and Kyle, and each told him the same thing: although some early versions of the XL8 had a problem with UTP, Midas went into them and fixed what was lacking, so that they and all other Midas consoles now work just fine with UTP. All Midas consoles now ship with UTP when cable is provided.

This seems significantly different than what we've heard about X32's and the reasons for their need for STP. It now appears to me that there is something lacking in the X32 in their resistance to sparking, and the STP is a bandaid to fix that lack.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to renounce the X32, I still think it's a wonderful console, it would just be nice to get a straight story and understand why things are as they are. If there's a way to fix the S16 so that it works with UTP, that would be money well-spent IMO.

Dan

PS John Ng, that's good news that your problems were solved. Interesting that you only need to go STP to the first S16. I'll try that, shock it, and report back. I would have thought that shocking the second one would result in loss of sync, but this is a surprising phenomenon.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on February 20, 2014, 02:44:24 pm
If there's a way to fix the S16 so that it works with UTP, that would be money well-spent IMO.

Dan

Maybe just ponying up and buying STP correctly terminated would be money well-spent???

I have spent nearly $1000 on very good TMB Proplex Cat5 cables for my GLDs.  I wasn't going to skimp on quality.  It was well worth the investment!  Why is it that so many of the X32 owners are hoping for miracles rather than just getting the correct cable?

If people were willing to spend $500 on a snake for their $2000 analog consoles then surely they should be willing to spend $500 on a snake for their $2000 digital consoles???
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on February 20, 2014, 06:12:19 pm
Maybe just ponying up and buying STP correctly terminated would be money well-spent???

I have spent nearly $1000 on very good TMB Proplex Cat5 cables for my GLDs.  I wasn't going to skimp on quality.  It was well worth the investment!  Why is it that so many of the X32 owners are hoping for miracles rather than just getting the correct cable?

If people were willing to spend $500 on a snake for their $2000 analog consoles then surely they should be willing to spend $500 on a snake for their $2000 digital consoles???

Dear Loudmusic,

My company has already spent well over $2000 buying the type of cable that Behringer initially recommended as being perfectly suited for use with the console and S16. I believe I have said that here before, or at least indicated it without attaching a monetary value.

What is hard to understand about
a) not wanting to spend that much or more on a new lot of cable?
b) there being an extremely limited selection of STP available, and that there is not one that exists that precisely meets my needs the way the UTP does (ease of handling, tri- or quad-Ethernet runs in one cable, heavy jacket, etc.)?
c) a correlary of b): I have some Proplex, and I don't like it. The quad is the worst handling cable I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with, and the single's jacket is nasty feeling. It does work, though.

Also, I think the jury is still out on what happens when a console and S16 are in a situation where there is a significant ground potential difference between the AC sources powering each, and they are then connected with STP. Yes, I know there are ways to avoid that, but there are also situations that could necessitate doing so. UTP would have no problem. What happens when you short the grounds together through the STP? I don't know.

Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Pyle on February 21, 2014, 12:01:23 pm
Maybe just ponying up and buying STP correctly terminated would be money well-spent???

I have spent nearly $1000 on very good TMB Proplex Cat5 cables for my GLDs.  I wasn't going to skimp on quality.  It was well worth the investment!  Why is it that so many of the X32 owners are hoping for miracles rather than just getting the correct cable?

If people were willing to spend $500 on a snake for their $2000 analog consoles then surely they should be willing to spend $500 on a snake for their $2000 digital consoles???

The Proplex is certainly a high quality product. Initially it was the only stranded core Cat5e recommended by A&H as a less expensive alternative to the OEM cable A&H sold for the iLives. Nevertheless, people still have the option to use solid core Duracat or other less expensive UTP Cat5e cables with the A&H mixers, and apparently they should work fine with the Midas Pro series as Dan indicates. Considering Behringer's price level in the digital console marketplace, I think it would make sense for them to fix the mixer so it can be used with relatively inexpensive solid core UTP.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on February 21, 2014, 04:46:12 pm
... Considering Behringer's price level in the digital console marketplace, I think it would make sense for them to fix the mixer so it can be used with relatively inexpensive solid core UTP.

And come out with a proper shielded ether con cable for around $1/foot
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Brian Wynn on February 21, 2014, 11:17:55 pm
Dear Guys,

We are in the process of developing a specific Ethercon cable for our digital consoles made for us by Neutrik. It will be built to the proper specification and also be quite affordable.  We will follow up when the cable is available via our distributors.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Senior Manager, Marketing Communications
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

They are working on it read quoted test from Joe
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Costello on February 23, 2014, 01:14:46 am
I found this thread, because I'm having a similar problem. I'm working on a musical with an X32 and 2 S16's (though only 1 S16 is actually being used) - 16 inputs @ FOH directly into the desk and 13 on stage into the S16. Monitor returns are also fed from the S16. Cabling is shielded Cat5e with ethercons (I don't know the brand of the cable).

I'm getting random pops -  typically 1-2 per show, but no dropouts. Previously, I'd been blaming it on either the wireless mics or other known electrical issues, but I've eliminated those and the problem still occurs. Once I started multitrack recording the shows, I've was able to narrow it down to the S16's. I switched all of my I/O from one S16 to the other and the problem didn't go away. There seems to be some consistency in when the problem happens, but not complete consistency. i.e. It'll sometimes happen in roughly the same spot for a couple shows in a row, then change.

I'm glad I found this thread, because now I can have the rental house just bring an analog snake and I can be done with it.

-Dan.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on February 23, 2014, 03:10:00 am
Hi All,

As reported earlier ITT, a friend of mine got (for his work at a major theater here) a new Midas Pro3, and it came with a couple of 100meter reels of rugged Cat6 (I think, might be CAT5e) STP with Ethercons. He needed to put the CAT for his console in conduit from mix position to stage, so instead of chopping off an end of his cables, he got some raw cable, ran it through the conduit, and terminated it. All was well, and he kept the reels of terminated cable for future use.....
SNIP

Hi All,

A version of the post above was also posted in the other forum, and as a result I've had a back-and-forth with Jan Duwe, from Behringer's Assistant Manager for Conceptual Engineering. I'll post it here FYI, since there are a lot of people who post here but not there, and to ask your advice. (Antoon is another poster who commented.)

From Jan:

Dear Dan and Antoon,

it is important not to mix up ESD and RFI artifacts. Your assumptions may make sense from an RFI perspective (where problems can be confined to specific components or parts of a device), but ESD is affecting products in a totally different way. From basic electric laws, you may consider that the impact of any given electric charge will be largely depending on the device's mass and its grounding impedance.

There is an obvious disparity of typical MIDAS mixing environments (XL8 or Pro Series consoles with large and heavy chassis plus I/O racks, solidly grounded) and smaller BEHRINGER (X32 + S16) setups. This is the reason why from a BEHRINGER perspective we recommend using screened and grounded cables, while UTP may confidently be used in the MIDAS world.

Please also consider that the MIDAS PRO Series consoles allow for dual-redundant AES50 connectivity, which in this context may help to further reduce the screen and grounding impedance and distribute the impact of any ESD. Other than that, there is no technical difference between an AES50 port on MIDAS and BEHRINGER products.

The good news for our customers is, that we have just placed a large order for a high quality, ruggedized Neutrik etherFLEX cable that will be provided by KlarkTeknik on a 50 m Schill drum. We will announce this officially at PLS, Frankfurt, in a couple of weeks from now.

Hope that helps.
Best,
Jan


I replied:

Thanks for the reply, Jan.

While I'm not immediately persuaded that the X32 is smaller and lighter than all Midas products, and that that will make the difference between ESD problems and ESD no problems, I don't know them as well as you do and so will take what you say at face value. I guess the stage boxes are certainly smaller, S16 vs. whatever.

As was pointed out in another forum this morning, given the price point of the X32 family it would be much better if it were able to operate with cable that is cheaper and more importantly, more commonly available rather than a cable that you, Behringer, have to have made yourself to be sure to get the right one.

I'm happy to hear more specifics about the upcoming cable, though. Is it only available in 50 meter lengths, on a drum, and in single runs?

I have no use for drums, as I tape my snake cable together with an analog 4 or more pair, as well as the AC supply to FOH so that one pull gets it all. I also want to run multiple Ethercon runs to FOH, both as a backup and also because there are situations that need more than one Ethercon run.

Thanks again,
Dan

Edit: And if you're saying that mass is the only factor, why did the XL8 initially have problems and then not have problems? Its mass didn't change.

If more mass is better, why can't I just attach a chunk of aluminum to the bottom of an S16 chassis and have an immediate solution? Or enough S16's racked together to create an object the size of the Midas stage box?

The Pro 1 weighs 47.5 pounds, and the X32 is 45.4 pounds. Not much mass difference there, but one is OK with UTP and the other requires STP.

Sorry, need more explanation.


And Jan replied:

Dear Dan,
don't get me wrong, I am not inclined persuading you of anything, and I do have a lot of respect for your inquisitiveness. I can only contribute our considerations since we are observing the phenomena. When a lightning strikes your house there may be some technical precautions you could take, even though you will never know precisely what will be happening. Personally, if I can, I would try to shunt out the discharge outside the house with the lowest possible impedance to ground, rather than opening all windows. There is no True or False, but rather a fairly low or a very low risk of interference. And I'd apply the same, even if it was a Midas console.

You can find specifications about Neutrik etherFLEX cable here and here. We will start with 50 m drums, and the cable can be completely unspooled and used independently from the drum. Extension to 100 m is easy using Neutrik's NE8FF coupler, or using the KT DN9610 Extender box, when you need to use more than 100 m. And yes, we will keep it affordable.

Btw,
we are just now celebrating our 25th anniversary taking place in the Music Group factory in China, with invitees coming from all over the world. Our partners, distributors, press people, specialists and colleagues are gathering here for four unforgettable days. And I am personally very grateful and have to bring out a big THANK YOU TO ULI, for making this an extremely memorable experience. Stay tuned to our websites for some footage of the event that will be up, soon.

Best,
Jan


My request to you, and particularly to those who know more than me about how electricity/static/RFI/ESD works:

1) Does the mass of the object really make any difference? He didn't reply to my comment about the Pro1 and X32 being about the same size.

2) Is the Pin1 phenomenon at all relevant here?

As you'll recall, Neil Muncy showed that using a circuit board trace to conduct induced voltage on the shield to ground resulted in hums and buzzes, because the circuit trace didn't have enough mass (maybe this was what Jan was talking about?) to get large voltages to ground quickly, and instead acted like a resistor, whereas an actual wire was enough to immediately route that voltage to ground.

Fixing that, which was trivial in the design process, solved a lot of hum problems for us.

I am able to easily imagine something similar in a budget digital product, which results in the need for the band-aid of STP. Does this make any sense?

3) Could he be saying that the grounding impedance of the Midas is low, and that of the X32 is high? ("From basic electric laws, you may consider that the impact of any given electric charge will be largely depending on the device's mass and its grounding impedance." The Midas console and the X32 have virtually the same mass, so is the grounding impedance the difference that requires one to use STP while the other is fine with UTP?)

Oh, and I see that the links didn't come through to the new Behringer cable. They are: 

http://www.neutrik.co.uk/en-uk/data/etherflex/cable-assembly-drum-spooled

http://www.contrik.ch/zoolu-website/media/download/10107/ZNK+CT2672601

Regarding that cable, the second link  is a spec sheet for the cable, which includes a cross-section.

Given that there is NO padding/isolation inside the cable between pairs, I'll be very interested to see if any early adopters have problems with loss of sync due to pinching/pulling/stomping on the cable, like I had a year ago and which prompted me to put together a workshop to look at the phenomenon. In it we found that almost every cable could be made to lose sync by pinching/pulling/stomping, EXCEPT one which was very well internally isolated. We didn't test any STP, though.

Sorry for the length of this, but I feel like we are getting somewhere, or starting to move at least.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on February 23, 2014, 03:13:38 am
I found this thread, because I'm having a similar problem. I'm working on a musical with an X32 and 2 S16's (though only 1 S16 is actually being used) - 16 inputs @ FOH directly into the desk and 13 on stage into the S16. Monitor returns are also fed from the S16. Cabling is shielded Cat5e with ethercons (I don't know the brand of the cable).

I'm getting random pops -  typically 1-2 per show, but no dropouts. Previously, I'd been blaming it on either the wireless mics or other known electrical issues, but I've eliminated those and the problem still occurs. Once I started multitrack recording the shows, I've was able to narrow it down to the S16's. I switched all of my I/O from one S16 to the other and the problem didn't go away. There seems to be some consistency in when the problem happens, but not complete consistency. i.e. It'll sometimes happen in roughly the same spot for a couple shows in a row, then change.

I'm glad I found this thread, because now I can have the rental house just bring an analog snake and I can be done with it.

-Dan.

Hi Dan,

Weird problems, not quite the same as what's been reported.

It'll be good for you to go to an analog snake and see if the problem persists. It almost sounds like someone hitting a mic with a bow or something, but I presume you've ruled that out, too.

Please come back and report if the analog snake fixed it.

Thanks,
Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Costello on February 23, 2014, 09:20:52 am
Hi Dan,

Weird problems, not quite the same as what's been reported.

It'll be good for you to go to an analog snake and see if the problem persists. It almost sounds like someone hitting a mic with a bow or something, but I presume you've ruled that out, too.

Yeah, it's not that. They'd have to throw the mic on the ground to get this kind of impact - but more significantly, it's happening across multiple inputs including some which are DI'd.

Quote
Please come back and report if the analog snake fixed it.

Will do.

-Dan.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mark McFarlane on February 23, 2014, 09:32:43 am
... It almost sounds like someone hitting a mic with a bow or something, but I presume you've ruled that out, too.
[size=78%]....[/size]
Thanks,
Dan


I had the bow-on-mic problem happen to me a few years ago with a very aggressive jazz bassist who used a bow. Every time it happened a dozen people would turn around and glare at me.  I had a chat with the bassist during the break, problem fixed... 


Yet another of a thousand rare learning experiences in this business.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Jani Koivisto on March 30, 2014, 04:17:27 pm
Hi all,

From what i've read, could the whole ethercon/STP thing be just that it grounds the connection board with the chassis.
It came to mind cause using just STP cable doesn't work, and electrically using UTP with ethercons doesn't actually make a difference, and if grounding the two with wire doesn't help it would sound reasonable.

The reason you need both is that the stp ethernet cable connects to the ethernet (or RJ45) ground, and the ethercon chassis ground (probably) to ground chassis? (ethercon chassis and stp ground are connected on the connector as far as i know)

Sorry if this has already been tried, don't have my own x32 just building infrastructure cabling.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 30, 2014, 04:49:21 pm
Hi all,

From what i've read, could the whole ethercon/STP thing be just that it grounds the connection board with the chassis.
It came to mind cause using just STP cable doesn't work, and electrically using UTP with ethercons doesn't actually make a difference, and if grounding the two with wire doesn't help it would sound reasonable.

The reason you need both is that the stp ethernet cable connects to the ethernet (or RJ45) ground, and the ethercon chassis ground (probably) to ground chassis? (ethercon chassis and stp ground are connected on the connector as far as i know)

Sorry if this has already been tried, don't have my own x32 just building infrastructure cabling.

Additional external grounding has been tried, and failed.  You MUST use STP, and the drain wire must have continuity to the Ethercon shell.

Perhaps that reality will change with some future design upgrade or modification, but for right now the STP/Ethercon is what works.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on March 30, 2014, 08:05:01 pm
Additional external grounding has been tried, and failed.  You MUST use STP, and the drain wire must have continuity to the Ethercon shell.

Perhaps that reality will change with some future design upgrade or modification, but for right now the STP/Ethercon is what works.

Tim is right, and thanks to Jani for reviving this thread.

Looking higher up the page reminds me that the Midas vs Behringer UTP vs. STP discussion took place here, too, and I posted further news in the Mega-thread about this just last week.

The short version is that I took my sparker to my friend's Pro 3 console, and he temporarily changed his STP to UTP and we zapped it. Signal WAS disrupted by the spark with UTP, and was not disrupted if only STP was used (both with Ethercons --- the Pro3 has two CAT runs; if UTP was in the picture either as primary or backup, there was disruption).

Also, I'm still curious about Dan Costello's situation, and just now sent him a PM in hope he will report back on the cause of his problem with random pops, since it's more than a month and you'd think he knows more about it than he did then.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Scott Tranchitella on March 30, 2014, 08:40:15 pm
I don't know why so many people bitch and complain about the x32 and Behringer like its a bad word. Behringer like everyone else has made a few mistakes but to act like everyone else is perfect is a joke. I would use my x32 in a billion dollar company event. I would also never call my x32 a toy. That makes me laugh. What the hell are you using that's not a toy? An x32 can easily do almost everything your "professional" board can do. Don't like the x32? Don't cry about it, just move on. That's just more x32's for us. Never had yours presonus, yamaha, or soundcraft give you issues? I call bs. A professional sound engineer can make almost anything work.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 30, 2014, 09:09:52 pm
I don't know why so many people bitch and complain about the x32 and Behringer like its a bad word. Behringer like everyone else has made a few mistakes but to act like everyone else is perfect is a joke. I would use my x32 in a billion dollar company event. I would also never call my x32 a toy. That makes me laugh. What the hell are you using that's not a toy? An x32 can easily do almost everything your "professional" board can do. Don't like the x32? Don't cry about it, just move on. That's just more x32's for us. Never had yours presonus, yamaha, or soundcraft give you issues? I call bs. A professional sound engineer can make almost anything work.

Welcome to the Forums. 

Please enlighten us poor sound folk regarding what loudspeaker system you'd recommend to go with the X32 for "billion dollar" corporate events.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 30, 2014, 09:24:00 pm
I don't know why so many people bitch and complain about the x32 and Behringer like its a bad word. Behringer like everyone else has made a few mistakes but to act like everyone else is perfect is a joke. I would use my x32 in a billion dollar company event. I would also never call my x32 a toy. That makes me laugh. What the hell are you using that's not a toy? An x32 can easily do almost everything your "professional" board can do. Don't like the x32? Don't cry about it, just move on. That's just more x32's for us. Never had yours presonus, yamaha, or soundcraft give you issues? I call bs. A professional sound engineer can make almost anything work.

No, we're dealing with a very specific, repeatable and confirmed by Behringer issue.  On the firmware side there are discussions about mute group behavior, post-fader direct outputs (or lack of) and some other things.

I have a multi-thousand $ corporate gig for which the basic functionality of the X32 & accessories would fit well, but until I'm sure it's ready for prime time, I'll be using a different desk for that gig.  That's just the commercial reality of the market I work in.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread call the X32 a toy, and there has been surprisingly little X32 bashing here at PSW or over at SFN, where the X32 Discussion thread has >9,250 replies and >1,100,000 views.  Lots of initial skepticism, some "that's too good to be true", and some real problems that came with launching a new product that were dealt with.  I'm not sure why you think anyone is calling the X32 a toy.

There are some clear distinctions between the X32 and mixers that cost 10X or more.  The X32's price point significantly closed the gap between them, though.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Matt Tilson on April 01, 2014, 12:46:57 pm
Also, I think the jury is still out on what happens when a console and S16 are in a situation where there is a significant ground potential difference between the AC sources powering each, and they are then connected with STP.

Has anyone been able to look into this?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Matt Tilson on April 03, 2014, 03:35:26 am
Also, can anyone tell me if the ADAT outs from the S16 are interrupted?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 03, 2014, 11:23:16 am
Also, can anyone tell me if the ADAT outs from the S16 are interrupted?

Yes, as the units mute while it re-syncs.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Matt Tilson on April 07, 2014, 07:48:46 am
Yes, as the units mute while it re-syncs.

Ah, well. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 02:39:28 pm
Possibly a stupid question but here goes. We've been using all STP with Ethercon from stage to FOH and no problems so far. the two S16s are in a rack together and just a standard cat5e patch cable between the two. My question is STP with ethercons needed like that? I assume since they are both racked together it is not needed. In other words the Rack rails and the units being on top of the other would ground it just like (or better than) the Shield and the Ethercon would, is that correct? or do I need STP there as well. If so it it possible to buy a pre-made 1 feet STP cat5 with ethercons. I know I can make it but I don't really want to buy way more than I need. Haven't had problems yet..
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Corey Scogin on April 17, 2014, 03:09:24 pm
Possibly a stupid question but here goes. We've been using all STP with Ethercon from stage to FOH and no problems so far. the two S16s are in a rack together and just a standard cat5e patch cable between the two. My question is STP with ethercons needed like that? I assume since they are both racked together it is not needed. In other words the Rack rails and the units being on top of the other would ground it just like (or better than) the Shield and the Ethercon would, is that correct? or do I need STP there as well. If so it it possible to buy a pre-made 1 feet STP cat5 with ethercons. I know I can make it but I don't really want to buy way more than I need. Haven't had problems yet..

I think I tested that scenario with a spark generator and the unit connected with the UTP jumper dropped out.  I know that I was able to make one unit in the same rack drop out when just the other was connected via Ethercon/STP.  I just don't know whether one was jumpered to the other or whether they were each connected directly to the X32.

I'd recommend using Ethercons/STP on both connections.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on April 17, 2014, 09:23:35 pm
I think I tested that scenario with a spark generator and the unit connected with the UTP jumper dropped out.  I know that I was able to make one unit in the same rack drop out when just the other was connected via Ethercon/STP.  I just don't know whether one was jumpered to the other or whether they were each connected directly to the X32.

I'd recommend using Ethercons/STP on both connections.

This seems likely to me, too.

I've been making short STP/Ethercon jumpers with Monoprice molded STP cables, and clipping off the molded stuff (usually comes off easy) and adding Ethercons. It's super easy, cheap, and seems to work just fine. Zapping the devices results in no dropouts, anyway.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 09:31:43 pm
This seems likely to me, too.

I've been making short STP/Ethercon jumpers with Monoprice molded STP cables, and clipping off the molded stuff (usually comes off easy) and adding Ethercons. It's super easy, cheap, and seems to work just fine. Zapping the devices results in no dropouts, anyway.

Are you re-crimping them or will the Ethercon just fit over the RJ45 once the boot/strain relief is removed? seems like this is the most cost effective way.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dave Bednarski on April 17, 2014, 09:55:44 pm
Sigh.  After 14 months of zero issues with my CBI cable + X32... its starting to pop. 

Specifically using, http://www.cbicables.com/products/ultimate_cat_e.aspx with no complaints until now. 

Def the cable... I can induce it by giving it kinda a giggle/wiggle when its laying flat.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: jasonfinnigan on April 17, 2014, 10:02:59 pm
Sigh.  After 14 months of zero issues with my CBI cable + X32... its starting to pop. 

Specifically using, http://www.cbicables.com/products/ultimate_cat_e.aspx with no complaints. 

Def the cable... I can induce it by giving it kinda a giggle/wiggle when its laying flat.

I remember watching an AES forum meeting on this. That the shielded cables for the most part performed worse in their tests, that people walking on it, jumping on etc would cause drop outs. They only had one cable pass, don't remember which but it was a UTP.

http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2013/jun_cat5/
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on April 18, 2014, 03:31:50 am
Are you re-crimping them or will the Ethercon just fit over the RJ45 once the boot/strain relief is removed? seems like this is the most cost effective way.

Ethercon fits over RJ45's nicely. There are some fiddly little pieces in there that need to be set correctly, but it's simple. Google Ethercon assembly instructions and you'll figure it out.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on April 18, 2014, 03:38:33 am
I remember watching an AES forum meeting on this. That the shielded cables for the most part performed worse in their tests, that people walking on it, jumping on etc would cause drop outs. They only had one cable pass, don't remember which but it was a UTP.

http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2013/jun_cat5/

I watched that, too  ;), and what you described isn't quite what happened. We didn't really differentiate between shielded and unshielded, and we could make all of them drop out except one which happened to be UTP. We weren't testing at all for ESD, which turns out to be the reason you have to use STP with Ethercons.

That UTP one had a monster internal longitudinal separator which kept the pairs from rubbing up against each other and kept them in the exact same orientation relative to each other. It was way thicker than the others, which made it more difficult to jam it physically using our hands. I have no doubt that an STP with a similar internal separator and a rugged jacket (along with multiple cable runs inside an overall jacket) would be the ultimate cable for us, but such a thing doesn't seem to exist.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Lalo Williams on June 03, 2014, 05:57:58 pm
Good evening everyone

Recently, at our School of Music, we aquired a X32 with 2xS16, and right after that, came to notice this thread where you guys discuss extensively the issue with the cabling.

Just wanna make sure what you think of the cable we´re getting for our setup...:

http://www.neutrik.com/en/ethercon/ethercon-cat6-cable/

Getting it in lenght of 100ft x 3, and 30ft x 2 (we will rarely be using more than 300ft at a time, but just in case), with the posibility of joining them by this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/888361-REG/Neutrik_ne8ff_ADAPTER_EHTERCON_CAT5.html

According to everything I´ve read here, these should work fine... right?

thanks in advance for your help.


cheers.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 03, 2014, 06:56:40 pm
Good evening everyone

Recently, at our School of Music, we aquired a X32 with 2xS16, and right after that, came to notice this thread where you guys discuss extensively the issue with the cabling.

Just wanna make sure what you think of the cable we´re getting for our setup...:

http://www.neutrik.com/en/ethercon/ethercon-cat6-cable/

Getting it in lenght of 100ft x 3, and 30ft x 2 (we will rarely be using more than 300ft at a time, but just in case), with the posibility of joining them by this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/888361-REG/Neutrik_ne8ff_ADAPTER_EHTERCON_CAT5.html

According to everything I´ve read here, these should work fine... right?

thanks in advance for your help.


cheers.

The successful use of multiple couplers has not been documented.  As a school of music, how often do you need a 300' snake?  If you really need one, then using couplers introduces additional points of failure when you really need all 300'.  I personally purchased 150' and 250' to use with my S16/X32.

As to the suitability of the Neutrik cable product, you'll have to ask Behringer.  My best guess is that it will work - it has the required shielding with termination to the Ethercon shell.  Note that the same type of cable will be needed to connect the two S16 together should you use only AES50"A" or AES50"B" to connect to the console.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Rob Spence on June 03, 2014, 08:14:41 pm
Dear Loudmusic,

What is hard to understand about
a) not wanting to spend that much or more on a new lot of cable?
b) there being an extremely limited selection of STP available, and that there is not one that exists that precisely meets my needs the way the UTP does (ease of handling, tri- or quad-Ethernet runs in one cable, heavy jacket, etc.)?
c) a correlary of b): I have some Proplex, and I don't like it. The quad is the worst handling cable I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with, and the single's jacket is nasty feeling. It does work, though.

Dan

I use Proplex UTP with my GLD. At first it was both stiff and nasty jacket. After a few dozen uses it has loosened up and the jacket feels fine now. I would buy more.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Lalo Williams on June 03, 2014, 11:07:59 pm
The successful use of multiple couplers has not been documented.  As a school of music, how often do you need a 300' snake?  If you really need one, then using couplers introduces additional points of failure when you really need all 300'.  I personally purchased 150' and 250' to use with my S16/X32.

As to the suitability of the Neutrik cable product, you'll have to ask Behringer.  My best guess is that it will work - it has the required shielding with termination to the Ethercon shell.  Note that the same type of cable will be needed to connect the two S16 together should you use only AES50"A" or AES50"B" to connect to the console.


Hi Tim

Regarding the Neutrik cable, I too think it will work, as it has the tested features. As for the lenght... to be honest, I too don't think we'll be ever using 100mts of cable length... but thought it would be best to get it all together, so now we'll have spares, he.

And maybe I can document the success or failure in using the couplers...


thanks for your answer.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Moore on June 04, 2014, 12:59:23 am
We have used the couplers to connect 100 and 150 section of Duracat to the x32/S16's, no issues.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Pyle on June 04, 2014, 11:37:24 am
We have used the couplers to connect 100 and 150 section of Duracat to the x32/S16's, no issues.

Yet according to all the research done the unshielded Duracat would not be a reliable cable to choose for the X32 system.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim Weaver on June 07, 2014, 01:22:40 am
So here's something for ya.

My first show with a new digi snake connecting an S16 plus X32r (snake head) to my X32 at foh. 250 foot snake with 3 Cat5e STP (with ethercons) runs plus a 12/3 in it.

I'm not sure if this is an ESD issue or someone stepping on it/physical issue. Had no problems at soundcheck.

http://youtu.be/u3m9D3TUmY0

So its the next night and I'm at a club with the same setup. I'm running house music after doors open and it happens 2-3 more times. I decide to abandon the foh desk and mix off the rack and a tablet. (It is my backup mixer)

I go to load the show and get it running and it won't accept signal from the s16. I had to reboot both before it would work. Any thoughts?


Clumsily tapped out by fat fingers on a tiny keyboard, probably on the move.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 07, 2014, 01:51:59 am
I have no dog in this fight but continue to read the thread. Does anyone care that "B" hasn't provided a proven cure for this problem yet. It seems like people are happy to jump onto a bandwagon knowing full well there are problems with these stage boxes that seems to have no cure. Like I said, no dog in the fight, but can someone explain why people continue to buy the stage box expecting problems in the first place?
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 07, 2014, 02:57:58 am
I have no dog in this fight but continue to read the thread. Does anyone care that "B" hasn't provided a proven cure for this problem yet. It seems like people are happy to jump onto a bandwagon knowing full well there are problems with these stage boxes that seems to have no cure. Like I said, no dog in the fight, but can someone explain why people continue to buy the stage box expecting problems in the first place?

I've had zero problems with my S16/X32 combo using the ProCo STP product recommended by Joe Sanborn.  Eight months of error-free service.  I don't know if I have a mega-balance at the Karma Bank or I've just been lucky, but no drop outs, no loss of sync sounds.  Ever.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 07, 2014, 08:50:52 am
I'm glad that's the case Tim, but with all of the stage box problems I continue to read about I've begun to shake my head in wonders of why.

To me the brand is not relevant I just wondered why people are putting their money into a product with a known, but still unresolved problem. Or perhaps it is resolved and people aren't doing as they have been told. This could be the case as I really don't follow the product closely.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Pyle on June 07, 2014, 11:57:32 am
My first show with a new digi snake connecting an S16 plus X32r (snake head) to my X32 at foh. 250 foot snake with 3 Cat5e STP (with ethercons) runs plus a 12/3 in it.

I'm not sure if this is an ESD issue or someone stepping on it/physical issue. Had no problems at soundcheck.

http://youtu.be/u3m9D3TUmY0

So its the next night and I'm at a club with the same setup. I'm running house music after doors open and it happens 2-3 more times. I decide to abandon the foh desk and mix off the rack and a tablet. (It is my backup mixer)

I go to load the show and get it running and it won't accept signal from the s16. I had to reboot both before it would work. Any thoughts?

What brand of cable are you using?

Before the Proplex cables became a defacto standard for the X32 systems I recommended them to iLive users that wanted a stranded core cat5e. I'm not an Ethernet tech expert but know that after some testing by Allen & Heath the Proplex and their own very expensive cable which I believe was oem'ed by Neutrik were the only stranded products they approved for lengths beyond the standard 30m for stranded cat5 patch cable. This was not related to shielding, as an unshielded solid core 100m Duracat will work just fine with the iLive system.

I've ordered a sample of stranded Duraflex to try out with the X32/S16, but would want to test any untried product well before putting it to work.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 07, 2014, 12:17:33 pm
I'm glad that's the case Tim, but with all of the stage box problems I continue to read about I've begun to shake my head in wonders of why.

To me the brand is not relevant I just wondered why people are putting their money into a product with a known, but still unresolved problem. Or perhaps it is resolved and people aren't doing as they have been told. This could be the case as I really don't follow the product closely.

I'm not aware of how many S16 have been sold but the X32 in its various forms have supposedly hit 100k units.  If Berry has sold 30k S16, we're hearing remarkably few new complaints.  It will be interesting to see if Mr. Weaver's problem is ESD or something else.  Frankly the "something else" is more worrisome to me than ESD, as I believe the STP/Ethercon is a reasonable answer to what is likely a design issue that can't/won't be corrected until the product cycle turns another 360°.  At any rate, I use the X32 where it's appropriate (it's my personal desk) and take the AVID or Yamaha desks the other 90%+ of the times.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 07, 2014, 01:33:44 pm
I still say it's a ground issue between a daughter board or separated circuit and the main circuit board. I would have a field day with about 12hrs inside one of those boards. Before I bought my Expression I emailed the B powers that be and asked for a demo. Guess what I got out of that request.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on June 09, 2014, 12:42:31 am
So here's something for ya.

My first show with a new digi snake connecting an S16 plus X32r (snake head) to my X32 at foh. 250 foot snake with 3 Cat5e STP (with ethercons) runs plus a 12/3 in it.

I'm not sure if this is an ESD issue or someone stepping on it/physical issue. Had no problems at soundcheck.

http://youtu.be/u3m9D3TUmY0

So its the next night and I'm at a club with the same setup. I'm running house music after doors open and it happens 2-3 more times. I decide to abandon the foh desk and mix off the rack and a tablet. (It is my backup mixer)

I go to load the show and get it running and it won't accept signal from the s16. I had to reboot both before it would work. Any thoughts?


Clumsily tapped out by fat fingers on a tiny keyboard, probably on the move.

Hi Tim,

Sorry to be dense, but is the problem about 18.5 seconds when he sings "she ain't no woman of ****"?

If so, the pause sounds so perfectly timed in the song in repeated listening that it sounds intentional, or at worst a digital clip. (Your meters look awful high during a relatively soft part of the song, but I could be wrong about that. The only time they're visible is at the end when the camera is wandering around It looks like all the yellow is visible plus some lights beyond the top.)

And it sounds like the vocal disappears, maybe, but the rest of the band is audible during the gap?

Is it there or somewhere else?

Dan
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim Weaver on June 09, 2014, 11:21:08 am
Yes, that is where it is. And it is not intentional. It is also not digital clip.

I run the desk a little bit "hot" but I have good control over my dynamics.


Also it happene the next night playing low-level walk in music.


I just got home and will start investigating this week. I just thought it was interesting that I happen to catch this event on film


Clumsily tapped out by fat fingers on a tiny keyboard, probably on the move.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: John Moore on June 09, 2014, 12:00:40 pm
Sounds like a ESD discharge to me....I would not run a data cable with power combined for that length , maybe separate by 12" or more power vs. data and give it a whirl...all our cables are individual
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Dan Mortensen on June 09, 2014, 02:33:31 pm
Yes, that is where it is. And it is not intentional. It is also not digital clip.

I run the desk a little bit "hot" but I have good control over my dynamics.


Also it happene the next night playing low-level walk in music.


I just got home and will start investigating this week. I just thought it was interesting that I happen to catch this event on film


Clumsily tapped out by fat fingers on a tiny keyboard, probably on the move.

OK, thanks for that clarification.

Was the entire signal lost or just the vocal? Like I said, it sounded like maybe just the vocal, but I couldn't tell.

Have you checked to see that your Ethercons are actually shorted together by the shield? That's where I'd start.

Please keep us informed.

Thanks,
Dan

Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Tim Weaver on June 10, 2014, 07:38:18 pm
OK, thanks for that clarification.

Was the entire signal lost or just the vocal? Like I said, it sounded like maybe just the vocal, but I couldn't tell.

Have you checked to see that your Ethercons are actually shorted together by the shield? That's where I'd start.

Please keep us informed.

Thanks,
Dan

The entire signal was lost momentarily.

Can't check the continuity right now because the snake is 150 miles away from me unfortunately.


What is the proplex product that is recommended? PCCAT5EP or the "Ultra Patch" PCCAT5EUTPP.

I swear I read everything there was to read about these things and the consensus was, "use sheided cable with ethercon and you'll be fine"..... ::)
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Pyle on June 11, 2014, 01:00:18 pm
What is the proplex product that is recommended? PCCAT5EP or the "Ultra Patch" PCCAT5EUTPP.

PCCAT5EP
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Mike Pyle on June 13, 2014, 12:53:19 pm
Can't check the continuity right now because the snake is 150 miles away from me unfortunately.

I would like to know what brand & type cable it was.
Title: Re: behringer x32 cracking and popping with 2x S16 connected?
Post by: Bob Leonard on June 13, 2014, 03:19:44 pm
Has anyone tried category 7 cable yet?