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Title: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on March 29, 2013, 10:53:18 am
SEE THREAD UPDATE:

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,143130.msg1353668.html#msg1353668

Hey guys,
We are working with a AV designer/installer..and these are their recommendations for our new facility. It seats about 1000, with about 450 seats on the floor and rest on the risers.

   (1) New Avid Venue SC-48 48-Channel Mixing Console
   (16) New JBL VerTec VT4886 Line Array Cabinets
   (6) New JBL VerTec VT4883 Flying Subwoofers

   (7) New JBL AC-15 Stage Fill Speakers
   (5) New Crown Audio Macro-Tech MA-12000i Power Amplifiers
   (1) New Crown Audio CTs4200 Power Amplifier

   (1) New BSS Audio Digital Signal Processing System
o   (1) BSS Audio BLU-100 and (1) BSS Audio BOB

What does everyone think of what they are proposing? Worship is contemporary. I would say something like Lakewood Church in Houston. Songs from Chris Tomlin/Hillsong/David Crowder/Passion etc.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Mac Kerr on March 29, 2013, 11:30:31 am
What does everyone think of what they are proposing? Worship is contemporary. I would say something like Lakewood Church in Houston. Songs from Chris Tomlin/Hillsong/David Crowder/Passion etc.

Aside from what I think could be a terrible architectural design, I think you will want delay systems for the last 6 or 7 rows. Up high under the lower ceiling like that the main arrays may not cut it. That is a lot of vertical angle to cover and it is easy to shortchange the back rows.

I would rather see the diagonal back walls be smaller which would reduce the reflections and increase the seating area, and there doesn't seem to be enough backstage for any church offices, dressing rooms for visiting musical artists, storage for visiting artist roadboxes, prep areas for special events etc.

The gear is all fine.

Mac
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on March 29, 2013, 01:07:34 pm
The gear looks fine.

I agree with Mac that I'd be tempted to go for some delays for the upper tiered seating. You also may need some front fills since the arrays are high and the seating is very close to the PA hanging point. The image will be very high.

I'd also suggest that if front row coverage is important (which it is in most churches, because thats where the leadership sit) you might consider some kind of center downfill/frontfill solution.

This is all speculation from looking at those drawings though...

Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Jerome Malsack on March 29, 2013, 01:14:57 pm
Consider a projection wall and screen??   
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Scott Helmke on March 29, 2013, 05:09:42 pm
Ditto on the balcony delays, that looks like a very long shot. Adding delays will probably reduce the SPL needs from the cluster, resulting in less trouble getting gain out of lav mics and such.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on March 31, 2013, 05:29:13 pm
Aside from what I think could be a terrible architectural design, I think you will want delay systems for the last 6 or 7 rows. Up high under the lower ceiling like that the main arrays may not cut it. That is a lot of vertical angle to cover and it is easy to shortchange the back rows.

I would rather see the diagonal back walls be smaller which would reduce the reflections and increase the seating area, and there doesn't seem to be enough backstage for any church offices, dressing rooms for visiting musical artists, storage for visiting artist roadboxes, prep areas for special events etc.

The gear is all fine.
Mac

There's more to the facility which has church offices, and bridal prep area etc. I do agree that there are too many seats on the riser vs what's on the floor (thus leading to that long diagonal wall). I tried to get more storage in the backstage..but that didn't go as planned. :-)

I send the question about delays to the designer. The problem is cost.

I'd also suggest that if front row coverage is important (which it is in most churches, because thats where the leadership sit) you might consider some kind of center downfill/frontfill solution.

There's 7 JBL AC-15 speakers on stage for the front 2-3 seats.

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. God bless. Happy Easter.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 31, 2013, 05:50:49 pm

I send the question about delays to the designer. The problem is cost.

Then maybe you need to be looking at a different type of system-ie not line array.

Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Arthur Skudra on March 31, 2013, 05:59:02 pm
Justin,
If cost is an issue, you're better off with a well designed point source system than with cool looking line array.  You're essentially having to mix mono anyway with any line array design in here, so why not do mono REALLY well with a really good point source system, with a delay ring for the amphitheater style seats at the back?
Also what concerns me is all the parallel surfaces in the octagon shaped room, some simple splaying of walls can go a long way towards alleviating some echo problems that will certainly occur.
Arthur
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on March 31, 2013, 07:21:50 pm
I'm in agreement with a few posters on this thread.  Delays are probably going to be needed for the back of the space.  A line array, especially a compact one like the 4886, is not necessarily the best option for this space.  Considering at the height at which it will be flown and how far into the house it will be I think the seating area on the main floor will not be covered as well as it should be.  The AC-15s will fill the first row or two but that's about it. 
Also it doesn't appear the width of the venue has been taken into consideration.  I'm skeptical that the line array positions, as drawn, will cover the width of the venue well enough to give even coverage in the seating areas. 
The more I look at this the more I think a point source system deployed properly would cover the space much better. 
An aside - It's too bad that more spaces are taking the "award show" approach to stages by not desiring or allowing any ground stacks at all on the stage.  Ground stacks still have a place in designing and deploying a system for optimum coverage.  I've experienced first hand house systems that don't spec ground stacks to help cover the main floor.  Management and patrons were much happier once ground stacks were purchased and deployed. 
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on March 31, 2013, 10:52:30 pm
I will talk with the designer about all the suggestions that has come up so far.

Also he recommended PRX stage monitors. Are those ok? I have seen some posts about the angle being weird. I was hoping for SRX or STX but it's a lot more per channel once you add in the required amps.

Any other powered monitors that you guys recommend instead of PRX?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 31, 2013, 11:36:46 pm
I will talk with the designer about all the suggestions that has come up so far.

Also he recommended PRX stage monitors. Are those ok? I have seen some posts about the angle being weird. I was hoping for SRX or STX but it's a lot more per channel once you add in the required amps.

Any other powered monitors that you guys recommend instead of PRX?

We needed "B" stage monitors.  We looked at 5 or 6 different speakers before settling on SRX712M.  Unfortunately no longer available, they had the combination of output, weight, size/shape/angle that we needed for our very specific use.

For a HoW, I'd suggest looking at the Vue a-12.  The sound of the Vue boxes reminds me of some very expensive European speakers that need their own amps & processing... ;)

As for your PA... I think you should ask the designer for the coverage and field SPL predictions for the 4886 rig as proposed.  Hint:  I agree with other posts that do not feel the 4886 rig is sufficient for your needs without a delay ring.  You need a much longer line of higher output speakers and the subs need to be flown differently in order to get the trim height you will need OR the entire concept needs to be revisited.

Does this system design come from a vendor that shares a name with an automobile manufacturer, by chance?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 01, 2013, 07:20:23 am
I will talk with the designer about all the suggestions that has come up so far.

Also he recommended PRX stage monitors. Are those ok? I have seen some posts about the angle being weird. I was hoping for SRX or STX but it's a lot more per channel once you add in the required amps.

Any other powered monitors that you guys recommend instead of PRX?
It is interesting to me (especially in HOW-that we give the people who are the most picky about sound (the musicians), "whatever is left over" or the lowest quality loudspeakers.

Should they not be getting the BETTER speakers?

The problem I have with powered stage monitors is that you have two cables going to each speaker.  There is typically enough clutter on stage, and in a church the stage should look as clean as possible.

Just something to think about.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Mac Kerr on April 01, 2013, 12:36:05 pm
The problem I have with powered stage monitors is that you have two cables going to each speaker.  There is typically enough clutter on stage, and in a church the stage should look as clean as possible.

That is only a problem if you don't think far enough ahead when buying them to also order the right cable to power and drive them. Combo cables with power and audio come with almost every powered speaker I run into. There is no cable issue with the vendors I get gear from.

Mac
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Jason Andreasen on April 01, 2013, 02:00:49 pm
One more point to ponder... If you are looking at all new amps/wedges for stage monitoring, have you considered moving to IEM/Personal Monitoring?  There are quite a few good options these days - In particular I think the Allen Heath system looks really promising in terms of capability while still providing a user friendly interface.  Of course there's the standard Aviom setup, MyMix, Elite Core, and I think Avid even has an option if you're going with the SC48.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: brian maddox on April 01, 2013, 04:20:28 pm
One more point to ponder... If you are looking at all new amps/wedges for stage monitoring, have you considered moving to IEM/Personal Monitoring?  There are quite a few good options these days - In particular I think the Allen Heath system looks really promising in terms of capability while still providing a user friendly interface.  Of course there's the standard Aviom setup, MyMix, Elite Core, and I think Avid even has an option if you're going with the SC48.

+1000

any HOW that is putting in a new system and isn't putting in some kind of Personal Monitor Mixing Solution is really missing the boat IMHO.  there are very good options at almost every price point now.  and every HOW battles SPL problems that can be significantly reduced with a good IEM system.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 01, 2013, 04:40:55 pm
We got a youth band (that will use IEM) and an adult band who can't spell IEM who demand loud monitors on stage. Thus the need for the hybrid system.

So there's 6 Aviom units + 2 Shure wireless IEM units already in the design. The stage monitors are in addition to that for the adult band.

If we go with the STX812m (800,1600,3200watts), whats the cost effective way to power them?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 01, 2013, 06:12:18 pm
We got a youth band (that will use IEM) and an adult band who can't spell IEM who demand loud monitors on stage. Thus the need for the hybrid system.

So there's 6 Aviom units + 2 Shure wireless IEM units already in the design. The stage monitors are in addition to that for the adult band.

If we go with the STX812m (800,1600,3200watts), whats the cost effective way to power them?

Given this layout you are only covering about 1/4 to 1/2 your audience reasonably.  In my opinion this layout needs to be rethought so that the vast majority are covered evenly unless there are delays and front fills that are not indicated.

Lee
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 01, 2013, 06:25:57 pm
Given this layout you are only covering about 1/4 to 1/2 your audience reasonably.  In my opinion this layout needs to be rethought so that the vast majority are covered evenly unless there are delays and front fills that are not indicated.

Lee
Front fills are not on the sound mapping I posted (but are included). No delays as part of the design.

Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 02, 2013, 11:34:53 pm
"The risers being covered, was a simple aiming correction on the drawing.  It was changed by accident when i was copying the models over.  It has been corrected.  Please see the attached file.  Please note, the front of the seating area on the floor doesn't look as well covered, but this mapping doesn't reflect the stage fills adding sound to the front chairs."

What do you guys think now?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Brad Weber on April 03, 2013, 05:32:40 am
I should predicate any comments with saying that your system designer and Architect probably know a lot more about the project and your goals than I do, so keep that in mind.

That section and the coverage shown in the array software seem to only address on axis of the two arrays but what happens off axis?  Did the system designer do any prediction beyond the on-axis vertical coverage shown?  And did they look at any frequencies other than 500Hz and 1kHz?  It would be interesting to see how well each array covers the entire seating if the system is stereo and how much combiltering and power alley you might get for mono sources as well as things like the resulting intelligibility.

I don't know what the ceiling material is but does the system designer expect any issues from the distance the LF boxes are from the ceiling?

Has anyone verified that the AC15 front fills can physically fit in the locations shown?  Unless the speakers actually sit exposed on top of the steps you are probably going to need some type of enclosure that is larger than the speaker while also having to work within the step height.  And which plan is correct, the seven stage fill locations shown on the speaker plan seem to not work with the Platform front shown on the overall floor plan (the center location is bumped out while the two extreme side speakers would appear to be aimed at the walls).

Speaking of steps, any access to the platform seems to involve four steps.  ADA access is not a requirement but not having one or more ramp access paths to the Platform could prevent limiting the potential use of the space and make getting things on and off the Platform easier.

Are you planning on all the amplifiers and processing being located at FOH?  It would seem to make sense to have an amp room closer to the speakers.

Is anybody addressing acoustics and not just room finishes but also aspects such as room shaping and dimensions, sound isolation and mechanical system noise?

A purely architectural issue but in terms of keeping the cross aisle clear and sightlines it seems like it would make more sense to move the floor level seats just behind the cross aisle to the front of the cross aisle and have the first seats behind the aisle elevated so they can see over people using the cross aisle.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 03, 2013, 07:10:36 am
"The risers being covered, was a simple aiming correction on the drawing.  It was changed by accident when i was copying the models over.  It has been corrected.  Please see the attached file.  Please note, the front of the seating area on the floor doesn't look as well covered, but this mapping doesn't reflect the stage fills adding sound to the front chairs."

What do you guys think now?

As with Brad's comments, your design team knows more about the whole project than we do.
That said:
The color legend for SPL is different for the two frequencies shown.  It needs to be kept constant in order for you to derive more easily understood differences in SPL at various frequencies. 
Even with the coverage angle being changed it is my opinion that you will not have even coverage all the way to the back row.  It is my opinion that, were you to plot half octave centers from 100Hz to 16kHz you would be able to see a progressively increasing directionality as frequency increases.  This will cause a drop in coverage at the frequency ranges required for good intelligibility of English language.  This will be a problem not only in the areas indicated in the on axis plot of the speaker arrays but, as was mentioned in another post, it will be problematic for an even larger area off axis.  In my opinion you don't have enough coverage from the line array design and you either need additional cabinets in the arrays, you need delay fill speakers for the upper tier or you need to rethink the design to point source.

Lee
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 03, 2013, 01:44:04 pm
As with Brad's comments, your design team knows more about the whole project than we do.
That said:
The color legend for SPL is different for the two frequencies shown.  It needs to be kept constant in order for you to derive more easily understood differences in SPL at various frequencies. 
Even with the coverage angle being changed it is my opinion that you will not have even coverage all the way to the back row.  It is my opinion that, were you to plot half octave centers from 100Hz to 16kHz you would be able to see a progressively increasing directionality as frequency increases.  This will cause a drop in coverage at the frequency ranges required for good intelligibility of English language.  This will be a problem not only in the areas indicated in the on axis plot of the speaker arrays but, as was mentioned in another post, it will be problematic for an even larger area off axis.  In my opinion you don't have enough coverage from the line array design and you either need additional cabinets in the arrays, you need delay fill speakers for the upper tier or you need to rethink the design to point source.

Lee
Here's the rest of the frequencies. I have talked with another designer who has access to our building CAD files (AV director at one of the biggest churches in the US)..and he didn't seem to think we would have trouble reaching the back rows.

His issue though was adding real subs to the system since the 4883 are merely a LF extender to the top cabs.
Title: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: ThomasKielhofner on April 03, 2013, 02:09:38 pm
Here's the rest of the frequencies. I have talked with another designer who has access to our building CAD files (AV director at one of the biggest churches in the US)..and he didn't seem to think we would have trouble reaching the back rows.

His issue though was adding real subs to the system since the 4883 are merely a LF extender to the top cabs.

It's already been said, but these additional pictures confirm it. You either need a couple more 4886 boxes a side, or a different design. 8 boxes a side can't evenly cover that space.

Another possible issue is how they plan on using the 5 macro techs to power the main system. From what I can tell they would pretty much be stuck using three of them in stereo for the 6 subs (they're 4 ohms per box with the drivers wired in parallel), and the remaining two on the 4886s (4 per channel). That doesn't give you much flexibility to shade/tune the rig with only 2 zones per hang.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 03, 2013, 07:20:20 pm
I got to run something else by everyone.

Right now it's:
16 x 4886 (FR: 75 Hz - 18kHz)
8  x  4883 (40 Hz - 300 Hz)

I know that alone WON'T get me the "punch" I am looking for in the kick/bass heavy music. I got a recommendation to add 4 x S28 from the VTX line (FR 27-300 Hz). That seems like overkill to me (at least cost wise).

Would it work just to have:
16 x 4886
4  x S28

http://www.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductAttachments/JBL_VT4886_v3.pdf

http://www.jblpro.com/products/tour/vtx/specs.html
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 04, 2013, 06:57:54 am
I got to run something else by everyone.

Right now it's:
16 x 4886 (FR: 75 Hz - 18kHz)
8  x  4883 (40 Hz - 300 Hz)

I know that alone get me the "punch" I am looking for in the kick/bass heavy music. I got a recommendation to add 4 x S28 from the VTX line (FR 27-300 Hz). That seems like overkill to me (at least cost wise).

Would it work just to have:
16 x 4886
4  x S28

http://www.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductAttachments/JBL_VT4886_v3.pdf

http://www.jblpro.com/products/tour/vtx/specs.html

I may have missed it but:
What musical style?
What instrumentation?
What anticipated SPL need?

The 4886 is a cute little box but it is little.   It may get loud enough for your needs but may not actually move enough air to provide the sound quality and punch that is expected.  The problem with this is that the typical response to this problem is to just urn it up when the real problem is moving enough air to have impact.  In a 1000 plus seat space, if looking for rock show/Christian contemporary music style needs, it is my experience that 10" bass drivers are the minimum that can typically be successful for your main cabinets.  Sometimes it's possible to push this to 8", especially if you go 5 way rather than 4 way as long as you keep your bass modules as LF extension of the arrays placed at te arrays.

My experience, YMMV.

Lee

Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Brad Weber on April 04, 2013, 07:32:50 am
Here's the rest of the frequencies. I have talked with another designer who has access to our building CAD files (AV director at one of the biggest churches in the US)..and he didn't seem to think we would have trouble reaching the back rows.
Those plots may be a good starting place but they only show the vertical coverage on axis of the arrays in an infinite space.  What happens to the coverage when you factor in both the horizontal and vertical patterns as well as the physical space?  The variations in overall level and/or response throughout the entire seating in the space may be greater than is shown in the plots provided.  In fact simply toeing the arrays in to perhaps better cover the seating in plan view would change the resulting on-axis vertical section.

I got to run something else by everyone.

Right now it's:
16 x 4886 (FR: 75 Hz - 18kHz)
8  x  4883 (40 Hz - 300 Hz)

I know that alone get me the "punch" I am looking for in the kick/bass heavy music. I got a recommendation to add 4 x S28 from the VTX line (FR 27-300 Hz). That seems like overkill to me (at least cost wise).

Would it work just to have:
16 x 4886
4  x S28

http://www.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductAttachments/JBL_VT4886_v3.pdf (http://www.jblpro.com/BackOffice/ProductAttachments/JBL_VT4886_v3.pdf)

http://www.jblpro.com/products/tour/vtx/specs.html (http://www.jblpro.com/products/tour/vtx/specs.html)
Any chance the original three VT4883 per side were intended to be used in a cardioid configuration?  Have you looked at the rigging hardware required to fly the VT4886 with the VTX-S28?  You've gone from the original three dual 8 Ohm boxes per side to four dual 8 Ohm boxes per side, have you looked at the associated amplification and sensitivities to see just how much more output you'd actually expect to get with this approach?  Just trying to understand what you are actually proposing and what you are trying to achieve.

I believe that a struggle here is commenting on the system without having any defined specific goals or results combined with a hesitancy to contradict the work of an unidentified system designer that is apparently already involved in the project.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on April 04, 2013, 08:22:03 am
Those plots may be a good starting place but they only show the vertical coverage on axis of the arrays in an infinite space.  What happens to the coverage when you factor in both the horizontal and vertical patterns as well as the physical space? 

Similarly, I would ask the AV installer for 3-D plots, ie. EASE maps.  If they can't produce these for you, I would start to doubt their chops in the install business.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 04, 2013, 01:44:10 pm
That section and the coverage shown in the array software seem to only address on axis of the two arrays but what happens off axis?  Did the system designer do any prediction beyond the on-axis vertical coverage shown?  And did they look at any frequencies other than 500Hz and 1kHz?  It would be interesting to see how well each array covers the entire seating if the system is stereo and how much combiltering and power alley you might get for mono sources as well as things like the resulting intelligibility.

Will the EASE model show all this? They did do the higher frequencies that I posted in one of the follow up posts above.

I don't know what the ceiling material is but does the system designer expect any issues from the distance the LF boxes are from the ceiling?

I will check on this.

Has anyone verified that the AC15 front fills can physically fit in the locations shown?  Unless the speakers actually sit exposed on top of the steps you are probably going to need some type of enclosure that is larger than the speaker while also having to work within the step height.  And which plan is correct, the seven stage fill locations shown on the speaker plan seem to not work with the Platform front shown on the overall floor plan (the center location is bumped out while the two extreme side speakers would appear to be aimed at the walls).

The front steps are straight. That bump has been taken out.

Speaking of steps, any access to the platform seems to involve four steps.  ADA access is not a requirement but not having one or more ramp access paths to the Platform could prevent limiting the potential use of the space and make getting things on and off the Platform easier.

I mentioned this to the building coordinator and they had to cut the ramp to avoid the higher cost.

Are you planning on all the amplifiers and processing being located at FOH?  It would seem to make sense to have an amp room closer to the speakers.

I will check on this. My understanding is the electrical room is where the amplifiers will be located

Is anybody addressing acoustics and not just room finishes but also aspects such as room shaping and dimensions, sound isolation and mechanical system noise?

The architect and the designer have been in communication to address those issues.

A purely architectural issue but in terms of keeping the cross aisle clear and sightlines it seems like it would make more sense to move the floor level seats just behind the cross aisle to the front of the cross aisle and have the first seats behind the aisle elevated so they can see over people using the cross aisle.

I don't think the seating/sections have been finalized, so I will pass this information along
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 04, 2013, 01:54:05 pm
Another possible issue is how they plan on using the 5 macro techs to power the main system. From what I can tell they would pretty much be stuck using three of them in stereo for the 6 subs (they're 4 ohms per box with the drivers wired in parallel), and the remaining two on the 4886s (4 per channel). That doesn't give you much flexibility to shade/tune the rig with only 2 zones per hang.
2 Amps For 6 Lf Extenders (L/R)
1 Amp For Top 3 Array Boxes L/R
1 Amp For Center 3 Boxes L/R
1 Amp For Bottom 2 Boxes L/R

I may have missed it but:
What musical style?
What instrumentation?
What anticipated SPL need?
The 4886 is a cute little box but it is little.   It may get loud enough for your needs but may not actually move enough air to provide the sound quality and punch that is expected.  The problem with this is that the typical response to this problem is to just urn it up when the real problem is moving enough air to have impact.
It's christian rock music like you mentioned. I don't know the exact SPL needs though. Not concert loud..but enough to get you moving. :-)
Kick, bass guitar, couple of electric, acoustic, keyboards etc.

Any chance the original three VT4883 per side were intended to be used in a cardioid configuration?
"In the initial design there were (5) macrotechs total powering the 4886s and 4883s.  The low frequency extenders (4883s) were connected in a cardioid design."

Similarly, I would ask the AV installer for 3-D plots, ie. EASE maps.  If they can't produce these for you, I would start to doubt their chops in the install business.
He will give me the EASE models by next week. Not sure if it's the right way to do it but here's their reasoning:
"Due to the timelines expressed to us, we have been trying to work to finalize all of the necessary details for everything the church needs installed in the project (fine tuning the details of equipment/functionality) therefore, since we knew the hanging points from the Sound Mapping and JBL Calculations, finishing the design/EASE model was pushed back to try not to hold up the project and occupancy date."
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Adam Robinson on April 04, 2013, 03:36:20 pm
Here's the rest of the frequencies. I have talked with another designer who has access to our building CAD files (AV director at one of the biggest churches in the US)..and he didn't seem to think we would have trouble reaching the back rows.

His issue though was adding real subs to the system since the 4883 are merely a LF extender to the top cabs.

What's with the massive gap between the 3rd and 4th box?  I entered your approximate dimensions (gathered from looking at the LAC drawings) and was able to get a much smoother response in my calculations.  I will still agree that you're definitely looking at an array that's too small.  I got it looking pretty decent with 3 4883 over 12 4886 (and had the ability to hit closer seats with the array).  I also got it looking not to terrible with just 6 VTX. 

And I'd personally add a few ground subs.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 04, 2013, 05:58:25 pm
What's with the massive gap between the 3rd and 4th box?  I entered your approximate dimensions (gathered from looking at the LAC drawings) and was able to get a much smoother response in my calculations.  I will still agree that you're definitely looking at an array that's too small.  I got it looking pretty decent with 3 4883 over 12 4886 (and had the ability to hit closer seats with the array).  I also got it looking not to terrible with just 6 VTX. 

And I'd personally add a few ground subs.
I went up a pair on the tops, took away a pair of the LF extensions and instead added 3 dual 18" S28 vtx series subs. so now it's:

L - R
9 + 9 = 4886 (powered by 3 MA-12000i)
2 + 2 = 4883 (powered by 2 MA-12000i)
..3... = S28 dual 18" hung in the middle (powered by 3 MA-12000i)

I am going to see how the EASE model looks with the changes and post it when I get that next week.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Mac Kerr on April 04, 2013, 07:25:13 pm
I went up a pair on the tops, took away a pair of the LF extensions and instead added 3 dual 18" S28 vtx series subs. so now it's:

L - R
9 + 9 = 4886 (powered by 3 MA-12000i)
2 + 2 = 4883 (powered by 2 MA-12000i)
..3... = S28 dual 18" hung in the middle (powered by 3 MA-12000i)

I am going to see how the EASE model looks with the changes and post it when I get that next week.

Isn't there a designer responsible for this? If you are going to redesign the system to fit your or anyone else's idea why not go all the way and put different speakers in there?

I admit I originally misread the numbers and though it was 4888 not 4886. Try 6 4888 and see what happens. Or try d&b V8s and V12s, or L'Acoustic Karas. The d&b array design software is easy to use and free, Soundvision from L'Acoustic is great array design software, but it's neither free nor easy to use. L'Acoustic has recently released data for EASE.

Mac
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 04, 2013, 08:10:28 pm
Isn't there a designer responsible for this?
And just to add-Who is going to be responsible for the performance of the system?  The designer or someone who got advice off the internet?

It is one thing to get advice about things like consoles and mics-but they don't affect how well a system works-or covers a room.

The loudspeaker system is the single biggest thing that affects how well the job "turns out'.  There are lots of "variables" involved-that are not always evident to the casual observer.

It does seem odd (to me anyway) that only one model loudspeaker is being looked at/or considered.

And has been brought up several times-a simple 2D plot does little to provide useful information regarding actual coverage.

A proper coverage plot should be one of the first things that should be done on a job.  Knowing the proper coverage (and loudspeakers required to do so) can greatly affect to cost of the job.

What if it is discovered later that more loudspeakers are needed to cover the room-where is that money going to come from?  Are other parts of the project going to be cut?  Smaller console?  No wireless and so forth.

Knowing the proper loudspeaker design to begin with is a very important start.

And as others have suggested-why is a line array "apparently" the only option for such a small room?  If money is a concern-there are less expensive options available with a different design.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Brad Weber on April 05, 2013, 06:43:06 am
Isn't there a designer responsible for this? If you are going to redesign the system to fit your or anyone else's idea why not go all the way and put different speakers in there?
And just to add-Who is going to be responsible for the performance of the system?  The designer or someone who got advice off the internet?
It's not a technical issue but I think it is not real clear what role the designer is playing and while you described your services in general terms, it is also not clear what goals or criteria may have been determined by them versus defined to them.  Who decided on two line arrays, was that completely the designer's decision or was it defined to them?  Are the specific products involved something that came out after assessing different options, something the church defined/requested or a result of the designer being a Harman dealer?  How was any budget defined, was a conceptual design developed and priced or was a budget set prior to any design or even any Needs Analysis?  It's not an issue of  questioning what has already occurred but rather understanding how you got to this point, any specific goals or criteria that were defined in that process, what options are practical and the role of the designer.  For example, if the church specifically requested two line arrays or the product options are for some reason limited to Harman then that would be good to know since it could affect suggesting anything else.

He will give me the EASE models by next week. Not sure if it's the right way to do it but here's their reasoning:
"Due to the timelines expressed to us, we have been trying to work to finalize all of the necessary details for everything the church needs installed in the project (fine tuning the details of equipment/functionality) therefore, since we knew the hanging points from the Sound Mapping and JBL Calculations, finishing the design/EASE model was pushed back to try not to hold up the project and occupancy date."
I could be wrong but I would guess that this is design/build and the designer is wanting to get a contract for the system equipment and installation in place before investing in the time to prepare an EASE model.  That is understandable if they are not being contracted separately for design services.  However, you then seem to be using EASE to tweak the solution already defined rather than using it to help define what may be the most appropriate solution in the first place.  More how to best apply what you already have than determining what would be best to have.

I will check on this. My understanding is the electrical room is where the amplifiers will be located
Makes sense but from experience I would make sure everyone understands that as not only may multiple parties (Electrical Engineer, lighting designer, AV designer and possibly others) all be vying for that space for their gear but the EE may see an "Electrical Room" as their space with it possibly being used by others if there is any space left after accounting for their equipment and the associated required clearances.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 08, 2013, 11:02:05 pm
It's not a technical issue but I think it is not real clear what role the designer is playing and while you described your services in general terms, it is also not clear what goals or criteria may have been determined by them versus defined to them.  Who decided on two line arrays, was that completely the designer's decision or was it defined to them?  Are the specific products involved something that came out after assessing different options, something the church defined/requested or a result of the designer being a Harman dealer?  How was any budget defined, was a conceptual design developed and priced or was a budget set prior to any design or even any Needs Analysis?  It's not an issue of  questioning what has already occurred but rather understanding how you got to this point, any specific goals or criteria that were defined in that process, what options are practical and the role of the designer.  For example, if the church specifically requested two line arrays or the product options are for some reason limited to Harman then that would be good to know since it could affect suggesting anything else.
I could be wrong but I would guess that this is design/build and the designer is wanting to get a contract for the system equipment and installation in place before investing in the time to prepare an EASE model.  That is understandable if they are not being contracted separately for design services.  However, you then seem to be using EASE to tweak the solution already defined rather than using it to help define what may be the most appropriate solution in the first place.  More how to best apply what you already have than determining what would be best to have.
So the story is that we had a really good designer who started working with the architect etc and we were very confident in his abilities. Unfortunately his wife got VERY sick and he had to abort the project. He was the one that recommended the JBLs. So when we found the 2nd designer, we said we got a recommendation to go with the vertecs and honestly we probably shouldn't have said that.

As for the 2nd part of your post, officially we hadn't signed with the 2nd designer (at least on paper) but it was common understanding we were going to go with them for install also. But you're right about their reluctance to give us the EASE model without the official signature.

Here's the EASE model btw which I just got:
"Attached is a rendering of the main sanctuary with 9 VT4886 Boxes between 1kHz and 4kHz.  More to come, but this is a starting point so you can see the even coverage."

Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Chris Johnson [UK] on April 09, 2013, 04:23:25 am
I've been following this thread - I think its always interesting to see the responses to this kind of design problem. I deal with systems like this all the time, and so its always interesting to see how others approach it.

I would say a few things.

1) Apologies if this is already asked and answered, but I presume your designer knows his work is being posted on a public forum? If it were me, I would make sure I retained IP for all design documents until paid for in full at the very least, and may not want them posted on the internet.

2) There is nothing inherently wrong with vertec. There is plenty of good PA in the world, and I've worked with Vertec systems that sound great, even if my first choice might be something else.

3) You need to understand that just like in the real world, all of us on these forums have our own reasons for pushing our favorite solutions and that they may or may not be relevant to you. Take everything here with a grain of salt. There are plenty of intelligent and helpful people here, but as a matter of diligence, don't take anything at face value. Work with your designer to achieve your desired results.

4) There are many solutions to this problem. Lots of combinations of boxes, amps, rigging plots, etc.. will give you a system that meets your design criteria. You are not searching for the 1 solution out of millions of options that will work - you are trying to ensure, your specification for end results is met.

--------------

That aside, my thoughts on the system are:

-Rooms like this are challenging because they call for progressively narrower dispersion towards the back as the room curves in on itself. If you go with a line array product, I'd be leaning toward a product that can give you boxes with multiple patterns in the same array. Like d&b V series.

-Even though you certainly could manage without delays, you will end up putting a lot of energy on the side walls by trying to do so. I'd have delays just to improve speech intelligibility for the back rows, and to avoid having to excite the back and side walls as much.

-I wouldn't fly subs left and right if possible. Just like with ground stacks, you'll get lots of comb filtering, and a power-alley effect. A flown central sub cluster (thats ideally directional) would give you smoother coverage.

Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 09, 2013, 08:11:10 am


Here's the EASE model btw which I just got:
"Attached is a rendering of the main sanctuary with 9 VT4886 Boxes between 1kHz and 4kHz.  More to come, but this is a starting point so you can see the even coverage."
Not be "nitpicking" but when you average a wide band of freq (in this case 2 octaves), I would HOPE it looks pretty smooth. The wider the freq range of freq-no interference-wide areas of "plots" can really change how things "look". 

But each designer has their own way of doing things.  Just make sure that all ideas are held to the same standard.

It is not uncommon to see what looks like a really smooth plot win out over a much rougher one-because of the way it was presented-yet the "rougher one" is actually smoother-once the system gets installed.

There are all kinds of tools in EASE to make a response look smooth.  I would ask for much narrower slices of response (say no more than 1 octave) and multiple plots.  For starters I like to see 500, 2K and 8 K.  4K is another I commonly look at first.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Brad Weber on April 09, 2013, 09:04:49 am
Here's the EASE model btw which I just got:
"Attached is a rendering of the main sanctuary with 9 VT4886 Boxes between 1kHz and 4kHz.  More to come, but this is a starting point so you can see the even coverage."
First, sorry to hear that happened with your original designer, I've been through similar situations and understand they can be challenging for all involved.

Ivan beat me to it but I have to say that what the model shows is not what I expected and that may be a matter of understanding what is presented.  EASE allows adjusting various settings and parameters to look at different things, which can be very useful but can also provide different results based on those settings, thus a few clarifications on the results shown may help us all better understand what they represent.

The first thing I noted is that the model appears to be showing the coverage of both arrays at once as though it is a mono system.  Is that what is intended or is the system to be a two channel system and thus should probably address the coverage of each array independently as well as looking at the results for mono sources?

Related to that, as Ivan mentioned, with both arrays having a wide horizontal pattern then with both on I would expect the prediction to show interaction where the coverage of the arrays overlaps.  The apparent absence of any such interaction may be factor of the results being averaged over multiple frequencies and/or interference not being turned on, but that may also not be an accurate representation of the resulting real world performance.

Just to be clear, I am not questioning what was done or the system proposed, but I believe that a critical aspect of predictive modeling or any analysis is trying to understand results that vary from what you expected in order to improve the analysis and/or increase your understanding.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 11, 2013, 04:13:10 pm
Here's 2K for 8 boxes OR 9 boxes.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ed Walters on April 11, 2013, 05:00:48 pm
Here's 2K for 8 boxes OR 9 boxes.
There is no way on earth the ACTUAL response can look this smooth at 2k with two sets of speakers running. You are being misled, through manipulation of the data/smoothing/etc. There will be comb filtering EVERYWHERE at 2k with two widely separated sources. That is simply the physics of sound, and cannot be overcome.  I've been watching this thread, and you've heard some good advice. It is time to ask for a demo.....walk the room with two line arrays pushing mono pink noise, and it will all become clear.....

Ed Walters
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on April 11, 2013, 05:19:18 pm
There is no way on earth the ACTUAL response can look this smooth at 2k with two sets of speakers running. You are being misled, through manipulation of the data/smoothing/etc. There will be comb filtering EVERYWHERE at 2k with two widely separated sources. That is simply the physics of sound, and cannot be overcome.  I've been watching this thread, and you've heard some good advice. It is time to ask for a demo.....walk the room with two line arrays pushing mono pink noise, and it will all become clear.....

Ed Walters
Ok.

I mean I know I am on a prosound forum..but I am not an expert at any of this. So what can I ask the designer to further investigate what's going on?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on April 11, 2013, 05:22:33 pm
Ok.

I mean I know I am on a prosound forum..but I am not an expert at any of this. So what can I ask the designer to further investigate what's going on?

As he said:

Ask for a demo.  Demand sonic proof.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 11, 2013, 06:37:42 pm
As he said:

Ask for a demo.  Demand sonic proof.
And during the demo-be sure to WALK the room and LISTEN.  Be sure to go to the extremes-sides-front-back etc.

Remember that a lot of people sit in those spots as well.

While in the middle of the room-listen to just ONE of the arrays-and then have the other one turned on. and hear the difference.

If the demo is only with a single array-then that is NOT representative of what the actual install will be.  That is part of the problem with two loudspeakers covering the same area.

You should be listening to as few loudspeakers as possible.  More IS NOT better in the loudspeaker world.

When I design-I try to start with a  single loudspeaker (if possible) to try to cover the room.  And try not have as little overlap as possible.

Something else you might as the "designer".  Are they willing to guarantee the coverage?  Will they guarantee any "performance" scores-Alcons-STIPA-coverage etc?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 11, 2013, 06:55:32 pm
Ok.

I mean I know I am on a prosound forum..but I am not an expert at any of this. So what can I ask the designer to further investigate what's going on?
You could print out some of the concerns that have been expressed in this thread-and show them to the designer and see what response they have.

While this can be an awkard approach-it might give some insight-one way or the other.

But the bottom line is-If the designer is willing to stand behind the design and "make it right" if it doesn't work-then you have nothing to lose.  Of course actually "making that happen" is not always easy.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 11, 2013, 07:12:55 pm
There is no way on earth the ACTUAL response can look this smooth at 2k with two sets of speakers running. You are being misled, through manipulation of the data/smoothing/etc. There will be comb filtering EVERYWHERE at 2k with two widely separated sources. That is simply the physics of sound, and cannot be overcome.  I've been watching this thread, and you've heard some good advice. It is time to ask for a demo.....walk the room with two line arrays pushing mono pink noise, and it will all become clear.....

Ed Walters

+1

Be SURE to listen using pink noise.  It reveals things you may miss using music.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 12, 2013, 09:02:55 am
Ok.

I mean I know I am on a prosound forum..but I am not an expert at any of this. So what can I ask the designer to further investigate what's going on?
Just one more thought-if the "idea" of the system is "stereo", then each side of the PA HAS to cover the entire room-BY ITSELF or people will not hear information that is panned to the side.

So ask to see a model with just ONE cluster on (as if the signal is panned to the left or right).

If you get a demo-listen to just ONE side and see if it covers the room.

Just because you see a particular setup all the time does NOT mean that it is correct or will do a good job.

This is not a "particular loudspeaker model" type of thing-but rather a basic design issue.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Mark McFarlane on April 12, 2013, 09:31:50 am
As he said:

Ask for a demo.  Demand sonic proof.

Curiously, is it reasonable/customary to ask a vendor to provide a demo in your space of a 9 box hang per side? It seems like a lot to ask for.  How frequent is this type of request made?  Brad? Ivan?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 12, 2013, 01:18:10 pm
Curiously, is it reasonable/customary to ask a vendor to provide a demo in your space of a 9 box hang per side? It seems like a lot to ask for.  How frequent is this type of request made?  Brad? Ivan?
Typically a "demo" is just the major part of a system-not an entire system.  Because that is practically an install.

HOWEVER-if there are some "questionable" aspects-then those need to be addressed.  Such as having 2 sources covering the same area.

And it doesn't do any good to bring in 2 line array elements-what does that prove?  But if a a point source design was used and that single point (or combination of boxes) would cover most of the room (as it should), then the little fill areas are not worried about.

That is where good modeling comes in (and not models that have been turned into something "pretty") but rather models that show more of what is really going on.

When I do models-I look at a wide range of freq-different amounts of smoothing and so forth-to come up with what I feel is a reasonable expectation in the room.

This is a combination of experience-the model and "intuition". 

Here is a story that was a "lesson learned".  We were contracted to do a consultant designed job-and I wanted to substitute a different system that I felt would do the customer a better job.  So I brought in a system that would fill about 80% of the room.  The room was pretty live.  So we did a side by side with just ONE of the cabinets in the original design ( a 30x30 cabinet). 

The customer listened to both system and walked around the room.

When they started talking I realized where I had screwed up.  They said "Your system sound a lot better and covers a lot more of the seats-but we feel the original system offer a little bit better clarity when you are in front of it."

WELL DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!  A large narrow horn simply wasn't energizing as much of the room as I was-yet it would a goo d number of those cabinets to actually do the job.

We were not comparing apples to apples.  If I had only turned on one of the cabinets in my cluster, I think the job would have gone the other way-but I was trying to prove something, while they were listening to something different.

And that was not the only time I "lost" a demo because the customer was looking for a "particular" thing out fo the system-no matter how impractical or unrealistic it may be in the "grand scope of things".

So as usual-it depends-------------------
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Brad Weber on April 12, 2013, 02:45:51 pm
Curiously, is it reasonable/customary to ask a vendor to provide a demo in your space of a 9 box hang per side? It seems like a lot to ask for.  How frequent is this type of request made?  Brad? Ivan?
This is where line arrays pose a bit more of a challenge as any differences in the configuration can affect the results, thus to hear how what is proposed might work in your or a similar space you almost have to mock up what is actually being proposed in terms of not just the product models but also the hang points, the number of boxes and the angles between them, the array processing, etc.

For a big project this might not be an excessive request at all, although if the space does not exist then you may have to find some other similar space to use for the demos.  It may also depend on the situation.  If the vendor knows they have the project as long as the demo is successful or if it is a vendor that has the project demoing multiple options then they may be better able to justify or recover the associated costs.  If it is three or four vendors with competing products and one will be selected then they may each have to assess the potential cost/benefit and decide, especially if there is any known bias to one product or if the decision will also be greatly bid cost influenced.  If it is simply "Hey, come show us this system" then I would not expect that much effort to be invested.

Another option is that they may suggest a similar system already installed in the area.  How well you can relate what that situation and what you hear to your application depends on your experience but it can often be very useful for getting a better fell for many aspects of the proposed system.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 05, 2013, 01:43:14 pm
UPDATE:
Hi everyone. Just wanted to give an update on this project. We are officially a month into having services at the new facility. We are still working through some challenges. The main thing is we need to do some acoustical treatment. There's a 4-5 sec flutter/slap back echo in the back. So the mix sounds a little muddy..vocals are not intelligible during louder songs. I know we should have done this earlier in the project but some unfortunate things happened like our main designer having to leave the project due to illness with his wife etc.

I contact some companies in the Houston area. HPF acoustical, CTSI, Russ Berger, and Bai from Austin. Does anyone have any other recommendations?

I will post pictures of the install later today after I swing by the church.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 05, 2013, 01:51:14 pm
UPDATE:
Hi everyone. Just wanted to give an update on this project. We are officially a month into having services at the new facility. We are still working through some challenges. The main thing is we need to do some acoustical treatment. There's a 4-5 sec flutter/slap back echo in the back.

This should not be happening if the proper speakers have been installed in the proper manner.  I suspect that trying to remedy at this point  solely with room treatment is a "band-aid" approach.

If there is that much sonic energy hitting the back walls, there's something wrong with the speaker deployment.

Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 05, 2013, 01:58:09 pm
This should not be happening if the proper speakers have been installed in the proper manner.  I suspect that trying to remedy at this point  solely with room treatment is a "band-aid" approach.

If there is that much sonic energy hitting the back walls, there's something wrong with the speaker deployment.
That 4-5 is with no speakers turned on...just clap once..and you can hear it.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 05, 2013, 02:11:45 pm
That 4-5 is with no speakers turned on...just clap once..and you can hear it.

You are doomed...
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 06, 2013, 01:09:06 am
(http://i.imgur.com/o8BqSIt.jpg) (http://imgur.com/o8BqSIt)

Panorama:
(http://i.imgur.com/Yd1ZmPP.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Yd1ZmPP)
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 06, 2013, 05:27:51 pm
 ...
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 06, 2013, 07:54:08 pm
Damn,  there are so many things that don't make sense in those pictures.
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 07, 2013, 12:27:23 am
Damn,  there are so many things that don't make sense in those pictures.
like..
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 07, 2013, 08:13:22 am
(http://i.imgur.com/o8BqSIt.jpg) (http://imgur.com/o8BqSIt)

Panorama:
(http://i.imgur.com/Yd1ZmPP.jpg) (http://imgur.com/Yd1ZmPP)
So what seats are the lines on the sides "supposed" to be covering?  Are there people sitting IN the walls?  That is where it looks like they are pointed.

Or maybe it is just a few seats-but which ones? Certainly not the ones down front.

I would love to hear the "design" thought on that one.

However we all it doesn't really matter-because somebody GOT A LINE ARRAY and that is all that matters.  Not that it is the proper tool for the job or that they were spending somebody elses money-but they got a line array.

Not to sound spiteful or anything-but recently we were not even allowed to bring in a demo system to a large job-because it was not a "line array" ,and only "line arrays" were allowed to be demoed. 

Even though our proposed system showed better coverage-cost much less-was easier to service and so forth.  But the "audio guy" just HAD to have a line array.  It's amazing how easy some people are to please-------------------------

Sorry to rant
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on December 07, 2013, 10:50:26 am
What is the large black cluster in the middle? Is it part of the sound system?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 07, 2013, 11:33:09 am
What is the large black cluster in the middle? Is it part of the sound system?
I would "assume" that is the speaker system.  The ones on the sides are just there to generate interference-I guess-------and to make profit for the installer.

There is NO WAY they could be used for what somebody might "think" is stereo.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 07, 2013, 11:38:20 am
----and to make profit for the installer.


When I took a refresher SMAART class a few years ago there were a couple of quiet guys in the back.  When practical applications came up on day 3, they had lots of questions about aligning balcony fill with mains... but the really fun part was when they asked about aligning balcony SUBS (under the balcony seating).  The room got quiet and finally someone asked "who did the design/install?"  They named a company most of us have taken to calling "Fraud" because of their propensity to over-spec speakers and create more problems than they solve.  I think these gentlemen figured out their church had been over-sold.
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Scott Hofmann on December 07, 2013, 01:56:36 pm
Please don't tell me all the ceiling lighting fixtures are fluorescent.
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 07, 2013, 03:04:23 pm
I thought I posted the design on the first page but I will post it again.

It's L/R mains with subs in the middle. They are not pointed outward. Might be the picture. The lighting is incandescent.

Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 07, 2013, 03:29:48 pm
I thought I posted the design on the first page but I will post it again.

It's L/R mains with subs in the middle. They are not pointed outward. Might be the picture. The lighting is incandescent.
How does the left cluster cover the seats down front on the right-and vice versa?
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 07, 2013, 03:52:03 pm
How does the left cluster cover the seats down front on the right-and vice versa?

Ivan...

A miracle, perhaps?

I'm not an unsympathetic person, but it does seem like a certain amount of "buying the hype" is occurring here.  And as you state, this is likely more common than not.  It would appear that the installer either acceded to the clients desired concept or actually took advantage of a gullible group to turn more of a profit regardless of performance.

Maybe this is the first of the three systems you see organizations purchasing...
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 07, 2013, 10:56:36 pm
Probably a little late to swap all this out..so just for discussion purposes...what would you guys have proposed instead?

This is some of my convo with the installer after I asked about concerns raised in this thread while back before the install:

Quote
Me: Is the data being smoothed out or manipulated in any other way? It almost looks too good to be true...I expected to see a lot of comb filtering at 2K with two widely separated boxes.

Installer: The EASE model is generated with all of JBLs in house engineers providing the proper information and programming for the EASE program to perform the calculations.  All of the material and surfaces in the room were discussed before the model was designed.  It is as accurate as it can be.  The fact that it is a smooth rendering is a factor of the speaker being properly fitted and adjusted to the room.  Either way, the room has phenomenal coverage true across the board.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 07, 2013, 11:05:37 pm
Probably a little late to swap all this out..so just for discussion purposes...what would you guys have proposed instead?

This is some of my convo with the installer after I asked about concerns raised in this thread while back before the install:
It is quite easy to change the way EASE is displayed.  Even a bad system can be made to "appear" to have very even coverage.

I would have gone with a mono system with a center cluster (or single speaker) with a fill off to the left and right for the seats down front.

This is especially important (less sources of sound) for a room that has a high reverb time.

The clearer the source is-the more intelligible it will be for the listener.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 07, 2013, 11:18:14 pm
It is quite easy to change the way EASE is displayed.  Even a bad system can be made to "appear" to have very even coverage.

I would have gone with a mono system with a center cluster (or single speaker) with a fill off to the left and right for the seats down front.

This is especially important (less sources of sound) for a room that has a high reverb time.

The clearer the source is-the more intelligible it will be for the listener.

Indeed.

JP:

Does the double-hang result from a congregational desire for a "stereo system"?  If so, the installer is guilty of supplying what was asked for rather than what would be correct...
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on December 07, 2013, 11:36:15 pm
I thought I posted the design on the first page but I will post it again.

It's L/R mains with subs in the middle. They are not pointed outward. Might be the picture. The lighting is incandescent.

Where are the subs in this picture?
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Chris Hindle on December 07, 2013, 11:51:47 pm
Where are the subs in this picture?
Unfortunately, the subs are center hung. Right where I would have put the main PA (mono) hang.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 08, 2013, 12:05:24 am
Indeed.

JP: Does the double-hang result from a congregational desire for a "stereo system"?  If so, the installer is guilty of supplying what was asked for rather than what would be correct...
Dick, you are right..everyone including me wanted a stereo system but I wouldn't have asked for it if it was not a viable option. Meaning, I repeatedly asked if it it would work for this room since it's wider than it is long. I was assured it wouldn't be an issue (i.e. as seen in the email above).

The center cluster design just seems so obvious.  >:(

I will get some concrete opinion next week from an audio "professional". I will keep yall posted.
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 08, 2013, 07:50:32 am
I was also going to say a center cluster or exploded center cluster design....

Also, and maybe I am alone here, the PA is visually out of proportion to the stage.  While the way it sounds is very important, the aesthetics, in a church, should be equally important.   In one picture the subs partially block the view of the stonework around the cross, that would be unacceptable to me.
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 08, 2013, 09:38:48 am
  In one picture the subs partially block the view of the stonework around the cross, that would be unacceptable to me.
And also for most Churches.

When designing a system-one of first questions I ask are-are there any visual restrictions to be concerned with?

But it comes down to what is "most important".  And sadly I have seen quite a few places that the MOST IMPORTANT thing is to have a "line array".  Everything else be damned.

I guess having a long column of speakers is some peoples way of making up for their own lack of -----------------.

Why does having a "line array" somehow make people feel good?  Shouldn't the overall sound be most important-rather than what the speakers look like?

In most installs the goal is to have the speaker disappear as much as possible-except in line array installs in which they try to show them off as much as possible.

But it comes down to who is driving the project and their "desires".
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 08, 2013, 09:47:39 am
Dick, you are right..everyone including me wanted a stereo system but I wouldn't have asked for it if it was not a viable option. Meaning, I repeatedly asked if it it would work for this room since it's wider than it is long. I was assured it wouldn't be an issue (i.e. as seen in the email above).

The center cluster design just seems so obvious.  >:(

I will get some concrete opinion next week from an audio "professional". I will keep yall posted.

You are getting advice from audio professionals. 

It's really difficult for me to not be critical of whoever nodded, smiled and said, "You want stereo?  Sure, no problem!"  I translate that as, "I could care less that it is unworkable and I'm going to be able to sell you twice as much gear."

You and your congregational family would seem to have been sold a bill of goods...but sold the one you asked for.

It's not a good situation except for the wallet of your consultants.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on December 08, 2013, 10:21:35 am

It's not a good situation except for the wallet of your consultants.

Rereading the first post, there was no consultant on this job. It was a design build firm. Who make money off of the volume of product that is installed. 

"Most" real consultants don't make money from specing one product over another. Thats why unbiased specs typically have multiple acceptable products

Rereading the second post tim says...Your going to have slap back off that back wall...

Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 08, 2013, 10:59:09 am
Dick, you are right..everyone including me wanted a stereo system but I wouldn't have asked for it if it was not a viable option. Meaning, I repeatedly asked if it it would work for this room since it's wider than it is long. I was assured it wouldn't be an issue (i.e. as seen in the email above).

The center cluster design just seems so obvious.  >:(

I will get some concrete opinion next week from an audio "professional". I will keep yall posted.
The FIRST question I always ask is "WHY do you want stereo?"  People just "assume" stereo is better than mono.

And the usual excuse is "you have 2 ears".  OK, but if you are talking about speakers taking the place of people talking-then the "talker" only has ONE MOUTH-NOT TWO.  2 signals make for less intelligible sound quality.  A SINGLE source is always better.

Stereo is easy to  pull off in a small room.  But larger rooms get to be harder and harder.

In order for "stereo" to work-EACH speaker system has to FULLY cover the room BY ITSELF.  If it does not-then anything that is panned to that side will not be heard by the seats that it is not covering.  Simple as that.

So as long as you are willing to accept the fact that a large number of people will no hear the same thing-then that is fine.  So how was the mix today Ms Johnson?  I could not hear Mary singing.  OH that was because you were seated on the left side and she was panned to the right.

Is THAT what you want?  The goal should be (to me anyway) that everybody get THE SAME experience.  A "stereo" setup like you have will not give that.

Yes Stereo may seem to be really cool in the middle-but not so cool on the sides.  It depends on what is important to you-and to some people it is ALL about them and their needs-NOT the rest of the congregation. 

Yet they forget where the money came from to get the "toys" they want.

YEAH-We need more money to put in a system that will produce lower quality sound-YEAH that is an easy sell------------

But sadly most people don't realize that a mono system is in many cases the best solution-but all their lives they have heard that stereo is better.  It is a tough sell.  And very often the guy who is pitching the stereo system that costs more will win the bid-because of people "perception" of stereo vs mono.

Mono is so boring and old fashioned.  Yet it works better.

Think of it this way-when the Pastor is speaking-his voice should be appear to be coming from ONE location-not TWO.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 08, 2013, 12:56:36 pm
Rereading the first post, there was no consultant on this job. It was a design build firm. Who make money off of the volume of product that is installed. 

Yup, I got my terminology mixed up. 
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Lee Buckalew on December 08, 2013, 02:08:56 pm


Rereading the second post tim says...Your going to have slap back off that back wall...

And this was meant regarding the speaker system but the O/P has gone on to say that he meant there is a significant (greater than 5s I believe) flutter echo in the room if you merely clap your hands. 
No speaker system will tame that.  Some could minimize the reaction with the room as far as 1st order reflections go but the room is a problem.
I am guessing no room acoustics consultant was on the project.

Sadly I think that this church built a nice looking but completely non-functional room space as far as audio is concerned and now the redesign required to fix the problems will cost far more than would have addressing them properly in the initial design phase.

Lee
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 08, 2013, 02:15:34 pm
And this was meant regarding the speaker system but the O/P has gone on to say that he meant there is a significant (greater than 5s I believe) flutter echo in the room if you merely clap your hands. 
No speaker system will tame that.  Some could minimize the reaction with the room as far as 1st order reflections go but the room is a problem.
I am guessing no room acoustics consultant was on the project.

Sadly I think that this church built a nice looking but completely non-functional room space as far as audio is concerned and now the redesign required to fix the problems will cost far more than would have addressing them properly in the initial design phase.

Lee

Reply #1 from Mac:


"Aside from what I think could be a terrible architectural design, I think you will want delay systems for the last 6 or 7 rows. Up high under the lower ceiling like that the main arrays may not cut it. That is a lot of vertical angle to cover and it is easy to shortchange the back rows."

My feelings tend toward the question of stewardship.  To me, it's nigh on to impossible to justify wanton expenditure like this, no due diligence, just "spend the money"...but IME people will always find the money for what they want before they'll address actual needs.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Doug Hammel on December 08, 2013, 02:42:32 pm
Dick, you are right..everyone including me wanted a stereo system but I wouldn't have asked for it if it was not a viable option. Meaning, I repeatedly asked if it it would work for this room since it's wider than it is long. I was assured it wouldn't be an issue (i.e. as seen in the email above).

The center cluster design just seems so obvious.  >:(

I will get some concrete opinion next week from an audio "professional". I will keep yall posted.

I would also get some quotes from other integrators. 2nd and 3rd opinions will give you some contrasts and possibly other angles, no pun intended, on how someone else would approach this room. If the "flutter/echo" is that bad without the system on then you will definitely need an Acoustical Engineer to consult on the room even if it is already built. All the gear in the world will not overcome that.
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 08, 2013, 03:00:28 pm
I would say an acoustician might be the first order of business. If the room is as bad as described, the right or wrong sound system isn't going to work well. Fix the acoustics, then a good system integrator will have something to work with.  In reality these process could be done in parallel, but I think investing anymore in equipment is foolish until the acoustics are dealt with.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Doug Hammel on December 08, 2013, 03:07:47 pm
Probably a little late to swap all this out..so just for discussion purposes...what would you guys have proposed instead?

This is some of my convo with the installer after I asked about concerns raised in this thread while back before the install:

Did JBL actually do the EASE model or someone else? Does JBL back up the EASE model you put up? Just asking.
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 08, 2013, 03:10:21 pm
I would say an acoustician might be the first order of business.

Back to square one...
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Doug Hammel on December 08, 2013, 03:19:20 pm
Back to square one...

+1  ;D.....unfortunately
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 08, 2013, 04:36:10 pm
Back to square one...
The only way to EQ a room is with a bulldozer or wrecking ball.

I have actually told a Church (who built a round room and was having issues) that they should tear it down and start over-instead of looking for a some magic loudspeaker solution.

At least it was not as bad as another Church who built a round room WITH a doomed ceiling!

I told them years before they broke ground (after seeing the plans) that was a BIG mistake.  But what do I know-they thought it looked cool----------------------

After all-what is more important-having a room that you can actually use for the intended purpose-or a shrine to the architect????????????????????
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 08, 2013, 04:39:23 pm
I would also get some quotes from other integrators. 2nd and 3rd opinions will give you some contrasts and possibly other angles, no pun intended, on how someone else would approach this room. If the "flutter/echo" is that bad without the system on then you will definitely need an Acoustical Engineer to consult on the room even if it is already built. All the gear in the world will not overcome that.
I have already contacted 4 companies in the Houston area including CTSI, HPF Acoustical, Russ Berger, and Bai Austin. Any other ones you guys know of?

I have to get the payment for the acoustical design approved by the board asap and have the company start on the design for the treatment. At this point, this seems like the most logical thing to do. Treat the room, and then see how things sound.

At this point, going to mono is probably not going to happen..maybe add mono out in the middle to make it LCR..but the car..i mean the subs are in the way. lol.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 08, 2013, 04:43:01 pm
I have already contacted 4 companies in the Houston area including CTSI, HPF Acoustical, Russ Berger, and Bai Austin. Any other ones you guys know of?

I have to get the payment for the acoustical design approved by the board asap and have the company start on the design for the treatment. At this point, this seems like the most logical thing to do. Treat the room, and then see how things sound.

At this point, going to mono is probably not going to happen..maybe add mono out in the middle to make it LCR..but the car..i mean the subs are in the way. lol.

Yup.  Just keep throwing money at the problem. 
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 08, 2013, 05:09:03 pm
I would not invite the acoustic companies to submit a treatment plan. I would ask them to let you know, based on their judgement if treatment could solve your problems. It may be that you need to knock down some walls.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 08, 2013, 06:19:17 pm

At this point, going to mono is probably not going to happen..maybe add mono out in the middle to make it LCR..but the car..i mean the subs are in the way. lol.
Again you are missing the point.  With an LCR- EACH of the elements HAS to cover the entire room.

What speaker system would you put in the middle (center) that would cover the whole room? Especially down front left and right?

While the "concept" sounds good-the actual implementation is not always so easy.

Unless of course you don't mind some people not hearing well.

So some people can't hear the center-others can't hear the left and others can't hear the right.

So you are just adding MORE seats that can't hear everything.

Kinda sounds like a step backwards to me.

And don't let anybody tell you that you can put a center hang in front of the subs.

How are you possibly going to align it?  If you think you can just delay the mains-think again.

Consider this:  With a flown cluster-the sound from the speakers that reaches the audience is already "late" reaching the audience-as compared to an acoustic source on stage.  This is partially due to the path length from the speakers to the audience-plus any delay in the console (if digital), the DSP etc.

So adding more delay (and it would be more than just the physical distance between the subs and mains, due to processing/crossover filters etc-just makes the sound from the mains even later.

Just sayin' you need to consider more than the "simple" ideas.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Thad Kraus on December 09, 2013, 01:40:44 pm
Again you are missing the point.  With an LCR- EACH of the elements HAS to cover the entire room.

What speaker system would you put in the middle (center) that would cover the whole room? Especially down front left and right?

While the "concept" sounds good-the actual implementation is not always so easy.

Unless of course you don't mind some people not hearing well.

So some people can't hear the center-others can't hear the left and others can't hear the right.

So you are just adding MORE seats that can't hear everything.

Kinda sounds like a step backwards to me.

And don't let anybody tell you that you can put a center hang in front of the subs.

How are you possibly going to align it?  If you think you can just delay the mains-think again.

Consider this:  With a flown cluster-the sound from the speakers that reaches the audience is already "late" reaching the audience-as compared to an acoustic source on stage.  This is partially due to the path length from the speakers to the audience-plus any delay in the console (if digital), the DSP etc.

So adding more delay (and it would be more than just the physical distance between the subs and mains, due to processing/crossover filters etc-just makes the sound from the mains even later.

Just sayin' you need to consider more than the "simple" ideas.
Not to hijack this thread, but is there ever a time where a Stereo PA is acceptable? Is it perhaps possible to have a LCR system with music coming out LR in Stereo and Vocals in the center?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 09, 2013, 02:26:52 pm
Not to hijack this thread, but is there ever a time where a Stereo PA is acceptable? Is it perhaps possible to have a LCR system with music coming out LR in Stereo and Vocals in the center?

If the system is designed so that each speaker array covers the entire audience, either stereo or LCR can be fine. I almost always make the PA stereo, but it has to be designed to work that way.

It is often difficult to put a big speaker or array in the center due to sight lines to screens, or architectural detail.

Mac

Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Tommy Peel on December 09, 2013, 03:23:48 pm
Not to hijack this thread, but is there ever a time where a Stereo PA is acceptable? Is it perhaps possible to have a LCR system with music coming out LR in Stereo and Vocals in the center?

I mix in a couple of smaller rooms regularly that are setup as "stereo" in that there is one top per side and the signal chain allows me to pan instruments to either side or run stereo sources through it in stereo. In reality the right speaker roughly covers the right side and the left covers the left side so almost everything(I'll usually pan the toms a little, occasionally run keys in stereo, and always run the effects in stereo) is center panned. IMO these systems sound good enough and cover the room good enough. I think in both situations a single speaker or cluster in the center might sound a little better but wouldn't be practical given the layout of the room.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 09, 2013, 04:45:39 pm
Not to hijack this thread, but is there ever a time where a Stereo PA is acceptable? Is it perhaps possible to have a LCR system with music coming out LR in Stereo and Vocals in the center?
That is the whole idea of LCR and the best usage.  Vocals will always sound better/clearer out of a single source of sound.

As Mac says-each of the 3 zones has to be able to cover the WHOLE room by itself.

So during the modeling process-you have to do 3 models and turn on each cluster one at a time and look for the coverage.

The same thing for doing the alignment and listening to see how well it covers.  Turn on JUST THE CENTER and see if it covers the whole room.  If it does not-then other plans need to be made-either a different design-or adding fill speakers for just that channel etc.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Thad Kraus on December 09, 2013, 07:41:16 pm
Much thanks for the insight into the issue. There was some discussion internally at the auditorium where I work about upgrading our speech reinforcement PA to one that is better suited to handle bands and live events as that is occurring more and more. The topic of LCR and stereo came up and we found this topic very fitting to what we were discussing.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 09, 2013, 07:58:52 pm
Much thanks for the insight into the issue. There was some discussion internally at the auditorium where I work about upgrading our speech reinforcement PA to one that is better suited to handle bands and live events as that is occurring more and more. The topic of LCR and stereo came up and we found this topic very fitting to what we were discussing.
Assuming that the proper coverage is provided-an LCR system will cost more.

ONE THING that many overlook is how to OPERATE an LCR system.  YOU DO NOT run the same signal to all the speakers-a common mistake that many make.

Typically run vocals to the center and musical instruments to the L/R-doing a little bit of panning to give some space to the music.

Since speech is processed on the "Math" side of the brain-we need it to be as clean as possible-hence the reason for a single source of sound.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Thad Kraus on December 09, 2013, 08:02:32 pm
Assuming that the proper coverage is provided-an LCR system will cost more.

ONE THING that many overlook is how to OPERATE an LCR system.  YOU DO NOT run the same signal to all the speakers-a common mistake that many make.

Typically run vocals to the center and musical instruments to the L/R-doing a little bit of panning to give some space to the music.

Since speech is processed on the "Math" side of the brain-we need it to be as clean as possible-hence the reason for a single source of sound.
Which is a bit easier to do on some of the new digital boards (or even some analog boards with the mono out) because the digital boards feature LCR output with the ability to assign certain channels to either the Center or the LR cluster. Correct?
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 09, 2013, 08:31:44 pm
Which is a bit easier to do on some of the new digital boards (or even some analog boards with the mono out) because the digital boards feature LCR output with the ability to assign certain channels to either the Center or the LR cluster. Correct?
It is easy to do on an analog console.  Simply choose a post aux send as the center channel.  Then don't assign the "center" channels to a sub group or the L/R output.

Now the channels will "mix" as normal-they will just go to the post aux out instead of the L/R as the other channels.

On most analog consoles with a "mono" output you cannot assign the channels directly to the mono out-they have to go through the L/R-which eliminates any possibility of LCR
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 09, 2013, 10:51:38 pm
Again you are missing the point.  With an LCR- EACH of the elements HAS to cover the entire room.

What speaker system would you put in the middle (center) that would cover the whole room? Especially down front left and right?

While the "concept" sounds good-the actual implementation is not always so easy.

Unless of course you don't mind some people not hearing well.

So some people can't hear the center-others can't hear the left and others can't hear the right.

So you are just adding MORE seats that can't hear everything.

Kinda sounds like a step backwards to me.

And don't let anybody tell you that you can put a center hang in front of the subs.

How are you possibly going to align it?  If you think you can just delay the mains-think again.

Consider this:  With a flown cluster-the sound from the speakers that reaches the audience is already "late" reaching the audience-as compared to an acoustic source on stage.  This is partially due to the path length from the speakers to the audience-plus any delay in the console (if digital), the DSP etc.

So adding more delay (and it would be more than just the physical distance between the subs and mains, due to processing/crossover filters etc-just makes the sound from the mains even later.

Just sayin' you need to consider more than the "simple" ideas.
Gotcha. So in theory LCR doesn't work in this room either right? Sorry I am still learning all this.

Is there any way we can redo the setup with the existing speakers? Or do we need new speakers to do the mono clusters with side fills that was recommended in the thread earlier?

Knocking down walls ain't gonna happen. lol. hell, half the people don't even think there's a problem.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 09, 2013, 10:54:17 pm
On most analog consoles with a "mono" output you cannot assign the channels directly to the mono out-they have to go through the L/R-which eliminates any possibility of LCR
I was able to do mono output on my AH zed mixer. That's how I ran the "aux fed" subs.
http://zkcd.net/_gfx/matos/dyn/large/allen-heath-zed-428_2.jpg
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 09, 2013, 11:37:15 pm

Gotcha. So in theory LCR doesn't work in this room either right? Sorry I am still learning all this.

Is there any way we can redo the setup with the existing speakers? Or do we need new speakers to do the mono clusters with side fills that was recommended in the thread earlier?

Knocking down walls ain't gonna happen. lol. hell, half the people don't even think there's a problem.

Redeployment may be an option, but I doubt anyone here is going to run a model for you, and realistically that's what needs to be done  there is nothing wrong with the gear, except it might not be the right gear for you. Get the acoustics under control first. Then look at what is and isn't working. If the acoustics are crap, how will you be able to tell if the redeployment works.  Solve one problem at a time.
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Corey Scogin on December 10, 2013, 12:49:40 am
Since the topic is hot, here's a hypothetical question for the group:

Say, for example, I have a shallow but wide room.  Seating is divided into 3 sections left, center, right.  Sight lines dictate speaker clusters must be hung inline with the aisles between sections Left & Center and Right & Center. 

Would it be acceptable to install a 2-speaker cluster on each side where the outside speakers covered the Left and Right seating sections in mono and the inside speakers both covered the center section in stereo?  

Granted, people in the outside sections wouldn't hear exactly the same thing as people in the center section but everything should be heard in each of the three sections whether a source is panned or not.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 10, 2013, 07:34:10 am
Gotcha. So in theory LCR doesn't work in this room either right? Sorry I am still learning all this.

Is there any way we can redo the setup with the existing speakers? Or do we need new speakers to do the mono clusters with side fills that was recommended in the thread earlier?

Knocking down walls ain't gonna happen. lol. hell, half the people don't even think there's a problem.
Nobody said LCR would not work.  It just has to be done right-and it would not work with the current setup by simply adding a center speaker.

It is a possibility-by moving the L/R cluster and installing a center cluster/system.

But the real question is-is the Church willing to spend the money?  If not-then it is a waste of time doing a design.  And before any would start a proper design-then need to know what sort of budget is available.  And that has to include possibly new steel for new speaker hangs (we have no idea what there is to hang from now)-possibly larger conduit sizes (again something we know nothing about) etc.  You need to be sure to plan on money for hiring somebody knowledgeable to do a proper system alignment.

In my opinion it SHOULD be the person who designed the system and is responsible for the performance.  If it is not-then you can end up with a lot of "finger pointing" for why it doesn't work.

Based on what I have read so far-I would FIRST spend money on a proper acoustic design and install.  THEN see how things are.

But taking "fancy approaches" to the sound system are a waste of time in a acoustically bad room.

Do not expect electronics to fix an acoustic problem.
Title: Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 10, 2013, 07:40:17 am
Since the topic is hot, here's a hypothetical question for the group:

Say, for example, I have a shallow but wide room.  Seating is divided into 3 sections left, center, right.  Sight lines dictate speaker clusters must be hung inline with the aisles between sections Left & Center and Right & Center. 

Would it be acceptable to install a 2-speaker cluster on each side where the outside speakers covered the Left and Right seating sections in mono and the inside speakers both covered the center section in stereo?  

Granted, people in the outside sections wouldn't hear exactly the same thing as people in the center section but everything should be heard in each of the three sections whether a source is panned or not.
I have done that a number of times.  It is hard to provide true stereo to all the seats.  So the outside seats have a summed mono-so they still get all the information. 

It is when you lose information that I have an issue with.

Here is a link to a system just like that, that I did the alignment on about a month ago.

It is a 2300 seat room with balcony.  A single speaker for the left/right (with a down fill which is hung above the main speaker) and then a fill speaker on the outside of each of the mains for the summed mono for the seats down front on the outsides.  There is a single sub in the room also-so 7 cabinets total for the PA in the room.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=599639733431756&set=vb.126113687424773&type=2&theater
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Brad Weber on December 10, 2013, 08:12:23 am
I have already contacted 4 companies in the Houston area including CTSI, HPF Acoustical, Russ Berger, and Bai Austin. Any other ones you guys know of?

I have to get the payment for the acoustical design approved by the board asap and have the company start on the design for the treatment. At this point, this seems like the most logical thing to do. Treat the room, and then see how things sound.
Looks like some good consulting firms that should be able to discusss your situation with you and help you put together a plan of action.  However, the room and system already being in place will almost certainly affect their options and approaches to any treatments and the treatments recommended are also likely to be more costly to implement at this point in time.
 
I find that many people associate mono, stereo, LCR, etc. to the physical speaker arrangement.  While there are indeeed common basic speaker component configurations associated with each approach what is really being addressed is what is heard by the listeners.  For example, there's a lot more to getting all listeners to actually perceive "stereo" from a speaker system than just having left and right speakers.  Here's some interesting general speaker system format discussion from our friends at Acoustic Dimensions, http://www.acousticdimensions.com/ADtools_multichannel.html (http://www.acousticdimensions.com/ADtools_multichannel.html).  Note the comments in the details for each system regarding the goals for coverage of the individual speaker system elements.
 
The response you received regarding the modeling seems to dance around actually answering the question.  It sounds like the modeling was performed by JBL rather than the Contractor and perhaps your Contractor does not understand the issue sufficiently to actually answer your question or get the information from JBL.  For a stereo system I would like to see the coverage for each individual channel as well as the system with both channels on and interference turned on in order to assess the expected results with center panned mono sources.  Averaging the results over a wider bandwidth can also 'hide' many frequency related issues, you may see the results in terms of the overall SPL with a wide bandwidth source but not what happens in terms of the frequency response throughout the listener area or what happens at certain frequencies.
Title: Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
Post by: Justin Philip on December 10, 2013, 02:21:51 pm
Brad, that link was very helpful. Wish I had seen it before the install. It seems like Corey's suggestion of adding a mono mix on the outer sections is how acousticdimensions have it shown on the site.

Ivan, in terms of ease of install/money ..is that a more reasonable option than starting over and doing another setup such as mono point source or distributed?

And yes..I am def. in the process of getting a company in the facility to have them evaluate and give us their recommendations. At this point I can't do any major renovations like break down walls, so treating the room is about as good as I can get.

A lot of this would have been prevented had our first consultant stay on the project and we should have replaced a consultant with a consultant..not a design/install company. Hindsight is 20/20.