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Church and H.O.W. Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => H.O.W. AV => Topic started by: Tom Hulbert on January 09, 2013, 09:48:01 am

Title: New A/V For Growing Church
Post by: Tom Hulbert on January 09, 2013, 09:48:01 am
Our church is growing, and we'll be erecting a new building in just a matter of three or four years.
With this growth comes the need to expand our A/V department. Right now it's just audio with very simple analog set up(no fancy rack equipment), we are in the process of doing a little upgrading to our current system, I pretty much have that all wrapped up, now I want to move to the video side.

On the table we already have the desire for live video feed to other parts of the "campus" (e.g. fellowship hall, foyer, nursery, etc.) I want to take that a little farther and add digital signage to the mix.
My vision for this is: Single cam(possibly more as needed/want) feed to some sort of distribution, which will then be sent to t.vs in various places. When church is not in service the t.vs will display digital signage.
What would be great if the live feed can be sent through a computer in the sound booth, and when church is over techs can switch to digital signage. also any time during the week church staff can change the signage through any computer in their office instead of having to do it from the sound booth.
Is this something that's feasible or just in Dreamland Baptist Church?
Also what would a setup like this cost(without the variables of cable runs) I just want a ballpark figure.

Note: I'm more of a sound tech than a video guy but I do have my feet wet in some video production.
Thanks
Title: Re: New A/V For Growing Church
Post by: craig russ on January 10, 2013, 11:32:52 pm
Hi Tom,

I do this in my church, with things bought 5-10 years ago.

If I were doing this today, I would try something like the following.  Disclaimer: I have not actually used the current models any of the equipment mentioned, though I have used older models of many of the items.  (Our equipment is from Sony, Extron, Kramer, and Panasonic, so I mention those sources below.  There are many other good choices.)

Camera choices:
  - A 720p or 1080i camcorder with hdmi output, on a tripod.
    Make sure the hdmi output is active even when not recording.
  - SD PTZ camera, such as Sony EVI-D80
  - HD PTZ camera, such as Sony EVI-H100V or BRC-Z330
  - To control a PTZ camera, anything
        - from the IR remote that comes with the camera
        - to expensive remote control devices from Sony, Vadeo, ...

Computer to display presentations:
  - Some old Windows XP computer, with a $20 video card capable of some 16x9 resolution
  - Anything better

Video switch:
  - Kramer VP-728, if to be located in sound booth or controlled over RS-232
  - Kramer VP-729, if to be located elsewhere and controlled over LAN

Feed the camera to the video switch:
  - HDMI if camera is camcorder
  - s-video if SD PTZ camera
  - 720p HD component or 1080i HD component if HD PTZ camera

Feed the computer to the video switch

Provide control of the video switch from the sound booth:
  - If the switch is in the sound booth, you are already done
  - Otherwise, use RS-232 or your building LAN

Distribute video from video switch to TVs:
  - This is the hard part
  - Set video switch to output 720p or 1080i HD component
  - For short runs, you could use standard analog computer cables and distribution amplifiers.
    Examples:
        http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=mmvgamoldconc&subtype=55&s=4
        http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=mmvgabsllconcplnm&subtype=55&s=4
        http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=p2da6xi&subtype=32&s=4
        Other sources, such as Kramer
        Kramer C-GM/3RVM at TV
        Carefully check specifications for max run length at 720p/1080i
  - For longer runs, or if you have lots of plenum runs, analog over UTP might be cheaper
    Examples:
        http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=mtpt15hdaret&subtype=216&s=4
        http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=mtpr15hda&subtype=216&s=4
        http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=mtpda4&subtype=216&item=1&s=3
        http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=enskewfreeavutpc&subtype=261&s=4
        Many other sources, such as Kramer
        Carefully check specifications for max run length at 720p/1080i
        Some of these products can transmit audio along with the video, if you need that.
  - I have no experience with them, but there are analog video to HD RF signal converters
        HD RF is ATSC (over the air) or QAM (cable) format
        Distribute to TVs with RG-6 cable, spliters, amplifiers
  - There are ways to send video over LAN
        I have no experience with this
  - BlackMagic (and other sources) have converters from analog to HD-SDI and back
        HD-SDI distributes over (high quality) coax

TVs:
  - Any current LCD, LED, or Plasma TV will work
        - Use the component input
        - The HD15 input might not support 16x9 resolutions
          (this is why the video switch should output HD component)
  - Professional displays (made for constant use) are available for higher cost
        e.g Panasonic TH series

Software for computer
  - Prepare presentations with PowerPoint (or something equivalent)
  - Format presentations for 16/9 aspect ratio
  - Use lan to get presentations to computer
  - Run powerpoint or powerpoint viewer or whatever on the computer
  - We run a simple program I wrote
      - the presentations are placed in a shared drive on the computer
      - only desired people have access
      - the presentations are called sunday.ppt, monday.ppt, ...
      - the program finds the presentation for the current day and
        launches powerpoint to display it
      - the program checks every 30 seconds to see if the presentation
        for the current day has changed.  If so, powerpoint is restarted
        with the new presentation

regards,
craig
   
       
       

Title: Re: New A/V For Growing Church
Post by: Jordan Wolf on January 11, 2013, 08:17:10 am
I do this in my church, with things bought 5-10 years ago...
Craig,

Have you encountered any issues with HDCP compliant devices interfacing with your system?  If so, how did you deal with/solve the issue(s)?

I'm noticing more consumer-grade devices being utilized in the "pro" market, or at least brought in by well-meaning individuals to use for certain events.  I've back-burnered my research into the subject, but I know there's going to come a day when I'll need to make something work for a client.
Title: Re: New A/V For Growing Church
Post by: craig russ on January 11, 2013, 07:42:39 pm
Sorry Jordan, I have not tried integrating consumer hdmi.

I guess I was assuming (based on my positive experiences with Kramer and Extron analog video products) that they would get hdmi right.  Also, I was assuming that camcorders would not produce HDCP protected hdmi data.

I just checked the manual for the Kramer VP-728.  It states that the hdmi inputs are HDCP compliant, and that HDCP protected hdmi input is not presented on the analog output.  The VP-728 has 3 or 4 options for how HDCP is handled, but none break HDCP compliance.

(Our setup uses an 8 year old Sony EVI-D70.)

regards,
craig



Craig,

Have you encountered any issues with HDCP compliant devices interfacing with your system?  If so, how did you deal with/solve the issue(s)?

I'm noticing more consumer-grade devices being utilized in the "pro" market, or at least brought in by well-meaning individuals to use for certain events.  I've back-burnered my research into the subject, but I know there's going to come a day when I'll need to make something work for a client.
Title: Re: New A/V For Growing Church
Post by: Tom Hulbert on January 11, 2013, 09:33:25 pm
Craig,
Thanks for all the details, when I have some free time I'll look at all that and see if I can come up with something. I'm praying that as our church moves forward we'll deffinately be upgrading and adding a video ministry as well.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: New A/V For Growing Church
Post by: craig russ on January 12, 2013, 07:39:00 am
Hi Jordan,

I found the following white paper from Kramer:

http://www.kramerelectronics.com/downloads/white-papers/hdmi_challenges_whitepaper_3.pdf

Good info.

regards,
craig
Title: Re: New A/V For Growing Church
Post by: Brad Weber on January 12, 2013, 07:51:51 am
Sorry Jordan, I have not tried integrating consumer hdmi.

I guess I was assuming (based on my positive experiences with Kramer and Extron analog video products) that they would get hdmi right.  Also, I was assuming that camcorders would not produce HDCP protected hdmi data.

I just checked the manual for the Kramer VP-728.  It states that the hdmi inputs are HDCP compliant, and that HDCP protected hdmi input is not presented on the analog output.  The VP-728 has 3 or 4 options for how HDCP is handled, but none break HDCP compliance.
I think Jordan's point is that modern video systems can get complex not just regarding HDCP but also for EDID, resolutions, formats, etc.  And that complexity can increase with some devices that may handle HDCP differently, for example enabling whenever connected to an HDCP input rather than only when the content requires it or only having a single HDCP key.  Or when you have to feed multiple devices with different formats, resolutions and inputs.
 
Thus such systems require some thought and planning, just throwing products at it can result in all sorts of problems and additional costs.  Just a few things in Tom's situation that I would want to clarify first are:
  In general, in order to develop effective solution one has to first understand why you are wanting to do something and what you are really hoping to achieve.  An audio, video or lighting system is not a bunch of equipment, it is there to provide some function or support some goal and so the best way to get effective and successful systems is starting out with defining the goals and expectations.  Then you have to consider factors you have to work with such as possible device locations, available cabling paths, available power and so on.  Only after those efforts can you really start to put together an informed system concept that addresses the goals defined and conditions imposed.