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Title: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on January 30, 2013, 11:16:50 am
Here are two new pages on my website which explain how I programmed a Riedel Artist system.

The first shows how a 2-wire RTS beltpack system can be connected to a 4-wire circuit without using a Hybrid
http://www.bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/no_hybrid_4-wire_interface_for_rts.pdf (http://www.bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/no_hybrid_4-wire_interface_for_rts.pdf)

The second shows how to program a Riedel Artist system to easily connect and disconnect a port from a Party line.
http://www.bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/turning_on_and_off_pl_inputs.pdf (http://www.bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/turning_on_and_off_pl_inputs.pdf)

Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Neil White on January 30, 2013, 12:53:09 pm
Hi Pete,

That's a neat way to get four wire audio from a 2 channel beltpack.

I have a question regarding the global PL channel that is being sent over fibre. Since it is one feed being fed to all of the sites, I assume it must have all 8 of the RTS talk channels in it. How does this sound to a user at one of the sites? For example, a user at site 1 talks on channel 1 of their beltpack. This is heard locally through all the other beltpacks and through sidetone. This signal is sent to the main site over fibre, through the Artist matrix and back through the fibre path to channel 2 of the RTS beltpacks. Were there any issues with the latency of this audio path causing an echo for users on the local systems? I would imagine this could be avoided if there was a separate send to each of the remote sites because they could listen to the main sites and all of the other remotes minus their own contribution.

It looks like you are using Artist 1100 series panels and Director 6.5. How are you finding the new OLED keys?

Neil
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on January 30, 2013, 08:47:03 pm
Hi Pete,

That's a neat way to get four wire audio from a 2 channel beltpack.

I have a question regarding the global PL channel that is being sent over fibre. Since it is one feed being fed to all of the sites, I assume it must have all 8 of the RTS talk channels in it. How does this sound to a user at one of the sites? For example, a user at site 1 talks on channel 1 of their beltpack. This is heard locally through all the other beltpacks and through sidetone. This signal is sent to the main site over fibre, through the Artist matrix and back through the fibre path to channel 2 of the RTS beltpacks. Were there any issues with the latency of this audio path causing an echo for users on the local systems? I would imagine this could be avoided if there was a separate send to each of the remote sites because they could listen to the main sites and all of the other remotes minus their own contribution.

It looks like you are using Artist 1100 series panels and Director 6.5. How are you finding the new OLED keys?

Neil

The outbound listen to pl port is duplicated by fiber in all locations.

Each site's inbound fiber is switched into talk to the PL.

The fiber imbed/deimbed system did all noticeable latency which was heard at low level at the RTS end.

If we could have gotten a true 4 wire from each site that would have been a better way.

I like the new panel displays, except that because they are OLED the panel goes into screensaver mode after a few minutes.  I find that annoying.  It is cute to be able to put ICONS on the label but not nice enough to make the panel better than the old led one.  Also the OLED cannot be read as well in direct sunlight.
Title: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: TonyWilliams on January 30, 2013, 11:53:34 pm
Pete, do you build the wet RTS to audio boxes? If so, what transformer do you use? I was looking at building a box or two.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Neil White on January 31, 2013, 04:37:30 am
If we could have gotten a true 4 wire from each site that would have been a better way.

It sounds like an ideal scenario for an Intracom VCOM set up.

In the no hybrid 4 wire interface paper you mention the limitations of multiple hybrids in one PL. In your experience is there a rule of thumb as to how many 4wire - 2wire conversions it is ok to have on one PL before the symptoms of poor nulling become noticeable? I guess this is dependent on the quality of the hybrid units used. Are the Studio Technologies 4w-2w units the best in the market at the moment?

It looks like Director 6.5 has some nice improvements from earlier versions, especially the improved copy function and the ability to edit names directly in the ports and conference lists. Have these changes made the system quicker to program?

Neil


Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 31, 2013, 08:41:57 am
Pete, do you build the wet RTS to audio boxes? If so, what transformer do you use? I was looking at building a box or two.

Check to downloads page link at the bottom of Pete's web page. He has a lot of comm adapters and tricks there.

Mac
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on January 31, 2013, 12:45:42 pm
Pete, do you build the wet RTS to audio boxes? If so, what transformer do you use? I was looking at building a box or two.

I do.  Here is the design and parts list. 
http://bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/Wireless_intercom_ground_iso_simple.pdf (http://bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/Wireless_intercom_ground_iso_simple.pdf)

I do not have the PC boards any more but you can build it on a perf board.

Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on January 31, 2013, 12:51:05 pm
It sounds like an ideal scenario for an Intracom VCOM set up.

In the no hybrid 4 wire interface paper you mention the limitations of multiple hybrids in one PL. In your experience is there a rule of thumb as to how many 4wire - 2wire conversions it is ok to have on one PL before the symptoms of poor nulling become noticeable? I guess this is dependent on the quality of the hybrid units used. Are the Studio Technologies 4w-2w units the best in the market at the moment?

It looks like Director 6.5 has some nice improvements from earlier versions, especially the improved copy function and the ability to edit names directly in the ports and conference lists. Have these changes made the system quicker to program?

Neil

2-3 is about the maximum number of Hybrids on the same PL.

Studio Technologies are probably the best.  The hybrids built into the Tempest wireless are better in that they also incorporate echo cancelling which removes the last vestige of leakage.

I do like the spreadsheet ability in 6.5 which makes it much easier to make the names consistent.  But my favorite feature is the ability to lock the Headset/speaker button and the shift button.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Henry Cohen on January 31, 2013, 08:56:19 pm
Here are two new pages on my website which explain how I programmed a Riedel Artist system.

The first shows how a 2-wire RTS beltpack system can be connected to a 4-wire circuit without using a Hybrid
http://www.bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/no_hybrid_4-wire_interface_for_rts.pdf (http://www.bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/no_hybrid_4-wire_interface_for_rts.pdf)

The second shows how to program a Riedel Artist system to easily connect and disconnect a port from a Party line.
http://www.bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/turning_on_and_off_pl_inputs.pdf (http://www.bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/turning_on_and_off_pl_inputs.pdf)

So what am I missing? The headset connector is a 4-wire in/out. Just turn down the sidetone.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on January 31, 2013, 09:07:46 pm
So what am I missing? The headset connector is a 4-wire in/out. Just turn down the sidetone.

It still is a hybrid and even with the sidetone off there is enough leakage to cause ringing if you had more than 3 on the same circuit.  BY separating the send RX to different channels they never mix at all.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Jim Roach on February 15, 2013, 08:03:29 pm
I do.  Here is the design and parts list. 
http://bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/Wireless_intercom_ground_iso_simple.pdf (http://bestaudio.com/_private/downloads/Wireless_intercom_ground_iso_simple.pdf)

I do not have the PC boards any more but you can build it on a perf board.

You don't happen to have a picture showing how you cram all that into such a small box, do you?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 16, 2013, 09:30:13 am
a picture showing how you cram all that into such a small box

This version is wired as an audio only box.  The switch position is where I could convert it to an Intercom ISO box.
(http://bestaudio.com/images/AO-ISP%20Pix/AO4.gif)

On the bottom the position of the switch and the cable strain relief.
(http://bestaudio.com/images/AO-ISP%20Pix/AO3.gif)

(http://bestaudio.com/images/AO-ISP%20Pix/AO2.gif)

These transformers are a little too tall for case so the board mounts upside down.
(http://bestaudio.com/images/AO-ISP%20Pix/AO1.gif)

My next version is built to have both in the same box. The pc board is shown with 4 connections"
Comm wet
BTR ISO
A audio only
B audio only

(http://bestaudio.com/images/AO-ISP%20Pix/web%20drawing%20ao-iso.gif)
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Jim Roach on February 16, 2013, 11:51:49 am
This version is wired as an audio only box.

Thanks Pete. I figured you must have been using pigtails. Any reason you prefer using pigtails over chassis mount XLR's?
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 16, 2013, 02:47:22 pm
Thanks Pete. I figured you must have been using pigtails. Any reason you prefer using pigtails over chassis mount XLR's?

Besides the obvious "you don't need another mic cable to patch"? Chassis mount also means a bigger box. Since they are functionally equivalent I think it is a matter of personal preference.

Mac
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 16, 2013, 03:32:52 pm
Any reason you prefer using pigtails over chassis mount XLR's?

Mac is right - pigtails are more useful and can squeze in a corner of my workbox.  Additionally, I have found that PCB mount XLR's do not attach well to the PCB and break off.  They require metal work to mount them and are definitely not KISS.  The box I use is standard from Radio Shack (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062279)  and easy to make holes in with a Dremel Rotary tool.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Jens Palm Bacher on February 16, 2013, 04:13:18 pm
Mac is right - pigtails are more useful and can squeze in a corner of my workbox.  Additionally, I have found that PCB mount XLR's do not attach well to the PCB and break off.  They require metal work to mount them and are definitely not KISS.  The box I use is standard from Radio Shack (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062279)  and easy to make holes in with a Dremel Rotary tool.
Should you ever have to build boxes with chassis mount connectors i can recommened this model from Canford Audio: http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/49-599_UNIVERSAL-EXTRUDED-BOX
I normally try to use connectors with Krone og solder termination and then use a short jumper wire to the PCB.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 16, 2013, 04:43:38 pm
Canford Audio: http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/49-599_UNIVERSAL-EXTRUDED-BOX

Nice source, Thanks.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Neil White on February 16, 2013, 05:09:55 pm
Nice source, Thanks.

These are the same boxes as used in the original design TecPro intercom beltpacks and accessories. In my experience they are very hard wearing and have some nice features like the replaceable bezels that protect the end panels and can be colour coded.

Neil
Title: parts for audio only and icom iso
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 17, 2013, 12:00:28 pm
I am revising this list - the transformers I have used in the past are Mouser Tamura TTC-108N (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Tamura/TTC-108N/?qs=N2XN0KY4UWV4ikvPgSk88Q==) but have BW of 300-3K.  I found one with a BW of 300-100K that I am getting to test.    I'll post after testing it as well as a link to buy the PC board.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 17, 2013, 12:07:58 pm
You don't happen to have a picture showing how you cram all that into such a small box, do you?

There is another comm guru who sells the ISO only version of this in a smaller box with connectors mounted on the box for about $75.00.   Audioman (http://steve1mac.blogspot.com/search/label/AudioMan%20ISO%20Box).  They work well.  They are small but need xlr cables to use.  It really should have been built in a case like the IL-19. 
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Neil White on February 17, 2013, 01:50:35 pm
There is another comm guru who sells the ISO only version of this in a smaller box with connectors mounted on the box for about $75.00.

Hi Pete,

Have you come across the Model 72 from Studio Technologies? http://www.studio-tech.com/product_m72.html

I'm sure they are a more expensive alternative but are another option for dual channel audio ISO box.

Neil
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 17, 2013, 03:44:48 pm
Have you come across the Model 72 from Studio Technologies? http://www.studio-tech.com/product_m72.html

Yes, I was given a gift of one my Mr. Kapes, the designer and owner of Studio Technologies.  It is the epitome of a great Audio only box.  It has meters and a loop through wet comm side.  Mr Kapes really has the corner on the best intercom interface equipment bar none.  Here is the Model 72 listing at $245.00
(http://www.studio-tech.com/photos/int_ifb/m72_fb_1000.jpg)

The hybrids are astounding and have features that make them more than just a hybrid, like built in comm power supplies.  My favorite is the Model 47 with 2 independent hybrids with power on both pins 2 and 3.  Pair a couple of these with an RTS 1620 dialup and you have a terrific remote box.
(http://www.studio-tech.com/photos/int_ifb/m47_f_2000.jpg)
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Jim Roach on February 17, 2013, 06:31:43 pm
Pete, thanks for sharing all the options and info. Since all I really need is a Clearcom iso only box, I think I'll build one using a Neutrik NA housing. A little pricey, but small and could be used without cables.

Neutrik NA housing (http://www.neutrik.us/en-us/accessories/modules/na-housing)  Male connector (http://www.neutrik.us/en-us/accessories/modules/nm3md-b)   Female connector (http://www.neutrik.us/en-us/accessories/modules/nm3fd-b)

(http://bilder.x-side-gbr.de/bilder/neutrik/produkte/nahousing.jpg)
(http://www.jltdistribution.nl/images/producten/420x360-r/nm-3-md-b.jpg)(http://www.canford.co.uk/images/itemimages/130square/40-391_01.jpg)
Title: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: TonyWilliams on February 17, 2013, 10:41:12 pm
There is another comm guru who sells the ISO only version of this in a smaller box with connectors mounted on the box for about $75.00.   Audioman (http://steve1mac.blogspot.com/search/label/AudioMan%20ISO%20Box).  They work well.  They are small but need xlr cables to use.  It really should have been built in a case like the IL-19.

That looks very nice, and for a decent price too. I'll have to get a pair.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 18, 2013, 10:57:42 am
Pete, thanks for sharing all the options and info. Since all I really need is a Clearcom iso only box, I think I'll build one using a Neutrik NA housing.

Thanks for sharing this box info.  This is what the Audioman should have been built in.
Title: Re: Interfacing RTS 2-wire to a 4-wire system without using a Hybrid
Post by: Steve McCarthy on August 16, 2016, 09:38:19 pm
There is another comm guru who sells the ISO only version of this in a smaller box with connectors mounted on the box for about $75.00.   Audioman (http://steve1mac.blogspot.com/search/label/AudioMan%20ISO%20Box).  They work well.  They are small but need xlr cables to use.  It really should have been built in a case like the IL-19.
I tried several configurations and ended up with the box you are all familiar with. I was torn between superior audio quality and convenient size. The AudioMan ISO Box would have been more than twice the size if I had used 1" transformers which would handle frequencies down to 10Hz. The " transformers I use in the ISO Box are 3db down at 16Hz. I tried extended male couplers in an extruded aluminum case to simulate the simplicity of the IL-19 but the box was way too heavy for the XLR connecter to support.

I hope you all like the product I manufacturer. It solves problems for intercoms as well as line level interface. I just can't get it any smaller to be practical as a straight inline adapter.

Steve McCarthy
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 16, 2016, 10:19:08 pm
I tried several configurations and ended up with the box you are all familiar with.

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac