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Title: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: (Brian) Frost on June 06, 2012, 06:17:56 pm
I have a client who just finished a major renovation and has now decided that they need basic audio in their atrium.  Source will just be a music feed and a single wireless microphone.  they ideally want 4-6 ceiling cans to cover this 45ft circular room.  Being that this is in a high rise, everything has to go through conduit so Im trying to avoid tearing out all the complicated finish drywall thats there and redoing what was just done and instead utilizing the cat5e thats already run in the walls to 5 locations around the room. 

Im looking into a streamnet system with some streamnet enabled polk speakers.  Any other suggestions for powered inwalls that can be fed from cat5?

Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Scott Carneval on June 06, 2012, 07:22:59 pm
I have a client who just finished a major renovation and has now decided that they need basic audio in their atrium.  Source will just be a music feed and a single wireless microphone.  they ideally want 4-6 ceiling cans to cover this 45ft circular room.  Being that this is in a high rise, everything has to go through conduit so Im trying to avoid tearing out all the complicated finish drywall thats there and redoing what was just done and instead utilizing the cat5e thats already run in the walls to 5 locations around the room. 

Im looking into a streamnet system with some streamnet enabled polk speakers.  Any other suggestions for powered inwalls that can be fed from cat5?

ANY powered speaker (or power amplifier) can be fed from cat 5. Just solder xlr ends to the cat 5 cable. Use a pair for +/- and another pair for the shield
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Brad Weber on June 06, 2012, 10:30:04 pm
I have a client who just finished a major renovation and has now decided that they need basic audio in their atrium.  Source will just be a music feed and a single wireless microphone.  they ideally want 4-6 ceiling cans to cover this 45ft circular room.  Being that this is in a high rise, everything has to go through conduit so Im trying to avoid tearing out all the complicated finish drywall thats there and redoing what was just done and instead utilizing the cat5e thats already run in the walls to 5 locations around the room. 

Im looking into a streamnet system with some streamnet enabled polk speakers.  Any other suggestions for powered inwalls that can be fed from cat5?
Are you thinking their being powered over the CAT as well as it transmitting audio?
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: (Brian) Frost on June 07, 2012, 12:11:22 pm
Well theres power right next to the cat 5 run so I dont think I need that to happen.  Ive used baluns on the ends of cat5 to turn it into rca's but I never thought of just soldering on xlr ends.

Suggestions for decent powered inwall speakers (will be used with a wireless microphone not just background music)

Brian

Are you thinking their being powered over the CAT as well as it transmitting audio?
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Scott Carneval on June 07, 2012, 04:20:36 pm
I don't know of any powered in-wall speakers, but even if you could find one it would be difficult to comply with code.  You can't run an edison plug within a confined space and the speaker would have to have a junction box built into the back of it if you were to terminate it within the wall. 

Are you sure you're not looking for a powered speaker you can simply mount on the wall?
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: (Brian) Frost on June 07, 2012, 05:08:33 pm
I was thinking that originally but then found these polks
http://www.polkaudio.com/customaudio/lci/index.php?s=lc265i-ip

they are inwall powered and connect via ethernet and each have an ip which is controllable from software via that ethernet or from a front panel usb. 

Being that they are actually home audio/automation speakers, I dont know if they would be good enough for my use, and they are pricey, but lots less expensive than redoing the drywall and running more conduit in this particular installation.

Frost

I don't know of any powered in-wall speakers, but even if you could find one it would be difficult to comply with code.  You can't run an edison plug within a confined space and the speaker would have to have a junction box built into the back of it if you were to terminate it within the wall. 

Are you sure you're not looking for a powered speaker you can simply mount on the wall?
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on June 07, 2012, 05:28:04 pm
Why do you want powered and why on earth IP??
 
Simply use your choice of 70v ceiling cans, (like http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=34&MId=2 (http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=34&MId=2)) double up the pairs in that CAT5 into one pair, get yourself an amp for the other end and Bobs your uncle.
 
Why are you making this soooo complicated? This does not have to be in conduit.
 
-Hal
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: (Brian) Frost on June 07, 2012, 05:35:58 pm
Because the walls are only 2x4 thick and I find 70v speakers to generally sound terrible, but Ill think about it.  I cant get to the ceiling without tons of extra drywall work because the ceiling is very complicated modern art that Ive been quoted $20k to redo the drywall again, and its only 1 year old. 

Thank you for your ideas so far.  Ill keep thinking this out. 

Brian

Why do you want powered and why on earth IP??
 
Simply use your choice of 70v ceiling cans, (like http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=34&MId=2 (http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=34&MId=2)) double up the pairs in that CAT5 into one pair, get yourself an amp for the other end and Bobs your uncle.
 
Why are you making this soooo complicated? This does not have to be in conduit.
 
-Hal
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Scott Carneval on June 07, 2012, 05:40:02 pm
I was thinking that originally but then found these polks
http://www.polkaudio.com/customaudio/lci/index.php?s=lc265i-ip

they are inwall powered and connect via ethernet and each have an ip which is controllable from software via that ethernet or from a front panel usb. 

Being that they are actually home audio/automation speakers, I dont know if they would be good enough for my use, and they are pricey, but lots less expensive than redoing the drywall and running more conduit in this particular installation.

Frost


Taken from the link you provided:

■Powered by 48V DC local power supply (not included with product)

Required SPS-I Power Supply (not included)
A single SPS-I Power Supply can power up to one pair of LC265i-IP speakers or two pair of LC80i-IP speakers. A NetStreams power supply can drive the LC80i-IP. Approximate USA Suggested Retail Price $700.

$2900 per pair plus $700 for the power supply?  You mentioned there is power run to the speaker locations along with Cat-5, correct?  What about a powered speaker mounted to the wall?  Are asthetics the issue?  You would be surprised at the sound quality you can get out of a 70v system if you put an EQ in line.
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: (Brian) Frost on June 07, 2012, 05:52:34 pm
Yes, cosmetics are crucial to this client and I have to stand behind how it sounds.  My expertise is in larger scale sound systems and Ive done plenty of churches and school auditoriums.  Ive never heard a 70v system I loved the sound of, but Im open minded.  The room is very modern and has a lot of levels of complicated drywall with recessed accent lighting, so I have to keep this low visibility and ideally, destroy as little drywall as possible.  Building codes is everything has to be in conduit, so Ive been thinking of using the never utilized cat5 runs that go around the room.  I didnt even think of a 70v system, as they arent my preference, but knowing I can use the cat5 to run a 70v system makes it more likely.  there is budget to do this right, and make it look good, but I dont believe there is desire to live through or pay for the drywall that would need to be redone if i put 6 ceiling cans in place as I would think would work fine.  So Im thinking 5 inwall speakers around the circular room would look good and sound fine for the ceo to address the employees. 

Any 70v speaker systems you like?  I can easily add a driverack or similar to eq and limit the system.

thanks for the ideas so far.

Brian


Taken from the link you provided:

■Powered by 48V DC local power supply (not included with product)

Required SPS-I Power Supply (not included)
A single SPS-I Power Supply can power up to one pair of LC265i-IP speakers or two pair of LC80i-IP speakers. A NetStreams power supply can drive the LC80i-IP. Approximate USA Suggested Retail Price $700.

$2900 per pair plus $700 for the power supply?  You mentioned there is power run to the speaker locations along with Cat-5, correct?  What about a powered speaker mounted to the wall?  Are asthetics the issue?  You would be surprised at the sound quality you can get out of a 70v system if you put an EQ in line.
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Scott Carneval on June 07, 2012, 06:12:42 pm
Yes, cosmetics are crucial to this client and I have to stand behind how it sounds.  My expertise is in larger scale sound systems and Ive done plenty of churches and school auditoriums.  Ive never heard a 70v system I loved the sound of, but Im open minded.  The room is very modern and has a lot of levels of complicated drywall with recessed accent lighting, so I have to keep this low visibility and ideally, destroy as little drywall as possible.  Building codes is everything has to be in conduit, so Ive been thinking of using the never utilized cat5 runs that go around the room.  I didnt even think of a 70v system, as they arent my preference, but knowing I can use the cat5 to run a 70v system makes it more likely.  there is budget to do this right, and make it look good, but I dont believe there is desire to live through or pay for the drywall that would need to be redone if i put 6 ceiling cans in place as I would think would work fine.  So Im thinking 5 inwall speakers around the circular room would look good and sound fine for the ceo to address the employees. 

Any 70v speaker systems you like?  I can easily add a driverack or similar to eq and limit the system.

thanks for the ideas so far.

Brian

I do mostly dance clubs, so I understand where you're coming from regarding sound quality.  The problem I usually come across with 70v systems is most people design them for background music, with the speakers tapped at 7.5 watts, 15 watts, etc.  You're not going to get much out of them until you hit them with 50 or 100 watts a piece.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=260&MId=2

These JBL in-wall speakers have a 50 watt tap built in, or if that's not enough you could get the transformerless and get a custom tap.  Or you could possibly run them at 8ohm, but I'm not sure how the cat5 would like that.  If the cat5 is ran thru conduit you might be able to use the existing cat5 as a pull string and pull some 14/2 in it's place.
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on June 07, 2012, 06:58:29 pm
Quote
I cant get to the ceiling without tons of extra drywall work

So how do you plan on installing those Polks?
 
That JBL was just an example, you can go up from there, but from what you described you are talking about voice reinforcement and background music. Not very demanding.
 
Quote
I find 70v speakers to generally sound terrible

Quote
You would be surprised at the sound quality you can get out of a 70v system if you put an EQ in line.

+1
 
You just haven't heard one done right or at least designed for something other tha PA.
 
-Hal
 
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on June 07, 2012, 07:04:19 pm
I do mostly dance clubs, so I understand where you're coming from regarding sound quality.  The problem I usually come across with 70v systems is most people design them for background music, with the speakers tapped at 7.5 watts, 15 watts, etc.  You're not going to get much out of them until you hit them with 50 or 100 watts a piece.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=260&MId=2 (http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=260&MId=2)

These JBL in-wall speakers have a 50 watt tap built in, or if that's not enough you could get the transformerless and get a custom tap.  Or you could possibly run them at 8ohm, but I'm not sure how the cat5 would like that.  If the cat5 is ran thru conduit you might be able to use the existing cat5 as a pull string and pull some 14/2 in it's place.

I think you need to define what the purpose of this system will be. I can't see where you would need 50 watts per speaker for something like this.

-Hal
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Brad Weber on June 07, 2012, 07:10:43 pm
I do mostly dance clubs, so I understand where you're coming from regarding sound quality.  The problem I usually come across with 70v systems is most people design them for background music, with the speakers tapped at 7.5 watts, 15 watts, etc.  You're not going to get much out of them until you hit them with 50 or 100 watts a piece.
I don't believe it is the tap value, it is the quality of the transformers.  A high quality, full range transformer is usually fairly large and expensive.
 
Also keep in mind that this is apparently basic audio that is an afterthought in a 45' diameter circular space that seems to have a lot of reflective surfaces.  Good audio quality and/or good intelligbility may be somewhat wishful thinking.
 
Brian, did you realize that the warranty for those Polk speakers seems to specifically excludes commercial use?
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on June 07, 2012, 07:16:09 pm
I do mostly dance clubs, so I understand where you're coming from regarding sound quality.  The problem I usually come across with 70v systems is most people design them for background music, with the speakers tapped at 7.5 watts, 15 watts, etc.  You're not going to get much out of them until you hit them with 50 or 100 watts a piece.

It just doesn't work that way. As Brad says frequency response is a function of transformer quality and lots of iron. Nothing to do with what it's tapped at.
 
-Hal
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 07, 2012, 07:37:23 pm
I dont know if they would be good enough for my use, and they are pricey, but lots less expensive than redoing the drywall and running more conduit in this particular installation.

Frost
Maybe I missed it, but since you already have conduit in place (or so it seems), then why not just run regular speaker wire and put some real speakers in. 

When you start to add local pwoer supplies, it get real messy real quick.

Why do the speakers need to be addressable?  I have never run into a situation in which I can think of where that would provide any advantage.  But there is a lot of work that I don't do.
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Charlie Zureki on June 07, 2012, 08:28:47 pm
Maybe I missed it, but since you already have conduit in place (or so it seems), then why not just run regular speaker wire and put some real speakers in. 

When you start to add local pwoer supplies, it get real messy real quick.

Why do the speakers need to be addressable?  I have never run into a situation in which I can think of where that would provide any advantage. 

  +1

  If it's a commerical building then, if worst case scenario, an installer may have to make some small (and easily repaired) holes in the drywall. ( think durabond) The studs should be metal in a new project in a commercial building so, there should be no need for drilling or cutting holes in the studs.

 This install and clean up should take 2 guys, about 2 days,  if all tools and supplies are available on site.    70v speakers can get pretty loud, but, they probably are not suitable for a live music group unless an acoustic group, back ground music and announcements could be plenty loud in a 70v system.   By using the conduit you should be able to wire any 70 volt or low impedance speakers.

  If you are not certain you can do this install, hand it off to someone that has plenty of experience, with the provision you are the second installer...
  Hammer
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: Lee Douglas on June 07, 2012, 08:58:56 pm
  If it's a commerical building then, if worst case scenario, an installer may have to make some small (and easily repaired) holes in the drywall. ( think durabond) The studs should be metal in a new project in a commercial building so, there should be no need for drilling or cutting holes in the studs.

Just a thought on this one: You would still need plastic grommets where the wire goes through the metal stud otherwise you've got the weight of the wire resting on a potentially sharp edge.  Not up to national code.

Added:  Another thought that occurred to me; although I know nothing about this space, putting speakers in the only airspace that separates the room their intended for, from the rooms around it is going to make it difficult to keep the sound in that room.  I was thinking from somewhere in this thread that it was to be used for corporate addresses, which could mean some confidential information may come into play.  Even with sound masking, inwall speakers are going to make this isolation more difficult.  FWIW.
Title: Re: Powered In-wall speakers fed from ethernet run
Post by: (Brian) Frost on June 07, 2012, 09:29:17 pm
The conduit is too small and full of cat5 to pull any real wire through. 

There are building electricians who are required to do all of the additional conduit run from their current height of 12 inches to the height of 6-7ft which will look and sound ok.  This particular building requires all high and low voltage to be in conduit. 

Im friends with the owners of the company so they want me to spec it and probably install it.  That being said, if I dont think I have a worthwhile design, I wont be installing anything and will pass it on to another company who does more of this type of install. 

While brainstorming  the speaker options i saw the polks and although not the correct speaker for the job, did provide an interesting design option that I was pursuing further.  Its proven a dead end, and for good reason.

The CEO hates that ceiling speakers generally sound terrible and distort in most conference rooms so he wanted better even tho this will be used for about an hour a month. 

Here are the design goals:
Provide clear dialog that doesnt distort in a 40x40 modern but acoustically treated roomm for 100 people.  I cannot get wire into the ceiling.  There are already runs of cat 5 around the room which homerun to a closet that houses a second rooms av gear but has plenty of room for me. 

Right now, Im looking into the best sounding low profile or inwall 70v speakers I can find. 

Thanks for the help
Brian

  +1

  If it's a commerical building then, if worst case scenario, an installer may have to make some small (and easily repaired) holes in the drywall. ( think durabond) The studs should be metal in a new project in a commercial building so, there should be no need for drilling or cutting holes in the studs.

 This install and clean up should take 2 guys, about 2 days,  if all tools and supplies are available on site.    70v speakers can get pretty loud, but, they probably are not suitable for a live music group unless an acoustic group, back ground music and announcements could be plenty loud in a 70v system.   By using the conduit you should be able to wire any 70 volt or low impedance speakers.

  If you are not certain you can do this install, hand it off to someone that has plenty of experience, with the provision you are the second installer...
  Hammer