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Title: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 09, 2011, 08:12:04 am
Hello,

i have not beeen on for a while,can anyone shed light on time aligning or phase aligning the subs to the tops......

Which way do i time align the system so i dont have phasing problems ,which i think i have at the minute.....

do i ,

delay the tops to the subs??????????
or the subs to the tops?????????

also what problems do i encounter when i place one sub at either side of the stage??????

the power alley effect,would it be better to stack them all at one point....a centre stack or a right stack?

Leon
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 09, 2011, 08:13:25 am
The Danley is a horn loaded sub so if the horn is say 14 foot do i add a 14ft delay to the tops?

Leon
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 09, 2011, 09:21:02 am
Also,

which is the best way to go.reverse polarity the subs,different people different views,well it depends on this depends on that,do you or dont you??????????

i read on here that the subs need to be reversed polaritied because of the magnet in TH115?????????

No point in buying a Ferrari then it runs like a scrapped car,

I ran the SM60 on a yamaha home cinema amp and it was awsome 60 watts.
In my live situation i put a FP3400 and it seems i have to thronk the living daylights out of it just to get it up there,also people who have watched us say it sounds muffled?????????

So if i am correct if the tops are not in phase with the subs then i get rhubarb sound or in simple terms a pile of bad sounding crap.

Leon


Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2011, 12:22:59 pm
leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 08:12

Hello,

i have not beeen on for a while,can anyone shed light on time aligning or phase aligning the subs to the tops......

Which way do i time align the system so i dont have phasing problems ,which i think i have at the minute.....

do i ,

delay the tops to the subs??????????
or the subs to the tops?????????

also what problems do i encounter when i place one sub at either side of the stage??????

the power alley effect,would it be better to stack them all at one point....a centre stack or a right stack?

Leon

The only "phasing problems" you would have would be around the crossover point.

What you align to what-depends on the physical position of the cabients to each other and the particular place you want to align them to.  Every other place will be different.

Whether you place them together or seperate depends on a lot of different variables.  One solution does not fit all-despite what some people think.  Each situation has it's own set of advantages and disadvantages.  Sometimes what is an advantgage in one situation is a disadvantage in another.

Each setup/room has to be evaluated on its own.

In most cases however (there are exceptions) I would not recommend putting all the subs on one side.  Although I have done it myself and it worked great-FOR that particular situation.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2011, 12:25:25 pm
leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 08:13

The Danley is a horn loaded sub so if the horn is say 14 foot do i add a 14ft delay to the tops?

Leon

The length of the horn is not what is important.  But rather the phase of the differences in the signals.

As a general rule-the "delay" time for a tapped horn is somewhere between the physical length of the horn and the loudspeaker driver exit to the horn.

How much depends on what freq you are talking about-the phase.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2011, 12:36:31 pm
leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 09:21

Also,

which is the best way to go.reverse polarity the subs,different people different views,well it depends on this depends on that,do you or dont you??????????

i read on here that the subs need to be reversed polaritied because of the magnet in TH115?????????

No point in buying a Ferrari then it runs like a scrapped car,

I ran the SM60 on a yamaha home cinema amp and it was awsome 60 watts.
In my live situation i put a FP3400 and it seems i have to thronk the living daylights out of it just to get it up there,also people who have watched us say it sounds muffled?????????

So if i am correct if the tops are not in phase with the subs then i get rhubarb sound or in simple terms a pile of bad sounding crap.

Leon




Whether you flip the polarity or not depends on how you are running the system and how it is setup.  If you are not going to worry about delaying or lining up the subs to the mains-then I would flip the polarity of the sub.  This will help the lows sum together, but will cause some ripples a bit higher in response.

If you align them properly, then generally you do not need to flip the polarity-but that depends on what freq you have the crossover at.

Again the alignment is only going to affect the freq around crossover and would have nothing to do with it sounding muffled.

If the cabinet sounds fine at home-but muffled at the live event-then I would look at something else in your system.  Main EQ, channel eq on the console, comp/limiter, microphones etc.

I have actually had a situation with some gear that flipping the polarity on the balanced lines really cleaned up the sound (sounded like the blanket had been taken off).  This is due to one of the pieces of gear not really being balanced (but had XLR's so I assumed Shocked  Embarassed it was balanced-oh the good 'ol days when a lot of gear was not really balanced-even top of the line pro gear Mad ).

The loudspeakers job is to simply try to reproduce what is coming into it as best as it can.  If the signal coming is "flawed", then the signal coming out will have that same
"flaw".

It is amazing to me how many times the loudspeakers get blamed-yet they are just doing their job and the real problem is elsewhere.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 09, 2011, 12:46:59 pm
Many thanks Ivan for your reply.....


ok lets run a scenario...... the L/R speakers are 25 ft apart in a small venue and the subs are  underneath the tops all speakers facing out.The Danley top boxes are around 2 feet set back flown on trussing 8 feet in the air.Now does the Sub from what i have explained need to be delayed to compensate for the top being 2 feet back or does the top Danley box need to be delayed to compensate for the time it takes the sound to go around the horn then out of the front of the TH115........

The Danley horn as i believe is roughly 9 and a half feet in length,so that would be if im thinking logicaly 9ms of delay but the top boxes are 2 feet behind the top boxes......

So is that a 7 ms delay on the tops or possibly a delay of 2ms on the subs if the length of horn has no bearing in sound,any phasing you know is bad for sound even if it is just around the crossover point......

all i know is this im having to nearly get my FP3400 to nearly clip to get the SM60f loud around 110 db but if i run say a 800 watt amp on it its very quiet even at full on power????

If i run the SM60 on a tiny 60 watt amp in my home cinema its stupid how loud it goes.....if i put the SM60F on my Lab amp its getting over 20 x the power at full on power....

Up to now i have had to replace 5 horns in one of the Danley SM60f,i work in a situation where a lot of singers and performers watch other acts,now when a few musiscians come up to you and say its muffled then i am bemused....

When you spec'd the output of the Danleys saying at the mid 120db range it was loud.....what amp was on it? wat slope of dsp.

Im puzzled,all cables made by Van Damme,Amps Lab Gruppen,musical source excellent,Danley boxes should equate to perfection but blown drivers and having to thronk a fp3400 and a fp6400 is not correct.......

Leon








Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align-Measurement location
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2011, 01:17:48 pm
leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 12:46

Many thanks Ivan for your reply.....


ok lets run a scenario...... the L/R speakers are 25 ft apart in a small venue and the subs are  underneath the tops all speakers facing out.The Danley top boxes are around 2 feet set back flown on trussing 8 feet in the air.Now does the Sub from what i have explained need to be delayed to compensate for the top being 2 feet back or does the top Danley box need to be delayed to compensate for the time it takes the sound to go around the horn then out of the front of the TH115........

The Danley horn as i believe is roughly 9 and a half feet in length,so that would be if im thinking logicaly 9ms of delay but the top boxes are 2 feet behind the top boxes......

So is that a 7 ms delay on the tops or possibly a delay of 2ms on the subs if the length of horn has no bearing in sound,any phasing you know is bad for sound even if it is just around the crossover point......

all i know is this im having to nearly get my FP3400 to nearly clip to get the SM60f loud around 110 db but if i run say a 800 watt amp on it its very quiet even at full on power????

If i run the SM60 on a tiny 60 watt amp in my home cinema its stupid how loud it goes.....if i put the SM60F on my Lab amp its getting over 20 x the power at full on power....

Up to now i have had to replace 5 horns in one of the Danley SM60f,i work in a situation where a lot of singers and performers watch other acts,now when a few musiscians come up to you and say its muffled then i am bemused....

When you spec'd the output of the Danleys saying at the mid 120db range it was loud.....what amp was on it? wat slope of dsp.




If your SM60's are that high up, and behind the subs, and when you account for the depth of the SM60's you may find that you are already pretty well "aligned.  As I said in another post-it is not the total length of the Tapped horn that is the effective length-it is somewhere in the middle-depending on freq.

When you say 110dB, where is that measured at?  If you are 10M away-you will have lost 20dB due to distance-so the actual output of the box at 1M (what it is speced at) would be around 130dB.

Distance matters when talking SPL. 4 Meters away the level would be 12dB lower.

You say you have relaced 5 horns in one of the SM60.  What part of the horn driver was going bad-the mids or the highs?  Do you have the parts you have taken out.  Looking at how they failed can tell a lot about the problem-sometimes.

I would not keep shoving parts in, untill I found out what the real problem is.

Are those in the SAME SM60?  If so, then there might be a problem with the crossover in that box.  Have you contacted Danley-who did you talk to?  I have not heard anything about it.  That type of thing should come to me.

It also sounds as if you are simply trying to get to much sound out of those boxes.  There are limits to how loud they (and any box) can get.  Maybe you need more rig for the gig.

You say you are close to peaking out the amp.  The amp you are using is a good size-assuming you are not limiting/compressing the signal.

If you are compressing the signal, then the average power will be higher and that may be what is killing the drivers.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align-Measurement location
Post by: leon garrity on January 09, 2011, 01:27:55 pm
Hi its the same box that has failed  drivers its the hi driver the bms,after inspection it was a very tiny burn or break in the copper coil,maybe i have run them a little high but say if at the minute it was say an 800 watt amp on instead of the Fp3400 then it would be very quiet. i do mean quiet.

I love my danleys just trying to eradicate problems i have.

Leon.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Art Welter on January 09, 2011, 01:44:07 pm
leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 10:46



all i know is this im having to nearly get my FP3400 to nearly clip to get the SM60f loud around 110 db but if i run say a 800 watt amp on it its very quiet even at full on power????

If i run the SM60 on a tiny 60 watt amp in my home cinema its stupid how loud it goes.....if i put the SM60F on my Lab amp its getting over 20 x the power at full on power....


The SM60 is about 96 dB one watt one meter so peak output should be 106 dB at10 watts, 116 dB with 100, and 126 dB at 1000 watts.
In your home cinima situattion, the room is probably small enough that there is not much level change anywhere in the room when measured with a dB meter, and with a pair, each driven with 60 watts, 110 should not be a problem.

In a larger room, or outside, level  sound drops 6 dB per doubling of distance. Your meter also may not catch the peaks, it could read another 6 dB lower than the theoretical output of 120 dB at  2 meters, 114 dB at 4 meters, 108 dB at 8 meters.

“110 dB” should be tops at 8 meters (26 feet), especially if read on the dBA scale.

If you are burning  drivers, you are using too much long term power, which means you must turn it down or get more speakers.
Four eight inch and a pair of 5” mid/1" high can only get so loud before they vaporize.

Sub alignment, as Ivan says, depends on the crossover frequency and other variables.

You want the phase of the subs to align to the phase of the low mids. If you look at your speaker's phase charts, you will see that varies with frequency.

Rather than going over sub alignment in detail, I’d suggest doing a search, the subject has been covered in the Lounge many times.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align-Measurement location
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2011, 02:03:46 pm
leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 13:27

Hi its the same box that has failed  drivers its the hi driver the bms,after inspection it was a very tiny burn or break in the copper coil,maybe i have run them a little high but say if at the minute it was say an 800 watt amp on instead of the Fp3400 then it would be very quiet. i do mean quiet.

I love my danleys just trying to eradicate problems i have.

Leon.

800 watts would only be 3dB down from what you have.  Maybe you have a cable issue-a partial short can cause all kinds of problems.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2011, 02:08:24 pm
Art Welter wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 13:44

[Rather than going over sub alignment in detail, I’d suggest doing a search, the subject has been covered in the Lounge many times.


I am working on a paper in which I will be measuring REAL cabinets (no computer models), and using the various different methods and showing the MEASURED results and how the alignment changes with freq and so forth.

Hopefully this will help explain the idea.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Jeff Bailie on January 09, 2011, 03:44:07 pm
Hi Leon.

Sorry if I am mistaken, But are you not the same person who has had problems with Sm60's since there debut?  I have read over your posts for months now. I would get into your system prossesor and make sure you have it setup right.  It sounds to me like you have some sort of Autogain or a compressor engaged or something...

Have you tried pluging the speakers directly into the amp and using full range signal? Or checked to see if your amp has processing that you may have left on?  Something is wrong, But like Ivan says It doesn't sound like the cabinet.  I would get into the signal flow of things. Maybe reset your processor back to factory settings and start all over.  

If all else fails, send it in to get looked at.

I Delay my Sh50's about 10 feet or so to my Labhorns.. I do this by ear. If I use reference material that has a sharp 4 on the floor beat(techno) I can hear when the kick is aligned.

When I use subs in a stereo fashion what I really notice is the nodes and anti-nodes.  As you walk from one side of the venue to the other you can hear a fan like splay of unevenness in the coverage.  In a mono style fashion this wont happen.  

I don't know what to tell you about the phasing problem. Again, I think it is your signal processing.  If you had audible phasing problems with your speakers. It would only be noticeable where your two signals overlap at the crossover point.  You should try separating the crossover point so they don't overlap and see what that sounds like.  

And my last suggestion is to try a different system processor.  

Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2011, 04:57:31 pm
Jeff Bailie wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 15:44

Hi Leon.

Sorry if I am mistaken, But are you not the same person who has had problems with Sm60's since there debut?  I have read over your posts for months now. I would get into your system prossesor and make sure you have it setup right.  It sounds to me like you have some sort of Autogain or a compressor engaged or something...

Have you tried pluging the speakers directly into the amp and using full range signal? Or checked to see if your amp has processing that you may have left on?  Something is wrong, But like Ivan says It doesn't sound like the cabinet.  I would get into the signal flow of things. Maybe reset your processor back to factory settings and start all over.  

If all else fails, send it in to get looked at.

I Delay my Sh50's about 10 feet or so to my Labhorns.. I do this by ear. If I use reference material that has a sharp 4 on the floor beat(techno) I can hear when the kick is aligned.

When I use subs in a stereo fashion what I really notice is the nodes and anti-nodes.  As you walk from one side of the venue to the other you can hear a fan like splay of unevenness in the coverage.  In a mono style fashion this wont happen.  

I don't know what to tell you about the phasing problem. Again, I think it is your signal processing.  If you had audible phasing problems with your speakers. It would only be noticeable where your two signals overlap at the crossover point.  You should try separating the crossover point so they don't overlap and see what that sounds like.  

And my last suggestion is to try a different system processor.  




As with any problem, you have to accuractly describe the problem.  Is the "phasing" between the ops or between the tops and the subs.  And is it per side or in the middle or where?

What sort of freq range is involved?

Etc.

Your delay time may be correct for the Lab subs-since they are a regular horn and the pathlength is pretty much the length of the horn.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Jeff Bailie on January 09, 2011, 07:18:34 pm
Yes, Ivan always has a very well defined way of explaining what I am trying to say.

I was just trying to help come up with some ideas to help navigate around the system possessor. If by chance the speakers sound normal directly off the amp, then you know for sure that the problem is not the speakers.

I am not recommending that you run the speakers at high output levels without proper high pass.      

I would do some listening and some trouble shooting and try to fix your ongoing problems with the SM60's Leon.

In comparison, My SH50's seemed to come Plug-N-Play...

After months of issues with your brand new SM60's people are curious as to weather you have a broken SM60 or a signal flow problem.  I just want your speakers to work right so I can ask you how they sound.. Cool  



 
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 09, 2011, 08:19:45 pm
Hi Jeff,

ive used the EAW UX8800 processor from the moment i got the Danleys in just the ordinary DSP type processor mode,ive buzzed all my cables,checked all my loudspeaker cables.

All the cables are Van Damme cables which are the touring choice of cables in the UK,all connectors are Neutrik.

The Ux8800 is set to

25hz LPF and 79.2 HPF for the Subs
79.2 LPF and 20khz HPF for the Tops/ 24db BW for the slopes with a 6db BW for the high end.
Centre speaker set to 120 LPF/20KHZ HPF

No Compression or Limiting on the UX8800.

Amps set to 35db of input gain, UX8800 set to normal no gain added or subtracted.

Im Using a Digital desk....So i ask does the Latency of the desk and the latency of the processor have bearing on sound,the processor i believe to be 3.13ms of latency.so say the desk had 1.5ms of latency,that would be nearly 5ms of latency plus any time alignment issues reguarding tops to subs.I do apologise for not understanding things but its a learning process.

many thanks Leon




Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 09, 2011, 08:23:28 pm
If there was phasing issues at the crossover point how much does it affect?????

my guess the phasing just wouldnt stop at say a crossover point of 80Hz,would it affect frequencies to either side of the crossover point.

Leon
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2011, 08:47:39 pm
leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 20:19

Hi Jeff,

ive used the EAW UX8800 processor from the moment i got the Danleys in just the ordinary DSP type processor mode,ive buzzed all my cables,checked all my loudspeaker cables.

All the cables are Van Damme cables which are the touring choice of cables in the UK,all connectors are Neutrik.

The Ux8800 is set to

25hz LPF and 79.2 HPF for the Subs
79.2 LPF and 20khz HPF for the Tops/ 24db BW for the slopes with a 6db BW for the high end.
Centre speaker set to 120 LPF/20KHZ HPF

No Compression or Limiting on the UX8800.

Amps set to 35db of input gain, UX8800 set to normal no gain added or subtracted.

Im Using a Digital desk....So i ask does the Latency of the desk and the latency of the processor have bearing on sound,the processor i believe to be 3.13ms of latency.so say the desk had 1.5ms of latency,that would be nearly 5ms of latency plus any time alignment issues reguarding tops to subs.I do apologise for not understanding things but its a learning process.

many thanks Leon



If those are actually your settings, then that could be most of your problem.

You need to reverse all of your high and low pass settings.  Meaning you need to turn all of your highpass filters into lowpass filters and the lowpass filters into highpass filters.

You have them all backwards.

The latency of the digital desk is not going to affect anything that you have been talking about.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 09, 2011, 08:51:31 pm
leon garrity wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 20:23

If there was phasing issues at the crossover point how much does it affect?????

my guess the phasing just wouldnt stop at say a crossover point of 80Hz,would it affect frequencies to either side of the crossover point.

Leon

When you are talking about "phasing issues" maybe it would help to try and better explain what you really mean.  There may be a confusion of terms here.

Not having the phase lined up where the levels are equal can result in notches in the freq response.  
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 09, 2011, 08:52:29 pm
Sorry just got the HPF/LPF on the message wrong way around.LOL

cheers
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 09, 2011, 09:14:58 pm
I thnk it might be a little confusion on both parts,time alignment sounds correct.

Leon.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 16, 2011, 09:23:53 am
Calling all boffins to lend advice......

As you know ive been on here for a while,going over my sound dilemmas.....even though i try to have the best of equipment when it comes to the problems in sound im befuddled to say the least.......

Ive gone through every cable,connector etc trying to see what the hell is causing me my problems.....

For the last two years my show music has been on computer going through USB to soundcard to desk......the first souncard was a cheap external one,so when people commented saying your music is lacklustre,i replaced it with a very high end external souncard.Still when people came to view the show(other singers and muso's) they still commented saying the music sounded muffled????????? which has been my dillema since ive used laptop for playback of music that i use in my show.....

I got shut of my EAW KF695z system because i thought it was the system???????? replaced it with my Danleys.Problem still there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The soundcard is USB fed then out on Balanced Jack to desk but when you inserted the jack it banged on the left side through the PA????????? so last night i just used the headphone socket with minijack to 6.3mm left and right. We went on stage for second half,the difference was night and day,full sound,clarity,amps became responsive and the vocals became full.Now it might be a fluke..but if it isn't and performs like it did in our second set...then surely all this time it has to be the USB output either putting voltage into the desk or something to do with it.....

Can USB do this....The diffence was very dramatic.We both looked at each other and said what the hell......So any views are welcome....

kind reguards Leon

...









Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Jeff Bailie on January 16, 2011, 11:42:23 am
Wow.... Are you saying that you have not listened to any other program material or sound source through your speakers? For 2 years?  

You got rid of your EAW KF695's because they sounded muffled? Then you bought Danley SM60's and the problem didn't go away....

And 2 years later this is the first time you are using another device other than this USB output?

I am completely blown away by your last post Leon.


Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 16, 2011, 02:27:52 pm
Hi Jeff,

yeah i listened to them in my home workshop,with cd,s through a high end cd player.Everything sounded as i knew it would but.....i use  the system for my act,now since utilizing a laptop via USB which was advised by the show programmer to use indeed i have struggled with my sound,changing PA,Desk,mics pulled my hair out, spending over
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Mark Lonow on January 16, 2011, 07:48:00 pm

Calling all boffins to lend advice......




maby the person sayin it sounded muffled  was out of the pattern of the box perhaps

if some one said it sounded muffley i would ask them where they where standin

1 60x60 box a side might not cover up aginst the stage well


60x60 is a general spec it probaly narrows as frequency goes up
wider as it goes down


maby ur subs r just set to loud or over powerin the tops

Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 16, 2011, 09:41:48 pm
Mark Lonow wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 19:48


60x60 is a general spec it probaly narrows as frequency goes up
wider as it goes down





Have you ever seen the polars of Danley products?  They don't narrow up as most boxes do and maintain that pattern to a much lower freq than other products.

You can't make general assumptions.  In general you are correct-just not in this case.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Mark Lonow on January 16, 2011, 10:52:24 pm
i been on the danley sight for years never seen the polar paterns

its not on the product page

always thought the sell page for danley products was a bit short winded not much info

but i just found the clf viewer  Cool
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: leon garrity on January 17, 2011, 09:04:53 am
Hi Mark,

I think in this instance its not whether the boxes are at fault but down to the usb connection from laptop to external soundcard.which i have used ever since getting my EAW rig....
My first realization that something was not correct when people start commenting that something doesn't sound right.However because you are using the equipment to the best of your ability you carry on so to speak.You check all cables,check PC,check drivers,amps,still utilizing the laptop as its my source for work purposes.Then i came to the conclusion it must be the rig.I  purchase the Danley rig,firstly test it with a Cd player and some different genres of music,Sting,Pavarotti.Sounded ace.
Then go to work as normal,taking for granted that your laptop is doing its job via the souncard.But one thing i notice is from the very beginning i am having to drive it so very hard,hard as i mean push the Lab amps to the point of clip.If i run it low its pointless..Ending with blown horns.........not good!
Then three weeks ago an artiste freind who also is a very good engineer says "something don't sound right in your system" this then got my cogs turning and wanted to understand why why why?

Impossible two world class rigs can sound bad (unless i was bad in a past life)Ive also changed from EAW UX8800 to BSS minidrive.So whilst at the gig on Saturday night,after the first set i disengaged external soundcard,using internal soundcard taking source from headphone jack......Low and behold i have a rig.......

Reguarding the Danley top box,it is amazing,fair enough outside dispersion it drops off in level etc but due to the scary pattern control.In this case my findings are user stupidity,not checking every element for granted and thinking that it has to be something you can either hear or see.From my research of this last weekend.my conclusions are USB is for printers not audio.
kindest reguards Leon.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Jeff Bailie on January 17, 2011, 11:02:05 am
Is still cant believe you went through replacing an EAW rig with a Danley Sound Labs rig to get to this conclusion.

After 2 years of problems, I bet you check the 1st piece of gear in your signal flow next time something sounds funny...

While your at it you may want to go that extra mile and use WAV files only. I am referring to production as well. Good sound starts at the beginning of the signal. Even prior to your broken USB device.

Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Frederik Rosenkjær on January 18, 2011, 03:03:31 am
leon garrity wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 14:04

my conclusions are USB is for printers not audio.



Not really a sound conclusion. No pun intended.
Title: Re: danley subs to danley tops time alignment/phase align
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 18, 2011, 08:04:11 am
leon garrity wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 09:04

Hi Mark,

I think in this instance its not whether the boxes are at fault but down to the usb connection from laptop to external soundcard.which i have used ever since getting my EAW rig....
My first realization that something was not correct when people start commenting that something doesn't sound right.However because you are using the equipment to the best of your ability you carry on so to speak.You check all cables,check PC,check drivers,amps,still utilizing the laptop as its my source for work purposes.Then i came to the conclusion it must be the rig.I  purchase the Danley rig,firstly test it with a Cd player and some different genres of music,Sting,Pavarotti.Sounded ace.
Then go to work as normal,taking for granted that your laptop is doing its job via the souncard.But one thing i notice is from the very beginning i am having to drive it so very hard,hard as i mean push the Lab amps to the point of clip.If i run it low its pointless..Ending with blown horns.........not good!
Then three weeks ago an artiste freind who also is a very good engineer says "something don't sound right in your system" this then got my cogs turning and wanted to understand why why why?

Impossible two world class rigs can sound bad (unless i was bad in a past life)Ive also changed from EAW UX8800 to BSS minidrive.So whilst at the gig on Saturday night,after the first set i disengaged external soundcard,using internal soundcard taking source from headphone jack......Low and behold i have a rig.......

Reguarding the Danley top box,it is amazing,fair enough outside dispersion it drops off in level etc but due to the scary pattern control.In this case my findings are user stupidity,not checking every element for granted and thinking that it has to be something you can either hear or see.From my research of this last weekend.my conclusions are USB is for printers not audio.
kindest reguards Leon.

Glad you found the problem.

But don't just blame the tool (USB), it is more likely how it is being used that is the problem.  Different clock rates or something like that.