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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Wireless and Communications => Topic started by: Steve Anderson on August 13, 2012, 10:44:44 am

Title: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Steve Anderson on August 13, 2012, 10:44:44 am
Has anyone tried this new system out yet?
http://www.greengocom.com/ (http://www.greengocom.com/)
If so, thoughts or experiences?

Looks clever, no base station, no limit to users (well 3750, but who would put their hand up to work on that show) and 250 partylines... it won awards at PLASA and LDI...

Cheers
Steve
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 13, 2012, 11:59:52 am
Has anyone tried this new system out yet?
http://www.greengocom.com/ (http://www.greengocom.com/)
If so, thoughts or experiences?

Looks clever, no base station, no limit to users (well 3750, but who would put their hand up to work on that show) and 250 partylines... it won awards at PLASA and LDI...

Cheers
Steve

Pete Erskine at Best Audio.  He just did that little ol' gig in London.  Take a look further down the Classic LAB index page...
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Steve Anderson on August 13, 2012, 12:44:33 pm
Pete Erskin at Best Audio.  He just did that little ol' gig in London.  Take a look further down the Classic LAB index page...
Haha… true, yes he did  :)

However, I wouldn't think a giant pool of partylines would scale to that size gig… but maybe he's played with it?
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Pete Erskine on August 13, 2012, 01:27:29 pm
Looks clever, no base station, no limit to users (well 3750, but who would put their hand up to work on that show) and 250 partylines... it won awards at PLASA and LDI...

This looks very interesting.  Too bad the website is lacking any real information.  The quick setup paper is about it.
I haven't used it, yet.  What I wonder is:
1.  What they consider low latency?
2.  What is the effect of poor QoS Ethernet, esp if some of the system is connected by WiFi
3.  Is there a way to program it off line?  No info on site but there seems to be some talk of a laptop.
4.  Can beltpacks be cloned?  I will reall need to know this for a 3000+ beltpack system.
5.  Can the setup be saved?
6.  What is the audio BW?
7.  PoE has limited current supply.  Maybe they should recommend some switches or hubs which can support 30+ beltpacks on a string.
8.  Can you Y the signal without a hub, like Helixnet?
9.  Each BP has a loop thru switch - too bad it isn't 3 port.
10.  Do I need to program at each BP or master station or can I do it over the net.  This id really the crux.
Master station with only 32 switches is not adequate for the Olympics but fine for most shows.
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Henry Cohen on August 13, 2012, 02:34:24 pm
From the "Quick Start User Guide (http://www.greengocom.com/downloadFiles/Green-GO%20Quick%20Users%20Guide.pdf)":

This looks very interesting.  Too bad the website is lacking any real information.  The quick setup paper is about it.
I haven't used it, yet.  What I wonder is:
1.  What they consider low latency?
12mS

Quote
2.  What is the effect of poor QoS Ethernet, esp if some of the system is connected by WiFi
"The switches need to support Quality of Service (QoS) or IEEE 801.2p."

Quote
3.  Is there a way to program it off line?  No info on site but there seems to be some talk of a laptop.
4.  Can beltpacks be cloned?  I will reall need to know this for a 3000+ beltpack system.
"Clone Configuration: The top line will show the name of the current configuration. Cancel will exit this menu without changing anything. Next up to 4 other configurations found on the network will be shows and can be selected. The last option at the bottom of the list will be to load the Factory Default configuration file."

Quote
5.  Can the setup be saved?
6.  What is the audio BW?
The pdf says it's a 16kHz sample frequency with 16-bit dynamic range. Each source is 340kBits/sec (I presume bi-directional). So my guess would be 8kHz audio bandwidth.

Quote
7.  PoE has limited current supply.  Maybe they should recommend some switches or hubs which can support 30+ beltpacks on a string.
8.  Can you Y the signal without a hub, like Helixnet?
9.  Each BP has a loop thru switch - too bad it isn't 3 port.
10.  Do I need to program at each BP or master station or can I do it over the net.  This id really the crux.
Master station with only 32 switches is not adequate for the Olympics but fine for most shows.
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Philip Roberts on August 14, 2012, 12:10:44 am
http://www.greengocom.com/ (http://www.greengocom.com/)
If so, thoughts or experiences?

Looks clever, no base station, no limit to users (well 3750, but who would put their hand up to work on that show) and 250 partylines... it won awards at PLASA and LDI...

I saw them at Infocomm, a little tiny booth at the FAR end of central shared with some interesting LED off topics after market mods. They said the only reason there is a limit on channels and users is that people didn't believe them when they had earlier said "unlimited". :)

I don't think I got the chance to listen to it as they were having some connection problems (1st hour of 1st day of show).

This looks very interesting.  Too bad the website is lacking any real information.  The quick setup paper is about it.
I think the quick start guide is new, I don't remember seeing it on the site a few weeks ago.
Quote
8.  Can you Y the signal without a hub, like Helixnet?
No, this is an Ethernet based system so like all Ethernet each cable link is single point to single point.
Quote
9.  Each BP has a loop thru switch - too bad it isn't 3 port.
Sorry your wrong, the BP has only a single ethercon jack, the rack/desk stations do have 2 but I've never heard of PoE daisy chaining.

Quote
7.  PoE has limited current supply.  Maybe they should recommend some switches or hubs which can support 30+ beltpacks on a string.
Noting the limitations above I'm pretty sure you would need a PoE switch port per user device (BP, desk or ...) so 30 deep belt pack strings are impossible. I'm sure this may be a deal killer for some applications.


I plan to keep my eye on them for future developments as it's an interesting system at what appeared to be a reasonable price point.

Philip
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Pete Erskine on August 14, 2012, 05:51:08 am
the BP has only a single ethercon jack, the rack/desk stations do have 2 but I've never heard of PoE daisy chaining.

This is a deal killer for me.  Needing a separate PoE port from a switch for every beltpack just won't work.  There absolutely need to be the ability to loop or split beltpacks.

The Early version of the Riedel digital beltpack (C2) was connected with Cat-5.  There was an input an an output on each BP.  This was bidirectional AES on 2 pairs but the power used the other four conductors and up to 15 BP could be on one line.
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Steve Anderson on August 14, 2012, 11:04:23 am
This is a deal killer for me.  Needing a separate PoE port from a switch for every beltpack just won't work.  There absolutely need to be the ability to loop or split beltpacks.
Hmmm... maybe in a future hardware version they actually could do it. Especially if there is enough "noise" from the right people  ;)

It can't be too expensive to put a 2 port ethernet switch in (with FPGAs it could be free from a hardware point of view anyway), and they could just have a really big-ass PoE supply to do a chain of them.

At 100 MBits I think the PoE uses the unused pairs... There may however be ethernet issues with doing this, I recall ethernet's 3-4-5 rule back in 50ohm coax days, the 4 indicating max repeater hops. Anyone know?

If they could fix this homerun issue it'd be good.

Like I said if the right people make enough noise...
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Joost van Eenbergen on August 20, 2012, 11:17:01 am
Hello

let me introduce my self first

i'm joost van eenbergen system designer of the ethernet based green-go intercom system.

if you have any questions please put them here.

to comment on the list:

1.  What they consider low latency?
    12mS (as stated before)
2.  What is the effect of poor QoS Ethernet, esp if some of the system is connected by WiFi
    Only on real busy networks it would be good to use Qos and maybe vlans.
3.  Is there a way to program it off line?  No info on site but there seems to be some talk of a laptop.
   Yes you can program the system offline and then lod it into your system.
   You can localy or remotely change the user assignment
4.  Can beltpacks be cloned?  I will reall need to know this for a 3000+ beltpack system.
    Yes, you can clone the complete setting. you can even assign the same user to multiple beltpacks, without any problem (even if both beltpacks are active)
5.  Can the setup be saved?
   Yes, each unit on the network saves the complete system settings (no computer needed to run the system)
   On the PC (or MAC) software you can also save the config or load it from a device.
6.  What is the audio BW?
   16kHz sample 16bit.
7.  PoE has limited current supply.  Maybe they should recommend some switches or hubs which can support 30+ beltpacks on a string.
  Poe Can not be daisy chained. this has been a system design choice. Compared to a partyline system this is a disadvantage,
   but compared to a matrix system it is still easier. instead of running a line for each unit, you can split the line at the very last moment using a PoE switch (even a cheap one).
8.  Can you Y the signal without a hub, like Helixnet?
  a Y-split would be a PoE switch. i have doubt that helixnet would be happy with Y-splitting concerning the bitrate of the signal (but i don't know that).
9.  Each BP has a loop thru switch - too bad it isn't 3 port.
   No loop on the beltpack
10.  Do I need to program at each BP or master station or can I do it over the net.  This id really the crux.
  You can remotely program each beltpack
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Pete Erskine on August 20, 2012, 12:23:22 pm
These are the most interesting parts of the reply for me:

You can program the system offline and then load it into your system.
You can localy or remotely change the user assignment
You can clone the complete setting. you can even assign the same user to multiple beltpacks, without any problem (even if both beltpacks are active)
Each unit on the network saves the complete system settings (no computer needed to run the system)
   On the PC (or MAC) software you can also save the config or load it from a device.
You can remotely program each beltpack


Thank you for your answers.

I have gotten a quote for the beltpack in quantities of 10 of about $860 each.
Also I understand you are about to introduce a wireless version, hopefully NOT 2.4gHz.
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Steve Anderson on August 20, 2012, 01:21:58 pm
let me introduce my self first

i'm joost van eenbergen system designer of the ethernet based green-go intercom system.
Firstly, thanks for your reply to Pete's questions, it is always good to get info straight from the designers of products. I know the board here encourages manufacturer involvement in the discussions, so it is most welcome.

Secondly, the rules of this sight say names must be full names, and I'm sure a moderator will probably ask you to fix that soon  :)

I do look forward to hearing more about the range as it progresses.

And just for your information if you didn't already know, Pete has just finished running the comms for the opening and closing ceremonies of a rather large sporting event in London  ;)
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Pete Erskine on August 20, 2012, 02:06:27 pm
Hello
let me introduce my self first
i'm joost van eenbergen system designer of the ethernet based green-go intercom system.
if you have any questions please put them here.

Can the beltpacks be anywhere on the internet?
How are devices discovered if they are on vastly different networks?
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Joost van Eenbergen on August 20, 2012, 04:47:25 pm
Hello steve

i changed my profile.
i normally use the same (vaneenbergen) call sign on any profecional forum, so people know it's me.

i've seen pete's reputation. i'm not worthy (waynes world movie :)

to pete

For the moment unit's need to be on the same network. we're not using ip, but layer2 routing.
An ip bridge is in the planing. to make connections between locations.

A lot of new things are cooking. First on list are the 4-wire and 2-wire interfaces.

joost van eenbergen
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Joost van Eenbergen on August 21, 2012, 06:58:17 am
Hello Steve


At 100 MBits I think the PoE uses the unused pairs... There may however be ethernet issues with doing this, I recall ethernet's 3-4-5 rule back in 50ohm coax days, the 4 indicating max repeater hops. Anyone know?


100Mbit can use either the Spare or Data pairs for power.
The 3-4-5 rule doesn't count anymore, because we're using switches.
We've been working with 20 switches daisychained and looped back.
A switch will introduce a delay in the signal, but that is just 24 micro seconds per switch. The intercom system is designed to don't care about strick timing and there is also no master clock in the set needed.
Just plugging in 2 beltpacks in the network and your done.

BTW the loop back with the switches we did with our ethernet switch from our sister brand ELC. It has a fast looping/backup option in there, so a network line failure will be curent in milli seconds. So ethernet is easy to make backup.

Sorry for the plugs.
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Steve Anderson on August 21, 2012, 07:04:34 am
[...] from our sister brand ELC. It has a fast looping/backup option in there, so a network line failure will be curent in milli seconds.

You mean like Spanning Tree Protocol redundancy except way faster yes? I assume that operates at Layer 2 as well?

And what are the expected timeframes for the various items in the range? You said you were working on the 2 and 4 wire interfaces, what actually is shipping or close to shipping at the moment.

Cheers,
Steve
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Joost van Eenbergen on August 21, 2012, 07:14:20 am
You mean like Spanning Tree Protocol redundancy except way faster yes? I assume that operates at Layer 2 as well?

And what are the expected timeframes for the various items in the range? You said you were working on the 2 and 4 wire interfaces, what actually is shipping or close to shipping at the moment.

Cheers,
Steve

The loop is faster than spanning tree, but needs to be setup in the switches. You can run multiple loops from a single switch.

Just a quick story why we made the system.
My background is in broadcast audio 15 years ago. Making for example digital matrixes and running 128 channels of audio on a fibre.
13 years ago i started a company inDMX controls for lighting and have grown into networks.
2 years ago a client was complaining about the f**ing extra icom cable he had to run next to it's great redundant fibre link.
So i scrabled i'll my ideas together and made a great ethernet based intercom engine.

On sale at the moment are the 2-channel beltpacks and 8-165-24-32 channel desks.
(quick note, 2-channel beltpack means it has quick acces to 2 channels. internally each unit has 32 channels, 1 program audio channel and the possibility for direct connections).

Pipeline:
2-wire , 4-wire wallpanels.
and some install units (be show at the Plasa show next month).

Rest of the pipeline:
you'll see :)
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Andrew Broughton on February 15, 2016, 05:16:23 am
I know this is an old thread, but the information here is likely still current and relevant.

I'm interested to hear if anyone has any real-world experience with this system, especially wrt the wireless system. (Range/Interference/Comparisons would be great!)
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Andrew Cox on February 15, 2016, 10:23:23 am
Hello,

We're a big GreenGo user, around 50 units at the moment ( comprising of beltpacks, loudspeaker stations, 2 wire, 4 wire, bridge interfaces ). We've done many projects with GreenGo talkback and really like it, it's incredibly flexible, sounds great, and works well. GreenGo have been very responsive with suggestions and any questions also.

The wireless kit we've had for a few weeks and like it. We've used Telex BTR for many years and we've not found anything else ( up to now ) that we're happy with ( we've tried all the Clearcom / Riedel / Telex systems ).

So comments on the wireless specifically are:

- the range is similar to BTR - we had a show last week with both Telex and GreenGo wireless and both lost signal at the same point outside the main ballroom. ( The Telex had ALP450 aerials also ).
- the audio quality is same as BTR / same as GreenGo wired intercom which is excellent.
- frequency issues - we were a little concerned that in busy 'DECT' environments that the GreenGo would struggle - but so far no issues and we've been in some crowded DECT venues with it.
- useability - the packs have up to 4 channels directly accessed by 4 buttons so very easy to use - further channels can be accessed by another button press. The menu structure follows the wired packs - so easy to use.
- each 'base' can connect to 4 packs, and packs can connect to multiple bases to 'roam' to cover larger areas - we'll be testing that functionality later this week.
- The only negative is that the buttons are black on black so difficult to see in the dark sometimes - but that is such a minor issue in relation to the massive flexibility the system offers that we're prepared to let GreenGo off for that!

I or one of my colleagues are very happy to answer any questions. So DM me or post here and I'll try my best to help.

There's more coming from GreenGo - they are a great find and it's a very good system ;-)



Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Andrew Broughton on February 15, 2016, 05:28:04 pm
Great stuff, thank you!

Have you compared it to the Radio Active system? I assume the only advantage of RA is the low latency?
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Andrew Cox on February 16, 2016, 09:52:27 am
Great stuff, thank you!

Have you compared it to the Radio Active system? I assume the only advantage of RA is the low latency?

We've not tried the RA system, we've spoken to them but at the time it wasn't available in the UK. The latency of the GreeGo is very small - I would suggest around 20-30ms, so even radio comms to wired pack there was not a noticable delay with the users standing together.
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Andrew Broughton on February 16, 2016, 12:12:10 pm
Thank you, Andrew! I haven't gotten pricing yet for the Green-Go system, but I get the impression it's cheaper than the Radio Active system, so I'm wondering what the advantage would be of the Radio Active system, since the Green-Go looks to be a quality system and very feature-rich, and also includes wired equipment in their lineup.
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 16, 2016, 12:18:49 pm
Thank you, Andrew! I haven't gotten pricing yet for the Green-Go system, but I get the impression it's cheaper than the Radio Active system, so I'm wondering what the advantage would be of the Radio Active system, since the Green-Go looks to be a quality system and very feature-rich, and also includes wired equipment in their lineup.

The wireless green-go is about $1985 per beltpack and $1985 per 4 pack antenna.

Here is the text of a response from them to me.

Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Andrew Broughton on February 16, 2016, 12:25:55 pm
Thank you Pete;

Even if the Green-Go system were used only as a Wireless Com system, it sounds like it would still be far cheaper than the RA system, or even other systems by Telex/HME/Clear-Com. Are there advantages to the other systems that make them worth the higher price?
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 16, 2016, 12:28:18 pm
Thank you Pete;

Even if the Green-Go system were used only as a Wireless Com system, it sounds like it would still be far cheaper than the RA system, or even other systems by Telex/HME/Clear-Com. Are there advantages to the other systems that make them worth the higher price?

Be aware that the GG wireless is not stand alone.  4-wire or 2-wire interfaces need to be added to interface.  The "roaming" capability may only be manual by switching antennas.  We will see when it exists.
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 16, 2016, 12:31:12 pm
Has anyone tried this new system out yet?
http://www.greengocom.com/ (http://www.greengocom.com/)
If so, thoughts or experiences?

Looks clever, no base station, no limit to users (well 3750, but who would put their hand up to work on that show) and 250 partylines... it won awards at PLASA and LDI...

Cheers
Steve

It does have several size base stations but maybe you mean no master NODE.

Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Andrew Broughton on February 16, 2016, 12:39:15 pm
Be aware that the GG wireless is not stand alone.  4-wire or 2-wire interfaces need to be added to interface.
I get that. Still seems like it beats the others in price and features by a long shot. What's the catch?
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 16, 2016, 12:41:58 pm
I get that. Still seems like it beats the others in price and features by a long shot. What's the catch?

When I get a demo I'll let you all know....
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Andrew Cox on February 16, 2016, 03:24:18 pm
Each pack can be registered to 4 bases, and the belt-pack will 'automatically connect to the antenna from which it receives the clearest signal level'. We have 2 bases and will test how this works later this week.

Be aware that the GG wireless is not stand alone.  4-wire or 2-wire interfaces need to be added to interface.  The "roaming" capability may only be manual by switching antennas.  We will see when it exists.
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Andrew Broughton on February 16, 2016, 06:09:12 pm
Peter, you had said in the past (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,156058.msg1435013.html#msg1435013) that you had issues with systems that used DECT frequencies. Andrew's experience with the Green-Go seems to indicate that he wasn't having the issues you reported. Is that something you would be able to test when you receive your demo?
Title: Re: New(-ish) comms system - GreenGo
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 16, 2016, 11:05:19 pm
Peter, you had said in the past (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,156058.msg1435013.html#msg1435013) that you had issues with systems that used DECT frequencies. Andrew's experience with the Green-Go seems to indicate that he wasn't having the issues you reported. Is that something you would be able to test when you receive your demo?

Yes, that piqued my interest.