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Title: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on November 02, 2010, 12:08:32 pm
I have a small bar and grill I am working with that wants to upgrade their PA to accommodate bands as well as in-house DJ. We would be the house band and play the majority of the time. The idea is to have bands only bring their mics, stands, and cables as well as their own instruments and back line.  The bands would have to run their own sound from the booth next to the stage.

Here is the room setup:

- 50' W x 150' L  room with bar running length of room
- Ceiling height is approx 12ft
- Ideally mostly dance floor coverage only
- Glass windows along dining booths (run entire length of room)
- Mirror wall behind stage (ugh)
- Power outlets are available along ceiling where eye bolts are located

Existing equipment:

- 2 Peavey Impulse 1012
- 2 Peavey SP Dual 18" Subwoofers (Black Widow Loaded)
- 2 Peavey GPS 3500 amplifiers
- Peavey VSX Crossover
- Denon DJ Mixer

My thought is to use the existing Impulse 1012 as monitors and just rotate them back toward stage.  They are in an ideal location and it would help with stage room since it's somewhat cramped.  Now to just add mixer, EQ, and flyable mains with a somewhat narrow horizontal dispersion.

Here are my thoughts:

- Peavey QF15 (Dual 15 band with FLS) for monitors.  I know it's not a 31 band but I have to keep it simple
- A&H Zed 22 with FX
- Mackie HD 1221 (rotate horn for 50h x 90v) 90v maybe too much?
- Rack with security panel for everything; have one or two rack mount power strips at top
- Maybe a driverack or something similar for crossover, limiting and EQ on FOH

Budget $3500 - $4000

Suggestions or ideas for this setup?

index.php/fa/33492/0/
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Dick Rees on November 02, 2010, 01:45:17 pm
OMG......another Good Samaritan trying to help out a poor bar owner.

Do a search on this topic.  It has been done to death.  
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Charlie Zureki on November 02, 2010, 02:45:24 pm
 Hello Jonathon,

Designing and installing a Sound System is not for the unexperienced.  There are too many factors involved in order to try and glean the complete information from the Net.

Any Sound Systems I've ever seen/heard that were installed from an amateur, is exactly what I expected ... bad gear choices, poorly installed, poorly optimized ... netting a waste of time and money.

Please remember this statement.."a good Sound System sounds good, and yet, is not immediately noticeable but, a poor Sounding System IS immediately noticeable and IS immediately annoying".

And remember... "Designing a good Sounding System IS Rocket Science". Unless you understand this.... your results will be a poor System.

 Hire someone that has experience in Designing and Installing a Sound System.

 Hammer
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on November 02, 2010, 06:34:31 pm
Perhaps I should have been less informative about the setup and just asked What PA for a bar? Generic questions seem to receive better responses here.

It is a forum after all, thanks for the input.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Dick Rees on November 02, 2010, 06:43:22 pm
Jonathan....

Nothing really personal, but after having been in the music "business" as a performer for 35+ years I have seen many good people in your position being taken advantage of by club owners.  For a regular place to play you will be giving him the benefit of doing the work he should do for himself for free or a cheap rate, taking the blame for anything that goes wrong and having the responsibility of maintenance and repairs on a system in which you have no ownership.

Equipment isn't the only thing that gets "used".

The voice of experience.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Phil LaDue on November 02, 2010, 07:54:09 pm
I hope these eyebolts are forged and the chain is rated properly.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Gene Hardage on November 02, 2010, 11:05:27 pm
Dick Rees wrote on Tue, 02 November 2010 18:43

Jonathan....

Nothing really personal, but after having been in the music "business" as a performer for 35+ years I have seen many good people in your position being taken advantage of by club owners.  For a regular place to play you will be giving him the benefit of doing the work he should do for himself for free or a cheap rate, taking the blame for anything that goes wrong and having the responsibility of maintenance and repairs on a system in which you have no ownership.

Equipment isn't the only thing that gets "used".

The voice of experience.



Agreed +1 etc.


The room description is a typical club - lot's of glass and a few dinosaur pieces of equipment that have somehow survived a DJ.  The other bands will do their best to blow things up for you when they get their chance.  The room will hurt people unless the owner reaches in his pocket to buy some kind of acoustic treatment.  On a constructive note - be wary of simply turning those hanging Peaveys around to use as monitors.  I've seen this done before and sometimes the angle they project from can cause monitor feed back issues regardless of whatever slash-n-hack EQ is implemented.   Good luck with the house band gig - we need more of these.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Brad Weber on November 03, 2010, 07:11:38 am
Agree with what the others have already said. Such situations are rather notorious for trying to do things as cheap as possible and then the people who tried to help taking the blame when the results are less then hoped.

A mix position beside the band so that what the person mixing hears is nothing like what the audience hears.  A 15 band EQ on monitors to "keep it simple".  Using the existing speakers located to the sides out in the audience area for "monitors".  Planning on flown, powered mains where there is likely no power in place for them.  Doing nothing to improve the poor stage acoustics.  All of these suggest more doing something rather than doing what should be done.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on November 03, 2010, 09:21:10 am
So there goes the dog with it's tail tucked underneath.

I've been on the PSW forums long enough to understand the philosophy only the experienced can convey.  That's why I like the information I gain here. I really do appreciate the input.

It also appears that a permanent install will not be the best solution here. I stopped by the venue yesterday evening to evaluate once more; good thing! Coincidence; Maybe? There is a big screen that is rolled down behind the stage during big games and the projector is located stage front where eye bolts are positioned.  There's also a huge A/C duct just in front of where the proposed mains were to be hung.  Needless to say, the speakers would be in field of view of screen once positioned correctly. Another problem, there is no room behind the sound booth for a mixer none the less it would be a pain in the ass to go around to adjust. It just won't work with existing setup. There is no room for FOH out front nor will it be practical since there is no one to run it.

I know the owner is at least interested in investing in a PA for bands. He wants to make it easier for bands to more less show up, bring only the minimum equipment required and play. Yet he also wants something that doesn't have to be moved every time with maybe the exception of stage monitors. I certainly understand and appreciate his thoughts and I most definitely concur. Besides, it's also a good bargaining tool for bringing bands in.

So what is a good solution? Should I just leave the existing equipment as is and use it only for DJ or should I try and utilize some of it? I want to at least give him an idea of what it going to cost to do it "reasonably priced" right. I'm all ears.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Bill Hinds on November 03, 2010, 09:34:42 am
I would tell him to save his money until he can afford to do it correctly.  His budget needs to be multiplied by at least 5x's.  You can tell him this in a positive mannor as he will only be throwing his money away if he only spends $4000 - $5000 as he nor any of the bands will be happy with the results. In my opinion to do what he wants to do and be able to negotiate a good price with quality bands he his going to have to spend between $25,000 - $50,000.  Sounds like he needs to re-configure some things before he even installs a descent House PA.  

Bottom line, if he spends $5000 his goals will not be reached and he will be very dis-satisfied and wonder why fis goals are not being met.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Charlie Zureki on November 03, 2010, 09:51:41 am
Jonathan Ladner wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 08:21

So there goes the dog with it's tail tucked underneath.

I've been on the PSW forums long enough to understand the philosophy only the experienced can convey.  That's why I like the information I gain here. I really do appreciate the input.

It also appears that a permanent install will not be the best solution here. I stopped by the venue yesterday evening to evaluate once more; good thing! Coincidence; Maybe? There is a big screen that is rolled down behind the stage during big games and the projector is located stage front where eye bolts are positioned.  There's also a huge A/C duct just in front of where the proposed mains were to be hung.  Needless to say, the speakers would be in field of view of screen once positioned correctly. Another problem, there is no room behind the sound booth for a mixer none the less it would be a pain in the ass to go around to adjust. It just won't work with existing setup. There is no room for FOH out front nor will it be practical since there is no one to run it.

I know the owner is at least interested in investing in a PA for bands. He wants to make it easier for bands to more less show up, bring only the minimum equipment required and play. Yet he also wants something that doesn't have to be moved every time with maybe the exception of stage monitors. I certainly understand and appreciate his thoughts and I most definitely concur. Besides, it's also a good bargaining tool for bringing bands in.

So what is a good solution? Should I just leave the existing equipment as is and use it only for DJ or should I try and utilize some of it? I want to at least give him an idea of what it going to cost to do it "reasonably priced" right. I'm all ears.




 Hello Jonathan,

 Unfortunately, you're experiencing what most of us that do installs, have known for many years. That the Bar Owner wants the best of both Worlds. He wants to generate income from hosting Music Acts, yet, he does not want to spend any money to make it a comfortable, easy place for Musicians to perform.

  His wanting to be a sports bar, host a DJ, and provide Live Music Acts in his venue is a great idea, except that they all tend to suffer in a venue that does not have the capability to provide comfortably, for all three forms of Entertainment.

  Many Bars are limited in their ability to provide for a clean, confortable, and appropriate setup based on the size and layout of the building.  This Bar's layout is no exception.

  In order for the Bar to be viable performance venue, the Bar Owner will need to make concessions. Hiring a Professional Sound/Video Company would be the first step in making a concession, something he will probably not do.  

  My advice is to find another place to perform, somewhere, where Live Performance is important to the Club Owner. You'll be happy, the Group will be happy and hopefully, the Bar Owner will be happy to have you and your Group perform.

 Hammer

 ps. If I had a dollar for every poorly "designed" Live Performance Venue....it still wouldn't equal the amount of Bar/Club Owners that have high expectations and tight pocket-books.

 
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Dick Rees on November 03, 2010, 09:56:02 am
Perhaps the best a venue can do to make it easy for bands is to provide clean, adequate power which is band only.....no sharing circuits with restaurant equipment, easy in/out, parking, case storage, etc.  Maybe others can suggest infrastructure/service issues which would make bands love to come there to play.  I think most bands will have the proper gear specific to their sound/use which would be hard for a venue to cover for everyone without compromises here and there.

Just being there to guide him through the process of developing a plan and finding a professional to implement it is enough of a job and one for which you seem suited.

Good luck.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on November 03, 2010, 10:30:42 am
I must say the venue is very ideal in those requirements; maybe not so much acoustics though. There are 6 separate circuits at the stage 2 of which are used by the DJ; There is a storage room next to the stage; Parking is just outside the entrance doors with a separate entrance with ramp to the stage front.

We would be the house band playing there at least 2 weekends out of the month. It would really be nice to show up and play in less than a hour on good PA.

I think I could convince him to spend more for the right setup. The occupancy code for this venue is just over 100 peeps and stays packed on weekends. He shouldn't have a problem with this investment.  They do good business during weekday and evening. They have a subscription to every good sporting event offered and food is great. The business has good potential.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Dick Rees on November 03, 2010, 12:00:46 pm
Heavy curtains which could be drawn over the mirror wall behind the stage would be a must-have.  As it appears from your description this would be a major PITA.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on November 03, 2010, 12:04:14 pm
Actually pondered the idea and would be a simple fix.  The mirror looks good and gives an appearance of spaciousness but creates sound reflection havoc on stage.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Dick Rees on November 03, 2010, 12:07:42 pm
Glass and mirrors behind the stage are the death of coherent sound.

Here's a link to some usable material:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/44676/19468/
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on November 05, 2010, 12:00:52 am
Jonathan Ladner wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 08:21

Besides, it's also a good bargaining tool for bringing bands in.

No, it isn't.  Here is what happens when you install an under-budget PA system in a small bar/nightclub:
* good bands will no longer play there because the club expects them to play for cheaper
* shit bands will jump at the chance because they are too disorganized to hire or purchase PA, they will not care about the quality of the gear because they don't know anything and do not care about the quality of their performance, and the club will quickly become known for bad live music
* the PA system will be used by idiot after idiot, without anyone returning it to a baseline configuration for the next user, maintaining the gear, or making sure it isn't abused by that DJ the club owner wanted to try off of craigslist one night
* soon, everyone will wonder who is to blame for the shit PA system being inadequate when it was installed and total shit after it was reconfigured and abused by various users
* and the person they blame will be you

Don't touch it until the owner realizes that they need to spend at least $15k-$20k for a decent system.

Suggest they spend the $4k budget they have on lighting instead.  If they do that right and realize the benefits, they will have an easier time accepting that a $20k PA system will be a good investment.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Jonathan Ladner on November 05, 2010, 12:41:39 am
Jeff, I concur; that was the point I was trying to make. It wouldn't be an advantage to our band or an asset to the owner if it wasn't done correctly. I mention "our" band only because the proposed setup would have been better than just about anything other local bands would bring. Trust me, I know the demographics of this area.

It also appears that the owner is NOT going to put forth any extra funds in getting an upgrade of any kind and I am glad. I've washed my hands clean on this one and will bring my system when we play and charge the extra required.

Thanks again for all the input.
Title: Re: PA Install for Bar and Grill
Post by: Charlie Zureki on November 05, 2010, 08:33:46 am
Jonathan Ladner wrote on Thu, 04 November 2010 23:41

Jeff, I concur; that was the point I was trying to make. It wouldn't be an advantage to our band or an asset to the owner if it wasn't done correctly. I mention "our" band only because the proposed setup would have been better than just about anything other local bands would bring. Trust me, I know the demographics of this area.

It also appears that the owner is NOT going to put forth any extra funds in getting an upgrade of any kind and I am glad. I've washed my hands clean on this one and will bring my system when we play and charge the extra required.

Thanks again for all the input.



 Hello Jonathon,

  I hope that you didn't expend too much effort in trying to convince this Bar owner that investing in a Sound System and acoustic treatments for his club would be a wise business investment.

  Although we tried to warn you of exactly what would happen, I suppose you had to try..."nothing ventured, nothing gained".

  Good Luck, and keep your Groups playing options open to other clubs too.
 
 Hammer

ps. I wouldn't be surprised if this guy doesn't have some sound gear installed in a few months....but, it'll be HIS IDEA and it'll be crap, because he won't do it correctly.