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Title: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Nate Armstrong on February 13, 2013, 10:52:43 am
I am looking for suggestions on  Direct boxs to pad down pioneer Dj mixers.  The newest pioneer djm mixers do not have a 1/4 inch master out. They only have a XLR output and RCA output. So I either need a DI with a XLR input or a RCA input.  The mix wiz pad does not pad it enough when the dj mixer is maxed out.

I found models
BSS Audio AR-133 Active DI Box @ 179 each ($360)

EWI DBRC-2A 2 channel passive direct box @ $49.50 

The EWI could also be used for people that give me a 1/8 source or RCA source


rig
Mixwiz 16
Drive rack pa ( over easy limiter)
DBX for brick wall limiter
QSC KW 153 / Kw18 
KW12 monitors
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Andre Vare on February 13, 2013, 11:06:29 am
I am looking for suggestions on  Direct boxs to pad down pioneer Dj mixers.  The newest pioneer djm mixers do not have a 1/4 inch master out. They only have a XLR output and RCA output.
If all you ae looking for is to reduce the level, then something like the http://www.shure.com/americas/products/accessories/microphones/microphone-problem-solvers/a15as-inline-switchable-attenuator (http://www.shure.com/americas/products/accessories/microphones/microphone-problem-solvers/a15as-inline-switchable-attenuator) may be all you need.

Andre
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Greg_Cameron on February 13, 2013, 12:13:24 pm
Whirlwind pcDI, RCA and 1/4" stereo inputs. Also has a summing mode to make stereo inputs mono:

http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/black-boxes-effects-and-dis/direct-boxes/pcdi

The older version which might still be available had RCA in + loop through as well as 1/8" TRS. No mono summing featuring. I own both and have never used the RCA loop through or the 1/8" input, so my vote is for the newer version.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Greg_Cameron on February 13, 2013, 12:16:54 pm
Whirlwind pcDI, RCA and 1/4" stereo inputs. Also has a summing mode to make stereo inputs mono:

http://whirlwindusa.com/catalog/black-boxes-effects-and-dis/direct-boxes/pcdi

The older version which might still be available had RCA in + loop through as well as 1/8" TRS. No mono summing featuring. I own both and have never used the RCA loop through or the 1/8" input, so my vote is for the newer version.

Correction on that, the new one also has the 1/8" input. Still never used it ;)
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on February 13, 2013, 12:18:49 pm
Use a pair of XLR-TRS adapters and go into line inputs rather than mic inputs.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Greg_Cameron on February 13, 2013, 12:57:18 pm
I would agree with you except it's a lot tougher to mitigate ground loop problems with a direct line connection down the snake. In my experience, it's better to have the ability to isolate the ground with a transformer based DI, generally speaking.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Jerome Malsack on February 13, 2013, 01:07:45 pm
And what about the live wire or HOSA  RCA male to 1/4 TS male cable. 
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on February 13, 2013, 01:18:32 pm
I would agree with you except it's a lot tougher to mitigate ground loop problems with a direct line connection down the snake. In my experience, it's better to have the ability to isolate the ground with a transformer based DI, generally speaking.

I guess so, but I would try the simple and cheap solution first and if it works then you're done. For an install DIs and lifting signal ground would be my third option after trying the adapter and trying to make the power right.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on February 13, 2013, 01:19:45 pm
And what about the live wire or HOSA  RCA male to 1/4 TS male cable.

Not down a snake.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 13, 2013, 01:35:33 pm
The Shure attenuators that Andre linked to are about US$50.  If you know how much attenuation you need, you can find fixed pads for around US$25.

DIs that can take the CDJ levels are a different animal from the usual passive DI.

I suggest the Radial JDI Duplex.  It builds in a -20dB pad at the XLR inputs.  Streets for US$350.  I looked at a couple other Radial products that offer XLR in/out, none have input attenuation at the XLR in.



I am looking for suggestions on  Direct boxs to pad down pioneer Dj mixers.  The newest pioneer djm mixers do not have a 1/4 inch master out. They only have a XLR output and RCA output. So I either need a DI with a XLR input or a RCA input.  The mix wiz pad does not pad it enough when the dj mixer is maxed out.

I found models
BSS Audio AR-133 Active DI Box @ 179 each ($360)

EWI DBRC-2A 2 channel passive direct box @ $49.50 

The EWI could also be used for people that give me a 1/8 source or RCA source


rig
Mixwiz 16
Drive rack pa ( over easy limiter)
DBX for brick wall limiter
QSC KW 153 / Kw18 
KW12 monitors
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Geoff Doane on February 13, 2013, 01:44:13 pm

BSS Audio AR-133 Active DI Box @ 179 each ($360)

EWI DBRC-2A 2 channel passive direct box @ $49.50 



The BSS input is not balanced, and has unity gain unless you switch in the pad.  It seems like a lot of money to spend for what is essentially a pad.

The trouble with cheap passive DIs is they have small transformers which saturate easily at low frequencies and high levels (exactly the situation you will have will a DJ).

I'd look into a couple XLR barrel pads (you can make your own), and I think we discussed this a little while ago:

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=141375.0

GTD

P.S.  Just discovered the link within the link above is broken.  This one works:

http://audiopile.net/products/Adaptors_Connectors/Adaptors/AP_XLR_PAD/XLR_PAD_cutsheet.shtml
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Joseph D. Macry on February 13, 2013, 02:09:19 pm
I am looking for suggestions on  Direct boxs to pad down pioneer Dj mixers.  The newest pioneer djm mixers do not have a 1/4 inch master out. They only have a XLR output and RCA output. So I either need a DI with a XLR input or a RCA input.  The mix wiz pad does not pad it enough when the dj mixer is maxed out.

I found models
BSS Audio AR-133 Active DI Box @ 179 each ($360)

EWI DBRC-2A 2 channel passive direct box @ $49.50 

The EWI could also be used for people that give me a 1/8 source or RCA source


rig
Mixwiz 16
Drive rack pa ( over easy limiter)
DBX for brick wall limiter
QSC KW 153 / Kw18 
KW12 monitors

Radial ProAV1/2
http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/proav.php
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on February 13, 2013, 02:11:38 pm
I'd look into a couple XLR barrel pads (you can make your own), and I think we discussed this a little while ago:

That's effectively the same as adapting to TRS and it doesn't solve the (presumed) ground problem. If it's just a level matching problem then the best solution is to connect the line level balanced signal to a line level balanced input. Why make things more complicated than they have to be?
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 13, 2013, 02:20:40 pm
I am looking for suggestions on  Direct boxs to pad down pioneer Dj mixers.  The newest pioneer djm mixers do not have a 1/4 inch master out. They only have a XLR output and RCA output. So I either need a DI with a XLR input or a RCA input.  The mix wiz pad does not pad it enough when the dj mixer is maxed out.

If you're going XLR out from the DJ mixer into the MixWiz XLR ins, you're going into a mic level input and then using the onboard pad to knock it down.  But if you use an XLR>TRS cable out of the DJ mixer into the line input of the Wiz and then using the pad, you'll get closer to a usable level.

I'll check the schematic to make sure, but I think this should do it for you.

Otherwise, Switchcraft makes a stereo DI with TS and RCA inputs.  Two models, one with Jensen transformers for about $380 and a cheaper one.

Edit:

Yup.  The pad is in line with either input, so you get the inherent signal diminution plus the pad on the line input.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Frank DeWitt on February 13, 2013, 02:32:09 pm
Two sources.  http://www.jensen-transformers.com/pixxpoxx.html  Jensen will put one of these together with XLR in and any out you want.  The only down side is no ground lift.

I will build you one (I make and sell DI boxes.) It will have a TRS input wired balanced signal on Tip and Ring. You will need a XLR to TRS cable.   Clock on my Sig for details.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on February 13, 2013, 03:20:59 pm
You will need a XLR to TRS cable.

And quite possible nothing else.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 13, 2013, 03:56:43 pm
And quite possible nothing else.

Yup.

Running the XLR outputs from the DJ mixer into the line inputs using the XLR>TRS cables and using the 30dB pads on the Wiz should give you 45dB of reduction.  If that's not enough .......

TURN THE MIXER DOWN.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Andre Vare on February 13, 2013, 04:17:07 pm
But if you use an XLR>TRS cable out of the DJ mixer into the line input of the Wiz and then using the pad, you'll get closer to a usable level.
This makes the most sense and is the cheapest.

Andre
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Nate Armstrong on February 13, 2013, 04:22:09 pm
Quote

You will need a XLR to TRS cable.
I looked in the mixwiz manual
XLR input sensitivity -60 to +10 db
TRS input sensitivity -40 to +10 db
Pad in (MIC or LINE) >10k ohm, -20dB

The Pioneer DJ mixer has a +22 DB sensitivity   
I would think with the pad activated on the MW I would only have a +2 db at the line input of the Mixwiz  but it seems way hotter than that.  I have to turn the gain almost all the way off ( -8 db ) to not have a clipped signal when they red line the pioneer.

Edit
I just realized something .. There are 2 diagrams on the MW trim pot  -10 to + 40 and 10db to +60
I have been looking at the TRS diagram and not the XLR diagram this entire time. So when I thought I was at 0DB i was actually at 20 DB because I was using XLR mic input    ( wow i feel dumb )



The BSS input is not balanced, and has unity gain unless you switch in the pad.  It seems like a lot of money to spend for what is essentially a pad.

The trouble with cheap passive DIs is they have small transformers which saturate easily at low frequencies and high levels (exactly the situation you will have will a DJ).

I'd look into a couple XLR barrel pads (you can make your own), and I think we discussed this a little while ago:

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=141375.0

GTD

P.S.  Just discovered the link within the link above is broken.  This one works:

http://audiopile.net/products/Adaptors_Connectors/Adaptors/AP_XLR_PAD/XLR_PAD_cutsheet.shtml




I rather not purchase 2 more DI's if not needed especially at such a high price.  Really all I need is a Pad
Can I get some advice on what pad to get
I am leaning towards the 30 DB pad  would that be to much ?
The Pioneer mixer is rated at +22 DB

I may not need a Pad at all if I use a TRS jack. I am going to test it when I get home. I dont have a DJM but i still should be able to replicate it..

Basically I just want a clean close to 0 DB signal into my board and a clean signal out to my PA
What do I need to accomplish that ? 
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Nate Armstrong on February 13, 2013, 04:29:57 pm
To me it seems like Dick ,Patrick and frank are all correct and I just need a XLR to TRS to plus the built in Pad on the mixer.  Like I stated early I will test this sometime this week.

Glad I asked instead of just going out and buying expensive Di's
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 13, 2013, 04:41:54 pm
To me it seems like Dick ,Patrick and frank are all correct and I just need a XLR to TRS to plus the built in Pad on the mixer.  Like I stated early I will test this sometime this week.

Glad I asked instead of just going out and buying expensive Di's

Split the money you saved and send us each 1/3.

DR
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Greg_Cameron on February 13, 2013, 04:42:16 pm
To me it seems like Dick ,Patrick and frank are all correct and I just need a XLR to TRS to plus the built in Pad on the mixer.  Like I stated early I will test this sometime this week.

Glad I asked instead of just going out and buying expensive Di's

Better grab a pair of pin 1 lift barrels while you're at it then in the event of ground loop noise. But that doesn't always do the trick if the noise is coupled through the active circuitry as well - in which case only transformers will solve the issue.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 13, 2013, 04:44:42 pm
Better grab a pair of pin 1 lift barrels while you're at it then in the event of ground loop noise. But that doesn't always do the trick if the noise is coupled through the active circuitry as well - in which case only transformers will solve the issue.

Hey, now.....


You tryin' to make this a 4-way split? ;D
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Marlow Wilson on February 13, 2013, 04:49:15 pm
To me it seems like Dick ,Patrick and frank are all correct and I just need a XLR to TRS to plus the built in Pad on the mixer.  Like I stated early I will test this sometime this week.

Glad I asked instead of just going out and buying expensive Di's

I can't remember what it is without being in front of one, but if you power up the newer DJM mixers while holding down the right button(s) you can access a menu to attenuate the master output by 3 or 6 dB. 

I think the button is 'utility' (while powering on) but check for yourself.





Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Tracy Garner on February 13, 2013, 08:04:18 pm
I am looking for suggestions on  Direct boxs to pad down pioneer Dj mixers.  The newest pioneer djm mixers do not have a 1/4 inch master out. They only have a XLR output and RCA output. So I either need a DI with a XLR input or a RCA input.  The mix wiz pad does not pad it enough when the dj mixer is maxed out.

I found models
BSS Audio AR-133 Active DI Box @ 179 each ($360)

EWI DBRC-2A 2 channel passive direct box @ $49.50 

The EWI could also be used for people that give me a 1/8 source or RCA source


rig
Mixwiz 16
Drive rack pa ( over easy limiter)
DBX for brick wall limiter
QSC KW 153 / Kw18 
KW12 monitors

I have used the MixWiz to DJ Mixer setup many many times. The pad on the MixWiz works fine by itself. But if you have a DJ that insists on going in the red, put a BBE882 in between the DJ mixer and the MixWiz input. Call me crazy but it acts as the coolest soft limiter and it actually gives the harshness the DJ is trying to achieve when driving the mixer into the red. Also it compensates for the various bitrate MP3/WAV/FLAC/AIFF files the DJ is using. Let the BBE levels run as hot as you want and it won't overload the MixWiz input.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Geoff Doane on February 13, 2013, 09:49:31 pm
That's effectively the same as adapting to TRS and it doesn't solve the (presumed) ground problem. If it's just a level matching problem then the best solution is to connect the line level balanced signal to a line level balanced input. Why make things more complicated than they have to be?

What's more complicated, XLR-TRS adpaters or XLR pads?  It seems like 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.  At least the XLRs lock.  :)

The OP doesn't mention which generation of MixWiz he has, but the current one lists the same maximum input level for either line input (TRS) or mic input with pad (+30 dBu).  On my old GL2000s, the mic input with the pad engaged was exactly the same as the line input (except that you could apply phantom power to the XLR).  The current MixWiz, and I suspect the older ones, follows that design.  If the DJs really are overloading the padded mic input, they'll do the same to the TRS line input if all you use is a simple adapter.

GTD
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Josh Daws on February 13, 2013, 10:35:39 pm
i use a Radial ProAV/AV2 DI box...FOR ALOT...laptops, DJ mixers, iPODS etc. i know it doesn't have the XLR in...but it has 1/8", 1/4", RCA, and loop outs for each, plus the XLR out. these retail at about the $129 mark...
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 13, 2013, 11:14:40 pm
i use a Radial ProAV/AV2 DI box...FOR ALOT...laptops, DJ mixers, iPODS etc. i know it doesn't have the XLR in...but it has 1/8", 1/4", RCA, and loop outs for each, plus the XLR out. these retail at about the $129 mark...

Go back upthread and read my first post.  Then go to Radial's site.

The AV1 indeed does have XLR input and output.  What it lacks is a PAD between the XLR in and the transformer.

The AV2 does NOT have the XLR input.  The space was needed for the other output.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Craig Hauber on February 13, 2013, 11:31:20 pm
I know everyone has talked about a simple cable, but for years I've been using the Klark Teknik DI boxes for exactly this purpose.
I've found the audio out of the XLR's sounds slightly better than the rca's on the mixer and I've always seemed to be stuck with boards that don't have enough pad on the XLR's  The box also solves any ground loop issues as well.
(Although lately I've been using a 722 Dominator as the ultimate DJ interface :)


I am looking for suggestions on  Direct boxs to pad down pioneer Dj mixers.  The newest pioneer djm mixers do not have a 1/4 inch master out. They only have a XLR output and RCA output. So I either need a DI with a XLR input or a RCA input.  The mix wiz pad does not pad it enough when the dj mixer is maxed out.

I found models
BSS Audio AR-133 Active DI Box @ 179 each ($360)

EWI DBRC-2A 2 channel passive direct box @ $49.50 

The EWI could also be used for people that give me a 1/8 source or RCA source


rig
Mixwiz 16
Drive rack pa ( over easy limiter)
DBX for brick wall limiter
QSC KW 153 / Kw18 
KW12 monitors
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Earl F Young on February 13, 2013, 11:52:18 pm
http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/di_boxes/product/xdirect/      $29/ea at B&H. decent for this purpose.. .

Go back upthread and read my first post.  Then go to Radial's site.

The AV1 indeed does have XLR input and output.  What it lacks is a PAD between the XLR in and the transformer.

The AV2 does NOT have the XLR input.  The space was needed for the other output.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Greg_Cameron on February 14, 2013, 01:11:57 am
http://artproaudio.com/artcessories/di_boxes/product/xdirect  $29/ea at B&H. decent for this purpose..

Really for this type of application, you want a passive DI with a decent transformer rather than an active DI without a transformer. The reason is that direct coupled active DIs can still allow noise problems to occur under some circumstances. Line level devices don't need the high impedance afforded by active DIs relative to passive ones. The transformer isolation of a passive DI will guarantee 100% isolation from any possible noise that would be caused by the direct coupled circuitry of a non-tranformer type active DI.

edit: fixed run-on sentence.
Title: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Dave Neale on February 14, 2013, 01:22:48 am
Hi, I rarely post here anymore, but here goes.



The Pioneer mixers definitely have attenuation for the outputs.

However, I get that a dj is showing up with this thing and its their gear and how you might not want to get into his digital mixer and play with settings.

Which brings me to...

What you really need to do is train your client a bit.  They should be sending you a level you can use. They should be willing to work with you and really they should ask if what they are sending you is a good nominal level.

Most djs don't know anything about that stuff until you train them a bit.

I've never had one get mad at me once I explained the headroom concept and walked them through setting proper gain stages.  I try to get them to eq flat and ask me for what shaping they want at my console. That's a mixed bag, but if they work with me I can keep things a lot more linear.

 Most of them can appreciate the difference when we do a venue walk.

I do always do a dual compressor set up to finesse the feed a bit. You need to play with it but you can fatten up the bottom and get the big rave feel at a lower system level.

If a guitar player was peeling everybody's face off in a small space you'd say something, right? Or if DI'd keys are clipping? Same deal.

They're djs, you will have to remind them a lot.

Oh, and lots of stuff is digital now. Yellow is the new red.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on February 14, 2013, 12:30:12 pm
I looked in the mixwiz manual
XLR input sensitivity -60 to +10 db
TRS input sensitivity -40 to +10 db
Pad in (MIC or LINE) >10k ohm, -20dB

It looks like there's a typo: XLR sensitivity should be -60 yo -10dB. The gain control has a 50dB range with a 20dB offset between XLR and TRS, plus a 20dB pad that works on either.

With the pad engaged the TRS input can handle +30dBu.

The XLR-TRS is just the first thing to try and may be all you need. But with visiting DJs it's not a bad idea to be prepared with more solutions.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Jerome Malsack on February 14, 2013, 01:06:17 pm
Not down a snake.

RCA to TS into the DI, xlr out the DI down the snake, common.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on February 14, 2013, 11:27:03 pm
RCA to TS into the DI, xlr out the DI down the snake, common.

And perhaps a lower output than the XLR.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Jerome Malsack on February 15, 2013, 08:03:46 am
And perhaps a lower output than the XLR.

and that line level -20 db consumer output is lower than a base guitar pickup without amplification?

The mixers input is not able to adjust the gain +60 db?? most do.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on February 15, 2013, 11:17:18 am
and that line level -20 db consumer output is lower than a base guitar pickup without amplification?

The mixers input is not able to adjust the gain +60 db?? most do.

I was recognizing the lower output as a possible advantage if the DJ is slamming the levels. But I would still start with a simple XLR-TRS from the DJ mixer balanced out.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Nate Armstrong on February 18, 2013, 03:53:25 pm
Hi, I rarely post here anymore, but here goes.



The Pioneer mixers definitely have attenuation for the outputs.

However, I get that a dj is showing up with this thing and its their gear and how you might not want to get into his digital mixer and play with settings.

Which brings me to...

What you really need to do is train your client a bit.  They should be sending you a level you can use. They should be willing to work with you and really they should ask if what they are sending you is a good nominal level.

Most djs don't know anything about that stuff until you train them a bit.

I've never had one get mad at me once I explained the headroom concept and walked them through setting proper gain stages.  I try to get them to eq flat and ask me for what shaping they want at my console. That's a mixed bag, but if they work with me I can keep things a lot more linear.

 Most of them can appreciate the difference when we do a venue walk.

I do always do a dual compressor set up to finesse the feed a bit. You need to play with it but you can fatten up the bottom and get the big rave feel at a lower system level.

If a guitar player was peeling everybody's face off in a small space you'd say something, right? Or if DI'd keys are clipping? Same deal.

They're djs, you will have to remind them a lot.

Oh, and lots of stuff is digital now. Yellow is the new red.

I am done trying to have this conversation with Dj's  more often than not it goes in one ear and out the other. Local guys normally understand and realize I want it to sound as good as possible, they send me a good signal. When the headliner comes on. that's is when I have a problem even after I have explained it to them and that I left head room for there performance to be louder than the others.. Every one of these shows I do I have at least 1 ( normally more ) dj that redlines, and im tired of fighting it.

I have yet to test my 1/4 in output and see if that drops the signal down.
I plan on purchasing 2 DI's leaning toward the Klark techinca or Radial.

For now I got 2   -20 DB pads.  That plus the pads on the Mix wiz should be more than enough.

after all the Di's and outboard gear, Im thinking i should of just got a digital board..

thanks for the help everyone !
Title: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Dave Neale on February 18, 2013, 04:15:00 pm
I get that. Have you tried slamming them with the monitor mix to trick them into pulling their master down?
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Marlow Wilson on February 18, 2013, 05:54:06 pm
I get that. Have you tried slamming them with the monitor mix to trick them into pulling their master down?

Dave,

I know you mean well.

Real professionals won't f*** with the monitor levels.  Real touring DJ's also won't take well to the nanny soundman.  It's our job to work with them, not the other way around

Just my thoughts.
Title: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Dave Neale on February 19, 2013, 01:58:03 pm
I should probably walk away from this, but over my 15 years of no day job, four plus shows/week, and touring, sometimes I have found it helpful to use wedges and psycho acoustics to get what I need out of an artist to ensure a good sounding mix for the house full of paying clients and the promoter that's paying for the rig. Which is actually the job in my mind.

Have had this discussion with other professionals and I am surely not the only one.

It is far more professional to send clipped out signals, ignore the system tech and otherwise abuse gear you don't own I suppose. 
 
if the wedges are too hot on deck, the dj has the solution at their master fader. Win/win if you ask me.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Branko Pucekovic on February 19, 2013, 03:12:25 pm
That there is no PA system, which, a good DJ can not destroy.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Marlow Wilson on February 19, 2013, 03:38:04 pm
I should probably walk away from this, but over my 15 years of no day job, four plus shows/week, and touring, sometimes I have found it helpful to use wedges and psycho acoustics to get what I need out of an artist to ensure a good sounding mix for the house full of paying clients and the promoter that's paying for the rig. Which is actually the job in my mind.

Have had this discussion with other professionals and I am surely not the only one.

It is far more professional to send clipped out signals, ignore the system tech and otherwise abuse gear you don't own I suppose. 
 
if the wedges are too hot on deck, the dj has the solution at their master fader. Win/win if you ask me.

What you've described is completely reasonable.  Going overkill on wedges for dj's works wonders.  The term "slamming" them with the monitors suggested, to me at least, that you would suddenly add 12db or so of gain over their preferred level as set by their independent monitor output to punish them for misbehaving.  Slowly adding gain (psychoacoustics I guess) to overcome the reduced perceived loudness over time that happens when an artist comes out of their quiet green room and acclimates to the deafening loudness is entirely different.

To put it in context, someone on this forum once suggested introducing delay into the monitors of a DJ just to 'play' with him.  Uncooperative DJ's are like any other performer.  You do what you can on the interpersonal level but come prepared to use whatever techniques to improve the situation if the performer doesn't take to it.

The bigger point you've also raised is that none of this is possible if the monitor system you've provided is inadequate.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on February 19, 2013, 08:11:49 pm
I am looking for suggestions on  Direct boxs to pad down pioneer Dj mixers.  The newest pioneer djm mixers do not have a 1/4 inch master out. They only have a XLR output and RCA output. So I either need a DI with a XLR input or a RCA input.  The mix wiz pad does not pad it enough when the dj mixer is maxed out.

I found models
BSS Audio AR-133 Active DI Box @ 179 each ($360)

EWI DBRC-2A 2 channel passive direct box @ $49.50 

The EWI could also be used for people that give me a 1/8 source or RCA source


rig
Mixwiz 16
Drive rack pa ( over easy limiter)
DBX for brick wall limiter
QSC KW 153 / Kw18 
KW12 monitors

Buy one of these and call it good.   http://audiopile.net/products/Adaptors_Connectors/Adaptors/AP_XLR_PAD/XLR_PAD_cutsheet.shtml
Title: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Dave Neale on February 21, 2013, 06:40:37 pm
What you've described is completely reasonable.  Going overkill on wedges for dj's works wonders.  The term "slamming" them with the monitors suggested, to me at least, that you would suddenly add 12db or so of gain over their preferred level as set by their independent monitor output to punish them for misbehaving.  Slowly adding gain (psychoacoustics I guess) to overcome the reduced perceived loudness over time that happens when an artist comes out of their quiet green room and acclimates to the deafening loudness is entirely different.

To put it in context, someone on this forum once suggested introducing delay into the monitors of a DJ just to 'play' with him.  Uncooperative DJ's are like any other performer.  You do what you can on the interpersonal level but come prepared to use whatever techniques to improve the situation if the performer doesn't take to it.

The bigger point you've also raised is that none of this is possible if the monitor system you've provided is inadequate.

Yes, perhaps slammed gave the wrong impression.

Ill start off a dj pretty loud in the monitors to hopefully keep their master fader down, and it def has to do with psyco acoustics and fletcher- Munson.

The louder it is, the more pronounced the bass is perceived.

What really works is using small subs as part of the dj rig like a proper drum fill rig.

I know we all have our issues with djs, and too much attenuation is better than not enough, but needing -50db of pad just seems insane to me.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on February 21, 2013, 11:33:48 pm
I get that. Have you tried slamming them with the monitor mix to trick them into pulling their master down?

Many DJ's have that figured out now and have a "DIRECT INPUT FROM DJ MIXER TO MONITOR SYSTEM... NO CONSOLES ALLOWED" clause in their rider so that they can control their own monitor level. Dj mixers have their own monitor level control on their board.

The "red means bad" talk only works for the first half of the show, after that the soundman has to ride his input gain on his aux mixer for the rest of the night. There is just no way around it.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Craig Hauber on February 22, 2013, 10:45:19 am
Many DJ's have that figured out now and have a "DIRECT INPUT FROM DJ MIXER TO MONITOR SYSTEM... NO CONSOLES ALLOWED" clause in their rider so that they can control their own monitor level. Dj mixers have their own monitor level control on their board.

This simply means they want their booth monitor feed taken from the booth outs of their console. 
For years I've seen booth monitors fed from a foldback mix derived in the house PA using the DJ's L&R house feed.  Resulting in a frustrating back&forth between DJ and engineer.  This was usually exaggerated by the fact that the DJ was usually there after all the live bands were done and the engineer is out back helping them load-out, then hanging out at the bar upstairs while the rig merrily blasts-away unattended :-)

Part of the issue too is the DJ can't actually turn them down or off either, not just that they don't go louder.  However I am convinced that there are no monitors loud enough for a DJ, although a pair of S4's comes close :-)

The rider also says "console", not "Primary Matrix DSP system"

Quote
The "red means bad" talk only works for the first half of the show, after that the soundman has to ride his input gain on his aux mixer for the rest of the night. There is just no way around it.
Save your breath, take him/her a bottle-service setup of their favorite libation and get them and their posse all happy and friendly.  Then discretely engage your Dominator before your main system DSP :-)
(seriously though, just be friendly, provide good service, give them the best your system can put out without damage and the night will usually go good)

Title: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Dave Neale on February 22, 2013, 01:29:19 pm
Anytime I've been obligated to patch to the monitor out on a dj console, the dj just pushed the monitor rig right into limiting anyway.

Accomplishing my goal for me, but also necessitating worrying about blown monitor drivers all night.

I may be helped by the fact that in the venue I do most of my EDM, the artist is onstage just like a band. They can feel I've got the room thumping so its probably easier for get them to keep their levels reasonable.

Of course half the time they have their damn cans on anyway.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Nate Armstrong on March 05, 2013, 10:41:30 am
Over the weekend I had an Electronic music show.  My Pa was on a smaller stage. while I was doing lighting on a larger stage.

I brought more Rig than the gig needed so I would have a lot of headroom left the entire night.

As I setup the pa, I tried as some one suggested
 "Use a pair of XLR-TRS adapters and go into line inputs rather than mic inputs"   
This did not lower the level coming into the mixer at all.

I attached the -20 DB pads that I got from audiopile.net
I then turned the pioneer DJM mixer to max on the master and the CD level on the dj mixer almost to max.
the signal was still to hot. Once I activated the onboard pad on the Mixwiz. the Level was great, I trimmed up to  the proper level.  set the limiters.  I then backed down the DJ mixer to 3 o clock ( about 80 %) still showing red on the Dj mixer.

I then checked on the PA at every Dj switch over and about 1/2 through each dj's set.

2 Dj's maxed out the CD/Line inputs and the Master input on the DJ mixer . ( basically turning every gain up as high as possible )
In my experience the Dubstep step djs are the worst culprits of this. That night both dj's in question played dubstep.


I did not have 1 problem that night with the pa. The limit light never blinked on all night.  I had tons of head room the entire night.

This solves the major headache I get with DJ shows.. 
I even feel a Little bit more comfortable having a semi unattended pa for dj shows



Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on March 05, 2013, 12:43:32 pm
What's more complicated, XLR-TRS adpaters or XLR pads?  It seems like 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.  At least the XLRs lock.  :)

It all depends on the configuration of the inputs on the mixer, but XLR-TRS adapters may be preferable. Reason is that using a pad and going through the XLR input of the mixer may result in greater attenuation and subsequent reamplification of the signal, with the inherent risk of raising the noise floor. Or to look at it on a gain stage graph, there would be a deeper dip in signal strength just before the channel strip.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on March 05, 2013, 01:29:09 pm
As I setup the pa, I tried as some one suggested
 "Use a pair of XLR-TRS adapters and go into line inputs rather than mic inputs"   
This did not lower the level coming into the mixer at all.

The line input should be 20dB lower than the mic input, assuming it's the WZ3 series. The pad should offer another 20dB of attenuation. HOWEVER, if you have the original 16:2 it looks like the TRS is just parallel with the XLR and there's a 30dB pad that affects both. That would explain why there's no difference in level. In this case the additional pad seems to be the best/simplest solution. Exact model numbers at the start would have been helpful (e.g. WZ16:2 rather than "Mixwiz 16" to distinguish it from the WZ3 16:2).
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 05, 2013, 01:31:44 pm
. Exact model numbers at the start would have been helpful (e.g. WZ16:2 rather than "Mixwiz 16" to distinguish it from the WZ3 16:2).

A board is a bored.......
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Nate Armstrong on March 05, 2013, 02:23:54 pm
Exact model numbers at the start would have been helpful (e.g. WZ16:2 rather than "Mixwiz 16" to distinguish it from the WZ3 16:2).

It is the wz3 16:2 about 2 years old.   I have not made any changes to the internal header pins to adjust anything.. it has the factory settings.
Title: Re: Direct box with XLR input
Post by: Patrick Tracy on March 05, 2013, 04:42:35 pm
It is the wz3 16:2 about 2 years old.   I have not made any changes to the internal header pins to adjust anything.. it has the factory settings.

And evidently (rereading the manual) the pad only attenuates the mic input, so that wouldn't have helped on the line input. Padded mic input has the same gain as line input.