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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => Installed Sound/Contracting FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Glennn Carolan on October 22, 2010, 12:06:08 pm

Title: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Glennn Carolan on October 22, 2010, 12:06:08 pm
Looking for suggestions for stand alone products to replace an existing 8x24 DSP Matrix for an auditorium.  tri amped LCR, near, subs, delays, rooms feeds, monitors, assitive listening etc.

Currently looking at the Ashly ne24.24M

Whats else is out there?  



Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Al Clayton on October 22, 2010, 12:38:57 pm
The ne24.24m is only capable of 24 i/o's. So the most outputs you could do with 8 inputs is 16.

Not sure, but I think you could get to 8x24 using the ne processors with cobranet interface.

Soundweb?

Symmetrix?

I like the Ashly. Easy to use, sound good, good price point. I've used a lot of them and they have been very reliable  
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 22, 2010, 12:41:09 pm
I prefer the Bi amp Audia line of DSP's.

But they do not offer a unit that has 32 input/outputs on the same frame-you would have to use an expansion input or output module.

The Ashley you reference will not do 32 channels either (on the single frame)-unless I am missing something.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Glennn Carolan on October 22, 2010, 02:23:04 pm
In reality could get away with 8 IN 13 OUT; current setup has every main/sub/delay speaker with it's own output.

Looking for replacement options, also thoughts/experiences with the Ashly ne or others.



Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Peter Etheredge on October 22, 2010, 03:36:42 pm
Glennn Carolan wrote on Fri, 22 October 2010 11:06

Looking for suggestions for stand alone products to replace an existing 8x24 DSP Matrix for an auditorium.  tri amped LCR, near, subs, delays, rooms feeds, monitors, assitive listening etc.

Currently looking at the Ashly ne24.24M

Whats else is out there?  






Just commented about this in another thread actaully but I use the DBX SC-32 (or 64) when I need more ins/outs than the Ashly can offer.  In fact we just used one on an auditorium project.

http://www.dbxpro.com/SC32/index.php

Nice and easy to use.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Adam Kane on October 22, 2010, 06:52:43 pm
If you can get by with 8x16, the ne24.24 is a nice, easy to use unit that I have found to be very reliable. I can think of a couple that have been turned on 24/7 for a few years now (one under pretty harsh conditions) and have not had a single issue...typical of my experiences with Ashly stuff in general.

The dbx SC-32 that Peter mentioned isn't a bad way to go either.

There's a lot of CobraNet stuff out there (BSS Soundweb, QSC qscontrol, Biamp, etc) that could get the job done with multiple units. I like the flexibility and room for expansion that the platform offers, but the budget isn't there for every job.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Brad Weber on October 22, 2010, 10:13:19 pm
What is the existing processing?  The dbx SC 32, like the Ashly ne24.24M, basically provide input blocks with some processing options, a matrix router and output blocks with some processing options.  That can be quite different than the completely open processing, routing and mixing architecture some of the other options noted employ.  These units may work fine for your application but you would probably want to be sure that whatever you select provides the internal routing, processing, mixing, control, monitoring, etc. that you potentially need or desire.

If you have anything other than analog mic or line level inputs and outputs that could also affect the potential options.  For example, needing to support AES digital inputs and/or outputs could eliminate many products.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Craig Hauber on October 23, 2010, 04:15:07 pm
I've found that moving the tri-amped LCR PA to it's own processor is much more economical than trying to find a large-frame solution.
Use an Ashly for your primary routing matrix then send only 3 outputs from it to another unit (or multiple units) doing proper crossover and alignment for the speakers.  

(I prefer to use the speaker manufacturers DSP for this anyways as you don't have to try to translate DSP settings from their recommended processor to your 3rd party routing matrix)

The only caveat is the lack of aes/ebu digital capability out of the ashly, I do like to make that between-processor link digital.

Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Brad Weber on October 24, 2010, 09:16:19 am
I also often use the approach of a 'system' processor and separate 'speaker' processors.  Another advantage in some applications is that you can then give access to the 'system' processor so users can adjust overall EQ, relative levels, etc. without giving access to the 'speaker' processing that incorporates the speaker and array processing and limiting.

If it is a digital console then I also agree that trying to stay digital through the processing is desirable to avoid the additional A/D and D/A conversion that would be required at the DSP devices for analog signals.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Glennn Carolan on October 25, 2010, 10:10:41 am
The existing processing is an 11+ year old peavey media matrix 48 in/outs.  

As far as speaker brand specific all of the speakers are EAW, so EAW processing, or confidence in Ashly as well.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Brad Weber on October 25, 2010, 01:07:26 pm
Glennn Carolan wrote on Mon, 25 October 2010 10:10

The existing processing is an 11+ year old peavey media matrix 48 in/outs.

So you'd be replacing a totally programmable, open architecture system.  Do you happen to know the current programming?  The reason I ask is that although in most cases the days of having to verify sufficient DSP capability are past, you do sometimes see specific processing, such as automixers or matrix mixers (which are different than matrix routers), or user created 'blocks' for things like custom input processors or look-ahead limiters used in the processing that is programmed.  If you need or want to keep or incorporate any of these virtual devices or programming then you need to make sure that whatever device you choose supports them.  Since most of the DSP programming software is readily downloaded, it may not be a bad idea to create at least a conceptual program to verify that you can do what you want prior to making a decision on the hardware.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Glennn Carolan on October 25, 2010, 02:10:02 pm
Yes, I know the current programming and it's not anything fancy, the open architecture processing is not being heavily utilized.  Most of it is just for routing and normal speaker end processing/eq/limit/comp/delay.  

I'm not sure what you mean by Matrix Mixing, compared to Matrix Routing?  It all seems like routing in this programming.  There are 2 mixers within the programing; one for combining LRC feeds for the Assistive Listening, and one for combining 2 feeds into a monitor mix.  There are no auto mixers in this programming.

Duh; What a great idea to download the software and create a conceptual program!  

Still debating on the 2 processor setup as well.  That would  involve two different config sources and config connections, but would have a backup device to produce some audio in case of a failure; after some config changes and wiring.


Still working on this, and I appreciate all of the knowledge and input from this forum!
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Brad Weber on October 25, 2010, 03:17:43 pm
Glennn Carolan wrote on Mon, 25 October 2010 14:10

I'm not sure what you mean by Matrix Mixing, compared to Matrix Routing?

Essentially matrix routing is more like a bunch of switches, a crosspoint is active or not.  Think along the lines of the group and main assignments on the channel of a mixing console, you assign it to an output or not.  In that same context, matrix mixing would be more like aux sends where you can adjust the level for each individual crosspoint and create a unique mix for each output.

Matrix mixing takes greater processing but is nice to have when you need it.  A simple example is if you sum left and right signals to a mono output.  I matrix router would simply route the left and right signals to whatever outputs are desired, if both are selected for an output and both have any of the same content then the resulting combined signal is greater than either source signal.  A matrix mixer would let you adjust the gain of the left and right signals so that where both are routed to the same output the combined signal can have the same level as the source signal.  Or just like aux sends, you may want to create a matrix mix for ALS or overflow or whatever that emphasizes or deemphasizes specific signals, a matrix mixer allows this where a matrix router does not.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Jonathan Kok on October 25, 2010, 11:52:12 pm
Brad Weber wrote on Mon, 25 October 2010 14:17

Glennn Carolan wrote on Mon, 25 October 2010 14:10

I'm not sure what you mean by Matrix Mixing, compared to Matrix Routing?

Essentially matrix routing is more like a bunch of switches, a crosspoint is active or not.  Think along the lines of the group and main assignments on the channel of a mixing console, you assign it to an output or not.  In that same context, matrix mixing would be more like aux sends where you can adjust the level for each individual crosspoint and create a unique mix for each output.

Matrix mixing takes greater processing but is nice to have when you need it.  A simple example is if you sum left and right signals to a mono output.  I matrix router would simply route the left and right signals to whatever outputs are desired, if both are selected for an output and both have any of the same content then the resulting combined signal is greater than either source signal.  A matrix mixer would let you adjust the gain of the left and right signals so that where both are routed to the same output the combined signal can have the same level as the source signal.  Or just like aux sends, you may want to create a matrix mix for ALS or overflow or whatever that emphasizes or deemphasizes specific signals, a matrix mixer allows this where a matrix router does not.

Add to that, Matrix Mixers w/ Delay, and really watch you DSP power disappear Wink  

Actually...reading through the spec (LCR w/ Delays), this is something you might want to do.  This allows you to not only adjust the individual levels going to every box, but also the delay time of that feed.  So, for your far-left-rear-fill box, you can both delay and balance the Left, Center, and Right feeds going to it (if any; no idea what the shape/size of your room is).

Currently fighting (and admittedly, losing) this battle with Biamp Nexia...too much I want to do, with too little processing power.  Stupid budget constraints...
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Glennn Carolan on October 27, 2010, 04:45:51 pm
I downloaded the Ashly software and configured it to match what we have in routing/mixing/speaker configuration in about an hour.  I like the fact that i can set an IP address for ethernet control, I suppose that's fairly common with decent DSP these days.  

If 2 or more inputs are routed to an output - there is a mixer available to set the input levels for that output - creating a unique mix for that output (matrix mixing)- which is what the mixers within our current system do (matrix routing vs matrix mixing).  

There are only 2 items I don't see available that exist in our current system.

1:an option for adding a Comp to each input.  Students/inexperienced people generally use the system.  There is Limiting per output but nothing for the inputs, unless I'm missing something.

2:no Graphic eq.  Our current system has a graphic on each input.  There is probably enough para eq to do most anything the room needs - probably not a concern.



Any other 8x16 suggestions?

Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Glennn Carolan on October 28, 2010, 08:57:32 am
And the LCR mixer & snake is all analog, nothing digital in this case.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Chuck Fudge on October 28, 2010, 02:08:04 pm
I use the lectrosonics 1624.  16 in/24 out.  Works real nice and uses laptop software for setup.  They have a new line of processors out that have expanded capabilities.  We use one 1624 for page/program/hearing impaired for auditorium, and page/program of public concourses.
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Langston Holland on November 02, 2010, 11:18:08 am
Glennn wrote:

Any other 8x16 suggestions?


Very definitely.

(2) EAW UX8800 processors linked via U-Net using an Ethernet cable. This will give you (8) inputs routable to any of the (16) outputs. If the EAW loudspeakers you are using have "focused" presets available, this will result in a very noticeable improvement in the sound of the loudspeakers. If your loudspeakers do not have focused presets, then another solution will yield a better bang for the buck ratio.

If you have to deal with complex I/O, mic inputs on the processor, unknown system additions in the future, etc. take Brad's advice and Ivan's implication very seriously. Nothing can approach the flexibility of a "free wire" type processor. In my experience, the fuss about hardware DSP power limitations is incorrect and a result of the end user setting up the processor inefficiently (analogous to a beginning programmer using 50 lines of code when an experienced person achieves the same result in 20 lines).
Title: Re: 8x24 DSP Matrix products
Post by: Josh Millward on November 11, 2010, 11:42:06 am
Glennn Carolan wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 16:45

Any other 8x16 suggestions?



Sure... have you considered using a new MediaMatrix product?

A new NION nX could easily be loaded with a line input card and three line output cards to provide you an 8x24 system in one 2RU frame with integrated GPIO and network control. This is a nice system that will allow a lot of room for future upgrades and expansions, if necessary.

Of course if you don't want to specify what your signal flow is, or be able to build custom devices, use NWare Kiosk to allow real time control of your system, use Python scripts, use FIR filtering, then a DSP processor is just a DSP processor and any one will do...

Sorry, I'm a little biased since I work for MediaMatrix... but I'd think if you like using MediaMatrix and it has proven to be reliable over the last 11 years, why move to something else?