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Title: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 01:09:38 pm
First off thank you for your time, I have changed my speaker configuration during a remodel, and now have two unique situations I hadn't had with the prior arrangement. I was hoping someone might be able to suggest some way to correct. This is in my garage and the equipment doesnít get moved. \

1. The U15Pís on sticks develop ear piercing HF at higher volumes (e.g. crash symbol) in the center of the room. itís not as bright/harsh on the right and left of the center clustered subs.
2. The bass output from the UCS1P is intense on the right and left flanks (which I like) but lacks that punch in the center of the cluster.

For reference I will include before (sounded pretty good) and after the remodel pictures. Equipment is powered Yorkville Unity, Allen and Heath ZED14 and laptop or Stanton 502.c . Only used for playback material that has been professionally recorded (not mp3).

The subs with the center clustered horns (before photo) sounded better but the way we use the space I need to keep a small footprint. Would placing the U15P on stick on the center two subs kind of like an array help, or rotating the U15Pís in or out?

Thank you,
Eric Crissman

Current configuration, Concrete floors, concrete walls (topped with hard coat), Plaster ceilings (insulated, glued and screwed)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_yorkville.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/yorkville.jpg.html)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_yorkville1.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/yorkville1.jpg.html)
HVAC bulkhead possible adding to the reflection.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_yorkville2.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/yorkville2.jpg.html)
Old setup, U15P angled down at about 20 degrees.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_garage005.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/garage005.jpg.html)
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Ned Ward on April 05, 2013, 01:18:27 pm
Couple of things that may help others help you:

Dimensions of garage? Normally empty, or filled with people?
Do you have a spl level that you can reference? even a freeware iPhone app measurement from 5 yards away would help to give people an idea of the volume that's present in the room.
What kind of music?
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Greg_Cameron on April 05, 2013, 01:26:27 pm
Acoustic treatment in general should help, but even some pieces of Auralex directly in front of the speakers on the ceiling would probably help and anywhere they're directly pointed (is that bulkhead in front of the speakers?). Make sure whatever you use is properly certified for fire safety for you locale.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 01:29:44 pm
Yes the bulkhead is approx 15' in front of the speakers and has a 10" down projection so the top most portion of the horn would catch the bottom of the bulkhead (probably 6 or so inches of overlap).
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 02:09:55 pm
The garage is 30x60 with 10' ceiling. The area where the audio is approx 28x30. Normally 8-20 people when we have parties, the music is primarily new music top 20 dance. I do have a meter and will get some readings as soon as I get home.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 05, 2013, 02:43:52 pm
Dimensions of garage? ...

A sketch of the garage (overhead view) would be helpful, showing the speaker locations, walls, AC soffit, and other physical obstructions...
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 04:11:36 pm
A sketch of the garage (overhead view) would be helpful, showing the speaker locations, walls, AC soffit, and other physical obstructions...

I will have to draw it freehand, I messed around for about a half hour trying to find a free program. But didn't have a any luck. If you have a suggestion for a program I am open to it.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 05, 2013, 05:23:10 pm
I will have to draw it freehand, I messed around for about a half hour trying to find a free program. But didn't have a any luck. If you have a suggestion for a program I am open to it.

The "drawing" program that came with Windows or the Mac OS will suffice.

What's wrong with simply turning it down?
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 05:30:46 pm
The "drawing" program that came with Windows or the Mac OS will suffice.

What's wrong with simply turning it down?

I would like to use it to its fullest. But your right turning it down would eliminate the problem.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 05, 2013, 05:41:25 pm
I would like to use it to its fullest. But your right turning it down would eliminate the problem.

I have a rack of Crown ITech 8000s running a stack of 4 JBL VerTec 4889.  If I were to use it "to its fullest" here the in shop the neighborhood dogs would run away, my staff would grab hearing protection and the police would show up.

Do what is appropriate.  Your car will probably go 100 mph, too, but you'd be foolish to drive at that speed on public roadways.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Tim Perry on April 05, 2013, 06:30:42 pm
The garage is 30x60 with 10' ceiling. The area where the audio is approx 28x30. Normally 8-20 people when we have parties, the music is primarily new music top 20 dance. I do have a meter and will get some readings as soon as I get home.

Some processors have a function called dynamic EQ. 

Employing one of these could enable you to roll off the highs when it reaches a preset loudness threshold.

I will draw your attention to the DCX2496 for example.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 06:41:02 pm
Ok here is a layout of the building.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_garage1.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/garage1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 06:42:11 pm
Some processors have a function called dynamic EQ. 

Employing one of these could enable you to roll off the highs when it reaches a preset loudness threshold.

I will draw your attention to the DCX2496 for example.
Thank you I will check it out.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Josh Daws on April 05, 2013, 06:48:20 pm
finally hearing the sound of a yorkville cabinet ay...the HF screams on those cabinets...lol but they still are solid boxes...

if you were going to look at the DCX2496, i would rather steer you in another direction of the Driverack PA+ from DBX. for $50 more, it certainly is money better spent.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 05, 2013, 06:59:52 pm


if you were going to look at the DCX2496, i would rather steer you in another direction of the Driverack PA+ from DBX. for $50 more, it certainly is money better spent.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.......

In fact, I wouldn't say that at all.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Matthew Knischewsky on April 05, 2013, 07:00:14 pm
1. The U15Pís on sticks develop ear piercing HF at higher volumes (e.g. crash symbol) in the center of the room. itís not as bright/harsh on the right and left of the center clustered subs.
2. The bass output from the UCS1P is intense on the right and left flanks (which I like) but lacks that punch in the center of the cluster.


Your comment about lack of punch in the middle makes me think you have a polarity reverse between left and right.

Matt
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 07:15:05 pm
The Db reading at the middle of the "sound area" peaks at 112.3db, didn't matter if I was LCR. Man those HF are screaming. I just don't understand they sounded so nice and clean before. I mean they are ear pierciing WOW! I am here because the orginal setup was designed by you professionals on PSW.
 

I have to wonder if those HF are reflecting off the ceiling since the tops are at the same height as before but not angled

We use the garage as a club and entertaining area. The ladies and teens think of it as concert or club setting so we like that intense volume and punch from the subs.

Any thoughts of changing the angle (rotate outward/inward) of the tops? If I rotate them outward I slightly reduce the "brightness" of the horns. But it doesn't sound as accurate.

Some more pictures to go with my sketch.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_GOPR0066.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/GOPR0066.jpg.html)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_GOPR0067.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/GOPR0067.jpg.html)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_GOPR0068.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/GOPR0068.jpg.html)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_GOPR0069.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/GOPR0069.jpg.html)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_GOPR0070.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/GOPR0070.jpg.html)
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 07:17:20 pm

Your comment about lack of punch in the middle makes me think you have a polarity reverse between left and right.

Matt

I can check my wiring, currently its R/L (XLR) out of the mixer into the tops, drop down to to outer subs then using the link into the middle subs. Before I did have everything wired into the subs then into the tops.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Tim Perry on April 05, 2013, 07:46:04 pm
Thank you I will check it out.

The U15 have 60 x 60 degree (conical) HF pattern. You have moved them much closer together then before and now they are aimed partly at the ductwork.

Yes it looks way cool but I would suggest moving them further apart and bringing down the height or tilting them down.

Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 07:48:53 pm
Correction, I had the meter to record the low db, peak db is 112.3. I measured this L/C/R. Trimming my HF back on the mixer helped some.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 07:52:33 pm
The U15 have 60 x 60 degree (conical) HF pattern. You have moved them much closer together then before and now they are aimed partly at the ductwork.

Yes it looks way cool but I would suggest moving them further apart and bringing down the height or tilting them down.

I wish I could tilt them down some. I may have to fly them to get that angle. That opens up a whole new can of worms. These things aren't light it was a 2 person job getting them on the sticks.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Greg_Cameron on April 05, 2013, 08:22:22 pm
I wish I could tilt them down some. I may have to fly them to get that angle. That opens up a whole new can of worms. These things aren't light it was a 2 person job getting them on the sticks.

Maybe look into the BT-12 (http://www.bt-12.com/features.php) which will support up to 100lb. and maintain the center of gravity of your boxes up on the poles with the down tilt. They're not cheap but probably cheaper than flying.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Tim Perry on April 05, 2013, 08:24:30 pm
I wish I could tilt them down some. I may have to fly them to get that angle. That opens up a whole new can of worms. These things aren't light it was a 2 person job getting them on the sticks.

see if anything from quick loc looks interesting. http://www.quiklok.com/pdfs/Quik%20Lok%20Speaker%20&%20Lighting%20Stands.pdf
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 05, 2013, 08:25:05 pm
Maybe look into the BT-12 (http://www.bt-12.com/features.php) which will support up to 100lb. and maintain the center of gravity of your boxes up on the poles with the down tilt. They're not cheap but probably cheaper than flying.
I'll  check those out. These Yorkville adjustable poles aren't anything to write home about.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Stu McDoniel on April 05, 2013, 10:58:56 pm
First off thank you for your time, I have changed my speaker configuration during a remodel, and now have two unique situations I hadn't had with the prior arrangement. I was hoping someone might be able to suggest some way to correct. This is in my garage and the equipment doesnít get moved. \

1. The U15Pís on sticks develop ear piercing HF at higher volumes (e.g. crash symbol) in the center of the room. itís not as bright/harsh on the right and left of the center clustered subs.
2. The bass output from the UCS1P is intense on the right and left flanks (which I like) but lacks that punch in the center of the cluster.

For reference I will include before (sounded pretty good) and after the remodel pictures. Equipment is powered Yorkville Unity, Allen and Heath ZED14 and laptop or Stanton 502.c . Only used for playback material that has been professionally recorded (not mp3).

The subs with the center clustered horns (before photo) sounded better but the way we use the space I need to keep a small footprint. Would placing the U15P on stick on the center two subs kind of like an array help, or rotating the U15Pís in or out?

Thank you,
Eric Crissman

Current configuration, Concrete floors, concrete walls (topped with hard coat), Plaster ceilings (insulated, glued and screwed)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_yorkville.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/yorkville.jpg.html)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_yorkville1.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/yorkville1.jpg.html)
HVAC bulkhead possible adding to the reflection.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_yorkville2.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/yorkville2.jpg.html)
Old setup, U15P angled down at about 20 degrees.
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/Elcrissman/prosound%20web/th_garage005.jpg) (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/Elcrissman/media/prosound%20web/garage005.jpg.html)
Take the boxes off the sticks and set them on top of the subs.  Two choices. 
Either separate the subs and and the tops to either side of the open area or put the hi pac boxes together in the center of the sub cluster on top of the subs.  Unless that space you have is filled with human beings blocking coverage to the back of the room then keep the tops down on the subs.
Don't you think you have some comb filter crap going on with that current setup?  You have a highly reflective space there.   You can use to room treatments as well.
I tell ya if you lose the poles and put the tops together in the center of that heap you will have better results.

Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 06, 2013, 01:13:35 am
Drop the top cabinets about a foot and put six more feet between them.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 06, 2013, 04:45:51 am
A few more thoughts.

It would probably sound better with the speakers firing down the long axis of your garage,  That will go a long way towards reducing the rear wall echo volume (unless you are running with the garage door open).

Where did you take the SPL measurement, 1' from the speakers or 30' away?  Makes a big difference.

I'm confused by the pictures, the first one shows raw cinder block walls but the garage photos all look like painted walls.

Getting the tops off the ceiling and tilting them should help.  Also some treatment on the ceiling in front of the speakers (RockWool, OC703) should help. Pretend like the sound is a billiard ball and treat the reflection point between the speakers and the audience problem areas.

Do you really need stereo? For that room and your huge speakers I'd be tempted to put the speakers in a corner and only use one of the tops.  Should be plenty loud. No comb filtering, minimal wall reflections, and might even out the bass a little.







Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 06, 2013, 05:36:12 am
1. The U15Pís on sticks develop ear piercing HF at higher volumes (e.g. crash symbol) in the center of the room. itís not as bright/harsh on the right and left of the center clustered subs.

Most of the discussion here has been around moving/tilting the tops to get rid of early reflections and comb filtering between the two cabs.  FWIW, these effects usual blur (attenuate) high frequencies so I'm not sure that is your root problem if the highs are piercing with your current setup.  A little parametric EQ should tame the shrill highs and the placement/tilt/treatment should clean u the highs, but it wont make them softer.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 06, 2013, 07:52:56 am
I go along with that Mark but my statement concerning dropping the height of the top cabinets has to do with reflections off of the ceiling, plus as close together as they are in the pictures tends to make me feel he's got a pretty good beaming effect going on as well. One quick change the OP could make, even if he did nothing else, would be to aim the speakers more towards the outside walls. He'll get some reflection, but he'll find that much more pleasant than summing those horns, plus he's fill the room using lower volumes that sound just as loud.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 06, 2013, 08:03:27 am
A few more thoughts.

It would probably sound better with the speakers firing down the long axis of your garage,  That will go a long way towards reducing the rear wall echo volume (unless you are running with the garage door open).

Where did you take the SPL measurement, 1' from the speakers or 30' away?  Makes a big difference.

*** I took the measurements 15' away standing directly in front of the cluster. Then walked directly to the right and then to the left staying on the  center axis. I only measured the side of the garage  that has the speakers (approx 28 wide X 30 deep).

I'm confused by the pictures, the first one shows raw cinder block walls but the garage photos all look like painted walls.

***It's the same space hence the "remodel" Actually the system is only a few feet to the left of its orignal location, you can see the same glass block window in the before and after pictures. (BTW thank you I'll take that as an indirect compliment, It was a lot of work making those cinder block wall into hard coat plaster and painted walls).

Getting the tops off the ceiling and tilting them should help.  Also some treatment on the ceiling in front of the speakers (RockWool, OC703) should help. Pretend like the sound is a billiard ball and treat the reflection point between the speakers and the audience problem areas.

*** I agree I need some type of treatment, last night experimenting here is what I found. Of course this is only based on my ear, and honestly after awhile fatigue sets in. If I rotate the speakers outward toward the wall closest to each top the harshness is reduced not eliminated but reduced compaired to the tops firing directly forward. I noticed the same thing rotating the tops both inward (toe in). I can get a simular result with the tops firing directly forward by triming the 12kHz gain back -5 on the board. It is totally dependant on the material, some of the hip hop dance stuff I play can be brutal, while others I actually need to increase the 12kHz.

Do you really need stereo? For that room and your huge speakers I'd be tempted to put the speakers in a corner and only use one of the tops.  Should be plenty loud. No comb filtering, minimal wall reflections, and might even out the bass a little.

Honestly, I don't really need any of this but when it's setup right it sure makes for a nice system.

Thank you for taking so much time with me on this, I appreciate it.

Hmm sorry me inserting my comments within the quote didn't work out quite like I thought. My replys are in blue.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 06, 2013, 08:20:37 am
I go along with that Mark but my statement concerning dropping the height of the top cabinets has to do with reflections off of the ceiling, plus as close together as they are in the pictures tends to make me feel he's got a pretty good beaming effect going on as well. One quick change the OP could make, even if he did nothing else, would be to aim the speakers more towards the outside walls. He'll get some reflection, but he'll find that much more pleasant than summing those horns, plus he's fill the room using lower volumes that sound just as loud.

You are exactly right;  I was posting my experience rotating the speakers toward the outside walls. What I wasn't so sure of is how much? Since the speakers can be arrayed would you rotate to the point the inside of each speaker would be parallel as if it was being arrayed.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: John Halliburton on April 06, 2013, 09:59:57 am
You are exactly right;  I was posting my experience rotating the speakers toward the outside walls. What I wasn't so sure of is how much? Since the speakers can be arrayed would you rotate to the point the inside of each speaker would be parallel as if it was being arrayed.
Piling on, the room and the placement of the speakers are important, as you've found.  You're "sweet spot" is  now a "hot spot".  I would seriously consider tilting the speakers downward some, even in the current position.  I'd also consider getting some acoustic absorption material on the ceiling in front of the speakers, and some behind the cabinets-come out of the wall/ceiling junction with the material.  The room is very reflective right now and needs some taming.
If these stay there permanently, I'd want to turn them sideways, and mount them to the ceiling joists and adjust some downward angle to taste/need.  I would also spread them further apart as you had originally.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 06, 2013, 10:08:20 am
Piling on, the room and the placement of the speakers are important, as you've found.  You're "sweet spot" is  now a "hot spot".  I would seriously consider tilting the speakers downward some, even in the current position.  I'd also consider getting some acoustic absorption material on the ceiling in front of the speakers, and some behind the cabinets-come out of the wall/ceiling junction with the material.  The room is very reflective right now and needs some taming.
If these stay there permanently, I'd want to turn them sideways, and mount them to the ceiling joists and adjust some downward angle to taste/need.  I would also spread them further apart as you had originally.

Best regards,

John

By turn them sideways do you mean toward the outer walls? Like the top picture in my sketch? I also agree I need some sound absorbtion materials in front of the tops. Possibly start with a wedge where the HVAC bulkhead and ceiling meet and work my way back towards the cluster.

Yes this is permanent until the wall needs fresh coat if paint.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 06, 2013, 11:05:07 am
Is the garage door usually open or closed during these sessions?

If it's closed, I'm sticking with my suggestion of
1) fire the speakers down the long axis of the garage (move them left one wall, center them on this 30 foot wall). This will move the bass room modes down in frequency and reduce the amount of echo off the back wall.  Should clean up the sound quite a bit.
2) stack the tops directly on the subs or tilt them.  There are several recent discussions on tilters, fixed angle tilters are under $100. Cheaper than treatment.
3) Now unplug one of the speakers and see what you have.  You can leave the second speaker there to look cool, it doesn't have to be on. Some pro concerts use stacks of mock guitar cabinets, do it like the pros.

This is an easy, free test that should help with both high frequency and low frequency control.

It might also be worth trying a corner setup, again with one top, or the two tops stacked on top of each other, with one of them upside down to get the horns physically close to each other (I'm assuming the horns are at the top of these cabs, not in the middle).  Strap em together with a truck ratched strap from Wallmart, and don't ratchet too tight if you use the handles.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 06, 2013, 11:18:49 am
I got it, and will test them. I will also search for the fixed angle tilt, I was under the impression that a tilt post or speaker sockets couldnt handle the weight. Other than the distance apart and tilt they had before they are the same height. I will test your suggestion hopefully sometime this weekend. Thank you.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 06, 2013, 12:30:36 pm
I got it, and will test them. I will also search for the fixed angle tilt, I was under the impression that a tilt post or speaker sockets couldnt handle the weight. Other than the distance apart and tilt they had before they are the same height. I will test your suggestion hopefully sometime this weekend. Thank you.

I could tell you how to fix it with very little effort, but then I'd have to kill you.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Tim Perry on April 06, 2013, 12:38:48 pm
I could tell you how to fix it with very little effort, but then I'd have to kill you.

go ahead and tell us Dick... ya can'na kill everybody ! :)
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 06, 2013, 12:47:46 pm
go ahead and tell us Dick... ya can'na kill everybody ! :)

Simple answer:

If it was fine before you changed it, put it back that way.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 06, 2013, 12:55:44 pm
LOL, that would fix it. That's to easy though, I know a lot of you guys have come up against some serious audio problems and I like picking your brain and learning from your experience.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Tim Perry on April 06, 2013, 02:30:33 pm
LOL, that would fix it. That's to easy though, I know a lot of you guys have come up against some serious audio problems and I like picking your brain and learning from your experience.

Small venue sound: 90 x 50 horns. not too high, not to low. k-sub per side.. all that's needed for this one.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 06, 2013, 02:52:59 pm
Small venue sound: 90 x 50 horns. not too high, not to low. k-sub per side.. all that's needed for this one.

Doesn't that just blast people in the face?  I am going to try that though super easy.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 06, 2013, 04:04:30 pm
I got it, and will test them. I will also search for the fixed angle tilt, I was under the impression that a tilt post or speaker sockets couldnt handle the weight. Other than the distance apart and tilt they had before they are the same height. I will test your suggestion hopefully sometime this weekend. Thank you.

The K&M fixed angle tilters I have have a way to reposition the speaker, so that the center of mass stays over the pole. This is an important feature.  The tilters should be rated for the weight of your speakers (better to have some excess capacity).  K&M is a reputable brand, you can trust their specs and their steel.  Someone (Dick?)  previously mentioned toilet shims to adjust the angle, you can search for that thread, the shims allow you to fine tune the downward tilt but I suspect for your app a 20 degree tilt will be about perfect.

Also note, it should sound significantly better with people in the room, than with the room empty.  The people will absorb and scatter some of the high frequencies before they bounce off the concrete floor.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 06, 2013, 04:30:48 pm

Also note, it should sound significantly better with people in the room, than with the room empty.  The people will absorb and scatter some of the high frequencies before they bounce off the concrete floor.

SOUNDS GRRRRREAT!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 06, 2013, 04:47:41 pm
The K&M fixed angle tilters I have have a way to reposition the speaker, so that the center of mass stays over the pole. This is an important feature.  The tilters should be rated for the weight of your speakers (better to have some excess capacity).  K&M is a reputable brand, you can trust their specs and their steel.  Someone (Dick?)  previously mentioned toilet shims to adjust the angle, you can search for that thread, the shims allow you to fine tune the downward tilt but I suspect for your app a 20 degree tilt will be about perfect.

Also note, it should sound significantly better with people in the room, than with the room empty.  The people will absorb and scatter some of the high frequencies before they bounce off the concrete floor.

Awesome! Last night we had some people over and some bodies did make a difference. Of course they didn't look nearly as good as the post above.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 06, 2013, 06:16:35 pm
Wow, with the garage door open whoa! Sounds good, not sure the the golfers appreciate the material but it's like being "in concert". I found my reflective surface, I believe its the garage door.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 06, 2013, 11:50:32 pm
Wow, with the garage door open whoa! Sounds good, not sure the the golfers appreciate the material but it's like being "in concert". I found my reflective surface, I believe its the garage door.

If that helped, then aiming the speakers down the long axis of the garage will help.  You can also treat the back of the garage with Rockwool or OC703 panels.  There are off-the-shelf garage door insulting panels that will help some with mid-highs, but you really don't want a foil faced (reflective) surface and normal insulation doesn't work very well as an absorber, you need something with a fairly high density.

If you use Rockwool or OC703 you'll NEED to cover it with a fire retardant, acoustically transparent material.  Even a few panels on the door will help, you don't need to cover it 100%.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Tim Perry on April 07, 2013, 10:36:48 pm
Doesn't that just blast people in the face?  I am going to try that though super easy.

Well, blast is such an ugly word.  In live SR you bring up what is needed and mix with what is produced on stage.

My overall philosophy is make music, not noise.

The U15 has nine rigging points each. No reason I can see that you couldn't hang these things and tilt em down.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 08, 2013, 09:47:35 am
It won't be practical to leave the door open, and now you've found what every 60's garage band found 50 years ago. High volumes bounce off the doors and high frequencies win every time. The horns for your top boxes should be just above head height, 6' and the cabinets turned about 20 degrees towards the wall, adjusted to taste while playing. Add a few sound deadening panels like the panels below and rock on brutha.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SFlat1114PUR?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CKXi6ciau7YCFY4-MgodczMAAw (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SFlat1114PUR?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CKXi6ciau7YCFY4-MgodczMAAw)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Auralex (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Auralex)
 

 
PS - we used egg crates in the 60's.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 08, 2013, 11:10:27 am
... Add a few sound deadening panels like the panels below and rock on brutha.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SFlat1114PUR?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CKXi6ciau7YCFY4-MgodczMAAw (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SFlat1114PUR?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CKXi6ciau7YCFY4-MgodczMAAw)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Auralex (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Auralex)
 

 
PS - we used egg crates in the 60's.

The Auralex foam will work as an absorber, but typically not as well as Rockwool or OC703.  Out of the box the foam can be pretty, and it's very easy to hang.  Over time it will collect a lot of dust (need gentle vacuuming) and be prone to damage (chunks tearing out) from things bumping into it. Also, Getting glued-on foam off of walls will tear off wallboard paper or pretty much any other surface coating (been there, done that).

Rockwool or OC703 panels are cheaper and provide broader band and more absorption. Pre-made panels (GIK and others) are moderately expensive, but with some 1*2s, a hand saw, picture wire, wallboard corner edging, and some flame retardant covering (http://www.guilfordofmaine.com/acoustic/panel)  you can whip out some really nice wall treatment that you can hang like a picture, and easily move around.    Build the 1*2 frame the same size as the panels (typically 2'*4') and place the frame behind the panels so the Rockwool/OC703 is 2" off the wall to get better absorption.  Add wallboard 'outside corner moulding' to the front of the panels to give a nice sharp edge, cover in fabric and staple gun it to the wood frame.

I suspect the Bob's (recycled paper) egg crates provided half absorption and half diffusion, and neither one very well.  And a nasty fire hazard.

Here's a few pics of my Rockwool panels: http://www.arkoserecords.com/Studio/tabid/60/Default.aspx (http://www.arkoserecords.com/Studio/tabid/60/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 08, 2013, 11:22:49 am
It won't be practical to leave the door open, and now you've found what every 60's garage band found 50 years ago. High volumes bounce off the doors and high frequencies win every time. The horns for your top boxes should be just above head height, 6' and the cabinets turned about 20 degrees towards the wall, adjusted to taste while playing. Add a few sound deadening panels like the panels below and rock on brutha.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SFlat1114PUR?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CKXi6ciau7YCFY4-MgodczMAAw (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SFlat1114PUR?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=none&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CKXi6ciau7YCFY4-MgodczMAAw)

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Auralex (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Auralex)
 

 
PS - we used egg crates in the 60's.

Your right leaving the doors open isn't always practicle. We did have them open on Saturday and the friends that came over kept complimenting on the sound. Their opinion was sounded better than it ever has in the past. Opening the space made the subs sound soooo sweet, and the HF nice and accurate.

Some sound treatment is in order.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 08, 2013, 11:25:04 am
Your right leaving the doors open isn't always practicle. We did have them open on Saturday and the friends that came over kept complimenting on the sound. Their opinion was sounded better than it ever has in the past. Opening the space made the subs sound soooo sweet, and the HF nice and accurate.

Some sound treatment is in order.

Putting your speakers on the short wall, and firing them down the 60' length of the garage will help a lot with the highs, without treatment.

BTW, I am planning to steal your 30'*60' garage.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 08, 2013, 11:25:30 am
The Auralex foam will work as an absorber, but typically not as well as Rockwool or OC703.  Out of the box the foam can be pretty, and it's very easy to hang.  Over time it will collect a lot of dust (need gentle vacuuming) and be prone to damage (chunks tearing out) from things bumping into it. Also, Getting glued-on foam off of walls will tear off wallboard paper or pretty much any other surface coating (been there, done that).

Rockwool or OC703 panels are cheaper and provide broader band and more absorption. Pre-made panels (GIK and others) are moderately expensive, but with some 1*2s, a hand saw, picture wire, wallboard corner edging, and some flame retardant covering (http://www.guilfordofmaine.com/acoustic/panel)  you can whip out some really nice wall treatment that you can hang like a picture, and easily move around.    Build the 1*2 frame the same size as the panels (typically 2'*4') and place the frame behind the panels so the Rockwool/OC703 is 2" off the wall to get better absorption.  Add wallboard 'outside corner moulding' to the front of the panels to give a nice sharp edge, cover in fabric and staple gun it to the wood frame.

I suspect the Bob's (recycled paper) egg crates provided half absorption and half diffusion, and neither one very well.  And a nasty fire hazard.

Here's a few pics of my Rockwool panels: http://www.arkoserecords.com/Studio/tabid/60/Default.aspx (http://www.arkoserecords.com/Studio/tabid/60/Default.aspx)

Great links thank you, will definitely make some. !!!
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Eric Crissman on April 08, 2013, 11:26:52 am
Putting your speakers on the short wall, and firing them down the 60' length of the garage will help a lot with the highs, without treatment.

BTW, I am planning to steal your 30'*60' garage.

I can help you with the 30x60. That's what I do.
Title: Re: New speaker placement causing deafing HF, please help.
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 08, 2013, 01:58:15 pm

I suspect the Bob's (recycled paper) egg crates provided half absorption and half diffusion, and neither one very well.  And a nasty fire hazard.

Here's a few pics of my Rockwool panels: http://www.arkoserecords.com/Studio/tabid/60/Default.aspx (http://www.arkoserecords.com/Studio/tabid/60/Default.aspx)

Jeez Mark, only one fire I can think of, and we were lucky we could even get the egg crates back then, let alone fancy schmancy panels like yours.
 
Nice studio by the way, far better than the 70x40 basement of my 100 year old house.