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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => DJ Forum => Topic started by: BlakeAnderson on February 05, 2013, 09:20:20 pm

Title: Need Help!!
Post by: BlakeAnderson on February 05, 2013, 09:20:20 pm
Hello,

So were a group of college students that own a company called Static Entertainment LLC. We currently operate in Sioux City, Iowa with plans to branch throughout Iowa, Nebraska, and South Dakota. Currently our companies basic operation is we throw large "night club events"  18+ one night every 3 to 4 months. We have explored the idea of throwing underage events in between our 18+ events as well, using our equipment to do weddings, corporate events, and other events as well. We are looking to buy a system to make this happen. We currently have 10k budgeted. We have the ability to get lights at a discounted rate, therefore that isnt as much of an issues. Our current budget is 4k for lights, (we can get alot of great stuff for the price) 5k for sound and 1k for misc things such as cables. My reason for posting is I have very little knowledge only as much as I can read on speakers and etc. Therefore I'm looking for help to make all of this a reality. Our current event space is 10k sq feet. We have on average 500 people at an event. Any suggestions, in regards to speaker and sub brand, model, type, etc. Also, what type of lights would be best, lasers, intelligent lighting, etc. (There is one brand for lighting we can get so the suggestion for lighting should be the type not brand)

I have attached an event setup visualization for everyone to see.

Please let me know
(http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/141453/width/500/height/1000)




I have linked our company website and Facebook page:

www.static-entertainment.com

http://www.facebook.com/StaticEntertainment

I really appreciate any responses, any suggestions, any help. We just want to make this possible.

Thank You,
Blake Anderson
admin@static-entertainment.com
Static Entertainment LLC.
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Marlow Wilson on February 05, 2013, 10:53:00 pm
Hello,

So were a group of college students that own a company called Static Entertainment LLC. We currently operate in Sioux City, Iowa with plans to branch throughout Iowa, Nebraska, and South Dakota. Currently our companies basic operation is we throw large "night club events"  18+ one night every 3 to 4 months. We have explored the idea of throwing underage events in between our 18+ events as well, using our equipment to do weddings, corporate events, and other events as well. We are looking to buy a system to make this happen. We currently have 10k budgeted. We have the ability to get lights at a discounted rate, therefore that isnt as much of an issues. Our current budget is 4k for lights, (we can get alot of great stuff for the price) 5k for sound and 1k for misc things such as cables. My reason for posting is I have very little knowledge only as much as I can read on speakers and etc. Therefore I'm looking for help to make all of this a reality. Our current event space is 10k sq feet. We have on average 500 people at an event. Any suggestions, in regards to speaker and sub brand, model, type, etc. Also, what type of lights would be best, lasers, intelligent lighting, etc. (There is one brand for lighting we can get so the suggestion for lighting should be the type not brand)

I have attached an event setup visualization for everyone to see.

Please let me know

I have linked our company website and Facebook page:

www.static-entertainment.com

http://www.facebook.com/StaticEntertainment

I really appreciate any responses, any suggestions, any help. We just want to make this possible.

Thank You,
Blake Anderson
admin@static-entertainment.com
Static Entertainment LLC.

Really?

People run 'sound companies' at a financial loss all over the world!  I'd suggest that you hire companies to provide for events until you are profitable.  The advantage is twofold.  First, you can see what equipment works and what doesn't.  Second, if you aren't profitable after paying a sound company, why would you be profitable after becoming the sound company?  If so many sound companies have greater expenses than revenue, how will you reverse that trend by becoming a sound company yourself?

$10,000?  You can't even begin to get what you need to do anything more than a shitty marginal high school dance for $10,000.  It's been way too many years since I've seen a high school dance but that may even be doing an injustice to some of the mobile DJ community!

A couple subs and tops might work fine as a PA for small weddings, corporate Christmas parties and the like, but real night club PA's for 500 people would be closer to $50,000 (at minimum!) than $5,000.

Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on February 06, 2013, 12:46:48 am
500 people though the door @ $10 gives you roughly $5000 income for your shows. You probably get a % of the bar sales on top of that. That is plenty of money to rent out a system. You might even get the rental down some if you haul the gear and have the knowledge to operate it. I do shows almost exaclty like the ones your webpage describes and we always rent out additional gear to supplement the clubs exisiting rig. We've done the math and other than pride of ownership it just doesn't make any sense to own the equipment even doing monthly shows.
Title: Need Help!!
Post by: Brian Larson on February 06, 2013, 01:27:11 am
*facepalm*
Title: Need Help!!
Post by: Randy Culpepper on February 06, 2013, 09:20:58 am
If you decide to check out the bringing in a company side of it, check out Sure Sound and Lighting. They're the ones who do all the production for Awesome Biker Nights. They might even have some gear they would sell you but I don't think you could touch it for your current budget
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 06, 2013, 09:30:14 am
*facepalm*
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on February 06, 2013, 08:11:23 pm
I think you could do a decent job of this with 4 each of..

http://www.long-mcquade.com/?page=products&ProductsID=2708
http://www.long-mcquade.com/products/8035/Pro_Audio_Recording/PA_Cabinets/Yorkville_Sound/LS2100_2400-Watt_21-Inch_Powered_Sub.htm

Bit that's still 3 times your current budget.
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: BlakeAnderson on February 06, 2013, 10:57:57 pm
You know, I really expected a better response from everyone. I mean regardless I appreciate responses period. But, the bashing? Come on now. Its one thing to say, "Hey, its not going to work. Not big enough budget." Its another to just bash what were trying to buy and do. I'd expect a more friendly response from any community. I do appreciate you Len with the email and atleast Paul gave some value in his response. Either respond with some value added or dont respond. Thanks.
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Marlow Wilson on February 07, 2013, 12:41:53 am
...other than pride of ownership it just doesn't make any sense to own the equipment even doing monthly shows.

That pretty much captures my sentiment.  I do know some successful promoters that own some backline (whether for DJ's or bands), powered speakers to use as wedges, DJ monitors, fill, micro-events, etc.  All this is cost effective.

One caveat may be that there isn't a company in your area or the ones in operation are too expensive or ill-equipped.  You might take that as an indication of the underlying market to support your proposed endeavour though.

Because the replies have been so negative, I'll play devils advocate...

For $5000, I've sold some items in the past that could have been assembled into a useable 'bigger than SOS' PA:

4 Yorkville EF500p's - $2500 (self powered)
4 Yorkville LS908's - $1350
1 QSC 4050HD with case - $750

Which leaves $400 for a some Chinese cables and maybe a really cheap DSP?

No where near 'night club' level or quality for 500, but it beats what you'd get at the music store for the same money.

It's still not really a great idea though, and you've still got storage, transport, insurance, and a bunch of other stuff to think of.

You know, I really expected a better response from everyone. I mean regardless I appreciate responses period. But, the bashing? Come on now. Its one thing to say, "Hey, its not going to work. Not big enough budget." Its another to just bash what were trying to buy and do. I'd expect a more friendly response from any community. I do appreciate you Len with the email and atleast Paul gave some value in his response. Either respond with some value added or dont respond. Thanks.

Hi Blake,

You'll find that one disadvantage with forums is you have to take the advice whether you like it or not.  I actually had the post above sitting on an open tab in my browser and was waiting to add some more info.  Anyways, the long and short of it is that there is a HUGE range of expectations.  What one client thinks is incredible, another finds completely unacceptable. 

I do one annual electronic music event on a boat with 900 people.  The boat has several levels but it's basically two 'stages' (putting it close to your 500 person number).  The production cost for sound for the four hour event approaches what you've proposed investing for your entire PA.  We have four loaders for the in and out and two techs for the duration of the event.  The previous company did the event with a bunch of little powered speakers plus some powered subs and it was completely inadequate.  In the past several years we've used everything from old Turbosound Floodlight, Community SLS960's, and EAW KF650e's plus lots of subs.  This is all older gear, but it's miles ahead of what a little speaker on a tripod will do.  The organizers of the event wanted the 'authentic' EDM experience of a professional PA and we delivered it.  None of the Yorkville stuff mentioned above would be adequate for the job and I simply wouldn't use it for the application.  The question for you as a promoter is what is 'good enough' for you?  Can you provide that safely and profitably?  We can't really answer that question for you....
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 07, 2013, 09:23:35 am
500 people though the door @ $10 gives you roughly $5000 income for your shows.

And you use that to pay for:

The room.
Security.
Insurance.
Labor.
Sound and other rental.
Publicity.

And I'm sure I've forgotten something........
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Marlow Wilson on February 07, 2013, 11:00:49 am
And I'm sure I've forgotten something........

You need pay the talent and feed them Grey Goose, and with any luck a little bit of it is left over as well (i.e. profit!).

You also need to contend with the fact that you might sell less than 500 tickets.  Long ago I used to invest in and promote shows at a 2000 person venue in Montreal, the profits can be solid but the losses can also be staggering!
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on February 07, 2013, 11:26:44 am
You need pay the talent ...

That alone can easily cost $1k-$2k with travel and accommodation. Somehow we make it work. The OP from his web page looks like he has more than a couple shows under his belt so I'm sure he's aware of the risks involved, yet he still wants to invest $10k in gear, he must be doing something right. I'm not sure how much they drink in Iowa but in Alberta 500 people will ring out $18k in liqour sales, a % of which can cover most of the expenses. In the end you win some and lose some, its all part of the game.

However the OP never came here looking for promoting advise, he came here looking for advise on gear. We all started our audio journey somewhere and we should be encouraging the guy even if the sticker shock is a bit higher than he originally had in mind. Some solid reccomendations on some quality used gear out there might get him closer to his goals.


Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: BlakeAnderson on February 07, 2013, 01:25:57 pm
That alone can easily cost $1k-$2k with travel and accommodation. Somehow we make it work. The OP from his web page looks like he has more than a couple shows under his belt so I'm sure he's aware of the risks involved, yet he still wants to invest $10k in gear, he must be doing something right. I'm not sure how much they drink in Iowa but in Alberta 500 people will ring out $18k in liqour sales, a % of which can cover most of the expenses. In the end you win some and lose some, its all part of the game.

However the OP never came here looking for promoting advise, he came here looking for advise on gear. We all started our audio journey somewhere and we should be encouraging the guy even if the sticker shock is a bit higher than he originally had in mind. Some solid reccomendations on some quality used gear out there might get him closer to his goals.


Len,

I appreciate it. I'm glad you see what I seek. Marlow your new post adds value and I appreciate it. I have done a few shows now and I know all of the risks involved. I stated we have on average 500 people. I am certainly glad I didnt come here when I first started out. I understand you want to point out all of the things involved but for all the future replies you'll make to others. Don't try to scare off people. Honestly. I mean if I came here before I started I might of never started it. I do appreciate everyone that has added value and made some response that was applicable to my request. I need to know what kind of equipment I can get for a price close to that. Brand etc. Also, I have 6k for sound. Anything helpful that would help point me in the direction I would appreciate it. I've gotten a few reference to this maker and would like everyones opinion. http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/

Thanks
Title: Re: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Jay Barracato on February 07, 2013, 03:26:47 pm

Len,

I appreciate it. I'm glad you see what I seek. Marlow your new post adds value and I appreciate it. I have done a few shows now and I know all of the risks involved. I stated we have on average 500 people. I am certainly glad I didnt come here when I first started out. I understand you want to point out all of the things involved but for all the future replies you'll make to others. Don't try to scare off people. Honestly. I mean if I came here before I started I might of never started it. I do appreciate everyone that has added value and made some response that was applicable to my request. I need to know what kind of equipment I can get for a price close to that. Brand etc. Also, I have 6k for sound. Anything helpful that would help point me in the direction I would appreciate it. I've gotten a few reference to this maker and would like everyones opinion. http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/

Thanks

Here is a reality check.

Using the bfm boxes is usually a quick way to go from hundreds of patrons to tens of patrons.

While your intent may be sound and you may have some good events under your belt, your initial budget is so far off mark that you got the full range of replies

I would suggest a little market research. What equipment do other clubs in your area use for the same size crowds?

Once you can post more specific questions about specific gear, then you will get more specific answers.

I will give you a starting point. A club I work on fairly regularly has 4 jbl VP boxes for mains, 4 more subs and 5 smaller for fills. Just for what the crowd hears. The rooms capacity is about 300.
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 07, 2013, 04:18:55 pm

Len,

I appreciate it. I'm glad you see what I seek. Marlow your new post adds value and I appreciate it. I have done a few shows now and I know all of the risks involved. I stated we have on average 500 people. I am certainly glad I didnt come here when I first started out. I understand you want to point out all of the things involved but for all the future replies you'll make to others. Don't try to scare off people. Honestly. I mean if I came here before I started I might of never started it. I do appreciate everyone that has added value and made some response that was applicable to my request. I need to know what kind of equipment I can get for a price close to that. Brand etc. Also, I have 6k for sound. Anything helpful that would help point me in the direction I would appreciate it. I've gotten a few reference to this maker and would like everyones opinion. http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/

Thanks

Another vote against bfm boxes.  They might make a decent home stereo, but for what you're looking to do they are almost a total waste.

I believe you should really do some hard research in your area to find the best deal on renting an appropriate system.  The benefits are that in doing this you will educate yourself on what really works for you with out buying something that won't do the job and that you won't have to be responsible for storage, maintenance, repairs, etc.

Build the cost of gear hire into your business model.  Make the business pay for the cost of doing business.  At this stage of the game (learning), you'll be $$$ ahead in not learning from your mistakes.  Buying the wrong thing is just like throwing your money down the toilet.  Renting the wrong thing......not so much.  You won't be stuck with unsalable (and possibly damaged) gear if you rent/hire.

If you really want to own your own stuff and have the RIGHT stuff, you're going to have to spend significantly more than you're thinking of at this point. 
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 28, 2013, 09:34:29 am
Hi Blake-

I have a couple of pontifications (I hear there's a job opening that way, too)...

Just because you don't like some of the advice doesn't mean the advice is wrong, mean spirited or a bashing.  Far from it.

Buy once, cry once:  the wrong product at the right price is still the wrong product.

Now I'll take off the pointy hat...

I've been in the audio field for over 35 years (actually goes back to grade school, but that's another post) and the products have gotten better and better, the ease of implementing technology continues to progress and the training and knowledge availability surpasses anything seen before.  What hasn't changed much is the Cost of Entry at any particular "level", but we get more/better/smaller/lighter for our money.

You need to decide what level of guest experience you want to deliver at your events and then take an honest look at the production necessary to deliver that experience.

For those playing along, take a good look at Blake's diagram.  He's only covering about 7000sf in a 9800sf gallery.  Still a big space, but less than I first presumed when I glanced at the diagram.

Finally, about BFM.  Don't do it unless you have a desire to pursue a woodworking hobby.  Your money and time will be better spent on the right commercial products for your commercial endeavor.
Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Rob Gow on March 20, 2013, 07:58:34 am
I think you could do a decent job of this with 4 each of..

http://www.long-mcquade.com/?page=products&ProductsID=2708
http://www.long-mcquade.com/products/8035/Pro_Audio_Recording/PA_Cabinets/Yorkville_Sound/LS2100_2400-Watt_21-Inch_Powered_Sub.htm

Bit that's still 3 times your current budget.

It would cost $280 to rent all these for a Saturday from Long & McQuade. As mentioned, besides pride of ownership, renting makes a lot of sense.

Title: Re: Need Help!!
Post by: Brad Weber on March 20, 2013, 09:06:32 am
I'd expect a more friendly response from any community. I do appreciate you Len with the email and atleast Paul gave some value in his response. Either respond with some value added or dont respond. Thanks.
I am certainly glad I didnt come here when I first started out. I understand you want to point out all of the things involved but for all the future replies you'll make to others. Don't try to scare off people.
You came here asking for input, do you think telling others with more experience how they should or should not respond is going to help you?  Some responding may speak from direct experience while others may have had to compete with companies that tried it and have seen how it affected not just that company but the market in general.  You're talking about doing this as a business and potentially one competing with or affecting some of the people you're asking for help, so you be ready to face a harsh dose of reality.

Along those lines, if you want to develop wedding and corporate business you may want to consider changing your website.  You may believe photos and videos of someone dancing barefoot while standing on the railing of a raised platform shows how much fun people have at your events but a wedding or event planner, venue manager, etc. may see that as an accident and lawsuit waiting to happen.  And if someone ever did get hurt that way those could really come back to haunt you.

On a more directly relevant aspect, you say you want to expand into "weddings, corporate events, and other events as well" and those can mean bands, AV presentations, higher finish spaces, etc.  That in turn means live sound mixers, multiple microphones, wireless mics, stage monitors, projectors, multiple system configurations, tech riders and so on.  It also means having people who can properly setup and operate those systems in those situations.  Have you considered that in your budget number?

I need to know what kind of equipment I can get for a price close to that. Brand etc. Also, I have 6k for sound.
Some questions you hopefully have already asked yourself:

How did you develop the budget?  Did you identify the desired experience for your potential clients, determine what would be required to delver that experience and then assess how much that would cost?  Did you perform any cost/benefit analysis?  Or did you reach behind and pull a number out of a dark orifice?

What is the situation?  By your own admission you do not understand the technical side, so who is going to be responsible for configuring, setting up and maintaining the gear?  What you have used in the past, what do you currently own and what does the $5k-$6k budget have to cover.  Might tech riders be relevant now or as you expand and how may that affect equipment choices?  Are there any requirements related to storage and transportation of the gear?

Your focusing on a seemingly random budget number and not providing much other relevant information is probably what is driving many of the responses.

Anything helpful that would help point me in the direction I would appreciate it. I've gotten a few reference to this maker and would like everyones opinion. http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/ (http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/)
Bill is not a "maker", he offers some speaker designs you can purchase to then build or have built.  Even if you were happy with them, this is also where factors such as tech riders or name brand recognition could be relevant for your potential clients.