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Title: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on November 20, 2010, 12:54:20 pm
Has anyone seen this yet?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X32.aspx

Its price range would put it in competition with the O1V96 and Presonus offerings. But, it has some pretty good stuff to put it more in the league of the Yammy LS9:



32-Channel 16-Bus Digital Total Recall Live/Recording Mixing Console
•Total recall
•32 channels with inserts
•16 mix busses with inserts
•6 aux sends and returns
•8 stereo FX returns
•6 matrix mixers with inserts
•6 mute groups
•8 DCA groups
•Full-recording / multi-channel networking via FW/USB expansion cards*
•48-channel "digital snake" via ultra-low latency AES-50 ports*
•Fully programmable, high-end mic preamps
•25 low-noise 100mm motorized faders
•Super-easy user-interface with direct access
•No confusing menus
•High-resolution 7" colour TFT display
•Individual LCD displays per channel, DCA and Bus
•Full dynamics and EQ per channel, busses and matrices
•Adjustable line-delays on all inputs and outputs
•Virtual FX rack with 8 FX slots
•Powerful scene management for shows
•On-board recorder for uncompressed WAV files on USB flash drive
•Remote editor software to control via USB or Ethernet
•Extensive channel strip controls with user-definable control sections
•Connections to BEHRINGER P-16 personal monitoring system
•AES/EBU stereo digital output and full MIDI implementation
•Super-compact and lightweight
•$2,500 USD**


Yeah, it might be easy to dismiss based on its nameplate (I've owned a DDX3216 for 7 years and love that mixer, BTW). But didn't Uli buy Midas/KlarkTeknik? Could this be a result of that marriage?

The introduction of the DDX3216 brought about the ADA8000. I wonder if this new mixer will also result in the release of other new goodies that have been as useful. The 48 channel digital snake option sounds interesting, as does the built-in and FW-based connectivity.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on November 20, 2010, 01:24:44 pm
I do not agree that a mixer with 6 AUX sends is remotely "in the league" of the LS9.  If it is possible to convert mix buses into more AUXes, especially with convenient stereo IEM panning and AFL, I might change my mind.  I guess we'll have to wait and see if the feature set evolves before product launch.

As it is currently being touted, I don't see it offering much that the O1V doesn't, except the possible digital snake, head amp recall, and presumably more on-board pre-amps and A/D/A.  Those features are not enough to sell me on a product that costs a similar amount to an established product with a "better brand."

$0.02.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on November 20, 2010, 01:49:21 pm
Jeff:

I agree the omni-outputs are low relative to an LS9-32 (and two fewer than on an LS916), but I would imagine there will be a simple work-around (e.g. via an ADA8K or the like). According to their page, there are 25 motorized faders, and 32 insert points with 16 bus inserts. This alone puts it way ahead of the 01V96. I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the "brand," but I think we'll have to see how this thing is laid out before just dismissing it off-hand. For example, it says it has "total recall." I could be wrong on this, but I believe this means the channel trims are also "full recall." This is supported by the following: "Fully programmable, high-end mic preamps." Now high-end is debatable, but fully programmable would imply recallable trim. This also would put this desk way ahead of the O1V96 and the Presonus units.

My own sense is that IF folks can get beyond the nameplate, this will offer some serious competition to other offerings in that price range. However, it's a BIG if. Their DDX3216 was/is a far more capable desk than the original O1V, but Behringer could not compete in that price range. We'll see how this one does.    
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Adrian Genovesio on November 20, 2010, 02:02:22 pm
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 13:24


As it is currently being touted, I don't see it offering much that the O1V doesn't, except the possible digital snake, head amp recall, and presumably more on-board pre-amps and A/D/A.  Those features are not enough to sell me on a product that costs a similar amount to an established product with a "better brand."

$0.02.


Realistically, What people are looking for in there small format digital mixers these days are those things that you specified, along with it sounding good of course, so I think you are just disproving your point.  I think that the people who can accept using a brand that has a bad rep, will find themselves never looking back for a second on there decision to buy the Behringer over the Yamaha.  This mixer will definitely be in competition with the 01V and studio live.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on November 20, 2010, 03:08:07 pm
Craig Walsh wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 09:54


Yeah, it might be easy to dismiss based on its nameplate


Yes it is.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Bob Kenton on November 20, 2010, 03:23:15 pm
Would it be any different if the mixer had a "Designed by Midas" label on it?
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Adrian Genovesio on November 20, 2010, 03:26:24 pm
Bob Kenton wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 15:23

Would it be any different if the mixer had a "Designed by Midas" label on it?

Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Ned Ward on November 20, 2010, 04:41:36 pm
it wouldn't until you looked on the back and saw "Built By Behringer" ... Laughing
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Steve Hurt on November 20, 2010, 06:52:19 pm
Things the Behringer has (supposedly), that the O1V96 does not, that interest me:

1) Total recall - recallable head amps
2) 25 motorized faders
3) Recording out for every channel via firewire
4) Digital snake

--------------------------------

On the other hand:
- The Behringer is vaporware currently.
- The Behringer is a Behringer and quality is NOT a given
- The Yamaha is a known - working - high quality - mixer - with a deep feature set

---------------------------------

Comes back to the same stuff that was said in the thread about the other digital mixer I'd read about.  

I know that this board isn't a LS9, M7, PM5D, etc.., but it sounds like it has a feature set that will sell units.  
I expect to see it on systems I mix on and am interested in knowing more.

---------------------------------

On a side note, I hope that this or one of the other new boards that are dropping will be what it takes to kick Yamaha's arse hard enough that they'll release a LS9-24 with an affordable digital snake.  Then I'll be happy........well..for a week or so!
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Moby (Mike Diack) on November 20, 2010, 07:16:50 pm
Tony "T" Tissot wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 09:08

Craig Walsh wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 09:54


Yeah, it might be easy to dismiss based on its nameplate


Yes it is.

I find it quite extraordinary how quickly folk are ready to condemn equipment sight unseen on the basis of brand alone. I dont own a lot of Behringer (a couple of ADA8ks and a DEQ2496) but it all works 100% perfectly. Most of my Yammy gear is fine, but a 1974 TX500 bike bought new warped heads faster than electric kool-aid so I'm not about to show unquestioning faith in that brand.
Let's wait and see.
M
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Brian Larson on November 20, 2010, 07:35:03 pm
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X32.aspx

I had never seen their website until now, even that's a ripoff from another company. (Apple)
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: A Thomas Lamb on November 20, 2010, 07:44:11 pm
They are doing the snake via aes50 so that's a piece of Midas(Sony) technology. The question becomes what's the dependability of Chinese knockoff Midas parts? Maybe not a problem. What will be funny though is I wonder what the behringef cost of a aes50 snake that will have to meet the same specs as it's Midas counterpart will cost?
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on November 20, 2010, 08:42:41 pm
Moby (Mike Diack) wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 16:16

Tony "T" Tissot wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 09:08

Craig Walsh wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 09:54


Yeah, it might be easy to dismiss based on its nameplate


Yes it is.

I find it quite extraordinary how quickly folk are ready to condemn equipment sight unseen on the basis of brand alone. I dont own a lot of Behringer (a couple of ADA8ks and a DEQ2496) but it all works 100% perfectly. Most of my Yammy gear is fine, but a 1974 TX500 bike bought new warped heads faster than electric kool-aid so I'm not about to show unquestioning faith in that brand.
Let's wait and see.
M

I don't condemn their equipment.

I condemn the company.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 20, 2010, 09:12:42 pm
+1
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Tim Padrick on November 20, 2010, 11:57:20 pm
Bob Kenton wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 14:23

Would it be any different if the mixer had a "Designed by Midas" label on it?


For all we know, the Pro series were designed by Behringer  Twisted Evil
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: A Thomas Lamb on November 21, 2010, 07:12:08 am
For all we know they might be putting a new paint job on a pro3!!
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Brad Weber on November 21, 2010, 10:21:59 am
Tony "T" Tissot wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 20:42

I don't condemn their equipment.

I condemn the company.

+2.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Bob Leonard on November 21, 2010, 10:26:20 am
And when it fails who services this boat anchor. Gorton's of Glouchester? People who purchase expensive digital hardware usually have a larger and more demanding clientel, and failure is not usually an option. However, just like anything else, we'll see what happens.

And +3
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Phil Ouellette on November 21, 2010, 11:39:26 am
Bob Leonard wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 10:26

And when it fails who services this boat anchor. Gorton's of Glouchester? People who purchase expensive digital hardware usually have a larger and more demanding clientel, and failure is not usually an option. However, just like anything else, we'll see what happens.

And +3


Well that was before the Behringer X32.  I wonder how long before there is a digital powered PA head. Now every garage band can have a digital console.

index.php/fa/33877/0/
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Ken Barlow on November 21, 2010, 02:22:01 pm
  This mixer confuses me a bit because I am not sure what market they are focusing on. The price point puts in the area of consoles such as 24 channel analog Allen & Heath, Mackie and Soundcraft options as well as the Presonus and Roland digitals. Targeting the digital console market for the average weekend warrior bands and local/small regional Sound Co's makes no sense to me as Yamaha, Roland and now Presonus has that pretty much wrapped up. A/V house's will most likely skip on this product because of the name on it. How many TT24's did Mackie sell before discontinuing that product? Lots of marketing and hype but didn't quite live up to expectations as I believe the X32 will do.
 Another question which will be answered soon will be how much the digital snake/add on expansion cards adds the cost. Also reliability comes into play as we all know about their track record. I will watching with some interest though as early adopters will eventually make their way to these forums for help with problems and will be promptly told ("you got what you paid for"). After all, this product will be manufactured in China as everything else with the Behringer name on it. I don't care if Midas or Aliens designed it.
 If this turns out to be a reliable and capable mixer, markets forces will drive the prices down for entry level digital consoles across the board which will be a good thing for end users with limited budgets wanting to get into the digital world and have more options.
 FWIW, I own a few analog Behringer products in a briefcase gig rack but I would never trust my show to one of their products should it fail. If a comp or gate goes south, It's not the end of the world. Putting all my eggs in the Behringer basket it too much of a leap of faith for me. I would bet most people will skip on this product and early adopters will have buyers remorse at some point.

My $0.02 plus tax and shipping
Ken
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on November 21, 2010, 03:45:29 pm
Craig Walsh wrote on Sat, 20 November 2010 12:49

I agree the omni-outputs are low relative to an LS9-32 (and two fewer than on an LS916), but I would imagine there will be a simple work-around (e.g. via an ADA8K or the like).

More D/A converters does not equal more AUX buses.  I do not understand why the unit is being advertised as having a fairly large number of mix buses but only 6 AUX buses.  IF the mix buses can be configured as additional AUXes, I could see this being a useful product; otherwise, not so much.

Head amp recall is great, but what are the most basic things you look at when deciding if a mixer is acceptable for your work?  Mine start it:
* does it have enough inputs?
* does it have enough AUX buses for my monitoring and FX needs?
* is the channel EQ good enough?
Then I move on to nice things.  The three above are essential, and if a mixer does not meet those criteria, it can't do the job.

6 AUXes is probably fine for a lot of bar bands.  It isn't competitive with other digital offerings in this price range.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on November 21, 2010, 05:46:40 pm
Jeff:

I agree that 6 aux buses would certainly limit this mixer. I very much doubt this will be the case. While the DDX3216 only has 4 multi-outs, it can be configured to send 8 auxes via ADAT->ADA8K. They mention something about interfacing with the Behringer P16 personal monitoring system, so maybe there is more to it than meets the eye. Right now the "P16" is also vapor-ware, but could be some sort of multi-channel monitoring system (or it could be an IEM system). As I mentioned, the DDX3216 brought about several accessories like the ADA8K that have been useful. This new mixer may also bring some other goodies with it.

But, I agree with your read of the spec list. Some of the features sound very interesting, but you must wonder why anyone would design a digital desk with so few aux buses, esp. in these days of stereo IEM acceptance.  
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Adam Whetham on November 21, 2010, 07:02:22 pm
No MIDI...
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Steve Hurt on November 21, 2010, 07:16:32 pm
Adam Whetham wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 19:02

No MIDI...


Huh?

From the hype page:

....AES/EBU stereo digital output and full MIDI implementation
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Adam Whetham on November 21, 2010, 07:18:02 pm
missed that... i didn't read the full line.  Laughing

Carry on.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Steve Tarak on November 21, 2010, 09:35:19 pm
"The X32 represents BEHRINGER's domination strategy in the digital mixing tournament of champions and we're confident that a checkmate isn't far behind."

I've owned Behringer gear. It has failed me, sounds like shit, and is a disappointment and waste of my money. If the strategy now is to dominate the digital market, well, it's about time they made some changes. As for me, I am, and will continue to be a huge skeptic of this inexpensive and unreliable copycat brand. That is a checkmate from my side of the board and it will take a hell of a rematch to convince me otherwise.

Steve
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Matt Errend on November 21, 2010, 10:58:16 pm
I am sure they will sell thousands to ignorant volunteer church audio "experts" and Guitar center shoppers.

Anyone with a clue will stay far far away.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on November 22, 2010, 03:06:17 am
Steve Tarak wrote on Mon, 22 November 2010 03:35

"The X32 represents BEHRINGER's domination strategy in the digital mixing tournament of champions and we're confident that a checkmate isn't far behind."

I've owned Behringer gear. It has failed me, sounds like shit, and is a disappointment and waste of my money. If the strategy now is to dominate the digital market, well, it's about time they made some changes. As for me, I am, and will continue to be a huge skeptic of this inexpensive and unreliable copycat brand. That is a checkmate from my side of the board and it will take a hell of a rematch to convince me otherwise.

Steve


I have owned Behringer crap and a few real gems.  While I don't condone their copycat practices, they might be on to a new path now.  They bought Midas fair-and-square, a company that obviously wouldn't have been for sale if their product was making money.  I for one can't waith to see how much of their new purchase made it's way into this product.

I say, give them a chance - if nothing else it will help keep their competitors on their toes!
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on November 22, 2010, 10:13:14 am
We'll see if this ever gets built.  

This is as vaporous as vaporware gets - just a napkin list of features everyone will want for a super cheap price with the goal of stalling sales of competitor products until they can figure out a way to build something.  Maybe they can execute, maybe they can't.

This won't be their first digital board - they had another one in the late 01v or early 01v96 timeframe.  I recall some reliability issues and suspect they didn't sell terribly many of them.

Behringer has historically been a "hardware" company - at least as much as copying everyone else's products makes you a hardware company.  While there may be a lot of hardware legos that can be assembled into a product with limited effort, a digital board also requires a lot of high-quality software.  This is neither easy or inexpensive, and there's no code to copy.  

Presonus has discovered just how hard the software can be to get right (and I believe they will succeed).  Like many others in this thread, I'll be trusting my gigs to 6th or 7th generation Yamaha digital products until other competitors' products get a little more baked.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Grant Conklin on November 22, 2010, 11:03:08 am
Now that the Music Group owns Behringer, Midas, and Klark Teknik, they need a new brand to fill the middle ground.  It will take 20 years or more for the majority of even semi-pros to take Behringer seriously.  If they want to make quality gear at a reasonable (higher than Behringer) price, they need to create or buy a new brand to market it with.

Grant  
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 02, 2010, 03:49:46 pm
Carlos wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 15:41

My Church own a Behringer SL3242FX-PRO for 5 years and it´s working like the firts day. Behringer are not the most high quality products but they sound better that mackies and yamahas mixer. People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better they are wrong.

index.php/fa/34018/0/
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Dick Rees on December 02, 2010, 04:11:13 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 14:49

Carlos wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 15:41

My Church own a Behringer SL3242FX-PRO for 5 years and it´s working like the firts day. Behringer are not the most high quality products but they sound better that mackies and yamahas mixer. People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better they are wrong.




OK, Bennett.  What have you done with Carlos?
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 02, 2010, 04:31:22 pm
I think Maj. Gen. Moderator axed him since he had but one post to his name and was already breaking all the rules, along with our patience.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Dick Rees on December 02, 2010, 04:40:54 pm
I thought perhaps "carlos" was to demolition derby as "torpedo los" was to U-boat movies.
Title: Message deletion
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 02, 2010, 05:05:34 pm
Dick Rees wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 16:11

Bennett Prescott wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 14:49

Carlos wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 15:41

My Church own a Behringer SL3242FX-PRO for 5 years and it´s working like the firts day. Behringer are not the most high quality products but they sound better that mackies and yamahas mixer. People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better they are wrong.




OK, Bennett.  What have you done with Carlos?



When someone posts without following the forum rules their post gets deleted, with a note that they can repost after they have complied with the rules.

Mac
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Lee Brenkman on December 02, 2010, 07:11:53 pm
Dick Rees wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 13:11


OK, Bennett.  What have you done with Carlos?



I think Bennett fed Carlos to Jeremy Clarkson  Laughing
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on December 03, 2010, 02:19:59 am
Lee Brenkman wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 01:11

Dick Rees wrote on Thu, 02 December 2010 13:11


OK, Bennett.  What have you done with Carlos?



I think Bennett fed Carlos to Jeremy Clarkson  Laughing


At least he heard something funny going down.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Carlos Jorge on December 03, 2010, 07:19:08 am


My Church own a Behringer SL3242FX-PRO for 5 years and it´s working like the firts day. Behringer are not the most high quality products but they sound better that mackies and yamahas mixer. People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better they are wrong.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 03, 2010, 09:36:31 am
Carlos Jorge wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 06:19



My Church own a Behringer SL3242FX-PRO for 5 years and it´s working like the firts day. Behringer are not the most high quality products but they sound better that mackies and yamahas mixer. People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better they are wrong.

Glad you're happy with it.

Generally speaking, people who haven't used a "very expensive mixer" are pretty much the only people who think that a "very expensive mixer" doesn't sound better/work better/do more than a "reasonably priced mixer".

It remains to be seen whether the new Behringer napkin idea ever gets turned into a product.  If it does, it may be the perfect upgrade for you.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Jeff Babcock on December 03, 2010, 11:18:54 am
Carlos Jorge wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 07:19



People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better they are wrong.


I'd be interested to know all of the "expensive mixers" you have personally mixed on to have come to this conclusion.

The difference in sound quality between low vs high end consoles is certainly not as significant as the difference between low vs high end speakers, but are you suggesting premium manufacturers would choose to use more expensive components when designing their consoles on a whim?

I suppose then you might also say that the Jensen transformer in my Radial JDI's are useless and Behringer's passive DI sounds just as good.  


Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Brian Gowing on December 03, 2010, 11:48:04 am
Quote:

I suppose then you might also say that the Jensen transformer in my Radial JDI's are useless and Behringer's passive DI sounds just as good.


That's because Behringer's uses Ginseng transformers!  Laughing

I keep trying to tell that to the churches I support. You can't compare equipment unless you've worked with them and know what you're trying to compare. While the Behringer "vaporware" page sounds interesting, I suspect it's going to be like everything else Behringer. It may work and look pretty but it wouldn't stand up to a side-by-side comparison to the quality brands.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: John H. O'Brien on December 03, 2010, 12:04:50 pm
Steve Tarak wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 21:35

"The X32 represents BEHRINGER's domination strategy in the digital mixing tournament of champions and we're confident that a checkmate isn't far behind."

I've owned Behringer gear. It has failed me, sounds like shit, and is a disappointment and waste of my money. If the strategy now is to dominate the digital market, well, it's about time they made some changes. As for me, I am, and will continue to be a huge skeptic of this inexpensive and unreliable copycat brand. That is a checkmate from my side of the board and it will take a hell of a rematch to convince me otherwise.

Steve





+1
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Matthew Haber on December 03, 2010, 01:02:51 pm
I think that many would agree that Behringer makes a couple of decent products for the low-middle end market and a lot of crap. I think the ADA8000 is actually a pretty decent product and does way more than anything anywhere near it in price. Sure it doesn't sound great and, while it is much more reliable than many Behringer products, it isn't the best in that regard but it is also less than 200 bucks. I will confess that I owned a Behringer MX3282a and, at the time, I thought it was decent. After about a year, I decided it would be more cost effective to buy an 01V96 than buy outboard for the Behringer. I would never go back and I don't think that anyone who has used a decent board would go back to a lousy one. Since then I have upgraded to a better Yamaha and no longer use any Behringer products. As a Behringer owner, I had no delusions that Behringer was anything but bottom tier gear, but I can sort of understand why someone who hasn't experienced a major equipment failure with Behringer gear and who hasn't been exposed to anything better could think it is as good.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Peter Etheredge on December 03, 2010, 01:27:01 pm
TJ (Tom) Cornish wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 08:36

Carlos Jorge wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 06:19



My Church own a Behringer SL3242FX-PRO for 5 years and it´s working like the firts day. Behringer are not the most high quality products but they sound better that mackies and yamahas mixer. People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better they are wrong.

Glad you're happy with it.

Generally speaking, people who haven't used a "very expensive mixer" are pretty much the only people who think that a "very expensive mixer" doesn't sound better/work better/do more than a "reasonably priced mixer".

It remains to be seen whether the new Behringer napkin idea ever gets turned into a product.  If it does, it may be the perfect upgrade for you.


+1

It's one thing to buy something Behringer and understand it's limitations.  Personally I've never had anything good happen with their mixers that I've encountered and I'd never own one myself, however, I do have a pair of ADA8000's to go with my 01v96 and they suit my needs great.  BUT I'm not going to go around claiming that they sound just as good as a $2000 unit - I use better consoles all the time and know that.  

I'm glad that you're happy with your boards.  Good for you.  However you're not going to make any friends by coming in here and spouting off uneducated stuff like that.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Carlos Jorge on December 03, 2010, 01:53:12 pm
"It's one thing to buy something Behringer and understand it's limitations. Personally I've never had anything good happen with their mixers that I've encountered and I'd never own one myself, however, I do have a pair of ADA8000's to go with my 01v96 and they suit my needs great. BUT I'm not going to go around claiming that they sound just as good as a $2000 unit - I use better consoles all the time and know that.

I'm glad that you're happy with your boards. Good for you. However you're not going to make any friends by coming in here and spouting off uneducated stuff like that."


Thank you for the message. You are very educated.

Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Ken Barlow on December 03, 2010, 05:21:01 pm
Carlos Jorge wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 07:19



My Church own a Behringer SL3242FX-PRO for 5 years and it´s working like the firts day. Behringer are not the most high quality products but they sound better that mackies and yamahas mixer. People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better they are wrong.


Holy crap! We wasted 7.5 grand on a LS9 when The Behringer SL3242FX-PRO could have done the job better! I have buyers remorse now! Mad  Embarassed  Evil or Very Mad
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Bob Charest on December 03, 2010, 08:35:14 pm
Carlos,

Education designations/assertions aside, mixers at certain price points reflect the time spent in design, the cost of better components, and a broader, more complete feature set. They last longer and give a better result during that time. I'm sure you would agree.

I've just placed an order for an LS9-32, and although for me (a small band-leader) the cost is significant, I would not have been able to overcome my personal experiences with Behringer products to move in their direction - even at a significantly lower price point... even if I could get the product now.

One more thing: I've learned more than I've contributed on this board though I've tried to contribute where it made sense. There are many here who know more than I ever will, and humility and a willingness to learn create a more receptive atmosphere than pronouncements of any kind... even if you really know your stuff. The BS filter here is set on high, and I'm really glad it is.

Give yourself a chance, there's much here to be had.

Best regards,
Bob Charest
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Charlie Zureki on December 03, 2010, 09:34:11 pm
Ken Barlow wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 16:21

Carlos Jorge wrote on Fri, 03 December 2010 07:19



My Church own a Behringer SL3242FX-PRO for 5 years and it´s working like the firts day. Behringer are not the most high quality products but they sound better that mackies and yamahas mixer. People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better they are wrong.


Holy crap! We wasted 7.5 grand on a LS9 when The Behringer SL3242FX-PRO could have done the job better! I have buyers remorse now! Mad  Embarassed  Evil or Very Mad



 Hello Ken,

 Yeah?  Well just wait until they come out with a line array ...you'll regret buying that expensive EV, JBL or d&B system... Laughing  Razz

  Hammer

ps. "People who think that a very expensive mixer sounds better"......HAVE EARS!  (there, I fixed it for him) Laughing
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Steve Sagerson on December 04, 2010, 09:36:40 am
I once bought a Behringer powered mixer for the practice room that lasted about 5 months before completely crapping out so I completely understand the attitude about Behringer.  That was the first and last Behringer product I ever bought.

I'm just posing a question here, but since Behringer does apparently have the ability to make an ok sounding mic pre (ADA8000) and they now own Midas, wouldn't they theoretically have the capability to design a properly functioning digital mixer if they really wanted to?  I'm mainly talking about the ability to create a properly functioning software.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Grant Conklin on December 04, 2010, 10:01:48 am
Steve Sagerson wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 08:36


I'm just posing a question here, but since Behringer does apparently have the ability to make an ok sounding mic pre (ADA8000) and they now own Midas, wouldn't they theoretically have the capability to design a properly functioning digital mixer if they really wanted to?  I'm mainly talking about the ability to create a properly functioning software.



Theoretically, yes.  That's why they need a mid priced brand to market it with.  Pro's justifiably don't trust Behringer, and probably never will.  

Grant
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Caleb Dick on December 04, 2010, 10:24:51 am
It depends on how much cross-pollenization is allowed between Midas and Behringer. So far I've been hearing that Midas brainpower will be designing Midas products, utilizing Behringer distribution efficiencies.  

I wouldn't be surprised to see a smaller, $25k Midas digital. I would be surprised, greatly, to see any $6k+ Behringer. Also not expecting much 'Midas inside' Behringer product, other than possibly on the marketing side.

It seems to me that Uli is going to attempt to keep the Midas nameplate from being Behringerized too badly.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Caleb Dick on December 04, 2010, 10:27:59 am
Behr-injured? Sad
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Ken Barlow on December 04, 2010, 10:36:44 am
Caleb Dick wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 10:24

It depends on how much cross-pollenization is allowed between Midas and Behringer. So far I've been hearing that Midas brainpower will be designing Midas products, utilizing Behringer distribution efficiencies.  

I wouldn't be surprised to see a smaller, $25k Midas digital. I would be surprised, greatly, to see any $6k+ Behringer. Also not expecting much 'Midas inside' Behringer product, other than possibly on the marketing side.

It seems to me that Uli is going to attempt to keep the Midas nameplate from being Behringerized too badly.


The Digico SD9 will be(I heard)in the sub $25k range so it only makes sense that Midas will follow suit to stay competitive. But like I said in an earlier post, If Behringer comes out with a
sub $10k digital, I don't care if aliens designed it, they will have a hard time selling to the pro market. It will still be manufactured in China.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Greg Cameron on December 04, 2010, 11:11:21 am
Ken Barlow wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 07:36

But like I said in an earlier post, If Behringer comes out with a sub $10k digital, I don't care if aliens designed it, they will have a hard time selling to the pro market. It will still be manufactured in China.


While I'm not a proponent of having things made in China, it's no longer a primary concern as far as quality. It's up to the manufacturer to choose good contractors and constantly perform QA on the products. Some very excellent quality product comes out of china. The Mac Pros I work on all day at the office, my laptop, my iPhone, etc. That's because Apple is on top of what's going on and won't allow complete crap to walk out the door of the contractors. There's no reason that decent pro audio gear can't be made there too. The problem is with who's doing the designing and calling the shots as far as assembly specs, not the location of the buildings they make the stuff. I guess what I'm saying is that it's not the country of manufacture that's the real issue anymore. Quality issues are really a company issue.

Greg
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 04, 2010, 11:38:19 am
Caleb Dick wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 09:24

It seems to me that Uli is going to attempt to keep the Midas nameplate from being Behringerized too badly.


I agree. You cannot find mention of Behringer anywhere on the Midas or K/T websites. It's clearly not Uli's intention to "Behringerize" either company. However, I think it's already evident if the feature list comes to fruition that this desk will have some "Midas Inside." The AES50 choice is interesting because AFAIK only three companies use this protocol, including K/T and Midas. I would be very surprised that some of the Midas software doesn't end up in this. Why not? They've already paid for the talent and engineering work.

It's also clear that the Music Group doesn't want to cannibalize from their own brands. As proven by many of the responses here, the professional audio folks are still going to be buying their Midas consoles and Midas won't have to worry too much about their segment. They are strictly aiming for the garage band/MI market, not the pro-audio market. And they do sell tons of stuff to this segment. This new mixer is really aimed at the small time bands, home studios, schools and small churches that don't want to hassle with a bunch of outboard gear.

It remains to be seen if they can command that sort of price for it. They didn't seem to be able to draw much attention to their first digital mixer (the DDX3216) until they had a fire sale on it. I would not have picked one up at the original price it was sold at (app. $1800). But when it was dropped to $600 in 2006, I found it hard to pass up a 32 channel 16 bus digital console with all the goodies (like 17 motorized faders) at that price, and it's served me well for garage band use since. (Though, I do admit that I cringe every time I flip the power switch that it will boot up!). Overall, that console sounds fine, but it's no XL8.
   
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Scott Helmke (Scodiddly) on December 04, 2010, 01:49:37 pm
Craig Walsh wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 10:38

However, I think it's already evident if the feature list comes to fruition that this desk will have some "Midas Inside." The AES50 choice is interesting because AFAIK only three companies use this protocol, including K/T and Midas. I would be very surprised that some of the Midas software doesn't end up in this. Why not? They've already paid for the talent and engineering work.


...and they did the Midas innards in Linux, and supposedly in a fairly modular fashion.  So it ought to be easy to use some of that stuff in other products, especially since they aren't stuck licensing a copy of Windows for each unit sold like Digico or Digidesign.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 04, 2010, 02:42:53 pm
Craig Walsh wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 11:38

It remains to be seen if they can command that sort of price for it. They didn't seem to be able to draw much attention to their first digital mixer (the DDX3216) until they had a fire sale on it. I would not have picked one up at the original price it was sold at (app. $1800). But when it was dropped to $600 in 2006, I found it hard to pass up a 32 channel 16 bus digital console with all the goodies (like 17 motorized faders) at that price, and it's served me well for garage band use since. (Though, I do admit that I cringe every time I flip the power switch that it will boot up!). Overall, that console sounds fine, but it's no XL8.
   


My only experience with the DDX3216 was for a live broadcast job I do every month. When the DDX came out the equipment vendor bought one since I had been arguing for a digital console (a DM1000). The console worked fine while we set everything up in the shop, and on the first day of load in. On day 2, 2 hours before a worldwide satellite test it failed to boot, the PS had gone bad. Good thing Dale Pro Audio was a 15 minute cab ride away and had a DM1000 in stock. I got the console, was able to program up our event, and went live on time. The gig now runs on 2 DM2000s and 1 DM1000.

Mac
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 04, 2010, 02:57:17 pm
Mac Kerr wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 13:42

[My only experience with the DDX3216 was for a live broadcast job I do every month. When the DDX came out the equipment vendor bought one since I had been arguing for a digital console (a DM1000). The console worked fine while we set everything up in the shop, and on the first day of load in. On day 2, 2 hours before a worldwide satellite test it fail to boot, the PS had gone bad. Good thing Dale Pro Audio was a 15 minute cab ride away and had a DM1000 in stock. I got the console, was able to program up our event, and went live on time. The gig now runs on 2 DM2000s and 1 DM1000.

Mac


Yep, that's apparently been the major issue with this desk, a faulty and complex power supply. Fortunately for me, I haven't encountered any problems like this yet with it or any other Behringer gear I have (e.g. DEQ and DCX2496 and ADA8K). When it does go, I'll probably pick up an O1V96 or the like though.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Smith on December 06, 2010, 08:22:09 pm
Ken Barlow wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 11:22

  Targeting the digital console market for the average weekend warrior bands and local/small regional Sound Co's makes no sense to me as Yamaha, Roland and now Presonus has that pretty much wrapped up.

Both the Yamaha and Presonus have definite limitations.  Does Roland have something in that market?  The M-300 is well above it, and the Edirol products are well below.  I think there is plenty of room for more players, and am anxious to see some.  In a few years I think (or at least hope) that market will be virtually entirely digital.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Smith on December 06, 2010, 09:25:45 pm
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 12:45

6 AUXes is probably fine for a lot of bar bands.  It isn't competitive with other digital offerings in this price range.

The StudioLive has 6, the Yamaha 8.  Is there something else in that range with more?
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Steve Sagerson on December 06, 2010, 10:07:26 pm
I'm in that weekend warrior / small sound range and the way I see it the ONLY digital mixers out there for me are the 01v96 or the Studiolive(s) and they are apples and oranges type of products.  It would be nice to see a third or fourth player come into the market that incorporates some of the best features of both mixers as well as other features that are popular in other slightly higher end digital mixers (LS9's & TT24).  Behringer may not be the company with the answer but I'm glad to see that some companies are headed in that direction.  I'm very interested to see what QSC comes up with next year.  For my sake I hope it's in the $2k - $3k range.

I can never hurt to have more options in the market.  We have all kinds of speakers to choose from in the weekend warrior range but just two digital mixers?  I look forward to having more choices.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 07, 2010, 12:32:12 pm
Craig Smith wrote on Mon, 06 December 2010 19:22

Both the Yamaha and Presonus have definite limitations.  Does Roland have something in that market?  The M-300 is well above it, and the Edirol products are well below.  I think there is plenty of room for more players, and am anxious to see some.  In a few years I think (or at least hope) that market will be virtually entirely digital.


Roland had an interesting idea with their VM series of mixers several years back. All of the I/O was handled in a special box that could sit at the stage, and the desk could be situated at the FOH position, all connected by a VM-LINK cable. I'm not sure why, but this mixer platform did not take hold (could be it was way before its time). Tascam also has current offerings that can be used for live work. The DM-3200 has a 32 channel 16 bus configuration that includes 16 pres and 16 aux returns, plus 8 aux sends. The street price on this is comparable to the O1V96, but the O1V96 seems to be much more favored in a live setting.

So there have been several mixer platforms that have come out in the last decade aimed at the ~2-3K market. Acceptance has been relatively slow in this segment, but this seems to be changing. In the MI market, consoles that can do double duty for live and recording work will win the day, esp. if they can be used as a control surface and offload some of the digital processing from the DAW as some of these platforms can do.

One thing that caught my eye was the following:

•Individual LCD displays per channel, DCA and Bus

It always seemed to me that this would be very useful to be able to label each channel this way so that you don't need to put down new input labels every time you switch a scene.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 07, 2010, 12:54:23 pm
I looked at the Roland VM-7200 years ago.  I think one of the major problems was the lack of processing power.  I remember it having only 4 "effects processors" (which you had to install expansion modules to get), and dynamics counted as an "effect". In other words, you could get verb, delay, and only two comps.

Very cool idea though, and not indordinately expensive.

I've really tried to like the Tascam stuff - it truly sucks for live use compared to Yamaha's offerings.

I'm still hoping for an 32X16 iLive-style split system with an LS9 size surface controlling a stage box for $5000.  That's my buy trigger - until then I'll be sticking to my 01v96s.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on December 07, 2010, 01:13:12 pm
Craig Smith wrote on Mon, 06 December 2010 21:25

Jeff Wheeler wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 12:45

6 AUXes is probably fine for a lot of bar bands.  It isn't competitive with other digital offerings in this price range.

The StudioLive has 6, the Yamaha 8.  Is there something else in that range with more?


The now discontinued Behringer DDX3216 had 8 aux busses.  Four were dedicated to internal FX but nothing stopped you from routing them to an output.  The board had only four aux outputs, but with the adat expander module and a ADA8000 you got more analog outs and they were on XLRs instead of TRS.

I still have my DDX3216 and for it's time and price, was probably the best thing going.  Many people suffered from power supply failures from what I can remember, but most of the time it had to do with over zealous casing that covered cooling vents or the opening for the internal fan.  Keep it cool and it will run forever.  

After a few years I had a small problem with mine in that the Channel #1 gain knob became intermittent.  It took a tumble in our truck and landed knob side down in a case.  Upon teardown and closer inspection the bottom of the gain pot had cracked.  After hunting around for a pot with the right taper I had done 2 resoldering jobs on that part of the board and after finally finding a pot with the correct taper, the last soldering job ruined a pad on the board.  Mind you, I think my soldering skills are above average (but I'm biased).  I just think three rounds of desoldering/soldering was too much for the wimpy PCB in there.  I was able to hack together a working solution with some 30ga wire and a few blobs of solder after lifting the pads up.

It's been working ever since though it hasn't seen much road use.  I use at home mostly and as a backup in emergencies.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 07, 2010, 02:04:38 pm
Ryan - I too have had good luck with my DDX3216. I'm almost thinking about picking up a cheap used one on eBay for parts. You are right about the DDX regarding aux outs. There are four multi-outs like the O1V96, and you can route a total of 8 auxes using the four multi-outs and 4 outs on an ADA8K or equivalent. When you do this, you lose the FX channels (I don't think this is the case for the O1V96, but I've never tried on that desk). Overall, I'm happy with that mixer and think it sounds quite good for the price, far better than most small mixers with limited outboard processing. There are some odd routing limitations and the lack of a laptop interface hobbles some of its usefulness. But, it's still been a great console for us. I love being able to show up at a gig and not have to fiddle much with the overall mix to get things sounding nice, since we'd already spent time during practices to get our scenes perfected.

Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Tom Duffy on December 07, 2010, 04:32:33 pm
Steve Sagerson wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 06:36

I'm just posing a question here, but since Behringer does apparently have the ability to make an ok sounding mic pre (ADA8000) ....


Behringer didn't really design the ADA8000 either, it uses the Wavefront ADC, DAC and ADAT chips designed by Keith Barr (RIP) using the recommended circuits from the datasheets.  Any "good sound" is 99% Keith's.

Tom.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Lee Brenkman on December 07, 2010, 04:46:16 pm
Tom Duffy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 13:32

Steve Sagerson wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 06:36

I'm just posing a question here, but since Behringer does apparently have the ability to make an ok sounding mic pre (ADA8000) ....


Behringer didn't really design the ADA8000 either, it uses the Wavefront ADC, DAC and ADAT chips designed by Keith Barr (RIP) using the recommended circuits from the datasheets.  Any "good sound" is 99% Keith's.

Tom.


I never, for a moment, doubted that the ADA8000 was developed using Behringer's 'copying machine' R&D methods.

It is however frustrating that no other manufacturer has produced a unit that includes both input and output ADAT connections with XLRs for the outputs.

My dream version of this, for O1v expansion would have both the input and output XLRs on the back panel and the input level LEDs and a trim pot that wasn't as flimsy on the front.  

It could be two rack spaces per 8 input/outputs, especially if it could be few inches less deep than the '8000'.

And yes, I WOULD pay more than $189 for it  Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on December 07, 2010, 05:07:00 pm
Lee Brenkman wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 16:46

Tom Duffy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 13:32

Steve Sagerson wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 06:36

I'm just posing a question here, but since Behringer does apparently have the ability to make an ok sounding mic pre (ADA8000) ....


Behringer didn't really design the ADA8000 either, it uses the Wavefront ADC, DAC and ADAT chips designed by Keith Barr (RIP) using the recommended circuits from the datasheets.  Any "good sound" is 99% Keith's.

Tom.


I never, for a moment, doubted that the ADA8000 was developed using Behringer's 'copying machine' R&D methods.


Tom, I thinkyour post is VERY misleading.  While the ADA8000 does use Alesis Semiconductor coverters and ADAT chips, they certianly did not steal the design from anyone.  The purchased some bulk parts and used them in their design just like any other electronics corporation would.

In many instances Behringer's practices have been dubious, but I think the ADA8000 stands out as one of there more respectable products.


Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Steve Sagerson on December 07, 2010, 05:11:35 pm
What I meant to say was since Behringer apparently has the ability to copy the plans from a guy who knows how to make an ok sounding mic pre....   Shocked
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 07, 2010, 06:26:13 pm
TJ (Tom) Cornish wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 11:54

I looked at the Roland VM-7200 years ago.  I think one of the major problems was the lack of processing power.  I remember it having only 4 "effects processors" (which you had to install expansion modules to get), and dynamics counted as an "effect". In other words, you could get verb, delay, and only two comps.

Very cool idea though, and not indordinately expensive.

I've really tried to like the Tascam stuff - it truly sucks for live use compared to Yamaha's offerings.



Tom - I had the same issues with the VM series. Plus, they were just starting to blow their stock on it when I started looking into it. Cool idea though.

What was your beef about the Tascam DM-3200? Based on specs, it looks like it could compete well with the O1V96. But, I've not had a chance to mix on one, so I'd appreciate your thoughts since at some point, I'll be in the market for another small format digital mixer. (Hopefully later rather than sooner!)
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Andy Peters on December 07, 2010, 07:03:08 pm
Ryan Lantzy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 15:07

Lee Brenkman wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 16:46

Tom Duffy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 13:32

Steve Sagerson wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 06:36

I'm just posing a question here, but since Behringer does apparently have the ability to make an ok sounding mic pre (ADA8000) ....


Behringer didn't really design the ADA8000 either, it uses the Wavefront ADC, DAC and ADAT chips designed by Keith Barr (RIP) using the recommended circuits from the datasheets.  Any "good sound" is 99% Keith's.

Tom.


I never, for a moment, doubted that the ADA8000 was developed using Behringer's 'copying machine' R&D methods.


Tom, I thinkyour post is VERY misleading.  While the ADA8000 does use Alesis Semiconductor coverters and ADAT chips, they certianly did not steal the design from anyone.  The purchased some bulk parts and used them in their design just like any other electronics corporation would.

In many instances Behringer's practices have been dubious, but I think the ADA8000 stands out as one of there more respectable products.


WHOA, both Ryan and Lee --

Tom is absolutely correct. He never implied that the design was "stolen."  He just pointed out something that's obvious to anyone "skilled in the art."

The ADA8000 design is essentially what's in the data sheets for the relevant Wavefront Semiconductor devices, which makes perfect sense, because there's maybe three or four different ways of using the parts.  Behringer just added a simple word-clock PLL based on a 4046, and standard analog front- and back-end electronics.

If you look at products that are all based on a particular chip or chipset, you'll see that they will tend to be very similar, for obvious reasons.

-a
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Tom Duffy on December 07, 2010, 07:13:48 pm
Ryan Lantzy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 14:07

Lee Brenkman wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 16:46

Tom Duffy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 13:32

Steve Sagerson wrote on Sat, 04 December 2010 06:36

I'm just posing a question here, but since Behringer does apparently have the ability to make an ok sounding mic pre (ADA8000) ....


Behringer didn't really design the ADA8000 either, it uses the Wavefront ADC, DAC and ADAT chips designed by Keith Barr (RIP) using the recommended circuits from the datasheets.  Any "good sound" is 99% Keith's.

Tom.


I never, for a moment, doubted that the ADA8000 was developed using Behringer's 'copying machine' R&D methods.


Tom, I thinkyour post is VERY misleading.  While the ADA8000 does use Alesis Semiconductor coverters and ADAT chips, they certianly did not steal the design from anyone.  The purchased some bulk parts and used them in their design just like any other electronics corporation would.

In many instances Behringer's practices have been dubious, but I think the ADA8000 stands out as one of there more respectable products.




Maybe I left too much space between those lines, I didn't mean to imply there was anything else to read in between them; just wanted to credit the real innovator.
Unfortunately, no other company would dare to spec a converter box that only does 1x FS rates now, because all the reviews would come out and say "but it doesn't do 96kHz".

Tom.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Mike Christy on December 07, 2010, 07:16:16 pm
Exactly.

There are these things called evaluation packages/platforms. They are provided by the IC manufacturers and basically include a hardware circuit - PCB, power supply, FW, SW, an actual working product for demo purposes.

The OEM developer uses this to evaluate the device, functioning as it would in the end product. Layout, schematic, BOM, everything is included.

It is not all that difficult to move from what is provided by the ASIC/IC house to a final working prototype.

Youd be surprised how many designs are a cut and paste from the development/eval platform that was provided for evaluation.

It can only work one way, usually. And they want to sell ICs.

Mike

Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: John H. O'Brien on December 07, 2010, 07:21:05 pm
just goes to show that there is nothing new under the sun.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Tom Duffy on December 07, 2010, 07:25:53 pm
Tom Duffy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 16:13

Maybe I left too much space between those lines, I didn't mean to imply there was anything else to read in between them; just wanted to credit the real innovator.
Tom.


That still came out wrong.
Behringer did a great job of packaging those chips in a product that was originally a peripheral for their first digital mixer. Normally those kind of peripherals are priced higher because they ship in smaller quantities.  They priced it so low that no other company has since tried to compete under $500 for 8 channels of AD and DA.

Tom.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Lee Brenkman on December 07, 2010, 08:45:35 pm
Andy Peters wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 16:03


WHOA, both Ryan and Lee --
-a


WHOA accepted Andy.  I will always defer to your superior knowledge of things on the circuit and component level.

I would agree that the use of well known, published and MEANT TO BE USED circuits in a design is not the same as making a cheap copy of someone else's mixer, compressor, gate, "exciter" or direct box.

The early Kustom solid state amps were circuits straight out of the RCA semi conductor "cook book" and the power stage of the first Sunn amps were Dynaco Mark IIIs straight out of the kit box.

I still want that two rack space mic in/line out ADAT interface for my O1V though  Razz
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Smith on December 07, 2010, 08:47:20 pm
Craig Walsh wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 10:32


Roland had an interesting idea with their VM series of mixers several years back. All of the I/O was handled in a special box that could sit at the stage, and the desk could be situated at the FOH position, all connected by a VM-LINK cable.

Exactly what I've been hoping to see.

Quote:

Tascam also has current offerings that can be used for live work. The DM-3200 has a 32 channel 16 bus configuration that includes 16 pres and 16 aux returns, plus 8 aux sends. The street price on this is comparable to the O1V96, but the O1V96 seems to be much more favored in a live setting.

I was looking at this, but comments were definitely not favorable for live use.  I was considering it quite a bit more expensive as well and not in the same range, as it's $3800 with the meter bridge.  But I guess if you forgo that and add the cost of an almost mandatory card to the Yamaha they get close, although I'm not sure if a card is "required" for the Tascam.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 07, 2010, 08:51:29 pm
Andy Peters wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 18:03



If you look at products that are all based on a particular chip or chipset, you'll see that they will tend to be very similar, for obvious reasons.

-a


Too true. If you look at all the DICE II based products out there, they are almost clones. I'd bet a very similar situation exists with the circuitry in those units. It would seem that, as chip makers offer greater and greater integration of audio functions on chips, building cheaper digital mixers should follow. Yes, there is still the expense of preamps, AD/DA converters, and flying faders (dispensed with on the Presonus desk), but the basic functionality could become very cheap. To bring prices down, the places to skimp would be on the preamps and using an encoders rather than flying faders, etc. But, I can see digital mixers becoming significantly cheaper than analog mixers once a DICE-like mixer on a chip becomes available.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Smith on December 07, 2010, 08:54:23 pm
Ryan Lantzy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 11:13


The now discontinued Behringer DDX3216 had 8 aux busses.  Four were dedicated to internal FX but nothing stopped you from routing them to an output.

If you count the FX sends the Presonus has 8; not sure how the FX are set up for this new one.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 07, 2010, 08:54:52 pm
Most behringer products get viewed through our personal filters (sh__ colored glasses in my case) based on our personal feelings about the company's past behavior.

Few audio companies roll their own large scale ICs (Yamaha comes to mind as one notable exception but only for some chips). At this point behringer has surely developed a credible engineering team, that can connect the dots like the rest.

If their main selling proposition (these days) is price point, it is not surprising for them to take advantage of their scale and lean out the window further than other competitors can, or dare with this product.

I recall when Peavey made their first digital crossover, using DSP and converters that Peavey obviously didn't design, Industry pundits were saying, sure it could be done, but not for <$1k...   Laughing  Now digital crossovers for a few hundred dollars are common.

If Behringer is delivering a feature set, that works, for a price that nobody else is or can, they deserve credit for that.  

It won't change my long term opinion about the company. We need to take a step back and not confuse what we are really being critical of.

JR


Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Craig Smith on December 07, 2010, 08:55:52 pm
Lee Brenkman wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 14:46

It is however frustrating that no other manufacturer has produced a unit that includes both input and output ADAT connections with XLRs for the outputs.

My dream version of this, for O1v expansion would have both the input and output XLRs on the back panel and the input level LEDs and a trim pot that wasn't as flimsy on the front.  

It could be two rack spaces per 8 input/outputs, especially if it could be few inches less deep than the '8000'.

And yes, I WOULD pay more than $189 for it  Rolling Eyes

+1
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: David Buckley on December 07, 2010, 10:45:39 pm
The really interesting question is what DSPs these new B* mixers have.  Or more succinctly, are they of the same range as used in the Midas stuff?

Once it's written, software is free, and if B* can reuse some of the software from the $$$$$$$$$ mixers in the $$ mixer, then the $$ mixer may, within ten times its price point, be absolutely the best game in town by a country mile.

Maybe the pictures we have so far don't show the little badge, "Powered by Midas"...
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Ryan Lantzy on December 07, 2010, 10:57:49 pm
Tom Duffy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 19:13

Ryan Lantzy wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 14:07


Tom, I thinkyour post is VERY misleading.  While the ADA8000 does use Alesis Semiconductor coverters and ADAT chips, they certianly did not steal the design from anyone.  The purchased some bulk parts and used them in their design just like any other electronics corporation would.

In many instances Behringer's practices have been dubious, but I think the ADA8000 stands out as one of there more respectable products.




Maybe I left too much space between those lines, I didn't mean to imply there was anything else to read in between them; just wanted to credit the real innovator.
Unfortunately, no other company would dare to spec a converter box that only does 1x FS rates now, because all the reviews would come out and say "but it doesn't do 96kHz".

Tom.


My apologies for jumping to conclusions.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 08, 2010, 09:43:11 am
Craig Walsh wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 17:26

TJ (Tom) Cornish wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 11:54

I looked at the Roland VM-7200 years ago.  I think one of the major problems was the lack of processing power.  I remember it having only 4 "effects processors" (which you had to install expansion modules to get), and dynamics counted as an "effect". In other words, you could get verb, delay, and only two comps.

Very cool idea though, and not indordinately expensive.

I've really tried to like the Tascam stuff - it truly sucks for live use compared to Yamaha's offerings.



Tom - I had the same issues with the VM series. Plus, they were just starting to blow their stock on it when I started looking into it. Cool idea though.

What was your beef about the Tascam DM-3200? Based on specs, it looks like it could compete well with the O1V96. But, I've not had a chance to mix on one, so I'd appreciate your thoughts since at some point, I'll be in the market for another small format digital mixer. (Hopefully later rather than sooner!)

It's been several years since I've actively looked at them but my recollections were primarily poor ergonomics for live mixing and a huge frame size for no good reason compared to Yamaha offerings - especially the DM-4800.  
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 08, 2010, 10:01:45 am
David Buckley wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 21:45

The really interesting question is what DSPs these new B* mixers have.  Or more succinctly, are they of the same range as used in the Midas stuff?

Once it's written, software is free, and if B* can reuse some of the software from the $$$$$$$$$ mixers in the $$ mixer, then the $$ mixer may, within ten times its price point, be absolutely the best game in town by a country mile.

Maybe the pictures we have so far don't show the little badge, "Powered by Midas"...


Just to be clear, I ASSume you are talking about behringer being free to use software that they wrote for their more expensive brands in their cheaper brands. That is plausible. Hopefully they will stay with the same processor family to keep the coders sane, and help with code portability.

This may somewhat help the classic problem with line extension where extra models tend to cannibalize sales of their other line siblings. I would expect the expensive model to have more and better features, but it is a matter of perspective (and design rigor), whether the $$ model is a bargain, or the $$$$ model is a rip-off.  Rolling Eyes

I can't think of another company that has successfully pulled that off with a digital console platform. It will be interesting to watch.

JR

Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 08, 2010, 10:21:12 am
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 19:54

If Behringer is delivering a feature set, that works, for a price that nobody else is or can, they deserve credit for that.  

It won't change my long term opinion about the company. We need to take a step back and not confuse what we are really being critical of.

JR





John, truth be told, I remember a time when Peavy gear was looked at with considerable disdain. Their products were seen to be on the low end of the MI grade. Actually, my bass amp way back in high school was a Peavy (until it was stolen), and it worked out fine. But, there were plenty of other musicians and sound techs that were happy to tell me it was junk.

Obviously, Peavy has gained some street cred since those days. Clearly, talented engineers such as yourself were brought in to raise the perception of the brand, and now the company sells quality products. I'm not saying this will be the case for the Behringer brand, but to use your eyeglass analogy, the lenses change with time. Heck, I remember a time when Yamaha gear was considered cheap foreign junk. Clearly, that was a while ago.  
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Mac Kerr on December 08, 2010, 10:43:16 am
Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 10:21

 Heck, I remember a time when Yamaha gear was considered cheap foreign junk. Clearly, that was a while ago.  


I'm curious when this was. I first started using Yamaha mixers about 32 years ago. At that time they were considered to be both high quality and fairly advanced technology. I don't remember them ever being disparaged for being made in Japan. Like all companies that try to be everything to everybody they made some crap, the EM series of powered mixers comes to mind, but that crap was filling out a line of already respected innovative  products.

Behringer is trying to move up from their budget oriented products into more advanced pro level gear. When details about the new digital mixer are available we  will see how successful they have been. To be successful in the marketplace it will have to be able to leave behind the baggage of bad feelings in regard to the company's apparent disregard for intellectual property in the past.

Mac
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 08, 2010, 11:37:17 am
Mac Kerr wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 09:43

Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 10:21

 Heck, I remember a time when Yamaha gear was considered cheap foreign junk. Clearly, that was a while ago.  


I'm curious when this was. I first started using Yamaha mixers about 32 years ago. At that time they were considered to be both high quality and fairly advanced technology. I don't remember them ever being disparaged for being made in Japan. Like all companies that try to be everything to everybody they made some crap, the EM series of powered mixers comes to mind, but that crap was filling out a line of already respected innovative  products.

Behringer is trying to move up from their budget oriented products into more advanced pro level gear. When details about the new digital mixer are available we  will see how successful they have been. To be successful in the marketplace it will have to be able to leave behind the baggage of bad feelings in regard to the company's apparent disregard for intellectual property in the past.

Mac


Personally, I'm amazed that a piece of VAPORWARE has gotten almost 100 replies.

This unit does not exist, it can't be auditioned or purchased or even viewed.

Bah fucking humbug...
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on December 08, 2010, 11:40:26 am
Tim McCulloch wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 10:37

Personally, I'm amazed that a piece of VAPORWARE has gotten almost 100 replies.

This unit does not exist, it can't be auditioned or purchased or even viewed.

Bah fucking humbug...

To be fair, about 8 of the 100 are about the hypothetical new Behringer "product".  15 or so are questioning if it will ever get built.  50 are commentary that even if it does get built, they won't buy it based on previous experience/perception of the company.  The rest of the replies are OT/other equipment.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 08, 2010, 12:18:52 pm
Mac Kerr wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 09:43

I'm curious when this was. I first started using Yamaha mixers about 32 years ago. At that time they were considered to be both high quality and fairly advanced technology. I don't remember them ever being disparaged for being made in Japan. Like all companies that try to be everything to everybody they made some crap, the EM series of powered mixers comes to mind, but that crap was filling out a line of already respected innovative  products.

Behringer is trying to move up from their budget oriented products into more advanced pro level gear. When details about the new digital mixer are available we  will see how successful they have been. To be successful in the marketplace it will have to be able to leave behind the baggage of bad feelings in regard to the company's apparent disregard for intellectual property in the past.

Mac


Mac - I wasn't referring to their high end mixers, but back in the day (late 70's/early 80's), most of the Yamaha gear I was accustomed to was lower budget stuff. So my own impression of their gear was colored by this. I'm simply making the point that perceptions change over time (and of course, this is also depends on what part of the market you have experience with). These days, I love Yamaha most gear. Clearly, many of their mixers are world class.

But getting back on topic...

I seem to recall plenty of speculative discussion on this board regarding the Presonus mixer before it was released. Same too regarding the MCL7. Clearly there is an interest when a new offering in low budget digit mixing becomes apparent. I for one think the fact that more choices are becoming available in affordable digital mixing IS important. Each time such gear becomes available, especially in bulk, it tends to drive innovation.

And what's the point of Behringer putting up a web page to discuss this new offering if it's just "vaporware?" They list some reasonably impressive specs that should get some interest around here.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Andy Peters on December 08, 2010, 12:33:16 pm
Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 10:18

And what's the point of Behringer putting up a web page to discuss this new offering if it's just "vaporware?"


It's a standard marketing trick -- a pre-emptive strike.

They want to keep potential customers from buying the Presonus or other low-end digital mixer because of the promise that a less-expensive product will be released Real Soon Now.

-a

PS: Of course Tim McC is correct.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Jeff Babcock on December 08, 2010, 12:40:23 pm
Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 12:33



It's a standard marketing trick -- a pre-emptive strike.

They want to keep potential customers from buying the Presonus or other low-end digital mixer because of the promise that a less-expensive product will be released Real Soon Now.

-a




Can you say IPR amplifier?
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 08, 2010, 01:55:23 pm
Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 11:33

Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 10:18

And what's the point of Behringer putting up a web page to discuss this new offering if it's just "vaporware?"


It's a standard marketing trick -- a pre-emptive strike.

They want to keep potential customers from buying the Presonus or other low-end digital mixer because of the promise that a less-expensive product will be released Real Soon Now.

-a

PS: Of course Tim McC is correct.



IBM was busted (60s-70s?) by the FTC for the obviously anti-competitive practice of vaporware press releases to thwart competition.

Uli ain't IBM... but is not above wanting to be like ike. While it is unfair to accuse him of being anything other than slow to market. I have been involved in many premature product ejaculations over the decades.

JR
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 08, 2010, 02:11:20 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 12:55

I have been involved in many premature product ejaculations over the decades.

JR


Laughing I just spilled my coffee!

I guess we'll find out soon. NAMM 2011 is in just over a month, and this product is supposed to be announced there.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 08, 2010, 02:11:45 pm
Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 09:21



John, truth be told, I remember a time when Peavy gear was looked at with considerable disdain. Their products were seen to be on the low end of the MI grade. Actually, my bass amp way back in high school was a Peavy (until it was stolen), and it worked out fine. But, there were plenty of other musicians and sound techs that were happy to tell me it was junk.

Obviously, Peavy has gained some street cred since those days. Clearly, talented engineers such as yourself were brought in to raise the perception of the brand, and now the company sells quality products. I'm not saying this will be the case for the Behringer brand, but to use your eyeglass analogy, the lenses change with time. Heck, I remember a time when Yamaha gear was considered cheap foreign junk. Clearly, that was a while ago.  


While I would love to take credit for single handedly making Peavey products more professional, the reality is I learned stuff while there from some serious cats (like jack Sondermeyer)...   We used to do a Jack and Johnny session in dealer seminars to talk about power amps, and I would joke that Jack forgot more about power amp design than I know and I was only half joking...

If anything my participation here on the LAB, often playing defense, has probably done more to help the image of Peavey than my design work did, while I am proud of all that I accomplished in my 15 years there.

A classic problem with entry level gear is that people associate the gear with the competency of the users. Yamaha no doubt has some of that going on with their lower end lines. Consumers should not confuse quality with features and finish.

IMO it is harder to design for the low end, than high end... been there done that...  The product definition is trivial, make an XYZ for less money. Executing designs for less cost that don't suck is the real work.

JR

 
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: David Buckley on December 08, 2010, 03:45:03 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Thu, 09 December 2010 04:01


Just to be clear, I ASSume you are talking about behringer being free to use software that they wrote for their more expensive brands in their cheaper brands.

yep; if they have processor compatibility then it would be possible for them to reuse Midas written code in a Behringer desk.

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Thu, 09 December 2010 04:01


This may somewhat help the classic problem with line extension where extra models tend to cannibalize sales of their other line siblings.

Even if the Behringer (by virtue of Midas injection) ends up being the best small digital surface under $20K, I don't think there is much customer crossover between a Midas mixer buyer and a Behringer mixer buyer.  And Behringer doesn't have anything else in its product line to lose sales to.

Yamaha do have that problem; they can't make an 01V have the same feature set as the big brothers, and then they would canibalise their bigger, higher priced offerings.  Thus lack of DCAs on some Yam desks really winds me up; the lack of DCAs is purely down to marketing not technology.

But from a customer perspective, at the low end of the market, soon there could have a choice between a small Yam, Presonus, Roland, Mackie etc, or a "Powered by Midas" Behringer at a price point lower than that of the competition.

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Thu, 09 December 2010 04:01


I can't think of another company that has successfully pulled that off with a digital console platform. It will be interesting to watch.

+lots Smile

The old Behringer digital mixer was a decent enough toe-in-the-water low cost "me too" digital desk with reliability problems.  Their new desk might be a market changer.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Steve Sagerson on December 08, 2010, 05:16:03 pm
Maybe companies trot out vaporware and then read all the PSW posts about it to get market feedback. Razz   Unfortunately for the Behringer folk that means they have to sift through a lot of rants about their company in general which can’t be fun for them.  

I think one thing that generates so much discussion about a product like this is that many of us may secretly hope this company can finally offer up an interesting product at a good price that is RELIABLE.  Maybe we’re all wondering “Is this the one that delivers what it promises?”

Personally, I hope the company is in a growing phase from an engineering and most importantly quality standpoint.  Other companies have done it.  Hyundai comes to mind.  They used to build low quality econoboxes and now they are a major player in the auto industry.  It took a long time but they’ve arrived.  They now design nice cars that have good quality and are still priced less than their competitors.  Maybe Behringer can get there as well.  With that being said I will not be the first test monkey to plop down my $2,500 and just hope for the best.  I will have to read several good reviews from other test monkeys that span a year or more of use to buy into the idea that the most complicated product they sell is actually reliable.  I bought a $300 powered mixer for the practice room from them once and it died 3 months later.  A lot of things can die during a live show that you can find a work around for but to the best of knowledge a mixer isn’t one of them.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on December 08, 2010, 05:40:52 pm
Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 16:21

John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 19:54

If Behringer is delivering a feature set, that works, for a price that nobody else is or can, they deserve credit for that.  

It won't change my long term opinion about the company. We need to take a step back and not confuse what we are really being critical of.

JR





John, truth be told, I remember a time when Peavy gear was looked at with considerable disdain. Their products were seen to be on the low end of the MI grade. Actually, my bass amp way back in high school was a Peavy (until it was stolen), and it worked out fine. But, there were plenty of other musicians and sound techs that were happy to tell me it was junk.

Obviously, Peavy has gained some street cred since those days. Clearly, talented engineers such as yourself were brought in to raise the perception of the brand, and now the company sells quality products. I'm not saying this will be the case for the Behringer brand, but to use your eyeglass analogy, the lenses change with time. Heck, I remember a time when Yamaha gear was considered cheap foreign junk. Clearly, that was a while ago.  


Speaking of Peavey...  I'm waiting for their first digital mixer:  They were early in the game with digital EQs and loudspeaker processing.  They have the Media Matrix line of products, and they were including USB ports and firewire outs as well as digital sections in relatively inexpensive analog boards pretty early.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 08, 2010, 06:00:48 pm
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 16:40




Speaking of Peavey...  I'm waiting for their first digital mixer:  They were early in the game with digital EQs and loudspeaker processing.  They have the Media Matrix line of products, and they were including USB ports and firewire outs as well as digital sections in relatively inexpensive analog boards pretty early.


I am reluctant to reveal too much inside baseball about Peavey, and I have been outside the walls for enough years now that my info is dated, but we (they)  had active digital mixer programs, back when I was there and even investigated some joint ventures... (with players who ultimately didn't make it).

Hartley used to characterize the digital console business as a large pack of hounds (would be consoles makers) chasing one poor fox (actual digital console customers). Not too far off the mark for the early days, and we were looking at this since the early days.

People don't appreciate how long Yamaha lost money developing a digital console market, but it will eventually become the commodity that I predict. (I also predict digital consoles will disappear being absorbed into other hardware that can't be eliminated so easily. Coming soon an IPhone control surface that talks to mediamatrix built into your powered speakers    Laughing ..just kidding folks).  

In my judgement the technology isn't the hardest part. Peavey already has that covered with mediamatrix. You Kristian, are part of the slender group actually waiting for a digital console with Peavey written on it. The vast majority would run the other way.

JR


Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Jay Barracato on December 08, 2010, 08:18:19 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 17:00



You Kristian, are part of the slender group actually waiting for a digital console with Peavey written on it. The vast majority would run the other way.







I might be there with him. My personal image of Peavey is a lot better than all the other players in that market. In general, Peavey has performed exactly as advertised for me. In a way it comes back to the same discussion we have had a number of times. On an upper range piece of MI equipment, do you want something from a manufacturer that the equipment represents the top of their product line, or something that the product is the bottom of the line.

I have no great love for a 01V98 or a LS9,and I was not overly impressed with the Studiolive. Right now entry level digital that actually interests me is ILive or SC48. I think there is a lot of market room under that, and I would certainly evaulate a Peavey offering based on the cost and feature set rather than the name.
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: David Buckley on December 08, 2010, 08:50:34 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Thu, 09 December 2010 12:00

I also predict digital consoles will disappear being absorbed into other hardware that can't be eliminated so easily. Coming soon an IPhone control surface that talks to mediamatrix built into your powered speakers    Laughing ..just kidding folks).


I don't think you're kidding at all, and you may be not far from the truth.

Somewhere on this very board I suggested that we will be able to replace our UHFs wireless mics and their associated receivers with digital wireless mics going straight to mix;  who would need mic preamps for the money channels?

We've only been doing digital for a few years so far, and look how far we've come; who knows what crazy stuff we'll have in a decade or two's time...  And who knows how much of it will be Behringer!

Actually, typing that last word caused a train of thought: some Behringer products are (generally!) quite well thought of, the DCX speaker manager, the A/D converters.  These are products that involve Behringer writing DSP code, they are not "similar" to other manfs products, that some argue is all that Behringer make.

Maybe Behringer will have a second coming with their digital stuff, and become a respected member of the pro audio community...?


Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: Craig Smith on December 08, 2010, 09:19:01 pm
As I think about it, there are two components to this gear -- hardware and software.  It seems that Behringer has cut corners on the hardware side, but perhaps they are better on the software side.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Bob Leonard on December 08, 2010, 10:31:22 pm
Are you really under the impression Behringer copies the hardware but doesn't copy or use large portions of other manufacturers firmware?  Laughing
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Andy Peters on December 08, 2010, 11:01:16 pm
Bob Leonard wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 20:31

Are you really under the impression Behringer copies the hardware but doesn't copy or use large portions of other manufacturers firmware?  Laughing


Cloning firmware is possible, assuming that the hardware platform on which it runs is also cloned.

Making changes to the cloned firmware, without access to the source, is damned near impossible. The engineering time is better spent actually developing your own firmware.

-a
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on December 09, 2010, 12:19:27 am
Bob Leonard wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 21:31

Are you really under the impression Behringer copies the hardware but doesn't copy or use large portions of other manufacturers firmware?  Laughing


In the case of the DDX3216, this was not likely the case. Yamaha could make its own chips for the O1V and O1V96, but Behringer used Analog Devices SHARC processors (also used in the DCX2496 and DEQ2496). Their file I/O was DOS compatible. Thus, while they could take advantage of some existing file I/O routines, their DSP architecture appears to have been unique vs. the closest competitor. It seems as though they spent quite a bit of their engineering budget on building that platform. I was surprised that they didn't opt to simply upgrade (or downgrade, for that matter) on the existing platform. But apparently, the SHARC environment didn't move in the direction they wanted, and re-engineering their code to conform to newer SHARC processors (along with expensive parts like those flying Alps faders) would have been too expensive for their margins.

I think this all the more suggests some "Midas Inside" the new mixer. It will be interesting to see.

BTW, the list price on that page has now jumped from $2500 to $3000. Interesting....
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Lee Brenkman on December 09, 2010, 12:39:56 am
Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 21:19


BTW, the list price on that page has now jumped from $2500 to $3000. Interesting....


With all the "interest" in the product on this forum they may think they have a potential hot seller  Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Charlie Zureki on December 09, 2010, 06:52:57 am
Lee Brenkman wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 23:39

Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 21:19


BTW, the list price on that page has now jumped from $2500 to $3000. Interesting....


With all the "interest" in the product on this forum they may think they have a potential hot seller  Rolling Eyes



 Hmmmm......

 Website product interest tracking...?  If there's enough interest they will build it.... so, spike their site with many visits from differing addresses ....and they could potentially make a Corporate over-priced product that NOBODY really wants ?

  Of course, I'm not suggesting anyone try this.

Hammer
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Josh Billings on December 09, 2010, 08:53:25 am
Behringer threads normally go like this

If you have a low post count
"Behringer sucks, sounds horrible and always fails"

Medium-Large Post Count
"I'm skeptical, because it's Behringer but i'm not discounting it entirely. Would like to hear more."

P.S. I was a "no behringer" guy when i owned a crappy compressor unit that i thought sounded bad when pushed. I however am a "yeah behringer" guy ever since i swapped my Drive Rack out for a cheapo DCX2496

Josh Billings
Title: Re: Behringer making, but NOT designing at least ONE okay sounding product
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on December 09, 2010, 11:24:45 am
Craig Smith wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 20:19

As I think about it, there are two components to this gear -- hardware and software.  It seems that Behringer has cut corners on the hardware side, but perhaps they are better on the software side.


More than 2 IMO.

1) feature set (list of things to do)
2) ergonomic or human factors (rotary or sliders, where controls are, rate and range of controls, menus, displays etc)
3) hardware (architecture and execution)
4) software ( architecture and execution)
5) what customer wants, when, where, and for right price.


Midas should be capable of #1 and #2 (hopefully), behringer should be capable of #3  and #4. I would not ASSume that because midas has insight into more expensive analog console business that automatically imparts dominant digital chops on them.  If they have a digital platform that works but is too expensive maybe behringer can help them there.

#5 Behringer has exhibited capability here.

The bottom line may be who is driving the bus.. I have seen digital software engineers destroy an otherwise attractive product concept with their horrible execution of the human factors part of software interface.  At this point some are speculating that this will be the best of this and best of that. Who the F knows?  As analog console makers know, the devil is in the details, I'm sure digital consoles are the same just with different ways to disappoint the customer.

Josh Billings wrote on Thu, 09 December 2010 07:53

Behringer threads normally go like this

If you have a low post count
"Behringer sucks, sounds horrible and always fails"

Medium-Large Post Count
"I'm skeptical, because it's Bringer but i'm not discounting it entirely. Would like to hear more."

Josh Billings


or not....    Cool   While I don't dislike them as an empty fashion statement.

Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 23:19


I think this all the more suggests some "Midas Inside" the new mixer. It will be interesting to see.

BTW, the list price on that page has now jumped from $2500 to $3000. Interesting....


The dollar exchange rate especially wrt the yuan has been pretty volatile. On one hand the quantitative easing (II) by Bernanke (effectively printing money) should weaken the dollar, while the fear of more sovereign debt crisis (like Ireland, Greece, Portugal, etc) makes the dollar stronger. Another point not much considered, our interest rates can't stay at near zero forever so that will also strengthen the dollar, If and when we ever start seeing significant growth in our economy and raise interest rates to reduce inflation. A price adjustment now may anticipate where the dollar will be when these ship (they appear to be betting on the weaker dollar). While it's hard to say where it will be even a week from now with the lame duck refusing to go quietly into the night.

re: this suggesting Midas inside.. I don't know what their bona fides are wrt cost effective digital design that doesn't suck. This may be a horse race between them and Behringer engineering. It could be a win-win (no doubt what management wants) but sometimes these marriages can be a little tricky.  

======

I am speculating at this point just like everybody else, but I have been paying attention to some of these issues for over a decade. I will state with certainty that it isn't as simple as most suggest and I have no real idea of how the pieces will come together.

Lets hope for the best, but kick the tires.

JR

Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Tom Duffy on December 09, 2010, 03:48:38 pm
Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 20:01

Bob Leonard wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 20:31

Are you really under the impression Behringer copies the hardware but doesn't copy or use large portions of other manufacturers firmware?  Laughing


Cloning firmware is possible, assuming that the hardware platform on which it runs is also cloned.

Making changes to the cloned firmware, without access to the source, is damned near impossible. The engineering time is better spent actually developing your own firmware.

-a


+1
Writing firmware that works is truly where the schedule for a product like this gets stretched.  My guess is that several of Uli's engineers from Germany are enjoying the rain in Kiderminster (base of operations for Midas) right now...

Tom.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: David Buckley on January 06, 2011, 04:43:54 pm
Craig Walsh wrote on Mon, 22 November 2010 11:46

They mention something about interfacing with the Behringer P16 personal monitoring system, so maybe there is more to it than meets the eye. Right now the "P16" is also vapor-ware, but could be some sort of multi-channel monitoring system (or it could be an IEM system).


The P16 goes from vapourware to vapourware with a brochure...





Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: brian maddox on January 06, 2011, 10:07:22 pm
David Buckley wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 16:43



The P16 goes from vapourware to vapourware with a brochure...



now this little bugger is truly interesting.  they are going head to head with aviom for the HOW market, and if this stuff works and is priced reasonably, they'll sell a bunch of it.

they've kept it simple, but dealt with several of the aviom annoyances.  most notably, the 'input' module includes digital inputs and a powered, 6 output distro.

aviom has had this segment to themselves for a long time and have priced their product accordingly.  it'll be nice to have some competition to give them a little bit of a shove...

plus, the money they make on this can help finance the firmware upgrades for the X32...  Smile

brian 'former aviomer' maddox
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: David Buckley on January 06, 2011, 10:33:10 pm
brian maddox wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 16:07


now this little bugger is truly interesting.  they are going head to head with aviom for the HOW market...


Not only that, but it is strongly implied that it can be connected directly to the mixer like the Roland M48 does to the M300 et al.  If this is the case, and Uli's boys have built the same sort of patching flexibility and control options that the Roland chaps have, then this will be a very useful setup indeed, assuming its priced competitively, which is pretty much a given...

Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: brian maddox on January 06, 2011, 11:08:18 pm
David Buckley wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 22:33

brian maddox wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 16:07


now this little bugger is truly interesting.  they are going head to head with aviom for the HOW market...


Not only that, but it is strongly implied that it can be connected directly to the mixer like the Roland M48 does to the M300 et al.  If this is the case, and Uli's boys have built the same sort of patching flexibility and control options that the Roland chaps have, then this will be a very useful setup indeed, assuming its priced competitively, which is pretty much a given...



agreed.  i do like the fact that they've got a system that can be driven from an analog desk, a set of free-standing mic-pre's [can you say AD8K?], or integrated into their digital mixer system.  there's a lot of flexibiity there.  i was always intrigued by the roland rig, but it required buying into the whole system, which i didn't have the capital to do.  so i fashioned my own personal monitor system using 4 01v96s and a bunch of bcr2000 midi controllers.  ended up with a very flexible [though admittedly complicated] system that far surpassed even the roland system in capability while costing significantly less than an aviom system.  in fact, i sold my avioms to finance it...  Smile

glad i sold my avioms before behringer came along and devalued them...

brian
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on January 07, 2011, 12:22:45 am
Based on the X32 spec sheet, I thought they would be coming out with a personal monitor system. This appears to confirm that. I'm curious regarding the Aviom system (which I've not used)... is there a way to interface to other digital desks and if so, is this done in the digital domain via CobraNet or something? Does this require an extra card to be added to the O1V or LS9? I wonder if the X32 has built in Ethernet or if it requires adding an I/O card to allow it to connect with their digital snake and their personal monitor (P16). It certainly looks very similar spec-wise to the Aviom A16II.

We should know a bit more about this "vaporware" desk in a little over a week where it will be introduced at NAMM. From the looks of it, it could be the perfect setup for small churches, etc, especially now with this personal monitoring system added to up the ante. Behringer is clearly taking what appears to be a calculated risk to move beyond their garage band market.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: brian maddox on January 07, 2011, 12:37:08 am
Craig Walsh wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 00:22

Based on the X32 spec sheet, I thought they would be coming out with a personal monitor system. This appears to confirm that. I'm curious regarding the Aviom system (which I've not used)... is there a way to interface to other digital desks and if so, is this done in the digital domain via CobraNet or something? Does this require an extra card to be added to the O1V or LS9?


aviom is a '16-channels one direction over cat5' proprietary protocol.  there is also a larger aviom 'Pro64' protocol that runs 64 channels on one cat5, but it hasn't gained widespread acceptance.

i know there is an aviom output card for yamaha digital mixers.  there may be cards for other desks as well.

they also make a variety of other input modules for analog line level, mic level, and aes digital inputs, as well as various signal distribution boxes.  

it's a pretty comprehensive system.  but it's a bit klugey.  and, imho, a bit pricey for what it does...

brian
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on January 07, 2011, 11:45:32 am
I just looked more closely at this, and it looks very interesting. With their input box, it looks as though I could just take 16 channels from the mix bus on my DDX3216 (or the direct outs) via ADAT; it would work similarly with an O1V96, etc. So only one box to buy, plus the individual personal mixers. The mixer itself looks to be better set up for running wireless IEMs since it has L/R line outs (not just headphone out).

Now I'm curious to see how they implement their digital snake. Hopefully, this will be something like the ADA8K, but with remote control trim (and input level peak meter info sent via Cat5). And it would be best if it were scalable in groups of 8. I wonder if it will require an X32 to control, or if they will inlclude an FOH box as an option to those wanting to interface with other desks.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Caleb Dick on January 07, 2011, 06:10:22 pm
brian maddox wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 21:37

Craig Walsh wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 00:22

Based on the X32 spec sheet, I thought they would be coming out with a personal monitor system. This appears to confirm that. I'm curious regarding the Aviom system (which I've not used)... is there a way to interface to other digital desks and if so, is this done in the digital domain via CobraNet or something? Does this require an extra card to be added to the O1V or LS9?


aviom is a '16-channels one direction over cat5' proprietary protocol.  there is also a larger aviom 'Pro64' protocol that runs 64 channels on one cat5, but it hasn't gained widespread acceptance.

i know there is an aviom output card for yamaha digital mixers.  there may be cards for other desks as well.

they also make a variety of other input modules for analog line level, mic level, and aes digital inputs, as well as various signal distribution boxes.  

it's a pretty comprehensive system.  but it's a bit klugey.  and, imho, a bit pricey for what it does...

brian


I believe most digital consoles have option for Aviom output cards now.  It's pretty universal.  I think it needs some updating for sure and competition, but I don't know about calling it pricey (or klugey for that matter).  The fact that cheaper brands are making cheaper versions of something that has been out for a while doesn't exactly prove that it's pricey.  

I'm still waiting for a Dante based (or at least Dante-input) personal monitoring system.  Maybe an input device that takes Dante, or Ethersound, or MADI, and converts it to A-Net or REAC or ACE.  Toslink input is nice, if you happen to have extra Toslink outputs; those seem to only be popular on the cheaper mixers.  
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Jason Ellis on January 07, 2011, 06:17:03 pm
You've got two options for a DANTE based personal monitoring system:

1 - wait for AVB standards to be sussed out and use the MyMix products provided that they build out the AVB firmware they told me would be available (DANTE would need a firmware patch as well) (DANTE and MyMix would then both be on AVB)


2 - Put a DANTE card in your console and get a $1500 DANTE to A16 converter from Whirlwind...and use Aviom stations
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: brian maddox on January 07, 2011, 07:55:35 pm
Caleb Dick wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 18:10

brian maddox wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 21:37


it's a pretty comprehensive system.  but it's a bit klugey.  and, imho, a bit pricey for what it does...

brian


I believe most digital consoles have option for Aviom output cards now.  It's pretty universal.  I think it needs some updating for sure and competition, but I don't know about calling it pricey (or klugey for that matter).  The fact that cheaper brands are making cheaper versions of something that has been out for a while doesn't exactly prove that it's pricey.  
 



it's funny.  i don't mind at all you disagreeing with me.  and yet i feel the urge to explain/defend myself.  we humans are a  contradictory breed...  anyway, here's where i was coming from...

pricey - i recently replaced my aviom system with a system of 01v96s and behringer midi remotes.  i ended up with 15 32-input stereo mixes with extensive processing capability for about what 7 or 8 aviom mixes would have cost.  i know it's an apples and donkeys comparison since my system is far more complicated and wouldn't suit most other churches.  but it still seems like a big price jump to me...

klugey - the devil is in the details.  only 1/4" headphone jacks on the mixers.  the need for separate boxes for input and distro.  that weird 'add-on' box to give them locking cat5 and UNBALANCED xlr outs [really?  unbalanced?].  that fantastic fisher price feel.  don't get me wrong.  when they arrived on the scene they were the bomb.  but i've not seen them really evolving their product.

the competition will do them good.  they are good folks.  i look forward to what they answer with...

brian
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: David Buckley on January 08, 2011, 12:37:13 am
Craig Walsh wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 18:22

We should know a bit more about this "vaporware" desk in a little over a week where it will be introduced at NAMM. From the looks of it, it could be the perfect setup for small churches, etc, especially now with this personal monitoring system added to up the ante. Behringer is clearly taking what appears to be a calculated risk to move beyond their garage band market.

Doesn't it just look like that.  

Behringer say the X32 is a "game changer".  Behringer certainly have the resources in terms of money and software engineers, all they really need to do is put their build quality up from "generally OK as long as you look after the stuff carefully" to "you would think this is built in America or Germany", accepting this will mean a price increase, and they could have a very creditable system on their hands, at a price point that squeezes a lot of the established competition.

They havent announced a digital snake, but I'm theorising they may do something interesting around ADAT.  

They have the ADAs which are reasonably well respected.  The audio interface for the P-16 monitor head has ADAT inputs as well as 16 analogue balanced inputs, and that combination seems odd to me.  Its easy to see the 16 analog ins make for easy integration to an all (or mostly) analog system.  I'm sure there are folks that would do a 16 way split to have ADAs with mic inputs, but I'd have thought that wasn't common.  The X32 will (I'm guessing) have the Cat5 UltraNet connector so thats how you link a P-16 to an X32.  So maybe ADAT will be how to connect a P-16 to the unannounced digital snake?  So they have something like the audiorail ADAT transport system...?

Maybe UltraNet is an ADAT transport system!

I really am starting to salivate about the X32 launch, and I don't think I've every been "excited" about a Behringer product ever!!!  I do hope it wont be a letdown...
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Grant Conklin on January 08, 2011, 02:23:55 am
brian maddox wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 18:55


...i recently replaced my aviom system with a system of 01v96s and behringer midi remotes.  i ended up with 15 32-input stereo mixes with extensive processing capability for about what 7 or 8 aviom mixes would have cost.  i know it's an apples and donkeys comparison since my system is far more complicated and wouldn't suit most other churches.  but it still seems like a big price jump to me...

brian


Do tell more!  Sounds like it deserves it's own thread.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: brian maddox on January 08, 2011, 10:51:44 am
Grant Conklin wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 02:23

brian maddox wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 18:55


...i recently replaced my aviom system with a system of 01v96s and behringer midi remotes.  i ended up with 15 32-input stereo mixes with extensive processing capability for about what 7 or 8 aviom mixes would have cost.  i know it's an apples and donkeys comparison since my system is far more complicated and wouldn't suit most other churches.  but it still seems like a big price jump to me...

brian


Do tell more!  Sounds like it deserves it's own thread.


been meaning to do a writeup on it, but that's part of my 'i need to document this thing in case i ever get run over by a bus' project that i keep meaning to do.

maybe i'll get to it now that i know there is an audience clamoring for it.  Smile

brian
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Rob Spence on January 08, 2011, 03:49:43 pm
It looks good for the personal mixing part but how do you handle the connections to the IEM transmitters? I can't imagine setting up an individual transmitter at each mix station along with the hassle of where to put it, power, etc. Lot of work to set up.
I would think you would still want a rack of transmitters with combiner.

I guess you would not use the pass through ethernet and do a star with an ethernet switch in the transmitter rack and bundle a pair of audio cables with each ethernet cable?

Maybe they need to offer a combo cable with ethernet and 2 audio pairs?

Edit: add suggestion

Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Rick Stansby on January 08, 2011, 04:31:01 pm
Rob Spence wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 12:49

It looks good for the personal mixing part but how do you handle the connections to the IEM transmitters? I can't imagine setting up an individual transmitter at each mix station along with the hassle of where to put it, power, etc. Lot of work to set up.
I would think you would still want a rack of transmitters with combiner.

I guess you would not use the pass through ethernet and do a star with an ethernet switch in the transmitter rack and bundle a pair of audio cables with each ethernet cable?

Maybe they need to offer a combo cable with ethernet and 2 audio pairs?

Edit: add suggestion




Maybe they will come up with a way to feed the output of the p-16 back into the x32 via the ultrA-net, then you could route that to outputs of the x32 to feed IEMs.

Or they could copy aviom a little bit more and have a split unit with rack mount "mixer" module and P-16 remote control.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: brian maddox on January 08, 2011, 11:17:54 pm
Rick Stansby wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 16:31

Rob Spence wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 12:49

It looks good for the personal mixing part but how do you handle the connections to the IEM transmitters? I can't imagine setting up an individual transmitter at each mix station along with the hassle of where to put it, power, etc. Lot of work to set up.
I would think you would still want a rack of transmitters with combiner.

I guess you would not use the pass through ethernet and do a star with an ethernet switch in the transmitter rack and bundle a pair of audio cables with each ethernet cable?

Maybe they need to offer a combo cable with ethernet and 2 audio pairs?

Edit: add suggestion




Maybe they will come up with a way to feed the output of the p-16 back into the x32 via the ultrA-net, then you could route that to outputs of the x32 to feed IEMs.

Or they could copy aviom a little bit more and have a split unit with rack mount "mixer" module and P-16 remote control.


i actually had this same concern when i saw that they had line outs on the mixers.  'uh, that's great if the iem transmitter is mounted on the mic stand.  otherwise, not so much.'

but i always thought aviom's solution left something to be desired as well.  i always wished that they had a 'stupid' rack mount mixer with no controls that was controlled via their remote.  if that was only a bit more than a regular mixer, that'd be cool.  as it was, every wireless rig i had needed an aviom mixer system that was at least twice as much money as the others.  piling that on top of the cost of the wireless made me seriously consider firing some singers.  or at least making them sit on stools and go hardwired...  Smile

brian
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on January 09, 2011, 01:52:52 am
For wireless IEMs, I was thinking more in the lines of the recent crowds of wireless earbud gear out there for iPods, etc. Even Etymotics has one for around $200 I believe. Heck, even a Bluetooth-based approach would probably work for most stages. As long as there was reasonable fidelity, the output of the P16 could drive a Bluetooth based set of ear buds, and given the singer didn't move too far afield of the transmitter, it would work fine. So, I don't foresee the need for a standard IEM set up, or antenna combiners, etc. Just a simple wireless transmitter velcroed on the side of the P16 and the receiver hanging off the ear buds. You don't need the large distance associated with current IEM gear. You also don't need a remote at the performer's position for personal control of the mix.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Rick Stansby on January 12, 2011, 01:25:11 am
The B*hringer site now shows a picture of the mixer:
index.php/fa/34706/0/
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Christian Tepfer on January 12, 2011, 09:37:32 am
brian maddox wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 05:17

Rick Stansby wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 16:31

Rob Spence wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 12:49

It looks good for the personal mixing part but how do you handle the connections to the IEM transmitters? I can't imagine setting up an individual transmitter at each mix station along with the hassle of where to put it, power, etc. Lot of work to set up.
I would think you would still want a rack of transmitters with combiner.

I guess you would not use the pass through ethernet and do a star with an ethernet switch in the transmitter rack and bundle a pair of audio cables with each ethernet cable?

Maybe they need to offer a combo cable with ethernet and 2 audio pairs?

Edit: add suggestion




Maybe they will come up with a way to feed the output of the p-16 back into the x32 via the ultrA-net, then you could route that to outputs of the x32 to feed IEMs.

Or they could copy aviom a little bit more and have a split unit with rack mount "mixer" module and P-16 remote control.


i actually had this same concern when i saw that they had line outs on the mixers.  'uh, that's great if the iem transmitter is mounted on the mic stand.  otherwise, not so much.'

but i always thought aviom's solution left something to be desired as well.  i always wished that they had a 'stupid' rack mount mixer with no controls that was controlled via their remote.  if that was only a bit more than a regular mixer, that'd be cool.  as it was, every wireless rig i had needed an aviom mixer system that was at least twice as much money as the others.  piling that on top of the cost of the wireless made me seriously consider firing some singers.  or at least making them sit on stools and go hardwired...  Smile

brian

Well Aviom was never the solution for remoting multiple in ear mixes. Neither will the P-16 be. They are personal monitoring mixers, not remote controls.
There are lots of remoting solutions that fit the bill (like AVID-PQ and A&H-PL-Remote, Yamaha StageMix and so on).

Another downside is the added latency, there is enough latency from the digital mixer already.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Tamas Tako on January 12, 2011, 10:52:50 am
I am much more interrested for the AES50 digital snake with remote controllable 48ch Mic pres.....

Tamas

Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Rick Stansby on January 13, 2011, 01:35:07 am
Craig Walsh wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 21:19



BTW, the list price on that page has now jumped from $2500 to $3000. Interesting....


In another strange turn the price has been dropped back down to $2500.  I know it was $3000 up until yesterday.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Joe Gislason on January 14, 2011, 09:23:38 pm
http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/28323/2555703890094187797S600x600Q85.jpg

Here it is as seen on the NAMM 2011 facebook page Behringer has.  Its under glass!
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Greg Cameron on January 14, 2011, 09:32:11 pm
Joe Gislason wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 18:23

http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/28323/2555703890094187797S600x600Q85.jpg

Here it is as seen on the NAMM 2011 facebook page Behringer has.  Its under glass!



If they won't let you touch it, it ain't real. There are probably lots of kinks to workout. Hardware is relatively easy. The problem is the software. My day job involves testing our products of which most use FPGAs. Building the circuits is a relatively minor task to making the FPGA do what you want it to once the circuit is built. Without good software, you're spinning your wheels.

Greg
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Joe Gislason on January 14, 2011, 10:39:57 pm
At least its a pretty box...
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on January 15, 2011, 02:46:19 pm
Double posts?
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on January 15, 2011, 02:47:09 pm
I may have asked this earlier in the thread but its up to 7 pages,...
Does anyone know if it has 32 XLR mic inputs or is it 16 mic pre with adat extras?

Douglas R. Allen

Edit: 32 mic pre's. Digital snake. Records direct to external hard drive to export to DAW or mix down on the board.
$2500? Not to bad.

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2011/01/14/behringer-announce -the-x32/

Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Simon Ryder on January 16, 2011, 10:25:02 am
I have to say that I am very interested in it.

The real question is: Does it sound as good or better than an LS9?

If the answer is yes thren I can see it appearing on a lot of shopping lists.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Joe Gislason on January 17, 2011, 01:59:53 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb07vZmxRK0

You get to see the back!
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on January 17, 2011, 06:39:19 pm
Okay, based on a viewing of a couple of Youtube videos from NAMM2011, it is clear that:

The X32 is still vaporware. They did have a mockup version of it complete with flying faders, but this was running in some form of demo mode, and was not set up to display any of its features. To be fair, all along, it's page has estimated a Quarter 2/3 2001 release date. Nevertheless, it was kept under a plexi box unless demo'd by a Behringer rep.

That being said, here is what is apparent:

It will come with fully recallable preamps with XLR inputs. Like the LS9-32, it lacks inserts (although the need for inserts in such digital mixers is diminished by the onboard dynamics). It will also come with 6 TSR inputs and 6 TSR "aux" outputs, as well as 16 XLR "bus" outputs. According to on rep, it actually has 16 aux buses, so it will be interesting to see if those can be routed to the "bus" outputs, which would be handy. Given this, you would have 16 aux outputs, similar to the LS9-32. Regarding I/O, it also has main L/R XLR and TRS outs (not LCR outs like you have on an LS9-32). It also has what appears to be a couple of USB ports on the top of the board (for recording up to 32 channels to a USB drive), and ethernet AES50 ports for driving their digital snake and the P16 personal monitoring system. It looks like it also has slots for loading up a Firewire card to connect to a computer DAW for more serious recording purposes. I can't make out the back panel from pausing the video, but there appear to be other digital I/O connections and MIDI. It's not clear if it will come with ADAT I/O or if that is on an option card. The LS9-32 has 64 input channel capacity. It appears that there will be room for only 40 inputs on the X32.

There are 25 100 mm motorized faders, with 16 serving channels 1-16 and 17-32 on different fader pages. There is another group of 8 faders for the 16 mix buses. These 8 faders also control the 6 matrix buses and also control 8 DCAs. The board has 8 built in effects, so I'd imagine the effects sends and returns are also controlled by these faders.

On the channel faders, each channel strip has a feature that is pretty interesting. In addition to having what appears to be a 8-10 segment level meters, there is also an individual LCD display that will display an icon of what that channel represents (e.g. singer, snare, bass, etc). The LCD panel is backlit to a distinct color depending on the type of signal (e.g. purple for drums, blue for singers, etc...not sure about the actual colors of this though). This appears to be a nice way to go, esp. for festivals where a scene recall "relabels" each input channel strip. On the top of the 16 input faders, there is a set of ring encoders, etc. that appear to control 1) pre-amp settings (e.g. trim, phantom, high pass, polarity), dynamics (gate and compression), channel EQ (4 band fully parametric), FX, and routing (to the 16 channel mix bus, 16 channel aux bus, 8 channel aux bus, etc). According to the rep, there are also 8 assignable graphic EQs, and user definable keys.

Over each group fader, there is also a small LCD display for naming groups and a level meter. Above these faders, there is the main 7" color display that allows for additional parameter tweaking, setup, etc. I must say that I like the way the board appears to be laid out, with quick access to each input channel's main functions (e.g. pre-amp, dynamics, EQ an FX) right at the top of the board.

Things I hope they include: 1) a digital memory card insert for making recallable backups; 2) a Firewire card that will transport all 32 direct inputs to a DAW plus a couple of downstream channels to monitor the sound coming out of the DAW on the X32; 3) a way to use the 16 XLR outs as "multi-outs" instead of hardwiring them to the mix bus outputs; 4) ADAT connectivity; 5) AES/EBU I/O for sending the main outs to the DEQ2496/DCX2496 or other speaker processors; 6) cascade port to connect up more than one X32 in larger setups; 7) dedicated DAW mixing fader pages (broken into input channels and mix bus channels).

In summary (from what I can gather):

-32 XLR preamp inputs/16 XLR outputs/6 TSR inpus/6 TSR outputs
-two AES50 ethernet ports for driving their forthcoming digital snake and P16 system
-fully recallable preamp settings
-full scene recall
-full dynamics per channel
-16 aux channels
-16 mix channels
-8 DCA groups
-8 FX slots
-Firewire and USB connectivity; direct recording to USB drives
-full metering and labeling of each input and group/matrix fader channel

Now, let's see if they can pull this off for their target price of $2500!





Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Rick Stansby on January 18, 2011, 03:27:01 pm
I've watched a few videos and I have a few notes to add to your in depth evaluation.


The 6 "aux" ins and outs have 1/4" on all 6 jacks, paralleled to RCA on channels 5 and 6 only.

These guys have a video that shows the back really well.  Go to the 4:00 minute mark.
 http://www.youtube.com/user/MusicStoreTV#p/search/0/I2q_v95Y 6bM

The 16 channel faders, as well as the 8 "DCA" faders have 4 bank buttons.  They never revealed all of the banks.  IIRC the Channels bank has 1-16, 17-32, USB/aux in and something else.

Also the board has:
Dedicated ultrA-net outlet. it is not AES50

AES/EBU out.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Rich Grisier on January 19, 2011, 01:11:46 am
Rick Stansby wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 01:25

The B*hringer site now shows a picture of the mixer:
index.php/fa/34706/0/



Game Changer?... was that this year's catch phrase at NAMM?
http://gamechanger.music-man.com/media/gfx/wallpaper/gc_1024x768.jpg
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Tim Padrick on January 22, 2011, 01:44:53 am
Douglas R. Allen wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 13:47

I may have asked this earlier in the thread but its up to 7 pages,...
Does anyone know if it has 32 XLR mic inputs or is it 16 mic pre with adat extras?

Douglas R. Allen

Edit: 32 mic pre's. Digital snake. Records direct to external hard drive to export to DAW or mix down on the board.
$2500? Not to bad.

 http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2011/01/14/behringer-announce -the-x32/




I don't think the digi snake is included - the preamps are in the surface.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Per Sovik on January 22, 2011, 09:12:34 am
Just some thoughts:
- The 40 channel limit on processing likely indicates that the processor is fairly limited in power, and that all features are crammed into a single prosessor design to keep the price down.

- Buying digital stage boxes for the mixer will be a bit of a waste since the investment won't expand the system, just make the on-board inputs redundant.

- A 7" display is too small for old guys like me that needs glasses to read the fine print, and that a vga/hdmi output would be fairly welcome

- I still think I want one, but would be prepared to spend a few dollars extra if all boxes on my wish list was ticked.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on January 22, 2011, 11:29:45 am
Per Sovik wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 08:12

Just some thoughts:
- The 40 channel limit on processing likely indicates that the processor is fairly limited in power, and that all features are crammed into a single prosessor design to keep the price down.

- Buying digital stage boxes for the mixer will be a bit of a waste since the investment won't expand the system, just make the on-board inputs redundant.

- A 7" display is too small for old guys like me that needs glasses to read the fine print, and that a vga/hdmi output would be fairly welcome

- I still think I want one, but would be prepared to spend a few dollars extra if all boxes on my wish list was ticked.


There's no way of knowing how many DSP processors (or what they are) in this new desk for the moment. I do find the processing channel limit a little strange, especially since they describe the desk as having two AES50 ports. Each port supports 48 channels, so I'd think that would be 40 in, 8 return. That seems like a very reasonable digital snake system, but then they said that their stage boxes that will connect via AES50 will have 16 in 8 out (which will be around $600 each). So, with three of these stage boxes, you have 48 inputs and 24 returns on stage, wasting 8 inputs. I wonder if they plan for a potential processing upgrade with their expansion slots (seems unlikely to me). While odd, it's still an amazing deal for what appears a fully functional digital snake/mixer combo.

As for the screen, I think the 7" LCD screen will probably be sufficient for most. However, their site indicates that it will come with remote control software that can be driven either by USB or its ethernet port. So, you could bring a laptop (instead of an LCD monitor) and have full control. I would imagine it possible to set this remote control software to function over WiFi, similar to what's done with Yamaha mixers.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: leon garrity on March 03, 2011, 06:54:43 am
Im thinking of getting this mixer,but the tiny screen is not good for live having to look over and focus!!!!!!!!! will there be a facility to implement an external monitor?

reguards Leon
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: leon garrity on March 03, 2011, 06:56:43 am
Im a presonus 16.4.2 user at the moment but this mixer seems a lot more for the buck so to speak.

Leon
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Craig Walsh on March 03, 2011, 10:29:00 am
From what has been said, it will come with remote control software and can hook up to a laptop via either the ethernet or USB port on the rear of the unit. Since it provides an ethernet port, it should be possible to connect up a wireless router and connect wirelessly to a laptop. Thus, it should be able to be controlled from a laptop similar to what can be done with Yamaha digital mixers. It remains to be seen how well this is implemented, of course.
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 03, 2011, 11:53:57 am
Craig Walsh wrote on Thu, 03 March 2011 09:29

From what has been said, it will come with remote control software and can hook up to a laptop via either the ethernet or USB port on the rear of the unit. Since it provides an ethernet port, it should be possible to connect up a wireless router and connect wirelessly to a laptop. Thus, it should be able to be controlled from a laptop similar to what can be done with Yamaha digital mixers. It remains to be seen how well this is implemented, of course.


What remains to be seen is if the product actually makes it to market.  I said in my early post that this was vaporware and likely to remain so for some time.  That the unit at NAMM was under glass reinforces my opinion.

At some point they will have a product, and I think it's likely that you will see the feature set reduced, rather than expanded by that time.  Option cards will eventually handle the bigger feature set.

Or I could be wrong... but on products that doesn't happen often.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: leon garrity on March 03, 2011, 12:06:53 pm
So you think this is just one big smoke screen.

Mayne because the company has aquired major other companies then to give credit where folks think ooooooooooooooooo not good,the company has to come up with a good product,but just because it is a sexy looking board means nothing in my terms.


Now
Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 03, 2011, 06:23:15 pm
That's not what I said, Leon.

I called it 'vaporware' and I stand by that assessment until it is more than a rigged mock-up.  I don't doubt that eventually this, or a similar product will come to market but with a different feature set "as standard equipment."

Title: Re: New Behringer digital mixer, the X32
Post by: leon garrity on March 03, 2011, 06:55:57 pm
Hi Tim i didnt imply that thats what you meant and i apologise if thats the way it came across,what i meant is that behringer kinda have to reassure folks that they will do everything to keep the good names Klark and such like,Everyone knows and understands that behringer persay is very cheap budget and sometimes not so good stuff.Alls well if they prove this low priced high facilty console is everything that it says it is and not be like there desks which breakdown fall apart and are generally a door stop.

Leon