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Title: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 19, 2012, 10:20:44 am
We're going to see a LOT of these. 
Mackie - 16 channel - 6 aux - iPad works wirelessly - mixer/docking station thing

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/namm-2012-mackie-launches-dl1608-525318

(http://cdn.mos.musicradar.com/images/Product%20News/Tech/Jan12/Mackie-DL1608-660-80.jpg)
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Mike Christy on January 19, 2012, 10:56:19 am
We're going to see a LOT of these. 

Right off the bat... "Tune the room from anywhere" ... a bullet item too...

Doesnt matter, unless someone like us is driving it Steve, those 5999 bar bands mixing from stage will still sound like horse pucky.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Robert Piascik on January 19, 2012, 11:16:13 am
I think I need several of these right now. When can you buy them?
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on January 19, 2012, 11:34:44 am
We're going to see a LOT of these. 
Mackie - 16 channel - 6 aux - iPad works wirelessly - mixer/docking station thing

I don;t see these being really big for clubs so much as I see these being used for breakout rooms and smaller corporate events.  Looks like they could be really handy for those applications.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Dan Richardson on January 19, 2012, 02:20:27 pm
16 preamps in a thing that size and multiple ipad control.
Sounds like a good deal for self-controlled monitor mixes.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 19, 2012, 02:47:57 pm
It appears that the price wars and small format digital consoles are now a reality.

For what it's worth, and this leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth, if they can hold the failure rate down, Behringer will soon release a winner at least as far as capabilities are concerned.

$2500.00 list price, which is less than I paid for my APB Pro House.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X32.aspx



Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chuck Simon on January 19, 2012, 03:03:20 pm
It's hard to tell from the picture but is the Mackie a docking station for the I Pad, or is that a Mackie control surface we are seeing?
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 19, 2012, 03:06:58 pm
It's hard to tell from the picture but is the Mackie a docking station for the I Pad, or is that a Mackie control surface we are seeing?

Ipad goes in and docks, and then runs the mixer.
You can also remove the Ipad and mix wirelessly with it.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 19, 2012, 03:08:38 pm
Here's another pic:

(http://www.gearjunkies.com/view_image.php?id=14367)
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 19, 2012, 03:10:15 pm
It's hard to tell from the picture but is the Mackie a docking station for the I Pad, or is that a Mackie control surface we are seeing?

Looks like an Ipad dock to me. Which is why we are seeing (and are going to see more of) this type of mixer. The digital engine part is done via the iPad. There are a bazillion people who can code apps for the iPad. That just leaves a hardware interface that is pretty easy to do for guys like mackie and berhinger. Congratulations. You just made a digital console.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 19, 2012, 03:18:04 pm
Looks like an Ipad dock to me. Which is why we are seeing (and are going to see more of) this type of mixer. The digital engine part is done via the iPad. There are a bazillion people who can code apps for the iPad. That just leaves a hardware interface that is pretty easy to do for guys like mackie and berhinger. Congratulations. You just made a digital console.

Other ipad stuff

http://www.musicradar.com/gallery/news/dj/namm-2012-numark-idj-pro-ipad-mixing-controller-525337/1

http://www.musicradar.com/news/drums/namm-2012-alesis-dm-dock-drum-module-for-ipad-525357

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/namm-2012-new-ipad-daw-with-48-tracks-and-vst-plug-in-support-524905
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 19, 2012, 03:21:49 pm
We're going to see a LOT of these. 
Mackie - 16 channel - 6 aux - iPad works wirelessly - mixer/docking station thing

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/namm-2012-mackie-launches-dl1608-525318

(http://cdn.mos.musicradar.com/images/Product%20News/Tech/Jan12/Mackie-DL1608-660-80.jpg)


But can you really do a "real professional mixing job" from one of those? Or is it just for little tech kids to say, "Wow, look at my new toy."
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chuck Simon on January 19, 2012, 03:33:44 pm
Quote
But can you really do a "real professional mixing job" from one of those?

Why not?  I think it's just a question of getting used to the interface.  I know I can handle the majority of my jobs with 16 channels, and I'll bet it doesn't take long for Mackie or someone to expand the number of channels on that thing.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Jay Barracato on January 19, 2012, 04:44:10 pm
Why not?  I think it's just a question of getting used to the interface.  I know I can handle the majority of my jobs with 16 channels, and I'll bet it doesn't take long for Mackie or someone to expand the number of channels on that thing.

Faders are the one control I absolutely do not want to be virtual. Put everything else on the computer surface but leave me my fader band.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Stu McDoniel on January 19, 2012, 04:53:46 pm
Other ipad stuff

http://www.musicradar.com/gallery/news/dj/namm-2012-numark-idj-pro-ipad-mixing-controller-525337/1

http://www.musicradar.com/news/drums/namm-2012-alesis-dm-dock-drum-module-for-ipad-525357

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/namm-2012-new-ipad-daw-with-48-tracks-and-vst-plug-in-support-524905
That IPAD app rocks!  I heard the Ipad 2 is gonna drop to 299.00 when the Ipad 3 is released
How much for that Mackie unit? 
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 19, 2012, 05:01:20 pm
Why not?  I think it's just a question of getting used to the interface.  I know I can handle the majority of my jobs with 16 channels, and I'll bet it doesn't take long for Mackie or someone to expand the number of channels on that thing.


I can't say...I've never used an ipad to mix with. That's why I'm asking.

I can see the advantage of being able to walk around, make minor adjustments and hear what it's like in different parts of the room. But can you really be "on top" of what's going on with your mix without having the main console in front of you? I can see some guitar solos getting missed if you depend on an ipad too much.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Mike Christy on January 19, 2012, 05:55:00 pm
Faders are the one control I absolutely do not want to be virtual. Put everything else on the computer surface but leave me my fader band.

Yup, agree, one network hiccup, extended latency, overshoot of a gain, a wrong move with the stylus, or a mass of bodies walking in between you and the "base station" and disaster.

My experience shows mixing ( level adjustments ) are OK on a tablet, but EQ, or other fine adjustments need either a real knob, or an arrow ( up/down) control from a physical keyboard ( via Studiomanager )

Mike
 
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chuck Simon on January 19, 2012, 06:44:01 pm
Faders are the one control I absolutely do not want to be virtual. Put everything else on the computer surface but leave me my fader band.

And that is the biggest factor for me too.  I enjoy sliding faders and I think I would miss that, but you know, some day people will be joking about the "good old days" when people actually, physically slid mechicanical faders up and down to control digital signals.

Really, it's amazing how quickly one can adapt to  maneuvering around on a iPhone - I don't see why all aspects of a live show couldn't be controlled by one(or several) iPads.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chris Carpenter on January 20, 2012, 02:49:41 am
(http://www.kosherific.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/ipad-cracked-screen.png)

Sorry guys, show's off... I dropped the mixer.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chuck Simon on January 20, 2012, 07:43:39 am
Quote
Sorry guys, show's off... I dropped the mixer.

If you base your choice of a mixer on how well it will hold up to being dropped, it's going to limit your choices severley!
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Kemper Watson on January 20, 2012, 07:47:05 am
If you base your choice of a mixer on how well it will hold up to being dropped, it's going to limit your choices severly!

Absolutely
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: David Morison on January 20, 2012, 07:59:10 am
If you base your choice of a mixer on how well it will hold up to being likely it is to be dropped, it's going to limit your choices severly lead to sensible business decisions

Fixed.

Even a 01V in a rack controlled by an iPad is still there to mix on if the remote goes down for any reason - not possible with this system, so relevant for many users who value the ability to finish the gig.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Don Gspann on January 20, 2012, 08:27:59 am
Fixed.

Even a 01V in a rack controlled by an iPad is still there to mix on if the remote goes down for any reason - not possible with this system, so relevant for many users who value the ability to finish the gig.

Yeah, but he can afford 5 backup units!
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chuck Simon on January 20, 2012, 08:33:34 am
Thank you David for "fixing" my statement.

An iPad is about $500.00.  If you are prone to dropping things, it's easy enough to carry a back-up.

Let's at least be honest in our objections.  It will be difficult for many, including me, to make the change to a new type of interface away from rows of faders, and anyone who is not comfortable with that still has conventional choices.  Those that are willing to accept a new way of doing things are going to see many advantages in functionality and cost savings.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Brad Weber on January 20, 2012, 08:46:21 am
And that is the biggest factor for me too.  I enjoy sliding faders and I think I would miss that, but you know, some day people will be joking about the "good old days" when people actually, physically slid mechicanical faders up and down to control digital signals.

Really, it's amazing how quickly one can adapt to  maneuvering around on a iPhone - I don't see why all aspects of a live show couldn't be controlled by one(or several) iPads.
It probably will get there but at what I see as a great cost as a touchscreen mixer interface replaces much of the tactile interaction of a traditional mixer with visual interaction.  They also often alter the visual aspect by being limited to what the screen can effectively produce.  You know the pan is centered without looking when you hit the center detent, oops don't have that.  You know the fader is all they way down when it stops or that the aux send is all they way down just by feel, uhhh, no.  You can see a clip light or mute or that the signal is too hot from 20' away, probably not.  As a result, I find myself spending too much time with my head down looking at the screen rather than looking at the stage.

I also had a very interesting experience during a Venue demo where one of the more experienced people in attendance really struggled.  Turns out he was blue-green color blind and had serious trouble seeing much of the labeling and information on the console and LCD screen.  For someone like that it is not a matter of adapting to the interface, it is a matter of it being unusable for someone who is otherwise is quite capable.  That experience changed my perspective of many touchscreen and LCD based mixers.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Dave Dermont on January 20, 2012, 08:54:37 am
Yeah, but can I get an FX return on an input channel?

My guess is is does not sound like a Gamble DCX, but I bet is sounds better than anyone would be willing to admit out loud for fear of losing their Golden Eared Pro Audio Association membership card.

Wait... the worst thing you can say about it is "What if I drop it?".

Really?
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Dave Dermont on January 20, 2012, 08:58:51 am
It appears that the price wars and small format digital consoles are now a reality.

For what it's worth, and this leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth, if they can hold the failure rate down, Behringer will soon release a winner at least as far as capabilities are concerned.

$2500.00 list price, which is less than I paid for my APB Pro House.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X32.aspx

Bob,

$2,500.00 for the Behringer or the Mackie?

I assume for the Behringer.

How much for the Mackie?
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on January 20, 2012, 09:07:39 am
I would also be worried if I had to go to the bathroom during a break and found that the iPad was stolen and the show is over. They can't easily walk out with my console.

If this "holder" is sized for this year's version, what happens when the next one is either thinner or thicker? Can't tell much from the pictures because I am getting old so not sure how they are attaching it.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chuck Simon on January 20, 2012, 09:18:52 am
So we should have gear that is big and awkward enough to prevent theft?

Take your iPad to the restroom with you if it really is a problem!
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 20, 2012, 09:30:43 am
I couldn't find a price for the Mackie Dave so I called them and the response was " No pricing has been announced." I would expect the chassis/interface, and that's all that it is, to be priced around $500 or less.

The $2500 is for the Behringer which at first glance I would buy before I bought an O1V, IF I could get around the stigma associated with the name and possible high failure rate. Overall though it's a very nice looking and full featured 32 channel board with a good layout.

As for mixing on an Ipad I couldn't do that, and my biggest objection is the inability to feel the controls under my hands as I watch the stage. The expression "fat fingered" comes into play here in a big way. As an interface used to control a board while ringing out the venue, or to solve problems from a remote location away from the desk during the show, is a feature I highly endorse. To me life would be perfect if I could have my APB as is, but with a computer interface that has nothing to do with the sound of those wonderful channel strips. Maybe some day those two worlds will meet. Until then though I wonder if I could sell enough of the crap I have in my shop to justify something like the Behringer, or maybe even the Behringer to use in the basement studio. I'll wait and see.

Bob "Old and analog" Leonard
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on January 20, 2012, 10:10:02 am
So we should have gear that is big and awkward enough to prevent theft?

Take your iPad to the restroom with you if it really is a problem!

Actually, yes.  I don't know where you work, but here I would never leave it visible.  Gone in minutes. I don't carry an iPhone, iPad, or iPod for the same reasons.  Everything is racked, large(r) and screwed in.  Yes, you can steal it, but not while I walk away for 3 minutes.  Even the laptops are secured. I lock every rack drawer even while I am in the clubs working.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 20, 2012, 10:18:44 am
I couldn't find a price for the Mackie Dave so I called them and the response was " No pricing has been announced." I would expect the chassis/interface, and that's all that it is, to be priced around $500 or less.

The $2500 is for the Behringer which at first glance I would buy before I bought an O1V, IF I could get around the stigma associated with the name and possible high failure rate. Overall though it's a very nice looking and full featured 32 channel board with a good layout.

As for mixing on an Ipad I couldn't do that, and my biggest objection is the inability to feel the controls under my hands as I watch the stage. The expression "fat fingered" comes into play here in a big way. As an interface used to control a board while ringing out the venue, or to solve problems from a remote location away from the desk during the show, is a feature I highly endorse. To me life would be perfect if I could have my APB as is, but with a computer interface that has nothing to do with the sound of those wonderful channel strips. Maybe some day those two worlds will meet. Until then though I wonder if I could sell enough of the crap I have in my shop to justify something like the Behringer, or maybe even the Behringer to use in the basement studio. I'll wait and see.

Bob "Old and analog" Leonard

The Behringher looks like they worked from the same "want" list as the people from Allen and Heath did on the GLD.  We'll see how they work (and for how long!)

Comments on other posts:
Theft - Mackie says they included a very sturdy locking system for anti theft so people won't rip off the Ipad.  (they supposedly work with up to 10 Ipads, buy spares!)

breakage: They work with up to 10 Ipads.  Best to have 2 if you're heading out in the audience to dance with it.

Faders - I don't see this board as a "best choice"  I see it as a solution for gigs where you can not set up a FOH, or for bands that want to let someone mix who really isn't experienced and may or may not be there all night.  They can go grab it and take it back.  No snake, no FOH footprint.  Mixing on a pad is not the easiest thing to do well, but it's doable.  My guess is people from the phone centric generation who have never mixed before (band wives/girlfriends/etc) will understand Ipad mixing faster than they would mixing on a board, because it's a surface they feel comfortable on.

From what I can see, I want one for a backup/2nd board board.  The LS9 is staying (until I can get a GLD anyway!)
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 20, 2012, 10:19:55 am
So we should have gear that is big and awkward enough to prevent theft?

Take your iPad to the restroom with you if it really is a problem!

Just don't drop it in the toilet. Can you mix with one hand and **** with the other? :o

I agree with Brad that you will find yourself buried in the ipad and never able look at the band.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Brad Weber on January 20, 2012, 10:55:04 am
So we should have gear that is big and awkward enough to prevent theft?
No, just big enough to provide ready access to useful controls.

Take your iPad to the restroom with you if it really is a problem!
"Excuse me Mr. BE, but I drank too much beer so you'll have to stop mixing for a few minutes."
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 20, 2012, 11:21:25 am
I couldn't find a price for the Mackie Dave so I called them and the response was " No pricing has been announced." I would expect the chassis/interface, and that's all that it is, to be priced around $500 or less.

It's gotta be more than that. It has 16 A to D converters and at least 6 D to A's. Mackie's own Onyx firewire interface is 500 bucks and it has 8 A/D and 6 D/A converters iirc.

Now that I think about it more, there has to be a processing engine inside the chassis. there's no way you could take the ipad wireless while streaming 22+ channels of audio to be processed in the tablet over wifi. Plus, how would it handle multiple ipads. The ipad is a control interface only, and the chassis has the mix engine. Which also means, that if you lose connectivity with the ipad the desk should keep operating.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chris Carpenter on January 20, 2012, 11:58:01 am
Joking aside, this is a solution I have been waiting for. I think my generation will embrace technology like this wholeheartedly. The mobility obviously has trade-offs that the some old timers won't like, but for people learning to mix initially on this will likely adapt just fine. Compatibility, fragility, and tactility will all be issues to work with/work around, but the concept is a good candidate for the future of mixing.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chuck Simon on January 20, 2012, 12:02:47 pm
Joking aside, this is a solution I have been waiting for. I think my generation will embrace technology like this wholeheartedly. The mobility obviously has trade-offs that the some old timers won't like, but for people learning to mix initially on this will likely adapt just fine. Compatibility, fragility, and tactility will all be issues to work with/work around, but the concept is a good candidate for the future of mixing.

I agree.  I will miss the tactility, but the advantages make it worthwhile to me.  If the price is right, I'm getting one!
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Mike Christy on January 20, 2012, 12:17:44 pm
Joking aside, this is a solution I have been waiting for. I think my generation will embrace technology like this wholeheartedly. The mobility obviously has trade-offs that the some old timers won't like, but for people learning to mix initially on this will likely adapt just fine. Compatibility, fragility, and tactility will all be issues to work with/work around, but the concept is a good candidate for the future of mixing.

Ahh hum, my generation fully embrasses this technology (we use it now with yamaha products and wifi tablets - it is an old concept - it is the present not the future) but I digress, there is only so much you can (gracefully and quickly) tweak and dial in on a tablet, you will see, wait til you have 5khz feedback you cant kill...

Mike
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Dave Scarlett on January 20, 2012, 12:31:42 pm
And there's this idea:

http://www.behringer.com/news/behringer-introduces-revolutionary-ipad-mixers-xenyx-ix3242usb-ix2442usb-and-ix1642usb/
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Brad Weber on January 20, 2012, 12:39:39 pm
Joking aside, this is a solution I have been waiting for. I think my generation will embrace technology like this wholeheartedly. The mobility obviously has trade-offs that the some old timers won't like, but for people learning to mix initially on this will likely adapt just fine. Compatibility, fragility, and tactility will all be issues to work with/work around, but the concept is a good candidate for the future of mixing.
And I believe that is the problem as many 'old timers' see it, when it makes sense to stop trading off compatibility, reliability, functionality and so on for mobility, convenience and cool factor.  I think about how many analog club mixers I have encountered that had bad channels, knobs missing, meters out and so on but they still worked enough to get by and I'll be interested to see how many of these new mixers are still in use in five or ten years.  However, I think at least part of the intent from the manufacturers' side is to create products that will be, or will need to be, replaced or updated every few years, thus creating a larger market.

Last night we were watching a show on ancient temples and cities and the associated construction techniques.  The talking heads were noting how the construction in these thousands of years old structures can barely be duplicated with modern tools and technology and surmised that since we couldn't do it now then the ancients obviously had outside help with technology equal to or beyond our current technology.  To me that is rather arrogant and overlooks the possibility that what really happened is technology causing us to lose techniques and skills that previously existed.  Just imagine years from now people associating a quality mix created on an analog console with a capability beyond that they understand and thus representing some kind of ancient magic or superhuman capability.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Jamin Lynch on January 20, 2012, 01:30:24 pm
Joking aside, this is a solution I have been waiting for. I think my generation will embrace technology like this wholeheartedly. The mobility obviously has trade-offs that the some old timers won't like, but for people learning to mix initially on this will likely adapt just fine. Compatibility, fragility, and tactility will all be issues to work with/work around, but the concept is a good candidate for the future of mixing.

Us old timers have been around long enough to know a good think when we see it....and a not so good thing.

They say "You can't teach and old dog new tricks". Maybe that's because he already knows all the tricks.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Bryan Mac Berntsen on January 20, 2012, 04:00:09 pm
Dont know if anyone else mentioned price, but Mackie's facebook page says they will sell for $999.00.....  Sounds very reasonable if they perform as advertised!!!  Plusssss this will give me excuse to buy ipad!!
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Randall Hyde on January 20, 2012, 04:03:09 pm
Joking aside, this is a solution I have been waiting for. I think my generation will embrace technology like this wholeheartedly. The mobility obviously has trade-offs that the some old timers won't like, but for people learning to mix initially on this will likely adapt just fine. Compatibility, fragility, and tactility will all be issues to work with/work around, but the concept is a good candidate for the future of mixing.

I've been mixing on Software Audio Console (SAC) for a little over a year now. I've tried *really* hard to get into the virtual mixing mode of operation. Worked on a tablet computer (HP Touchsmart) and with mouse. I'm sorry, but if you need to make fast changes to audio while watching the band members (not a video screen), there is no way anyone will ever be able to convince me that virtual mixing is the "wave of the future." I'm sure some people will grow up on it and not realize what they are missing, but...

That said, I'd probably jump all over something like this little Mackie. It's inappropriate for many of the  "combat audio" gigs I do (festivals with lots of bands and no sound checks), but for a small band with limited requirements and not a whole lot of "during show" mixing, it will probably suffice.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 20, 2012, 05:50:02 pm
I've been mixing on Software Audio Console (SAC) for a little over a year now. I've tried *really* hard to get into the virtual mixing mode of operation. Worked on a tablet computer (HP Touchsmart) and with mouse. I'm sorry, but if you need to make fast changes to audio while watching the band members (not a video screen), there is no way anyone will ever be able to convince me that virtual mixing is the "wave of the future." I'm sure some people will grow up on it and not realize what they are missing, but...

That said, I'd probably jump all over something like this little Mackie. It's inappropriate for many of the  "combat audio" gigs I do (festivals with lots of bands and no sound checks), but for a small band with limited requirements and not a whole lot of "during show" mixing, it will probably suffice.
Cheers,
Randy Hyde

I see a divergence of consoles here. There will be consoles that highlight small footprint, wireless connectivity, and maximum mobility over knobs and faders. These little consoles will lose the snake as well, relying on wifi to get to FOH.

The big console surface with a knob for every function and a bunch of faders will go higher-end. It will be a luxury item for the tours and festivals that need or want to ride actual faders.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: kristianjohnsen on January 20, 2012, 06:18:25 pm
Hello.

I have some random thoughts and comments on some of the new digital boards discussed here, in no particular order:

Mackie digital mixer with Ipad dock:

http://www.mackie.com/products/dl1608/

The Ipad must be control and monitoring only as it works wirelessly as well as docked.  Considering how cheap many products like GPS or phones with a touch screen have become I'm thinking it might have made as much sense to just give it a permanent screen built-in.  That way the users that do have an Ipad could have  remote mixing, yet people like me who currently have no wish to get a Ipad could still find uses for the mixer.  I know Ipads cost a lot more here than in the US, but to me it seems like Mackie are trying to make the product seem cheaper than it really is by trying to make us "forget" that we also need an Ipad for it to work.  An Ipad makes a pretty expensive screen at the rates they sell for here.  Also, most of my perceived uses for an Ipad are gig-related:  Could I still use it for those things while using it with the Mackie mixer?

I read somewhere that the mixer and the Ipad can be locked in place with "kensington"-style locks.

My main perceived use for the mixer would be for hotel staff to just control levels of stuff like mics and playback in a conference room.  But it will be a hard sell  as most conference managers I know would probably fear staff using the Ipad for all kinds of other things rendering it missing at a critical moment. 

Line 6 digital mixer:

http://line6.com/stagescape-m20d/

It's cool that they're thinking outside the box.  For many bands this will be a much more logical way of mixing from stage compared to the traditional way of doing things with channel, bus, aux, matrix, etc.
From a sound guy perspective I'm sceptical as those icons might end up confusing when all of a sudden the left guitar is the right one after the second band goes on, etc.  Also, the UI might make it easy to inadvertenty do "something stupid" to cause horrible feedback, etc.  I know it has lots of feedback suppression on-board.  Again, great for bands if they work well - maybe not-so-great for people who can handle manual control of things.  Also, the auto-identifying of speakers sounds a little scary, too.  What if I want to use an aux as a front fill?  Will the mixer start to work against me and not allow it, or try to bring up funny things in those speakers?

The looped 20 second virtual soundcheck function is super cool for bands that do their own sound from stage as they can all take turns stepping onto the dancefloor to hear how they sound in the mix (discounting direct sound vs PA-sound, of course).


Behringer analog mixers with Ipad dock:

http://www.behringer.com/news/

Behringer might actually be using some of the DSP horsepower in the Ipad as they basically use it as a plug-in host.  For instance, using the Ipad gives you access to the new Klark Technik FX processor.  I am curious to learn how well the mixer would function without the Ipad and how many functions would be missing.  Again, I believe the mixers are ordinary analog mixers with a digital plug-in host in form of an Ipad.


As far as I can tell, none of these products are really "soundguy running a small local company on the side"-style products.  Sure, many companies (even big ones) will eventually put these things in inventory to replace original 01Vs, MixWizes, 12 channel analog Yammi boards, Spirit Folios, etc to do simple bread-and-butter gigs; but from a design perspective they seem to cater to bands, musicians and hobbyists - and why not?  They're all cool little products.  As for these products threatening the existence of "real" mixers out in the wild, I think they're all meant for bands that run their own sound:  I have a stove at home that basically does the same as a professional stove (heat food) - doesn't mean that we all of a sudden see a bunch of home stoves in hotels and restaurants just because they're cheaper...


The really interesting news for the type of company mentioned above will be the Behringer X32 provided it's decent enough to be trusted as a go-to-product.  With the new Midas collaboration I don't doubt that the X32 will be a reasonable product for the smallest of sound companies, typically the ones who get by with an aged A&H GL-series mixer now, but who can't quite afford to get a used Yamaha LS9 or an used A&H Ilive.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X32.aspx

For the slightly bigger companies, the ones that have an owner who works full time, but who still only serve the local market the big news are the A&H GLD with a full feature-set and then the Midas Pro2/Pro2C for the slightly bigger guys who occationaly have to cater to BEs of bands you have heard of when they visit the local club.  Both seem to be very capable products in it's price range and seem to belong to the "next generation" of digital mixers.  The Cat5 snake as standard already seems to confirm this.

http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/pages/ProductsListing.aspx?CatId=GLDSeries

http://www.midasconsoles.com/pro2_intro.php

Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on January 20, 2012, 09:18:03 pm
Mackie sure made a bold decision with this one. It's unfortunate though that they didn't just go ahead and put the UI on the console itself and then integrate the iPad as a wireless remote unit. If the Mackie hardware in this mixer is going to list for ~$1,000, they could have added a screen and touch interface for another $500, and they would have killed Yamaha (they probably still will).

Surely the iPad is just the interface , right? I mean it doesn't actually use the iPad for signal processing does it? The reliability of the network connection is what scare me most in this set up. If you lose the network connection from the iPad to the console, then you are hosed (until you plug it back into the mixer?).

I'm sure there are going to be alot of ankle bitter club rats out there that are going to learn the hard way that tablets aren't always the best tool for every job.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: kristianjohnsen on January 21, 2012, 01:55:17 am
Just imagine years from now people associating a quality mix created on an analog console with a capability beyond that they understand and thus representing some kind of ancient magic or superhuman capability.

In a sense we are already there:  Before sound production was affordable (or even invented) people still knew how to shut up and actually listen to the instruments being played.  A skill almost forgotten, it seems sometimes.

PS:  A pro sound mixing console is a tool.  Even with all the fancy new appliances out there, we still have a market for hammers and saws at the hardware store. 

Similarly, as long as we have concert productions there will still be a need for proper mixing desks and the needs and preferences of the people using them will dictate what needs to be manufacturered in order for sales to prevail. 

If funny user interfaces or lack of features prevents professionals from embracing new technology these professionals will just keep using aged mixers of yesteryear in the lack of replacements and manufacturers will understand that this is how they'll need to keep making mixers.  If this means that the "mass market mixers" won't subsidize the price of the pro brethren it'll just mean that the people who really need the pro desks will have to pay a premium to support the R&D and small production runs of the true pro products.  Which is how it's always been, anyway.

These new entry-level products are cool for what they are, and I don't see them making us obsolete just yet.  In fact, it might work to our advantage:  Some local band might have had the ability to "force" the local sound guy to come and do gigs on their aged Soundcraft or Allen&Heath analog mixer with all-Behringer outboard, but when it comes to these new  digital products we may see more of a divide where "this is the band's onstage mixer we use to do our own sound" and "for big gigs we have a sound guy come in with his own board".

Our skill and service is still mainly what makes us valuable!
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Dave Mathew on January 21, 2012, 05:50:15 am
gotta love the marketing video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACo3VgXijlU&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 21, 2012, 08:56:54 am
gotta love the marketing video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACo3VgXijlU&feature=player_embedded

Their marketing guys must have "taken too much LDS in the 60's"
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: David Morison on January 21, 2012, 09:05:23 am
Their marketing guys must have "taken too much LDS in the 60's"

Mormons make you hallucinate? I knew they had some slightly unusual beliefs, but that's a new one on me!
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 21, 2012, 09:16:50 am
Mormons make you hallucinate? I knew they had some slightly unusual beliefs, but that's a new one on me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHxFNFWlZc
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Tracy Garner on January 21, 2012, 11:19:19 am
I can picture a Serato DJ software application running on something like that with a crossfader attached to it. Rane just released a new series of mixer in the 1500-2000 price range so conceptually an iPad doc isnt out of the price of most - especially since many Djs are already using MacBook pros...

All of the Djs could roll into the club with their Ipad, dock it and start playing music. This is definitely something to move toward.
Title: These will change the club game
Post by: eric lenasbunt on January 21, 2012, 12:42:42 pm
gotta love the marketing video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACo3VgXijlU&feature=player_embedded

I think this video had the opposite effect on me than what the marketing team intended.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 21, 2012, 12:49:10 pm
I think this video had the opposite effect on me than what the marketing team intended.
No kidding!
A sound guy on mushrooms sticking his head in the toilet for fun doesn't make me want to buy a mixer!
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 21, 2012, 01:23:19 pm
If you base your choice of a mixer on how well it will hold up to being dropped, it's going to limit your choices severley!
Mechanical reliability IS a factor, and a big one once you're out of the bar gig scene.  It was pretty difficult for the operator to drop a PM4000 or Heritage 3K, but they have fallen when EZtilts collapse, or someone decided a banquet table was a good choice for 800# of mixer & case.

The flip side is that it's very easy to drop an ipad or other remote device, they are also not immune to theft.  Neither circumstance means the devices are a failure in audio, simply that new precautions will need to be taken...  but any mixer that cant be physically controlled without the Maxipad or other device is off our radar for the kinds of work we do.

YMMV,
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Chuck Simon on January 21, 2012, 01:30:45 pm
Quote
The flip side is that it's very easy to drop an ipad or other remote device, they are also not immune to theft.  Neither circumstance means the devices are a failure in audio, simply that new precautions will need to be taken...


Of course!  The same precautions you would use with a microphone that cost more than an iPad!

I guess you could chain it to a brick(restroom keys) if you are really worried about it. ;)
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Gary Green on January 21, 2012, 03:40:55 pm
Ahh hum, my generation fully embrasses this technology (we use it now with yamaha products and wifi tablets - it is an old concept - it is the present not the future) but I digress, there is only so much you can (gracefully and quickly) tweak and dial in on a tablet, you will see, wait til you have 5khz feedback you cant kill...

Mike
U
The analogy that comes to my mind is that I would be hesitant to give up the tactile modality invovled in driving a car to using a touchscreen that applies gas, braking, turning - no matter how well it worked and how reliable it was .  The kinesthetic part of this just may have a place in what we do for a long long time - until we've completely automated the process.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 21, 2012, 03:44:16 pm
U
The analogy that comes to my mind is that I would be hesitant to give up the tactile modality invovled in driving a car to using a touchscreen that applies gas, braking, turning - no matter how well it worked and how reliable it was .  The kinesthetic part of this just may have a place in what we do for a long long time - until we've completely automated the process.

Airplanes are fly by wire.
This isn't perfect or for all needs by any means, but I still bet they sell a bus load of them.

Assumes that Apple doesn't upgrade the Ipad to something that won't fit or work

( Google Alesis IO dock - doesn't fit Ipad 2, doesn't work w/IOS 5, etc...)
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Albert Thomas on January 21, 2012, 06:32:04 pm
I dunno if it will "change" the club game other than offer another choice, and more choice is good... I like that.
For all the criticisms, some valid, some questionable, it's still a cool innovation that will be perfect for some applications.
We already have a couple of Ipads in the house and this will be perfect for the home studio/jam room I'm putting together that everyone can use. My wife's choir group practice here weekly and they'll love it because most of them already have Iphones so they'll feel right at home. My DJ son, and my heavy metal son with their smart phone skills will also fly with it.

That leaves me, the guy with the most "sound" experience having the toughest time because of my knob and fader legacy. But it'll be fun to learn something new and wring it out in a non-critical environment. That should give me enough experience to help me decide if I would want to use it for a small gig. I still would never ever want to give up my knobs and faders on a bigger board.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 21, 2012, 08:05:30 pm

,but any mixer that cant be physically controlled without the Maxipad or other device is off our radar for the kinds of work we do.

YMMV,
Do I hear an amen my brothers.
I can run my APB with a bad channel, I can replace a failed power supply in less than 5 minutes, it won't fit inside someones jacket, and if I drop it chances are nothing will be wrong when I pick it up again.
I carry two DSPs AND a crossover. Why would I put all of my faith in a single Ipad. Is there a belief they never fail?? I see DJ apps written all over this and that would be fine as long as it doesn't shit the bed at my daughters wedding.
 
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Nathan DePaulo on January 21, 2012, 11:04:10 pm
Do I hear an amen my brothers.
I can run my APB with a bad channel, I can replace a failed power supply in less than 5 minutes, it won't fit inside someones jacket, and if I drop it chances are nothing will be wrong when I pick it up again.
I carry two DSPs AND a crossover. Why would I put all of my faith in a single Ipad. Is there a belief they never fail?? I see DJ apps written all over this and that would be fine as long as it doesn't shit the bed at my daughters wedding.

I think you're overlooking the ubiquitous nature of the ipad.  Obviously Mackie isn't trying to penetrate the touring audio market with the product, but if we're talking about bar gigs... well, if you drop your ipad you can always run to 24 hr walmart and get another one.  Can't do that with any other component in a digital mixer.  I wouldn't even have to go that far, I've got 3 friends I could call that would be up, and maybe even already at my gig.

I'm not saying it's perfect, I just think it's not that critical an issue since it's easily replaceable. I take more issue with the knobs for preamps, instead of re-callable preamps. I think a better take on this product would be a rack mountable device with a built in wireless router.  You never need to physically connect your ipad/pc etc...
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Brad Weber on January 22, 2012, 09:18:34 am
I think you're overlooking the ubiquitous nature of the ipad.  Obviously Mackie isn't trying to penetrate the touring audio market with the product, but if we're talking about bar gigs... well, if you drop your ipad you can always run to 24 hr walmart and get another one.  Can't do that with any other component in a digital mixer.  I wouldn't even have to go that far, I've got 3 friends I could call that would be up, and maybe even already at my gig.
Let's see, run to the WalMart and get the iPad, configure the iPad, load the related apps, probably lose any presets, etc.  I don't really see that being less of a show stopper than a power supply failing and you still also have a mixer power supply that could fail.  I just don't see reliability being a positive unless you actually have a second backup, preconfigured iPad ready to go.  In addition, for people using the mixer for their own personal use it doesn't matter but there could be potential issues with using someone's personal iPad for a company's work, so for venues, sound companies, etc. these mixers would likely mean purchasing at least one dedicated iPad per mixer.

I definitely see these mixers having a place.  I also see it quickly getting to where you have people that talk about all their mixing experience and are totally at a loss when presented with a MixWiz or similar.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Bob Leonard on January 22, 2012, 11:20:09 am
Provider: "Here's the board. It's a very simple APB Pro House. 20 channels, 4 bus, 6 aux sends, L/R/C output, high pass on every channel, 4 band EQ. Any questions?

BE: "Where do I plug in my Ipad, and what's L/R/C output?"

Provider: "You don't plug it in, you search the web with it for the APB manual and a good book on basic mix technique."

BE: "What if the battery dies."

Provider: "Call your friends and see if they'll lend you their's."
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 22, 2012, 01:39:47 pm
Provider: "Here's the board. It's a very simple APB Pro House. 20 channels, 4 bus, 6 aux sends, L/R/C output, high pass on every channel, 4 band EQ. Any questions?

BE: "Where do I plug in my Ipad, and what's L/R/C output?"

Provider: "You don't plug it in, you search the web with it for the APB manual and a good book on basic mix technique."

BE: "What if the battery dies."

Provider: "Call your friends and see if they'll lend you their's."

The charger is built in, no dead Ipad batteries.
Works with up to 10 Ipads (take a 2nd one if you mix wirelessly)

It is most definitely not an APB replacement.
(But if they put FOH behind the stage, the Mackie might allow for a better mix)

Depends on what you need.  There are places this thing will fit nicely in.
(However, I doubt that Bob works that type of show!)
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on January 22, 2012, 02:10:28 pm
The charger is built in, no dead Ipad batteries.
Works with up to 10 Ipads (take a 2nd one if you mix wirelessly)

It is most definitely not an APB replacement.
(But if they put FOH behind the stage, the Mackie might allow for a better mix)

Depends on what you need.  There are places this thing will fit nicely in.
(However, I doubt that Bob works that type of show!)

I can see this thing coming in handy when you have to go in and do a special event on an installed system of limited capability/access at a church, school or small "corpy" gig where you set it up @ the house mixer, then go out and run the little "show" from out front without having to haul in more than a briefcase.  As such, I'd classify this as a "wrench" rather than a "tool kit".......
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on January 22, 2012, 02:14:21 pm
I can see this thing coming in handy when you have to go in and do a special event on an installed system of limited capability/access at a church, school or small "corpy" gig where you set it up @ the house mixer, then go out and run the little "show" from out front without having to haul in more than a briefcase.  As such, I'd classify this as a "wrench" rather than a "tool kit".......



Some days you need this
(http://www.armyknive.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/big-swiss-army-knife.jpg)

Other days, this does just fine!
(http://www.earthpm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/the-swiss-army-knife.jpg)
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Rob Gow on January 22, 2012, 03:45:05 pm
I mix remotely all the time, via iPad, with my StudioLive 24.4.2 and I love it. I love the freedom to move around, checking the mix, and mixing from different parts of the room.

but

Every now and then you get a challenging band, some wonky instrument prone to feeding back (banjo through a guitar amp, lol wut) and during those times, it's nice to be at the desk.

Out of the last 6 bands I mixed, 5 I did roaming from the iPad, but there was one out of the 6 that I spent the whole set at the desk, just to be on top of things. So I like that the iPad is a tool, and a useful one, but when push comes to shove, it's nice to be at a desk with faders and knobs, and quick access to things, in the heat of battle.

The challenging band:

6 members

4 vox
2 guitars
1 accordion/washboard (which surprisingly wasn't hard too  keep a handle on)
1 banjo through an electric guitar amp (yeah all kinds of feedback, but from HIM feeding back through his guitar amp)
bass
drums

But the gig went without a hitch, the recording sounds great, except for the banjo, but I'm thinking a little judicious cutting and pasting will clean it up...


My next purchase, is going to be a StudioLive 16.0.2 for smaller gigs. I did an open mic, and to have the 24.4.2 there for 2 mics and 2 guitars seemed like a bit of overkill. The nice thing is that I can use my rack mounted Mac Mini & router with both mixers, for remote mixing and recording with both mixers.

Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Randall Hyde on January 23, 2012, 12:33:12 am
Mackie sure made a bold decision with this one. It's unfortunate though that they didn't just go ahead and put the UI on the console itself and then integrate the iPad as a wireless remote unit. If the Mackie hardware in this mixer is going to list for ~$1,000, they could have added a screen and touch interface for another $500, and they would have killed Yamaha (they probably still will).
Lot of software to write to accomplish that. With the iPad, they get a lot of that software written for them (iOS, the iOS UI, and the iOS SDK). It's not "just add a touch screen and go." There's a lot of software support behind that.

Quote
Surely the iPad is just the interface , right? I mean it doesn't actually use the iPad for signal processing does it?
Yes, the iPad is just the interface. Also, you can store mixes, etc., on the iPad (I don't believe preamp gain settings are recallable, this is an issue). You can also play tracks from GarageBand or iTunes through the 1608 and record a stereo pair to the iPad.

Quote
The reliability of the network connection is what scare me most in this set up. If you lose the network connection from the iPad to the console, then you are hosed (until you plug it back into the mixer?).
True anytime you're doing wireless (Mackie 1608 or anyone else). Yes, plug it into the mixer and you're good to go. Of course, I'd recommend having two iPads with one permanently attached to the 1608 (using the locking block they have) and wandering around with the other one.

Quote
I'm sure there are going to be alot of ankle bitter club rats out there that are going to learn the hard way that tablets aren't always the best tool for every job.
Yeah, but they generally don't do *every* job, so maybe they'll get by :)

Seriously, I don't really like virtual mixing (using a mouse or touch screen), but I can get by on it. I suspect that if someone cuts their teeth on something like the 1608, they'll think it's perfectly natural.

Though I hate virtual mixing environments (no physical faders), I certainly see where this rig would be useful when you're a journeyman and you walk up to a venue, plug in a few cables, and go. The thing almost fits in a briefcase. For some gigs, that convenience might win out.

Now for something really sick, I can hardly wait until someone reverse-engineers the wireless protocols and lets you hook up a Mackie MCU+XT to this thing (of course, Mackie won't publish that information, just try and get the MCU and XT protocols from them -- sheesh!)
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on February 24, 2012, 07:40:10 pm
Forget that, I answered my own question. :)
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Jim Rutherford on February 26, 2012, 10:49:19 pm
One issue not brought up yet is wifii jamming.  Some one flips on a jammer, there goes your wireless mixer.  Not to even think about the possibility of it causing the system to lose total control and say go into uncontrolled feedback.
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Rob Gow on February 26, 2012, 11:42:22 pm
Picked up the 16.0.2 on Tuesday. Looking forward to my first gig with it...

A comedian.

SOS
2 monitors
1 mic

Perfect. I'll remote mix him, and even record the show. 

Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Matt Tudor on February 27, 2012, 11:14:54 am
You've got one heck of a business model if you can afford to go out and replace an ipad like that. $300 gig minus gear cost minus labor minus cost of new ipad = financial insolvency in a hurry. I suspect the bigger companies that could afford to eat the cost of the new ipad are going to be using "real" board with ipad apps, not this toy. Your Walmart has much better customer service than the one in my town if you can get there, buy one, and get back by the end of intermission. To say nothing of downloading whatever app this thing takes (assuming you have internet access at your venue) and getting it back up and running. Losing an i-pad in this situation, from dropping, theft, or simple mechanical failure, would probably be as much a show stopper as shelling a mixer mid-set.

I mix FOH with Yamaha's StageMix from time to time, most recently two weeks ago. We hosted a private party for a small crowd that was down at the front of the house and mix position was at the back. It was nice to be able to walk down to where the crowd was to mix, and the lost of tactile interface really didn't seem to bother me, but it was a small band. 8 channel or so. I just don't know if I would use this much with my gigs. The larger gigs get an LS9 which already has ipad control, and the smaller gigs we do tend to be set and forget with small 8 and 12 channel mixers. No way I'm leaving an ipad setting out for the evening with those gigs. The Kensington lock only guarantees that not only will the ipad be gone, but the dock it's attached to as well.

I think you're overlooking the ubiquitous nature of the ipad.  Obviously Mackie isn't trying to penetrate the touring audio market with the product, but if we're talking about bar gigs... well, if you drop your ipad you can always run to 24 hr walmart and get another one.  Can't do that with any other component in a digital mixer.  I wouldn't even have to go that far, I've got 3 friends I could call that would be up, and maybe even already at my gig.

I'm not saying it's perfect, I just think it's not that critical an issue since it's easily replaceable. I take more issue with the knobs for preamps, instead of re-callable preamps. I think a better take on this product would be a rack mountable device with a built in wireless router.  You never need to physically connect your ipad/pc etc...
Title: Re: These will change the club game
Post by: Steve Hurt on February 27, 2012, 11:35:36 am
Kensington lock is for the mixer itself.

The locking device that secures the iPad to the mixer looks pretty sturdy.

They will have to steal the mixer to get the Ipad.