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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Samuel Rees on January 24, 2013, 12:27:11 pm

Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 24, 2013, 12:27:11 pm
http://g-forceproaudio.com/2013/01/23/soundcraft-si-expression/

More info on the 'Soundcraft mixing consoles' Facebook. It looks to me like they took the Si Compact, improved it, and slashed the price by 60%, and released it as a "new" console, along with a few new option cards and cheap stage boxes. Seems like this is going to clearly destroy all resale value of Si Compacts down to the at least <$1800 range. My Apple products hold resale price better than that... disappointing.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: David Parker on January 24, 2013, 12:33:56 pm
http://g-forceproaudio.com/2013/01/23/soundcraft-si-expression/

More info on the 'Soundcraft mixing consoles' Facebook. It looks to me like they took the Si Compact, improved it, and slashed the price by 60%, and released it as a "new" console, along with a few new option cards and cheap stage boxes. Seems like this is going to clearly destroy all resale value of Si Compacts down to the at least <$1800 range. My Apple products hold resale price better than that... disappointing.

and it has turnarounds for use as a monitor split
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on January 24, 2013, 12:39:11 pm
thats mighty interesting, unless there is a major software difference... thats a bad move for Soundcraft for its customers.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Ryan McLeod on January 24, 2013, 12:41:56 pm
http://g-forceproaudio.com/2013/01/23/soundcraft-si-expression/

More info on the 'Soundcraft mixing consoles' Facebook. It looks to me like they took the Si Compact, improved it, and slashed the price by 60%, and released it as a "new" console, along with a few new option cards and cheap stage boxes. Seems like this is going to clearly destroy all resale value of Si Compacts down to the at least <$1800 range. My Apple products hold resale price better than that... disappointing.

Very disappointing - I like the new cards for recording, but my Compact Stage Box with MADI and a few of my SI-compacts just became redundant.
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 24, 2013, 12:52:10 pm
My biggest reason for purchasing the Si Compact, when I likely could have accomplished my business goals with a lesser desk, was to provide a platform for learning on higher end digital desks. I figured that after 1-2 years I'd asses were I am in terms of business needs, skills, and etc and decide I either keep or resell the desk and get something else based on what I've learned. Surprise - what I really learned is never to depend on resale when buying a product. It's still a good desk, but Soundcraft obviously is willing to ankle bite their own customers!
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 24, 2013, 12:57:09 pm
PS - Presonus must be lonely at NAMM.
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 24, 2013, 01:11:37 pm
"Starting at $2500 US MAP"
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Gary Weller on January 24, 2013, 01:41:15 pm
"Starting at $2500 US MAP"

Any ideas/guesses to what the digital snake will run?
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 24, 2013, 02:41:39 pm
Your guess is as good as mine, I got that MAP from their Facebook page.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on January 24, 2013, 04:19:03 pm
It does look nice. Room on the left for an Ipad type device. Built in wifi or ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlU7Stq__c8

Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Brian Wilkinson on January 24, 2013, 04:44:13 pm
Looks like I picked the wrong week to think about selling mine!
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 24, 2013, 05:24:17 pm
It does look nice. Room on the left for an Ipad type device. Built in wifi or ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlU7Stq__c8

Douglas R. Allen

It's exactly like an Si Compact, which has been out for a long time u fortunately. It's barely a new product, mostly a price drop.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 24, 2013, 06:19:00 pm
It's exactly like an Si Compact, which has been out for a long time u fortunately. It's barely a new product, mostly a price drop.

Still no scribble strips. I like the performer better, but honestly I'm not in love with any of the compact line.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: kristianjohnsen on January 24, 2013, 06:48:18 pm
Very disappointing - I like the new cards for recording, but my Compact Stage Box with MADI and a few of my SI-compacts just became redundant.

Would you rather Soundcraft made themselves redundant?  What would THAT do for second-hand prices, not to mention factory support?

If anyone is still in doubt:  The X-32 has in fact turned out to be a game-changer in it's segment!
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 24, 2013, 09:40:16 pm
The rack mount is definately a game changer. As a matter of fact it would be right at home next to my APB Pro House. Regardless, Soundcraft is a name I trust for quality and support, and that for me puts it in a league above everything else in it's class at this point in time.

http://soundtechuk.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Ryan McLeod on January 24, 2013, 09:45:06 pm
Any ideas/guesses to what the digital snake will run?

16x8 MAP$899
32x16 MAP $1299
+the MADI card for your desk
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 24, 2013, 09:49:18 pm
Here is a better link to the product line.
http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=191
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Gary Weller on January 24, 2013, 10:00:36 pm
16x8 MAP$899
32x16 MAP $1299
+the MADI card for your desk

Nice. Behringer needs to step up and offer a 32x16 stagebox.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Nicolas Poisson on January 25, 2013, 04:33:50 am
I do not understand why people keep complaining about resale price each time a new product is released. And I even do not understand why they complain as if it was a new phenomenon.

People complain that digital desks made the price of good old but huge  analogue desks drop. People complain that the GLD-80 made the price of the SI-compact drop. People complain that the X32 made the price of all similar previous desks drop. etc.

But do you really care ? I mean, except the fact to self-convince that manufacturers are bad guys, except the pleasure to enjoy frustration of having paid so high an already outdated product, what does it change to your daily life ?

To me there are two approaches:
- either you are a week-end warrior (like me), you bought a SI-C last year and you planed to be use it for about a decade whatever new product are released. You knew that when you bought the console. The features brought by new products are sexy, but they do not justify a new investment because your needs are not that high and your current desk is OK. So you do not need to complain about resale price because you never thought you would resale it. Or if you resale it, this is after ten years and you knew the price will be really low anyway.
- Or you are a real pro and you think in terms of return of investment. The contracts you have cover the console price. When you no longer need the desk, you resale it but you do not mind the price because this is just "slighltly more money". You did not build your business profitability based on the resale price of gears.

But how many of you guys are week-end warriors rich enough to change your desk as often as cellphones ? Only those may suffer from low resale price.

Behringer made Soundcraft to cut the SI-C price (basically, this is no more than that). Great news for new customers.

Plus, be happy that the X32 and SL recording feature made soundcraft to release a USB/Firewire card. And be happy that Soundcraft engineers were clever engough to build all the SI-series on a common base that makes this new card compatible with older products.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Brad Weber on January 25, 2013, 08:02:06 am
I do not understand why people keep complaining about resale price each time a new product is released. And I even do not understand why they complain as if it was a new phenomenon.

People complain that digital desks made the price of good old but huge  analogue desks drop. People complain that the GLD-80 made the price of the SI-compact drop. People complain that the X32 made the price of all similar previous desks drop. etc.

But do you really care ? I mean, except the fact to self-convince that manufacturers are bad guys, except the pleasure to enjoy frustration of having paid so high an already outdated product, what does it change to your daily life ?
I think people who make purchases as part of a business do care as it changes some of the fiscal dynamics of those purchases.  Purchases may have included the expected value should you ever want to upgrade, liquidate, etc.  Creditors look at your inventory and consider its resale value.  Compensation if existing gear is stolen or damaged is affected can be based on current value.  And so on, a rapid drop in resale value can have numerous direct implications.
 
The box is open and it will probably stay open, but it does change things and that is understandably frustrating for those caught in the transition.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Gary Fitzpatrick on January 25, 2013, 09:01:26 am
anyone got an idea on the pricing on the UK side of the pond??
Title: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: jason misterka on January 25, 2013, 09:05:47 am

- Or you are a real pro and you think in terms of return of investment. The contracts you have cover the console price. When you no longer need the desk, you resale it but you do not mind the price because this is just "slighltly more money". You did not build your business profitability based on the resale price of gears.


This is incorrect.

Not every piece of equipment we buy is able to entirely fund itself without accounting for resale value.  Even if you gig four days a week year round, not all of your equipment works every gig.

The only way small and mid-sized regional companies can afford to maintain a competitive upgrade cycle is to buy equipment at the absolute lowest cost possible and then resell it used for, hopefully, 75% of that cost.

Predictability of resale is an important factor in our decision making.  The analog blood-letting was hard on us.  If the future of all equipment purchases, especially consoles, follows suit, I predict a lot less purchasing and a lot more renting to meet riders.  Not always a bad thing itself but may mean the manufactures sell less consoles :) At least to us.

Jason
Title: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 25, 2013, 09:14:09 am
This is incorrect.

Not every piece of equipment we buy is able to entirely fund itself without accounting for resale value.  Even if you gig four days a week year round, not all of your equipment works every gig.

The only way small and mid-sized regional companies can afford to maintain a competitive upgrade cycle is to buy equipment at the absolute lowest cost possible and then resell it used for, hopefully, 75% of that cost.

Predictability of resale is an important factor in our decision making.  The analog blood-letting was hard on us.  If the future of all equipment purchases, especially consoles, follows suit, I predict a lot less purchasing and a lot more renting to meet riders.  Not always a bad thing itself but may mean the manufactures sell less consoles :) At least to us.

Jason

If your business equipment isn't paying for itself without resale, you're in the wrong business.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: jason misterka on January 25, 2013, 09:34:38 am
If your business equipment isn't paying for itself without resale, you're in the wrong business.

Maybe so. I didn't say all of our equipment doesn't but some if it doesn't.  If we didn't have to meet riders with a new greatest and latest it would be much easier.  You also must be in a different market segment. 

Title: Re: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 25, 2013, 09:48:34 am
Maybe so. I didn't say all of our equipment doesn't but some if it doesn't.  If we didn't have to meet riders with a new greatest and latest it would be much easier.  You also must be in a different market segment.

Are you not counting the depreciation on your taxes?  I know it's not income, but being able to amortize the cost of the gear over time should be factored into the equation.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Grant Conklin on January 25, 2013, 10:44:09 am
16x8 MAP$899
32x16 MAP $1299
+the MADI card for your desk

Ryan - where did these #'s come from?  My rep told me $999 and $1999.  The MADI card is $990 MAP.  I really wish the snakes were Blu-Link, not MADI.  With only one expansion port, blu-link would give you a snake, DBX personal monitor mixing, and connectivity to BSS London all in one. 

Grant
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 25, 2013, 11:14:24 am
In regards to resale price, I think to some extent that you are right I shouldn't be depending on resale price. I've learned lesson here, I'm young at this and I've got a lot to learn.

That said - I'm not happy with Soundcraft. Tech is tech - I get it. I don't get upset when my iPhone and my MacBook Pro go down in value the next year when the new stuff is released, I understand what kind of business that is. I was not mad when they dropped the price of the SiC the first time either, it was reasonable and I understood why.

But what has happened here is quite unique. To release a console that is essentially the same except better, at 50% of the price, is something not even Apple does. Imagine if they upgraded the GLD and put it on sale for $4,250 including stagebox? That's more than a market adjustment it's downright manipulative. To allow your customers to invest in a product you know you will immediately undercut? Fair or not, Yamaha isn't doing it, Allen Heath isn't doing it, not even Presonus is doing it.
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 25, 2013, 11:21:56 am
Ryan - where did these #'s come from?  My rep told me $999 and $1999.  The MADI card is $990 MAP.  I really wish the snakes were Blu-Link, not MADI.  With only one expansion port, blu-link would give you a snake, DBX personal monitor mixing, and connectivity to BSS London all in one. 

Grant

I can see how Blu-link would be good, but I think the MADI is to remain consistent with their other stage boxes and I imagine that quite important to them.   
Title: Re: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Nicolas Poisson on January 25, 2013, 11:23:57 am
Mmmm... What used gear can be hopefuly sold 75% of its price new ? As soon as you open the box, the gear loses 50% of its price. I bought many things second hand, including L'acoustics MTD115 speakers, Chevin and Camco amps, etc. This is pro and renowned gear. I paid 25-50% of the initial street price (typically 1/3rd). And this is not a question of gear being outdated: MTD115 are still very common where I live.

In case the product is "as new" and only 2 years old you might expect 2/3rd of the price. But "as new" means you almost did not use it, and you resale it for that reason. Basically, you mistook at buying the gear (it happens).

Pro people I know apply a depreciation of 20% per year to gears in their accounts. If they sell gears older than 5 years, they get money for gears which value is considered zero. They can put a positive number in the "profit and loss" line. A good opportunity to bring the whole familly to the restaurant. I talk about small contractors, one or two people, not big rental companies.

I understand the frustration of seeing price droping: you tell yourself "if I had waited for one year, I would have paid half the price". Or "I could buy a better device for the same price". But following these arguments you should postpone any purchase to next year. You will eventually never buy anything.

I mean: I understand price drop is not pleasant at first glance. But thinkning rationaly, there is no reason to be disapointed indeed. Enjoy the fact that the next gear you'll buy is half its release price last year.
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 25, 2013, 11:41:51 am
I mean: I understand price drop is not pleasant at first glance. But thinking rationaly, there is no reason to be disapointed indeed. Enjoy the fact that the next gear you'll buy is half its release price last year.

I really think that this is greater than your average product turn over. What mixing product has had this kind of undercut? Just Soundcraft. It's normal when a product as an average depreciation (even if thats a lot) but when its above average I think it's fair to be mad.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Geoff Doane on January 25, 2013, 12:06:56 pm

I understand the frustration of seeing price droping: you tell yourself "if I had waited for one year, I would have paid half the price". Or "I could buy a better device for the same price". But following these arguments you should postpone any purchase to next year. You will eventually never buy anything.



What's that Chinese proverb?  "The man who fully contemplates each step, spends his entire life standing on one foot." Or something like that.  :)

I can appreciate Samuel's frustration, but what is Soundcraft supposed to do?  Keep the price the same and watch Behringer eat their lunch?

What puzzles me is why I'm not seeing the price of used LS9s dropping.  I'd love to find an LS9-16 to compliment my 32 for small gigs, but if you can find them, people want $4K or more.  Have they not heard of the X32 yet?

The good news is that the SiC sounds as good today as the day you bought it.  Ultimately, all the gear is good enough that you should be getting the gigs on your own mixing skills or personnel skills, not whether you have the newest mixer on the block.  Since we're supposed to be at the Lounge level, riders and uneconomic demands by clients shouldn't enter into this (see Tim's opinion that ROI on rider-acceptable consoles is very poor).

GTD
Title: Re: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: jason misterka on January 25, 2013, 12:31:01 pm
Mmmm... What used gear can be hopefuly sold 75% of its price new ? As soon as you open the box, the gear loses 50% of its price. I bought many things second hand, including L'acoustics MTD115 speakers, Chevin and Camco amps, etc. This is pro and renowned gear. I paid 25-50% of the initial street price (typically 1/3rd). And this is not a question of gear being outdated: MTD115 are still very common where I live.

Nicolas -

We tend not to buy items at "Street Price", instead buy b-stock or wait for promotions from the manufacturer of items we have dealerships with.  It is fairly common that we can buy an item at 15-20% off dealer price, use it for four years, and then sell it for 75% of our purchase price.  Or, that's how it USED to be...

By the time you buy the case, the cabling infrastructure (multipins, power distribution), and all the add-ons (external PSU, UPS, meter bridges, cards) for a useful production package, you need to keep the desk working for at least four years to make any sense anyway.



Pro people I know apply a depreciation of 20% per year to gears in their accounts. If they sell gears older than 5 years, they get money for gears which value is considered zero. They can put a positive number in the "profit and loss" line. A good opportunity to bring the whole familly to the restaurant. I talk about small contractors, one or two people, not big rental companies.

I understand how the depreciation works but I look at it in different terms for this particular situation.  Yes, you are depreciating the equipment, but with the opportunity cost of not having the original money you actually used to buy that equipment (and whatever interest it would have earned minus the taxes you would have paid on it.)  You now have to buy a new piece of equipment, sell the old one (to get it off your books, after all you are still paying business property tax on it!), apply additional money and buy the new one.  Begin depreciating again.

If our Avid SC48 only sells for $5000 tomorrow, then we probably aren't going to be spending another $20,000 for the brand new Avid TD59, unless we can directly show that we are able to invoice enough to make up the difference.  We have to rely on using our existing equipment as an upgrade path to the next piece of equipment.  Sometimes it doesn't work out, other times it does.


I understand the frustration of seeing price droping: you tell yourself "if I had waited for one year, I would have paid half the price". Or "I could buy a better device for the same price". But following these arguments you should postpone any purchase to next year. You will eventually never buy anything.

I mean: I understand price drop is not pleasant at first glance. But thinkning rationaly, there is no reason to be disapointed indeed. Enjoy the fact that the next gear you'll buy is half its release price last year.

If I am buying a piece of gear for me to use, I make the best purchase I can with the best feature set available at the best price, and then smile and go about my day.  The problem I have is that I have to be always upgrading to keep up with artists' requirements. 

Some console manufacturers seem to appreciate this, have longer active life spans on a limited number of options, and provide reasonably priced software updates to improve their existing product lines.

I also understand that the lower to middle end of the market is in chaos right now, and certain companies may be acting out of short term self preservation.

I'm not singling out Soundcraft, and to be honest I never considered the older Si consoles as an good  option for us.  I haven't looked at the new release, maybe it now IS a good option :)

Jason






Title: Re: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: jason misterka on January 25, 2013, 12:35:45 pm

What puzzles me is why I'm not seeing the price of used LS9s dropping.  I'd love to find an LS9-16 to compliment my 32 for small gigs, but if you can find them, people want $4K or more.  Have they not heard of the X32 yet?

I hope not :)  I have an LS9-32 and a M7CL-48 still to sell!  Since they are in fact proven to still work five years later, I feel pretty good about it :)


Since we're supposed to be at the Lounge level, riders and uneconomic demands by clients shouldn't enter into this (see Tim's opinion that ROI on rider-acceptable consoles is very poor).

Hmmm, I didn't realize we were in the Lounge.  Sorry.  My original replies were on my phone app and it kinda jumbles them together...

And, damn it, Tim always says the smart things...

Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 25, 2013, 02:28:24 pm
- Or you are a real pro and you think in terms of return of investment. The contracts you have cover the console price. When you no longer need the desk, you resale it but you do not mind the price because this is just "slighltly more money". You did not build your business profitability based on the resale price of gears.

My observations were inspired by Chip Self, who wrote the original Study Hall articles on ROI (long missing from the Study Hall, damn it).

At most regional entertainment providers, a big ticket item like a large frame analog console usually did not recover its costs of ownership before its commercial end of life.  There are several reasons, but the 2 primary causes are 1) we can't bill for it - a console isn't a separate line item on the invoice, clients expect a suitable console to be part of a complete package and; 2) a console is obsolete in the marketplace (BE desires, mostly) long before it is physically or electrically incapable of working.

The recovery of costs at the end of the ownership cycle IS a consideration, but it's usually not a top consideration and shouldn't be a primary factor in the profitability of a company, at least in most business models.

At the Lounge Level, you typically don't have to make a BE happy.  Even if the Band in a Van has a rider, they're happy to see a stage with enough monitors, working mics and functional stands.  If the snake & console have sufficient working channels, the war is nearly won.

If buying for ones own exclusive use, buy whatever intrigues you or gives you pleasure in use.  That's part of the fun.  And you get to decide how long to own it...
Title: Re: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 25, 2013, 02:40:51 pm

And, damn it, Tim always says the smart things...

I stand on the backs of giants.

The ROI lesson came from Chip Self of Logic Systems in St. Louis.  It was a pair (IIRC) of articles he did for the Study Hall about 6 -8 years ago, before analog consoles were completely passe.  His writing made me go back and take a good, hard look at how our shop was looking at those issues of ownership and damn it, he was absolutely right.

The lower costs of equivalent performance that came with digital mixers offers some hope, as it's more possible to depreciate/recover $35,000 than it is $75,000, but the faster churn of the market means we have less time to do so.

Oy.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: kristianjohnsen on January 25, 2013, 03:17:19 pm
a console is obsolete in the marketplace (BE desires, mostly) long before it is physically or electrically incapable of working.


To be fair, this is exactly why the console will still fetch some money when the regional company sells it off:  Even if it's no use to the original owner, it functions well enough that someone else can put it to good use :)
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 25, 2013, 05:33:07 pm
I really think that this is greater than your average product turn over. What mixing product has had this kind of undercut? Just Soundcraft. It's normal when a product as an average depreciation (even if thats a lot) but when its above average I think it's fair to be mad.

You can't blame or be angry Soundcraft for joining the game. I can see where people could be disappointed because the lower cost board appears to have the features of the higher cost board, but does it really.
 
I am very happy to see a company of Soundcrafts capability, proven reliability and capable service jump into the shallow end of the pond. I've watched the videos and I'm impressed with the logic behind the design of the board. Everything, except the tiny screen is well thought out and arranged.
 
They aimed for an analog feel with full digital features and compatibility with their existing products, including stage boxes at prices that make sense. And, if they sound anywhere near as good as their big brothers we should see the scrap pile filling with Presonus boards soon enough.
 
Behringer borrowed from Midas and it looks like Soundcraft is leaning on Studer. Soundcraft wins.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Spenser Hamilton on January 25, 2013, 06:15:44 pm
They aimed for an analog feel with full digital features and compatibility with their existing products, including stage boxes at prices that make sense. And, if they sound anywhere near as good as their big brothers we should see the scrap pile filling with Presonus boards soon enough.

It seems as though they are doing what everybody has asked Presonus to do for a while now, that is, making a digital board that functions like an analog board while not sacrificing all the things that make digital useful in the first place.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Ryan McLeod on January 25, 2013, 09:57:50 pm
Ryan - where did these #'s come from?  My rep told me $999 and $1999.  The MADI card is $990 MAP.  I really wish the snakes were Blu-Link, not MADI.  With only one expansion port, blu-link would give you a snake, DBX personal monitor mixing, and connectivity to BSS London all in one. 

Grant

My bad - looks like I had some bad info - MAP CDN IS $1075 and $2150 respectively.  My 32x16 compact stage box with a MADI card was MUCH more! Sorry for the confusion.....

Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 26, 2013, 11:38:54 am
http://g-forceproaudio.com/2013/01/23/soundcraft-si-expression/

More info on the 'Soundcraft mixing consoles' Facebook. It looks to me like they took the Si Compact, improved it, and slashed the price by 60%, and released it as a "new" console, along with a few new option cards and cheap stage boxes. Seems like this is going to clearly destroy all resale value of Si Compacts down to the at least <$1800 range. My Apple products hold resale price better than that... disappointing.

Competition, competition....that's the free market system at work. Great for the end user. I remember when cell phones cost big bucks.

Not so great for Soundcraft dealers (like me) who still have Si Compacts in stock that were bought a while back (before all the price drops). I guess I'll be loosing my ass on those...thanks Soundcraft.  >:(
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 26, 2013, 12:04:18 pm
Competition, competition....that's the free market system at work. Great for the end user. I remember when cell phones cost big bucks.

Not so great for Soundcraft dealers (like me) who still have Si Compacts in stock that were bought a while back (before all the price drops). I guess I'll be loosing my ass on those...thanks Soundcraft.  >:(

I appreciate that competition drives down costs. This is them cleaning up after apparently introducing this desk at the wrong price. If they wanted to do this they should have released the Si Compact at this price in the first place. I get that once they screwed that up they had little choice but to do it now.... But it should have been done right from day 1 that's what I expect from a company like Soundcraft.

It obviously didn't cost them much to make this desk, unless someone is about to convince me that they were able to reduce production costs by 60% within a year? :)
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 26, 2013, 12:08:47 pm
I appreciate that competition drives down costs. This is them cleaning up after apparently introducing this desk at the wrong price. If they wanted to do this they should have released the Si Compact at this price in the first place. I get that once they screwed that up they had little choice but to do it now.... But it should have been done right from day 1 that's what I expect from a company like Soundcraft.

It obviously didn't cost them much to make this desk, unless someone is about to convince me that they were able to reduce production costs by 60% within a year? :)

I'm with ya bro!
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Ryan McLeod on January 26, 2013, 12:52:52 pm
I appreciate that competition drives down costs. This is them cleaning up after apparently introducing this desk at the wrong price. If they wanted to do this they should have released the Si Compact at this price in the first place. I get that once they screwed that up they had little choice but to do it now.... But it should have been done right from day 1 that's what I expect from a company like Soundcraft.

It obviously didn't cost them much to make this desk, unless someone is about to convince me that they were able to reduce production costs by 60% within a year? :)

As much as I agree (and I have stock of new SI-C as well as 4 rental units in cases and two installed in venues) I also think that a drastic move was somewhat necessary on Soundcraft's part, and had they removed a major feature (other than the analog inserts) to get that price down, I would be a little happier about it. My compact stage box with MADI card at twice the money is what actually stings a little.

In my eyes, with this price slash, there is no such thing as a 'digital' or 'analog' mixer in any part of the market - a 'good 16 channel analog mixer' now costs similar as it's nicely-outfitted digital counterpart... Or at least close enough that it won't matter for much longer. 

When they make an 8in-6out for $299 that my iPhone fits into, it'll get interesting.

I'm surprised it hasn't already happened, whatcha think... Maybe in a few weeks?

 
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 26, 2013, 09:25:25 pm
As much as I agree (and I have stock of new SI-C as well as 4 rental units in cases and two installed in venues) I also think that a drastic move was somewhat necessary on Soundcraft's part, and had they removed a major feature (other than the analog inserts) to get that price down, I would be a little happier about it. My compact stage box with MADI card at twice the money is what actually stings a little.

In my eyes, with this price slash, there is no such thing as a 'digital' or 'analog' mixer in any part of the market - a 'good 16 channel analog mixer' now costs similar as it's nicely-outfitted digital counterpart... Or at least close enough that it won't matter for much longer. 

When they make an 8in-6out for $299 that my iPhone fits into, it'll get interesting.

I'm surprised it hasn't already happened, whatcha think... Maybe in a few weeks?

some analog boards can cost more. Perhaps you might like to buy my APB Pro House for $2500?? didn't think so, but the fact is I wouldn't part with it anyway.
 
Years ago a 1mb 8 bit ethernet card cost around $1000. components were repackaged and could be made more cheaply and costs were driven down bit by bit until finally today you can buy a pretty good 100mb card for less than $20. Supply and demand, the primary reason for lower costs.
 
The costs of electronic components has dropped since the day the transistor was invented. The more demand for the component, the lower the cost. Soundcraft is doing what it needs to do in order to survive in the low cost board market.
 
And let's not kid ourselves into thinking Behringer forced the market to design low cost boards. They may be forcing the price line, but boards aren't designed overnight, so I'll bet Soundcraft had a marketable product 6 months ago and has chosen to wait for prices and features to be shown by other manufacturers before announcing the product line at NAMM. That's just good business sense on their part.   
 
I've said 100 times over I wouldn't go digital until the market was populated with choices from a number of manufacturers. It may not be as much "fun" to wait for the playing field to level, but eventually it always does and that's when most people find out they might have been better off watching the parade instead of leading the parade with the only banner available.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 26, 2013, 09:48:35 pm
It may not be as much "fun" to wait for the playing field to level, but eventually it always does and that's when most people find out they might have been better off watching the parade instead of leading the parade with the only banner available.

A lot of wisdom there Bob. I think I'm coming around to thinking like this.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Josh Daws on January 26, 2013, 10:25:08 pm
just heard that the 32ch is approx 600 more than the X32...
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Nicolas Poisson on January 27, 2013, 09:37:29 am
I really think that this is greater than your average product turn over. What mixing product has had this kind of undercut? Just Soundcraft.
And Midas with the Venice F that are sold half their initial price. And I would not be surprised if this happens to the StudioLive.

As other said, Soundcraft (or Midas,) had no choice but to drop prices. Unfortunately for them, the X32 is not bad enough (X32 buyers, please don't shout: joke).

Concerning the initial price that should have been the one of today since day 1, it could be, or it could not be. We all have get used to price dropping quickly in the computing world. The price of microprocessors are very high at the beginning, it is divided by say 4 or 5 during their commercial life. Early buyers will pay for R&D, the followers will get good prices because the costs are now covered by early sales.

It could more or less the same with the Soundcrafts: the whole line shares many components (VI included), many have been sold and maybe it is possible to drop prices because R&D costs are now covered by sales.

Other than that, I wonder if the digital desk market has really turned into a computing-like model. For years, if you wanted a live digital board for a reasonable price, it was a Yamaha. Then, all major companies have released "low cost" boards roughly at the same time (SI-C, GLD80, X32, Pro1,...). It could be that we currently are in a transition period. New models are released every 6 month, and a fierce competition make it hard to keep stable price for a long period. But once each manufacturer has released its first low cost board, once the prices have been adjusted to competitors, maybe the market will slow down.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on January 27, 2013, 11:07:45 am
--
 
Years ago a 1mb 8 bit ethernet card cost around $1000. components were repackaged and could be made more cheaply and costs were driven down bit by bit until finally today you can buy a pretty good 100mb card for less than $20. Supply and demand, the primary reason for lower costs.
I paid around $1k for a 32k x 16b memory card for my first computer back in the late '70s, and that was the cheap 3rd party price, standard memory from the computer maker cost a bunch more. BTW that old computer could only address and use about 28k of that full load of memory. :-)
Quote
The costs of electronic components has dropped since the day the transistor was invented. The more demand for the component, the lower the cost. Soundcraft is doing what it needs to do in order to survive in the low cost board market.
Surely you are familiar with Moore's law.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Transistor_Count_and_Moore%27s_Law_-_2011.svg/667px-Transistor_Count_and_Moore%27s_Law_-_2011.svg.png)
The driving factor IMO is technology, constantly reducing the "size" of transistors, so all other things held roughly equal, the cost per transistor drops dramatically, as you get more active devices inside the same size IC. This is most obvious in memory ICs, but large scale integrated devices benefit too.

Soundcraft like others is caught in the turbulence from the new pricing/sales volume math. This will take a while to settle out.
Quote
And let's not kid ourselves into thinking Behringer forced the market to design low cost boards. They may be forcing the price line, but boards aren't designed overnight, so I'll bet Soundcraft had a marketable product 6 months ago and has chosen to wait for prices and features to be shown by other manufacturers before announcing the product line at NAMM. That's just good business sense on their part.   
Pretty much every console maker, and some who weren't, have been working on digital console designs for decades. You only see what they decide to manufacture.
Quote
I've said 100 times over I wouldn't go digital until the market was populated with choices from a number of manufacturers. It may not be as much "fun" to wait for the playing field to level, but eventually it always does and that's when most people find out they might have been better off watching the parade instead of leading the parade with the only banner available.

At some point, the features available from using digital technology to execute basic mixing capability, will create too much of a advantage for non-digital products to survive the comparison in a competitive marketplace. 

At some future date, analog consoles will seem as archaic as a slide rule. For you young pukes who don't know what a slide rule is, it was a mechanical predecessor of the pocket calculator.

We are in the early days of digital mixing for the masses. Interesting times, but this is far from over. Just getting started in my judgement. Behringer is well positioned to defend the low price ground, but there are other niches to mine. 

JR
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Brandon Wright on January 27, 2013, 11:53:19 am
Does anyone know if you have to buy two cards to use the mini stage box with the Expression? Or does the stage box come with a card installed?
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Brian Larson on January 27, 2013, 01:10:05 pm
This is the reason when a few years ago when I was faced with the option to go digital, I chose a used LS9. Not because it sounds good (it doesn't) not because it's user friendly (it isn't) and not because its cheap (it certainly wasn't). I chose it because it stood on a solid foundation.

Sure it has bugs, but I can rent a replacement from anywhere. Conversely, I'm always cross-renting to other companies because the know exactly what they're getting. Every BE knows how to mix on it (even if they complain about it). And if I sold it today it would only be for about $500 less than I bought it for since I got it used. Sure it cost more up front, but I easily made back the $500 it cost for me to own this console up until now.

I really don't see these cheap MI consoles effecting the price of "real" consoles (even if my little LS9 is at the bottom of the "real console" list.)
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 27, 2013, 03:25:17 pm
This is the reason when a few years ago when I was faced with the option to go digital, I chose a used LS9. Not because it sounds good (it doesn't) not because it's user friendly (it isn't) and not because its cheap (it certainly wasn't). I chose it because it stood on a solid foundation.

Sure it has bugs, but I can rent a replacement from anywhere. Conversely, I'm always cross-renting to other companies because the know exactly what they're getting. Every BE knows how to mix on it (even if they complain about it). And if I sold it today it would only be for about $500 less than I bought it for since I got it used. Sure it cost more up front, but I easily made back the $500 it cost for me to own this console up until now.

I really don't see these cheap MI consoles effecting the price of "real" consoles (even if my little LS9 is at the bottom of the "real console" list.)

Think the GLD could be a bit of a "new" LS9? It seems set up to be, some serious pros around here have picked them up. They sort of held that spot previously with the analog GLs.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Tom Burgess on January 27, 2013, 06:54:50 pm
Does anyone know if you have to buy two cards to use the mini stage box with the Expression? Or does the stage box come with a card installed?
I'm pretty certain that a card is included although I don't have the info with me at the moment.
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 28, 2013, 12:36:30 pm
Sorry if I come off spiteful, everyone, just a frustrating situation. I much prefer to have warm and fuzzy feelings about the company that produces my expensive things!
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Brandon Wright on January 28, 2013, 02:49:32 pm
This is the reason when a few years ago when I was faced with the option to go digital, I chose a used LS9. Not because it sounds good (it doesn't) not because it's user friendly (it isn't) and not because its cheap (it certainly wasn't). I chose it because it stood on a solid foundation.

Sure it has bugs, but I can rent a replacement from anywhere. Conversely, I'm always cross-renting to other companies because the know exactly what they're getting. Every BE knows how to mix on it (even if they complain about it). And if I sold it today it would only be for about $500 less than I bought it for since I got it used. Sure it cost more up front, but I easily made back the $500 it cost for me to own this console up until now.

I really don't see these cheap MI consoles effecting the price of "real" consoles (even if my little LS9 is at the bottom of the "real console" list.)

So, two weeks ago the Si Compact was a "real" console right inline with the LS9. Now that they changed its color and cut the cost it is no longer a real console? Heck,IMO it's arguably better with 66 channels to mix.

Two weeks ago I was sold on the GLD, but now that I can get the same functionality for $2000-3000 dollars less it is kind of a no brainer. I can deal with the shelves on the high and low bands and the lack of scribble strips. Board tape is easier anyway. The main feature I will miss is the ability to mix a single input across all mixes during soundcheck. Oh well, I'll push the extra button. On an aesthetics note, I love the expression's 5d style leds around the encoders.

I mix on LS9's and m7's on an almost daily basis, and I would not call them anymore "real" than an si compact/si expression. (This is for my purposes only. If riders are an issue this statement is null and void.)
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 28, 2013, 03:16:24 pm
Two weeks ago I was sold on the GLD, but now that I can get the same functionality for $2000-3000 dollars less it is kind of a no brainer. I can deal with the shelves on the high and low bands and the lack of scribble strips. Board tape is easier anyway.

Wow, mind blown. That is the polar opposite of everything I'm thinking about this! Haha I guess "YMMV". I feel more positive about the GLD than ever after this release, and I own an Si Compact. It has seriously increased functionality over the Si Expression (and compact). VCAs, real groups, double the FX processors (8), built in aviom/personal mixer support, scribble strips, separate input and output fader banks, fully parametric EQ including lo pass filters (huge). I also think scribble strips are a huge deal. I don't think its a big problem on the Si or anything, but its certainly a valuable feature I'm willing to pay money for in the general sense.

I'm not saying the Si Expression is a bad product at all - I'm just saying GLD is just a higher end product, more features cost more money.

I think the GLD looks better than ever. Its not ankle-biting, they're confident with their prices and features despite all the crazy price changing in the area. Unlike Soundcraft who had to panic price slash.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Brandon Wright on January 28, 2013, 04:08:19 pm
Wow, mind blown. That is the polar opposite of everything I'm thinking about this! Haha I guess "YMMV". I feel more positive about the GLD than ever after this release, and I own an Si Compact. It has seriously increased functionality over the Si Expression (and compact). VCAs, real groups, double the FX processors (8), built in aviom/personal mixer support, scribble strips, separate input and output fader banks, fully parametric EQ including lo pass filters (huge). I also think scribble strips are a huge deal. I don't think its a big problem on the Si or anything, but its certainly a valuable feature I'm willing to pay money for in the general sense.

I'm not saying the Si Expression is a bad product at all - I'm just saying GLD is just a higher end product, more features cost more money.

I think the GLD looks better than ever. Its not ankle-biting, they're confident with their prices and features despite all the crazy price changing in the area. Unlike Soundcraft who had to panic price slash.

Hi Samuel,

I see your points, and my post is really specific to my purposes: Small bands that rarely exceed 24 inputs. I agree that when I'm mixing a band with more than 30 or so inputs, DCA's become a necessity. Also, I won't ever use the personal monitoring feature. The Si Compact 2 has 20 freely assignable faders, just like the gld (albeit only in a single bank). Again I agree with the fully parametric EQ, but the hi-lo shelving never really hindered me on an analog console.

Ultimately from a ROI standpoint, the gld wouldn't allow me to make any more money or pick up any more shows. The Si Expression provides me with all the features I need (Channel count, digital snake, I/O options, small footprint, etc....) for thousands less. From what I've seen an Si Expression with 32/16 stagebox should come it around 6 grand, whereas a gld with equal I/O capabilities would be roughly 9 grand.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on January 28, 2013, 09:40:57 pm
Wow, mind blown. That is the polar opposite of everything I'm thinking about this! Haha I guess "YMMV". I feel more positive about the GLD than ever after this release, and I own an Si Compact. It has seriously increased functionality over the Si Expression (and compact). VCAs, real groups, double the FX processors (8), built in aviom/personal mixer support, scribble strips, separate input and output fader banks, fully parametric EQ including lo pass filters (huge). I also think scribble strips are a huge deal. I don't think its a big problem on the Si or anything, but its certainly a valuable feature I'm willing to pay money for in the general sense.

The GLD is a heck of a lot more console than you could imagine.  You really need to sit down at one for several hours and go through all the features and you will love it.  Trust me, I liked it so much I bough a second one.  My first one paid for itself completely in new business and increased prices in about six months.

Regardless of sound quality, of which the GLD is excellent, the features are great. 

The fader banks are NOT "input" and "output" banks,  Any input and any output can be put on any fader of any layer of either bank.  YOu can have the same input or output on as many faders or layers or banks as you like.  Who needs a "Special" channel when you can have it where ever you want it.

The Scribble strips take just a couple seconds to type in or you can make some preset names and just asign those very easily with the touch of the screen.

The effects are great sounding and many have "Expert" functions that let you really dig in and get exactly what you want.

The EQs are nice and it is sometimes hard to tell that they are working, even though you know they are.  They sound very tranparent.  Now with the new Firmware coming out shortly there will be three different types of graphic EQs.  The Normal graphic that is there now, one that has a very similar color to a Klarke Unit and one that is a Hybrid of the two.  Also coming soon to a GLD near you....Multiband Compression!

I got to spend some quality time with Carey Davies talking about some of the GLD's functions and some features that we could really use in the real world.  He also explained a lot about the DSnake achitecture and how the network works and how the DSP architecture allocates resources and why some things are very easy to implement and others near impossible.

If Carey is able to implement a couple of the suggestions that I gave then the console is going to be super duper handy!

Someone in this thread mentioned approximate pricing of Around $9K.  I think that it would be a bit above that when shipping is included but the console is still the best thing in it's price range.

Of course the IPad App will be free and available pretty quickly.  That will make us all happy.  I asked him about an offline editor and did not get any good news nor any bad news with regards to one.  Obviously they had their programmers working really hard on the new ILive Firmware and now on the GLD Firmware/App so maybe after that we'll see something.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Brandon Wright on February 12, 2013, 02:31:34 pm
Just an update that I thought anyone interested in buying this console might appreciate.

This is a quote that was posted by soundcraft on their facebook page, take it for what it is worth.

 "The Mini Stageboxes will come with a MADI card fitted and a card for the console in the box. The MSB 32 will have Optical or Cat5 versions to choose from, the MSB 16 will be Cat5 only."

Talk about price cuts, considering that the MADI cards are nearly a grand on their own.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Kent Clasen on April 19, 2013, 02:46:11 pm
Apologies if this has been covered, but I can't seem to find on the Soundcraft site/downloads, does this console have the ability to use a Buss/Mix/Aux as a sub group/fixed send?  If so, can you put the Master fader for sub groups on any layer?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on April 19, 2013, 03:24:09 pm
Apologies if this has been covered, but I can't seem to find on the Soundcraft site/downloads, does this console have the ability to use a Buss/Mix/Aux as a sub group/fixed send?  If so, can you put the Master fader for sub groups on any layer?

Thanks!

Yes, to an extent. There is no setting like on an LS9 to make the buss 'fixed', but you can simply assign the aux the the LR or Mono output busses. The only issues are that pans will not follow, you'll have to configure them a second time when assigning the channel to the bus, and because there is no 'fixed' mode you'll need to make the buss post fader and bring it faders to assign the channels you want to it at unity. The fader layers are fully configurable - anything goes anywhere.
Title: Re: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Kent Clasen on April 24, 2013, 11:34:38 pm
Yes, to an extent. There is no setting like on an LS9 to make the buss 'fixed', but you can simply assign the aux the the LR or Mono output busses. The only issues are that pans will not follow, you'll have to configure them a second time when assigning the channel to the bus, and because there is no 'fixed' mode you'll need to make the buss post fader and bring it faders to assign the channels you want to it at unity. The fader layers are fully configurable - anything goes anywhere.

Thanks for your response.  No wonder I couldn't find it in their info!  You would think they could configure that a little differently to make it more like a real sub group and easier for the novice/church volunteer.

I thought I read that the 1st layer had limitations on what could/couldn't be assigned?
Title: Soundcraft Si Expression - Desk to compete with Behringer, Presonus, etc
Post by: Samuel Rees on April 25, 2013, 12:00:14 am
That is just on the Si Compact. The new desks are fully configurable. It's not meant to have subgroups at all - that's part of that keeping it simple philosophy you mentioned. But, if you really so desire, it can be done without too much trouble.