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Title: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 14, 2010, 01:56:46 pm
Hi I am new to the forms and looking for some advice and help with a unique project. I am helping with the design of a sound system that we will build to provide the music for firework shows (Pyromusicals). This is unique because this application does not have many of the limitations of an outdoors concert and I have not been able to find any information as to the best setup to use for  Pyromusicals. We are starting from scratch, basically, and would like the best bang for our buck.

The owner of the fireworks company has become a dealer for Eminence Speakers to get the best price and is planing on getting amps from QSC.

He has already purchased speakers from Eminence with out much thought on the cabinets for them.
He has two HF drivers with horns, APT200s and PSD3006-8 which as far as I know just need a box of any size because they have horns.  The subs he got are KAPPA PRO15s and KILOMAX PRO-18A,which as far as I can tell are best suited for vented enclosures and may not be the best for our setup. At this time we are considering changing the sub choice to single 15 inch sub horns and the subs he  purchased will be traded in or sold.

The owners original expectations where to cover the hole hearing spectrum (20-20Khz). After a few reality checks on outdoor system performance we have  have lowered our  expectations to a more reasonable 40 to 50hz on the low end and as high as we can get out of the HF drivers he has.

Right now we need to come up with the best sub-woofer for our application and spec out power requirements so we can order the amps.

If we consider the following parameters for this project I am thinking we should go with some horn loaded 15”subs. At first I mentioned the LAB15 speaker by Eminence only to come to the realization half an hour later that there has been a box designed for this speaker yet like the LAB12 speaker. So I am back to ground zero trying to find a tried and tested design that we can build that best meets our requirements. At this point I am thinking a folded tapped horn for the LAB 15s. What do you think?

The parameters for this project include the following;

The venues will be about 500 -1000 people in a football field size outdoors setting.
No stage so we don't have to worry about rear consolation.
We are thinking about 4 stacks of speakers spaced out on the ground in front of the audience and very close to them. Within 50 feet.
The size of the subs are not a big consideration where as we will already have trucks and crew their to set up the fireworks.
The power will come from QSC amps power by rented generators.
I am looking at try amplification with a EQ or DSP for crossover settings.
Are hope is to get better than 100DB or more at 50 to 100 feet across 40 to 15K Hz.
As simple design as we can get for DIY.
Using horn extensions for the larger shows.
Need to use  Eminence speakers.
Needs to be a tried and tested design. I can not experiment with the owners money but if it is a tested design than the sky's the limit.
I am looking for maxim effichency to keep the power requierments as low as posible.
Any ideas for the DIY subs?  Let me know if I left out any relevant information. Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Art Welter on November 14, 2010, 04:33:43 pm
Andy,

100 dB at 50 feet can be done with a single 15” Eminence Definimax 15LF powered with 600 watts  in a 6.3 cubic foot ported cabinet tuned to 39 Hz, and will have an F3 of 35 Hz.
100 dB at 100 feet can be done with two of the above.
Your dB requirements don’t need horn loaded designs at all.

The Definimax 18LF would be also be a good choice for the LF, it will go lower and louder, but will take larger enclosures to do so.

Eminence provides various ported designs for most of their cones.
I would suggest looking at them and choosing accordingly.

Art Welter
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 14, 2010, 05:07:43 pm
Thanks Art. I have the Eminence design software with the ported cabs, but was thinking I could get better SPLs and higher efficiency with horns. You know more bang for you buck. Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Art Welter on November 14, 2010, 05:25:12 pm
Andrew Gregory wrote on Sun, 14 November 2010 15:07

Thanks Art. I have the Eminence design software with the ported cabs, but was thinking I could get better SPLs and higher efficiency with horns. You know more bang for you buck. Andy

Horn loaded cabinets will give a lot more upper bass sensitivity, but ported cabinets can do more output per size.
If you have plenty of storage and hauling capacity, horns are an advantage, but you need very large bass horns to get high output below 55 Hz or so.

In my current situation, storage and hauling capacity are at a premium, so I converted from horn loaded bass cabinets to dual Eminence Lab 12 ported cabinets.
This greatly increased the low bass output, but lost some output above about 70 Hz.

I have gone back and forth over the years from horn to ported and some hybrid designs. Presently, with amp and speaker costs lower than ever, plywood, real estate and fuel costs going up, ported designs may actually offer more "bang for the buck".

Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Duane Massey on November 14, 2010, 08:03:19 pm
Andrew, how advanced are your carpentry skills? How large is too large? I've built many large horns over the years, and Art is correct, you do need really big horns to reproduce lower freqs efficiently. If you are prepared to transport cabinets as big as 48W x 40T x 72D, then you can seriously consider large horns, and the results will be very, very impressive.

I would suggest you will need to look beyond the small horns you currently have, and consider building mid-bass horns to go with the subs. You can build quite a system using all Eminince/QSC components, and it would be very cost-effective.

Feel free to contact me if I can be of help, as this seems like the kind of project I enjoy.
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 14, 2010, 10:55:47 pm
Duane; We have a cabinet maker on the pay roll that has expereance with speaker boxs. How big? maybe up to 48"X48"X48" with a removible horn extenshoin that would only be used at the larger venues.
Quote:

I would suggest you will need to look beyond the small horns you currently have
Do you mean the PSD3006-8s? Thanks for your Help. It could be fun if I can get it right and it maybe the first setup designed specificaly for pyromusicals.  Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 15, 2010, 04:33:51 pm
Any thoughts on the THAM15 design? Seems simple enough to make.
Maybe an extension can be put on that or will it even work on a tapped horn?
Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Art Welter on November 15, 2010, 09:23:41 pm
Andrew Gregory wrote on Mon, 15 November 2010 14:33

Any thoughts on the THAM15 design? Seems simple enough to make.
Maybe an extension can be put on that or will it even work on a tapped horn?
Andy

Looks like it should work OK.
Any actual response curves, with actual drive levels?
Any excursion measurements?

Extensions won't work well on a tapped horn design, as the speaker cone is usually placed near the mouth, an extension would change the cone to mouth relationship.
If the extension was designed to be effective, it would result in an anemic response when removed.
A tapped horn does not require a large mouth to play low.

Straight horns benefit from horn extensions, but a more judicious use of wood is making long path folded horns, then coupling multiple units.
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 16, 2010, 07:22:23 am
Ya, I didnt think an horn extension would be to good for a taped horn. How about a single fold horn with an extension? Like a "W" bin? Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Art Welter on November 16, 2010, 11:44:01 am
Andrew Gregory wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 05:22

Ya, I didnt think an horn extension would be to good for a taped horn. How about a single fold horn with an extension? Like a "W" bin? Andy

A spiral horn gets more path length per wood and space used than a "W". Straight, "W", spiral horns can all benefit from an extension, if the extension is built and attached solidly.
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: John Halliburton on November 16, 2010, 06:34:33 pm
To the OP, why don't you just buy the used LAB subwoofers that Silas P. has had for sale in the Marketplace section here?  I've been at fireworks shows where other Danley designed hornloaded subs have been used, and it is a great effect.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 16, 2010, 10:14:56 pm
Thanks for the tip John but it looks like he may only have four left. I am still thinking bigger like 15" LABs but that has not been done yet. Some how I would think that Eminence would have made those LAB15s for horns not just vented boxs. Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 21, 2010, 09:27:37 am
I have been thinking alot about a simple horn with a flare extenshoin. Has anyone seen any good ones? Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 21, 2010, 09:45:39 am
"Straight horns benefit from horn extensions, but a more judicious use of wood is making long path folded horns, then coupling multiple units." Has this been done with 15" speakers?
Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Art Welter on November 21, 2010, 08:13:40 pm
Andrew Gregory wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 07:45

"Straight horns benefit from horn extensions, but a more judicious use of wood is making long path folded horns, then coupling multiple units." Has this been done with 15" speakers?
Andy

Yes.
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 21, 2010, 09:07:51 pm
Quote:

Yes.
Care to share?
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Art Welter on November 22, 2010, 08:56:05 am
Andrew Gregory wrote on Sun, 21 November 2010 19:07

Quote:

Yes.
Care to share?

The Community Leviathan would be one example of a compression chamber back using two extensions.
Huge, though the horns could be stacked like Dixie cups. Even with the second extension, the Leviathan was probably only a 50 Hz horn. Punchy, but not really what I'd think best for what you are planing to do.

The Leviathan was built from fiberglass, but similar horns can be built from plywood.
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 22, 2010, 05:23:59 pm
Thanks Art; But thats kind of old but I bet a MP3 player could make noise with that!

I was thinking more along the lines of a LAB15 or a smaller straight horn.

Has anyone seen any good horns that use 15" speakers like the LABs?  Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Chris Jensen on November 23, 2010, 12:17:24 am
Andy, I don't have an answer for you but a few words.  It is not the size of the speaker.  Don't be mistaken by the amount of inches.  The whole inspiration of the LABsub was one that was very specific, to produce down to a certain frequency in a certain size box.  From there the box was made and the minds behind the project were fortunate enough to be able to spec the speaker that worked the best for that box when Eminence stepped in to support the project.  I think what I am trying to say is that the LABsub is the most "perfect" DIY sub out there, there is no other DIY project that has a driver made specifically for it, at least not to my knowledge.  Until the worlds best horn designers provide us with a plan as we are lucky to have with the LAB 12, it just isn't worth it to even try to find something better in the DIY horn range.  Now does that fit you need?  That is up to you.  Used LA400 are most likely cheaper then building labs.

The main point is don't get caught up on the tool to define the outcome.  Define the outcome first, then use the tools to make that a reality.  My 12v drill is much better then an 18v one, you know why?  Because I get the same outcome, it's lighter, and I like it better.  The size of the battery has no effect on the tools job to put in a screw, it's how I use the tool to get what I want.  Sometimes though that tool isn't enough, so you know what I go get a cord and a real drill and use a different tool.

Maybe Eminence isn't the answer at all. I think on this board someone used to have an animation of a square peg trying to be put in a square hole.  Some to think about too is this, what is more efficient a bunch of smaller things or one big thing.  There is a reason why most sub cabs are the way they are.  You could put 12 18's in a cab and it would work great.  But why don't they do that.  You might only need 6 of those subs for the job, then what do you do take the whole thing.  If the concern is that a 12" is too small and a 15 is better think of it this way, take a cab the basic size of the LABsub and see if you can put a 15 in it, doubt you will ever get 2 in there, then look at a LABsub and compare the cone area of that single 15" to the 2 12" that fit, which is going to be more?  I think this is going to be true for just about any horn design.  If you are really worried about the difference still try this,  listen to 4 or more of them properly powered and I think the Lab15 will never be thought of again.
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 23, 2010, 03:47:02 pm
Chris; Thanks for your thoughts. I understand what you are saying, but I gess I am hung up on the 12" drivers being a compermise or a trade off some how. I do not what to copermise. How many would I need for a football field? I am not convinced thay are the best solution for my applicatoin and am trying to keep all opshoins open at this time. Andy

Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Charlie Zureki on November 23, 2010, 06:39:52 pm
Andrew Gregory wrote on Tue, 23 November 2010 14:47

Chris; Thanks for your thoughts. I understand what you are saying, but I gess I am hung up on the 12" drivers being a compermise or a trade off some how. I do not what to copermise. How many would I need for a football field? I am not convinced thay are the best solution for my applicatoin and am trying to keep all opshoins open at this time. Andy





 Hello Andrew,

 1.)... USE SPELL CHECK!  (it doesn't cost anything)

 2.)  How does Pyro musical program material differ from any other program material for ...say... a Music Act?

 3.)  I'm a bit confused, so maybe you can explain your first post with a bit more clarity.... You wrote that the owner of this Company  has purchased some Eminence Drivers... Why is he so impulsive?  It seems silly to purchase some drivers without any specific plans for them and he seems financially irresponsible.

 4.) You claim he has two different HF drivers and horns? Was he going to purchase any others? Or, did he (you) expect to use only these two drivers to cover a field the size of a football field?  Crowds up to 1000?

 5.) You've been given some excellent advice by some seasoned Pros, yet, with all of the planning, and equipment you're LACKING... you're "hung up on the 12" drivers being a ("compermise") compromise or a trade off some how." ?

  (Labs subs are well designed, an excellent value and proven results)

 The best solution...was to enlist someone that could give you (and the Company Owner) some advice before you started on this road of building a System.


  If you are so critical as to not wanting to compromise, then you need to spend money, and you need to purchase some PROVEN Sound gear. Anything other....will give you poor results and failure.

  Someone needs to stop trying to get something for nothing!

  Hammer

 

 

 

 
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Chris Jensen on November 23, 2010, 10:33:57 pm
Andrew, don't think of it as a compromise, think of it as a tool for a job.  Is a 20oz hammer a compromise of a sledge hammer for pounding in nail. I'm not sure if you have done your research on the project.  It would do you well to go back to some of the first posts on here and breeze though the evolution of the LABsub.  It might give you some sub theory in general as many people have had basic inquires about low freq reproduction. In a nutshell the LAB uses 2 12" drivers in a box that is 1/12th of a 27hz horn.  This means you need 12 boxes to make the full horn mouth.  I'm sure someone could chime in and give you an idea of what 12 would do.  I know there have been a few people that have talked about it on here over the years.  The jist of what they said was it was nothing short of awesome.  I think I remember someone once says they did a few thousand with 8 or so outdoors at moderate levels.  Be reminded at the sheer size of a bass horn, they are huge!  Think of it this way cup your hands over your mouth and yell, louder right, how about with a cheer style cone, louder yet.  Have you increased the size of the drive unit?  Nope it's still your voice.

My uneducated pov on the 12" driver is the little bit of power it takes to push it compared to giant 18" drivers is a real advantage.  There used to be a little picture on ServoDrive's site that was a great example of this.  Maybe a little dressed up for marketing but still drove the point home.  It was a few BT7's and the amps all laid out with weight and footprint size with performance vs a heaping pile of 2x18" boxes with the weight in amps and footprint size.  Really made you wonder.

I'm not trying to sell you on anything, more that don't be fooled by size.  Any lab owner would probably go out of their way to give you a demo.  I built one for fun years ago and use it corner loaded in a gym type room underpowered and it is out of this world.  Search for the sub shootouts on here and read some of the info on these things.  The best thing you can know about a horn is that it is different then a reflex box, it isn't about how much power it can take or any of that.  It is about the design and what it is made to do.  The cab itself amplifies the sound to a degree, think the cheer cone again, it is just made to sound correct not like a echo cone.

Ask more generic questions, start without brand names.  Most of these pros on here don't care who makes it or if it can be abbreviated with 3 letters.  They will get the most out of whatever gear they have or are provided with.  Start broad and work down to specific questions.  Be willing to be wrong and willing to be open to something you didn't think of because a lot of the time that is where you end up, somewhere you didn't even think of.  If you want to built speakers Art is probably your man to talk to but be ready for any number of options that aren't even on your map yet.

Chris
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 23, 2010, 11:01:59 pm
Sorry Charlie; I did not mean to get you in a bunch.
As I said I am new here and know I have a lot to learn.
In reply to your points.
1 I have not bin able get spell check to work in IE from the Open Office data base.
2 I dont know how pyro musical program material differs from any other program material, other than a lot of back ground noise.
3 "Why is he so impulsive?" He purchase the speakers under advice of someone that clamed thay knew what thay were doing and is no longer with the company. I am trying to help him pick up the peaces and come up with somthing good.
4 "You claim he has two different HF drivers and horns?" I claimed?
Do you think I am lying? The original plan was to use the two types of HF drivers and two types of LF drivers in 4 or more sets.
5 "You've been given some excellent advice by some seasoned Pros," Yes I know and have had some good offers of assistance
from some nice guys. Most every one agres every speaker disign
is a compromise. Knowing the trade offs will help in getting the right speaker. I am trying to learn about the LAB subs can you help?
Quote:

The best solution...was to enlist someone that could give you (and the Company Owner) some advice before you started on this road of building a System.
I know that and the owner thought he had some good advice, just may not have been the best.
Quote:

If you are so critical as to not wanting to compromise, then you need to spend money
We are willing to spend.
Quote:

Someone needs to stop trying to get something for nothing!

and who would that be?
Thanks Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 23, 2010, 11:14:38 pm
Thanks again Chris; I will spend some more time digging thru the LAB threads, I diffenitly what to learn more about them. Trying to learn as fast as I can so I can make a system this winter. Would you have any links to some good posts for the LAB devlopment? or know ware can I start? Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Charlie Zureki on November 24, 2010, 07:31:31 am
Hello Andrew,

 I'm not in a bunch.. but, I do get a bit pissy when someone asks for help, is given practical advice....then disputes the information they're given.

2.) the spell check is at the top of the body (or blank) that you're typing in.

3.) My Pyro-music question was a bit cheeky... I'm guessing that "Pyro-music" does not differ, or require any special system other than what would be required for a Musical Act, other than possibly some extra subs to handle the enhanced low end boom.

4.) Impulsive....doing or saying something without researching the possible consequences.

 When building a speaker box:
 a) Define the Box with the specs you're looking for.
 b) Find the Box with those specs
 c) Buy the Drivers and components to build & load the box

 NOT...Buy drivers and hope to fit them in a box.

 Instead of building a system... (for someone that has NO clue), it is cheaper, less time consuming, more practical and will provide better results to purchase a speaker system.

 Buying used is an excellent alternative when facing money constraints.

 (But, you said that money is not an issue if results can be had...so, why not purchase and know immediate results?)

5.) No, I don't think you're lying about having two different HF drivers. I think you have NO clue as to why this was an important question. Why would you insist on using these two unmatched drivers?  AND..you never mentioned any drivers (or intentions to purchase)  to handle Low & Mid Frequencies.  

 So...your system will only be comprised of HF drivers and Subs?  (I'm guessing not...)

6.) I am (as others) trying to help you, but you don't seem to understand that you're way over your head. If you need immediate results...then buy a complete system off the shelf.  It's cheaper, it's cheaper even if you're not in a hurry.

 Building speaker boxes to fit any resemblance of a functioning, decent sounding system costs money, takes time, and requires patience and a lot of research.

7.) Quoting myself... "Someone needs to stop trying to get something for nothing"....  and quoting you..... "who would that be?"

  I was referring to your boss mostly... HE should have bought a system. He should have paid someone for PROPER ADVICE.  As a "business man" he should have known better...you don't get something for nothing.

 What I don't understand ...is that you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth... Sure, everyone wants to save money, but, when you have no clue as to all of the parameters of building any speaker box...then, one would/should purchase.

 And, since you've said money is not a problem ...then buy what you need....and you'll need a lot of speaker boxes to cover 1000 people outdoors.

 Hammer
   

Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 24, 2010, 10:34:27 am
Charlie;
The spell check at the top of the blank is not working for me, maybe it needs a "WORD" data base two. I will try and do better.
I know I ask alot of questions but I did not mean to dispute anyone or any of the answers I was given. Sorry if I came off that way. I know I have alot to learn and appreciate your help.
"Pyro-music" should be typical music reproduction, but the setting may differ from a typical live band setting. Mainly dont need to worry about rear cancellation.
Quote:

Impulsive....doing or saying something without researching the possible consequences.
like I said at the time he was going on someone elses word.
Quote:

When building a speaker box:
a) Define the Box with the specs you're looking for.
b) Find the Box with those specs
c) Buy the Drivers and components to build & load the box

Thats what I am trying to do now.
Quote:

Instead of building a system... (for someone that has NO clue), it is cheaper, less time consuming, more practical and will provide better results to purchase a speaker system.

He was told this buy everyone after we fould out. We did not know untill the speakers showed up at the door.
Quote:

(But, you said that money is not an issue if results can be had...so, why not purchase and know immediate results?)
One because he is stuck with the speakers and two I am still trying to learn the best way to go.
Quote:

No, I don't think you're lying about having two different HF drivers. I think you have NO clue as to why this was an important question. Why would you insist on using these two unmatched drivers? AND..you never mentioned any drivers (or intentions to purchase) to handle Low & Mid Frequencies.

I did not "insist" on anything, I just stated what he has. 18" for subs, 15" for mids, 2" and 1" for Highs. If we can use them good. If we decide somthing else is better we will use that and sell the ones he has.
Quote:

 I am (as others) trying to help you, but you don't seem to understand that you're way over your head. If you need immediate results...then buy a complete system off the shelf. It's cheaper, it's cheaper even if you're not in a hurry.

Buying off the shelf would be alot easier for me but not an option.
Quote:

Building speaker boxes to fit any resemblance of a functioning, decent sounding system costs money, takes time, and requires patience and a lot of research.
Which we are willing to do.
Quote:

I was referring to your boss mostly... HE should have bought a system. He should have paid someone for PROPER ADVICE. As a "business man" he should have known better...you don't get something for nothing.
I think he knows that but he got screwed by the guy that started this, we need to pick up the pieces.
Quote:

What I don't understand ...is that you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth... Sure, everyone wants to save money, but, when you have no clue as to all of the parameters of building any speaker box...then, one would/should purchase.

both sides of my mouth? Some how I think I can learn! Should I not even try?
Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Charlie Zureki on November 24, 2010, 01:41:44 pm
Andrew Gregory wrote on Wed, 24 November 2010 09:34



Quote:

Mainly dont need to worry about rear cancellation
.



  That would be the least of your worries anyhow.





Quote:

One because he is stuck with the speakers and two I am still trying to learn the best way to go.




  We have been trying to tell you the "best way to go".



Quote:

If we decide somthing else is better we will use that and sell the ones he has.

 
   Confused

Quote:

Buying off the shelf would be alot easier for me but not an option.

 
  Either way... you're (boss) going to make a sacrifice.

 
Quote:

I think he knows that but he got screwed by the guy that started this, we need to pick up the pieces.




  Seems like he's either unreasonable and won't face the truth, or that YOU can't be honest with him..? Either way HE LOSES.




both sides of my mouth? Some how I think I can learn! Should I not even try?
Andy[/quote]

   Learning ?... means being able to freely admit that you're over your head (that includes to the "boss" too).

  Learning means...when you ask for opinions and they all start sounding the same....that they're probably very good opinions.

Learning means your course must be flexible and change from time to time in order to meet the most important goal.

  Good Luck,
  Hammer
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on November 24, 2010, 02:58:43 pm
Charlie Zureki wrote on Wed, 24 November 2010 12:41

Andrew Gregory wrote on Wed, 24 November 2010 09:34



Quote:

Mainly dont need to worry about rear cancellation
.



  That would be the least of your worries anyhow.





Quote:

One because he is stuck with the speakers and two I am still trying to learn the best way to go.




  We have been trying to tell you the "best way to go".



Quote:

If we decide somthing else is better we will use that and sell the ones he has.

 
   Confused

Quote:

Buying off the shelf would be alot easier for me but not an option.

 
  Either way... you're (boss) going to make a sacrifice.

 
Quote:

I think he knows that but he got screwed by the guy that started this, we need to pick up the pieces.




  Seems like he's either unreasonable and won't face the truth, or that YOU can't be honest with him..? Either way HE LOSES.




both sides of my mouth? Some how I think I can learn! Should I not even try?
Andy


   Learning ?... means being able to freely admit that you're over your head (that includes to the "boss" too).

  Learning means...when you ask for opinions and they all start sounding the same....that they're probably very good opinions.

Learning means your course must be flexible and change from time to time in order to meet the most important goal.

  Good Luck,
  Hammer [/quote]
Well thanks for your help, I am learning and I will let you know how I make out. Happy Holidays Andy
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 25, 2010, 09:40:22 pm
Andrew Gregory wrote on Tue, 23 November 2010 14:47

Chris; Thanks for your thoughts. I understand what you are saying, but I gess I am hung up on the 12" drivers being a compermise or a trade off some how. I do not what to copermise. How many would I need for a football field? I am not convinced thay are the best solution for my applicatoin and am trying to keep all opshoins open at this time. Andy




Deviating from a proven design is a compromise.  Covering a football field with <40Hz is a formidable task, especially if you want to do it evenly.

Listen to Art.
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 25, 2010, 10:17:25 pm
Hi Andrew-

Aside from being penny-wise and pound-foolish, perhaps your employer should consider hiring out sound for his shows.  Sound for fireworks is one of the things we do (but I'm 800 miles away, so I won't be soliciting your RFQ...) and part of why we get hired is so the pyro guys/gals don't have to mess with audio.  It seems to be a sufficient challenge to get the mortar field wired, continuity-checked and then deal with the choreographer's changes to the shoot. "Hey, I brought 8 more 12" shells, put them in cue #341..."

See if you can return the Eminence products your boss got on ill-advice.  Pay the restocking fee or consider selling the lot of them on eBay.

Why?  Because the chances of you learning enough to design an adequate speaker system in the natural life time of a small furry mammal is pretty low.  I'm not saying this to dis you, but pointing out that there are guys who've been doing it for a decade and are still in the early stages of their design careers.

By hiring out, you can listen to a number of systems and observe how they pack, handle, power up, and sound.  You can make an informed decision about how a given model suits (or doesn't suit) your needs.  An alternative is to rent "stacks and racks" from a provider, and apply the same powers of observation.

As a parting question, why is your boss so intent on providing audio?  Has he been burned (no pun intended) by providers hired by his clients?  If so, he needs to understand that there is far more to sound than simply have components in plywood boxes and power amps.... and the failure of the provider to understand those things is likely why he/his clients got short changed in the past.  Coming into audio as a n00b isn't going to enhance his reputation; to the contrary, screwing it up when he does it only leaves him holding the entire bag.  Just some things to think about.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on December 01, 2010, 08:18:00 pm
Tim; Thanks for your input.
Quote:

"Hey, I brought 8 more 12" shells, put them in cue #341..."


Now thats funny but should not happen on a show choreographed to
music.
Quote:

By hiring out

We have been hiring out. Sometimes its OK and sometimes it is a disaster.
Quote:

As a parting question, why is your boss so intent on providing audio?

For a lot of reasons;
1. To try and make some money.
2. So we have control over what we need.
3. So we can provide a complete package.
4. To provide Pyromusicals for a more reasonable cost.

As the economy gose down hill we need to provide more economical
show packages for our customers and we make good money off Pyromusicals.

I am getting help from other forums. One way or the other we will have a sound system. Thanks Andy

Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 01, 2010, 09:06:16 pm
Hi Andrew-

I'm surprised you guys can't "partner up" with a sound provider or 2 and get the consistency you want.  There are obviously providers in your area who are missing an opportunity to serve you and your clients.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Speaker design project for Pyromusicals
Post by: Andrew Gregory on December 01, 2010, 10:10:24 pm
Tim; It would be nice if we could, but we could not get anyone to commit to our show dates at a reasonable price. One of our pyros even works with one of the big guys in the Phily area and we still could not work out a deal.
Some customers what us to use an existing system (band/stage/PA) to try and save money those are the worst. Andy