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Church and H.O.W. Ė Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Jason Lucas on January 13, 2013, 04:11:04 pm

Title: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 13, 2013, 04:11:04 pm
This is mostly a theoretical question, since my church is not currently looking at buying a new console. But I wanted to ask you guys what you think the best 48 channel analog desk is, for $7000 or less.

So far the only two I've found are the Soundcraft GB8 and Allen & Heath GL2800-848.

So what do you think is the best? Requirements would be at least 48 channels, analog, and $7000 or less.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 13, 2013, 04:13:51 pm
This is mostly a theoretical question, since my church is not currently looking at buying a new console. But I wanted to ask you guys what you think the best 48 channel analog desk is, for $7000 or less.

So far the only two I've found are the Soundcraft GB8 and Allen & Heath GL2800-848.

So what do you think is the best? Requirements would be at least 48 channels, analog, and $7000 or less.

A used APB.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 13, 2013, 04:16:10 pm
A used APB.
Or a used Soundcraft MH3
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 13, 2013, 04:18:26 pm
Or a used Soundcraft MH3

A more likely find than the APB.  I have seen APB's in the past for affordable prices, but MH desks more often.  Good feature set on the MH's.

There's an MH2-48 with goodies here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Soundcraft-MH-2-48-Ch-Tour-Pack-Mixing-Console-/181043982171?pt=US_Live_Studio_Mixers&hash=item2a270fef5b

Half your budget.......
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 13, 2013, 04:22:46 pm
Hmm, how does the MH compare to the GB series? Just curious.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 13, 2013, 04:33:05 pm
Hmm, how does the MH compare to the GB series? Just curious.
TheMH is a real desk. Does that answer your question?
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 13, 2013, 04:39:13 pm
Hmm, how does the MH compare to the GB series? Just curious.

The proper phrasing of the question would be "how does the GB compare to the MH".

Answer is it doesn't.

Apples and hammers.......
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 13, 2013, 04:42:03 pm
LOL that big a difference huh?

I guess $7k doesn't go too far in the new market for analog. Crazy how cheap some of those consoles are going for used. Looking now I can even find some Midas stuff for relatively cheap compared to how much they sold new...
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 13, 2013, 05:28:30 pm
LOL that big a difference huh?

I guess $7k doesn't go too far in the new market for analog. Crazy how cheap some of those consoles are going for used. Looking now I can even find some Midas stuff for relatively cheap compared to how much they sold new...

MH2:

KEY FEATURES

    Frame sizes: 24+4, 32+4, 40+4 and 48+4
    Styling based closely on MH3/4, with a single-piece front panel
    MH3/4 mic amp design with 50dB range plus -20dB level shift and separate 1/4" Line input
    Swept high-pass filter and 4-band EQ (all bands swept)
    10 Auxes, of which 2 can be switched to create 1 x stereo send
    Pre/post fader switching in pairs (except 5-8 as one block of 4)
    8 full-time Group busses with paired routing
    LCR panning on inputs-mix
    8 VCAs and 6 Mute Groups
    4 Stereo Input channels with mic/line capability
    4 stereo line returns with 3-band fixed EQ, returns can route to output channels
    11x4 Matrix built-in
    10 x linear 60mm output faders, plus 8 rotary output faders with SWAP facility to allow linear faders to control either all 10 Auxes or 8 Grps and 2 Auxes
    Inserts on Groups and Mix outputs (Group insert moves between Grp & Aux)
    12-segment Input and Output metering
    Central assignment of VCA Groups, with individual LED displays per channel

Look up the features for the GB and compare.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 13, 2013, 06:35:53 pm
MH2:

KEY FEATURES

    Frame sizes: 24+4, 32+4, 40+4 and 48+4
    Styling based closely on MH3/4, with a single-piece front panel
    MH3/4 mic amp design with 50dB range plus -20dB level shift and separate 1/4" Line input
    Swept high-pass filter and 4-band EQ (all bands swept)
    10 Auxes, of which 2 can be switched to create 1 x stereo send
    Pre/post fader switching in pairs (except 5-8 as one block of 4)
    8 full-time Group busses with paired routing
    LCR panning on inputs-mix
    8 VCAs and 6 Mute Groups
    4 Stereo Input channels with mic/line capability
    4 stereo line returns with 3-band fixed EQ, returns can route to output channels
    11x4 Matrix built-in
    10 x linear 60mm output faders, plus 8 rotary output faders with SWAP facility to allow linear faders to control either all 10 Auxes or 8 Grps and 2 Auxes
    Inserts on Groups and Mix outputs (Group insert moves between Grp & Aux)
    12-segment Input and Output metering
    Central assignment of VCA Groups, with individual LED displays per channel

Look up the features for the GB and compare.

I have and you're right, the MH is definitely the better board. The GB8 might be one of the best 48 channel Analog mixers you can get new, but shopping used there's MH, APB and Midas (if you're lucky) so might as well look for used.

My church paid $7000 for our digital mixer and I was curious as to how much that would fetch in the analog world. I honestly don't think the board we got is the best fit for us. But it works well enough, and we already bought it.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 13, 2013, 08:34:28 pm
I have and you're right, the MH is definitely the better board. The GB8 might be one of the best 48 channel Analog mixers you can get new, but shopping used there's MH, APB and Midas (if you're lucky) so might as well look for used.

My church paid $7000 for our digital mixer and I was curious as to how much that would fetch in the analog world. I honestly don't think the board we got is the best fit for us. But it works well enough, and we already bought it.

There is probably a lesson there, what board did you get and why doesn't it fit?

Frank
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 13, 2013, 09:06:24 pm
There is probably a lesson there, what board did you get and why doesn't it fit?

Frank

It's a Roland 400 according to the signature accompanying every post he makes.  I imagine the digital work-flow for inexperienced volunteers is the poor fit.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Thomas Lamb on January 13, 2013, 09:35:08 pm
This is mostly a theoretical question, since my church is not currently looking at buying a new console. But I wanted to ask you guys what you think the best 48 channel analog desk is, for $7000 or less.

So far the only two I've found are the Soundcraft GB8 and Allen & Heath GL2800-848.

So what do you think is the best? Requirements would be at least 48 channels, analog, and $7000 or less.

My understanding is that GL2800 series is either no longer available or will not be available soon. A&H has been slowly phasing out all of their larger frame analog desks over the past year.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 13, 2013, 09:54:48 pm
It's a Roland 400 according to the signature accompanying every post he makes.  I imagine the digital work-flow for inexperienced volunteers is the poor fit.

Actually the people who run it have only ever used digital boards. We had a Mackie TT24 in the past.

But, our channel count has grown since then and that necessitated the use of layers, which no one likes. Every time we've rethought the channel layout on the board we've always tried to fit as much on to the first layer as possible so as to not have to switch at all. That plus the lack of sub-groups, the inability to send a channel to an AUX pre-dynamics (or make the EQ come before the compressor, as I like to do) plus no delay on outputs.

But none of that is as frustrating as the proprietary REAC network which either means you use Roland products for recording, IEMs, and everything else, or you treat it like an analog console. The board lacks ADAT (which should really be a given on digital consoles imo). No AES/EBU outputs unless you get the expensive S-4000S-MR modular (8 rack-space) snake. And even though it's digital and has layers, there aren't any LED scribble strips like the Yamaha CL, Soundcraft Vi and Allen & Heath iLive/GLD boards have, so if you want to have different channel layouts on different scenes your channel labels won't match.

I actually had to talk the worship pastor out of having everyone use the same scene on the mixer. I mean, the thing supports like 300 scenes, and they wanted us to all use 1. Thankfully that didn't last.

So I honestly think we would have been better served by an analog console. We wouldn't have scenes so the worship pastor wouldn't have to worry about that. No layers, and an individual knob for each function.

The Roland is a pretty decent board but it's pretty lacking in features that I've come to think of as standard on mixers, especially digital ones.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 13, 2013, 10:18:57 pm

But, our channel count has grown since then and that necessitated the use of layers, which no one likes.

Yikes,  good points all.  One thing I have never understood is why all digital mixers don't support a aux video screen.  They are computers, they know how to make video, so put a jack on the back, let people plug in a 24 inch monitor from staples and show all channels at once.  add a mouse and you could get to and control all channels at once.  OK it doesn't put them on the faders where I want them, but at least I can find the ch and get to it quickly.

Frank
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 13, 2013, 10:40:52 pm
The board lacks ADAT (which should really be a given on digital consoles imo).

Most live digital consoles don't have ADAT.
Title: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on January 13, 2013, 10:58:10 pm
Most live digital consoles don't have ADAT.
+1, at least the "Pro" ones mostly don't.  Dante is becoming the popular protocol for moving lots of channels to and from a computer, among other uses.

Layers aren't necessarily bad, it's how they are implemented.  The static, for lack of a better term, way that Roland and many Yamaha consoles do it is a way of saving fader count but with an out dated work flow.  The VCA spill, POP groups, sub-sections of faders, etc is a more mature use of many functions on few faders. 

More than 1 function per fader isn't a problem, and analog isn't really the solution. 

Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 13, 2013, 10:59:50 pm
Most live digital consoles don't have ADAT.

Okay, most don't come with them, granted. But several digital mixers out there have ADAT add-on cards (GLD, iLive, Soundcraft Si/Vi, and Yamaha CL to name a few).
Title: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 13, 2013, 11:03:30 pm
+1, at least the "Pro" ones mostly don't.  Dante is becoming the popular protocol for moving lots of channels to and from a computer, among other uses.

Layers aren't necessarily bad, it's how they are implemented.  The static, for lack of a better term, way that Roland and many Yamaha consoles do it is a way of saving fader count but with an out dated work flow.  The VCA spill, POP groups, sub-sections of faders, etc is a more mature use of many functions on few faders. 

More than 1 function per fader isn't a problem, and analog isn't really the solution.

In addition to the faders, the "everyone use one scene" thing was also an argument for getting analog. Most digital consoles that have more than 24 faders are very pricy. Definitely outside the $7k range.

I'm not against digital mixers, I'd kill for an iLive or Soundcraft Vi console, but they're a LOT more money than the Roland.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on January 14, 2013, 08:51:44 am
I'm not against digital mixers, I'd kill for an iLive or Soundcraft Vi console, but they're a LOT more money than the Roland.
Roland and Midas are pretty close in price now, the GLD is as well.  We sold many Roland mixers, until the iLive chipped away some market, the GLD some more, the X32 some more, now with Midas it's all but done for. 
Title: Re: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 14, 2013, 11:01:26 am
Roland and Midas are pretty close in price now, the GLD is as well.  We sold many Roland mixers, until the iLive chipped away some market, the GLD some more, the X32 some more, now with Midas it's all but done for.

The Midas Pro1 and Pro2C, maybe, but the full-sized Pro2 is still a pretty significant step up in price, and the Pro1 only has 40 channels and only 16 faders.

The GLD is about the same price range as the Roland, but still has fewer faders (although it has LED scribble strips which I love). The GLD also doesn't support remote control with a laptop like the Roland and iLive do.

EDIT: Corrected numbers.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Thomas Lamb on January 14, 2013, 11:52:12 am
The Midas Pro1 and Pro2C, maybe, but the full-sized Pro2 is still a pretty significant step up in price, and the Pro1 only has 40 channels and only 16 faders.

The GLD is about the same price range as the Roland, but still has fewer faders (although it has LED scribble strips which I love). The GLD also doesn't support remote control with a laptop like the Roland and iLive do.

EDIT: Corrected numbers.
Give it a week and a half. I bet the GLD will get an app! If not then it will be shortly there after.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Michael Robertson on January 14, 2013, 01:07:24 pm
Every time we've rethought the channel layout on the board we've always tried to fit as much on to the first layer as possible so as to not have to switch at all. That plus the lack of sub-groups, the inability to send a channel to an AUX pre-dynamics (or make the EQ come before the compressor, as I like to do) plus no delay on outputs.

Our church used an 01V96 live for years. We ran 24 ch on it at all times. I will say the layers are rough, but at least with it we could have groups and a remote layer that allowed you to assign whatever channels to it in whatever order you'd like. That got us away from having to switch layers too much. Without groups that would be difficult.

Making everyone use one scene just seems laughable. Heck, I think I have four or five scenes in my own show file for our iLive. I've only used an MH3 once, but if the MH2 is anything like it's big brother and it fits your needs it would be a great option.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Brad Weber on January 15, 2013, 02:56:26 pm
Give it a week and a half. I bet the GLD will get an app! If not then it will be shortly there after.
There may also be many other new products or product improvements in a week and a half as that is the Winter NAMM show.  As an increasing percentage of mixers, and especially digital mixers, fall more into the 'MI' rather than 'pro' market and distribution then an increasing number of the related product announcements may coincide with MI events rather than with pro audio shows or events.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 19, 2013, 06:18:50 pm
I have to wonder why the Midas offline editor only works on Mac?

For kicks and giggles I downloaded the offline editors for the Soundcraft Si/Vi, Yamaha CL, iLive and of course Roland boards, to see how they compare, but I can't use the Midas one because it's Mac-only. Doesn't make much sense to me.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Brad Weber on January 20, 2013, 07:13:48 am
My church paid $7000 for our digital mixer and I was curious as to how much that would fetch in the analog world. I honestly don't think the board we got is the best fit for us. But it works well enough, and we already bought it.
Don't forget the cost to cover any of the signal processing and effects that you use on your digital mixer.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jeff Carter on January 20, 2013, 02:37:13 pm
Don't forget the cost to cover any of the signal processing and effects that you use on your digital mixer.
Everything he uses, or only the processing that would actually be worth the time and money to buy and patch in?

Maybe it's a character flaw on my part, but if I had to go back to analog and start wrestling around with cables to patching in dynamics (let alone paying for them) I'm sure I'd conclude that they weren't worth the hassle in a lot of cases.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 20, 2013, 07:47:36 pm
Everything he uses, or only the processing that would actually be worth the time and money to buy and patch in?

Maybe it's a character flaw on my part, but if I had to go back to analog and start wrestling around with cables to patching in dynamics (let alone paying for them) I'm sure I'd conclude that they weren't worth the hassle in a lot of cases.

Honestly, even though I have access to 24 dynamics processors on our board I only use 5 or 6 at the most. If we had an analog console I'd probably only get 2 or 3 stereo comps/gates and 2 effects processors. I often only use 1 effect during a whole song set.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 20, 2013, 07:57:46 pm
Everything he uses, or only the processing that would actually be worth the time and money to buy and patch in?

Maybe it's a character flaw on my part, but if I had to go back to analog and start wrestling around with cables to patching in dynamics (let alone paying for them) I'm sure I'd conclude that they weren't worth the hassle in a lot of cases.

On the other hand, one could say that "if I had to be limited to just the onboard comps and gates, I'm sure I'd conclude that I like being able to select the quality and feature set of my premium analog gear".

Two sides to every coin.

While I appreciate the convenience of "everything on every channel", I don't use "everything on every channel".  Eight channels of the best comps (with de-essing), 6 really good gates, multi-band comps for every sub-group and my favorite FX processors are hard to beat until you get up in the high$$$ digital consoles with enough power to use low-latency plug-ins.

Jason....

Evan Hunter has just listed a nice 48 channel Soundcraft GB8 in the Marketplace.  He's a good fellow.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 20, 2013, 08:29:04 pm
On the other hand, one could say that "if I had to be limited to just the onboard comps and gates, I'm sure I'd conclude that I like being able to select the quality and feature set of my premium analog gear".

Two sides to every coin.

While I appreciate the convenience of "everything on every channel", I don't use "everything on every channel".  Eight channels of the best comps (with de-essing), 6 really good gates, multi-band comps for every sub-group and my favorite FX processors are hard to beat until you get up in the high$$$ digital consoles with enough power to use low-latency plug-ins.

Jason....

Evan Hunter has just listed a nice 48 channel Soundcraft GB8 in the Marketplace.  He's a good fellow.

Well, as I said in the OP the church isn't actually looking for a new board right now, and probably won't be for another few years. And who knows what will be out in the market by then, or how much we'll have to spend on a new board at that time.

Right now we're a lot more concerned with getting new speakers and an IEM solution (which we may have found).
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Kent Thompson on January 21, 2013, 11:51:34 am
Having all the options available on a digital board for me has generated a lot of educational "what if" scenarios that I would have never had previously. Some turned out good others didn't.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Kent Thompson on January 21, 2013, 12:02:37 pm
The Midas Pro1 and Pro2C, maybe, but the full-sized Pro2 is still a pretty significant step up in price, and the Pro1 only has 40 channels and only 16 faders.

The GLD is about the same price range as the Roland, but still has fewer faders (although it has LED scribble strips which I love). The GLD also doesn't support remote control with a laptop like the Roland and iLive do.

EDIT: Corrected numbers.

The A&H consoles have a workflow that I really like and are well laid out in my opinion.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 21, 2013, 07:20:02 pm
The A&H consoles have a workflow that I really like and are well laid out in my opinion.

The A&H offline editing software is also the most intuitive that I've used so far.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Kent Thompson on January 22, 2013, 01:52:43 pm
I have learned to embrace the layering and use it to my advantage. For instance I put the drums on the second level and place drum DCA's on the top level in its place. Most of the time this is all I need. I also figured out which channels I am accessing the least and put them on lower levels (matrix,aux masters,effects. I rely heavily on my DCAs. Layers are not evil. Just sit down and think about what you are doing and come up with a workflow that fits.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 22, 2013, 02:31:02 pm
I have learned to embrace the layering and use it to my advantage. For instance I put the drums on the second level and place drum DCA's on the top level in its place. Most of the time this is all I need. I also figured out which channels I am accessing the least and put them on lower levels (matrix,aux masters,effects. I rely heavily on my DCAs. Layers are not evil. Just sit down and think about what you are doing and come up with a workflow that fits.

Yeah but what happens when the DCAs are on a separate layer? They are on the M-400.

Having AUXs and stereo returns on a separate layer makes sense, and that's how it's setup on our board.

If the DCAs were on the same layer as the inputs I might use them more. Technically I can put them on the same layer if I make use of the User layers, but honestly everytime I've used DCAs I wound up not really liking them. I wind up missing the individual control.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 22, 2013, 02:36:33 pm
Yeah but what happens when the DCAs are on a separate layer? They are on the M-400.

The M-400 is more of a recording desk than a live board.  It's just not set up well for live use.

Quote
..... everytime I've used DCAs I wound up not really liking them. I wind up missing the individual control.

Properly set up, the individual channels are one button push away.  That's not a deal-breaker.  And with the DCA's your group can have control of channels on different layers.....if you want it that way.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 22, 2013, 03:08:19 pm
The M-400 is more of a recording desk than a live board.  It's just not set up well for live use.

Properly set up, the individual channels are one button push away.  That's not a deal-breaker.  And with the DCA's your group can have control of channels on different layers.....if you want it that way.

One button push is one too many. I like the faders to be within reach at all times. It makes it much easier to react to changes. Luckily I can fit all of the mics and instruments on to one layer, barely. If we ever want to do more though, like putting more mics on the drums or guitar amps or we want to start using stereo keyboards then we won't be able to put it all on one layer and I'll probably have to rely very heavily on the user layer.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 22, 2013, 03:50:20 pm
One button push is one too many. I like the faders to be within reach at all times. It makes it much easier to react to changes. Luckily I can fit all of the mics and instruments on to one layer, barely. If we ever want to do more though, like putting more mics on the drums or guitar amps or we want to start using stereo keyboards then we won't be able to put it all on one layer and I'll probably have to rely very heavily on the user layer.

There's distance and there's distance.  In the land where you have 48 faders for 48 channels, the distance between channels 1 and 48 can be as much as six feet (analog) plus the time to get there.  Boards with multiple layers have less physical distance, that being replaced by the "distance" of time required to push a button.

Pick your poison.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 22, 2013, 04:18:09 pm
There's distance and there's distance.  In the land where you have 48 faders for 48 channels, the distance between channels 1 and 48 can be as much as six feet (analog) plus the time to get there.  Boards with multiple layers have less physical distance, that being replaced by the "distance" of time required to push a button.

Pick your poison.

Sure, but with a 48 channel console I would keep the channels I use most often closest to me, and then put channels like stereo returns and such farther away because I don't need to adjust them as often. I can pretty easily reach something 3 or 4 feet away.

One problem I run into with layers is needing to adjust something on one layer as well as something on another layer at the same time. With an analog console the only problem with that might be the reach, whereas with layers I cannot actually adjust two channels on adjacent layers at the same time without doing one of two things:

1. Assign the two things I need to adjust to a DCA or pair of DCAs.
2. Have the channel on the first layer selected and adjust the level on screen and then move to the second layer and adjust the other channel with my other hand.

I've made use of the second method a few times but my preference is to simply setup my user layer so that both of those channels are on the same layer.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 22, 2013, 04:27:32 pm
Sure, but with a 48 channel console I would keep the channels I use most often closest to me, and then put channels like stereo returns and such farther away because I don't need to adjust them as often. I can pretty easily reach something 3 or 4 feet away.


As I said, there's distance and there's distance.  The above statement can be applied to one long layer or multiple layers equally.   It's all about how you set it up. 

As to the speed of operation:  what happens when you need to quickly patch or re-patch something?  How quickly can you dig into the dog-house and pull a processor insert from one channel and insert it on another?  How quickly can you activate the processor on the channel on a digital desk?

As I said......pick your poison.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 22, 2013, 04:34:01 pm
Sure, but with a 48 channel console I would keep the channels I use most often closest to me, and then put channels like stereo returns and such farther away because I don't need to adjust them as often. I can pretty easily reach something 3 or 4 feet away.
How's that different than putting things used less often on a different page?

One problem I run into with layers is needing to adjust something on one layer as well as something on another layer at the same time. With an analog console the only problem with that might be the reach, whereas with layers I cannot actually adjust two channels on adjacent layers at the same time without doing one of two things:

1. Assign the two things I need to adjust to a DCA or pair of DCAs.
2. Have the channel on the first layer selected and adjust the level on screen and then move to the second layer and adjust the other channel with my other hand.

I've made use of the second method a few times but my preference is to simply setup my user layer so that both of those channels are on the same layer.
Most good digital boards are flexible enough that you can put anything you need anywhere, either intrinsically like the iLives/GLD, or by using user layers. 

I'm going to stop short (maybe just) of saying you're wrong, but I will say that you are a member of a shrinking minority with your preference of a LFA board.  The upside is that there is an ever increasing supply of boards of the type you prefer for less and less money.  I know of two MH3 boards for sale in my city and they're getting cheaper by the day.

Edit:  I believe you'd be able to buy both of them for your $7K number (one needs a little work).
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 22, 2013, 04:59:07 pm
How's that different than putting things used less often on a different page?Most good digital boards are flexible enough that you can put anything you need anywhere, either intrinsically like the iLives/GLD, or by using user layers. 

Right, but on the Roland you can only do that if you use the user layers. Without user layers you can only patch inputs to channels 1-48. AUXes and DCAs are on their own layers and can't be moved to other ones (again, unless you use user layers).

Plus, the Roland doesn't have LEDs that change when you change layers or when you change patches. You gotta use tape or print labels onto the board, and then if you want to change the layout you have to change the labels.

As I said, I'd kill for an iLive but they're a lot more expensive than the Roland.

Also, regarding patching: I've never had to change a patch during a show. And I rarely, if ever change a patch during sound check.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 22, 2013, 05:01:52 pm
Right, but on the Roland you can only do that if you use the user layers. Without user layers you can only patch inputs to channels 1-48. AUXes and DCAs are on their own layers and can't be moved to other ones (again, unless you use user layers).

Plus, the Roland doesn't have LEDs that change when you change layers or when you change patches. You gotta use tape or print labels onto the board, and then if you want to change the layout you have to change the labels.

As I said, I'd kill for an iLive but they're a lot more expensive than the Roland.

Yep, the Roland sucks compared to functional live consoles.

By the way......

Are you buying this or is the church buying it for your (their) use? 
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 22, 2013, 05:19:33 pm
Yep, the Roland sucks compared to functional live consoles.

By the way......

Are you buying this or is the church buying it for your (their) use?

It would be the church, I certainly can't afford to drop thousands of dollars on a mixer.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Kent Thompson on January 23, 2013, 11:40:16 am
Right, but on the Roland you can only do that if you use the user layers. Without user layers you can only patch inputs to channels 1-48. AUXes and DCAs are on their own layers and can't be moved to other ones (again, unless you use user layers).

Plus, the Roland doesn't have LEDs that change when you change layers or when you change patches. You gotta use tape or print labels onto the board, and then if you want to change the layout you have to change the labels.

As I said, I'd kill for an iLive but they're a lot more expensive than the Roland.

Also, regarding patching: I've never had to change a patch during a show. And I rarely, if ever change a patch during sound check.
The GLD to me appears to be in the same price range as the Roland unless I am missing something. Choosing a GLD would at least divorce you from the 1 to 1 format and allow you to put anything anywhere you want it.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 23, 2013, 01:01:47 pm
The GLD to me appears to be in the same price range as the Roland unless I am missing something. Choosing a GLD would at least divorce you from the 1 to 1 format and allow you to put anything anywhere you want it.

My only gripes with the GLD are that it has fewer faders than the Roland (although it's less of an issue because you can put anything anywhere) and the lack of remote control (which I assume they'll fix soon).

The Roland board retails for $10k, the snakes each go for about $2k. The GLD is $9k and the main rack unit is $2200, with 8 in/4 out units costing $1200. So they're about the same price.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 23, 2013, 01:12:01 pm
My only gripes with the GLD are that it has fewer faders than the Roland (although it's less of an issue because you can put anything anywhere) and the lack of remote control (which I assume they'll fix soon).

The Roland board retails for $10k, the snakes each go for about $2k. The GLD is $9k and the main rack unit is $2200, with 8 in/4 out units costing $1200. So they're about the same price.

You're incorrect on the GLD pricing.  There are better deals out there and there have been some killer deals on open box GLD systems in the Marketplace either here or at SFN. 

Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 23, 2013, 01:31:39 pm
You're incorrect on the GLD pricing.  There are better deals out there and there have been some killer deals on open box GLD systems in the Marketplace either here or at SFN.

I'd be incorrect if I said that was the price everywhere. It's the current price on Sweetwater, which tends to have the same price as most standard online retailers.

We got our Roland + snakes ($14,000 retail) for only $7,000. So I already assumed it was possible to find a similar deal on the GLD.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on January 23, 2013, 01:32:01 pm
How's that different than putting things used less often on a different page?Most good digital boards are flexible enough that you can put anything you need anywhere, either intrinsically like the iLives/GLD, or by using user layers. 

I'm going to stop short (maybe just) of saying you're wrong, but I will say that you are a member of a shrinking minority with your preference of a LFA board.  The upside is that there is an ever increasing supply of boards of the type you prefer for less and less money.  I know of two MH3 boards for sale in my city and they're getting cheaper by the day.

Edit:  I believe you'd be able to buy both of them for your $7K number (one needs a little work).

I am a died in the wool analog guy still mixing Sunday services on a Midas Heritage but even I can not in good conscience advocate that our next system be based around an analog console. The sun is setting on analog as we know it but I also believe the sun is setting on the current design motif in digital consoles. I think the best digital consoles of ten years from now are going to look a lot more like a Heritage with a screen. I think things like layers, multiple uses for buttons and encoders, will still exist for portable and small format use but the best digital is going to mature in to something that looks a lot like LFA.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 23, 2013, 01:49:52 pm
I am a died in the wool analog guy still mixing Sunday services on a Midas Heritage but even I can not in good conscience advocate that our next system be based around an analog console. The sun is setting on analog as we know it but I also believe the sun is setting on the current design motif in digital consoles. I think the best digital consoles of ten years from now are going to look a lot more like a Heritage with a screen. I think things like layers, multiple uses for buttons and encoders, will still exist for portable and small format use but the best digital is going to mature in to something that looks a lot like LFA.

I can even see an option which would come up on-screen:

"what do you want to do?" to which you would enter your task either from a menu selection or selections or type in your topic.  The pertinent info would pop up either from the manual or simply on-screen with the desired operation highlighted on the screen.

Patch FX to channel?  Click here on the routing diagram.

"How can I help you, Dave?"
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on January 23, 2013, 02:36:56 pm
I think the best digital consoles of ten years from now are going to look a lot more like a Heritage with a screen. I think things like layers, multiple uses for buttons and encoders, will still exist for portable and small format use but the best digital is going to mature in to something that looks a lot like LFA.

Amen to that. +1  I hope mfgs see this.  Every single time I need the fader for channel 37 I want it to be right where I left it and where I can see it.

Frank
Title: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 23, 2013, 03:12:12 pm
Perhaps I don't deal with channel counts high enough to properly annoy me, but layers just have not really bothered me yet. I work on the SD8-24 and the full size 36 fader SD8 often, and I don't madly wish they were both full size. It's nice I suppose, but 36 inputs, 12 outputs plus fx returns feels fine on just 24 faders. I learned the earliest basics in analog, but I've put in way more hours on digital than analog since then. I'm sure 24 faders would get real tight real fast on a 96 input show, but I'm sure the Vi4 would manage it fine and that's still tons less than 1 fader per input. Clearly YMMV, and maybe it'll change for me as I get into bigger stuff,
who knows.  Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: brian maddox on January 23, 2013, 03:34:25 pm
I can even see an option which would come up on-screen:

"what do you want to do?" to which you would enter your task either from a menu selection or selections or type in your topic.  The pertinent info would pop up either from the manual or simply on-screen with the desired operation highlighted on the screen.

Patch FX to channel?  Click here on the routing diagram.

"How can I help you, Dave?"

this is a topic swerve, but i think it's an interesting thing to think about.  in the early days of analog live mixers there were many different layouts and control combinations.  some worked well.  some did not.  gradually the market moved all the designs to a pretty similar layout, and any large format analog desk from the last decade or so is laid out and functions very similarly.

i think the digital world will evolve in the same manner.  each manufacturer will weigh the pros and cons of a particular UI, and implement what they feel is the best solution.  but over time, the differences are going to filter out until we have digital consoles that all look and feel very similar to each other.  what that look and feel is going to be is anyone's guess.  it'll be interesting to watch and see how it all shakes out....
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 23, 2013, 03:49:44 pm
this is a topic swerve, but i think it's an interesting thing to think about.  in the early days of analog live mixers there were many different layouts and control combinations.  some worked well.  some did not.  gradually the market moved all the designs to a pretty similar layout, and any large format analog desk from the last decade or so is laid out and functions very similarly.

i think the digital world will evolve in the same manner.  each manufacturer will weigh the pros and cons of a particular UI, and implement what they feel is the best solution.  but over time, the differences are going to filter out until we have digital consoles that all look and feel very similar to each other.  what that look and feel is going to be is anyone's guess.  it'll be interesting to watch and see how it all shakes out....

I can see things boiling down to one, two or three "standard" operating systems with modular, user-configurable control surfaces......or vice versa.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 23, 2013, 04:13:39 pm
Perhaps I don't deal with channel counts high enough to properly annoy me, but layers just have not really bothered me yet. I work on the SD8-24 and the full size 36 fader SD8 often, and I don't madly wish they were both full size. It's nice I suppose, but 36 inputs, 12 outputs plus fx returns feels fine on just 24 faders. I learned the earliest basics in analog, but I've put in way more hours on digital than analog since then. I'm sure 24 faders would get real tight real fast on a 96 input show, but I'm sure the Vi4 would manage it fine and that's still tons less than 1 fader per input. Clearly YMMV, and maybe it'll change for me as I get into bigger stuff,
who knows.  Just my thoughts.

I'm sure after a certain point it's simply not feasible to have everything on the same layer, and then sub-grouping of some sort becomes necessary. I think intellegent grouping systems can make up for a low fader count. Sub-groups, DCA/VCAs, "POP" groups like the Midas has, etc. I think if it's layed out in a way that makes sense, layers really won't get in the way.

The first mixer I used was a Mackie TT24. It had 24 input faders, like the Roland, but it also had 4 sub-group faders. Between the two I never really had a problem with layers. The Roland has no sub-groups, but it does have DCAs. The DCAs would be great except that they're on a separate layer. Because of that I basically never use them, where as I frequently used the sub-groups on the Mackie.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Kent Thompson on January 24, 2013, 01:50:00 pm
My only gripes with the GLD are that it has fewer faders than the Roland (although it's less of an issue because you can put anything anywhere) and the lack of remote control (which I assume they'll fix soon).

The Roland board retails for $10k, the snakes each go for about $2k. The GLD is $9k and the main rack unit is $2200, with 8 in/4 out units costing $1200. So they're about the same price.

http://www.allen-heath.com/UK/News/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsId=647 (http://www.allen-heath.com/UK/News/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsId=647) Just posted today

and this
http://www.allen-heath.com/UK/News/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsId=646 (http://www.allen-heath.com/UK/News/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsId=646)

So now the GLD has an iPad ap and a personal monitoring system.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 24, 2013, 01:59:11 pm
http://www.allen-heath.com/UK/News/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsId=647 (http://www.allen-heath.com/UK/News/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsId=647) Just posted today

and this
http://www.allen-heath.com/UK/News/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsId=646 (http://www.allen-heath.com/UK/News/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsId=646)

So now the GLD has an iPad ap and a personal monitoring system.

Now all they need is the off-line editor for setting up theater stuff and I'll drain the bank account.
Title: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 24, 2013, 02:35:06 pm
GLD looks like the steady product in the cheap digital mixing world. Feature full, steady enhancements, reasonable price and they aren't racing to the bottom like the rest.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on January 24, 2013, 06:16:50 pm
Now all they need is the off-line editor for setting up theater stuff and I'll drain the bank account.

+1
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 24, 2013, 07:05:04 pm
Perhaps I don't deal with channel counts high enough to properly annoy me, but layers just have not really bothered me yet. I work on the SD8-24 and the full size 36 fader SD8 often, and I don't madly wish they were both full size. It's nice I suppose, but 36 inputs, 12 outputs plus fx returns feels fine on just 24 faders. I learned the earliest basics in analog, but I've put in way more hours on digital than analog since then. I'm sure 24 faders would get real tight real fast on a 96 input show, but I'm sure the Vi4 would manage it fine and that's still tons less than 1 fader per input. Clearly YMMV, and maybe it'll change for me as I get into bigger stuff,
who knows.  Just my thoughts.


The only time this bothers me is on desks with 16 faders on top. And then, it's mostly when I'm doing a walk up gig. 16 faders just isn't quite enough for most shows, but with careful planning it's still doable...
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Kent Thompson on January 24, 2013, 10:30:26 pm
GLD looks like the steady product in the cheap digital mixing world. Feature full, steady enhancements, reasonable price and they aren't racing to the bottom like the rest.

the only thing that I am wondering about is the construction of the pm units. The top and back with the connectors looks to be metal but the sides and bottom look to be plastic. Once they are available I might try and arrange to get one and check it out. We have been looking for a cost effective solution for a pm.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Brad Weber on January 25, 2013, 10:11:22 am
I'm sure after a certain point it's simply not feasible to have everything on the same layer, and then sub-grouping of some sort becomes necessary. I think intellegent grouping systems can make up for a low fader count. Sub-groups, DCA/VCAs, "POP" groups like the Midas has, etc. I think if it's layed out in a way that makes sense, layers really won't get in the way.
I agree that it is not just how many faders but how they function.  24 faders in one big bank is very different than 24 faders split as three banks of 8 faders.  Working with fixed fader or layer assignments is different than flexible assignments.  Working with multiple layers without electronic scribble strips, assignable color coding, etc. is different than with electronic scribble strips, assignable color coding, etc.  And so on.
 
For example, if I can assign any 8 'money' channel to one layer on 8 faders, assign other inputs to layers on another 8 faders as I want and independently select the layers for those 8 faders and also have 8 faders I can independently switch between aux send, DCA and matrix layers, that provides much greater functionality than simply having 24 faders that I can switch between 1-24, 25-48 and aux/VCA/matrix layers.
Title: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on January 25, 2013, 11:33:24 am
24 faders in one big bank is very different than 24 faders split as three banks of 8 faders.  Working with fixed fader or layer assignments is different than flexible assignments.  Working with multiple layers without electronic scribble strips, assignable color coding, etc. is different than with electronic scribble strips, assignable color coding, etc.  And so on.

That's a good point. The Digico desks have banks of 12 (2 on the SD8-24, 3 on the full size), each one banks independently, has detailed scribble strips, and is fully assignable between inputs outputs VCAs groups and etc, and each bank has 8 layers. You can quickly and easily bring up inputs 1-36 on all banks, then move back to VCAs / groups / inputs. That really helps, layers are more unpleasant on an LS9 or my SiC really. GLD looks very good on that front.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jeff Carter on January 25, 2013, 12:28:02 pm
That's a good point. The Digico desks have banks of 12 (2 on the SD8-24, 3 on the full size), each one banks independently, has detailed scribble strips, and is fully assignable between inputs outputs VCAs groups and etc, and each bank has 8 layers. You can quickly and easily bring up inputs 1-36 on all banks, then move back to VCAs / groups / inputs. That really helps, layers are more unpleasant on an LS9 or my SiC really. GLD looks very good on that front.

Yup, it's possible to lay out a GLD just about any way you want. The only downside... I've mixed about a half-dozen services at my church on it so far and haven't yet figured out yet exactly which way I want it.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Kent Thompson on January 27, 2013, 07:20:15 pm
Yup, it's possible to lay out a GLD just about any way you want. The only downside... I've mixed about a half-dozen services at my church on it so far and haven't yet figured out yet exactly which way I want it.

About twice a year I sit down with the editor and rework my shows and switch everything around on the surface lol.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 27, 2013, 07:56:47 pm
So apparently the best "48+ channel analog" is digital.......
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on January 28, 2013, 07:12:18 am
So apparently the best "48+ channel analog" is digital.......
even digital boards are analog some places in the chain.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on March 07, 2013, 08:39:52 pm
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I compiled a list of digital mixers that met the following requirements:

*At least 40 input channels
*At least 20 faders on the control surface (not including main/master faders)
*Has a remote digital snake option that can send at least 40 input channels over cat5.

Here is the list I came up with, sorted by price from highest to lowest, using "retail" price (which in this case means whatever Sweetwater or FullCompass charges):

Yamah CL3                               $36,297
Avid VENUE SC48 Remote System $36,000
Allen & Heath iLive-176               $35,998
Allen & Heath iLive-144               $32,998
Allen & Heath iLive-112               $28,998
Midas PRO2                               $24,995
Allen & Heath iLive-80                 $22,998
Yamaha M7CL-48ES                    $22,799
Allen & Heath iLive-T112              $21,998
Allen & Heath iLive-T80               $19,998
Roland M-480                            $16,985
Allen & Heath GLD-80                  $13,397
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 08, 2013, 08:53:38 am
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I compiled a list of digital mixers that met the following requirements:

*At least 40 input channels
*At least 20 faders on the control surface (not including main/master faders)
*Has a remote digital snake option that can send at least 40 input channels over cat5.

Here is the list I came up with, sorted by price from highest to lowest, using "retail" price (which in this case means whatever Sweetwater or FullCompass charges):

Yamah CL3                               $36,297
Avid VENUE SC48 Remote System $36,000
Allen & Heath iLive-176               $35,998
Allen & Heath iLive-144               $32,998
Allen & Heath iLive-112               $28,998
Midas PRO2                               $24,995
Allen & Heath iLive-80                 $22,998
Yamaha M7CL-48ES                    $22,799
Allen & Heath iLive-T112              $21,998
Allen & Heath iLive-T80               $19,998
Roland M-480                            $16,985
Allen & Heath GLD-80                  $13,397

You can add SAC to that list.  It would be under 7K
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on March 08, 2013, 10:57:33 am
You can add SAC to that list.  It would be under 7K

SAC is a completely different animal though. Plus it doesn't have its own hardware, so in order to meet the "at least 20 faders" requirement, you'd need to buy some Behringer BCF2000s or something similar (I'm not counting virtual faders in this case). That and if you want 40 input channels over cat 5 you'd need to buy some 3rd party digital snake, which would add a few thousand dollars to the price.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Brad Weber on March 08, 2013, 11:13:46 am
You can add SAC to that list.  It would be under 7K
However, as Jason noted, no CAT5 digital snake option.  And if purchased as a turnkey system from one the the providers listed on the SAC web site it looks like $10k to $14k prices for 48 channel SAC systems without any external fader controllers.  One company appears to offer a turnkey package with a 48 channel stage rack and a separate FOH case with mini-PC, 16 faders and two monitors for around $18.5k.

I think that the cost of potentially competing products has dropped significantly and that alters the comparison for many SAC systems.  A turnkey 32 channel SAC systems without any faders is apparently $7,800 to $8,500 and one can buy an X32, Si Expression or M200i with a couple of stage boxes, a road case, an iPad and in the case of the Behringer and Roland several personal monitor mixers for that price.  When you can get a new 32 channel mixer with a road case for less than the $4,5000 noted on one site for a refurbished 24 channel SAC system without any faders then that seems to alter the comparison. 
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 08, 2013, 12:41:59 pm
SAC is a completely different animal though. Plus it doesn't have its own hardware, so in order to meet the "at least 20 faders" requirement, you'd need to buy some Behringer BCF2000s or something similar (I'm not counting virtual faders in this case). That and if you want 40 input channels over cat 5 you'd need to buy some 3rd party digital snake, which would add a few thousand dollars to the price.

SAC is a completely different animal.  That is one reason I like it. I was assuming to meet the definition laid out it would have real faders and a converter between the preamps on stage and the FOH equipment (Computer, monitor, 24 faders ETC) so that the signal is run over CAT5  There are at least 3 companies that offer these converters.  Or as some other mixer companies do, place a smart stage box on the platform In the case of SAC the preamps, interface to a PC and a headless PC and run CAT5 to a control surface at FOH with faders, monitor, ETC.

There are other ways to run SAC in a split system with CAT5 between the parts of the split as well.

There are very real advantages to buying a mixer in a box.
There are very real advantages to buying a sound reinforcement system in a box
There are very real advantages to assembling a modular sound reinforcement system
There are very real advantages to assembling a modular mixer.

Pick the right tool for the operator and the job.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on March 08, 2013, 03:46:25 pm
Based on SAC's track record I would never recommend it for a church. Too much can go wrong. I've read too many horror stories from SAC users. Plus, I'm really not a fan of SAC's creator and his attitude towards customer support.

As much as I've bad-mouthed the Roland V-mixers here on PSW, the one thing they do well is relability and stability. I have never had any problems during a service. Never had bugs, glitches, or failures of any kind using this console. We did have issues like that with our Mackie TT24, which is why we replaced it.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 08, 2013, 04:03:40 pm
Based on SAC's track record I would never recommend it for a church. Too much can go wrong. I've read too many horror stories from SAC users. Plus, I'm really not a fan of SAC's creator and his attitude towards customer support.

As much as I've bad-mouthed the Roland V-mixers here on PSW, the one thing they do well is reliability and stability. I have never had any problems during a service. Never had bugs, glitches, or failures of any kind using this console. We did have issues like that with our Mackie TT24, which is why we replaced it.

Interesting.  My personal experience is with a system that has been in use 6 days a week for 3 years.
It is used by ourK-12 school and our church.  About  4 volunteers each week.

With the exception of expanding it and setting up new features like IEMs we turn it on, use it, turn it off, repeat.  I haven't needed any customer support so I can't speak to that at all.

My dream is that SAC gets some competition because I think modular mixers make sense.  I like choices and I am glad there are a lot of different mixers out there and no one best mixer. 
Title: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on March 08, 2013, 04:26:16 pm
Waves eMotion looks like it could accomplish similar goals as SAC. Just was watching a video on it. http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/waves_audio_announces_emotion_mixer_for_soundgrid/
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on March 08, 2013, 04:34:16 pm
Interesting.  My personal experience is with a system that has been in use 6 days a week for 3 years.
It is used by ourK-12 school and our church.  About  4 volunteers each week.

With the exception of expanding it and setting up new features like IEMs we turn it on, use it, turn it off, repeat.  I haven't needed any customer support so I can't speak to that at all.

My dream is that SAC gets some competition because I think modular mixers make sense.  I like choices and I am glad there are a lot of different mixers out there and no one best mixer.

I agree, I absolutely love the idea of SAC, and of modular mixers. I actually have a vision for one that I'm working on myself. I have no where near the level of coding knowledge to actually create it yet, but I think I have a good design.

With SAC it seems to be pretty hit and miss, because I know there are users like you that haven't had issues, and other users that have struggled to make it work since day 1, and don't go one show without some sort of issue. I of course cannot verify the technical proficiency of those users.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 08, 2013, 05:25:59 pm
I agree, I absolutely love the idea of SAC, and of modular mixers. I actually have a vision for one that I'm working on myself. I have no where near the level of coding knowledge to actually create it yet, but I think I have a good design.

With SAC it seems to be pretty hit and miss, because I know there are users like you that haven't had issues, and other users that have struggled to make it work since day 1, and don't go one show without some sort of issue. I of course cannot verify the technical proficiency of those users.

I think like many things it is attention to detail and good hardware.  For example, my PC only cost about $500 but it was purpose built from good quality hardware to run SAC and that is all it ever does.  It has never seen the internet. It doesn't know what to do with a DVD ETC.  It runs SAC.

I mixed using a SAC system that was set up in a large church with inputs on the platform  Main FOH control in the balcony  then in a overflow room down stairs was another control surface with it's own full mixer and it's own outputs for that rooms amps, speakers and cans for board solo.  I was at that second board and chose to take my inputs post fader from the first board because he could see the action and knew the cues.  A second overflow room had the same setup.  All tied together by CAT5.

I am not sure that most mixers could do that.

Another friend has often used his SAC mixer for plays with a live band  He has had as many as 65 inputs.  With the band in another room watching video, and receiving audio of the performers on monitors,   He opted to mix from the main floor with a laptop, a extra monitor, and faders.  All of it was tied together with CAT5  All audio was handled with SAC
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on March 09, 2013, 01:21:17 am
I think like many things it is attention to detail and good hardware.  For example, my PC only cost about $500 but it was purpose built from good quality hardware to run SAC and that is all it ever does.  It has never seen the internet. It doesn't know what to do with a DVD ETC.  It runs SAC.

I mixed using a SAC system that was set up in a large church with inputs on the platform  Main FOH control in the balcony  then in a overflow room down stairs was another control surface with it's own full mixer and it's own outputs for that rooms amps, speakers and cans for board solo.  I was at that second board and chose to take my inputs post fader from the first board because he could see the action and knew the cues.  A second overflow room had the same setup.  All tied together by CAT5.

I am not sure that most mixers could do that.

Another friend has often used his SAC mixer for plays with a live band  He has had as many as 65 inputs.  With the band in another room watching video, and receiving audio of the performers on monitors,   He opted to mix from the main floor with a laptop, a extra monitor, and faders.  All of it was tied together with CAT5  All audio was handled with SAC

I always wondered about using a server as a SAC machine. Makes sense if you think about it, redundant power supplies, hard drives, multiple CPUs and error checking RAM. A Dell PowerEdge R420 costs less than a 15" macbook pro retina and has all of those features.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 09, 2013, 09:12:13 am
I always wondered about using a server as a SAC machine. Makes sense if you think about it, redundant power supplies, hard drives, multiple CPUs and error checking RAM. A Dell PowerEdge R420 costs less than a 15" macbook pro retina and has all of those features.

A server can work. and the redundancy is a great feature.  The downside is that most of them have very loud fans.  We bought a second audio card and put it in a old donated tower computer that we cleaned and then did a fresh install of windows. 
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on March 09, 2013, 04:37:15 pm
You can add SAC to that list.  It would be under 7K

SAC is the kind of mixer that appeals to the same personality types that want to build an airplane in their garage or a boat in their basement. More power to those people that prize flexibility and have it my way above everything else. For most church people their interest stops right at user, they have zero desire to be designer, assembler, or service center.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on March 09, 2013, 04:46:34 pm
SAC is the kind of mixer that appeals to the same personality types that want to build an airplane in their garage or a boat in their basement.

Or a sound system in there church made from speakers from one company, amps from another, DSP from a third and microphones from a forth fifth six and seventh company.

The SAC mixer is just more parts of a sound reinforcement system.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Bob L. Wilson on March 09, 2013, 10:05:48 pm
Or a sound system in there church made from speakers from one company, amps from another, DSP from a third and microphones from a forth fifth six and seventh company.

The SAC mixer is just more parts of a sound reinforcement system.

Selecting complete discrete functional components from various manufacturers one can at least contact or scream at over the phone is not the same as piecing together a mixer from component parts and then using an operating system written and supported by some uncooperative clown from his spare bedroom. Lab subwoofers are proven to work great, the engineering is completely done for a builder, the driver is fully supported by Eminence and I have still seen two ever in a church setting.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Brad Weber on March 10, 2013, 12:19:38 pm
Or a sound system in there church made from speakers from one company, amps from another, DSP from a third and microphones from a forth fifth six and seventh company.

The SAC mixer is just more parts of a sound reinforcement system.
I pretty much agree which is why I look at SAC as a 'mix system' rather than a mixer.  That can have some interesting effects, for example one of the primary advantages many argue for SAC is the ability for a user to readily modify both the software and hardware, however if you want a dealer or contractor to provide and/or support a SAC System then you are likely limited to the equipment they provide and changes they approve. 

With the new lower cost digital consoles options that incorporate remote mixing, personal monitor system networks, I/O expansion and so on that have become available I don't see many consultants, contractors or dealers considering SAC and believe that it will always be a niche approach for 'hands on' DIY folks.  If a Client asked me to incorporate SAC into a project I would probably approach it as Owner Furnished Equipment rather than trying to make it part of the work, showing a box with the related inputs and outputs and leaving what was in that box up to the Owner as that seems to be the only way to obtain some of the more significant potential advantages.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on March 29, 2013, 12:29:59 am
Just curious, is there anyway to look up MSRP for Digico consoles? I can't seem to find pricing info for them anywhere.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Scott Wagner on March 29, 2013, 12:42:48 am
Just curious, is there anyway to look up MSRP for Digico consoles? I can't seem to find pricing info for them anywhere.
Pick up the phone, and call a Digico dealer.  They'd be happy to discuss pricing with you.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Tim Padrick on March 30, 2013, 09:06:27 am
Digital without layers?  No problem: http://www.stagetec.com/en/audio-technology-products/mixing-consoles/aurus.html
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 12:49:19 am
So, Iíve spent way too much time now looking at different boards and their features and control surface layouts and paid close attention to the things I really feel like Iím lacking on the Roland and where I feel Iíd a lack with other boards.

To be honest, I donít actually need a fader for every input. Especially with digital, thatís not really the issue. For me the issue is having access to the input processing controls and being able to see the input meter on every channel.

With a LFA console, you can see every meter for every input, and you have access to the gain, mute, EQ, pan, and sends for every channel all at once. Sure, there are several feet of space between channel 1 and channel 48, but you can see everything and adjust everything without pushing a single button.

With a digital console, as long as your channel count exceeds the number of strips on the surface, there are some meters you canít see and some parameters you cannot adjust without first moving to a different layer.

Thatís my problem. Itís not the number of faders; itís the inability to see everything thatís going on, or the inability to adjust parameters for things that are buried in layers without taking the time to navigate to them.

This is also one reason why I donít really care that much for DCAs but love subgroups. With a DCA you have no input meter, and you cannot use EQ or dynamics processing on a DCA. But with a subgroup, you have an idea of how hot the channels are by how hard theyíre hitting the group. Plus, you can EQ a subgroup, or slap a compressor on it. Letís say you have several background vocalists. Either a DCA or a subgroup will allow you to assign them all to one (or two if itís a stereo subgroup) fader(s) and control them all as a single unit. But with the subgroup you can EQ them to sound a little brighter or cut the highs a bit to push them back in the mix, or compress them if their dynamics are a little uneven.

So for me, itís all about which mixer gives me the ability to monitor and control everything at once. The Allen & Heath consoles, Midas PRO series, Soundcraft Vi and Avid VENUE all seem to do this pretty well.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: John Chiara on May 14, 2013, 01:40:03 am
You're kinda missing the point on the DCA/VCA benefits. You can use both and do more.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Brad Weber on May 14, 2013, 07:48:23 am
This is also one reason why I donít really care that much for DCAs but love subgroups. With a DCA you have no input meter, and you cannot use EQ or dynamics processing on a DCA. But with a subgroup, you have an idea of how hot the channels are by how hard theyíre hitting the group. Plus, you can EQ a subgroup, or slap a compressor on it. Letís say you have several background vocalists. Either a DCA or a subgroup will allow you to assign them all to one (or two if itís a stereo subgroup) fader(s) and control them all as a single unit. But with the subgroup you can EQ them to sound a little brighter or cut the highs a bit to push them back in the mix, or compress them if their dynamics are a little uneven.
Perhaps you don't grasp the basic concept behind VCAs/DCAs as they are a control function and not an audio signal path.  A VCA/DCA is essentially a way to assign multiple channel or mix bus faders to a 'master' fader that that can then adjust all the assigned faders from that single fader.  A VCA/DCA does not directly involve or affect the audio signal, it only affects other controls that in turn affect the audio.
 
In comparison, a subgroup is a mix bus and an actual audio path.  You can assign multiple channels to a subgroup but that is creating a separate mix and you are controlling that resulting mix bus audio rather than the assigned inputs.
 
An example of the difference is that if you have some channels assigned to a VCA/DCA then when you adjust that VCA/DCA master the actual channel levels change, thus all related post fader levels also change.  If you assigned those channels to a subgroup then adusting the resulting mix via the subgroup master any related post-fader levels do not change.  So say you have an ALS or overflow audio mix that is a post fader aux send then creating a 'praise band' VCA/DCA will allow adjusting the entire praise band level from a single fader including for the ALS/overflow mix.  Using a subgroup for the same purpose would not affect the ALS/overflow mix, you would have to adjust that separately.  However, because it is an actual audio path you could use a subgroup to apply processing.  As John noted, different benefits for different purposes.  Once you learn to use both VCAs/DCAs and subgroups effectively they can become a very powerful combination.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on May 14, 2013, 09:15:50 am
To be honest, I donít actually need a fader for every input. Especially with digital, thatís not really the issue. For me the issue is having access to the input processing controls and being able to see the input meter on every channel.

With a LFA console, you can see every meter for every input, and you have access to the gain, mute, EQ, pan, and sends for every channel all at once. Sure, there are several feet of space between channel 1 and channel 48, but you can see everything and adjust everything without pushing a single button.

With a digital console, as long as your channel count exceeds the number of strips on the surface, there are some meters you canít see and some parameters you cannot adjust without first moving to a different layer.

Thatís my problem. Itís not the number of faders; itís the inability to see everything thatís going on, or the inability to adjust parameters for things that are buried in layers without taking the time to navigate to them.
It seems you're possibly confusing two different issues - comparing "good/high-end analog" to "bad/low-end digital".  If you compare digital boards of similar price points to the original sale price of those large format boards in question, you'll find that there is very little left to be desired on the control surface.  What is skewing your logic now is that formerly $50,000+ analog boards are available for less than 10% of their original price, and are tempting to compare to new low-end ~$5000 digital offerings, which really were designed for a different purpose.

As it relates to speed - I'll race you on the large format analog board of your choice with my GLD any day of the week.  A steak dinner says that my GLD (or really any other reasonable digital board) is as fast or faster than your analog at least 90% of the time:
- Zeroing out the board from the last event - I zero the digital board and eat lunch before you're done zeroing out 400 pots.
- Channel naming - you can probably board tape and sharpie faster than I can type channel names, so point to analog.
- Setting initial gain structure - digital is the same or faster - individual gain knobs for the channels and meters on the surface.  Layer switching is just as fast as wheeling your chair 18" to the right.
- Patching in dynamics processors - I'll have all my compressors and gates enabled and guesstimated while you're still digging in the doghouse.
- EQing inputs - similar time for you to find the right channel as me to select the right channel.  I can copy/paste faster than you can turn 12 EQ knobs to match.
- Building monitor mixes - particularly with the GLD/IlIve with both sends on faders and reverse sends on faders - I can get mixes dialed in and have dessert while you're still using your straight edge to figure out which aux is for the Marimba player.
- Channel level monitoring - I admit this does require pressing one button on the GLD, but in addition to standard metering pages such as input level, I can build custom meter pages that show any combination of lots of kinds of metering.  Also the GLD surface has look through peak indicators so I can see if a channel is clipping on any layer at all times - a peak light illuminates next to the layer button that clipping is happening on.
- Saving/recalling your mix - while you're breaking out your knob sheet and writing everything down, then turning your 400 knobs to the new scene, I can take my afternoon nap.

Etcetera.

The primary reason to want a large format analog board is familiarity.  That's fine.  You can have an incredible feat of analog engineering for pennies on the dollar these days.  Keep in mind that there's a reason the big whales are so cheap - nearly everyone who has gotten a little experience on a reasonable digital board has figured out that it is a better way, and have voted with their wallets.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Kent Thompson on May 14, 2013, 10:13:51 am
It seems you're possibly confusing two different issues - comparing "good/high-end analog" to "bad/low-end digital".  If you compare digital boards of similar price points to the original sale price of those large format boards in question, you'll find that there is very little left to be desired on the control surface.  What is skewing your logic now is that formerly $50,000+ analog boards are available for less than 10% of their original price, and are tempting to compare to new low-end ~$5000 digital offerings, which really were designed for a different purpose.

As it relates to speed - I'll race you on the large format analog board of your choice with my GLD any day of the week.  A steak dinner says that my GLD (or really any other reasonable digital board) is as fast or faster than your analog at least 90% of the time:
- Zeroing out the board from the last event - I zero the digital board and eat lunch before you're done zeroing out 400 pots.
- Channel naming - you can probably board tape and sharpie faster than I can type channel names, so point to analog.
- Setting initial gain structure - digital is the same or faster - individual gain knobs for the channels and meters on the surface.  Layer switching is just as fast as wheeling your chair 18" to the right.
- Patching in dynamics processors - I'll have all my compressors and gates enabled and guesstimated while you're still digging in the doghouse.
- EQing inputs - similar time for you to find the right channel as me to select the right channel.  I can copy/paste faster than you can turn 12 EQ knobs to match.
- Building monitor mixes - particularly with the GLD/IlIve with both sends on faders and reverse sends on faders - I can get mixes dialed in and have dessert while you're still using your straight edge to figure out which aux is for the Marimba player.
- Channel level monitoring - I admit this does require pressing one button on the GLD, but in addition to standard metering pages such as input level, I can build custom meter pages that show any combination of lots of kinds of metering.  Also the GLD surface has look through peak indicators so I can see if a channel is clipping on any layer at all times - a peak light illuminates next to the layer button that clipping is happening on.
- Saving/recalling your mix - while you're breaking out your knob sheet and writing everything down, then turning your 400 knobs to the new scene, I can take my afternoon nap.

Etcetera.

The primary reason to want a large format analog board is familiarity.  That's fine.  You can have an incredible feat of analog engineering for pennies on the dollar these days.  Keep in mind that there's a reason the big whales are so cheap - nearly everyone who has gotten a little experience on a reasonable digital board has figured out that it is a better way, and have voted with their wallets.
Obviously the GLD does not have an off line editor but, on the iLive editor I bet I can label the channels almost as fast as someone could sharpie a strip of tape. Better yet I can get it the whole show done at home at my leisure and load it up when I get there.

Good post.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 11:01:58 am
Perhaps you don't grasp the basic concept behind VCAs/DCAs as they are a control function and not an audio signal path.  A VCA/DCA is essentially a way to assign multiple channel or mix bus faders to a 'master' fader that that can then adjust all the assigned faders from that single fader.  A VCA/DCA does not directly involve or affect the audio signal, it only affects other controls that in turn affect the audio.
 
In comparison, a subgroup is a mix bus and an actual audio path.  You can assign multiple channels to a subgroup but that is creating a separate mix and you are controlling that resulting mix bus audio rather than the assigned inputs.
 
An example of the difference is that if you have some channels assigned to a VCA/DCA then when you adjust that VCA/DCA master the actual channel levels change, thus all related post fader levels also change.  If you assigned those channels to a subgroup then adusting the resulting mix via the subgroup master any related post-fader levels do not change.  So say you have an ALS or overflow audio mix that is a post fader aux send then creating a 'praise band' VCA/DCA will allow adjusting the entire praise band level from a single fader including for the ALS/overflow mix.  Using a subgroup for the same purpose would not affect the ALS/overflow mix, you would have to adjust that separately.  However, because it is an actual audio path you could use a subgroup to apply processing.  As John noted, different benefits for different purposes.  Once you learn to use both VCAs/DCAs and subgroups effectively they can become a very powerful combination.

Thanks for the explanation Brad, although I actually did know all of that about DCAs. The reason I worded my post like that is that I've come across a few digital mixers that have DCAs and not subgroups.

For me, personally, and with what I do, I have little if any need for DCAs, but subgroups would be very useful. Right now I have a board that has DCAs and doesn't have subgroups. I'd be in the same boat if I had a Yamaha CL. Whereas the A&H and Midas consoles have subgroups in addition to DCAs.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 11:14:01 am
It seems you're possibly confusing two different issues - comparing "good/high-end analog" to "bad/low-end digital".  If you compare digital boards of similar price points to the original sale price of those large format boards in question, you'll find that there is very little left to be desired on the control surface.  What is skewing your logic now is that formerly $50,000+ analog boards are available for less than 10% of their original price, and are tempting to compare to new low-end ~$5000 digital offerings, which really were designed for a different purpose.

As it relates to speed - I'll race you on the large format analog board of your choice with my GLD any day of the week.  A steak dinner says that my GLD (or really any other reasonable digital board) is as fast or faster than your analog at least 90% of the time:
- Zeroing out the board from the last event - I zero the digital board and eat lunch before you're done zeroing out 400 pots.
- Channel naming - you can probably board tape and sharpie faster than I can type channel names, so point to analog.
- Setting initial gain structure - digital is the same or faster - individual gain knobs for the channels and meters on the surface.  Layer switching is just as fast as wheeling your chair 18" to the right.
- Patching in dynamics processors - I'll have all my compressors and gates enabled and guesstimated while you're still digging in the doghouse.
- EQing inputs - similar time for you to find the right channel as me to select the right channel.  I can copy/paste faster than you can turn 12 EQ knobs to match.
- Building monitor mixes - particularly with the GLD/IlIve with both sends on faders and reverse sends on faders - I can get mixes dialed in and have dessert while you're still using your straight edge to figure out which aux is for the Marimba player.
- Channel level monitoring - I admit this does require pressing one button on the GLD, but in addition to standard metering pages such as input level, I can build custom meter pages that show any combination of lots of kinds of metering.  Also the GLD surface has look through peak indicators so I can see if a channel is clipping on any layer at all times - a peak light illuminates next to the layer button that clipping is happening on.
- Saving/recalling your mix - while you're breaking out your knob sheet and writing everything down, then turning your 400 knobs to the new scene, I can take my afternoon nap.

Etcetera.

The primary reason to want a large format analog board is familiarity.  That's fine.  You can have an incredible feat of analog engineering for pennies on the dollar these days.  Keep in mind that there's a reason the big whales are so cheap - nearly everyone who has gotten a little experience on a reasonable digital board has figured out that it is a better way, and have voted with their wallets.

Admittedly I was doing that in the OP. But lately I've been comparing mixer features regardless of price.

The GLD is probably the best out there when it comes to price vs performance. It's nearly a perfect console. It costs about the same price as the board I'm currently using but doesn't have any of the draw backs.

And actually for me personally analog is less familiar. I've only ever mixed on digital. First board I learned to use was a Mackie TT24. Spent about 6 months on it before we got the Roland, which I've used for almost 4 years.

One argument I have for analog vs digital is the fact that it's only once a year or so that I actually have to change everything on the board. I never have to zero out everything and start completely over from scratch.

But, that's all moot in my case. Since I actually need scenes. I know I started the thread thinking an LFA might be a better fit for our church but it would never work. The problem is that we have volunteers that run the board with varying levels of knowledge, and if we had an analog setup I'd have to fix my comps and EQs every week. Most of the other sound guys at the church don't have a clue when it comes to compression, gating and EQ and if they were able to mess with my settings every week I might tear my hair out.

So yeah, if we upgrade our board it will be to digital. And I'm really hoping it'll have "Allen & Heath" printed on it somewhere...
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Aaron Nickerson on May 14, 2013, 12:57:07 pm
So for me, itís all about which mixer gives me the ability to monitor and control everything at once. The Allen & Heath consoles, Midas PRO series, Soundcraft Vi and Avid VENUE all seem to do this pretty well.

The grass is not always greener.

I run an avid venue, and even with 24 input faders, I flip between layers frequently.  Coming from the analog world to this board drove me crazy at first, and I understand your frustration.  (Personally, I could not do it without VCA/DCA's, but thats just me)

What I have found is that you have to become so familiar with your board that you can find everything you need in your sleep.  When I had to stop and think about where something was, it was already too late. 

It would drive me crazy not having the digital scribble strips, but set up your user layers up in a logical manner, invest in some magnetic labels so you can move them as needed, and become intimately familiar with your console. 

Maybe it is just me, but I can never seem to think and mix at the same time.  So do whatever you have to do to avoid thinking about the way things are set-up, so you can focus all your attention on the mixing that requires all your attention.
Title: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: jason misterka on May 14, 2013, 12:59:56 pm

For me, personally, and with what I do, I have little if any need for DCAs, but subgroups would be very useful. Right now I have a board that has DCAs and doesn't have subgroups. I'd be in the same boat if I had a Yamaha CL. Whereas the A&H and Midas consoles have subgroups in addition to DCAs.

I use subgroups on my Yamaha M7 all the time, and I am positive the CL series has them too.  They are implemented in an almost identical fashion as the Midas PRO, ie you loose a variable aux but gain a fixed group.  Either can be assigned to LR or Matrix bussing.

Jason
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 01:09:23 pm
The grass is not always greener.

I run an avid venue, and even with 24 input faders, I flip between layers frequently.  Coming from the analog world to this board drove me crazy at first, and I understand your frustration.  (Personally, I could not do it without VCA/DCA's, but thats just me)

What I have found is that you have to become so familiar with your board that you can find everything you need in your sleep.  When I had to stop and think about where something was, it was already too late. 

It would drive me crazy not having the digital scribble strips, but set up your user layers up in a logical manner, invest in some magnetic labels so you can move them as needed, and become intimately familiar with your console. 

Maybe it is just me, but I can never seem to think and mix at the same time.  So do whatever you have to do to avoid thinking about the way things are set-up, so you can focus all your attention on the mixing that requires all your attention.

I'm plenty familiar with the Roland at this point. I basically know it inside and out, and I know what I do and don't like about it.

Currently I'm still at the point where I can put the entire service on to one user layer. But we've been starting to look at adding more mics, such as putting two mics on the kick drum instead of one, two mics on the snare, individually miking each tom, moving to two mics on each guitar amp, using stereo keyboards...at some point I'm going to have to start putting inputs on different layers, and I won't be able to view their meters or adjust their parameters without changing layers.
Title: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 01:10:06 pm
I use subgroups on my Yamaha M7 all the time, and I am positive the CL series has them too.  They are implemented in an almost identical fashion as the Midas PRO, ie you loose a variable aux but gain a fixed group.  Either can be assigned to LR or Matrix bussing.

Jason

I didn't see any mention of subgroups in the manual but I'll take your word for it since I haven't ever used a CL.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on May 14, 2013, 01:12:22 pm
I'm plenty familiar with the Roland at this point. I basically know it inside and out, and I know what I do and don't like about it.

Currently I'm still at the point where I can put the entire service on to one user layer. But we've been starting to look at adding more mics, such as putting two mics on the kick drum instead of one, two mics on the snare, individually miking each tom, moving to two mics on each guitar amp, using stereo keyboards...at some point I'm going to have to start putting inputs on different layers, and I won't be able to view their meters or adjust their parameters without changing layers.
So why do you want two mics on all that stuff?  Sounds like make work to me.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 01:21:47 pm
So why do you want two mics on all that stuff?  Sounds like make work to me.

More tonal control and possibilities, plus it seems to be the thing to do nowadays. The church's we look up to are doing that.

I don't care either way, whatever we need to do to get the sound we want.
Title: Re: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Brad Weber on May 14, 2013, 01:32:36 pm
I didn't see any mention of subgroups in the manual but I'll take your word for it since I haven't ever used a CL.
Yamaha mix buses can be selected to be fixed and variable mix buses as well as pre or post fader.  A variable mix bus is analogous to an aux bus where you adjust the level for the related send while a post-fader fixed mix bus is similar to a subgroup where the channel is assigned but the send level is fixed.  Different terminology but the same basic functionality.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Aaron Nickerson on May 14, 2013, 01:39:30 pm
Currently I'm still at the point where I can put the entire service on to one user layer. But we've been starting to look at adding more mics, such as putting two mics on the kick drum instead of one, two mics on the snare, individually miking each tom, moving to two mics on each guitar amp, using stereo keyboards...at some point I'm going to have to start putting inputs on different layers, and I won't be able to view their meters or adjust their parameters without changing layers.
If they are set up properly, how often do you really need to adjust the relationship between two kick mics, two snare mics, two amp mics, etc....

I have a baby grand on stage with two mics (even though I am at a larger church, i don't double mic anything else, though I do have a mic on each tom), I have gotten to the point where I have set them up how I want it to be, and I control it (along with my keys) on a VCA.  I can throw all three on a second layer and forget about them if I want to.  I make sure everything is good during sound check & rehearsal, then very rarely ever have to adjust the two piano mics individually during service.  I don't like losing the control of having everything on the top layer, but there are some things that if I do my job right, I should not need access to (in my personal situation).

Let's be honest, if you had two mics on everything you wanted to have two mics on, and it was set up properly, how often would you need to adjust them individually during service?

Personally, I have had to carefully consider the channels I have, and I have found some that I don't often need to mess with during service (assuming I have an overall VCA control).  For my situation that is BGVs and Piano/Keys.  So when I can't fit everything on the top layer, that is what I move to the second tier.  If I were in your shoes, and wanted to find a way to get more channels, I would consider using the DCA's on your console, they may make you not even miss the channels you have to put on the second layer.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on May 14, 2013, 01:40:23 pm
More tonal control and possibilities, plus it seems to be the thing to do nowadays. The church's we look up to are doing that.

I don't care either way, whatever we need to do to get the sound we want.
And more problems, and more complexity, and apparently in your case, a new mixing board.  Sound quality depends on:
1. Talent
2. Talent
3. Talent
4. Competency of tech staff
5. Ratio of stage volume to PA volume
6. Room acoustics
7. Speaker system quality and deployment
8. Having enough of everything - cables, mics (one per thing), IEMs, etc., that work and are reliable
9. A reasonable mixing board - which your Roland is

Everything else is a rounding error.  Presumably the big churches you look up to have the above list nailed down.

Personally, even if I/our church had all these things nailed down perfectly, I'd still struggle with the extra complexity and cost of two mics per guitar amp, etc., simply because it's perfectly possible to get great sound without this, and the money can likely be better spent elsewhere.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 01:58:00 pm
If they are set up properly, how often do you really need to adjust the relationship between two kick mics, two snare mics, two amp mics, etc....

I have a baby grand on stage with two mics (even though I am at a larger church, i don't double mic anything else, though I do have a mic on each tom), I have gotten to the point where I have set them up how I want it to be, and I control it (along with my keys) on a VCA.  I can throw all three on a second layer and forget about them if I want to.  I make sure everything is good during sound check & rehearsal, then very rarely ever have to adjust the two piano mics individually during service.  I don't like losing the control of having everything on the top layer, but there are some things that if I do my job right, I should not need access to (in my personal situation).

Let's be honest, if you had two mics on everything you wanted to have two mics on, and it was set up properly, how often would you need to adjust them individually during service?

Personally, I have had to carefully consider the channels I have, and I have found some that I don't often need to mess with during service (assuming I have an overall VCA control).  For my situation that is BGVs and Piano/Keys.  So when I can't fit everything on the top layer, that is what I move to the second tier.  If I were in your shoes, and wanted to find a way to get more channels, I would consider using the DCA's on your console, they may make you not even miss the channels you have to put on the second layer.

I'd probably be adjust them about as much as I adjust anything else. Every song is different.

So far I've yet to find a way to "set up" everything to the point where I don't still have to make EQ or adjustments or have to watch the meters during the actual worship set.

The problem is that I'm working with humans. They have a tendency to play inconsistently sometimes. They often play louder or softer during the actual worship set than they do during sound check. Or maybe the guitar player's pedals are all messed up and I see a 10dB jump on the meter when they stomp on a pedal. Or maybe the singer was being really soft during sound check and I had to give them some extra gain and then they belt it out during the set.

And then with things like dual kick mics where one has more of a snap to it and one has more "oomph", I might want more "oomph" and less "snap" in one song and want the opposite in the next song.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 02:01:22 pm
And more problems, and more complexity, and apparently in your case, a new mixing board.  Sound quality depends on:
1. Talent
2. Talent
3. Talent
4. Competency of tech staff
5. Ratio of stage volume to PA volume
6. Room acoustics
7. Speaker system quality and deployment
8. Having enough of everything - cables, mics (one per thing), IEMs, etc., that work and are reliable
9. A reasonable mixing board - which your Roland is

Everything else is a rounding error.  Presumably the big churches you look up to have the above list nailed down.

Personally, even if I/our church had all these things nailed down perfectly, I'd still struggle with the extra complexity and cost of two mics per guitar amp, etc., simply because it's perfectly possible to get great sound without this, and the money can likely be better spent elsewhere.

Well, the multi-mics is something the band is pushing for more than me. The band leader is a guitar player and is looking at what options he's got. We're all kind of collectively trying to figure out how we can improve our sound and gear is easier to get than talent...lol.

Like I said though, I'm honestly up for whatever it takes to get us sounding good. Whether that means more mics, less mics, whatever.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Aaron Nickerson on May 14, 2013, 02:31:07 pm
I'd probably be adjust them about as much as I adjust anything else. Every song is different....

The problem is that I'm working with humans. They have a tendency to play inconsistently sometimes. They often play louder or softer during the actual worship set than they do during sound check. Or maybe the guitar player's pedals are all messed up and I see a 10dB jump on the meter when they stomp on a pedal. Or maybe the singer was being really soft during sound check and I had to give them some extra gain and then they belt it out during the set.

And then with things like dual kick mics where one has more of a snap to it and one has more "oomph", I might want more "oomph" and less "snap" in one song and want the opposite in the next song.

I do adjust all that song to song, but I do it with snapshots or VCA's.  I am not familiar with the snapshot features on your particular console, but a lot of the adjustments you mentioned can be made very easily between songs with a snapshot on most digital consoles.  Every Sunday, I have at least one snapshot for each song, and I can and have changed pretty much everything with the push of a button.  If you are not taking advantage of what your console can do with snapshots, that might help. 

As far as new gear goes... as TJ said, talent is by far the biggest factor in determining the quality of sound.  You can overcome poor gear with good talent, you cannot overcome bad talent with good gear. 

As my mentor used to tell me when I was just learning this stuff , crap in, crap out.  Increase the talent, and you will increase the sound quality.  One of our drummers really struggles to stay on tempo.  More mics is not going to solve that problem.  =D
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 03:15:34 pm
I do adjust all that song to song, but I do it with snapshots or VCA's.  I am not familiar with the snapshot features on your particular console, but a lot of the adjustments you mentioned can be made very easily between songs with a snapshot on most digital consoles.  Every Sunday, I have at least one snapshot for each song, and I can and have changed pretty much everything with the push of a button.  If you are not taking advantage of what your console can do with snapshots, that might help. 

As far as new gear goes... as TJ said, talent is by far the biggest factor in determining the quality of sound.  You can overcome poor gear with good talent, you cannot overcome bad talent with good gear. 

As my mentor used to tell me when I was just learning this stuff , crap in, crap out.  Increase the talent, and you will increase the sound quality.  One of our drummers really struggles to stay on tempo.  More mics is not going to solve that problem.  =D

The problem with using scenes/snapshots is that I can't predict some changes. I used to use scenes more but I got away from that because it was actually hurting more than helping. It's been a long time since then so I might try that especially if we start using more mics.

I've learned over time and am reminded constantly that gear is no replacement for talent. Whether you use one mic or a thousand, a good band will sound good and a bad band will sound bad.
Title: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on May 14, 2013, 03:46:06 pm
While you can mix your kick and and kick out all night, I think you'll find that isn't how most people use them. I use multiple kick mic's to better capture a more complex sound, or process 'click' and 'boom' separately. If available I'll gang them or put them on a VCA.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Aaron Nickerson on May 14, 2013, 03:49:15 pm
The problem with using scenes/snapshots is that I can't predict some changes.
Isn't that the truth!  Last month I had a guitarist that switched from a telecaster to a les paul between sunday sound check and first service without telling anyone.... Another week I had a lead singer and BGV accidentally swap mics back stage (despite having their names in the mics on gaff in silver sharpie)

But despite the unpredictable, I have found snapshots to be a great help.  It allows me to make changes quickly between songs in a service that would be a lot more complicated without it.  This past Sunday I had one song that was lead by one of my BGVs, So I had to pull her out of my BGV DCA, run her through the lead vox reverb instead of the BGV reverb, and make the opposite changes on the singer who lead the other songs.  EQ changes on both singers, Plus the changes for everyones monitors, who needed the new lead singer on that song, but not the others.  Plus the basic volume mix to start the song, plus changes to my noise gate on my toms, and a few other changes I can't remember off the top of my head, all with the push of a button.  And then changed again at the end of a song with another button push.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: brian maddox on May 14, 2013, 04:01:40 pm
And more problems, and more complexity, and apparently in your case, a new mixing board.  Sound quality depends on:
1. Talent
2. Talent
3. Talent
4. Competency of tech staff
5. Ratio of stage volume to PA volume
6. Room acoustics
7. Speaker system quality and deployment
8. Having enough of everything - cables, mics (one per thing), IEMs, etc., that work and are reliable
9. A reasonable mixing board - which your Roland is

Everything else is a rounding error.  Presumably the big churches you look up to have the above list nailed down.

Personally, even if I/our church had all these things nailed down perfectly, I'd still struggle with the extra complexity and cost of two mics per guitar amp, etc., simply because it's perfectly possible to get great sound without this, and the money can likely be better spent elsewhere.

okay, i think this needs to go somewhere that we can just copy and paste it whenever we need it.  So much truth.  So few words.

Most importantly, if there isn't talent on the stage, you're not gonna get where you want to go, no matter what gear you have.  I learned as i moved up the sound mixing food chain that as the acts got better, my job got easier.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jeff Foster on May 14, 2013, 04:11:54 pm
<snip>...it seems to be the thing to do nowadays. The church's we look up to are doing that.

WORST.  REASONS.  EVER.

If you understand the concepts, all your staff are capable of properly working with that setup, AND it accomplishes a need or fixes a problem, then by all means, do it.  But DON'T ever do something just because the church up the street is doing that.  Their church is different, with different staff, different musicians, different equipment, and a different room.  You need to look at what works for you and not what works for them.

I've looked at mega-churches to see what they are doing and see how certain things might be adapted to meet our needs, but I never look at someone else's system and think that I have to do something too just because they do it that way.  In fact, I know of one mega church around here that does the exact opposite of what works for us on one thing....they have all their praise team on wireless mics and use a single wired mic for special soloists.  I keep all our praise team wired and use wireless only for special vocalists.  If I tried to do what they did, I'd increase my battery expenditures by more than 6 times, inevitably have frequency coordination issues, vocalists that swap mics without telling anyone, etc.  What that church does may work for them because they have the staff to handle all that wireless coordination.  If I had a staff member dedicated to wireless equipment, that might make sense for us too.  But I don't, and I don't need the extra hassle (and cost).

I'm sorry if this comes off strong, but this is one big sticking point that I have with my staff.  Don't ever come to me and tell me that we need to change something because you saw it done that way somewhere else - even if it is a good idea.  I want to hear why that approach will work for US before I'll even consider it.  Show me that you're concerned with our services and our people first, then we'll consider doing what you saw somewhere else.

It's fine to look at what others are doing and think through whether or not that approach will work for you, but don't ever do something just because someone else does it that way.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 04:22:34 pm
It's fine to look at what others are doing and think through whether or not that approach will work for you, but don't ever do something just because someone else does it that way.

That's all I do.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 04:23:21 pm
While you can mix your kick and and kick out all night, I think you'll find that isn't how most people use them. I use multiple kick mic's to better capture a more complex sound, or process 'click' and 'boom' separately. If available I'll gang them or put them on a VCA.

Processing 'click' and 'boom' separately would be the goal in this case.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on May 14, 2013, 04:34:11 pm
Processing 'click' and 'boom' separately would be the goal in this case.
Which you can get 80% of the benefit of with the one mic split into two channels.  I often do this with a Cajon.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Tommy Peel on May 14, 2013, 05:42:01 pm
Which you can get 80% of the benefit of with the one mic split into two channels.  I often do this with a Cajon.

I might have to get a splitter and try this next time our band "goes acoustic". Just curious, would there be much benefit using two channels on an analog board with limited outboard(I might be able to spare a comp/gate for each but probably would have to pick which channel got it)? I'm usually pretty happy with a '57 in the hole on the back pointed up at around a 45į angle, but sometimes I can't get the sound I'd like to out of it.
Title: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on May 14, 2013, 06:39:45 pm
Processing 'click' and 'boom' separately would be the goal in this case.

I agree, but once I accomplish that goal, the kick becomes on unit again for me. Rarely do I ride or alter that kickin / kickout throughout the night or from song to song like you are suggesting. If I do, it's unusual enough that I wouldn't mind digging through layers a bit.

@TJ - A guy I trained under for several years did that with cajon also. At a venue I often work we've usually got plenty of setup time, mics, and channels so it isn't much trouble. Also, with going bands I often don't know what the kicks will sound like and having an alternative mic keeps the options open from the start without having to change mics.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 14, 2013, 07:02:05 pm
I agree, but once I accomplish that goal, the kick becomes on unit again for me. Rarely do I ride or alter that kickin / kickout throughout the night or from song to song like you are suggesting. If I do, it's unusual enough that I wouldn't mind digging through layers a bit.

@TJ - A guy I trained under for several years did that with cajon also. At a venue I often work we've usually got plenty of setup time, mics, and channels so it isn't much trouble. Also, with going bands I often don't know what the kicks will sound like and having an alternative mic keeps the options open from the start without having to change mics.

I've noticed with our current single mic setup that sometimes the kick seems to be totally buried and I feel like I'm missing some "punch" from it. Other times, especially during some parts of songs where there's only drums and vocal, there's too much "punch" or "click" to the sound and I really just want a "thump". So that's at least one example I can think of where I'd probably change up the relationship between the two mics. But I agree that for the most part I'd keep them together. But I'd use a subgroup rather than a DCA in this case.
Title: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on May 15, 2013, 12:48:05 am
I've noticed with our current single mic setup that sometimes the kick seems to be totally buried and I feel like I'm missing some "punch" from it. Other times, especially during some parts of songs where there's only drums and vocal, there's too much "punch" or "click" to the sound and I really just want a "thump". So that's at least one example I can think of where I'd probably change up the relationship between the two mics. But I agree that for the most part I'd keep them together. But I'd use a subgroup rather than a DCA in this case.

What if you already have the drums going to a subgroup?

 It's all well and good, use whatever you want, especially if your intent is o put both channels into one compressor together, which definitely don't do when doing kick in and out, but you're sort of rejecting VCAs without fully understanding their distinct purpose alongside subgroups. Here is a technique I frequently employ at front of house - Dave Rat uses this technique as well and has a whole video about it: I will have drums going to a subgroup, and drums assigned to a VCA. This way I've got two controls for the drums. I'll put a compressor on the subgroup. Now if I want to turn the drums up, I raise the subgroup fader. I've got a second option though - I can raise the drum VCA. This is like raising each drum fader before going into the subgroup, in this case turning the drums up but BEFORE the compressor, driving it into the comp harder at the same time as turning it up. This allows a really crazy amount of control over compression and drum levels just on 2 faders. On my default FOH scene at my regular gig I've got one of my fader banks set as 6 subgroups and 6 VCAs paired together. VCAs are also a huge deal if you have post-fader vocal FX, as the VCA will affect those post fader sends unlike a subgroup.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 15, 2013, 01:05:56 am
What if you already have the drums going to a subgroup?

 It's all well and good, use whatever you want, especially if your intent is o put both channels into one compressor together, which definitely don't do when doing kick in and out, but you're sort of rejecting VCAs without fully understanding their distinct purpose alongside subgroups. Here is a technique I frequently employ at front of house - Dave Rat uses this technique as well and has a whole video about it: I will have drums going to a subgroup, and drums assigned to a VCA. This way I've got two controls for the drums. I'll put a compressor on the subgroup. Now if I want to turn the drums up, I raise the subgroup fader. I've got a second option though - I can raise the drum VCA. This is like raising each drum fader before going into the subgroup, in this case turning the drums up but BEFORE the compressor, driving it into the comp harder at the same time as turning it up. This allows a really crazy amount of control over compression and drum levels just on 2 faders. On my default FOH scene at my regular gig I've got one of my fader banks set as 6 subgroups and 6 VCAs paired together. VCAs are also a huge deal if you have post-fader vocal FX, as the VCA will affect those post fader sends unlike a subgroup.

I'm not rejecting VCAs, I just don't need them. Or at least not very many of them. They have their place of course. I watched the same video by Dave talking about using VCAs to control inputs before and after a bus compressor.

I wouldn't ever put the entire drum kit into one subgroup though. I'd really be missing the ability to adjust individual elements of the kit. I prefer Dave's method of splitting the drums into kick+snare, toms, and cymbals. I'd take it one step further and put the kick and snare in separate groups.

Unfortunately a lot of consoles don't let you unlink compressors on stereo subgroups. This is one of the few things I don't like about the iLive/GLD.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on May 15, 2013, 01:54:59 am
I wouldn't ever put the entire drum kit into one subgroup though. I'd really be missing the ability to adjust individual elements of the kit. I prefer Dave's method of splitting the drums into kick+snare, toms, and cymbals. I'd take it one step further and put the kick and snare in separate groups.

Wouldn't ever? I'm not missing any ability to adjust individual elements of the kit. Where do I lose that ability? Dave's method is all well and good, he is obviously Dave Rat, but there is nothing wrong with a drum subgroup in live mixing. I try not to say never.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 15, 2013, 10:42:01 am
Wouldn't ever? I'm not missing any ability to adjust individual elements of the kit. Where do I lose that ability? Dave's method is all well and good, he is obviously Dave Rat, but there is nothing wrong with a drum subgroup in live mixing. I try not to say never.

I see no benefit to putting the entire kit in a group, personally. Not for live anyway.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Tommy Peel on May 15, 2013, 11:00:42 am
I see no benefit to putting the entire kit in a group, personally. Not for live anyway.

I run a 16ch analog board(has 4 sub groups that can be used mono or paired in stereo) the only thing I've found useful to run through a group is the drums. I don't compress the drums as a whole but I find it useful to be able to adjust the volume of the entire kit; mainly I just use it to turn the drum mics on and off so I don't have to individually mute 6 channels. Even doing this I can still adjust each mic individually with their fader; if I had a VCA I'd probably use that instead of a group.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: George Dougherty on May 15, 2013, 11:13:33 am
I see no benefit to putting the entire kit in a group, personally. Not for live anyway.

I regularly put everything but overheads into a subgroup for parallel compression. I tend to compress the overheads a bit more to begin with but the other gives a nice fat sound on the whole kit. That subgroup then gets mixed in to taste depending on the feel of the song.

VCA/DCA's are a different matter. The whole kit goes in one. My regulars are Leads, BgV, VoxFx, keys, gtrs, bass, drums and spoken word. Subgroups on leads, BgV, parallel drums and spoken word at a minimum. Patch a deesser and eq across the spoken word for feedback control and universal de-easing where you have limited processing. Use a sidechain filter on a normal comp with fast attack and release to make a de-esser if the desk doesn't include one (like the gld80 I was on this weekend).
Title: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Samuel Rees on May 15, 2013, 01:25:46 pm
I see no benefit to putting the entire kit in a group, personally. Not for live anyway.

I think I'd prefer if you come listen to a mix of mine, rather than claiming I'm doing something of "no benefit" from afar. There is nothing facially unreasonable about a full drum bus. You can apply broad EQ strokes to the bus, control the entire drum volume with 1 fader, take a db or two off the top with a comp to glue the drums together, or apply a multiband compressor to address buildup of certain frees over multiple mics. I feel weird defending this practice that I've seen plenty of professionals do. I hope you don't interrupt your BEs to inform them there is "no benefit" to their mix strategies.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jason Lucas on May 15, 2013, 01:46:53 pm
I think I'd prefer if you come listen to a mix of mine, rather than claiming I'm doing something of "no benefit" from afar. There is nothing facially unreasonable about a full drum bus. You can apply broad EQ strokes to the bus, control the entire drum volume with 1 fader, take a db or two off the top with a comp to glue the drums together, or apply a multiband compressor to address buildup of certain frees over multiple mics. I feel weird defending this practice that I've seen plenty of professionals do. I hope you don't interrupt your BEs to inform them there is "no benefit" to their mix strategies.

You're misunderstanding me. I see no benefit to me. Huuuuuuge difference.

I'm sure what you do works for you otherwise you wouldn't be doing it, right?  ;)

I understand the logic behind processing the kit as a whole, but I personally prefer not to do that. At least for live.
Title: Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
Post by: Jared Koopman on May 17, 2013, 04:32:25 pm
You're misunderstanding me. I see no benefit to me. Huuuuuuge difference.

I'm sure what you do works for you otherwise you wouldn't be doing it, right?  ;)

I understand the logic behind processing the kit as a whole, but I personally prefer not to do that. At least for live.

WIth our new digital console I dont use subgroups anymore except to feed the personal monitor system and the recording broadcast. We do use DCA's all the time now and I love them after not having any VCA/DCA on our previous console.