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Title: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Fernando Lopez on March 16, 2011, 09:34:42 pm
I expect a lot of criticism but I do not have too many options

Help me choose the less worst option please

A Dj that hires me for SR has a gig for 800 kids outdoors

I know my subs cannot handle that amount but what is less worst?

2 Danley TH-118 or
8 JBL JRX118p

Neither of them will handle it properly or should I mix both?

 I also have 2 TH-minis


Thanks
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 16, 2011, 09:43:13 pm
I expect a lot of criticism but I do not have too many options

Help me choose the less worst option please

A Dj that hires me for SR has a gig for 800 kids outdoors

I know my subs cannot handle that amount but what is less worst?

2 Danley TH-118 or
8 JBL JRX118p

Neither of them will handle it properly or should I mix both?

 I also have 2 TH-minis


Thanks

Charge him enough to rent what you need OR sub-contract the job to someone who has enough rig and take a percentage for setting it up.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Reggie Kendrick on April 02, 2011, 02:01:10 pm
I expect a lot of criticism but I do not have too many options

Help me choose the less worst option please

A Dj that hires me for SR has a gig for 800 kids outdoors

I know my subs cannot handle that amount but what is less worst?

2 Danley TH-118 or
8 JBL JRX118p

Neither of them will handle it properly or should I mix both?

 I also have 2 TH-minis


Thanks
If you don't have too many options or are not able to rent, I'd break the cardinal no mixing of subs rule and do the gig.  Sure the low end will sound muddy but if your crowd is not teRRibly discerning (800 kids), you most likely will have enough loudness.  Save the profits and work on purchasing more TH-118's... sell the JRX.  That DJ that you work with already knows your equipment quality (minus the JRX).

How many and what types of tops will you be running?  What type of music will be played? 
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Brad Weber on April 02, 2011, 05:38:42 pm
2 Danley TH-118 or
8 JBL JRX118p
What do you have for amplification with the TH-118s?  And what do you have for power?  Both of those could be factors.
 
Assuming you mean the JRX118SP, the maximum output for one box is 121dB continuous at 1m with 123dB peak (half space). Four clustered per side would be an absolute total maximum of 133dB continuous and 135dB peak and perhaps a little less than that.  A single TH-118 is capable of 137dB continuous and 143dB peak at 1m and the TH-118 levels apply to the majority of the stated operating range and not just a peak level at some particular frequency.  In addition, the TH-118 has a -3dB spec of 40Hz and a -10dB limit of 28Hz versus 55Hz and 38Hz respectively for the JRX118SP.  So provided you can properly power them, the two TH-118s should be louder and have more extended response.

On the other hand, a stack of JBL subs probably looks more impressive to the kids if that matters.  And if you have the processing, with eight subs you could look at creating a directional array, which may have some benefits.
 
I would not mix the subs, the resulting physical array size, different types of boxes, etc. combined with the potential difference in output levels between the two different subs could result in minimal, if any, advantage other than providing some redundancy.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Fernando Lopez on April 02, 2011, 09:06:34 pm
If you don't have too many options or are not able to rent, I'd break the cardinal no mixing of subs rule and do the gig.  Sure the low end will sound muddy but if your crowd is not teRRibly discerning (800 kids), you most likely will have enough loudness.  Save the profits and work on purchasing more TH-118's... sell the JRX.  That DJ that you work with already knows your equipment quality (minus the JRX).

How many and what types of tops will you be running?  What type of music will be played?

The tops would be 4 ZX5s powered by a CP4000S, 2 per channel

Top 40s, latin music, house
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Fernando Lopez on April 02, 2011, 09:07:52 pm
What do you have for amplification with the TH-118s?  And what do you have for power?  Both of those could be factors.
 
Assuming you mean the JRX118SP, the maximum output for one box is 121dB continuous at 1m with 123dB peak (half space). Four clustered per side would be an absolute total maximum of 133dB continuous and 135dB peak and perhaps a little less than that.  A single TH-118 is capable of 137dB continuous and 143dB peak at 1m and the TH-118 levels apply to the majority of the stated operating range and not just a peak level at some particular frequency.  In addition, the TH-118 has a -3dB spec of 40Hz and a -10dB limit of 28Hz versus 55Hz and 38Hz respectively for the JRX118SP.  So provided you can properly power them, the two TH-118s should be louder and have more extended response.

On the other hand, a stack of JBL subs probably looks more impressive to the kids if that matters.  And if you have the processing, with eight subs you could look at creating a directional array, which may have some benefits.
 
I would not mix the subs, the resulting physical array size, different types of boxes, etc. combined with the potential difference in output levels between the two different subs could result in minimal, if any, advantage other than providing some redundancy.

Thanks for the advise

The amp would be a macrotech 9000i, One TH-118 per channel
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: john sanders on April 03, 2011, 10:03:28 am
Bring all the subs, stacking them for the look and simply use only the TH-118's. Mixing sub boxes would not be wise.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 03, 2011, 07:53:09 pm
Bring all the subs, stacking them for the look and simply use only the TH-118's. Mixing sub boxes would not be wise.
Not a bad idea-except he REALLY REALLY needs to short out the speaker input jacks of any cabinets that are not being used.

The unused cabinets could actually REDUCE the level of the working cabinets at certain freq.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Reggie Kendrick on April 04, 2011, 11:59:51 am
Bring all the subs, stacking them for the look and simply use only the TH-118's. Mixing sub boxes would not be wise.
Not a bad idea-except he REALLY REALLY needs to short out the speaker input jacks of any cabinets that are not being used.

The unused cabinets could actually REDUCE the level of the working cabinets at certain freq.
If say the 2 TH-118's were clustered and he had the unplugged JRX facade around the Danleys... would the TH-118's still excite the JRX subs thus causing phase issues or reduction of frequencies on the TH-118's?  Would placing the JRX facade a certain distance away prevent this "reduction"?  How about foregoing the JRX's and bringing the TH-Minis instead.  Still a different speaker but possibly the lesser of evils.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Pascal.Pincosy on April 04, 2011, 04:58:45 pm
I expect a lot of criticism but I do not have too many options

Help me choose the less worst option please

A Dj that hires me for SR has a gig for 800 kids outdoors

I know my subs cannot handle that amount but what is less worst?

2 Danley TH-118 or
8 JBL JRX118p

Neither of them will handle it properly or should I mix both?

 I also have 2 TH-minis


Thanks
Neither of your two options will provide adequate amounts of low end for that many people outdoors for bass-heavy genres. IMO you have 2 options:

a) stack the Danleys on one side of the stage and the JBL's on the other. Looks ugly doesn't it? But it will work.

b) do a 3 corner arrangement with the Danleys centered in front of the stage, and two equal stacks of the JBL's on each side on the BACK side of the dance floor. I have used this method a number of times with great success.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Reggie Kendrick on April 04, 2011, 09:32:12 pm
...I know my subs cannot handle that amount but what is less worst?

2 Danley TH-118 or
8 JBL JRX118p

Neither of them will handle it properly or should I mix both?

 I also have 2 TH-minis


Thanks

Wait... I just thought of something... what are you doing with ((( 8 ))) JRX subs ?!?!?  You didn't realize they were bad after purchasing the 1st one?  :o  LoL.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Fernando Lopez on April 04, 2011, 10:17:28 pm

Quote
Wait... I just thought of something... what are you doing with ((( 8 ))) JRX subs ?!?!?  You didn't realize they were bad after purchasing the 1st one?  :o  LoL.

Luckily they are not mine. The Dj owns them. We are working together on some of his gigs
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 05, 2011, 07:23:55 am
Bring all the subs, stacking them for the look and simply use only the TH-118's. Mixing sub boxes would not be wise.
Not a bad idea-except he REALLY REALLY needs to short out the speaker input jacks of any cabinets that are not being used.

The unused cabinets could actually REDUCE the level of the working cabinets at certain freq.
If say the 2 TH-118's were clustered and he had the unplugged JRX facade around the Danleys... would the TH-118's still excite the JRX subs thus causing phase issues or reduction of frequencies on the TH-118's?  Would placing the JRX facade a certain distance away prevent this "reduction"?  How about foregoing the JRX's and bringing the TH-Minis instead.  Still a different speaker but possibly the lesser of evils.
Think of an unplugged bass cabinet as a bass "trap".  Tuned to a particular freq.  Generally it is best not to have any unused cabinets around.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Brad Weber on April 05, 2011, 07:56:14 am
Neither of your two options will provide adequate amounts of low end for that many people outdoors for bass-heavy genres. IMO you have 2 options:

a) stack the Danleys on one side of the stage and the JBL's on the other. Looks ugly doesn't it? But it will work.
The theoretical peak output from the eight JRX boxes on one side would be less than the theoretical peak output of a single TH-118 on a channel of a MA-9000i, so in the scenario suggested you would seem to have to reduce the TH-118 levels to match the JRX levels, in fact reducing the level to below the potential level of a single TH-118.  That does not seem to make much sense unless you are concerned simply about the perception of having only one sub per side.
 
Another consideration may be that assuming the two EV ZX5 boxes per side are being used for greater coverage, then with two boxes on each channel of a CP4000S that looks to be around 126dB peak at 1m on axis for the mains.  Do you need that much more sub output?

b) do a 3 corner arrangement with the Danleys centered in front of the stage, and two equal stacks of the JBL's on each side on the BACK side of the dance floor. I have used this method a number of times with great success.
This brings up a good point as it is an outdoor event so there may not be a defined dance floor or listener area.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: john sanders on April 05, 2011, 10:28:09 am
Not a bad idea-except he REALLY REALLY needs to short out the speaker input jacks of any cabinets that are not being used.

The unused cabinets could actually REDUCE the level of the working cabinets at certain freq.

Ivan, It's always a learning experience when reading your posts and comments. I've been in the audio business for quite some time and thanks to this forum and pros like yourself I continue to glean valuable information and knowledge relating to the field of pro audio.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Reggie Kendrick on April 05, 2011, 10:31:38 am
Not a bad idea-except he REALLY REALLY needs to short out the speaker input jacks of any cabinets that are not being used.

The unused cabinets could actually REDUCE the level of the working cabinets at certain freq.

Ivan, It's always a learning experience when reading your posts and comments. I've been in the audio business for quite some time and thanks to this forum and pros like yourself I continue to glean valuable information and knowledge relating to the field of pro audio.
+1
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Pascal.Pincosy on April 05, 2011, 11:45:33 am
The theoretical peak output from the eight JRX boxes on one side would be less than the theoretical peak output of a single TH-118 on a channel of a MA-9000i, so in the scenario suggested you would seem to have to reduce the TH-118 levels to match the JRX levels, in fact reducing the level to below the potential level of a single TH-118.  That does not seem to make much sense unless you are concerned simply about the perception of having only one sub per side.
If I'm put in the tough spot of doing a show bigger than the gear I have available is capable of, I'm not going to be worried about niceties like even output across the audience area or fidelity. I'm going to array my system in a manner that gives me the most output possible. So there is more bass on one side than the other? At least there will be enough bass overall... The lack of output from the tops is not going to be as easy of a fix.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Brad Weber on April 06, 2011, 07:45:13 am
If I'm put in the tough spot of doing a show bigger than the gear I have available is capable of, I'm not going to be worried about niceties like even output across the audience area or fidelity. I'm going to array my system in a manner that gives me the most output possible. So there is more bass on one side than the other? At least there will be enough bass overall... The lack of output from the tops is not going to be as easy of a fix.
I guess I just don't see dragging out eight powered subs and having to address processing for two quite different mains and sub combinations for little seeming benefit.  I would tend to keep it simple and just center cluster the two TH-118s.  Less gear, less setup and probably an equal, if not better, result.

Another factor in this could be power, running both the TH-118s on the MA-9000i and the eight powered JBL JRX subs seems almost certain to require more power and more power distribution.  It might be worth verifying what is even viable with the power available.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Pascal.Pincosy on April 08, 2011, 01:59:11 pm
I guess I just don't see dragging out eight powered subs and having to address processing for two quite different mains and sub combinations for little seeming benefit.  I would tend to keep it simple and just center cluster the two TH-118s.  Less gear, less setup and probably an equal, if not better, result.
I'd be willing to bet a TH-118 that you will get more overall output from the 3-corner setup I described then you would from just a pair of TH-118's. And processing will not be as difficult as you make it out to be.
Title: Re: Outside Gig 800 kids
Post by: Josh Billings on April 08, 2011, 09:27:27 pm
If you're not interested in renting a proper amount of subs or subbing it out to somebody who can handle the gig (and taking a little off the top for setting it up) THEN what i would do is...

Set up the TH-118s in the middle and then setup 2 stacks of 4 of the JBLs on each side. Playing with the setup in the past has worked well for me with horn subs and dual 18s.

I think is spaced them roughly 6-8 feet apart

-Josh Billings