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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB Subwoofer FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Randy Freemire on December 15, 2010, 07:45:12 pm

Title: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Randy Freemire on December 15, 2010, 07:45:12 pm
Hi- I was looking through the LAB SUBWOOFER with great interest but haven't seen the overview that I was looking for.  I looked through the stickies, and while it's showing alot of technical details, I didn't see the big picture anywhere.

Would someone make a sticky, something like "LAB SUBWOOFER PROJECT: Big Picture" and include the basics for someone like me that doesn't have a clue how to put all this info in context.

1. Approximately how long it would take for someone with moderate woodworking skills to make one of these boxes.  How about the second one?

2. Is there just one or are there several sizes (they seem huge from what i've seen).  What do they weigh?  What does it take to man handle them?

3. What's the approximate cost for wood, speakers, etc.

4. What do they compare to?

5. Is anyone making parts (such as cutting out all the pieces that you then assemble and glue)?

6. What amplifiers and DSP are used?


I imagine these basic questions are answered if you spent several hours on this site, but I don't know why you'all wouldn't just put an overview Sticky up that answers these very basic questions.

This must be one hellofa subwoofer if it's in the same league as a EAW sub going for a coupla hundred grand!

Thanks!

Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 15, 2010, 09:34:50 pm
Hi Randy-

I suggest you *search* for the stars....

Use Google and append this to your search terms to limit hits to the Live Sound forums-  site:srforums.prosoundweb.com

The info is in here, trust me.

I haven't built the LABsub, but I followed the project from the first comments by Tom Danley, so I can answer a couple of your questions.

There is only 1 size, and it uses only 1 specific model of speaker.  It's a custom job from Eminence and available from Parts Express or any Eminence dealer.  They are "truck-pack friendly", sized at 22.5" x 45" x 45" and weigh around 230-250#.  Some folks say theirs weigh more...

Depending on materials, methods and finish, the cost per unit has been reported between $600-$800 each but those are old numbers.  It might well be more now.

These compare favorably with Speakers You've Heard Of
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Oskar Rei on December 16, 2010, 07:04:59 am
I'll try to answer questions Tim McCulloch hasn't. Smile

1) For me it took about 3 days to build the first, but it's possible to build approx. 1 in a day, when using right equipment and cutting pieces out for many subs once. The measuring and preparations for cutting takes most of the time, because every mm is cautious.
So for me 3 days to finish the box without cutting the metal access panels and paintwork.

3) From hard plywood, i got my box weighting 280lbs, considering access panels and drivers weight 10kg each. But it's possible to make it a lot lighter. I didn't also cut away the excess material from the back side.

2) Actually there are several LABhorn designs with slight modifications, but the best is still thought to be the first one, which blueprints are here in prosoundweb site. Also there are half labsubs, which use only one driver and maybe are more user friendly in smaller applications.

Cheers,
Oskar
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Randy Freemire on December 16, 2010, 11:49:00 am
Tim and Oscar,
Thanks for the replies!

Wow, that's quite the box!  As I've been doing research for getting monitors/foh for a band, a top concern has been size and weight.  At 230-280#, and with that form factor, that's an awkward beast! Obviously casters are part of the design, and a buddy is required.  
I'd be curious to know what the lightest version of this sub is (without compromising performance)?  
So a half sub is the same size box but with fewer drivers?

So,I guess the question here would be, in order to achieve the tight, loud, low low bass this box is capable of, what comparable products are out on the market?  
Does it require something massive like this to achieve such remarkable results?  

The ones I'm familiar with (from forums) are much smaller units like the JBL PRX 618xlf, various Yorkville subs (most around 100#s and less than $1,000), and those obviously don't go near the sub 30hz range.  I saw a post comparing it to a massive eaw box (KF940), and that sucker costs over 2 HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!  That boggles my mind.  
But Tim said it out performs subs costing 3x's as much, so say commercially available subs in the $2,500-$3,000 range, right?

And what kind of spl at different frequencies are achieved?  I'm a little confused on this as sometime people talk about full space and half space measurements, not sure what they mean.

As far as building it, it looks pretty tricky.  I checked out various build photos, and there's lots of curves and strange clamping angles.  I guess it's one of those things that looks intimidating, but once you've actually done one it's not so bad.
So Oscar, when you say every mm is cautious, do you mean that in order to get all these strange angles to line up, you've got to be super precise?  

So, if this is a passive box with speakers, nothing else, what kind of wattage does it take to get the full sound out of this sub?  
Are there specific amp models that have found favor for this sub?
And the DSP?
That must be on hellofa 12" speaker to perform like that- but 2 are used, right?
Is this design/speakers efficient compared to other subs in this league (which of course becomes an issue when blowing fuses and paying the electric bill for a show).
Tim, when you say $800, that's just for the finished box; with an amp and dsp I imagine the figure is closer to $1,500?

Thanks for the replies!!!  A sticky with these kinds of questions answered would be most appreciated for new folks like me!

Randy

Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Jeff Bailie on December 16, 2010, 11:52:24 am
Hi Randy..

I hung out and read this forum from end to end for about a year before I decided to go for it.

I have 12 Labhorns now. They averaged about $1000 each to build.

When I started I had never used a table saw before. The first 6 took me almost 2 months to build, and I worked 8 hour days.  Shocked

I know there are a lot of choices out there. I know there are cabinets that go lower, and louder. You can find cabinets that use 4 times as much power. And you can defiantly find lighter cabinets to drag around. But in my experience, I have never listened to a better sounding Bass Cabinet.  It has very low harmonic distortion. And it's also a long horn length.

I suggest the same as Tim.  Start searching around. The more you read the more you will like the Labhorn...


 
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Oskar Rei on December 16, 2010, 06:08:25 pm
Randy Freemire wrote on Thu, 16 December 2010 18:49


I'd be curious to know what the lightest version of this sub is (without compromising performance)?  
So a half sub is the same size box but with fewer drivers? /.../
But Tim said it out performs subs costing 3x's as much, so say commercially available subs in the $2,500-$3,000 range, right?


Actually no, I'd say half Labhorn is totally different design, and obviously not that efficient as Danley original designed sub when using both in bigger stacks. If I remember correctly, there were topics about half Labhorns in this site, but I couldn't find them right now. But search and learn about different subs and find the best one that suites for you. LABhorn has quite good response, SPL and efficiency gets even better as using them in larger racks- consisting from 6-8 subs stacked together.

Quote:


And what kind of spl at different frequencies are achieved?  I'm a little confused on this as sometime people talk about full space and half space measurements, not sure what they mean.

The response around 30-40Hz builds up when using more than 2 subs, with 4 subs the response is quite flat from 30 to 80Hz. 4 LABhorn's stacked together could average about 138dB/1m.

As you know air travels more spherically away from speaker as the frequency lowers, think of omnidirectionality. As still horn speakers are more directional, speaker response gets better as it reflects from some kind of plane (etc floor, wall...). So full space should theoretically be place where air travels beyond meeting any obstacle and half space means speaker gets reflection from one plane, quarter space from two planes and so on. Reflection from one plane should add approx 3-6dB to response.

Quote:


So Oscar, when you say every mm is cautious, do you mean that in order to get all these strange angles to line up, you've got to be super precise?

As I looked into these different LABhorn designs some time ago, the compression chamber was modified vastly with newer modifications (for bigger compression ratio=louder) but actually the response didn't change so much as effecting the durability. What I thought before, is you should line up everything that it gets all air tight, especially the compression chamber. It is mentioned even at LAB12 driver specification sheets that any air leaks in Labhorn design could destroy the driver quite easily because of its very loose suspension. So it's not (only) about the measurements, but to get it all air tight and line up, but if you take your time building it, it isn't so complicated.

Quote:


So, if this is a passive box with speakers, nothing else, what kind of wattage does it take to get the full sound out of this sub?
Are there specific amp models that have found favor for this sub?
That must be on hellofa 12" speaker to perform like that- but 2 are used, right?

I'd use lower power and more cabinets, but i've read they could handle 1.6kW a cabinet with cooling plugs for long time term. So i 0.8-1kW should be fine, but someone should add their experiences and thoughts. One thing to consider when choosing amplifier is, it should have a little bigger tolerance on output impedance as the Lab cabinet’s is about 3.3 Ohm on lower points.
Yes, there are two drivers, but keep in mind, as one of the driver fails, the other will also in the matter of time. Because they both fire into thought to be high pressure cavity to limit the Xmech of the driver, the space of the chamber theoretically doubles as one driver fails.

I’ll add a link to LABhorn measurements done by Tamas Tako link.
And measurements done by me, but these creditability aren’t much because of homedone microphone calibration. link

Quote:


Is this design/speakers efficient compared to other subs in this league (which of course becomes an issue when blowing fuses and paying the electric bill for a show).

The response is quite fair and gets better when adding more of these cabinets. 12pi is undoubtedly better design for PA but I don't know about getting drawings from the author Wayne Parham. The 12pi uses same LAB12 drivers and has better results. You should find these subs comparisons by searching Prosound Shootout.

I’ll add that, I would definitely go with LABhorns or 12pi’s. Smile

Cheers,
Oskar
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Brandon G Romanowski on December 16, 2010, 10:05:36 pm
I agree a singular, entire project page with specs etc.  would make things clearer.
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Chris Jensen on December 16, 2010, 11:00:40 pm
Randy,

I'm almost sure that 90% of your questions would be answered on the page 24 or 25 of the posts.  This project is about way more then a good sub.  There is so much information from some great minds that has been compiled over the years on here.  Simply adding a "sticky" page would allow you to miss so much about these things.  There is no simple answer to building these.  You need to understand the evolution.  The reason why is there is almost zero consistency from build to build.  When you buy a box it is made the same way with a quality control.  You may blow up your cabs and by not doing the reading you won't have any idea why.  There have been many over the years that ask the same questions over and over, my favorite is I keep blowing drivers with putting low power into them.  It almost always ends up the chambers aren't sealed.  There are questions about epoxy vs glue, paint vs line-x, handles and wheels, the list goes on.  The only way you will answer these questions are to read other peoples answers.  Think of the entire sub section as a massive sticky for all the talk on the Internet for the LAB.

I know that isn't what you want to hear, but it took me almost 6 months of reading before I got stared.  Almost every question I had was answered by someone else prior to me even making sawdust.  I have been lurking on this board for about 6 years and the thing that Labsters hate the most is answering the same questions.  I mean they hate it.  One of my favorite things is to look at topics and see something like "I need a speaker system, it will be for reproducing audio.  What should I get"  and I know the first post under it will be Ivan grilling the hell out of them because they have no idea what they want, and there is no answer for them.  People on here are more then happy to help provided you are will to seek out the info it it exists already. Unfortunately you missed the evolution of this project and no one is really interested in hashing it all out aging, so you need to catch up and you will be shocked by how much info there is that a sticky would never give you.  

Ok now that my rant is over.  You need to look at the impedance chart and understand it.  It goes to 27 hz and should be passed at 80 or so.  It will handle a ton of power if needed and run correctly, there are numerous threads about amp combos.  4 or more is almost necessary as one cab is 1/12 of the horn mouth it makes.  You can corner load a single can and it will help a lot.  The plywood will be expensive don't skimp out.  13ply 18mm birch.  The next question you have will be the plans are only in inches how do I use 18mm that is all I can find.  There are threads about how to convert and how to align the module for the best possible outcome.  And lastly I can't stress enough, this is some wicked woodwork!  Remember 1 degree over 12" is almost 1/4", these cuts are to a fraction of a degree.  I don't mean to sound like a jerk or scare you away but I don't feel a simple sticky will really give you the scope of your undertaking.  I mean it seems to good to be true right?  A sub that will kick the big boys asses and cost well under a $1k.  The worst thing is that you start this and invest time and money into this and get stuck or worse discouraged if you are in over your head on skill level or time.  My dad is an extremely experienced wood worker/cabinet builder, I got in over my head and was lucky enough to get some help, so if you have a resource line it up first.  There will be nothing worse then several hundred dollars of plywood cut either wrong of unused.  

Again sorry for the rant, but this isn't another site with plans to build the next best sub that some guy built in his garage then posts the plans in one shot.  This thing has history, understand Servo-drive and SPL to know where the Lab comes from, and who is behind it.  Check out Peter Sylvester's site, there is some good info there too.   http://web.archive.org/web/20050209025454/home.comcast.net/~ labhorn/

Good Luck and happy sawdust making!
Chris Jensen
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Randy Freemire on December 17, 2010, 06:56:53 pm
Chris,
You make a compelling case and I agree with you- for the most part.  But I don't think this needs to be either/or.

For many of us this is part of a larger learning curve.  Whether you're taking the time to learn how subtractive synthesis works in your keyboard (and not being a preset player), learning the technical intricacies of doing live sound well, getting proficient with a DAW, or building your own tour quality sub for a decent price, etc. etc., it's all a matter of time, interest and application.  Usually lots and lots of time.  

As someone who has visited this site a number of times and not known what to make of it, I think a sticky would be well placed, and would serve better to lure more people who would potentially be interested but don't know what to make of it.  Sure, it proves you're among the dedicated and persistent if you take the time to put together all the pieces yourself, and I applaud those who do so, in any field.  But this is not a Disney ride where you pay your money and get a pre-determined thrill, it's backpacking, where you earn every bit of your enjoyment, and I don't see anything wrong with having a rangers station for orientation.

It wouldn't take much- give the general parameters of what is being aimed for here (like the questions I've already posed), and what the motivation is (how these subs compare to what you'd have to pay commercially for them, and how good they sound).  Then say something to the effect of what you said in your post, making clear that what has been explained is a little primer on why this sub project is an exciting possibility, and to get the real meat of the matter you need to read a lot more.

And then at the end of this overview (which wouldn't need to be much longer than the length of what you wrote) put in 10-20 links with good descriptives to various posts within this forum that are especially excellent for various reasons.  That, or use the space to the left of the topic listings to display a special icon that identifies those posts that the moderators or a polling of forum members think is crucial reading for beginners.  And having read some really good posts, the newcomer to this forum will be hooked even more.

So- is the goal to maintain purity, that those with enough desire will find their way through this forest of information?  Or is the goal to build a community of people excited about building their own diy sub?  Even if you enacted my suggestions, people are still going to have to read an enormous amount of postings and become somewhat obsessed with the project.  Personally, I believe that you'll attract a larger number of people who would get onboard by having a friendly ranger and more sign posts out.

For what its worth,
Randy
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 18, 2010, 11:00:55 am
I'll answer the last question... yes, to a certain degree it IS about "purity."  Perhaps it's the quaint, old-fashioned thrill of understanding the technical posts after reading a couple hundred of them.  Perhaps it's because knowledge is more than mere facts or statistics; wisdom is more than mere knowledge... and there is wisdom, some profound, that looses it's impact when not read in the context of perhaps dozens of posts.  As Chris points out, the journey *is* the destination.

This project was about the idea that a high-performance horn sub could be designed and built in a collaborative manner, with Danley doing the design & modeling and forum users making sawdust.  Tom speculated that this DIY project would embarrass more than 1 manufacturer, too.  Frankly it's not about driving page traffic or turning this particular forum into a generic DIY sub forum.  Those already exist.  It's about getting insight into horns & how they work, and the LABsub is the practical exam.

Someone with time could put together a page of links for the mods to sticky... but that someone has yet to appear.

Have fun, happy subbage.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!-Reference?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 18, 2010, 11:22:07 am
Randy Freemire wrote on Thu, 16 December 2010 11:49

 I saw a post comparing it to a massive eaw box (KF940), and that sucker costs over 2 HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!  That boggles my mind.  


I am quite sure they are no where near that expensive.

But as with many other numbers and specs that people throw around in audio-it is no doubt that some people believe that price (just like they believe a lot of the output SPL specs Rolling Eyes )-as apparently you do.

Where did you get the price from? Here say, or did somebody quote that price to you?  Did you see it online somewhere?

As the old saying goes-"You won't sell many at that price-but at that price-you don't have to" Laughing
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!-Reference?
Post by: Randy Freemire on December 18, 2010, 06:53:29 pm
Ivan wrote:
Where did you get the price from? Here say, or did somebody quote that price to you? Did you see it online somewhere?

I did a quick search when I saw the topic on comparing the EAW KF940, and the price I saw was astonomic, and it was used!  Looking again I'm not finding the link.  Didn't look that far, but I didn't see any pricing for the KF940.  Is that a discontinued unit?  What's its approximate price?

Tim,
Yes, I think I get it about the purity of the matter.  I would suggest however that having a super vibrant online community is a goal in and of itself.  I don't know how to evaluate this forum, I just know that when I went from Motifator.com (for my Motif XS7), it was absolutely great: tons of plugged in members, 2-3 active factory experts, a lot of very knowledeable users, etc.  When I sold the Motif and got the Korg M3, I like the board a lot more, but I miss the forum, it's nothing compared to Motifator.  There's very few super knowledeable users that frequent it, about 1/4 as much traffic/posts, and almost never any factory experts chiming in.  

So beyond the self-interest of having a vibrant online community, there's also the public service of being a gateway for a new relationship to tech.  Sure, some people have it in their blood as diy-ers, sure some are comfortable and more than willing to delve in to the minutia and relate to so much information, sure a lot of folks have been trained in it or grew up around it- but that's preaching to the choir when you say it's about purity.  

How about all the folks who are immersed in this technological culture of our times (and being a musician these days typically means a lot of technology) and have little to no hands on experience with it- but not necessarily from lack of aptitude and interest?  I would guess that's a whole lot more people than the ones who happen to know already they've got the aptitude and interest to tackle a big project like this.  And money matters- many folks would go to this much trouble to save money, and then come to find out it's an amazing project to be involved in 'cause the results are so outstanding- et voila, you've been a vital part in helping someone go from consumer to builder/diyourself.

I'm still of the opinion that a Sticky like I described, and other means of navigating this forum for beginners, would be a friendly welcome to the start of a considerable journey.
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!-Reference?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 18, 2010, 09:13:58 pm
Randy Freemire wrote on Sat, 18 December 2010 18:53

I'm still of the opinion that a Sticky like I described, and other means of navigating this forum for beginners, would be a friendly welcome to the start of a considerable journey.

Part of the whole "Educational" learning experience is not having the the answer handed to you, but all of the learning that you get while searching for the answer, not so much the answer itself.

Yes, you get the result real quick that way-but a lot of the whole DIY experience is the knowledge (good and bad) that you get along the way TO the answer.
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!-Reference?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 19, 2010, 10:11:54 am
Ivan Beaver wrote on Sat, 18 December 2010 20:13

Randy Freemire wrote on Sat, 18 December 2010 18:53

I'm still of the opinion that a Sticky like I described, and other means of navigating this forum for beginners, would be a friendly welcome to the start of a considerable journey.

Part of the whole "Educational" learning experience is not having the the answer handed to you, but all of the learning that you get while searching for the answer, not so much the answer itself.

Yes, you get the result real quick that way-but a lot of the whole DIY experience is the knowledge (good and bad) that you get along the way TO the answer.


That's pretty much what I said, but in fewer words.  Thanks, Ivan.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!-Reference?
Post by: Jeff Bailie on December 20, 2010, 03:35:20 am
I would say that we do have a super vibrant, and very intelligent community here on PSW.  The most experienced people in the industry are on here. And the folks who design and manufacture the products they use are right here also.

They are so intelligent that they prescribed reading the entire Lab Subwoofer forum. They do this because this is what it takes to build the Cabinet.

What I enjoy most about this project is that you get to be a scientist too. You have to chance to build it the way you think is best. You have the facts from the creators. The opinions of the other DIY folks and the opinions from the audio pros.

Have any of your questions about the Labhorn gone unanswered?
I doubt it.

These people here on PSW are punctual too. If I need info about anything at all, I can get it here quickly. There are people sitting at there computers right now wishing you would ask them something technical. Just sitting there.. Ready to slap you with an equation.

No need for a sticky. It would just tell you to read all this info, and don't cut your fingers off.

   
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Joe Breher on December 21, 2010, 02:28:32 am
Hopefully, my recent experience will throw more light than heat onto the matter.

I have recently become re-interested in the LabSub. Some two or three years ago, I was very interested, but recognized that my biz could not at that time support such an investment.

However, it is looking as if this is the year for the sub upgrade.

Accordingly, I was prompted (by some external factors that may become clear within the next week or two) to reacquaint myself with the knowledge herein.

Accordingly, over the last two weeks or so, I have read every thread on this board that looked to be LabSub-oriented. All 25 pages of thread headers.

There are a lot of interesting nuggets buried throughout. However, there is also an overwhelming redundancy.

Even after all that, many threads make references to early discussions that no longer exist. These would be discussions documenting the evolution of the requirements specification, early design parameters, etc. I assume they must have gotten lost in some site re-org. I'm sure they exist somewhere, but it ain't in the LabSub forum.

Soo....

If anyone would take the time to index the *primary* content, and make the index a sticky, I think it would be beneficial.

Further, if anyone knows where the early discussions are archived, at least a link to that should be a sticky.

ETA: Thanks for the " http://web.archive.org/web/20050209025454/home.comcast.net/~ labhorn/" link. I'd seen references to the comcast.net/~labhorn site, but that is no longer available, and I didn't know to properly dereference it in the waybackmachine. The link to the waybackmachine copy of it is another thing that belongs in a sticky.
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 21, 2010, 09:31:19 am
That in short is the story of this entire website..

Since you just did the leg work I nominate you to do the index, I'm sure we can get it made a sticky, by popular acclaim.

The problem is finding the "someone" to do the actual work to organize all the info here into a useful index of links.

JR
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!-Reference?
Post by: Jeff Babcock on December 21, 2010, 12:58:06 pm
Randy Freemire wrote on Sat, 18 December 2010 18:53

Ivan wrote:
Where did you get the price from? Here say, or did somebody quote that price to you? Did you see it online somewhere?

I did a quick search when I saw the topic on comparing the EAW KF940, and the price I saw was astonomic, and it was used!  Looking again I'm not finding the link.  Didn't look that far, but I didn't see any pricing for the KF940.  Is that a discontinued unit?  What's its approximate price?




I think MSRP is somewhere north of 3K.  Certainly not hundreds of thousands of dollars..... LOL

You probably saw an ad for a large turnkey sound rig which may have included 940's.
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Chris Jensen on December 22, 2010, 01:43:47 am
I think JR has said it best.  All I typed before would be summed up best in this post.  I know the answers cuz I read it.  I don't feel like making a sticky.  A sticky won't be good enough because then PMs will go to that person asking specific questions.  I wouldn't even dare undertake such as task because it will never be good enough for everyone and someone will always complain.  If someone else wanted to, go right ahead.  Now here is the best part...  I bet one could read all 25 pages of the board much quicker then assembling a sticky of decent quality.  So I purpose this...

At the top of the LSP documentation page a few lines that read:
80hz and under.
SPL of properly built LAB see graph lower on page.
Impedance of properly build LAB see graph lower on page.
Weight of properly built LAB 240lbs +.
1 cab won't do much unless corner loaded, need at least 4
Cab is 1/12 of horn mouth, which is 27hz.
Cost of drives see links below.
Input power see "insert message thread here" or more then 1 watt less then 4000w.
Cost of plywood?  Where do you live, call a shop.  Probably more then you think it should cost.
How long will it take to build?  A lot of time!  Are you a hobbyist? A pro?  You will know once you have finished.  
There is no Version 1 of the driver, only Version 2 as 1 was a prototype.  Version 3 was a redesign of the cab for a living room.  

Funny, I think I just made a sticky!  But as I said no one will actually be happy with that.  All that info was gained from the first few posts and the LSP document page.

Have fun with my post please and don't be mad!Wink

Chris Jensen
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney) on December 22, 2010, 09:05:29 am
1. Approximately how long it would take for someone with moderate woodworking skills to make one of these boxes.  How about the second one?

The first 2 labs I built took me a week. Half of that was spent setting up jigs so I could build more later.


2. Is there just one or are there several sizes (they seem huge from what i've seen).  What do they weigh?  What does it take to man handle them?

I'd recommend building the basic PSW version.. There is much work leading to this design.. all other "Variations" were for the most part single person creations.

3. What's the approximate cost for wood, speakers, etc.

$500 10 years ago

4. What do they compare to?

There are not many pro touring subs out there that sound as "hifi" as these. Danleys of course.. but I would digress that not to many tours are carrying those :/  And they can take a beating..

5. Is anyone making parts (such as cutting out all the pieces that you then assemble and glue)?

You can hire a CAD saw to cut for you.. but that takes all the fun out of the project!

6. What amplifiers and DSP are used?

I like QSC + Powersoft (you can read about 345431553 articles titled "whats the best amp for a lab")


I don't know of an EAW sub that will compare to these..  Smile
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Gary Perrett on December 22, 2010, 01:51:36 pm
I've built more than a dozen... the first took 2 days and then I think we built 6 in 2 days (all the jigs were already made by then, and you'll want jigs, otherwise you'll tear your hair out)

determine how many you want to build and cut all the parts out at the same time if possible.

I think someone posted a price north of $5000 for the 940's back then?

The thing that really still satisfies me is the look on peoples face when things rain down off the walls and ceiling when those things get going...I can't tell you th number of times band guys, business owners and other sound companies come up with total disbelief of the low end.. and want to know how THEY can get some of those!

G

Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Randy Freemire on December 22, 2010, 03:26:47 pm
Chris Jensen wrote:
A sticky won't be good enough because then PMs will go to that person asking specific questions. I wouldn't even dare undertake such as task because it will never be good enough for everyone and someone will always complain.At the top of the LSP documentation page a few lines that read:80hz and under.SPL of properly built LAB see graph lower on page.Impedance of properly build LAB see graph lower on page.Weight of properly built LAB 240lbs +.1 cab won't do much unless corner loaded, need at least 4Cab is 1/12 of horn mouth, which is 27hz.Cost of drives see links below.Input power see "insert message thread here" or more then 1 watt less then 4000w.Cost of plywood? Where do you live, call a shop. Probably more then you think it should cost.How long will it take to build? A lot of time! Are you a hobbyist? A pro? You will know once you have finished. There is no Version 1 of the driver, only Version 2 as 1 was a prototype. Version 3 was a redesign of the cab for a living room.


The sticky I had in mind wouldn’t need to be so technical.  It’s not about spelling out all the details, it’s giving an orientation to answer the question, “Why would I go to all this trouble?”.  And there wouldn’t have to be a specific author, a Sticky is oftentimes anonymous or done by the moderator with the understanding that its part of the orientation to a forum.

At the first level of engagement or welcoming to such a big project, the Sticky could answer simple questions like the below in a few words, and then having various links to follow:

? How much is this going to cost?   (links to various posts that has different peoples ideas; so far I’ve heard from $500 to $1,000 for wood and speakers, and no dollar figures on amps, new or used)
? How long is this going to take? (this varies extremely from a few days to weeks; once again links to give an idea of different levels of experience with woodworking)
? What does it compare to? (more links of various reviews, shootouts, etc.)
? Is one enough?  How does their use compare to other subs (Seeing so many people say that multiple stacked units are the best way to go, I’m unclear on that myself; of course depending on the room, spl and music, multiple subs are needed, but once again, no perspective here).
? Weight?  Dimensions?  Schleppability?
? Etc.

By the time person has absorbed this info and followed those links, they’re probably getting pretty involved already. Answering the question simply in the sticky but then saying, “for a more complete idea read these links”, gets the ball rolling, with a continual reminder that for best results the entire site needs to be read.


Gary Perrett wrote:
I've built more than a dozen... the first took 2 days and then I think we built 6 in 2 days (all the jigs were already made by then, and you'll want jigs, otherwise you'll tear your hair out.Determine how many you want to build and cut all the parts out at the same time if possible.  I think someone posted a price north of $5000 for the 940's back then?The thing that really still satisfies me is the look on peoples face when things rain down off the walls and ceiling when those things get going...I can't tell you the number of times band guys, business owners and other sound companies come up with total disbelief of the low end.. and want to know how THEY can get some of those!G


Exactly!  This would be a fantastic post to link to in the welcoming Sticky- “The thing that really still satisfies me is the look on peoples face when things rain down off the walls and ceiling when those things get going...I can't tell you the number of times band guys, business owners and other sound companies come up with total disbelief of the low end.. and want to know how THEY can get some of those!”  

Yes indeed!

Gary- it sounds like you’re pretty experienced as a woodworker (based on your completion times), and that there were at least 2 of you- is this the kind of job that it really helps to have a second pair of hands on board?  What kind of forum reading did it take before you were motivated and confident to begin?  Knowing what you know now, what suggestions do you have for a welcoming Sticky for newcomers?
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Randy Freemire on December 22, 2010, 03:31:51 pm
Ivan Beaver wrote:
Part of the whole "Educational" learning experience is not having the the answer handed to you, but all of the learning that you get while searching for the answer, not so much the answer itself.Yes, you get the result real quick that way-but a lot of the whole DIY experience is the knowledge (good and bad) that you get along the way TO the answer.


OK, valid point, but once again, this is presented as either/or by many of you.  What I’m proposing is a sticky that doesn’t hand all the info over- just enough to get a scope of the project and serve as a lure and a welcome.  

“Yes, you get the result real quick that way”.  No, not at all what I mean- it’s not like this sticky would be a substitute in any way for reading through the posts- it would just be a welcoming station with answers to some really basic, mostly non-technical questions (like, what does this compare to that’s commercially available and what’s the scope of this project in dollars/committment/skills) and some various links to start the process of understanding the whole project better.  

This project means many different things to different people.  For many it sounds like learning about subs and having the gumption to do so much research and hard work is a primary goal in and of itself.  I’m sure that’s true for many of you, but you didn’t necessarily start out like that.  

Sometimes a simple goal like, “Wow, I love bass and want pro-quality sound, but I can’t afford to spend $3-5,000 for a good sub”; sometimes that’s the gateway, and once people get involved in the project it appeals to other qualities in themselves, such as understanding how sound works and the design of loudspeakers.  

There’s a starting point in every unknown endeavor, and being so experienced with it you may have forgotten, for example, how you got interested enough in dancing to start taking lessons (your gateway in that case was probably the woman you wanted to impress), or in cars to start fixing your own (the gateway there was perhaps saving money as a teenager and finding out in the process your mechanical aptitude and how fun it was to have projects in common with your buds), etc., etc., etc.
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Randy Freemire on December 22, 2010, 03:37:56 pm
Jeff Kennedy wrote:
1. Approximately how long it would take for someone with moderate woodworking skills to make one of these boxes. How about the second one?The first 2 labs I built took me a week. Half of that was spent setting up jigs so I could build more later. 2. Is there just one or are there several sizes (they seem huge from what i've seen). What do they weigh? What does it take to man handle them?I'd recommend building the basic PSW version.. There is much work leading to this design.. all other "Variations" were for the most part single person creations.3. What's the approximate cost for wood, speakers, etc.$500 10 years ago4. What do they compare to?There are not many pro touring subs out there that sound as "hifi" as these. Danleys of course.. but I would digress that not to many tours are carrying those :/ And they can take a beating.. 5. Is anyone making parts (such as cutting out all the pieces that you then assemble and glue)?You can hire a CAD saw to cut for you.. but that takes all the fun out of the project!6. What amplifiers and DSP are used?I like QSC + Powersoft (you can read about 345431553 articles titled "whats the best amp for a lab")I don't know of an EAW sub that will compare to these..  

Jeff,
Thanks for the answers!  Just to be clear, it took a week to build your first 2 subs?  (As in, a week each or a week to build both).  Now that you’ve got jigs setup, what’s your turnaround time, and is this while building several at a time?  What’s your woodworking experience/level?


Jeff Bailie wrote:
I would say that we do have a super vibrant, and very intelligent community here on PSW. The most experienced people in the industry are on here. And the folks who design and manufacture the products they use are right here also.They are so intelligent that they prescribed reading the entire Lab Subwoofer forum. They do this because this is what it takes to build the Cabinet. What I enjoy most about this project is that you get to be a scientist too. You have to chance to build it the way you think is best. You have the facts from the creators. The opinions of the other DIY folks and the opinions from the audio pros. Have any of your questions about the Labhorn gone unanswered? I doubt it. These people here on PSW are punctual too. If I need info about anything at all, I can get it here quickly. There are people sitting at there computers right now wishing you would ask them something technical. Just sitting there.. Ready to slap you with an equation. No need for a sticky. It would just tell you to read all this info, and don't cut your fingers off.


That’s outstanding- so it would seem this is a plenty vibrant community already.  Given that, this forum doesn’t have a need per se at this time to keep itself vibrant (though I’m sure fresh blood is always needed).  The spirit of what I’m talking about is more in line with the boy scout motto: Do a good turn daily!  Yes, he and his friends know the joy of that self-sufficient trek into the wilderness, but they also are “Helpful, Friendly, Kind”. (Sorry!  Couldn’t help myself- this is funny for me ‘cause I grew up going to boyscouts, and much of my experience was not good).  

I digress- the point is, you make a good case for this already being an outstanding forum, so there’s not necessarily any internal need, so I’m appealing to the altruistic public service aspect of making the initial entry more accessible.


Joe Breher wrote:
Over the last two weeks or so, I have read every thread on this board that looked to be LabSub-oriented. All 25 pages of thread headers.There are a lot of interesting nuggets buried throughout. However, there is also an overwhelming redundancy.Even after all that, many threads make references to early discussions that no longer exist. These would be discussions documenting the evolution of the requirements specification, early design parameters, etc. I assume they must have gotten lost in some site re-org. I'm sure they exist somewhere, but it ain't in the LabSub forum.Soo....If anyone would take the time to index the *primary* content, and make the index a sticky, I think it would be beneficial.Further, if anyone knows where the early discussions are archived, at least a link to that should be a sticky.


This is beyond what I was talking about but sounds like a worthy project.  “Essential Reading” index would be a kind and useful compilation for sure!  Not sure why trudging through persistent redundancy makes anyone more worthy or better informed- esp. not with the overload of information that’s part of modern life!
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Chris Jensen on December 22, 2010, 04:49:57 pm
Something that is great about this project is that it isn't for everyone.  If you aren't willing to do the research it's not for you and that is fine.  "If you have to ask how much you can't afford it"  This rings very true in this project.  Fixing a car is a great example.  Do you look at the front of the book to get the instructions before you start?  Do you read the steps as you go?  No you read the section, understand it first, then you go to the car look at what you are going to do, re read the steps, reference all parts so you have the knowledge before you go.  There is a great post in the lounge right now about DIY gear.  Some guy wants to cover 2 baseball fields with diy gear.  Can it be done? Sure!  Can it be done well?  Sure!  Would anyone in their right mind do it who knew how to do it?  Not a chance!  The number one thing holding back the LAB is that it is DIY.  I have no intention to question anyones wood working skills, but how consistent are these things?  There is no quality control on them.  That isn't a bad thing in itself for a user, but this thing is all about the design.  People put the best ideas on paper all day long with no ability to duplicate the plan.  Yes many of these subs are impeccably built.  I'd say mine is, but the important thing to remember is that is my opinion and my word saying that.  As I said no offense to anyone that has built these but try selling your home brew system to a group making money.  You want to rent or use a system to someone on your word.  There is no proof.  Now my point, the more of these out there but less people fully obsessed with what they are doing starts to ruin the name.  It's a harsh reality but one thing about these is that they were built by a manufacturer of sorts.  Mr Danley I'm sure used SPL and Servo Drive to do this.  There are a ton of DIY subs on the web but none are built with any sort of merit.  That doesn't mean they aren't good they just have no guarantee that they are what they are.  Those KF940 will be perfect every time you use them, LABs could vary from build to build.  If a bunch of hacks start making these not to spec without the understanding of what they are doing the LAB name will be tarnished, all people will know is that those things were crap when that guy brought them in before.  I just recently had to convince someone I was working for that color blasts were a great fixture.  They didn't want anything to do with renting them because they had such a bad experience with them.  I finally got to the bottom of what happened, some one used them in an awful way and ruined the clients perception of what could be done with the tool.  That is like some one saying build this for me but don't use dewalt tools because the last guy did a bad job with those, they suck.  The quality and name is protected by the knowledge gained.  Think like a doctor, there is no sticky on surgery.  I know it's nowhere near the same level but it has the same spirit in it.  

Randy, To address your questions you have from the people that provided info.  You mention how many might be needed.  You have to understand horn theory at a basic level.  One corner loaded vs 4, 6, 8, 12.  Why do people want multiples, there is no global answer.  You have to decide for yourself.  How much?  I have Phillips plywood here in the San Fernando Valley, a HUGE plywood distributor, how about someone in the middle of America with out someone of note to get wood from.  My sheets in '04 were maybe $40, I really don't remember.  But I remember the local smaller company wanted like 60 a sheet, it was way way more.  I also bought my drives form Orange County speaker with a discount, where if you need to do part express with shipping somewhere, that might cost a lot.  Handles, corners, jack plates, feet, wheels, grills, paint, Line-X.  Yes 500 to 1000 maybe more.  Where do you stop.  You come rolling into a gig with some shitty painted cabs with no handles, wood fill over screw holes, filled gaps, you name it.  I don't want the name tarnished by some person who didn't do the research.  Now I get the fact you want a real quick summary.  It has been given, price, weight, size, how long to build, power, how many.  The first answer was read and you will find out.  This board is where the pros are, the best in the industry in this country.  There are so many posts where people ask a question and don't like the answer so they ask again, or make a case against the answer they are given.  There was a post on this forum a few weeks ago about guy that wanted to build subs asked questions and was told an very sound smart business like answer.  After a go around a few times he came back later and said thank you and he was getting help from another forum.  He didn't like the answer and went somewhere else and probably heard what he wanted to hear so he was content.  As I said before one will be burned is they aren't prepared to start this.  You car analogy was the best one.  If you start fixing the car you better have all the parts in front of you because it's a long walk to the store for a part or a tool you didn't realize you needed.  Nothing like taking apart the car you need to go get something, right?  But all the answers are in that book and you won't know if it is worth it until you read the whole thing to understand it fully.

A lot of these guys answering have worked for years in audio with great knowledge about cabinet design and construction.  Many come from a day when DIY was standard as manufacturers weren't up to the task of making things well.  Look at the largest touring companies, they made their pa's way back when.  Many of the answers are coming from people that had to make cabs, today you can buy things for so cheep that this has to be a learning process.  Again I understand that all you want is a summary but the summary exists, the LSP documentation page, the sticky that is already there.  Read the graphs, have you ever seen on JBL or EAW sites a list of equipment that their products is better then or comparable too?  No you need to be able to interpret that from the info they give you.  Treat this page as the manufacturers info page.  This is a pro project not a typical DIY.  If one can't figure out the size from the plans how do they expect to be able to follow the plans.  When looking at them do you say I can do that or are you lost at what to say first?  Maybe like man this looks tricky, that is very telling of how long it will take YOU(any person at a given skill level) to build.  How loud do YOU need it?  How do YOU need to transport it.  

PLEASE see this as constructive to the argument!  I only want the best of LABS out there as to represent my work.  If you want something else that anyone can make go to the dj forums and make some of their stuff.  Great designs sure but what is the build quality form unit to unit?  I don't want that in question with my Lab is possible.  Please become one of the proud owners with not only the item but the knowledge so that you can spread the word with the responsibility I think that comes with having this AMAZING unit in our grasps.  I know I sound way to passionate but that is how I see it.  

As a little aside I have always thought it is very comical, the person who wants to build 8 labs to save money on buying thousands of dollars of subs but can afford the help to move them and load them in.  The weight and size of these really means they come with a crew that needs to support them.  Think of the floor space you need to store these vs something you can stack on your own, I would think the rent would off set the money savings very quickly to just store them, not to mention the guy you bring along to pick them up.

Filled with too much LAB Sub Passion for his own good!
Chris Jensen
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Chris Jensen on December 22, 2010, 04:58:44 pm
I meant to post this but forgot.  Many have probably seen it but this is perfect example of DIY.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB1NUgNPsp0  They might have rocked, but where is the guarantee.

Chris
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Randy Freemire on December 24, 2010, 09:21:06 pm
So.... I had my say, a few other people did as well, so that's that.  Good to see enthusiastic diy'ers chasing a worthy project and supporting one another.  

I just wish these subs weren't so big and heavy!  But i suppose that's the key to their outstanding performance.  For my needs at this time I'd be more interested in subs under a hundred pounds with a smaller footprint.

PS Hmmm.... don't know why, but on my computer, on this second page of posts, the text doesn't wrap normally, goes 3-4 times further than it should (requiring left to right scrolling).
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 24, 2010, 09:49:44 pm
Randy Freemire wrote on Fri, 24 December 2010 20:21

So.... I had my say, a few other people did as well, so that's that.  Good to see enthusiastic diy'ers chasing a worthy project and supporting one another.  

I just wish these subs weren't so big and heavy!  But i suppose that's the key to their outstanding performance.  For my needs at this time I'd be more interested in subs under a hundred pounds with a smaller footprint.

PS Hmmm.... don't know why, but on my computer, on this second page of posts, the text doesn't wrap normally, goes 3-4 times further than it should (requiring left to right scrolling).


That's because you used the "code" format tool rather than the "quote" tool.  Use the "quote" radio button, next to the "reply" button.
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Randy Freemire on December 24, 2010, 10:41:32 pm
Quote:

PS Hmmm.... don't know why, but on my computer, on this second page of posts, the text doesn't wrap normally, goes 3-4 times further than it should (requiring left to right scrolling).

That's because you used the "code" format tool rather than the "quote" tool.  Use the "quote" radio button, next to the "reply" button.


OK- I'm used to having the quote option available as part of formatting the page, like making something bold; it certainly makes it easier if you're quoting from multiple posts, or from multiple places within a post, though the html is simple enough.  I tried to go back and fix it but it looks like there's a limited edit window available.
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 25, 2010, 01:32:38 am
Authors may edit posts for 24 hours, after that the post is closed.
Title: Re: Make a sticky, please!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 25, 2010, 03:41:47 pm
Randy Freemire wrote on Fri, 24 December 2010 21:21

I just wish these subs weren't so big and heavy!  But i suppose that's the key to their outstanding performance.  For my needs at this time I'd be more interested in subs under a hundred pounds with a smaller footprint.

.

Everything is a trade off.  You could make them a lot lighter.

You could make them out of carbon fiber.  So as long as your pocket book holds up. Rolling Eyes

You can make smaller subs that are lighter and handle more power.  But they will not get as loud (due to the horn loading the Lab Sub offers). It kinda depends on what is more important.

Different people have different needs.

Something has to "give" somewhere.