Post by: Ben Lagman on April 04, 2010, 07:59:52 pm
I'd mainly be using them for parties, and medium sized meetings.
Post by: Dick Rees on April 04, 2010, 08:09:35 pm
Other
Sound
Equipment
Post by: John B. Miller on April 04, 2010, 08:42:57 pm
You won't find many folks with good things to say about Bose equipment on this forum. It simply doesn't work for most pro applications, for too many reasons to go into here. Their marketing is great, but IMO, the performance for the money doesn't hold up to many, many other available products out there.
Best of luck!
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 04, 2010, 08:44:16 pm
Yep, that's all you need. Fans will adore you, and women will swoon in your presence because of the heavenly sounds coming from your Bose. 500 people? No problem! 1000? Sure! 10,000? Of course! It's Bose, it's all you'll ever need. Be comforted. They cost more because we know whats best for you.
Post by: Tim A Perry on April 04, 2010, 09:06:17 pm
good sounding bose 802 / drink holder for party of eight.
Post by: Rob Timmerman on April 04, 2010, 09:09:26 pm
However, looking at the datasheet , you could get comparable output from something like the EV ZX1 plus a small sub. Even if you double up on the ZX1 (for coverage or output), add a sub or 2, and add amplification and system processing, you're probably well under the price of the Bose product.
Ultimately, it's your money, but for a general-purpose system, you'll likely get more bang for your buck elsewhere.
Post by: John Norris on April 04, 2010, 11:41:51 pm
Post by: Josh Oswald on April 05, 2010, 12:07:22 am
Save your money.
Post by: Greg Cameron on April 05, 2010, 02:55:31 am
Greg
Post by: Caleb Dick on April 05, 2010, 08:02:32 am
| Greg Cameron wrote on Sun, 04 April 2010 23:55 |
I think one could summarize that in true "pro audio", Bose is a four letter word to many. Greg |
Very true. Kind of like Behringer, but with a brainwashing machine (marketing department) like none other. And many lawyers.
Caleb
Post by: Scott Shaw on April 05, 2010, 08:20:09 am
Post by: Paul Bell on April 05, 2010, 09:00:29 am
Bring
Other
Sound
Equipment
While we were all at Ultra Music Festival in Miami, Doug recommended we try this place in South Beach, Burger and Beer Joint. Great food & beer BUT they had a Bose sound system. It REALLY sounded bad, like they didn't use the required equalizer to make it sound "good".
I do many installations in the NYC area. Many smaller bar clients always ask about Bose and I have to pull them away from it. On many jobs, I'm replacing Bose speakers with something else.
My brother used to work in an appliance and electronics retailer. In the audio listening room, the Bose speakers always sounded the worst yet were the most expensive.
Post by: MartinGajta on April 05, 2010, 07:58:33 pm
and was full and he has two bose sticks.I wasn't there but my friend says that "he did job correctly" (singer who didn't hire all those martins and nexos and vertecs but he did show on his own).Did anybody complain - no.Was it loud enough.Yes it was.
So YES bose sounds good and do job if you did your job properly.
I had 3 pairs of bose 802 and with controllers they sounded ok.ONLY problem that I have with them is that they were old and needed much money for repair(after all there is 48 speaker units in 6 boxes).I'm owner of nexo PS10R2,and they are lighter than bose and much louder,but i can't stack 3 ps10's per side but bose really did good job for me.They are installed in some church now and with subwoofer they continue to work fine,and they don't think that weak point of their system are speakers but CRAPPY YAMAHA powered mixer that is dieing few years although it is 20+years younger than bose.
So gents yes there IS highs in bose (802) and acoustic wave cannon is veery good sounding sub,and good looking for my taste.
And if that box is not ok they wouldn't sell it more than 30 years with only few modifications.
I admire Dr.Amar G.and they marketing department.
Martin Gajta
Post by: Pat Latimer on April 05, 2010, 08:06:32 pm
| MartinGajta wrote on Mon, 05 April 2010 19:58 |
I don't know about your particular model but I'm tired of people who says "Buy Other Sound Equipment" or no highs no lows - must be bose.Few days ago there was some show where one man came with acoustic guitar and his dog in theater and there was 1000 chairs and was full and he has two bose sticks.I wasn't there but my friend says that "he did job correctly" (singer who didn't hire all those martins and nexos and vertecs but he did show on his own).Did anybody complain - no.Was it loud enough.Yes it was. So YES bose sounds good and do job if you did your job properly. I had 3 pairs of bose 802 and with controllers they sounded ok.ONLY problem that I have with them is that they were old and needed much money for repair(after all there is 48 speaker units in 6 boxes).I'm owner of nexo PS10R2,and they are lighter than bose and much louder,but i can't stack 3 ps10's per side but bose really did good job for me.They are installed in some church now and with subwoofer they continue to work fine,and they don't think that weak point of their system are speakers but CRAPPY YAMAHA powered mixer that is dieing few years although it is 20+years younger than bose. So gents yes there IS highs in bose (802) and acoustic wave cannon is veery good sounding sub,and good looking for my taste. And if that box is not ok they wouldn't sell it more than 30 years with only few modifications. I admire Dr.Amar G.and they marketing department. Martin Gajta |
You Sir are definitely in the minority. I've heard three or four of those stick rigs that sounded, well, like sticks/shit.
Good Luck with the Bose.
Post by: Rob Timmerman on April 05, 2010, 08:40:45 pm
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/130979/108/
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/19909/17951 3/108/
Post by: Art Welter on April 05, 2010, 08:45:14 pm
| Pat Latimer wrote on Mon, 05 April 2010 18:06 | ||
You Sir are definitely in the minority. I've heard three or four of those stick rigs that sounded, well, like sticks/shit. Good Luck with the Bose. |
I have heard selections from every major speaker manufacturer sound like crap, and sound quite good, Bose included. The talent in front of the microphone and mixing desk usually plays the larger role in that perception.
That said, there are mini line arrays sticks available from several companies that outperform the Bose sticks and cost less.
115 dB at one meter is not hard to beat.
Art Welter
Post by: Pat Latimer on April 05, 2010, 09:11:34 pm
| Art Welter wrote on Mon, 05 April 2010 20:45 | ||||
I have heard selections from every major speaker manufacturer sound like crap, and sound quite good, Bose included. The talent in front of the microphone and mixing desk usually plays the larger role in that perception. That said, there are mini line arrays sticks available from several companies that outperform the Bose sticks and cost less. 115 dB at one meter is not hard to beat. Art Welter |
I have to agree with your first sentiment but not having heard the mini line arrays from other manufacturers I'll take your word for it.
+1 on the talent in front of the mic and behind the desk.
Post by: Dick Rees on April 05, 2010, 09:18:37 pm
I have also used Bose equipment if it was the house system and made it work.
All that said, Bose would be at the bottom of my list not so much because I would consider it incapable of the job, but for the fact that it costs too much for what you get and what you get isn't as much or as useful as you can get in equipment designed more appropriately for professional sound.
DR
Post by: Doug Sprinthall on April 05, 2010, 09:37:52 pm
What similar mini line array's do you like better than the bose that are less $$?
Just curious.
Post by: Paul Bell on April 05, 2010, 09:59:17 pm
When they first “developed” a remote control, they sent somebody out to buy a universal remote. They opened it up, copied it and made their own. They closed up the one they bought and returned it for a refund.
They vigorously sue anybody using what they claim is their ideas. The sixth order bandpass sub is one that comes to mind.
You can keep your Bose.
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 05, 2010, 10:47:03 pm
If you have too much moral fortitude for selling used cars, you could always work for Bose!
Post by: Art Welter on April 06, 2010, 02:03:04 pm
| Doug Sprinthall wrote on Mon, 05 April 2010 19:37 |
Art, What similar mini line array's do you like better than the bose that are less $$? Just curious. |
Renkus Heinz, JBL, though they don't have the stick in the base feature.
Post by: Mark Gensman on April 06, 2010, 06:04:17 pm
I don't know about their use for large audiences, but for typical singer/songwriter club gigs, they work very well.
Post by: mark anderson on April 07, 2010, 01:18:18 am
Hard to find but sounds amazingly good.
Post by: Lee Brenkman on April 07, 2010, 12:15:35 pm
| mark anderson wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 22:18 |
http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=71# Hard to find but sounds amazingly good. |
I haven't actually heard this system but given the general quality level I have heard from other Phil Jones designs I'm sure it does sound much better than the Bose sticks and "pseudo subs".
I also looked into the price at one time and complete with amp it costs a LOT more than a pair of the Bose systems or ever four of them.
Edited because I located the price list on the Phil Jones Pure Sound website. The system of two "sticks", two subs and one of their amps comes in at over $13k.
I really think that very few of the people who find the Bose concept appealing will consider spending that much more money.
Post by: Justin Bartlett on April 07, 2010, 01:43:32 pm
Post by: Guy Johnson on April 07, 2010, 02:50:58 pm
Bose continue to innovate and fill many a niche in the market very well. So there.
Brilliant
Original
Sound
Enterprise
Post by: JohnRoss on April 07, 2010, 03:12:11 pm
| Paul Bell wrote on Mon, 05 April 2010 08:00 |
NONONO Dick, it's: Bring Other Sound Equipment |
Thats how I was taught
Post by: Dave Dermont on April 07, 2010, 06:48:47 pm
| Guy Johnson wrote on Wed, 07 April 2010 14:50 |
So easy to knock Bose, but they've done a lot to up the ante on amplified sound. Just remember how the 802s showed up those crappy 12"/horn horrors of yore, before the EV S200 came along. And the 302 sub showed you could get decent bass in small places from small boxes. |
Hey, it's expensive, it MUST be good!
The 802 was popular because their size made them easy to transport. It outperformed some "crappy" boxes, and did it at only five times the price.
When used primarily as a vocal PA, they worked OK. The human voice occupies a relatively narrow section of the audio bandwidth.
In the 80's, when a lot of my friends were "banging their heads", I did quite a few gigs in country clubs and hotel ballrooms with Bose 802s.
| Quote: |
Bose continue to innovate and fill many a niche in the market very well. So there. |
A couple of the niche markets they fill very well is the "products for guys with more money than brains" category and the "stuff for people who have never really heard good sound reinforcement" market.
There greatest "innovation" is their ability to have people give them large sums of money for gear of marginal quality, and have them feel good about it.
I am of the opinion that, for the money, there are a lot of better alternatives than the Bose stick things. If Bose sticks were a few hundred dollars each, they might be worth considering as a possible solution for certain situations. At their current asking price, I can't think of any situation where there is not an alternative product that would both work better and cost less.
If you dig Bose, buy Bose. It aint gonna hurt nobody.
Post by: Guy Johnson on April 07, 2010, 07:24:14 pm
But. Bose 802/302, no matter they were costly – so is a lot of good gear – showed up the crap and utter rubbish stuff that posed as 'professional' gear.
Post by: mark anderson on April 07, 2010, 07:59:44 pm
Post by: Gary Perrett on April 08, 2010, 12:02:17 pm
The guy who has these is a dealer.. and has a pair with 4 subs. He plays solo, hosts a "jam" and plays in a 'Journey' like band. I also do sound for this band in larger venues and outdoor shows...I also play the same rooms with other bands and DJ/KJ apps...
My impressions? Harsh when pushed even a little. Ya, the subs are small, but ineffective for anything more than acoustic gigs, even with 4. I think it's ridiculous to even discuss them for a small band. Maybe a jazz trio, or acoustic group with the system in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing, but not a live rock band. I have heard them several times with the above mentioned band and you simply can't hear the vocals, there is no separation or clarity for the instruments, it just kind of sounds like a background din, or as mentioned, when pushed harsh and nasal. It might be good for those that just came to the bar to talk and mingle, but getting the message across ain't happening.
They have even resorted to using a pair of BEH 15" powered crap slingers to try and get the vocals out.
These are typical users that don't have a clue about sound, and they just plug in their BEH mixer and let her fly...it just doesn't fly very well, or far.
NOT a Bose fan...
G
Post by: Stavross (Sam Buck) on April 08, 2010, 12:22:45 pm
| Gary Perrett wrote on Thu, 08 April 2010 11:02 |
I have heard the L1 system in several applications. An intimate lounge acoustic setup, and the same location as sound reinforcement for a small rock band, and several other locations as primary reinforcement for a Journey tribute band. The guy who has these is a dealer.. and has a pair with 4 subs. He plays solo, hosts a "jam" and plays in a 'Journey' like band. |
Arch Allies?
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on April 08, 2010, 12:59:10 pm
| Guy Johnson wrote on Wed, 07 April 2010 19:24 |
I know nothing about the stick things. Nothing. But. Bose 802/302, no matter they were costly – so is a lot of good gear – showed up the crap and utter rubbish stuff that posed as 'professional' gear. |
Sorry, but how can you make that statement? During the mid to late '70's, for instance, a Northwest JBL would blow the doors off any 802 for SPL, fidelity, and power sensitivity. 802's were terribly power hungry, bandwidth limited products - regardless of whether you had their active equalizer box in series with the signal or not. Dave D is right that their portability is what sold them, but every group I personally knew that owned them couldn't wait to get their hands on better sounding, more efficient, rigs. Pushed hard, 802's and 302 subs simply crumble sonically - every time.
While I do agree that 802's have their place, to say that they blew the doors off of other "established" pro audio products is just not so.
Respectfully,
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on April 08, 2010, 01:57:33 pm
I don't think I ever heard those words pass anyone's lips back then.....unless they had a hernia.
Post by: Guy Johnson on April 08, 2010, 03:49:00 pm
| Mike {AB} Butler wrote on Thu, 08 April 2010 11:59 | ||
Sorry, but how can you make that statement? During the mid to late '70's, for instance, a Northwest JBL would blow the doors off any 802 for SPL, fidelity, and power sensitivity. 802's were terribly power hungry, bandwidth limited products - regardless of whether you had their active equalizer box in series with the signal or not. Dave D is right that their portability is what sold them, but every group I personally knew that owned them couldn't wait to get their hands on better sounding, more efficient, rigs. Pushed hard, 802's and 302 subs simply crumble sonically - every time. While I do agree that 802's have their place, to say that they blew the doors off of other "established" pro audio products is just not so. Respectfully, |
I respectfully have to disagree. Where were the Northwest JBLs? Nowhere where I was! I disagree that those Bose were bandwidth-limited, except at the very extremes of the frequency-range. What about the "competition" at the time? (except the Really, Really Good Stuff, rarely seen and heard). They were the ghastly boxes otherwise found at most Bose 802/302– sized gigs... They were multiply peaky, with really uneven dispersions... and they sounded even worse up close. Whereas the Bose were smooth, with good dispersions, and ... still sounded good up-close! And, remember, with the controllers being out of circuit — the Bose are not a system without them, it does no good to a discussion to mention that...
I also disagree about power. Give them better and more powerful amps than the admittedly not very good Bose amps, and they were brilliant. Still are in some applications.
Sure, better products have come along along, and the 802s, especially on their own, were not idiot-proof; forget bass transients with no subs.
I stick with my claim quoted above.
The 'Bose' gigs I went to were so much better than almost all others, that that fact eventually sunk into my gigged brian. Before I stated engineering. They sounded so much better, especially the vocal/acoustic guitar, jazz bands, and decent rock bands. I had no issues, no prejudices, I just noted what I heard — gigs that sounded close to the expensive home systems I heard, at last! So I started using Boses, then later on, other and better things. Even now, sometimes the Bose still suit some applications. They are tools, applicable as are all other tools, to situations that suit. Would I buy them now? No. That wasn't the point of my comments.
And are there better things now? Of course!
Post by: Anthony Robinson on April 08, 2010, 05:34:49 pm
Post by: Gary Perrett on April 08, 2010, 08:29:15 pm
http://www.atlantisrockmusic.com/ formerly Escape...I've never seen Arch Allies. Done plenty of the states great bands but not them. So many good bands have folded here due to lack of places to play. The economy, the smoking ban and overzealous enforcement have closed most of the bars around here that had live music. I'll check them out! thanks..
G
Post by: Tracy Stewart on July 02, 2010, 09:43:28 pm
Post by: Ben Lagman on July 02, 2010, 10:12:52 pm
| Tracy Stewart wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 21:43 |
I have been working with pro audio for 20 plus years. I have used many types of speakers and Bose does have a place in the pro audio scheme. I have used the 802 series II and they are great for small to medium sized venues. Alot of the folks on this forum do not like bose. It depends on your use as to whether it will work for you. It is NOT accepted in the pro audio market by musicians if you are providing sound for them!! I have just purchased an L1 series 1. I do admit the B1 bass unit SUCKS. Pair this unit with a black widow 18 sub and it kicks butt. Great for dj, solo artist, gospel group, and smaller uses. Vocals are very pronounced and I really love singing with this unit. I recently scaled down my operation and no longer do sound for bands. I sold my srx-722f jbl cabinets. You cannot compare the bose to the jbl, it is simply a different animal. I do really love the versatility and size of the L1 array and do reccomend it if you are doing sound for yourself in a smaller scheme. You get alot of gain before feedback if you used a shure sm58 and use the reccomended setting in the unit. The 802 is also great for churches, gospel groups, and other small to medium size operations. You MUST run the eq with it to get the right sound. Just my .02 worth. |
Yeah, it depends on the type of application it's used for. For most part IMO (now, after I learned more about it), I think it's just over marketed, over rated, speakers. Sure they sound great, but they are wimpy. I mean, I doubt they can get up to 126 dB, which can be easily beaten with most speakers now on the market. There are far superior quality speakers out there, that can get louder, and are just better all around. I guess it depends on how you use it. Another thing about it that I don't like about it is, you can't change the volume of each individual woofer. So basically, if I do a gig, and people want to dance, a lot of the sound is bounced off of a whole crowd of people, and the ones on the bottom are at the same volume as the top.
Also, not to be rude by all means, but this post was made in the very beginning of April...
Post by: Eddie Czubinski on July 02, 2010, 11:18:15 pm
"no highs no lows must be Bose"
I agree with it, but thats just my opinion.
Post by: Guy Johnson on July 03, 2010, 06:45:35 am
| Eddie Czubinski wrote on Sat, 03 July 2010 04:18 |
Someone once told me this saying "no highs no lows must be Bose" I agree with it, but thats just my opinion. |
I totally disagree with 'it' ... I'll use Anything That Sounds Good. Period.
As mentioned earlier Bose have very useful applications. Tools are tools are tools... they need to be applied to the correct situations.
Catch-all slogans are just so inaccurate: "no highs no lows" would really apply to cheap 12/15-and-horn boxes, and the eejits who can't or won't use an 802s or 802s/302s with the correct system-controller are shall we say, eccentric? ... Music shops loved to do that to sell cheap crap to gullible customers. I used to love pointing out to these people that with the 'other bit' the 802s would piss all over the usual Pevey/H&H/Etc
Post by: Paul Bell on July 03, 2010, 10:57:28 am
http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html
Post by: John Chiara on July 03, 2010, 11:13:02 am
| Paul Bell wrote on Mon, 05 April 2010 21:59 |
I had met Amar years ago and he didn’t like the line of questioning I had for him and he stopped taking my questions. When they first “developed” a remote control, they sent somebody out to buy a universal remote. They opened it up, copied it and made their own. They closed up the one they bought and returned it for a refund. They vigorously sue anybody using what they claim is their ideas. The sixth order bandpass sub is one that comes to mind. You can keep your Bose. |
That line of rationale and litigation....normal cult routine.
Post by: Eddie Czubinski on July 03, 2010, 12:50:01 pm
edit: typo
Post by: Paul Bell on July 03, 2010, 01:12:02 pm
A few weeks ago, I did sound for a yearly street festival. It was non stop Latin bands, mostly very amateurish. While during each band’s setup, many oddly un-plugged from our DI boxes and went direct, one act came on with a Bose stick system with a little Behringer mixer on it and after unplugging from us, plugged into it. Halfway through their first song, we were frantically un-plugging from it and swapping back to our DI & snake. This speaker and what it did was a flat out joke and embarrassment. Guess who it made look bad? Of course, everybody blamed the sound company, me. Nice. A properly and well setup and tuned BASSMAXX/McCauley/QSC/Ashly/APB PA system and these idiots figured their crappy Bose system was better and they knew better than us.
I can’t fathom what would move otherwise intelligent people to be duped into buying such worthless garbage. They need to have their heads examined.
Post by: Chris Boschen Leonard on July 03, 2010, 01:20:29 pm
I've heard the L1 sticks in a variety of settings, with different program material, and I haven't been very impressed. They are about enough for a small jazz band in a decent room with 150 peeps, in my opinion. They would probably be great for a classroom setting, or on corporate stuff that was vox only. Every time I've seen them in larger settings with a band, they were being pushed, and you could hear it.
The main reason I dislike bose, however, is for their habit of using totally proprietary connectors and setups for their consumer gear. Anyone who has had to integrate these systems into a larger audio setup knows what crap they are. From my look at the L1s, it would appear bose is still following that model. And while I have used some bose gear that works well, it's in the minority, and that gear was never a part of the pro audio market.
Spend your money on some real speaker boxes and amps--there are plenty of excellent combos that simply smoke the L1s for less money.
Post by: Bob Leonard on July 03, 2010, 01:51:27 pm
| Guy Johnson wrote on Sat, 03 July 2010 06:45 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I totally disagree with 'it' ... I'll use Anything That Sounds Good. Period. As mentioned earlier Bose have very useful applications. Tools are tools are tools... they need to be applied to the correct situations. Catch-all slogans are just so inaccurate: "no highs no lows" would really apply to cheap 12/15-and-horn boxes, and the eejits who can't or won't use an 802s or 802s/302s with the correct system-controller are shall we say, eccentric? ... Music shops loved to do that to sell cheap crap to gullible customers. I used to love pointing out to these people that with the 'other bit' the 802s would piss all over the usual Pevey/H&H/Etc Post by: Guy Johnson on July 03, 2010, 03:51:52 pm
Yep. You are wrong. Like most sound systems today, the speakers and the controller are an integral part of the system: No controller, no system. Simple. Post by: Guy Johnson on July 03, 2010, 04:31:47 pm
Not sure you got my point ... Bose make products that do a very good job in some gigs . All I'm saying is that: 1) Bose gear sounds great in the right environment, same with any decent technology, which is more than cheap gear does. 2) All I care about is good sound in gigs, and if Bose is a good tool for the job, what's the problem? 3) You may well have done loads of stuff with, and hate Bose gear. Maybe it is because it's used in the wrong environment. I don't know. All I know is that in the right environment Bose make very good gear that's muso and amateur (as well as pro) friendly over the years that has helped improve live sound ... and ... surprise ... So Have May Other gear-makers, who compete in our weird world of audio in rooms. Which improves gigs from tiny to big. 4) If I come across something that kicks the "shit out of Bose", I'll use it. But in many environments, Bose gear, like it or not, performs brilliantly and easily for many bands, promotors and gigs, from grass-roots and those gigs and events that don't need the correct (non-Bose) gear to produce the right sounds... BTW, I don't have any Bose stuff at the moment — and because I defend a product against unscientific prejudice doesn't make it a love of my life, or make all of its products brilliant. So there. Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 03, 2010, 04:41:35 pm In every case, it has done the intended job satisfactorily. Now that being said-the particular products were chosen and used within the operating limits. Not just any 'ol cabinet used in any 'ol way and hoping it turns out well. I have not chosen or looked at any Bose product as a possible solution in the last 8 years or so. The reason has nothing to do with the product and everything to do with the dealer issues (backstabbing) of the company. We just don't want to do business with them anymore. Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on July 03, 2010, 04:52:29 pm
.... Our "local" jazz club (D'Vine) seats about 100 +/-, and I dare say the BOSE stick is "OK" in that situation. It's usually just for some vocals. When I go, I go for the music, and ignore the critical listening part. Post by: Joe Tranchina on July 03, 2010, 05:27:27 pm Post by: Dan Brown on July 03, 2010, 07:32:07 pm
I have heard the K-Array KR200S We heard it with the single 18 sub and powered and processed via the sub? it sounded good for more acoustic music and pop. harder music seemed to tax the drivers in the KR200 but if you used it for corporate events and or acoustic show it would be great and take of very little room db Post by: Eddie Czubinski on July 03, 2010, 11:18:46 pm
Maybe you could tell me what the controller does. I am sort of wondering what kind of processing it does to the sound. Post by: Greg Cameron on July 04, 2010, 03:32:00 am
Speaker controllers (also referred to as DSP or speaker processors) provide crossover, EQ, delay, and limiting functions for their basic operation. Some have extra bells and whistles, but all posses those primary functions. Greg Post by: Tim Padrick on July 06, 2010, 02:17:27 am 
Post by: Guy Johnson on July 06, 2010, 12:52:45 pm  [/ot] Sorry to hear about the Bose Corporation being a PITA to some. After liking those Sticks, I'm going to see if I can hire some in my area for a few gigs, see how they fare. Only way to do it is to try them. My gigs tend to be acoustic/unplugged style and some bigband, plus the odd rock and reggae show; I swerve the battles of the bands and metal; I'd rather do almost anything else ... 
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 06, 2010, 01:10:05 pm
You got a world class burger with a fine selection of brew and you're bitching about the restaurant sound system? That's a real sound guy, right there.... :-) Post by: Bob Morein on July 06, 2010, 07:13:12 pm You claim the 802 series is junk and "is all in the hands of professionals". Clearly all of these PROFESSIONALS know and hear much better than YOU do. Pros would never use something that didn't sound as good as they could make it. You're just another in the sad old Bose bashers that can't stand that your disproven, but preconceived notions of how to do audio have been shattered by Bose science. Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 06, 2010, 07:27:26 pm
Out of curiosity, Mr. 1st Post, who the heck are you and what are your credentials that should cause us to give weight to what your very strong opinion? Professionals use whatever the gig calls for. Sometimes they get to spec a system, often they are called to apply their professional talents to whatever situation they walk into. The definition of a pro is making the show go with whatever circumstances are present - not somone who happens to have a gig where they get to go shopping for whatever they want, though that is certainly a nice perk. Post by: Jay Barracato on July 06, 2010, 07:47:07 pm
Try a google search on the name. Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 06, 2010, 07:56:11 pm
Oh oh... "shattered by Bose science..." that sounds almost poetic. Do you have something factual to comment about.. It's bad internet etiquette to make an unfounded ad hominum attack against an established regular, even if he is a flaming PIA. (I can say that... you can't). Bose has a place in sound reproduction, just not everyplace, every time, for everything. They have been around a long time and their strengths and weaknesses are well known to professionals. Marketing is one of their strengths. JR PS: Bose 802?? Isn't that just the 901 hifi speaker re-purposed to sell into a different market by turning it around backwards and loading in one less driver? PPS: Bob was probably visiting the house on the hill that Amar built, to service their computer system. I doubt he chats with the customer service lads enough to be on a first name basis. Post by: Mac Kerr on July 06, 2010, 08:02:53 pm
Mr. Morein is a long time troll of internet groups and forums. His name should be familiar to anyone who has been around for a while. Fortunately this is a moderated forum and we can nip it in the bud. Bu bye. Mac Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on July 06, 2010, 10:02:01 pm
Post by: Greg Cameron on July 06, 2010, 10:12:42 pm Greg Post by: Mac Kerr on July 06, 2010, 10:38:42 pm
It's not much trouble to do a simple search, which puts the IP address with a Utah hosting company. It is too much trouble to take it farther. Mr. Morein has been a long time problem on the Internet, and he is gone from here. While I haven't seen the name in a few years, I recognized it instantly from many years of abuse on Usenet. Mac Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on July 07, 2010, 12:26:21 am Post by: Mac Kerr on July 07, 2010, 11:43:35 am
I did no such thing. He put that homepage in himself. That is typical of his behavior over the past 10 years or so on many forums and groups. There is no need for further discussion about this particular poster. Mac Post by: Bill Burford on July 07, 2010, 12:04:37 pm I know this will never ever happen, but I wish someone could just run all those room tests and frequency response / distortion charts for a bose. It would be nice to test it from at least 20 feet away ( I have no idea how those tests are performed ) and compare the frequency / SPL chart from those BOSE to a 10 inch behringer. I HAVE put a 10 inch powered behringer speaker on a pole and ran the matrix output through an aux send in the snake to it. Just one behringer powered 10 with tiny hf molded horn eclipsed a pair of Bose 802's. it also allowed for the sweepable mids to become useful. IT ALSO allowed for a kick mic to become useful.. as well as bass DI. This result shouldn't have shocked me but it did. I think the size of the 802 cabinets and their aesthetic value had possibly caused me to think the result wouldn't be so dramatic. Post by: Bill Burford on July 07, 2010, 12:46:54 pm I just looked at an L1 ad in a magazine. There is a picture of a guy who looks like he wishes he was "Dave".. "to ensure peak concert experience, professional sound companies depend on line array systems for wide, even coverage. The self-powered L1 gives you all that and more...." then they show you with the speaker grill removed and each of the 12 two inch speakers is aimed in a different direction. .... wouldn't that cause phase issues? Post by: Paul O'Brien on July 07, 2010, 01:06:37 pm
OK.. you asked for it. In my not so humble opinion Bose has always produced overpriced and underperforming products that sound acceptable at best when deployed appropriately at an event for which they are somewhat suitable. I have never heard any Bose speaker produce exceptional sound and their "subs" are just plain aweful, the popular "No highs, No lows" description that seems to dog this brand is well earned and very appropriate, if you don't think so keep reading. The only usefull specs you will get from Bose will be found on their "Professional Products" web page, where the MA12(half an L1 tower) has specs of 155hz-12khz(-3db) and a max calculated output of 113db. Interestingly they also provide polar plots that clearly contradict their own PR that claims 180deg coverage over the whole audio spectrum from the L1 system. I got no data on the old 901/802 series but Crown produced an PIP module designed to simulate the Bose processor that included a 15db boost at 60hz and a massive 20db boost at 10.5khz.
I don't think they are worth the $$ and think you could get as good or better results from a pair of quality powered PA cabs.. QSC KW112 for example. If you need subs you'll get far better performance and value from a traditional powered reflex cab than you will from the pathetic B1 modules. Post by: Ned Ward on July 07, 2010, 05:01:44 pm as well as 3 different pedalboards, 2 100 watt Johnson amps, 2 Line 6 Vetta amps with KSM44's on all 4 through a very loud and well tuned PA... the L1's may have been more for his synth sounds and monitoring for the band, but damn, the Twang Bar King can play! Post by: Bob Leonard on July 08, 2010, 01:51:28 am
John, Correct on both. You can call me a pain in the ass any time you feel the need, and most of the time I am at the house on the hill for their systems. However, that always makes for an adventure. I always get a good look at, and my hands on the products, topped with a heaping dose of Bose marketing. Bose people are passionate and always nice. Some I see every time I go, others I meet and never see again. I've never heard of the person who responded to my post although it appears Mac has. He got one thing right though. He called me Mr. Leonard. Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 08, 2010, 08:13:52 pm The following was written by Steve Miller. The two towers and four subs worked very well, I was able to unpack it and set it up and start working with it in a matter of minutes. I used them in a broad range of applications and found it to be just the ticket for clear low sound pressure music in all the different venues I performed in. We broke all the rules on some shows and followed them carefully on others. For example in one semi out door venue for two hundred people, I set up a Texas road house Blue grass group I invited to "test" the system. I set them up as follows: Two acoustic guitars Electric bass direct violin Direct mandolin A Steinway D grand piano, miked Two vocal mikes I used two towers and four subs, I kept the volumes rather low and amazingly it sounded beautiful and impressed my audience and my sound man, (he does monitors for Pavarotti and is a seriously great sound man ) The musicians all walked in with out any sound check, plugged in and started playing easily, no hearing problems, they forgot all about it and did a beautiful set. During their performance I was able to walk the entire venue, inside and outside continually during the performance. The sound in the venue was warm, very acoustic, very full and I experienced the "weird" sensation of hearing a pleasant, beautifully played acoustic performance, (I could hear every instrument and voice clearly) while being un aware of any sound re enforcement. Very cool! The audience body language was amazing, very relaxed and comfortable. We have a seventy thousand dollar tuned system in that venue that we normally use, the Bose was a very impressive alternative, it sounded great and was set up by me in a matter of minutes and left alone for the entire performance. Performance number one and I was off to a great start. Nice work you guys. Next I played a terrible indoor venue, a loud bar with a horrible stage with a huge red wood tree running up through the ceiling, and a small cave on stage left (honestly) and a room full of glass and cement that always sounds way too loud and terrible and in that one I broke the rules again and used: Two electric guitars direct, no pre amps Electric bass Electric piano Poorly miked drums Three vocal mikes It was a hot electric blues band. Once again the audience was completely relaxed, instead of the usual shouting, and you could hear everything, everywhere. I played a few tunes with this group and it was clear we needed more towers, I could clip the system easily, I walked around the entire venue as well and I talked to a lot of people during the performance and we were all amazed. I could only suggest what it would sound like with more systems. Next I played an out door venue for about 200 people. Joe Satriani played through my Emery amp which we miked I played acoustic guitar direct Drums and Direct electric bass. And one direct vocal mike. This was a great set, great results happy musicians and audience All in all I played eight shows of my fifteen performances with the towers. I was at a 17 day long music camp that has over fifty different venues and we had many different performances going on in close proximity and the response was overwhelming positive and enthusiastic from both musicians and audience and importantly the other venues and neighbors. I'm sure you are going to get orders for systems from musicians and different camps soon. My next step is I want to try a full system as its truly designed in Seattle on August 22 at Mary Moor Park where I will be playing with the Steve Miller Band at a benefit for NOAH. I want to see if I can use the system on stage as my monitor system for the band and as front fill, and tie it in with the house system. This is a mid size venue smaller than we usually play, about 5000 will attend but it is out doors on a larger stage that is closer to what I normally work on, 60' X 40' feet. I've picked this venue because they have a great crew and we can fool around with it in the afternoon with out causing too much pre show stress, if it works I'll use it that night for the show. I'm very impressed with what you guys have designed and want to see if it will work for my band on a large out door shed stage as a monitor system. After developing in ear monitors for the last 14 years I think this should work much better from a playing stand point. Thanks for all your hard work. I am very impressed with the thought process that has gone into making this system work so smartly and simply and the R & D you guys have done is greatly appreciated and beautifully thought out. After setting it up, playing in a lot of different venues with different musicians and tearing it down and physically carrying it around for 17 days on my musical vacation I am convinced this is a great system and I haven't even heard it used as its designed to be used yet. Please pass my thanks to your entire team for doing such a great job, they deserve it! Steve Miller http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1506041054/m/16010 8276?r=392104376#392104376 Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 08, 2010, 09:17:58 pm Actually that's some pretty good writing. He could probably write ad copy for sharper image if his albums aren't selling. JR Post by: Pat Latimer on July 08, 2010, 09:49:22 pm
Wonder how much BLOSE paid him to say that load of crap? IMHO. Pat Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 09, 2010, 12:38:33 am
If you follow the link which was included in my original post you will see the following statement. "Below is the unsolicited email sent by Steve to us a few days ago talking about his first few weeks with his systems, most of which it is my understanding was spent at a well-known music camp where he serves on the faculty. Please keep in mind that Bose does not have an artist endorsement program. Mr. Miller, like each of you, purchased and is commenting on the system with no strings attached." Below is a photo of the Steve Miller Band. Two L1 systems are visible in this photo. Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 09, 2010, 12:40:53 am http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGXXFWZsp-0 Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on July 09, 2010, 02:07:31 am
You are correct that Bose does not admit to a traditional endorsement program. But they are privately held. Amazing what can - and is - accomplished sub rosa. Many here admit (at least) that Bose manages to market themselves beyond their ability. They are free to describe themselves as "leading manufacturers of speakers for the... and pro audio markets." Our mission (if I may presume) is to prevent rubes from buying into the false promise, paying far too much, and getting mediocre results. And sometimes admit (as I have) examples where that particular product did not badly annoy me. As for the video? Bose onstage? Just ask yourself "self, why are those things on that stage?" Those "conventional" monitors are just for show, right? And the hangs? (video is Crawford County fair BTW). Take a wider look at the scale of that particular fair: Just another example of trying to mislead rubes. In any case the "letter" is from 2004, the video 2006. There is little (actually none) in the way of contemporaneous evidence that anyone is actually getting useful results in the stated "professional markets," none on any semi-pro or pro level. $1,000 (starting for the compact system) for a BOM of about $80 is a travesty. How many folks are removed from the pool of purchasers for equipment from legitimate providers? Post by: Paul Bell on July 09, 2010, 07:26:34 am In the install market here in NYC, I’ve done a lot of work with Bose-REMOVING THEM and replacing them with something better. Bose products, except for the most basic home use, are junk. The do not belong in professional use doing PA or live band monitor usage. Even in the consumer/home market, there are better products that have better performance and quality at lower cost. Post by: Bob Leonard on July 09, 2010, 09:55:19 am And yes Virginia, I have seen more than my share of Bose in Framingham and note that the building is full of experienced and well schooled engineers and sales people, but schooled in the Bose method. I'll suggest that the space cowboy may be using the L1s for something other than reinforcement. Common sense tells you they will be hard pressed to keep up with the array, or even some of the guitar amps on stage. Maybe some acoustic thing he does. I mentioned professionals using this hardware previously. Let me clarify. The professionals using the hardware did not own that hardware, and as many of us have found, were religated to using the system without choice. Most managed to obtain usable sound, but there were exceptions when that was not the case regardless of effort. My opinion is that Bose, having found a formula that literally softens the assault on a humans ears, continues to employ that concept through their product line. No chest pounding bass, no extreme highs, just a sound that is not offensive at any particular frequency and which appeals to the masses. I would venture to guess that 50 Bose radios on stage all tuned to the same station might do the same job as an L1. All that being said the white systems are perfect for a church. Post by: Tom Reid on July 09, 2010, 10:09:47 am I have a permanent taste in my mouth from Bose stuff. It has to do with payola, a CFO, and a traditional JBL/EV shop. And that's even before the point of people asking "what do they sound like"? Tools are tools. While some of us can fix anything with robogrips, most prefer a ratchet set. Post by: Bill Burford on July 09, 2010, 11:57:16 am offensive sound? I love chest thumping bass. put it this way, I'm having a hard time swallowing the fact that this is the same forum that gets so critical about subwoofer deployment, sub-amp-choices, sub-choices, whether or not you should run amps bridge-mono or old-iron vs switching.. etc. Would you rather have two L1 systems on either side of your 56" HD plasma TV running in hi-fi, or even 7 L1 systems in your movie-room hooked up to a dolby processor??? Or would you rather have a bunch of jbl studio monitors and a powered studio sub??? which system would you rather have to watch the latest blu-ray on? Post by: Guy Johnson on July 09, 2010, 02:19:44 pm Reminds me of Mac vs. PC thread. Mac's best, btw... *Monty Python quote Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on July 09, 2010, 03:40:13 pm
No - it isn't that at all. No one reading this should dismiss this discussion as being brand like or dislike. It's just this: - Are the merits of the product as they claim? - Are they promising optimistic performance expectations? - Are there superior options for the same cost? And it's the same discussion for every manufacturer - from Monster to Meyer. FWIW - I fly with Bose aviation headsets and have home speakers from them. Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 09, 2010, 04:31:39 pm
It depends on the particular church and the acoustics and their worship style. In case you haven't been lately-there are churches that run the fll range from traditional to full on rock and roll with light and video shows that would make just about any band happy and with pounding lows and yes they still worship the almighty kick drum .The only time that a Bose "White system" is proper is one in which the needs of the service dictate it. Some do-some do not. Post by: Caleb Dick on July 09, 2010, 04:52:16 pm
+1 to what Ivan said. Churches, and the bands playing therein, have changed a LOT in the past couple decades. I'll be happy to show you a few of our clients' systems, and let you decide if a Bose anything would meet their usage needs. Caleb Post by: Guy Johnson on July 09, 2010, 05:45:40 pm Over here I'm used to an organ providing the music for the choir and congregation (Anything else to me is Deeply Weird) when I was at school, and went to church, that is! And I imagine the Orthodox churches with voices only find any music in a church Deeply Weird. Do most churches in America do the amplified band thing? Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 09, 2010, 06:31:55 pm
I would venture to say that at least in the southeastern US the answer is yes. Probably 90% of our installs include subs and usually 24 channels and often a good bit more for the console. The most # channels we have installed in a church was 120 just for the main console. Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 09, 2010, 06:34:58 pm The levels were running around 105-108dB C weighted at FOH. Post by: Brian Jojade on July 09, 2010, 06:44:38 pm Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 09, 2010, 07:41:50 pm Excerpt from the April issue of Premier Guitar Magazine: "The third thing I use is the Bose L1 setup. In fact, I have two of them, and they are the towers you see. The technology is incredible. How they make this happen I don’t know, but I went to the Bose factory and they demonstrated it for me. It has a different kind of dispersion than anything else. If you stand in front of a guitar amp and move two feet to the right, you’ll get a slightly different sound. If you move to the back of the room, you’ll get a totally different sound. Not true with the Bose L1. It has a 360 degree dispersion, and they do truly sound about the same anywhere you are in the whole room. You can walk up to them while you’re playing, and they don’t get louder —they’re the same as when you were 40 feet away. I use them because they’re a high-end product. I use them for their great fidelity, because I do use guitar synthesizer. I do play my guitar through a keyboard. I make loops, which the band then plays to. All those things come through the Bose L1s. It’s especially good in the looping area because the band can hear it really well. They no longer need to have so much extra monitoring or anything. They can hear it just coming out of my guitar rig." - Adrian Belew Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on July 09, 2010, 08:05:36 pm
- It's a guitar extension speaker! And a synthesizer speaker! And it breaks those pesky, immutable laws of physics! This has what to do with PA? Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 09, 2010, 08:20:49 pm
Posting marketing copy is typically done to make fun of it. If you are trying to be funny please post this in the basement. A call to authority from one guitar player to another, about sound reinforcement is better left in the guitar rags. No offense to Adrian, I would never attempt to give him advice about guitars. JR PS I actually saw King Crimson in concert back in the '60s, good show. Post by: Bob Leonard on July 09, 2010, 09:22:44 pm
As percieved by Bose Bill, not by me. Post by: Andy Peters on July 09, 2010, 09:50:13 pm
He's playing his guitar through the Bose things which are used for his stage sound. I assume as well that there are feeds to FOH from his rig, and nowhere does the blurb mention that he's using this system for vocal monitoring. -a Post by: Kevin Maxwell AKA TheMAXX on July 10, 2010, 12:59:57 am
I am not really responding to Andy it just seemed like a logical place to put this and to share my experience at the end of this about the L1 speakers I was going to stay out of this but I can’t. I am not a fan of Bose in general because of what I have experienced over the years (with the years very spread out) so keep that in mind. I first heard Bose 800 speakers used a few times with a group and I distinctly remember the last time they had 4 stacked on top of each other per side and they used the Bose amp. It was loud and not a pleasant sound. They were harsh to me. I next heard a group use (I think they were the 802 model) 1 per side on stands in a 250-seat room, they were using a crown amp and it actually sounded pretty good. They didn’t have the rip your head off sound of the stack of 4. The external speakers (8” & tweeter) I have hooked up for my TV sound are a pair of Syncom “engineered by Bose” speakers that I bought for a project in a church that never got done and I bought them off of them for my TV sound. They are wooden boxes and I have replaced the 8” when the foam surround on them rotted away and replaced the 8” with eminence drivers. I look at this as the “shoemaker’s kids” syndrome. Its better then the built in TV speakers but not by a lot. I have been doing some musicals in a school that has a Bose sound system with 6 (I think they are 402) speakers. The short story is we use the 3 delay speakers hung from the ceiling to the rear of the room. Due to the way they are set up I can’t use the Bose EQ so I make up for that in my DSP. The old no highs etc. saying definitely can apply if you don’t compensate in the EQ. These work ok for delay speakers but not great. I should post the EQ curve I have to use on these. Has anyone ever done a Smaart trace of their EQ unit. They also have a Bose sub (I don’t know the model) that is mounted on the proscenium wall up high and it definitely helps with the low end but I also process that with the DSP I am using for the rest of the system. I was doing sound in a venue that had a group come in that had 2 of the towers. When they saw that we were already set up they used our system. Someone mentioned using one of their towers as a monitor aimed back at the band. So after we got everything set up we tried their tower. We couldn’t get hardly any usable gain before feed back with it. So we turned it down so low you couldn’t even hear it over the monitors. I don’t know how these things could get loud enough to use when put behind the mics. Post by: Eddie Czubinski on July 10, 2010, 01:20:28 am
Agreed their are much better products out their. I especially don't like when Bose speakers are used without subs. I have seen it happen a lot. We have Bose in my schools auditorium and during a talent show one of the bands was loud enough to get the amp hot enough to overheat the amp which caused it to go into a thermal protection mode. This caused are mains to drop out I think they are Klipsch from back when they made PA speakers and when that happened all of the bass was gone we still had the Bose going but their was no bottom end. They were installed without subs and I have no idea why. The Bose speakers are Panaray 502A Edit: added type of Bose speakers Post by: Guy Johnson on July 10, 2010, 07:23:41 am Post by: John Norris on July 10, 2010, 12:26:03 pm
Amplified bands in churches are a fairly recent phenomena in the US, Guy, except for the old-style African-American gospel sound, epitomized by the Staples Singers, which has been doing drums, electric bass, electric guitar, and keyboards for decades, but the African-American trad. gospel sound emphasizes vocals, especially chorus, and the instruments thenselves are not cranked. (The new African-American "gospel drum" style, however, is loud drum mania.) The recent mega-church style of loud "praise" music is similar to generic '80s rock power ballads - "The Search is Over" by Survivor, for example - except that, in these new praise paens, the chick is replaced by Jesus. Post by: Andy Peters on July 10, 2010, 05:25:22 pm
The "South Park" episode where Cartman formed his Christian rock band Faith Plus One made that point crystal clear. Oh, yeah, power ballads suck. I mean, there's no reason for them to exist. -a Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 10, 2010, 06:44:03 pm
Sure there is-to sell records to the girls And the guys like them because the girls do.It's not always about the music-sometimes you have to eat and pay the rent
Post by: Tim Padrick on July 10, 2010, 06:46:31 pm
Peace and quiet - a favorite eatery Good sound - another eatery on the list Too loud or crap sound - I'm not going back Post by: Charlie Zureki on July 10, 2010, 08:22:39 pm
Hello, Most people's hearing is affected when they're eating anyway. So...enjoy the Burger & Beer and save the listening for a real club. Hammer Post by: Charlie Zureki on July 10, 2010, 08:27:22 pm
Motion Pictures of the early years of the past decade wouldn't have had a sound track without Power Ballads... Hammer Post by: Andy Peters on July 11, 2010, 06:38:44 pm
You say that like it's a bad thing. -a Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 11, 2010, 10:18:02 pm "The entire band is on PMs with the exception of Rundgren, and here is where the system really starts to get wacky. "I needed something that could do five stereo mixes," notes Frazza by way of introduction. So there are plenty of choices out there, but Frazza chose none of the usual suspects because of Rundgren's next edict. "It needed to be small with a tiny footprint. This tour is out with one bus and a trailer, and we carry everything except front of house speakers." The need for compactness mixed with Todd's dislike of PMs meant that Robert chose a Roland V-Mixing system to drive the monitors. This small digital board-again designed with the home studio in mind-gives Frazza all of the mixes he needs and takes up very little space, and does it for a lot less money than a traditional monitor console. But it is his choice of monitor speakers that is truly inspired-a pair of Bose L1 towers matched with a couple of B1 subs. Bose's marketing for this system is that everyone in the band has one and together they "become" the sound system-and Frazza says the folks at Bose were pretty horrified at his idea and tried to talk him out of it "right up until the day before the tour." They shouldn't have worried, as the system provides some of the most even stage coverage I have every heard. I walked the stage during soundcheck and was amazed at how consistent and even the coverage was. As the L1 is a wide-dispersion device, they serve a dual purpose. "Shows where everything is direct and everyone is on PMs can be a problem," says Frazza. "The quiet stage is nice, but there can be a big hole in the middle of the room near the stage." Frazza uses the edges of the L1 pattern to fill that hole instead off-setting-up (and carrying) front fills, and the L1 system is ultra compact, taking far less space than the usual contingent of floor wedges. Plus, as they are self-powered, there is no monitor amp rack, either." http://www.robertfrazza.com/FOHtrCobbledTogether.html Post by: Lee Brenkman on July 11, 2010, 10:43:14 pm
That may all be true at the time of the writing of this article in FOH but the last two times Todd Rundgren has appeared at the venues where I schedule the local sound crews there has been no Bose equipment anywhere on the stage. Just sayin'. Post by: Caleb Dick on July 11, 2010, 11:37:27 pm
Even if true, so what? The Bose sticks supposedly are the PA and monitor in one. If the musicians plug into a real PA, it defeats the marketing hype. Even worse for Bose, it shows how crappy their 'long throw line array' concept is. I still remember being told, "You know way too much about audio. If you would forget everything you know, I could make you into a very successful Bose salesman.". That same person, when trying to close a multimillion dollar deal, told the client he knows nothing about audio. All they needed to do was trust the name of Bose. And that person wonders why all their largest clients are walking (some to me). If anyone out there has a secret fetish for long Bose poles, that's your issue. I don't care, all I ask is keep it hidden. Caleb Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on July 12, 2010, 01:13:50 am It's all a decent bit of viral marketing. They all "visited" the factory! And there are a small number of folks (like Mr. Lunceford) who repost the limited, dated, "first-person" accounts by aging "names," who don't actually use what's being offered in the manner it's sold to the masses. A good contrast: Zildjian - a pioneer in factory visits since the 30s has been very effective working with artists. - Zildjian is above board about it. - The input Zildjian solicits often finds its way into products - The "visitors" and endorsers actually use the products, in the manner as they are marketed, long-term. - TOPIC SWERVE: Bose is a litigation machine. Schuler and his ilk (like the firms used by Monster) are a reminder of why so many are jaded about lawyers. The kick-gate patent filing from Bose Corporation - (20080197884)? Talk about a bald-face appropriation of prior art. Many patents (like the infamous "Amazon one-click" patent - subsequently - but only partially eviscerated), prove to be more "art" than innovation. The Bose filing is just insulting. If anyone is interested, the US PTO always considers input from knowledgeable professionals who have employed similar techniques, successfully, as those described in patent applications, prior to the filing date of the application. Patent examiners are just regular folks who do want to make the right decisions that foster innovation, and protect against specious filings.
That application is currently under review as far as I know. For those that are interested, I can let you know where you may direct your comments. Edit - The patent application is dated : February 16, 2007 Post by: Andy Peters on July 12, 2010, 01:27:31 am
I met Robert last year when we came through the venue he handles in Woodstock and he's a great dude. It's likely that the Bose things worked well enough for the situation at hand, and based on photos on his web site, it appears as if they are gone from the stage. -a (edit: eliminate redundancy) Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 12, 2010, 01:32:31 am The Meyer Sound MILO won the award but Bose was in good company with the likes of Meyer, EAW, Community, Martin Audio & SLS http://tecfoundation.com/tec/04nominees.html Sound Reinforcement Loudspeaker Technology WINNER Meyer Sound MILO: This high-power curvilinear array is a four-way, self-powered system with nearly 4,000W of onboard amplifier power, and Meyer Sound’s proprietary complex crossover, protection and monitoring circuitry. Patent-pending QuickFly Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on July 12, 2010, 01:36:52 am Viral marketing - And there are a small number of folks (like Mr. Lunceford) who repost .. Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 12, 2010, 01:41:31 am
Bose.. it is, indeed a virus. Mr. Lunceford is showing signs of infection. Post by: Robert Lunceford on July 12, 2010, 01:57:31 am
If any of us are unfortunate enough to get a serious virus, we may owe Bose Corporation thanks for their contributions to life saving technologies. http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/enduratec/index.jsp Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on July 12, 2010, 02:44:28 am You should receive an email from Bose marketing in the morning (assuming your Nor'east location - let's just assume about noon EDT for now). Either 1 or 2: #1:
or #2:
Post by: Guy Johnson on July 12, 2010, 08:54:47 am There seem to be people who are Con Bose for nearly everything. It seems to me that being overly for a product is just as crazy as being overly against one. When this is then applied to a whole brand, I'm starting to wonder what planet some people are on! When hearing gear in any environment, it doesn't matter what kind of marketing a company does, or what their corporate ethics are, or their published nitty-gritty performance figures are, or the fact that other sound gear is present ... All that matters in terms of sound in any place is ... the sound. Nothing else. Ok, if someone has problems with their relationship with a maker, and won't use their products. Understandable, they can use something else. Or they may not like to use deeply unfashionable gear/technologies. Again, they can use something else. Or they have a genuine dislike* of a product, and use another. In other words this thread seems to be mostly ping-ponging around the loving and the hating, as though all the rest of the world of sound-gear is almost irrelevant. Is this a good time to stop, I wonder ?? *I, for instance cannot stand the sound of NS10s powered by Quad amps, especially with poor and long speaker cables. Brittle, undefined compressed sound to me. But, many will disagree and happily use that combo. I won't use them ... doesn't make them bad for everyone else. Post by: John Roberts {JR} on July 12, 2010, 10:17:20 am
Yes if you have proof of prior art and the claims haven't been approved yet, but are still in the review process, anyone can submit affidavits to the file for consideration. One contradictory citation from you should be enough to kill a claim. but the standards of proof will be similar to those needed for the original inventor. If the application was filed over 3 years ago, I would expect it to be in the latter stages of review. My last one took less than 3 years to issue, but I hear they have slowed down again. I'm pleased to learn the examiners are "regular", I always thought they were "wet behind the ears", young pukes, getting a couple years of OJT on the tax payers dime, so they could then move across the street and hang out their patent lawyer shingle to charge inventors the big bux. arghhh. Note: if the patent has already issued, you can submit contradictory evidence, but the file will not be reopened for review unless there is a formal challenge (i.e. somebody must file legal papers, pay additional fees, and prove it's invalid). The patent office has recently tried to get more input from the public to critique pending applications. AFAIK the response from the public has been underwhelming. I know I'm too busy to look at a never ending stream of mind numbing inventions (the majority issued are lame, the ones rejected are surely worse). I just got a call from a patent trial lawyer (last friday), and his "expert" EE about a pending infringement case over one of my old patents. When these things go to court the costs really ratchet up. Glad I'm not paying the bills for this one. JR PS: Mr Lunceford seems at risk of violating copyright laws, as I would expect Bose to have protected their ad copy. There is no rule about individuals expressing their love for a brand but this seems to be a little more virulent than normal. Post by: Tracy Stewart on July 22, 2010, 10:50:05 pm
Post by: Jordan Wolf on July 23, 2010, 12:57:08 am I am glad that you are satisfied with the results it gives you and that it meets your requirements. Enjoy using it and be confident that you made the right choice for your situation. Don't push it too hard and make sure the AC power is good; it should last you a good while. Post by: Chris Davis on July 23, 2010, 03:13:58 am
Amidst all the activity, it seems Mr. Munceford is trying to tell us a story... Infected men do tell tales. Poor soul. If we pay attention maybe he will tell us a tale.
For some reason I don't see Siemens, Philips, or GE Healthcare shaking in their boots.
Anyone else notice the "linear motor" part in there??
 And now: presenting the Booze BT-7 Twisted Horn Gig-box (with optional gnarly Beech tree cabinetry)
Oh yeah, and the writeup:
Nahhhhhh |